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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Jaycee Dugard Goes Public; Dr. Oz to the Rescue?

Aired October 14, 2009 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, kidnap survivor Jaycee Dugard goes public with the first photo after her 18 year nightmare of living in squalor and bearing two children by the man charged with kidnapping and raping her. She lets us in on how she's doing, giving desperate families of other missing children hope.

Plus, Oprah favorite Dr. Mehmet Oz -- he's on the front lines curing the sick -- what he's doing to put a human face on the health care crisis, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

By the way, throughout the program tonight, you will notice names of missing children at the bottom of your screen. If you can help find them, call the number that you see. They'll be scrawling all night long.

We welcome J.D. Heyman. Mr. Heyman is the assistant managing editor of "People" magazine and Jaycee Dugard is the magazine's latest cover story, including exclusive photos of the kidnap survivor as she is today. There you see the cover. "People" will be out Friday.

How did you nab this?

J.D. HEYMAN, ASSISTANT MANAGING EDITOR, "PEOPLE": Well, it's been a long time in coming. We've been, you know, working with the family and reporting the story diligently. And I think the family felt that this was the time to -- to show the world that Jaycee is a beautiful and seemingly happy and positive young woman.

KING: Who went to do the story?

HEYMAN: Well, it was -- it was really a team effort. These photographs of Jaycee were -- were taken and were provided by the family. She is with her...

KING: So you didn't take them?

HEYMAN: No.

KING: Oh?

HEYMAN: No, we -- we...

KING: Has "People" ever done that before?

HEYMAN: Well, we have -- we've done many things. I mean the fa -- these photographs were a partnership, you could say. And I think that this is the way it should have been for her.

KING: So like the father took the pictures and you -- you paid them for her?

HEYMAN: No, not quite like that at all. We -- we worked with a photographer and the photographer was known to the family. And -- and it was done that way.

KING: How -- why do you think they did this?

Why you?

Why now?

HEYMAN: Well, I think that after an ordeal like this, and certainly the public speculation about Jaycee and who she is and the fact that everybody saw her as this child that was snatched off the street in the fifth grade, was it, that there was a lot of curiosity. And I think for the family, this was a way of showing the world who she was and -- and actually allowing people to -- to see that and then also maintain their privacy and Jaycee's privacy.

KING: Did the family get paid?

HEYMAN: You know, I...

KING: It's a fair question.

HEYMAN: You know, we, like any news organization, pay for photographs. We have...

KING: (INAUDIBLE).

HEYMAN: But we, we wouldn't -- you know, that's -- that's really all I can say.

KING: What is the most striking thing to you about the story?

HEYMAN: Well, the striking thing for me about the story -- and I think for anyone -- is the length of time of her absence. I mean this is an extraordinary story of somebody who was taken as a small child -- a young, young girl -- and who survived an incredible ordeal and has returned to her life. That -- that doesn't happen every day.

KING: Was she interviewed?

HEYMAN: We talked to many members of her family.

KING: But not her?

HEYMAN: No.

KING: Why do you think she wouldn't be, I mean if she's willing to have her photograph shown?

HEYMAN: Well, I think it's not an appropriate thing for -- for her to do at this point. I think the judgment of Jaycee and her family is that this -- this is as much of her as they would like the public to see. And I don't think that it would be necessarily appropriate for her to talk yet.

She's obviously cooperating with an ongoing police investigation. She is coming out of an incredible ordeal. And I think, like anyone, she -- she deserves space and sensitivity.

KING: And as we discovered from last week's "People," that had Elizabeth Smart on the cover...

HEYMAN: Correct.

KING: ...Elizabeth has to testify.

HEYMAN: That's correct.

KING: In his sanity hearing, right?

HEYMAN: Yes.

KING: She was forced to testify.

If there is a trial, Ms. Dugard is going to have to testify.

HEYMAN: That -- that would be the case.

KING: It's obvious, yes.

HEYMAN: I mean, yes. I mean she would have to come and, you know, testify against this man who allegedly, you know, did unspeakable things to her. That's an incredibly difficult thing to have to contemplate. And I don't think we are suggesting that she's 100 percent...

KING: OK?

HEYMAN: ...you know, happy or better or OK. I think that's a judgment that she would have to make. I think she's taking it day by day.

KING: Are you surprised at how good she looks?

HEYMAN: Yes.

KING: I am.

HEYMAN: You know, I'm not only surprised, I think that -- I think, like many people, I'm -- I'm thrilled to see how great she looks. She's a radiant young woman.

KING: What about her daughters?

We have two daughters, right?

HEYMAN: Yes. KING: Fifteen-year-old Angel and 11-year-old Starlet.

HEYMAN: That's correct.

KING: How are they?

Where are they?

