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CNN NEWSROOM

Sheriff Banned from Making Arrests

Aired October 19, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Coming at you now, the first pictures of where the non-balloon boy could have hidden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JIM ALDERDEN, LARIMER COUNTY, COLORADO: It has been determined that this is a hoax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: We're following this story of possible deception.

The cartoon that targets what often isn't talked about: women as political targets from the left and the right. We're on it.

In Iran, a spectacular suicide attack, high-ranking officers among those killed and now the U.S. is being blamed.

CNN has gained access to one of the biggest dog raids and rescues ever just outside Atlanta. Fighting dogs chained, emaciated. Why the national fascination with watching dogs kill each other? You'll see our special report.

All this right now on your national conversation for Monday, October 19th, 2009.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez with the next generation of news. This is a conversation, it's not a speech. And as always, it's your turn to get involved. That's how we do it.

Well, perhaps not since Bull Connor whose aggressive police tactics against blacks in the South sparked civil rights legislation in 1964 has our country seen a showdown like the one going on right now between Maricopa County sheriff Joe Arpaio and Washington, as in the feds.

You heard it here on Friday, right? Immigration and Customs Enforcement assistant secretary came on the air and told me that while they do want local sheriffs around the country to help with immigration issues and immigration arrests, he specifically said they don't want Sheriff Joe Arpaio's help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FRIDAY)

JOHN MORTON, ASST. HOMELAND SECURITY SECY., ICE: At the end of the day, I feel that the sweeps that he conducts in Maricopa County aren't consistent with our priorities as an agency, and that's, namely, to identify and remove serious criminal aliens from the streets of Arizona.

SANCHEZ: What's he doing wrong?

MORTON: His sweeps are overbroad. They don't have a particular focus or priority on criminal offenders. And he does it in a way that isn't marked by cooperation and coordination within the communities that he serves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: He says Arpaio's sweeps are wrong. He says they don't have focus.

Meanwhile, Arpaio's balloon boy slip-up may have come during an interview with me just about a week and a half ago, where he may have actually confirmed exactly what the feds were talking about there where they were explaining what the Arpaio's M.O. is and is not. About when they say that his probable cause criteria for arresting people may be questionable.

I want you to listen to this. This is how Arpaio described for me how he determines who is an illegal alien. This is important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question -- how do you know when you arrest someone that they're illegal?

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Well, first of all, Rick, we do it pursuant to our duties. When we come across someone on another crime and we find out that they are illegal, we take action. If those that have not committed a crime, we have the training, we still do, we turn them over to ICE. It's very simple.

SANCHEZ: But wait a minute. You just said you detain people who haven't committed a crime. How do you prove that they're not illegal?

ARPAIO: It has to do with their conduct, what type of clothes they're wearing, their speech. They admit it. They have phony I.D.s. A lot of variables involved.

SANCHEZ: You judge people and arrest them based on their speech and the clothes that they're wearing, sir?

ARPAIO: No, when they're in a vehicle with someone that has committed a crime, we have the right to talk to those people. When they admit they are here illegally, we take action.

SANCHEZ: But you just told me -- let's go back here -- you just told me that you arrest people and turn them over to the feds even if they haven't committed a crime.

ARPAIO: The federal -- no, they did commit a crime. They are here illegally.

SANCHEZ: Well, how did you know they were here illegally? And then you went on to tell me it's because of the clothes they wore.

ARPAIO: Well, you look at the federal law. The federal law specifies the speech, the clothes, the environment, the erratic behavior -- it's right in the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Well, the feds say it's not in the law. That was an interview that I did 11 days ago with Sheriff Arpaio, who's good enough to join us again, by the way.

Sheriff, it's always good to see you, sir.

ARPAIO: Yes, you're on the same kick. Go ahead, Rick.

SANCHEZ: All right. It looks like John McCain, though, is coming to your defense. I mean, some people might see it that way. He's asking Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, who's a fellow Arizonan as you know, worked with you for many years -- why she is specifically -- he wants to know why she's stripping you of your federal arrest privileges.

What do you make of McCain coming out and saying that or asking for that?

ARPAIO: Well, I don't know. I know the reason why, it's all politics. I can go back when the Obama administration took office, I'm not going to -- you don't have the time. But let me just say this -- you say I violate the law. We arrested 66 more over the weekend, 30 happened to be illegal. Human smuggling suspects going into the workplace -- we have state laws, Rick.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: But you're specifically told not to do that. But you -- well, hold on. You know, you're coming right in here and giving us the information that, I suppose, we were looking for, and that is, you just heard an ICE representative go on the air and question several things about your sweeps. They don't want you to do them. They question what you use as probable cause.

I mean, they got a lot of problems with the way you do your job and they don't want you to do it. That's what he told us on national television.

