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Joy Behar Page
Divorce: American Style
Aired October 20, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, a special show about the ugly and the unpleasant side of love. And I`m not talking about Mark Sanford`s e-mail poetry. I`m talking about divorce. It`s all the rage these days from Christie Brinkley to Mel Gibson to the Gosselins. Celebrity split ups on making news and making divorce attorneys rich.
But this private hell isn`t always played out on the public stage. Two and a half million Americans have divorced in the past year and half of marriages in the U.S. end in splitsville. I tell you, divorce must be fabulous because everybody is doing it.
So join me and my panel of sadder but wiser ex-wives as we share tales of love and betrayal and everything in between. Whether you`re a man, a woman, married, divorced or just planning ahead, you don`t want to miss this special presentation.
My guests tonight have something in common and no, it`s not just that they`re fabulous, which they are. It`s that they`ve all had private divorces play out in the public eye.
Here with me now are Marla Maples, actress and radio host of "Awakening with Marla" -- that must be fun...
MARLA MAPLES, EX-WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: It is.
BEHAR: And ex-wife of the Donald. Dina Matos, ex-wife of former New Jersey Governor, Jim McGreevey, who announced to the world that he was a gay American. She`s also the author of "Silent Partner." And Mary Jo Eustace, author of "Divorce Sucks" and whose ex-husband Dean McDermott left her for Tori Spelling.
Welcome ladies. Let me start with you Mary Jo.
MARY JO EUSTACE, EX-HUSBAND LEFT HER FOR TORI SPELLING: Oh thank you.
BEHAR: Now, you were married to Dean for 13 years, right?
EUSTACE: I was.
BEHAR: Right and after a three-week movie shoot with Tori Spelling he came and announced that he was leaving you because he has found his soul mate in Tori Spelling.
EUSTACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Don`t you have to have a soul before you can say you have a soul mate.
EUSTACE: Yes, kind of, it was sort of two and a half or three weeks, that was a very intense relationship. And he actually broke up with me in a Palm Springs hotel room when I was in a really ugly bikini -- missing like padding on one side, holding my daughter in my arms. He is just -- I know that`s bad. It`s sad. I know it.
He just came in from a golf game. And I sort of suspected something wasn`t quite right. Because he was quite evasive and I said is something up? And said well...
BEHAR: Did you have a bad game?
EUSTACE: Yes, and so I said, did you not get a par or birdie or whatever happens out there?
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: He said well, I didn`t want to tell you on vacation. I thought that`s kind of weird. And I just said have you met somebody? And he said yes. And I said is it Tori Spelling? And he said yes. And then I thought, did you sleep with her? He said yes. She was my soul mate. I`m leaving you, she loves me unconditionally.
BEHAR: Cold like that?
EUSTACE: And I said what conditions, you`ve known her in three weeks. I actually thought it was a joke. I thought that I was being punked. But it was true.
BEHAR: It was true.
EUSTACE: It was true yes.
BEHAR: And Dina, your ex-husband was telling the world he was a gay American while you were standing beside him. Let`s look at the...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM MCGREEVEY, RESIGNED AS NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: I engaged in adult consensual affair with another man, which violates my bonds of matrimony. It was wrong. It was foolish. It was inexcusable. And for this I ask the forgiveness and the grace of my wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What were you thinking at that moment Dina?
DINA MATOS, EX-WIFE OF JIM MCGREEVEY: I really wasn`t. I was in shock because I had only learned three days before that he had been involved in a relationship and so I was really in shock. I was there in the moment. And all of the cameras flashing and all of the reporters but I compare it to an out of body experience. I was there physically but mentally, you know, I was just trying to maintain my composure and not fall apart in front of the cameras.
BEHAR: If you watched the show "The Good Wife," it reminded of that. They really...
MATOS: Yes.
BEHAR: ...took those moments to you and Silda Spitzer (ph) and those moments and put them in a fictional show.
MATOS: I think they`ve done a tremendous job with that show.
BEHAR: I know, true.
