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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Jane Velez-Mitchell; Interview With Anna Deavere Smith
Aired October 15, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: She`s a crime fighting lesbian vegan. Cartoon superhero? No. Reporter, television host, and author? Yes. She`s Jane Velez-Mitchell and she`ll be joining me tonight.
Then President Obama is having as much trouble with the left as he is with the right. Is that a good thing?
And joining me in the studio one of the stars of show time`s "Nurse Jackie" Anna Deveare Smith.
All that and more tonight.
I want to start with a story out of Colorado. A giant, silver helium balloon raced across the state for two hours this afternoon. Here with more details is HLN`s own Jane Velez-Mitchell -- Jane.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST, ISSUES: It was bizarre and terrifying. It was just crazy. Nobody`s ever seen anything like this. You looked up and it looked like a silver flying saucer just barreling through the sky at a high rate of speed.
It`s about 20 feet wide, five feet deep. It was reaching altitudes of 5,000 to approximately 8,000 feet...
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...although those are guesstimates obviously.
And it was just crazy and terrifying. Because we all thought that there was a little boy inside.
BEHAR: But there wasn`t.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...until it finally landed...
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...and it turns out there wasn`t a little boy inside.
BEHAR: Now, what about the parents? I heard that they were on "Wife Swap."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
BEHAR: Did you know anything about that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, dad is eccentric times 12. This is a guy who is a self-described inventor. He`s invented things like a magnetic bicycle. He has done an iReport for CNN where he talked about life on Mars. You get the idea.
BEHAR: Well...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He also appeared on "Wife Swap" with his family...
BEHAR: ...but that doesn`t make him a bad person.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it makes him a flying saucer builder which is exactly what he did. He built this flying saucer...
BEHAR: Well, why is the kid in it? Why did he get in it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, supposedly it wasn`t ever meant to take off. It was meant to -- it has helium in it or did and it was meant to just sort of float around in the backyard. And it could have been what he was designing. He wanted to design a flying saucer to go into storms.
But the fight is to say, the kid wasn`t supposed to go in it, he did. And the last word was that the two older brothers were on top of the roof with cameras going, "Oh my gosh, look at our brother, he`s up in the sky."
BEHAR: All right, now you know Jane, you`ve been breaking these stories for a long time. 30 years?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hate to say it; I usually dropped at the last ten or the first ten off my resume. But yes 30 years.
BEHAR: But now, you`re the author of a new book "I Want:. My journey from addiction and over-consumption to a simpler, honest life."
Now, from reading this book you have had a lot of addictions.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have. I cover pretty much all of them. Whatever addiction you`ve got I cover it in the book because I had it.
BEHAR: You had enough addictions for everyone in this studio.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Every single person. And that`s why everybody in America should get this book, because seriously, America`s an addict nation. We all have addictions. If you`re not addicted to alcohol, drugs, or food, or sugar, or sex, or you`re codependent, or you`re an enabler, or you`re a gambler.
Everybody is addicted to something, especially food in this country; obesity threatening to surpass smoking as the number one killer.
BEHAR: Well, everybody is not addicted to ten things though. You were.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I wanted to cover them all, why not. I only go through life once.
BEHAR: Which was the worst one, alcohol?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alcohol was the definitely the worst one because it`s a killer. And I blacked out which is the hallmark of addiction. And so I have to make the phone call the next day, what happened after 9:45? I remember we were here but I forgot what happened...
BEHAR: Do you know why you became an alcoholic?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: My dad was an alcoholic and I dedicate the book to him and he never got sober.
BEHAR: It`s his fault so why would you dedicate the book to him?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because I love my dad. I love him and he did the best he could. But when I stay sober I stay sober for myself and my dad who never got to sobriety.
BEHAR: And also the other thing about you, you`re such an interesting person, I don`t think the fans really understand how interesting you are. You have all these addictions. Plus you recently came out on national TV as a lesbian. Why now?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I it took me a long time for me to admit to myself that I was gay.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I fought it for many years. I tried real hard to be a heterosexual and...
BEHAR: What do you do, how do you try?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You date men.
BEHAR: You date men but did you enjoy it at all?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I enjoyed some of it.
BEHAR: Which part do you enjoy?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do I -- I don`t know if I can tell you on television.
BEHAR: Was it the sex? Did you enjoy the sex?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think the thing that was lacking was the deeper emotional connection. I could leave men with a drop of the hat without really feeling the tears. But when I got into a relationship with a woman, boy, those tears flowed when we broke up.
I mean, I really cried myself a river. And then I had to go to another program to get over that.
BEHAR: So the men were kind of like just sex objects to you?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they were great guys...
BEHAR: Boy toys.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The last boyfriend I had who`s still a dear friend, he was the one who gave me the permission in a sense. He said, "You have to do this, you have to find out who you really are." And I love him for that and I always loved him.
But I just -- there was a missing component. And that missing component is that my basic identity, I had to admit to myself, once I got sober and I couldn`t hide behind a bottle of Chardonnay.