ARPAIO: Well, you know, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I have the right as sheriff to do crime suppression and lock up those that violate the law. He can't tell me, the federal government, to -- how I enforce the laws of the state of Arizona.

And number two, we turned over 19 over the weekend -- 19 illegal aliens to ICE and they weren't charged with anything. We came across them pursuant to our crime suppression.

SANCHEZ: But, you know what -- I mean, I'm just going to make the argument, sir, and you follow me here.

The way the U.S. Constitution is written is you can't do unlawful searches and seizures. In other words, yes, if you go out there today and take in 100 people, there's a good chance that 18 or 19 of them may be thieves who have stolen something or have fake I.D.s or you'll find something on them. But the other 20 or the other -- or pardon me -- the other 81 may be innocent and you've violated their constitutional rights. That's what the feds are saying that you're doing.

Do you buy it and what's your response?

ARPAIO: Well, if we violated, why did they accept them for being illegal over the weekend with no other charge other than being here illegally?

SANCHEZ: Well, what about the other people that -- who you -- who you interfered in their lives simply while you were looking for someone else?

ARPAIO: I didn't interfere with anybody. The others that were illegal, we put them in jail because they have committed other crimes.

SANCHEZ: Now, we come back to the same question, though, about how you know that they were illegal if you didn't use a method of probable cause that we are not supposed to use in this country? There are 25 years of laws and standards used by police departments where they're real careful about probable cause so we don't create a Gestapo environment in this country.

ARPAIO: We're using the same criteria as the U.S. Border Patrol does everybody, arresting thousands of people who come into this country and that's under homeland security.

SANCHEZ: But the U.S. Border Patrol is on the border. You are nowhere near the border.

ARPAIO: Well...

SANCHEZ: You're literally going into people's neighborhoods and into schools. This weekend, you went into a carwash to essentially decide for yourself who was here illegally and not illegally. And the feds are saying they don't want you doing that.

ARPAIO: No, no, the feds are not saying that. He has -- he has said all along that I have the right to do crime suppression operations. I just don't have the authority right now to utilize his credentials under that 287. But we don't need it.

SANCHEZ: Let's listen, well, let -- OK, let's listen to it again.

Do me a favor, Dan, if you could, that sound bite we ran just a little while ago. Let's listen to it together. And this interview was very lengthy. We just cut out the part where we thought we were trying to get the essence of what he was saying. Michael, have we got that yet?

All right. Let's play it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORTON: At the end of the day, I feel that the sweeps that he conducts in Maricopa County aren't consistent with our priorities as an agency and that's namely to identify and remove serious criminal aliens from the streets of Arizona.

SANCHEZ: What's he doing wrong?

MORTON: His sweeps are overbroad. They don't have a particular focus or priority on criminal offenders. And he does it in a way that isn't marked by cooperation and coordination within the communities that he serves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: I mean, that sounds like they're being very critical and very specific that they don't want you to do this. At least that's what I was hearing.

ARPAIO: Well, what...

SANCHEZ: What were you hearing?

ARPAIO: What is he, the sheriff of Maricopa County? Who is he to tell me?

SANCHEZ: He's the assistant director of ICE.

ARPAIO: Well, he doesn't run the sheriff. He doesn't tell me how to do my law enforcement when I go out...

SANCHEZ: Well, you're not going to...

ARPAIO: ... when I go out...

SANCHEZ: Like Bull Connor in 1960s, you're going to sit there and tell the feds, you don't care what they say, you're going to do it your way and you're going to do it when you want to do it?

ARPAIO: No, they don't tell me how to do my job enforcing state laws. I worked 25 years as a top Justice Department drug enforcement official. I think I know the federal law and how to operate under the federal blanket. So...

SANCHEZ: All right. Well, for the record, they're saying you don't and they're saying you're violating it.

ARPAIO: Then come on after me, if he thinks I'm violating any of the federal laws.

SANCHEZ: All right. We'll ask him and we'll go back to Janet Napolitano to ask her what she -- by the way, what's your relationship like with her?

ARPAIO: With Janet?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

ARPAIO: I've worked with her for 17 years.

SANCHEZ: No, now, since she's become director. When was the last conversation you had with her?

ARPAIO: Well, you know what? She has her job. She has to report to the White House. I report to 4 million people. There's a big difference. I'm elected.

SANCHEZ: So, I take it, you haven't had a conversation with Janet Napolitano lately?

ARPAIO: No, I have not.

SANCHEZ: OK. One final thing. A lot of people are saying, Sheriff, that basically, this is a political move by you. That you know that to get elected in Arizona, you've got to come off as the guy who's going after those folks...

ARPAIO: Oh, come on!

SANCHEZ: ... and by golly, the nativists can keep you in office for an awful long time.

ARPAIO: You know...

SANCHEZ: That's what they're writing in newspapers all over the western states.

ARPAIO: Well, they don't understand.