HEYMAN: Well, by all accounts, they are -- well, they are with her. But by all accounts, they are doing very well. And they're with Jaycee. They are -- they have a lot of catching up to do. These are two girls who've never had any formal schooling. And, remember, Jaycee has only been to school since the fifth grade. So they -- you know, they are learning what they haven't been learning formally, anyway, with a private tutor at a home in Northern California and reintegrating themselves into a world that, you know, certainly in the case of the children, they never really knew.

KING: Is Jaycee going to school -- any kind of school; tutoring, as well?

What is she doing?

HEYMAN: Well, mainly I think what she's doing is reconnecting with her family. She's spending a lot of time around horses. She loves horses. She's spending a lot of time with her daughters, caring for her two daughters. She's cooperating with authorities when they, you know, need her to help with this investigation. And, you know, I think she's figuring out the rest of her life. That's a lot for somebody at the age of 29 to have to do.

KING: Did you learn if there was any Stockholm Syndrome involved?

HEYMAN: Well, I really...

KING: Getting attached to the captor?

HEYMAN: Well, I really can't speculate about -- about whether there was any sort of, you know, quote, unquote, Stockholm Syndrome. Obviously, when a young child is kidnapped and -- and held for that long of a time, there is going to be a complex relationship between anybody and the people that are holding them so...

KING: How is the family's attitude, by the way?

HEYMAN: Incredibly positive. This is an incredibly strong and positive group of people, who are doing everything they can to mend this family and to help Jaycee and her two girls reintegrate into -- into life.

KING: An extraordinary exclusive for "People." You'll read all about it and see the pictures on Friday.

Are you searching for a missing son, daughter, brother, sister -- thinking they might come home one day? Jaycee's case has given many anguished families hope.

Mr. Heyman remains with us and we'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: J.D. Heyman, the assistant managing editor of "People" remains with us.

Joining us here in Los Angeles, Dr. Michelle Golland, the clinical psychologist, contributor to MomLogic.com.

And in Alexandria, Virginia, Ernie Allen. He is president and CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Dr. Golland, what's your reaction to the "People" picture story?

MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D. CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, my first reaction is one of concern. And the concern comes out of the idea that -- that they could actually get in front of the media. And I'm concerned about that because, as we know in this business, that you don't control the media, the media controls the story. And so I'm concerned about her having her image out so early and it's only been seven weeks. I understand the empowerment experience...

KING: Are you...

GOLLAND: ...but it's just...

KING: Are you...

GOLLAND: ...it's disconcerting for how the paparazzi may react.

KING: Are you saying as a psychologist, you would have advised against it?

GOLLAND: I would have.

KING: Ernie Allen, you're president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

What's your reaction?

ERNIE ALLEN, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Well, Larry, I -- I don't agree. I think it's an incredibly empowering moment for Jaycee and her family. There's been massive media interest across this country. We and others have counseled this family to maintain seclusion to deal with this difficult reunification process.

But I think this is a way of sending a message to the American public that Jaycee Dugard is well, that she's progressing. And I think it's not exploitive. I think it's empowering.

KING: J.D. could it set off a media frenzy, though, paparazzi going up to Northern California now, she did it there, do it for us? HEYMAN: I don't think so. In fact. I think what it does is it takes a little pressure off this family, because as much as we would like to think that people are respectful of people in these situations, I think being Jaycee is very difficult. And the fact that there was only this image of her as a small child out there led to a lot of speculation -- you've seen it yourself -- pictures being disseminated in tabloids that were not her, a lot of curiosity -- money probably being paid to people to try and get this photograph.

So I think the family did a very smart thing. And I will say, because we have dealt with the family for a long time, that they have handled this incredibly well and have been extremely careful about exposing not just Jaycee, but her daughters, to any kind of undue attention.

KING: Dr. Golland, you were nodding as both Mr. Allen and Mr. Heyman spoke, but you disagree with them.

GOLLAND: Well, I mean I understand the experience of it being empowering and having the choice to do it. I'm just concerned that at some point in the near future -- you know, I heard someone say, you know, you can't give the beast an hors d'oeuvre and expect them to be satisfied. And -- and so it's just any concern is now everyone -- the paparazzi may be very interested in now getting pictures of the girls, because we only saw the back of their heads. And we know how this business works. And so my concern is for the emotional well-being of the -- of the children.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Ernie, does what Dr. Golland said impress you at all?

ALLEN: No, it does. And I think she's right. That's one of the reasons why we have worked with this family and we provided the psychologist to help this family through the reunification process. That's why we've tried so hard to make sure that -- that they can remain secluded, that they can deal with -- with this difficult challenge. You can't erase these 18 years. This is going to be a long -- a life-long process of recovery.