BEHAR: Well, that`s interesting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes because -- when I was drinking I could always drown the uncomfortable feelings. And that`s what we do as a country.
BEHAR: Well and when you`re drinking you can also have sex with men even though you`re a lesbian.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You got it, bingo.
BEHAR: So how old were you when you came out to your family?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I was very...
BEHAR: An adult?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I was -- yes, a major adult. Well -- I`ve never been a major adult. But I was definitely beyond the age that you would normally want to come out. And I don`t do should have, could have or would. I was in my late 40s when this happened. I fell in love with a woman and that was bottom line.
BEHAR: In your late 40s?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, in my late 40s. And I had to...
BEHAR: Were you married at all before that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I was married once. And I`m still good friends with my ex-husband and he`s my buddy. I married my best friend and we`re still good friends.
BEHAR: I think that men can take it if their wife as lesbian rather than she left for another man. It`s easier, isn`t it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think so...
BEHAR: It`s not his problem...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I choose to think it`s easier...
BEHAR: Yes, I think it must be easier for them...
VELEZ-MITCHEL: Yes.
BEHAR: ...it keeps their egos intact.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I mean, the reason I wrote the book is so many Americans are struggling with all these issues. Identity issues and addiction and I put them in the mind of the addict, namely, my mind and explained why addicts do not respond to reason.
You could talk to them until they`re blue in the face and the mind has aligned with the craving.
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So the mind is not hearing anything that is said to an addict. That`s why you can`t scold an addict into sobriety.
BEHAR: A friend of mine who is a drug counselor, alcohol counselor and all that, he says that an addiction always takes precedence over any relationship.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, your number one relationship...
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...is with the substance of choice.
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re having a love affair with the substance of choice. And everybody else comes second. That`s why children, who have alcoholic parents, often grow up so bitter, because dad is not really there.
BEHAR: Yes, my father was a gambler, I felt that also.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s true.
BEHAR: Now, you said it`s taken decades of therapy to find out what makes me happy. So what makes you happy now?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what makes me happy is waking up and doing something every day and to try to make the world a better place. I know that sounds really corny. But the whole message of sobriety is the transformation from being I, I, I, me, me, me, all desperately involved in one`s ego to being of service.
So as part of this transition, they say the only thing that has to change is everything. Everything changed in my life after I got sober. I also became a vegan which means that I can happily say I go through the day without killing. I practice peace on my plate; I practice peace in every step. I try to.
I`m not killing to survive. We don`t have to kill to survive and that was just one of the best decisions that I ever made in my life along with getting sober and coming out as gay.
BEHAR: So you`ve given up all your addictions. Do you smoke?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. But I also did smoke and I gave that up too.
BEHAR: You gave that -- you gave everything up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not everything.
BEHAR: Well, well, you`ve gave up your addictions. You`re not heavy. You gave up your food addiction.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well...
BEHAR: Were you heavy?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve always battled my weight. And thank you for saying that but it`s a constant struggle.
There are black and white addictions. You could give up booze, period. You could give up drugs, period. Food you have to negotiate with every day.
BEHAR: That`s hard?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you have to manage the grays. That where I stay, stay in the light gray as opposed to the dark gray.
BEHAR: You gave up sugar and clothes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I did.
BEHAR: What do you mean you gave up clothing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well here`s...
BEHAR: What does that mean? I read that, you gave up clothing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, sometimes I give up clothing.
BEHAR: Are you a shopaholic also?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I`m not a nudist or anything.
BEHAR: No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No but -- basically I`m saying America`s suffering from an over-consumption crisis. We are constantly buying. I did an inventory.
BEHAR: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I use the 12 steps in all aspects of my life and part of it is inventory. And I inventoried all my consumption for three days and I wanted to kill myself. All the plastic cups and the plastic bags and all this -- I can`t say it on the air that garbage (ph) that I didn`t need that I was bringing into my life and that`s an addiction.
And Americans have this addiction and we`re destroying the planet with our plastic bags and our shopping...
BEHAR: Ok, Jane. Well, people who give up an addiction usually replace it with something else.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another addiction.
BEHAR: So what`s the addiction you have now? A healthy one, maybe. Exercise, what is it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve tried to get into an addiction to the Vikram (ph) the sweaty yoga and it hasn`t taken yet. I`m hoping it will.
BEHAR: You don`t need to do that, that`s really uncivilized.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: The heat, the sweating. Wait until you`re in menopause, you won`t want to sit there. Trust me. Ok, Janie.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: Thank you. The book is called "I Want." Go pick up a copy. Jane, thank you again, for coming by.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you again, Joy.
Up next, President Obama`s trouble with the right and the left.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, HUFFINGTON POST: I thought it would be really important if the vice president, instead of waiting until after the fact to write the inevitable mea culpa memoir telling us how forceful he was behind the scenes in opposing the war and how sorry it was that he wasn`t listened to, that he can actually do the right thing right now. If this (INAUDIBLE) chooses to escalate he should resign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, that was Arianna Huffington calling for Joe Biden to resign if Obama doesn`t heed his advice on Afghanistan. I have to tell you after eight years of the GOP slobbering over President Bush it`s refreshing to see how the left is now willing to engage the White House in an honest, open debate.