SANCHEZ: What is your response to that?

ARPAIO: I've been re-elected five times. I get reelected on Tent City, chain gangs, pink underwear, how I enforce the laws. I just took up this problem two or three years ago and I've been re- elected five times.

SANCHEZ: Well, but the argument is that you do those things because it gets you a lot of publicity and it makes people think you're on their side and, you know, to hell with the feds and to hell with the Constitution and that's very popular. And it makes the nativists in Arizona come out and vote for you in huge numbers. That's why people say you do it.

Is that true?

ARPAIO: Well, you called me. I didn't call you. The publicity -- they called me. I just respond. I don't have anything to hide.

SANCHEZ: I'm not talking about the publicity, sir. I'm talking about the fact that you do these things knowing that it will attract and appeal to a certain segment in our society and those are the people who continually vote for you. What do you say about that?

ARPAIO: Well, maybe -- maybe the United States...

SANCHEZ: Is it true? There's nothing wrong with it.

ARPAIO: Maybe the United States will understand that this is an illegal activity and maybe it's a deterrence. I do it for deterrence.

SANCHEZ: Excellent. Joe Arpaio -- Sheriff, as usual, it's always a spirited conversation and a good interview when I have you on, sir. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

ARPAIO: Anytime, Rick.

SANCHEZ: By the way, later on in the hour, we're going to be talking to one of the journalists who's covered Sheriff Arpaio for many years now. Ruben Navarette (ph) is going to be joining me in just a little bit. He has been writing some critical columns about the sheriff of late. We'll get his perspective. That's coming up in about 20 minutes or so.

Coming up next, though, new details on the balloon hoax. Where exactly did the boy hide? See that right there? Look inside that little trap.

Nobody has ever seen this before. I'm going to show it to you from a couple of different angles. That's where supposedly he would have been when they looked inside or when they finally did look inside. Watching to see now if charges are going to be filed against the family, it's kind of looking like that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALDERDEN: As I said, this is -- it has been determined that this is a hoax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Investigators, you heard him right there, are now saying there was something that they suspected all along. Really? Why did they tell us the family had behaved normally at the very beginning, at the outset of this investigation? Just asking and I will again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez standing by here in New York City just off of Columbus circle. I'm going to be doing the 8:00 show tonight filling in for Campbell Brown.

Meantime, what? You really didn't think we'd let today go by without saying the words balloon boy, did you? Well, here's the news on the family in Colorado that everyone seems to be smitten by. They may get slapped with charges, including conspiracy. So it's not just a misdemeanor as Jeffrey Toobin alluded to with me here last Friday.

In fact, it's looking like, it could be quite serious. Even you could see from the expression of the police officers as they talked to reporters for the very first time about this.

And here's the conspiracy part, allegedly. There's another guy and according to the associated press and the Denver area news reports, he and the balloon boy's dad, Richard Heene, planned to stage a stunt to get the nation's attention. And as you saw right here with me on Kyra Phillips on Thursday, for a couple of hours, they certainly succeeded in getting the nation's attention.

Now, I want you to watch this. This is how all the networks covered the empty balloon's flight. And we'll take you through it. First, the weird events that followed after that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A six-year-old boy is inside this. But this is basically what we're getting from officials in Larimer County right now.

SHEPPARD SMITH, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: We believe there is a little boy in this balloon, and it's been flying now for about an hour at least. It was attached in his father's backyard and now it's going around in circles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What a relief to find out hours after the thing came down that Falcon Heene had been hiding in the rafters of the family's garage. Then the hours and hours of yakking began and people realized that the father had already made a spectacle of himself on "wife swap."

RICHARD HEENE, FALCON HEENE'S FATHER: Wait a second, did you not sign up to swap lives with another woman? Did you? Did you? No, I'm talking. I asked you a question? Did you or did you not? There you go. Jesus, you're impossible. What I'm telling you right now is I need you to pass out these fliers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was bizarre, hours after learning that their son was not dead, the parents begin hitting the TV circuit, from "LARRY KING LIVE" to the morning shows on ABC, NBC and CBS.

R. HEENE: He's asking, Falcon, did you hear us calling your name at any time?

FALCON HEENE: Uh-huh. R. HEENE: You did?

MAYUMI HEENE, FALCON HEENE'S MOTHER: You did?

R. HEENE: Why didn't you come out?

FALCON HEENE, FOUND TO NOT BE IN MYLAR BALLOON: You guys said that we did this for the show.

SANCHEZ: What did he mean we did this for the show?

R. HEENE: I have no idea.

SANCHEZ: What did Falcon mean when he said, we did this for a show?

R. HEENE: Well, first of all, let's clarify, he's six, and I don't know that he really understood the question that was being asked him -- one of the guys told me it was for the TV show. So, that's what he was referring to.

You had said, we did this for a show?