But -- but I think what they were trying to do was respond to the overwhelming interest. There are hundreds of searching families have been inspired and uplifted by this. And so I think it was an effort to send a message that they're doing fine and they're making progress and that there is hope.

KING: Was...

HEYMAN: I just want to pick on -- up on something that he said, which is for most of us, the experience of missing and exploited children are pictures on the Internet or on a milk carton. And these are children that are frozen in time and the terrible things that happen to them...

KING: This is real. HEYMAN: ...are never seen. And happy endings aren't seen. And I think we're able to present an image of somebody who survived this ordeal -- who may have a long way to go, but who has survived and is seemingly thriving is very important.

KING: Jaycee's spokesperson on why Jaycee wanted the world to see her picture today, in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The Dugard family spokesperson has some insight with Jaycee, the reunion with her mother and Jaycee's feelings about the man who allegedly kidnapped her.

And here's what she said earlier on "The Today Show."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE TODAY SHOW," COURTESY NBC)

ERIKA PRICE SHULTE, DUGARD FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: I have seen a family that I think if you didn't know the circumstances, it would just seem like -- like any other family -- just, you know, the love between Jaycee and her mother and, you know, her sister, Shana (ph), who was an -- an infant, really, when Jaycee was taken. And they have just formed a very, very close bond.

And to see them all embrace Jaycee's daughters -- and -- and the five of them are just very close and comfortable and happy. You know, they kind of tease each other sometimes and, you know, sometimes there's differences of opinion. It's just a really -- it's just -- it's such a normal family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We'll be back with the families of two missing girls who vanished around the same time as Jaycee -- what their relatives are thinking tonight, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Our panel remains.

Joining us now in San Francisco, Sharon Murch. Her daughter, Michaela, was snatched in broad daylight in Hayward, California on November 19th, 1988. She was nine years old. She has a Web site -- MissingMichaela. It's spelled Michaela -- MissingMichaela.com.

Also in San Francisco, Mike and Maddi Misheloff. Their daughter might and Maddi. Their daughter Ilene vanished on her way home from school in Dublin, California on January 30th, 1989. She was 13. Her Web site is Find-Ilene.org. Find-Ilene.org.

Sharon, what do you make of this story and does it encourage you about Michaela?

SHARON MURCH, DAUGHTER MICHAELA KIDNAP IN 1988: I am really happy to see Jaycee's picture out there. I'm really happy to see her coming out in public. When we see these children who have been kidnapped and have been recovered, like Eliza -- Elizabeth Smart and Sean Har -- Sean Hornbeck, they don't present themselves as victims. They present themselves as survivors and very strong people. And it's very encouraging to those of us who are still waiting for our children to come home.

KING: Mike, how do you feel about it with regard to Ilene?

MIKE MISHELOFF, DAUGHTER ILENE VANISHED IN 1989: Well, it certainly gives us hope that Jaycee survived for 18 years. And, apparently, from all signs, she's doing well. And that gives us hope that Ilene -- we may find her and that she can have a normal life.

KING: Maddi, how do you feel?

MADDI MISHELOFF, DAUGHTER ILENE VANISHED IN 1989: I feel absolute joy for Jaycee and her family and for people who have wondered or questioned or looked at us as possibly not all there for having hope that Ilene can be returned. This is proof it can happen and I will not give up on my child. And I hope for Sharon and (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Sharon...

MADDI MISHELOFF: ...and Ilene.

KING: Sharon, have you, over these years, gotten any hints -- any tips about Michaela?

MURCH: We've had a lot of leads over the years. And we've had a lot of leads come into the police department with the publicity that we have had as a result of Jaycee being found. She has really been a gift to missing children because she has brought so much attention to the cases. And even if these cases don't end up being related to hers, even if Phillip Garrido has nothing to do with it, then she still may help solve these other cases.

KING: Yes.

Mike, do you hear anything about Ilene at all over the years?

MIKE MISHELOFF: Oh, well, there's been lots of leads which have come into the police department. Unfortunately, none of them has turned out to be -- have anything to do with Ilene. But we're still hoping.

KING: All right. Does this seem to, Michelle, contradict what you're thinking?

They're all hopeful about this and glad to see her.

GOLLAND: You know what, I -- I completely understand that this would bring them hope. I really do. My concern is simply for the experience of Jaycee and the girls and what will happen -- I mean, let's face it, she was trapped for 18 years. So were the girls. And it's been seven weeks. And my concern is that -- that there could be some retraumatizing, in the sense that now she's out there, she could be trapped in her home. We see what happens with Jon Gosselin and Kate. And they're -- they're running around and anybody who's had paparazzi around them or chase them, it's frightening. That can cause PTSD.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

GOLLAND: So that's -- that's my concern. And I believe...