Joining me are actor, comic and author of the novel, "I Am Not a Psychic" Richard Belzer and "New York Daily News" columnist Liz Benjamin. Ok. Welcome to the show.
So listen, should Biden resign? I mean, if Obama sends troops into Afghanistan?
RICHARD BELZER, ACTOR, COMIC, AUTHOR: I think that Arianna is right on the money in terms of when you look back at recent history, Colin Powell should have spoken up, clearly.
BEHAR: Yes.
BELZER: Certain people should have spoken up.
BEHAR: Scott McClellan.
BELZER: Scott McClellan wasn`t making war decisions.
BEHAR: He was there and he knew about the machinations and the evil...
BELZER: But Colin Powell became the good soldier and I think forever tarnished his reputation by helping lie us into a war. I think I agree with Arianna. I think if Biden threatens to resign if there`s no troop reduction, then we have a real country here.
BEHAR: That would be interesting. You agree with that, Liz?
LIZ BENJAMIN, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: No. Sorry.
BELZER: Why?
BENJAMIN: No. I mean, there`s one thing to actually speak up, which of course Colin Powell didn`t do. But it`s another thing to resign when you`re the Vice President of the United States.
BELZER: What can you do?
BEHAR: That`s the pro speaking up.
BENJAMIN: right. Well, there`s a protest...
(CROSS TALK)
BELZER: That`s the point.
BENJAMIN: You said he could threaten to resign, which is true. He might very well go out there and threaten to resign. The man has a bully pulpit. He could do many things and use it, he doesn`t have to resign.
BELZER: The most serious thing of all is sending kids to have their limbs and heads blown off...
BENJAMIN: Yes, I understand. I agree with that.
BELZER: And if there`s anything to resign over, it would be an unnecessary war.
BENJAMIN: Yes, I agree with that. But you might start by saying, by voicing your opposition.
BELZER: He is. He`s in private meetings now with... --
BELZER: In private meetings but is he speaking nationally? Is he speaking publicly about this?
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Can I move on with this for a second? Because the thing about it is that the fact is that the left is questioning Obama. I think that that is a healthy response. Don`t you?
BELZER: First of all...
BEHAR: Bush had yes-men around him and he had Cheney basically calling the shots.
BELZER: Cheney had yes-men around him. Bush wasn`t the president.
I think it`s great. I think that we should learn from Europe. You know, they have 14, 12 parties. There`s the liberal wing of the Democratic Party, there`s the moderate. Think these parties should all split up and have 5, 6, 7 parties: the green party, labor party, conservative party, evangelical, fascist, mindless, misogynist, homophobic, war mongering wing of the party.
BEHAR: You don`t mean that in a bad way.
BELZER: No. I think the two-party system is stupid. Everybody`s owned by the same people.
BEHAR: What about the idea of parliament, the way the Brits do it, where they start yelling at each other in session?
BENJAMIN: When that happened, when somebody said in the middle of the speech that the president was making "you lie," all hell broke loose. Everybody had a nervous breakdown because we dared to question the president.
BELZER: You don`t do it in that forum. You`re not going to condone that racist scream now, are you?
BENJAMIN: Doesn`t parliament do it?
BEHAR: Parliament does it in a specific place. They have a time and a place.
BELZER: It`s called question time?
BENJAMIN: But will there be -- are we saying right now there would be rules then specifically for question time?
BELZER: Of course.
BEHAR: They need a time out to just yell at each other to their face instead of behind their backs.
BENJAMIN: Then there should be rules that -- would the rules say when you do that it would not be racist, as you suggest. That it would be ok...
BELZER: I`m saying he`s racist because at the moment -- first of all, the most important issue to him is the confederate flag over his state capitol. The thing that Obama was talking about is immigration and the guy yelled out "you lie." Here`s the first mixed race president talking about immigration from a guy with racist policies yelling out "you lie," you put the math together.
BENJAMIN: I`m not saying that he was racist or he wasn`t, I`m saying there`s a place for dissent. And you`re saying...
BELZER: Yes. But not there; not at that moment.
(CROSS TALK)
BELZER: In England they have it. You can`t make it overnight and let one nut redefine how the country runs itself.
BEHAR: Exactly.
BELZER: When the president gives a speech, you don`t interrupt. You may interrupt at other times. Excuse me.
BEHAR: Try to talk to me, Richard, ok, I`m in the room. Now, Fox. The White House is also starting a fight with Fox.
BELZER: Fox? Yes, go ahead.
BEHAR: Fox is making hay with this. Because, you know, listen to what Limbaugh said yesterday, by the way about his own situation.