R. HEENE: I think he's queasy. Should we take you to the bathroom or something?

F. HEENE: Yes.

RICHARD HEENE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: I decided to show you that after watching it yesterday morning when I woke up before watching football. I saw it on Howie Kurtz and "RELIABLE SOURCES".

We thank them by the way, the staff and how to put that together in such a good chronological order so you see how this whole thing. I mean, you almost have to compartmentalize it and see it part by part to understand why we are, where we are right now. And where are we right now?

We're at the point now where police are basically backing up on their original statement and saying, it looks like something here is amiss, something may be a foul. We'll be telling you as soon as there's a development on this. And it could happen during this hour.

Meanwhile, in Georgia, a massive raid where dogs trained to kill each other are rounded up. It is a CNN exclusive and an ongoing problem. These dogs are chained, they're emaciated or in some cases worse.

Also, a suicide bombing, which you say suicide bombing? What's new Rick Sanchez? I say, it's different, it's in Iran. And five members of the revolutionary guard are taken out. The elite revolutionary guard along with several other people and guess who they're blaming? Us, the United States of America, this is one we all need to know about. I'd be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. You have to figure that this was mentioned this had morning when President Obama received his daily briefing from the CIA. In fact, it made lights go off and alarm bells ring at probably every intelligence service in the world. This concerns Iran and it's important to us. Iran is mostly a Shia Muslim nation but it's having problems with some of its Sunnis. The Sunnis say as a minority, their rights are being trampled. Some have turned to violence.

So, what does the Iranian government do? Tehran sends a delegation of top military commanders to the town in the midst of the trouble, Sarbaz, to try to reassure the Sunnis that everything's fine. And then what happens?

Well, here's what happens. A purported Sunni militant detonates a bomb leaving 42 people dead including five senior commanders of the government's revolutionary guard. Not just small fries, we're talking elite members of the uber-powerful Iranian revolutionary guard. It's the type of thing that Iran wants soon forget, it's the type of thing that smarts. In fact today, Iran already is talking about retaliating, retaliating against whom? Retaliating against us. The United States of America. That's right. Even though Sunni militants are claiming responsibility, they're essentially saying the Iranians are Tehranis, that we did it. I'm going to read you some quotes from Mohammad Ali Jafari, the revolutionary guard's number one.

Today he's saying that this deadly attacked was planned in order to fraud quote "New evidence has been obtained proving the link between yesterday's terrorist attack and the U.S British and Pakistani intelligence services."

And then the general says this, "There will have to be retaliatory measures to punish them."

A certain level of bluster, well, probably so. But no one doubts that Iran settles scores, whether real, imagined or politically advantageous. And, that's why this story needs to be on our radar as part of our national conversation on this show and others. And we'll continue to keep tabs on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: We have grave concern when the sheriff's office comes in and detains everybody and asks everybody for their immigration status when not everybody is listed on the warrant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Sheriff Joe Arpaio making good on his threat of more immigration arrests over the weekend despite a federal law, Ruben Navarrette has written a scathing column about this sheriff. He is covering him since the early '90s. He's going to join me. Also a dog kennel is raided and CNN'S cameras are there. Wait till you hear what happened to these dogs. It's sad but real and now? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We're going to show you some pictures now that -- well, if you're a dog lover, maybe even if you're not, it's probably going to affect you, maybe even break your heart. But also make you try to understand a phenomenon that you wouldn't think sophisticated civilizations would still have to deal with. When we saw something like this, dozens and dozens of dogs and puppies, some cowering in cages, others un-chained, most allegedly malnourished, some injured, allegedly bred to fight.

That's what they found there in this raid in Laurens County in Georgia. It's a private investigator who's taken a personal interest in fighting animal abuse. He led the Sheriff's Department and the Humane Society workers to this site. They have scratches on their faces. The man who owns this wooded property has been charged with felony, animal cruelty. This is about dog fighting. Dog fighting.

Our Brooke Baldwin got access to this actual raid. She went out there and covered it for us. She's going to be coming up in just a little bit after the break to take us through it from beginning to end.

Also from the left and from the right, why are women so often pitted against women in politics? Think about that. Women against women. And it's all about hate in many ways. I want your take on this, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm going to be talking with one of my favorite females in politics, I call her the merster (ph). We'll be back.

(COMMERICIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Just before the break, I showed you some heartbreaking video from a raid on a dog compound in Georgia. A raid nurse (ph) say that dozens of dogs were allegedly being raised to fight under abusive conditions.

CNN's Brooke Baldwin went along for this raid. She's been checking on this for quite a while. I can't imagine it -- I mean, here we are -- what? In 2009 and people are still fighting dogs. It just seems so damned primitive.