(CROSSTALK)

GOLLAND: ...I get the hope.

HEYMAN: I just want to...

KING: Ernie?

HEYMAN: I just want to -- you know, I want to say, again, because I -- I think your concerns are -- are well-founded. I mean one of the things about this, Larry, that I think everyone who dealt with this story, from the family to the journalists involved, were very aware of and we -- many of us are parents. Many of us. I grew up in the Bay Area. I -- I know these pictures of these families. I've -- these were stories that I knew myself.

And I think we all come to this with a great deal of concern for -- for Jaycee. And we want to make sure that, you know, she has a good life. She deserves a good life.

Beyond that, I do think it's important to -- to get that message of hope out there. It may not be statistically common or everyday...

KING: Well said.

HEYMAN: ...but it does say to a lot of people that there is a possibility.

KING: And, Ernie, do the people you keep in touch with retain their hope?

ALLEN: Oh, absolutely. And -- and one of the points we make is that we don't believe that there are only three of these long-term missing children who have survived. It is just not common sense.

So there is hope. We are receiving more leads, more attention for cases like Michaela's and Ilene's and hundreds of other long-term missing child cases. We believe more of these children can come home alive.

KING: Thank you.

Thank you, Sharon.

MURCH: Thank you.

KING: Mike and Maddi, the best of luck. J.D. Congratulations.

HEYMAN: Thank you.

KING: And Dr. Golland and Ernie Allen, thank you, too.

You know anyone ill without health insurance?

Don't miss what's coming next. Dr. Mehmet Oz is here to tell us what he witnessed firsthand at one of the largest free health clinics ever.

Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE a good guy, Dr. Mehmet Oz, the host of the new and very successful daytime show, "The Dr. Oz Show;" "The New York Times" best-selling author of the "You" book series; the vice chair and professor of surgery at Columbia University in New York.

The Senate Finance Committee has become the fifth and final Congressional panel to approve a sweeping health care reform package against the backdrop of a mega million dollar lobbying effort to influence lawmakers and shape public opinion. The legislative fight now moves to the full House and Senate.

As a physician, Dr. Oz, as an American, as a human, what's your reaction to this whole health debate issue?

MEHMET OZ, HOST, "THE DR. OZ SHOW": Well, it's been a little embarrassing that we have such a vitriolic battle over the ideology of providing affordable health care to all. And -- and part of what we wanted to do, we went to Houston to have this big health clinic for free for people that didn't have health care coverage was to put a face on the quandary faced by so many Americans who don't have coverage.

And, by the way, if you're watching thing show right now and you think, oh, that's not me, 85 percent, roughly, of the people who are seen in free health clinics, they have jobs. They're like you and me. And, Larry, they took one wrong turn -- not a life-long path of -- of being a vagabond, but one wrong turn and all of a sudden they lost their coverage. And in America, if you lose your coverage, you cannot get it back again.

It was stunning to me, as a physician, to experience this, because, you know, Larry, I thought I'd be practicing medicine in a tent once in a while just out of charity work, I just didn't think it would be done in America.

KING: How did this Houston thing come about?

OZ: Well, we had the idea that if we really wanted to get the leaders of this nation to understand the plight that we face on the frontline -- and, as a doctor, I deal with this in the emergency rooms, but, you know, nurses and other volunteers who participate in these programs feel this pain firsthand.

If we could somehow put a face on it, it would work. So we picked Houston, Larry, because Houston has the highest percentage of uninsured people in the country. Now, remember, there are many other states and cities that are following closely behind, but Houston is just a little bit ahead of everybody else.

Without much publicity at all, we ended upsetting the record for the most number of uninsured people taken care of in a day. That's a very embarrassing record. I'm chagrined by it. You should never have to break that record in this country. And I think by studying the plight of the people...

KING: How many did you see?

OZ: It was about 1,800 people. And people started lining up at 5:00 in the morning. And I should emphasize, you know, I was in Katrina. You and I both spent time talking about the catastrophes around this country. This was just a regular Saturday in Houston. There wasn't anything special about this day. And without a ton of exposure, people came out of the woodwork so desperate, just clinging to any hope that they could actually get to see a doctor.

KING: And you're doing this in a state also encouraging where the senators might vote for the bill, right?

OZ: Also important, of course. And by the way, I want to be clear on this. I don't really have a horse in the race of which form of the health care bill gets approved. I think what would hurt us is more than anything else, not allowing ourselves to recognize these are fellow Americans, human beings. Which in Houston, for example, one in three people represent this group of uninsured who desperately need help.

That little girl you see right there, her name is Annalea (ph). I met her because she had a little murmur in her heart. She's 14- months-old. Her mom holding her there, Victoria, her mother has five kids, has a job, and has no insurance. So when her kids get sick, Larry, we have antibiotics in this country but she doesn't get any of them because she can't go to a doctor to get a prescription.