BELZER: Yes. We`ll talk about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This is not about the NFL. It`s not about the St. Louis Rams. It`s not about me. This is about the ongoing effort by the left in this country, wherever you find them -- in the media, the Democrat party, wherever -- to destroy conservatism. To prevent the mainstreaming of anyone who is prominent as a conservative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was one example of the right wing taking on the whole left, in this case the NFL. But also Glenn Beck has been making statements that he is also a victim in this. And Fox news is the victim of the White House`s attack, it`s un-American, it`s unpatriotic, et cetera. What do you think of all that?
BENJAMIN: Didn`t you just get finished saying there should be many parties and many voices, et cetera, but yet Fox is being -- is not ok?
BELZER: You don`t think that Fox lies continually -- there are books written about it, they`ve made racist and misogynist...
BENJAMIN: They have, that`s true. That`s the allegations.
BELZER: They say they`re attacking the conservatives. They had the President, the Vice President, the Supreme Court, the Congress and the Senate. They`re not mainstream?
BENJAMIN: Last time...
BELZER: They`ve ruined the country now they`re complaining.
BENJAMIN: Last time I checked actually, we have a constitution that protects -- has a first amendment that protects freedom of speech. You can actually say many sorts of misogynist and...
BELZER: So you`re condoning what Fox does?
BENJAMIN: I`m condoning anything.
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Richie, she has a point.
BELZER: The White House is firing back at this thing that`s been going on for years, that constantly lies, has veiled racism, misogyny, the most despicable things are said on that network everyday...
BENJAMIN: Calling them out is fine.
BEHAR: They should be called out.
BENJAMIN: Doesn`t mean they shouldn`t exist.
BELZER: The White House isn`t saying don`t exist.
BENJAMIN: They`re saying that they`re a tool of the right. That`s what they`re saying.
BELZER: They`re not? What are they? They`re just a tool. They`re just a tool.
BEHAR: I can`t get you to talk to me.
BENJAMIN: His fault, it`s not my fault.
BEHAR: Change seats. I want you to change seats right now. Change seats.
BENJAMIN: We can`t. We`re tethered to the table.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back and they`ll be sitting where they`re supposed to be sitting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my political panel and they`re sitting in their correct seats.
Now, we touched on Rush Limbaugh in the last segment. I want to bring you up to date on something else about him. He has lost his bid to buy the St. Louis rams. Ok? A radio host stood up to him last night on Anderson Cooper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW MILHAVEN, KTRS RADIO, ST. LOUIS: There are people out there, especially some St. Louis sports writers, who don`t like rush Limbaugh`s politics. And they make up quotes and do anything they can do to besmirch the man, to defile him, so that they make it as -- as awful as possible so that the NFL says, this is too toxic, I don`t want to touch it. This is a high-tech lynching.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Before you respond, listen to Limbaugh`s reaction yesterday.
"This is not about the NFL, it`s not about the St. Louis rams, he said. It`s not about me. This is about the ongoing effort by the left in this country, meaning you Richard, wherever you find them, in the media, the Democratic party, wherever, to destroy conservatism, to prevent the mainstreaming of anyone who is a prominent as a conservative.
Is this a conspiracy? What`s going on with him? He`s really taking this very personally.
BELZER: Clearly it`s embarrassing. But I`m shocked that Rush is upset over this decision. It`s -- this is a capitalist country. His business partners have determined that he would be a liability to this business deal. So he`s out.
Isn`t that capitalism? Capitalism is a shark. He`s a victim of it. It wouldn`t have been a good deal so what`s he complaining about?
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s a good point.
BENJAMIN: They didn`t know who he was when they had him to begin with.
BELZER: Clearly they knew.
BENJAMIN: I`d like to know who else in the whole NFL, what silent partners are out there, what they have said...
BELZER: That`s a great -- why don`t you do it -- that`s a great idea.
BENJAMIN: I`m not a sports reporter.
BELZER: It`s beyond sports though, that story.
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Isn`t Rush Limbaugh in the mainstream? He acts like he`s not.
BELZER: This whole thing of conservatives saying they`re not in the mainstream, as we all know, it`s the biggest crock. They have the courts, they had the presidency, they had the Congress, they have their own network.
BEHAR: But he`s not a politician. I guess that`s what he means -- he`s just a radio -- just like Glenn Beck they`re kind of on the sidelines provoking and provoking.
BELZER: They`re fascist stooges who in the true sense of that word, that`s not hyperbole...
BENJAMIN: Why should he not own a team?
BEHAR: They don`t want him.
BELZER: Well, because other businessmen...
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: He not only has said things about -- that could be construed as racist he also attacked the NFL. They don`t like him, they don`t want him to be part of the situation there.
BENJAMIN: The only thing he said -- things that are construed as racist about a certain player in the NFL if I remember correctly.
BELZER: Yes. Donovan McNabb.
BENJAMIN: But they knew that at the outset. I would say it was a dumb business decision to actually have the guy as a partner to begin with.
BELZER: Right. I agree with you.
BEHAR: Well, that`s possibly true.
BELZER: Absolutely, I agree.