MATOS: And I think Juliana Margolis (ph) is really doing a great job with that role. I think it`s very empowering for women...
BEHAR: To see that show?
MATOS: ...to see that show because they realize that there is life after divorce. When you`re going through it, you don`t think there is.
BEHAR: Yes.
MATOS: You think this is the end of your life as you know it. And in some ways it is. That you feel powerless.
BEHAR: Yes.
MATOS: And I think watching that and see how she is -- certainly there`s a struggle...
BEHAR: Yes, she`s rising from the ashes. But she keeps solving the cases every week. She`s going to have to lose a few.
It`s like Perry Mason; we know she`s going to win.
MATOS: Right.
BEHAR: Marla, now, you were married to the Donald for six years. You had a very public wedding.
MAPLES: Yes.
BEHAR: And I was at your wedding.
MAPLES: Yes you were.
BEHAR: I was at your wedding and I`ll tell you quick story about that wedding. I took a picture of you and him or whoever and I got up to dance and left my bag at the table and when I came back from dancing, my camera was -- the film was taken out of my camera. It was like Big Brother was at your wedding.
MAPLES: That`s funny, I wonder if someone was making money off the wedding pictures and I didn`t know about it.
BEHAR: That could be. But I mean, what was the worst moment for you? Because your divorce was public, it was splashed all over the papers.
MAPLES: I think it was mine was in the beginning of the relationship was maybe the toughest part.
BEHAR: The beginning?
MAPLES: Yes. In the beginning, because you know, any time that you fall in love, you open your heart to many possibilities. You hope for the best. And you hope that it`s eternal. We all walk in dreamy-eyed. And we learn so much in our 20s, I came to know our 20s are really the learning ground...
BEHAR: Right.
MAPLES: ...for what`s real and what`s not. So the difficult times specifically we were watching it played out in the media and not being able to control it...
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPLES: ...and thinking I had to. And the point is you really have to let it take its course and I always say that the truth or who you are inside is always going to be revealed to the people that it counts for.
So but not being able to -- being out of control is a hard thing to have happen to you.
BEHAR: Yes. Did you come out looking better than him or vice versa? What do you think?
MAPLES: I think, he`s definitely made a lot more money. He`s done pretty well with that TV show.
I would have to argue, I have the best part of the whole deal because I have sole custody of our daughter...
BEHAR: Right, oh that`s nice...
MAPLES: ...and that`s absolute joy and happiness.
BEHAR: So he didn`t fight you on the custody of Tiffany?
MAPLES: No. I just -- I walked away.
BEHAR: Ok, it`s so great that you called her Tiffany. It`s perfect for him.
MAPLES: Yes well.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPLES: It was his first big deal, he was getting the air rights over Tiffany`s Department Store to build Trump Tower.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPLES: So he was like, Ivana wouldn`t let me name Yvonne Tiffany, so will you let me name our daughter Tiffany? I`m just like oh, you put it that way.
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPLES: And it was a good name but that is on Bulgari.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: But so how did you girls -- you don`t mind if I call you girls do you?
MAPLES: Yes, that`s a compliment.
BEHAR: I like girls, because we are like post-feminist now.
MAPLES: Right.
BEHAR: So how did you bounce back from the news that your ex gave you those days, anybody?
EUSTACE: Well, I think that probably, well, maybe like all of us, I think initially you are in absolute shock that this is happening. I mean, mine was so blind siding in your sense as well I`m not exactly sure of you. But I think I really got...
BEHAR: You`re shocked.
EUSTACE: You`re in total complete survival mode.
And then when the public aspect kicks in, and for me what was so weird the first week that my divorce was announced when I saw a picture of my ex- husband with his new wife`s legs wrapped around his head. And you know my full...
BEHAR: Really, where was that?
EUSTACE: It was in the "National Enquirer," but I mean, cowboy boots and you know the whole thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: Ruined my lunch with my mother, I was very upset and but...
BEHAR: How long ago was that?
EUSTACE: Four years.