KING: Let's -- Dr. Oz, we're going to take a look at that very story. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OZ: Dr. Sanders (ph) suspected a problem with baby Annalea's heart and called me in for further testing. I'm Mehmet Oz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Victoria.

OZ: And this is the beautiful one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

OZ: Go ahead and put this on the chest. Can we echo her? OK. Right there. Here is the hole in the middle of her heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: It's awfully encouraging and awfully a lot of tragedy, isn't it, doctor?

OZ: It is. You know, I'm doing an echocardiogram. We're on a rodeo trade floor show. The Houston Texans played football next in that same complex and we're looking at a child's heart. And what's most hurtful when I see these kinds of folks and again, there are so many stores I can share. But these are all people who felt invisible. They felt they no longer counted.

And Larry, you cannot have a wealthy country if you're not a healthy country. That child deserves a shot at health. We can't guarantee her health, but if she has a fixable problem and with her siblings, we should afford them the opportunity to get taken care of. Because you know Larry, when we don't do it, they're like a ship cruising into a harbor without a captain. They bang into the port, they spew their oil all over the harbor, no one else can get in the dock and guess what? We still have to pay for it. So we get no value for the money we spend.

KING: Yeah. How is she going to do?

OZ: I think she's going to do great. Of course, the show, which is airing tomorrow, takes her story and many others and tries to chronicle them in a way that allows Americans to understand the plight that our fellow Americans face. And in her case, we got her hooked up with a great cardiology group. Again, if you're watching the show and you don't have health care coverage, don't be ashamed. There are lots of people like the ones who are going to help baby Annalea who want to participate in supporting you. Getting free clinics into all the states in this country is a big passion of all of us, I think on the Dr. Oz show and I want to make sure it happens.

KING: It's on your show tomorrow?

OZ: It airs tomorrow on our show. We made a lot of shows, but I'll tell you, this was in my opinion the most profound one we ever touched on. It was a very sad show in many ways, but what was most uplifting is you see the volunteers giving their time. Look them in the eye and say you matter to me, I care about you, I'm here to help you.

KING: We'll take a break and come back with more. Five questions for Dr. Oz. He'll tell you how to start living a healthier life in three steps and it's easier than you think. All you've got to do is go to our blog, CNN.com/LarryKing to see all of this for yourself. What is the single most important thing we can do to see that everyone has access to affordable health care, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OZ: In just 12 hours, we saw 1,784 patients. For the nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance, free clinics like this are a lifeline and the men and women who selflessly give their time and talents are the true American heroes of our day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Another reminder, that special show will be on Dr. Oz's show tomorrow. All right, we went out saying, what can we do? What can we do?

OZ: Well, there are a lot of things folks should do and the first is not to be ashamed if you lost your health care coverage. And remember, the reason why so many working Americans don't have coverage is when they shifted their jobs, there was no new insurance program available, they had a preexisting condition, which could be as simple as a fertility treatment. And it doesn't take much to fall out of the insurance pool.

And in America once you lose your insurance, it's hard to get back in. So what are the action steps? One, there's a National Association of Free Clinics. Nicole Lamero (ph), who you saw in one of those clips, is the leader of that group, spectacular organization.

And they come to communities all over this great nation. And I've done a bunch of free clinics, Larry. We did one with Oprah last spring. I went down to Mooresville, North Carolina for a friend. We've been able to visit lots of these clinics and this national association brings people together.

Doctors, nurses, volunteers, in a unified effort, and they find medical homes for you because there are people who care about you, who want to support you if you don't have coverage in this country.

KING: How do we get in touch with them?

OZ: Well actually, I'm going to link to them on your Web site. That little baby girl, baby Annalea and her mom Victoria are on your site. The droz.com site has information on it. And the National Association of Free Clinics is the best way to find out about them.

And I just want to emphasize one broad thing. I think if we handle it correctly in Washington, we have a pretty good shot at dramatically reducing the line of people who come to these free clinics. Just to put some numbers on this, two years ago, there were about 2 million people seen at free clinics. This past year, 4 million.

We anticipate that this year, there will be about 8 million people who get cared for at free clinics. So I think it's important for all of us as we look towards our leadership in Washington to recognize that the only real way we fail is not to put a face on these people, not acknowledge these people as our neighbors. If we're serious about this, we'll develop an affordable care program for all Americans. I'm not going to get into the details. I know that's where the devil lies. But the reality is, we can if we put our mind to it, develop systems for providing a social infrastructure. Because again, you cannot grow a nation to what it desires to be if you're not a healthy people.