BEHAR: He said the NFL is like the gangs, the Crips and the Bloods.
BENJAMIN: He did say that.
BELZER: That`s veiled racism.
BEHAR: That`s very veiled racism.
BENJAMIN: That`s not veiled.
BELZER: Unveiled.
BENJAMIN: Nevertheless the idea that this has not become -- it has become political. He`s not sort of speaking out of turn to say that.
You`re talking about Reverend Al Sharpton who was one of the loudest people crying for him not to have...
BELZER: Right.
BEHAR: I think it`s because of Al Sharpton that he lost the bid to tell you the truth.
BELZER: The players were coming out. The players association -- two of them.
BENJAMIN: Had a lot to do with it.
BELZER: You don`t need Al Sharpton in a case like this. He was just as always showing up at the scene.
BEHAR: I`ll have to call Al Sharpton to see what he says.
We have to go.
BELZER: The show`s over?
BEHAR: Quick, quick.
BELZER: Why are we talking about Limbaugh and Beck?
BEHAR: Why not?
BELZER: No, I mean. So much.
BEHAR: Who knows? Because they`re fire brands.
Thanks to my panel for joining me. We`ll talk a little girl power where we come back. We have to change the subject.
BELZER: I want to talk girl power.
BEHAR: You`re coming back tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`ve come a long way, baby, but was it worth the trip? That`s the question being asked in the latest issue of "Time" magazine.
Men aren`t the only ones asking. Joining me to discuss why, with all the gains we`ve made, women are less happy today than we were 30 years ago, are Sirius XM Radio Talk Show host Judith Regan, and Carol Jenkins, president of the Women`s Media Center. Welcome, ladies, to the show.
JENKINS: Hi, Joy.
REGAN: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Thank you for coming.
(LAUGHTER)
Now, since 1972, this is a study that`s been tracking us for all these years, we are living longer, we`re making more money, we`re more educated.
I mean, for example, 32 percent of women are now lawyers. In 1970 it was 3 percent, 28 percent of MDs are female now, in 1970, only 8 percent. We`ve really made tremendous strides I think in the past 30 years. And yet the information is that we are not happy. Why are we not happy?
CAROL JENKINS, PRESIDENT, WOMEN`S MEDIA CENTER: Because men are still not doing the housework. They`re not taking care of the kids.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s true.
JENKINS: They`re not in the house.
BEHAR: They`re not, yes.
JUDITH REGAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: They`re absent.
But first of all, I don`t believe this.
BEHAR: You don`t believe it?
REGAN: No, I think --
BEHAR: Why not?
REGAN: These surveys are skewed in a lot of different ways. Number one, women are a lot more verbal than men, so they complain a lot more. They don`t have any problems telling you they have a problem.
My daughter and my son, ten years ago, you will never hear a complaint from my son, never. You talk to my daughter, the sky is falling, it`s a disaster, it`s a drama.
Same with my mother and father. My father, he`s very stoic. He doesn`t say, "I suffer." So men don`t tell the truth about their suffering. They consider it a sign of weakness. So they`re not going to tell you they`re miserable and unhappy.
BEHAR: My father used to grunt. That was miss main form of communication.
REGAN: On the other hand, I have a very vocal son. My son complains much more than my daughter. I wouldn`t want to fall quite in those stereotypes.
I understand what you`re saying, though, about how that might tilt a poll when they`re being asked a question.
BEHAR: You know, in 1970 when I guess the second wave of the feminist movement began, right, 1970, women decided we`re not just staying home and having children, we`re going to go out to work.
So over these last 30 years we`ve been working and taking care of the kids and cleaning the house and doing everything. Do you think we`re just overstressed and that`s the problem?
JENKINS: Look, I think we`re very overstressed. When I look at my life, my mother`s life, my grandmother`s life -- my grandmother came to this country as an indentured servant from Sicily. Her mother died in childbirth. They lived in abject poverty. She came here without an education, couldn`t write her name.
She married. She had nine children. She had no washing machine. She had no money. She lived through the Depression.
But my grandmother did not have the expectations that I have. She was a woman who was dedicated to her children. She had 100 Virgin Marys around the house. She was deeply religious. And she was a happy person, because she believed that her family would fulfill her. She believed in god. She had a different purpose.
My mother had five children. She graduated --
BEHAR: Wow. Very retile, your family.
(LAUGHTER)
JENKINS: But she was number one in her class in high school. But women of her generation and in her family didn`t go to college. So she had a life of some disappointment because of that. Right? She struggled --
BEHAR: She was in the middle there.
REGAN: You have to take into consideration, though, that many women in this country today are poor, are raising children by themselves, are not making what men are making doing the same work, have a great deal of difficulty fulfilling themselves.
And it is stress. I think that if we just look at health disparities of women in color in this country, we`ve got a major, major problem. So I don`t think we can quite say we`ve come that far. There are so many women and so many children, mostly women and children living in poverty in this country today who don`t have medical care.