I understand you got a couple of pieces of sound for us that kind of tell the picture here. What -- what's the first one? Set that up for us.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're about to hear from Terry Wolf. She's -- she's a tough lady. She --she works with the Dublin-Laurens County Animal Shelter -- that's the local county where we went on this raid. She went into these woods, on this guy's property, Rick -- in the woods, along with sheriff's deputies along with private investigators. They thought, and we're told that they'd be finding 45 dogs. Instead, they found 97. The conditions -- atrocious. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY WOLF, DUBLIN-LAURENS COUNTY HUMANE SOCIETY: Their chains are too short to reach shelter, those who have shelter. The water that they have seems to be recent rainwater with algae in it and we've seen no food bowls. Most of them are very timid. They seem to be human-friendly, but they're attention-starved and they're definitely not socialized. You can tell that they've just -- they've been living out, hidden in the woods, out of sight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So these are pictures, Rick, of some of the dogs. We can't even show you some of the worst stuff. There was a dead puppy tossed in a trash can. I'm not going to show that to you. But I think the picture speak for themselves.

SANCHEZ: And this is all -- I mean, most of these people say, these dogs -- I can't imagine why anybody would do this to a dog unless they needed them for some purpose, and that purpose is they make money by fighting them against each other, right?

BALDWIN: Right. That's the belief. You know, it's money -- it's a lot of things, gambling -- and it's pretty incredible because there's this private investigator out of Atlanta, this firm, Norred and Associates. They really took the lead on this project, and that's how we caught word of this raid and got involved. CNN were able -- we were able to get involved.

And -- and Greg Norred -- they do like corporate, private investigations, but two years ago -- you remember when the Michael Vick story broke two years ago?

SANCHEZ: Yes. Oh, do I ever.

BALDWIN: So, he said, hey, you know what? This is awful. This is criminal. I want to lend my time, my money, my expertise. They went in, they spent -- they're doing this pro bono for this great cause.

Here's Greg Norred.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG NORRED, NORRED AND ASSOCIATES: I'm an animal lover. I've always been an animal lover, and in the wake of the Michael Vick case, I was -- I always thought there might be something I could do about animal -- animal cruelty, and with the type of business that I'm in and the resources that I have, it seems like dog fighting is the best vehicle that I can use to do something about animal cruelty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So they've saved, Rick, about 200, 300 dogs after last week.

SANCHEZ: They bust the guy who runs this place?

BALDWIN: They did. His name is Monte Lloyd (ph). He was arrested that night. Felony animal cruelty, also felony terroristic act -- that's under Georgia law, both felonies. He has posted bond, but, yes, Monte Lloyd (ph) -- he's in a bit of trouble.

SANCHEZ: I understand you've got a full story you're going to bring. I'm going to be -- I'm going to be on tonight on CNN at 8:00, just before "LARRY KING" and after Lou -- can you join me tonight at 8:00 and show me the rest of this video?

BALDWIN: Let's do it. It's a date. It's unbelievable stuff.

SANCHEZ: I'm sure there's a lot of people who are interested in this. Brooke, thanks as usual. Good job.

BALDWIN: The video makes you think that you're watching a war. How can a gang take out a police helicopter? I'm going to show you how something like that can happen. It's unbelievable.

Also, a reporter who's covered Sheriff Joe Arpaio since the early 19's joins me. Ruben Navarrette writes that Joe Arpaio is first and foremost a politician. You heard me ask the sheriff, now I'll ask the journalist.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I hope many of you saw my interview just about 20 minutes ago with Sheriff Joe Arpaio out of Maricopa County. He's sticking to his guns. He says he's doing nothing wrong. The Feds are telling him, back off. We don't want your raids anymore. We don't want your sweeps. We don't think that your police procedure is proper. But he's saying he's going to continue to do these anyway.

You know, it reminds one of the standoff between the Feds and Bull Connor back in the 1960s. It began what today we know as much of the civil rights laws that are written in this country.

Has it gone that far? Let me ask somebody who's followed Joe Arpaio since the 1990s. He's a -- a colleague of mine. He's a -- he's a -- I shouldn't say correspondent. He's a writer. He writes columns. His name is Ruben Navarrette.

Ruben Navarrette writes in San Diego. He says, "that Joe Arpaio has gone rogue." Ruben's good enough to join us now, syndicated columnist, writes for the (ph) "San Diego Union" right?

RUBEN NAVARRETTE, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST, THE SAN DIEGO UNION- TRIBUNE: Right. "Union-Tribune". Thanks, Rick.

SANCHEZ: "Union-Tribune". Thanks. How are you?

NAVARRETTE: Very good, sir. How are you?

SANCHEZ: Did you see the interview I did with the sheriff a little while ago?

NAVARRETTE: I did. I tell you what, Rick, you know, sometimes the immigration debate is like a circus. I'm glad you talked to Sheriff Joe Arpaio. What would a circus be without the clowns?