KING: How did this rich nation, this powerful nation, this incredible nation come to this?

OZ: Well I think every system is perfectly designed for the outcome that comes in front of it. And for too long, we ignored the few of us who couldn't get health care coverage because it used to be pretty straight up to get some. And over the last few years, partly because of the economic downturn but also because it became easier to not have insurance and live in America, we lost count of the number of folks who weren't part of the system.

And at some point, the snowball gets so large, it crushes the system. You know Larry, as a practicing doctor, one of the most painful experiences for me is when someone sees me without coverage. Not because I don't get paid but because they come to me without anybody shepherding their care. So it's an extremely expensive process.

There was one young man that I saw in Houston. His name was Stephen and he had a large mass growing out of his lip. He's one of the people we're going to talk about tomorrow. This mass was so unsightly that nobody would hire him for a job. Without a job, he couldn't get insurance. Without insurance, he couldn't have the lip fixed. It turned out to be a lip cancer.

Now he's going to end up getting treated. In fact, he just had surgery down in Houston by some very kind doctors. But the operation and the subsequent therapy with radiation is a lot more expensive than it would have been than to just excise this in the doctor's office a year ago.

KING: A lot of catch 22s in this. We'll be back with Dr. Oz in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Dr. Mehmet Oz. Were any these people, doctor, ashamed they had to go to a free clinic?

OZ: There were a lot of them who were ashamed. At Adams (ph), one of the first people we saw actually had a six figure job until last December. Again, made one small mistake, he ended up being laid off because his company was restructuring and nine months later he has got blood coming out in his bowel movements and he's desperate because he's positive he has colon cancer. And so we ended up bringing him in. Again as part of tomorrow's show, I think that's him right there. We talked to him.

But these people, they feel like they're invisible, no one cares about them. And when you fall off the train, you don't become part of the solution anymore. And I do want to highlight Larry, what we saw a lot in this free clinic that you're looking at is chronic illnesses. The chronic illnesses that cost at least two thirds of the healthcare bill that we all pay for.

And if we don't get in front of this, if we don't educate people and support them and understanding the chronic ailments that ultimately rot away their insides, rust the tubes that bring blood supplies to their hearts and their heads and predispose them to everything from cancer to immune problems and even make them more susceptible to viral infections, which is important to a lot of Americans today, we're giving up a huge opportunity to help the least of those among us.

KING: I salute you, Dr. Oz. And I want to mention, congratulate you, your new show just on the air, is already number three among daytime talk. Oprah is number one, Dr. Phil is number two, Dr. Oz is number three. Congratulations, want everybody to watch that tomorrow. Good to see you again.

OZ: And Larry, I want to thank you and CNN for all the support you gave us throughout this free clinic. I'm always indebted to you. Thanks.

KING: Thank you, doc. Hey, don't forget about Dr. Oz's Web exclusive. It's only at CNN.com/LarryKing. Strong stuff, health care and reform pros and cons.

Arianna Huffington versus Ben Stein. I'll just sit and listen, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Before we get into it with Arianna and Ben, let's check in with Anderson Cooper, the host of "A.C. 360" at the top of the hour. What's up tonight, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, on the program tonight, breaking news. Rush Limbaugh will not be buying a piece of the St. Louis Rams. He was dropped by the group trying to buy the team following the uproar over his past controversial remarks. He says it's now about him, it's about the left trying to destroy conservatism.

Also tonight, Texas Governor Rick Perry facing mounting criticism that he executed an innocent man. He fired back tonight saying the man executed was a monster. But is the governor trying to block an investigation? We're keeping them honest.

And in "Crime and Punishment" tonight, two people dead, taking part in a sweat lodge ceremony at a spiritual retreat. Gary Tuchman on how this could have been happened with an exclusive look inside the ritual. Those stories and our special report this week "Politicians Behaving Badly." Tonight, Senator John Ensign, why he could be facing criminal charges ahead on the program, Larry.

KING: That's "A.C. 360" with Anderson Cooper, 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.

We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, return visit of many return visits for them, Arianna Huffington, the co-founder, editor-in-chief of "Huffington Post." HuffingtonPost.com is where to click into them. And Ben Stein, economist, former presidential speechwriter and columnist for "Fortune" magazine.

We'll zero in beginning with Afghanistan. The president met with top military and foreign policy advisers again today. Should he give General McChrystal the 4,000 extra troops he wants? Ben?

BEN STEIN, ECONOMIST: I thought McChrystal wanted 40,000.

KING: Oh, 40,000, forgive me.

STEIN: It's OK, you're forgiven. I think if McChrystal says we need them, then we probably need them. My own feeling is Afghanistan has probably never been subdued. I'm not sure it ever will be subdued. It's a total mess of hostile warring tribes, many of them living in Pakistan. But what do we do about all the people who trusted in us when we came in and threw in their lot in us, will we betray them and let them be tortured and killed?