BEHAR: Ok.
EUSTACE: But it was the bitterness...
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: They rewrote my whole life. And they got my age wrong. They said I was 62 and old and then bitter.
BEHAR: Wow.
EUSTACE: I`m only 47.
BEHAR: Wow.
MAPLES: Look how good you look.
EUSTACE: Well, thank you.
BEHAR: Now, that`s a deal breaker. I`m sorry, that would really piss me off.
EUSTACE: The age?
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: Well, yes. You know I sounded like I was in a wheelchair you know puttering around -- this crazy wife, in truth that was...
BEHAR: You`re a gorgeous young woman.
EUSTACE: Well, youngish.
BEHAR: Youngish, all right.
EUSTACE: But the way it is -- and it probably happened with both of you, they rewrite your life.
MAPLES: Yes.
BEHAR: Absolutely.
EUSTACE: And it`s like you don`t exist. It`s very, very odd.
BEHAR: Ok, before we go to you guys, I want you to take a look at one couple living out their dream marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": I was verbally abused. I was beaten down. I was -- she separated me from my family. She used to hold the kids over my head and say, you know, don`t spend time with your mom. Spend time with your kids.
KATE GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": He took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. And I have a stack of bills in my purse I can`t drop in the mail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I mean, it`s really hideous but that`s a reality show, they say.
MATOS: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, is it real or isn`t it real, are they doing it for the camera? Just your opinion on that one?
MAPLES: I`ve never seen so much press around someone that I didn`t even know who they were.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: No, they got more press that you got.
MAPLES: It`s really obvious -- the folks that we see in the world now that are really acting and doing their work out there.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
MAPLES: So the public must be really connected to this in some way.
EUSTACE: I don`t know what way. He`s on everything. Isn`t he?
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: Is he a star now? Because if he`s a star...
BEHAR: He`s trying to be a star. He and balloon boy`s father.
EUSTACE: Ok, they should get together.
BEHAR: Yes.
EUSTACE: What`s he going to translate this career into, though? What`s he`s going to do, Jon Gosselin?
BEHAR: The Gosselins?
EUSTACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Marriage counseling.
MATOS: I think it`s unfortunate for the children to have their parents out there certainly, you know, they have their own agendas but they have eight children...
BEHAR: Yes.
MATOS: ...that they have to realize that at some point, you know, with YouTube and...
BEHAR: Oh, I know.
MATOS: ...the advent of Internet, this is all going to be out there for the children to read about.
BEHAR: Well, it`s always tragic for the children. It`s always bad. But people are so crazy at that time. Ok. We`ll take break.
Coming up Lance Armstrong`s ex Kristen opens up about her divorce. Oh we`ve got a lot to talk about.
MAPLES: Yes, it`s good.
BEHAR: I mean the whole show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE BRINKLEY, FORMER SUPERMODEL: I want to thank all of you for your support throughout this ordeal. For me it`s a very bittersweet moment because it really is the death of a marriage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was beautiful Christie Brinkley talking about her fourth ex-husband, Peter Cook; one more couple whose private hell was also made into public fodder.
I`m joined now by Kristen Armstrong; she`s the ex-wife of Lance Armstrong and the author of "Happily Ever After, Walking with Peace and Courage through a Year of Divorce." Welcome, Kristen.
KRISTEN ARMSTRONG, FORMER WIFE OF LANCE ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: I`m with Christie on this. I feel like, I want to take sides on that one maybe because I know them both. But this guy had an affair with a teenager and spent thousands of dollars downloading porn. So on top of being unfaithful, he`s a lousy shopper.
What`s your take on that -- do you think she has a right to be mad?
ARMSTRONG: Me?
BEHAR: Yes. Just curious what you think of Christie.
ARMSTRONG: I don`t really know anything about their story. But that did not sound good to me.
BEHAR: He was going out with a girl who was about 30 years younger or something and downloading all of that porn. I just think that she`s...
ARMSTRONG: That`s not good.