This guy is incredible. This guys is -- this guy went from cop to cartoon a long time ago. My own background is my dad was a cop for 37 years. I grew up around cops. I feel very comfortable around cops, but today, for a living, I cover politicians. I can tell the difference. The guy you just spoke to is a politician.

SANCHEZ: Yes. You said that in your column, and -- and that's what I -- that's why I have you on, because -- make your argument, if you possibly would, that he's really being more of a politician than a police officer.

NAVARRETTE: Well, it's interesting, Rick, you know, I live in San Diego now but, as you mentioned, for two years in the late '90s, I lived in Phoenix. I met Sheriff Joe Arpaio then. He and I would talk by phone and met each other on several occasions. I interviewed him.

Back then, he wanted nothing at all to do with immigration enforcement. He believed like a majority, like hundreds of police and sheriffs around the country, that this was the job of federal law enforcement officers and they ought not to punt (ph) it off to local cops. He said so.

And in 2005, he got in trouble with the nativists (ph) because in an incident that occurred, he seemed to take the side of illegal immigrants. There was a case of a 24-year-old army reservist who had pulled over illegal immigrants, held them at gunpoint. Arpaio went ballistic on the reservist, said, you can't just do that, and make comments about how being illegal in the country -- being an illegal immigrant isn't a crime, and he was right about that.

The nativists beat him up, and for the last four years, you know, he's acted like a whipped dog. He's learned his lesson, and now he panders to that Right Wing element.

SANCHEZ: Well, what about the possibility that a man has the right to change his mind?

NAVARRETTE: Yes. The right -- he has the right to change his mind, but if he does it because of politics in a way that defines the law -- I mean, defies the law -- you said it -- the constitution is the law of the land. How can he be a law enforcement officer if he's breaking and violating the constitution?

And then, to top it off, when Department of Homeland Security, which never should have given him the power to enforce immigration laws to begin with, when they take away that power, he says, well, I don't take orders from the federal government. You know, excuse me? You were in an agreement with the federal government. Now he's just rogue. Now he's just a -- an outlaw. SANCHEZ: Well, I want to ask you -- I want to ask you in a moment, given -- because I know you've covered Janet Napolitano an awful lot and what you think she's going to do. But before I do that, let me ask you, you keep mentioning that you think this is political. Political for what gain? What does Joe Arpaio need politically?

NAVARRETTE: Well, he needs -- he needs to keep this job. He needs to be in the limelight. You know, everybody, Rick, has a drug, and for him, that drug is this television camera.

You know, I go on television, you go on television. For Arpaio, that's the drug. He needs to be on TV. You should be grateful that he didn't figure out a way to go up in a hot air balloon to get your attention because he if he knew how to do that, he would do that, Rick. He would do that. Whatever it takes.

SANCHEZ: All right. Settle down, Ruben. Let me ask -- let me ask you this -- although that was a funny line -- do you believe he has higher aspirations? Does he want to run for governor? Does he want to be a part of the Senate? I mean -- and could he win given that there's obviously a lot of people who think the guy's fantastic?

NAVARRETTE: Well, I'll tell you what, the Arizona Republican Party has long dealt with Arpaio, sort of keeping him at arm's length. They're afraid of him because of the amount of attention he generates. They're also afraid that one day he might well run for governor as 10, 15 years ago, there were polls that would come out that would show all the Republican who could run for governor -- people like John McCain, others in the mix -- Arpaio was way in ahead, number one choice -- the number one choice of Republican voters.

So this idea that somehow Arpaio hasn't been told to run for governor, for 15 years, people have said, run for governor.

SANCHEZ: We're down to 20 seconds, but just give me your take on what you believe Janet Napolitano and the Feds, the Obama administration, will do about a rogue sheriff in Maricopa County?

NAVARRETTE: Yes. I don't -- well, it's going to be a test of wills. Janet should crack down on him. Arpaio belongs locked up in his own jail. He's breaking the law, you know, and he made news today on your show, Rick. He said that he enforces the same standard as the border patrol, and you got him on that. That's not going to cut it because the border patrol has a different standard than he does. That's where he's committed his -- his offense.

SANCHEZ: That's interesting. We'll go back and look at that. Thanks for pointing that out. Ruben Navarrette, thank you, sir.

NAVARRETTE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: And stay in touch. We appreciate it.

NAVARRETTE: Thanks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ (voice-over): It's a horrifying bus crash and it's caught on camera, and these are views from inside the bus as it happened. We're going to take you through it and the result. We'll be right back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We call this a national conversation.

Just because here in New York, we're not going to stop getting your comments on what's going on. And many of you are still furious at these balloon boy parents.

As a matter of fact -- put those up, Dan, if we can. I'll read a couple of those.

Let me go right to the first one. I think you're going to be able to see right on top there. "Yes, the parents should be charged. They wasted taxpayers' dollars so they could get on TV and they exploited their kids." The next says pretty much the same thing. "Balloon boy parents should be charged for the search, as well as charged with child exploitation."