KING: The Russians split.

STEIN: I know and many of their friends got tortured and killed. So do we want to do what we did in Vietnam? Do we want to do it again?

KING: Before we get, Arianna, to your call for Joe Biden to resign which we'll get right into, what is your feeling on the Afghanistan situation?

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, HUFFINGTON POST: Well, that's the reason why I think that Joe Biden should resign, because he is against the escalation of the war.

KING: According to "Newsweek."

HUFFINGTON: According to "Newsweek," according to multiple sources. And this is the moment to act. The president decides to escalate, on top of the 21,000 troops that he's already sent to Afghanistan since he became president, after eight years, after no clear exit strategy, after no clear understanding of what our mission is there, since only 100 al Qaeda members are left there, according to General Jones himself, the majority has moved to Pakistan.

This is the moment for the vice president to actually do something bold and courageous and resign. Because aren't you tired of all these people who after the fact write their memoirs and say how ferocious and forceful they were behind closed doors?

KING: I've asked many vice presidents on what terms would they ever quit? They always said if it was a major moral issue. Is this a major moral issue?

HUFFINGTON: This is a major moral issue. This is about war and peace. It's about the national security of the country.

KING: But you don't know if the president is going to not reduce troops.

HUFFINGTON: Well, obviously this is contingent on the president escalating which is what we are hearing he's going to do. We are hearing that he's going to split the difference, that he's now going to give McChrystal the full 40,000 troops that he's asked for, that he's going to give him some of those troops.

KING: Ben, under those circumstances, this is the question, if this occurs, and this is all hypothetical, if he increases troops and Joe Biden disagrees, should he quit?

STEIN: Absolutely not. He's devoted to the president, he's mostly serving the Constitution, the president is the boss. He's not the boss. But I go back to the issue, Afghanistan was the haven for the al Qaeda. There are 100 there now. There will be a hell of a lot more if we leave and the Taliban takes over. Again, it will be a perfectly safe haven for al Qaeda.

KING: What would you do?

STEIN: I don't know what to do. That's the thing. There are a lot of questions to which I don't know the answer. What I do know is when the Taliban were in charge, they were incredibly cruel and vicious to their enemies. I hate to see innocent women who went to school, who dared to go to school under American promises of protection being torn apart.

KING: But you also hate to see American boys and girls die.

STEIN: I do, but you know something, they believe in the mission. I'm in touch with an awful lot of them by e-mail. They believe in the mission. I don't think they want to see us bug out. But I just don't know. I don't think there's ever been a case where a foreign power, for a substantial time, subdued Afghanistan.

KING: Would this have been over if we stayed there and never went to Iraq?

HUFFINGTON: Well, it would have been completely different. You see, if we had stayed there, when al Qaeda was there, instead of being destructive in Iraq, that would have been a necessary war.

Right now, it's a war of choice. And you know, this is not a right/left issue, Larry. You know, George Will, Richard Huff, former senator Chuck Hagel, many conservatives have actually come out against the escalation in Afghanistan. And the problem right now is when Ben talks about the plight of women, the plight of women is horrible right now under Karzai's government. Violence against women is horrific right now. And there's a lot of Karzai signs in July that said for example...

KING: Wouldn't you want us to leave? HUFFINGTON: I think that there is absolutely no reason for us to be in Afghanistan right now. There are many dangers facing America. Afghanistan is not the primary danger. And for us to be wasting the kind of resources, both in terms of manpower and in terms of treasure in Afghanistan, is simply delusional.

KING: And Ben, you're saying we have to say?

STEIN: I think if we cannot be trusted, if our word cannot be trusted, we're not a great power.

KING: We'll take a break and come back and we'll talk about health reform, what's going to happen, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The health care crisis is coming to some sort of resolution, some sort of bill coming to the Senate, then the House. Bill Clinton even predicts some Republican support. Watch what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: I'm not sure, by the way, that when we get this bill to the floor, if we get a good one, Senator Snowe may not be the only person, the only Republican to vote for it. There's four or five others who want to. Really, they do. It's just a question, they're all arguing in the background that if we can say no, we can repeat 1994. And they can't. It's a different country now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: He's as sharp a politician as they come. Is he right here?

STEIN: I think he's right. I think they'll get a few Republican votes. But I'd like to ask a question. This whole bill is premised upon huge cost savings by lowering reimbursements to doctors in Medicare. Why should we be paying doctors, why do they deserve to be the ones punished? If it's a national issue and we want to help the poor and health care, why doesn't everyone chip in? Why take it all out of the hides of doctors? I mean, doctors haven't done anything wrong. Why are we taking it out on them?