BEHAR: And don`t have food --
REGAN: I don`t want to diminish that that exists. But Joy --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s across the board, this study.
REGAN: It`s across the board but I think --
BEHAR: Some of it is an existential malaise that`s going on.
(LAUGHTER)
REGAN: It is. And I believe that women and men by the way, the thing that makes them happy is relationships. Material things do not make people happy. Health care, yes.
BEHAR: Are you sure?
(LAUGHTER)
JENKINS: No, I am sure. Now, having money does not make --
BEHAR: I know so many happy label whores you can`t imagine.
REGAN: It doesn`t make people happy. Not having money makes people miserable. Not having health care makes people suffer, there`s no doubt about it.
I`ve been rich and I`ve been poor and rich is better. But the truth is what fulfills human beings at the end of the day? It`s relationships. Relationships become so fractured in this country because families are broken, you know, parents are living here, they`re not married, the family unit is broken.
There`s really no -- communities have disintegrated.
BEHAR: To that point, listen to this statistic -- 54 percent of the women believe it is possible for a woman to have a fulfilling life if she remains single.
JENKINS: Of course, and I`ve been single for 17 years and I`ve had a very fulfilling life.
BEHAR: So you`re saying you need a relationship, you might not.
REGAN: Not a male/female relationship. People need to have relationships.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: In that case women should be happier, because we`re good at that. The men are the ones who have trouble with relationships with friends and colleagues and everything else. We`re the ones who have the community thing going on.
REGAN: But one of the things that we have is that, you know, in many -- with many of my friends, even in my case too, what we find is that our children will not have as secure and as good of lives as we`ve had, that because of the economy, because of the social fabric that we have, they`re not as well-educated. They`re not -- they don`t have jobs. They don`t have fulfilling lives.
BEHAR: Look, Carol --
JENKINS: So I think that if you`re looking at women and you`re looking at what they project for their project, here`s a piece of it. If they can`t project as fabulous a career, a future, as you`ve had --
BEHAR: I see.
REGAN: That impacts your happiness.
BEHAR: I did not have money when I was a kid. I grew up in a tenement in Brooklyn.
REGAN: But happy.
BEHAR: Although indentured servants as little bit much. That was extreme.
JENKINS: My grandmother had my mother when she was 47. She was very, very old.
BEHAR: Oh, my goodness. Well, 47 is a chicken nowadays.
JENKINS: I know. But back then.
BEHAR: I went to Queens College, and it was $24 a term then.
JENKINS: Right.
BEHAR: You know, you didn`t really have to have a lot of money to go to school. It seems like it`s costing too much money now to be an American. I think you have a point with that.
REGAN: Our prospects are dim. For the moment we`re a country with dimmed prospects. And I think that what we`re looking for is that hope to make possibility again.
BEHAR: I don`t know what you did, but I had a child first, and then I had a career. And I think that it was a little bit easier for me in that sense of not being overstressed by the burden of both at the same time.
Women are trying to do everything at once. It`s a little tricky.
REGAN: I think that the issue there --
BEHAR: You had the job first?
JENKINS: I had the child and the job. I raised two kids by myself. I did everything by myself.
BEHAR: You know what you are, you`re an indentured servant.
(LAUGHTER)
REGAN: I`m an indentured servant to my children. I`ve been a slave to love.
BEHAR: I`ve heard about that.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
REGAN: I had the job and the parents because I was in that sandwich generation where for 30 years I was raising small children, having a career, or attempting to have one, and taking care of ailing parents.
JENKINS: OK, I think one of the important things is my grandmother took care of me when I was growing up. So she helped my mother. We all lived in the same house. My grandmother lived with us. My mother helped raise my children. She lived with me.
REGAN: That`s important. It takes a village.
JENKINS: It takes a village. It`s a really unusual thing to have that in this day and age. And I think the central thing that is stressing women out when they have little children is child care.
REGAN: That`s right.
JENKINS: We do not have access to affordable child care in this country and it is a disgrace.
BEHAR: They`re saying in this study too that the fact that we have the children is a real factor in the unhappy innocence a certain way.
REGAN: Because there`s no support.
BEHAR: But there`s a biological imperative that only women seem to have, and men get off on this point.
REGAN: That`s because men can go on and on and on.
BEHAR: There`s no way to get around that though. We want to have children to keep the species going.
JENKINS: That`s why we have to have affordable child care.
BEHAR: Exactly.
JENKINS: And it`s extremely important to support --
BEHAR: This country is not a reality about things like that.
REGAN: They have to get into reality about that.
REGAN: I`m a new grandmother and I`m opting for curtailing one`s work life and going back in to help the children.
BEHAR: You have done that.
REGAN: I have done that.
BEHAR: Thank you for doing that.
JENKINS: I`m with my granddaughter on Fridays and soon it will be two days.
REGAN: Do you really want to do that?
JENKINS: I do, I do.
REGAN: You want to go back to that?
JENKINS: It`s the most important thing to me.
BEHAR: Seriously? I don`t know if I would love that now.