Obviously, we're watching this as it will develop throughout the day. As soon as it does, we will bring you the police's reaction -- if there is an arrest. We'll wait.

Meanwhile, in "Blackhawk Down," remember, Somali militia shot down a U.S. military helicopter, sending shockwaves around the world, not to mention creating the setting for a blockbuster movie. How's Brazil for a similar setting? Here's "Fotos."

(MUSIC PLAYING)

SANCHEZ: And they're off. It's part of the country that is out of control. Reports of nearly two dozen people killed over there over the weekend.

But this is the moment everyone will be talking about. Three officers -- three police officers killed after their helicopter is shot out of the sky. That's what's left of it. You can see that the chopper hit with the fire -- hit with fire and then you literally see a part of it come down and then it disappears.

This is amazing. I mean, these are the slums of Rio you're looking at right here. Oh, and did I mention it's not far from the 2016 Summer Olympic Games, where they'll be held? And, yes, now, there's a question of security.

Remember this, in the aftermath of rocket being hurled into the moon, NASA wanted to see if there was water under the moon's surface. It turns out the big boom led to big results. These new images that you're looking at there show a mile-high plume of lunar debris. Another spacecraft is collecting data for scientists to study.

A new video now, a horrifying crash caught on video seven different ways. Police say that an SUV allegedly turned in front of a bus. Watch, the bus couldn't stop in time and it hits the bridge support. Wow.

Passengers are thrown everywhere. No one on the bus was severely injured, thank goodness. And we're told the SUV's driver's injury, believe it or not, are not life-threatening.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

SANCHEZ: Why are more women the new political targets and why it's often vicious -- especially when it comes to these four women? Who are they? We'll take you through it -- a political cartoon saying what many think. We're looking into it with none other than Patricia Murphy.

Stay right there. I'm going to be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Well, welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. We're in New York City today where I'm going to be doing the 8:00 show as well, filling in for Campbell Brown tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, that is.

I want you to look at something, if you can. Take a quick look. This is a political cartoon. See if you notice what the artist is really trying to tell us here.

And here's my question: Are we still freaked out by women in positions of power? I mean, think about that. Look at all the women: Palin and Michele Bachmann, Arizona -- pardon me -- Alaska and Minnesota. And there you see Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi.

So, it's not a right thing or a left thing, it's a left-right thing -- maybe more of a women thing.

Patricia Murphy has answers on this. She knows the controversy and she's going to be joining me here in just a little bit to take us through this.

Stay there. This should be pretty good.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back.

I want to show you something that I saw this morning. It's a syndicated cartoon. The artist is Signe Wilson -- pardon me -- Wilkinson, of "The Philadelphia Daily News." It made me stop and think when I watched this.

Let me see what you make of it. It says "Most Hated Politicians," all right? That's the heading. Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and the other -- in the middle, there are two other women, and here's what they are saying. "Well," says the one, "there's one thing both sides seem to hate." It's not very subtle, is it? It seems to show you what they seem to hate.

You think for a moment of the venom, the purple-faced anger aimed at these four ladies. Is it a trend, or does it say something about us in these political times -- these hot political times?

Patricia Murphy is here, columnist for PoliticsDaily.com.

What do you make of this, Murph?

PATRICIA MURPHY, COLUMNIST, POLITICSDAILY.COM: I think that sexism against women in politics is actually nothing new, but I think the more that we have women coming to the top of politics, the more vicious sometimes these attacks are becoming and the more it's just out in the open. And as this cartoon indicates, it's really not limited to Democrats or Republicans.

SANCHEZ: Well, is it about...

MURPHY: Any time there's a woman -- go ahead.

SANCHEZ: I'm just thinking -- I mean, as I'm hearing you talk, it's not -- is it really about politics, or is it men freaked out about women in power, period?

MURPHY: Yes -- well, first of all, I don't think it's just men who attack women in politics. Oftentimes, you'll see women attacking other women in politics. But a lot of it has to do with the fact that to be in politics, to survive in politics, you have to be tough, and you have to be able to take a punch.

That's something that Senator Feinstein said she tells every woman who wants to get into politics, learn how to take a punch. This is a tough business.

When you have women who look tough in front of a camera that comes off as being difficult to approach, maybe it's the "B" word, maybe she is a bad person. For a man it's tough, it's trustworthy. For a woman it's not trustworthy. It's maybe threatening.

SANCHEZ: But...

MURPHY: So, it's a tough line for women to negotiate.

SANCHEZ: But I'll tell you what -- I'll tell you what's clearly not fair and I see it all the time. I see people talk about Nancy Pelosi's eyes, whatever procedure she may have had. I see people talking about Hillary Clinton's clothing and her body shape and her body type. I see them making fun of Bachmann's hair. I see them talk about the governor of Alaska and make fun of her accent and her squeaky voice or whatever they did.