BEHAR: Let`s go to you instead of that. Your divorce was out there because your husband, your ex-husband, Lance, was dating Sheryl Crowe; the very famous and wonderfully talented singer. How hard was that for you see them together in public like that?
ARMSTRONG: Well, that wasn`t really the reason that our marriage -- they started dating after our divorce process started. It`s funny because Sheryl is lovely. For as much as that was painful for me at the time, you know, I really wanted to dislike her. I really did.
She is lovely. She`s beautiful. She`s smart. She`s funny. She was great with the kids. For as much as I wanted to dislike her and I tried, I couldn`t.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. You know, in Mary Jo Eustace`s book, "Divorce Sucks," she says that you should really make friends with the new wife or the new girlfriend -- I don`t know -- because it guess it`s better for the kids. But besides the kids -- did you do -- you did that with Sheryl then. How did it all work out for you?
ARMSTRONG: Well, I just think that when you have two people that have your children in common, I think when you can see that someone else really loves your kids, too, it does this miraculous makeover on your heart and you start to look at that person with fresh eyes.
I think it`s important. It`s important for your kids. I think it`s important for your relationship with your ex and I think ultimately it`s a source of liberation for yourself.
BEHAR: You see, I like Sheryl Crowe, too, but she didn`t run off with my husband so what do I know.
You and Lance have three kids together. You`re very close friends with him. How did you get to that point?
ARMSTRONG: It`s been a long time and a lot of work. We were married for five years. We`ve been divorced for almost six now.
And I think that when you are a couple that even if your marriage doesn`t make it, if you`re the sort of couple that has your children as a priority, you really are able to transcend beyond yourself and beyond your differences and look at ways to work through that and figure out how you can best go on loving the children that you have together. And that is -- that`s a beautiful thing.
I think my primary concern when things started falling apart was I was so upset about not being able to show our kids what unconditional love looks like. And through working through all of our stuff together and coming out on the other side as friends and parents, I can look back now and honestly say that our kids definitely know what unconditional love looks like.
BEHAR: That`s very good. You sound like you really came out a winner in this. Thank you very much for joining us.
ARMSTRONG: Thanks.
BEHAR: Ok. I want to turn back to our panel now. It`s interesting what she said. You say it in your book.
EUSTACE, EX-HUSBAND LEFT HER FOR TORI SPELLING: I think the way I phrase it in my book is that the new mother, the stepmother, has to defer to the mother. I think trying to one up the mother and engage the children is toxic. You have to respect it. You have to respect that relationship.
I think that if you do that, then the children are healthy. Regardless if you get along with this new woman and if you`re great friends or not, there`s a certain respect and boundary. I think that`s super, super important. I think that`s the key to making it work.
BEHAR: Have you girls ever been the other woman also?
MARY MAPLES, EX-WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: I was.
BEHAR: You were. That`s right, you were.
MAPLES: It was the worst situation to be in ever. I grew up in a strong Baptist environment and it was never a situation I ever thought I would be in. You come into New York City from Georgia and you believe everything you`re told. And next thing you know you turn around and you`re caught up in this horrible scandal that you never intended.
BEHAR: Did you feel guilty about it?
MAPLES: I just felt broken. I felt completely broken because I`m a big believer that that what you`re judged comes back. We have to be careful about our judgments in life. That was one of the things as a child growing up I felt was so gross is these men who are married hitting on younger girls and then I ended up in a situation like that.
BEHAR: Did you ever feel like you were betraying the sisterhood in any way?
MAPLES: No because what was explained to me about their marriage was very different than how it played out in the press.
I was told...
BEHAR: She doesn`t understand me -- that old routine.
MAPLES: They were already working on the divorce arrangements. And they were working on the post-nuptial.
BEHAR: That`s what he said.
MAPLES: Oh, yes. He was talking to my parents on the phone telling them how much he loved me. So it was really made out to be very different for me than it may have been or at least I had been played out in the press.