(LAUGHTER)
REGAN: My son just got married, I don`t know.
BEHAR: My daughter got married last year too. But she`s taking her time, so I don`t know. There`s no nana in my future.
REGAN: It`s the best. It is the best, to make up for all those working years when you didn`t have time to go to the classes.
REGAN: But a lot of people don`t have the luxury of that.
BEHAR: It`s a fortune if you want to send them to private school. If you can`t send them to a good school you have to come up with the cash for that.
Thanks so much for doing this. It`s a very interesting subject. Thanks to my guests, fascinating topic.
More on the subject of women`s happiness on Monday`s show with Marcus Buckingham, author of "Find your Strongest Life: What the Happiest and most Successful Women do Differently." That will be interesting. I`m looking forward to that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest is one of the stars of TV`s "Nurse Jackie" and also a brilliantly playwright. Her latest work is "Let me Down Easy" where she plays a busload of real-life characters from Lance Armstrong to Lauren Hutton. Now that`s talent.
Please help me welcome Anna Deavere Smith. Hi.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH, ACTRESS/PLAYWRIGHT, "LET ME DOWN EASY": How are you?
BEHAR: So Anna, you have taken a play to another dimension. You interview all these people. And then you basically recite what they say verbatim from your interviews. Yes?
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: And you actually become the character. I saw you become Al Sharpton, and I`ve seen you become a lot of different people. In this particular show, you`re talking about body image, death, and health care. It`s not exactly an up show, but it`s interesting.
SMITH: You don`t think it`s up?
BEHAR: Well, it is, but the subjects are serious topics.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s an up show?
SMITH: I think it`s up that in the end it celebrates life. Maybe that sounds not even authentically up. But I think that in the end it`s about the good part of life.
BEHAR: I mean, you talk -- a few of the characters I want to talk to you about -- Ruth Katz. She is a patient at the Yale New Haven hospital.
SMITH: Or she was.
BEHAR: And tell the audience about her. What happened?
SMITH: Well, she -- they lost her records. And the young lad who was the doctor didn`t seem very interested or care very much that he lost her records then asked her in the normal course of events what she did for a living, which would be part of the rote thing she does.
And she just played along with it, and in the end she said, I`m associate Dean of the medical school. And they went around and found the records within half an hour.
SMITH: So suddenly they paid attention. So what does that say about the health care system in this country?
SMITH: It says two things. One, that even a person like Ruth Katz who has a lot of advantages and was getting great attention while she was at Yale, and Yale is an extraordinary institution, even she was a victim of sort of carelessness.
BEHAR: Negligence.
SMITH: Until she had to speak up and, you know --
BEHAR: Throw her weight around.
SMITH: Throw her weight around.
BEHAR: Eve Ensler is another character that you do. She`s the creator of "The Vagina Monologues," and she`s always got something interesting to say. She`s talking about models and skinny models and how they can`t eat because they can`t think --
SMITH: Anorexic girls.
BEHAR: So what was her point? That was quite interesting there.
SMITH: I think that she`s tying the fact that in our culture we don`t want to look at the fact that the rumor is true, like we`re not going to live forever. Our inability to look at that, you know, she`s tying that to some other kinds of behaviors that we have, and in this case the obsession with the body. And she talks about --
BEHAR: So the obsession with the body is like a distraction from this horrible truth that we`re all going to die.
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: I see. That was very -- yes. She made that jump.
There are other things that distract us too. Shopping is a distraction from death also. Comedy is a distraction from death. Dancing.
SMITH: But comedy`s probably the most about death, right?
BEHAR: Well, it`s the antithesis of death. Laugh or cry. So I choose comedy. I like that. That`s my defense.
SMITH: Some of the funniest people who I talk to, two of them, one Governor Ann Richards -- the late Governor Ann Richards, and the other the late Joe Segal, both, even though I talked to them when they were close to death, get the biggest laughs in the show.
BEHAR: I know they do, I know.
SMITH: What does that mean to you as a comic?
BEHAR: It means we don`t change that much at the end. Which is one of the things that Eduardo Bruera, who was a palliative care physician, was it?
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: And he is dealing with the dead -- deadly -- what is the word, people who are dying, all the time. And he makes a very interesting point that if you look back on your life and you see how you`ve handled loss over your life, divorce, parents have died, other tragedies, you will see -- this was so interesting to me -- you will see how you behaved in those situations, and you can almost predict how you`re going to behave at the end of your life when you get that final, you know, what`s the word?
SMITH: Bad news.
BEHAR: Bad news. Do you think that`s true?
SMITH: I think it is true. I mean, I don`t know. But it made a lot of sense to me. And I interviewed over 300 people to make this project. And so I only performed 20 in the show. So anybody who shows up in the show is somebody who made a lot of sense to me.
BEHAR: Yes. Now, do you think that this show -- a lot of it is about the health care industry, which we`re all talking about right now.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: And we`re having a little trouble getting that health care thing through. The Baucus bill I guess is one thing that`s on the table. It eliminates the public option, which would allow poor people to buy inexpensive insurance. What do you think about all of that?