KING: Arianna?

HUFFINGTON: Well, the main problem with this bill is that it does not really provide for enough competition to bring about the cost containment that is the essence of any real reform.

KING: They're threatening to take anti-trust away from insurance companies.

HUFFINGTON: Anti-trust being taken away from the health insurance industry is absolutely crucial, and I hope Ben will agree with me.

After all, the essence of our capitalist system is competition. Why should the health insurance industry have a special exemption, a special anti-trust exemption? And without the public option, that's my concern. The health insurance industry will really get a large majority of additional clients, basically.

STEIN: The public option basically kills the health insurance industry. But that's OK. I don't have any stock in health insurance companies. I don't care. But I want to know why are we kicking the doctors? I just want to know, we need doctors, they're basic, they're life or death, why punish them? Why lower their reimbursements? They're already paid pathetically little for Medicare procedures. Why are we punishing them?

HUFFINGTON: Well actually, the main reason for the cut in Medicare is because this bill had to be deficit neutral. And the Congressional Budget Office did say that it was going to be deficit neutral. Of course, I don't know how many will believe that, because nothing has ever been deficit neutral.

But the more important question for me, is this going to be real reform or is it going to be the kind of pretend reform that we saw, for example, with the passage of the education reform bill? Remember, Leave No Child Behind? Everybody singing "kumbaya" together, Democrats and Republicans and now the education system is worse than ever and everybody has checked off education.

KING: What will we do then about the plight of the fact that this country would have so many people...

STEIN: Well when I was speechwriter for Mr. Nixon, we set up the first national health care bill and we simply said, we will give the poor money to buy health insurance. We're not going to make it complicated, we're just going to raise the deficit or charge --

KING: And who defeated that?

STEIN: It got sort of swamped in the Watergate mess but it was a darn good idea. And actually, we were going to put a tax on what we called gold plated medical insurance plans, health insurance plans, and help finance part of it that way. It was a darn good idea. Just give the poor money to buy health insurance plans.

HUFFINGTON: Well you know, can you really just imagine what happened to the Republican Party from the days that Ben is describing where there was such a big leap forward from the Nixon administration and what's happening right now? It is really stunning.

But the key question is the one you're asking, really. How can we, in the richest country on the earth, have the millions of uninsured or even if you're insured, those who get their health insurance rejected because of preexisting conditions. We had a story in our new section on the "Huffington Post" of the family, the Stein family --

KING: No relation.

HUFFINGTON: Whose home was foreclosed because of major health problems. The mother went blind. In order to save money to take care of her children, we raised over $20,000 for them in 24 hours. There are people in this country who are desperate to give back.

KING: That's unacceptable.

STEIN: It is unacceptable, but we're not as rich as you think, Arianna. If you look into account the unfunded liabilities for Medicare and Social Security, the country is bankrupt. So we're not quite as rich as you think we are. But even so, we can afford to give medical care to the poorest among us. No one should have to go without medical care in this country. That's absolutely true. But, again, I want to get back to why take it out of the hides of doctors?

HUFFINGTON: I gave you an answer. He's not listening to me.

STEIN: I don't care if it's deficit neutral or not.

HUFFINGTON: I'm not telling you it's the correct thing to do, I'm just saying...

KING: Does the Republican Party want this to fail so they win in congressional elections?

STEIN: No, I think they want it to fail because they want to defeat an effort of big government. But I think the small government alternative that Mr. Nixon proposed long ago would do the job. Just by health insurance for the pool and we wouldn't have a big government. I don't know why the Republican Party didn't put that forward.

KING: All right, what's going to happen? We have about 40 seconds left. What's going to happen?

HUFFINGTON: There's going to be a bill. It's not going to be a good bill. It's going to be a reform in name only because it's not going to have a public option, because everybody is desperate to bring Olympia Snowe along. I don't know why. It's like pretend bipartisanship. You don't have a bipartisan bill because you get one senator from the state of Maine going along.

KING: Ben, what's going to happen?

STEIN: More big government, more and more big government. We had a chance to do it with small government and instead they chose big government. And we're going to have a clerk from the Department of Motor Vehicles between the doctor and the patient that we didn't need to have. We could have had a very economical, simple basic solution.

KING: So you are -- neither of you are very optimistic.

STEIN: I would rather have a bill than no bill at all. I don't want to have people not able to pay their medical bills and not able to go to the doctor. KING: By the way, you'll find a link to Arianna's commentary about why she thinks Joe Biden should resign at CNN.com/LarryKing. We want to thank Arianna Huffington and Ben Stein for being with us. You are always welcome. We look forward to your next visit, maybe even tomorrow.

Anderson Cooper and "A.C. 360" starts right now. Anderson?

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