When you`re in love you want to believe the best. You don`t want to see the ugly stuff. So often your heart is broken and then -- because the media suddenly you may walk in with good intentions but it`s a horrible situation.
(CROSS TALK)
EUSTACE: Well, it`s also the sisterhood -- I think that`s so interesting what you said and I write about that in my book. What are you doing to an intact family? Coming in ...
BEHAR: It`s like that Hall and Oates song, "Leave him alone, he`s a family man."
EUSTACE: Yes. Good daughter, indifferent, you know, whatever -- there`s some sacredness involved in a family. Walking into that situation of full knowledge, my situation -- I just adopted a little girl who was 7 weeks old.
To enter that -- I mean really -- I write about that in the book, like supporting other women, respecting the primary family. All of those things are really essential.
BEHAR: You said something, Dina, I was reading that you never felt that your husband loved you. You never felt loved by him in the marriage.
DINA MATOS, EX-WIFE OF JIM MCGREEVEY: Well, I did feel loved. As Marla said, when you fall in love with someone, you want to believe that this is forever; that this person is being honest with you. But my husband after his announcement I found some papers which I think were an outline for a book that he was writing that said he married me for political gain. He married me because he wanted to become governor and perhaps president.
BEHAR: Do you believe that?
MATOS: I do. I do.
BEHAR: That`s hurtful.
MATOS: That`s very painful.
MAPLES: The blessing is that we all do have each other and the sisterhood is so important and what was the most painful for me is not being able to bridge that with the ex-wife. I really wanted to be able to have that communication and be a woman -- woman to woman and talk about.
BEHAR: This is very interesting stuff. A bit later I`m going to talk to Dina about the other man.
But first former "Law & Order" Isabel Gillies shares a story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest left a promising career as an actress on "Law and Order" to follow her husband to Ohio. Joining me now is Isabel Gillies, actress and author of "Happens Every Day: An all too true story." Welcome to the show.
ISABEL GILLIES, FORMER LAW & ORDER STAR: Thank you.
BEHAR: We recognize you from the show. Tell us what happened to you.
GILLIES: I was married. My ex-husband is a professor. He was at Harvard when I met him. We got married. We had one baby.
We decided that -- I`m an actress. I was on "Law and Order" and I had had a pretty successful career thus far but I wasn`t Meryl Streep so the life of a professor and the world you can create on campus and you can go to an interesting town and have a happy life with children in a very much less expensive house than living in New York. So we thought that would be a smart idea. I thought it would be a great idea.
BEHAR: What happened when you got there?
GILLIES: We got there...
BEHAR: It`s interesting you would think that would be a more interesting life than showbiz. Most people don`t see it that way.
GILLIES: I wanted a family. He`s a very, very good professor. I just thought it was a better thing to bank on his career than mine as an actress which was shaky and doesn`t have any stability in some cases, and I wanted to be a mother.
BEHAR: What happened when you got there?
GILLIES: So we got there. I started living there and I actually started teaching acting at the college. We had this wonderful house and a very bucolic, ideal life.
And then he left me for a colleague of his who is a friend of mine. But I actually -- he left me quite suddenly. I ended up going back to New York and living with my parents and our children; our little boys.
BEHAR: Oh, my goodness.
I could never come back to live with my parents. They`re dead. I know that would be really creepy to live with them now.
But it`s very 1960s what you did. I did that also. I went to Rhode Island with my professor husband when I was in the middle of -- I had a job. I didn`t have a career. It`s a very, very 1960s, 1950s thing to do.
GILLIES: Did you have children?
BEHAR: I didn`t have them at the time. I followed him any way. What was I thinking? If you have children, you have an excuse.
GILLIES: Except you know truthfully though, I don`t think that there`s anything to regret ever in life. I mean, I had a wonderful time teaching. I would have never done that. I would have never lived in that part of the country.
I`m from New York. I knew nothing about the Midwest. I had beautiful children and they got to grow up in a little...
BEHAR: Sure.
GILLIES: And then I came back and pulled my socks up and said, ok, let`s start again. And actually I was getting divorced on "Law and Order" when I was in Ohio and then I came back and saved that marriage.