SMITH: Well, I think it`s a disgrace that we even have an argument about whether or not we should be having a culture in this country where everybody can be taken care of. Everybody needs to be taken care of and we have the money somewhere in this country to take care of people.
BEHAR: So if we`re afraid of dying which is one of the themes of your show, then why not deal with it in a realistic manner? People die, everybody has an end. Why not make that as easy as possible as inexpensively as it can be without destroying people`s financial lives and everything else?
Why are people resistant to that? You`re an artist.
SMITH: Yes.
Well, I think that one of the other characters, the Dean of Medicine at Stanford Medical Center, you know, sort of says we`re going to have to look at this, because it goes right to the economics of what we`re spending. We`re going to have to think about not just how we live but how we die. But we don`t do that in this culture.
And in the show he`s followed by a musicologist who talks about Schubert, the great classical composer. And she points out in Vienna when Schubert was alive and writing music, whenever somebody died, they would ring these bells so that everybody in the parish could stop and pray for whoever it was. They wouldn`t know who it was.
And I think, you know, in this culture, we -- there are lots of ways that we avoid death, as you`ve mentioned earlier in our conversation here.
So for us to get our head around living better I think is going to call for a real cultural shift that`s pretty substantive.
BEHAR: It`s interesting that Schubert who died I think at 32 years old --
SMITH: He died at 32.
BEHAR: He died of syphilis, which was the AIDS of that period. There was no cure for syphilis until that magic bullet came along.
SMITH: Those were the bad days. I`m glad I missed those.
SMITH: But back to Ann Richards for a second, Governor Richards. She was full of life as a person who was in the world. So in a way it was logical she would go out -- I mean, -- she wasn`t afraid of death, you know. One of my favorite things she ever said was George W. Bush was born with a silver foot in his mouth. She was very funny.
(LAUGHTER)
SMITH: She was very funny. But you were too at that same convention. I remember you going up to Al Sharpton and saying, Al, you do all these marches, how come you never lose a pound?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I did say that to Al. You know what he said to me? He said Joy, Joy, that`s because I eat after the march he said.
SMITH: I thought that was -- the way you remember the silver foot.
BEHAR: Do you remember that?
SMITH: I`ll never forget it.
BEHAR: I think he remembers it too.
OK, we`ll be back with more Anna Deavere Smith after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with one of the stars of Showtime`s "Nurse Jackie," Anna Deavere Smith. You co-star on "Nurse Jackie" with Edie Falco. Let`s look at that.
SMITH: Oh, good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FALCO: What is that? I have been looking for sweetener all over this place for three days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Struck you funny, huh? You know, Falco`s character is a pill- popping nurse. I like the show very much, by the way. I`m really a fan of yours.
SMITH: Thank you. Mutual.
BEHAR: Thank you.
But the American Nurses Association is in a `tissy over this. They say that you`re making nurses look bad.
SMITH: I`m not writing it.
BEHAR: Defend yourself, woman.
SMITH: I`m not making nurses look bad.
BEHAR: But you`re there.
SMITH: I`m probably making hospital administrators look bad. My character Gloria Akalidas...
BEHAR: I love your character. She is a little loony.
SMITH: She`s like the authority figure in the circus. She has no real authority. It`s about the clowns. Edie Falco really runs the hospital.
BEHAR: Do you think that as an artist you have some kind of an obligation to fulfill the image that a nurse, let`s say a real nurse has of herself or a hospital nurse has of herself?
SMITH: That`s a really great, deep question. I don`t think so. I mean, I guess -- that`s really a heavy duty question, because on the other hand we would say as a black woman, do I have a responsibility -- I mean, that`s a deep question.
I think in this case, this show is really about moral ambiguity. And people stop me on the street and love the show. I think it`s because they know they live in a world where things just --
BEHAR: Nothing`s perfect. People are not perfect. And she is a very good nurse as a matter of fact.
SMITH: She`s a good human being.
BEHAR: And a good person. But she happens to have this little thing. She commits adultery, she pops pills.
(LAUGHTER)
She`s not perfect.
When you played the national security adviser in "West Wing," that was a great part for you, too. Did you think at that time you would ever see an African-American become president in this country?
SMITH: No. Here`s the interesting thing. When I got cast in that as the national security adviser, it was right before Bush -- he was running, and there was little chatter around that Condoleezza Rice might become national security adviser, and I knew her because I taught at Stanford while she was provost, blah, blah, blah.
And I walked that walk up to Aaron and I said, gee, by putting me in this role are you thinking about Condoleezza Rice. And he said, "Who?" So my little joke is I`m the first black woman national security adviser.
(LAUGHTER)
But I did not think we would see the stay we would see an African- American president, and I couldn`t be more pleased and happy that it has happened.
BEHAR: A one-woman show is "Let me Down Easy," Anna Deavere Smith, thank you.
And thank you all for watching. Goodnight, everybody.
END