I mean, all of these things are fair game when it comes to these four women, but men who are all of those things and more, I never hear them criticized that way. I hear them criticized more substantively.

MURPHY: Well, that's very true. And, again, I think it's because of this newer phenomenon of having women in positions of power. Nancy Pelosi, of course, is the first woman's speaker. She is leading the Democratic Party in the House. Men in that same position get attacked all the time. That's part of the business, but the attacks on Pelosi are incredibly personal.

The attacks on Sarah Palin are just incredibly personal.

SANCHEZ: Yes, they are.

MURPHY: Just as she came out as a nominee, she was attacked -- literally attacked for raising a special needs child and then choosing to go into the role as the possible vice president. And it was other women attacking her.

So, again, it is part of the business, but it's part -- part of that business for women in particular are vicious personal attacks. A lot of it has to do with people being uncomfortable with women, I think, in those positions of power.

SANCHEZ: But I bet you -- I bet you right now, you and I are having this conversation, right, and there are people who are listening to us out there who are on the left or on the right, pick your poison, right? And the ones on the left are sitting there saying, "Oh, but you know what, Bachmann and Sarah Palin, they deserve it." And there's folks watching us right now on the right and they're saying, "Well, Hillary and Pelosi, they deserve it." Right? Am I wrong?

MURPHY: I know you're not wrong. And listen -- a lot of these women's appeal to the people who like them are their personal stories. The fact that Palin and Bachmann are both mothers of five; the fact that Hillary Clinton has eclipsed her husband's shadow and now, she's the one in power; and Nancy Pelosi, also a mother, grandmother, coming to roles of power. They are very personal stories.

So, that's their appeal on one hand. And on the other hand, it's part -- literally part of the repulsion for other people. But I have to say, for these women, it hasn't kept them down. I mean, they are incredibly powerful, all four of these women, I think, only going higher in their own careers.

SANCHEZ: It's interesting that...

MURPHY: So, even though the attacks are vicious, they are not stopping them.

SANCHEZ: Michael is telling me that just as I was saying that which there are people on the left and the people on the right who are going to attack the other side, they don't care if it's women or what, which kind of makes this segment null and void.

Take that, Michael, if you can. Did you see you had some sound of people out there or you have some tweets from people who are writing into us, who are saying just that, "Yes, but you know, Nancy Pelosi is this or the other"? All right. Come on. How long does it take to get in there? There we go. Which want you want me to read, Michael, as you pore there?

Top one. "I didn't know Palin was still considered a politician. She's an author know, don't you know politician's carts have representative of" -- I have no idea what that person is saying.

"Oh, Rick, you certainly hit a chord by addressing the H8 against women in politics. You brave man you. We women commend you." Hey, there you go. Maria in New York City thinks we're doing the right thing, by golly. I got one vote there.

Look, there's no question that there is a difference. I see it all the time. And it -- it really comes into play when they start talking about women's clothing, about Hillary Clinton's body. I guarantee you -- I mean, cross my heart and hope to pee all over my leg that there's way they wouldn't say that about a man. They don't make fun of men's body size or any of that.

MURPHY: Well, I'm hoping you don't pee all over your leg.

SANCHEZ: I'm not going to, I promise.

MUPRHY: I'm hoping you don't pee all over your leg. Yes, there's a difference for sure.

SANCHEZ: That's a "Leave It To Beaver" thing.

(LAUGHTER)

MURPHY: Do you want me to respond -- I don't know what to say.

SANCHEZ: I'm sorry, go ahead. But it's true, isn't it?

MURPHY: Yes, it is true. I don't really know what else to say.

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: That's the first time I've seen you laugh this way. This is good. It's an old "Leave It To Beaver" line. Cross my heart and hope not to pee.

Anyway, final question: is there...

MURPHY: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... a difference between these four women that really separates them? I mean, Clinton versus Palin, Bachmann versus Pelosi -- is there some substantial difference between these women because that's what some of the people watching the show will argue?

MURPHY: Well, I think -- no, I think, ironically, there's a lot more that these women have in common with each other than what they have -- that are different from each other. These are driven women. These are women who have come out of their husband's shadows. They don't care what other people say about them.

SANCHEZ: Huh.

MURPHY: A lot of women don't get into politics because it is such a rough, dirty business. They don't want to be attacked. All four of these women are women who do not care if they're getting attacked. They are staying in it and they're very -- they're not going anywhere.

SANCHEZ: All right. More idioms from the 1960s when you and I get back together again, OK?

MURPHY: OK.

SANCHEZ: It's a "Leave It To Beaver" thing, I swear. Murph, thanks so much for being with us.

Here now, Wolf Blitzer in Washington. I'll see you tonight again at 8:00.