BEHAR: And the end of the story is you got your job back on "Law and Order" right?
GILLIES: I did. I got that job back. When I got to New York and living with my very wise father and mother, one day I was filling out applications for a school that was just enormously too expensive for me to send my children to but I was filling them out anyway...
BEHAR: We`re running out of time in this segment. Just before we go, what does your husband teach, your ex?
GILLIES: Poetry.
BEHAR: Poetry. Ok, watch those poets.
Isabel, stay there. Much more of our special presentation in just a minute. I`m sorry I had to cut you off, dear.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re talking about divorce with some women that have firsthand experience. Back with my lovely panel, Marla Maples, Dina Matos, and Mary Joe Eustace, and Isabel Gillies. I want you ladies to take a look at this clip from the movie, Waiting to Exhale.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
I give you 11 years of my life and you`re telling me you`re leaving me for another woman?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now you all wanted to do that, right?
MARIE JO EUSTACE: I`ve done it.
BEHAR: Tell me about the most violent, what did you do -- tell me what did you do, tell me. What did you do?
EUSTACE: Well it didn`t involve arson. But I did, he had a prize boflex that he made me, he wanted to buy boflex. And I said, no, no, no.
BEHAR: What is a boflex?
EUSTACE: A boflex -- you work out. He`s an actor he`s got to be in superb shape for his career.
BEHAR: Oh really, oh that`s a first tip-off.
(CROSSTALK)
EUSTACE: Okay, well anyways so I said why - why -
(LAUGHTER)
EUSTACE: Thank you I said go for a run, do a hike. He said I want a boflex. We went back and forth with the boflex cause the boflex is was $3,000. So finally I said you can get the boflex if you work out every day. Well needless to say it sat in the garage and he hung his workout gear on it. So when I left, I gave, I just put the boflex out on the sidewalk and someone drove by and just took it. They just took it.
BEHAR: Well that wasn`t that bad. EUSTACE: Well then I also did burn a suit of his.
BEHAR: Well that`s better.
EUSTACE: A polyester suit that he used to wear.
BEHAR: Well that`s more like it.
EUSTACE: It was polyester, it was not good.
BEHAR: It was sweet to him. You said - you didn`t say go take a hike.
EUSTACE: No.
BEHAR: Go for a hike, it`s less hostile. I love it. Thank you. Let me talk to you a little bit, Dina because your case is different. Your husband left you for a man. Now is that worst than leaving him for a woman, do you think?
DINA MATOS, AUTHOR: I think it is.
BEHAR: You do. Well, see to me it would be easier. My ego to - cause my ego wouldn`t be involved.
MATOS: No but I think you know, it`s very different when your husband leaves you for another woman, at some point you know there was love in the marriage and you had something. But when your husband is not the person that you think he is, you know, he`s an impostor --
BEHAR: It`s weird.
MATOS: Then you start questioning every aspect of your life together. What was real? Was that kiss real? Was that vacation and time we had on vacation real? Did he ever love me? Why did he marry me? Later I found out why. So
BEHAR: For political gain you said.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh so you didn`t know he was gay until he announced it on television?
MATOS: Right. He - I -- he`s never told me I`m gay. I read the words I am a gay American about an hour before we left for his press conference.
BEHAR: But there were no signs in the marriage that he was gay? Nothing?
MATOS: No. No.
BEHAR: When you look back -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean now -
MATOS: No, no.
BEHAR: Some gay guys -
MATOS: There were some issues. And the only time we had the conflict was about him not spending enough time with me and my daughter. And
BEHAR: And where was he? Off with a guy?
MATOS: Well part of the time he was. But he, you know his excuse was I`m either running for governor or I`m governor now. I`m busy. You know like - but you didn`t think the president of the United States takes a vacation, you can`t?
BEHAR: But I mean, I have to know more about this because a lot of girls I know, women I know, sort of going with gay guys and don`t know it. Everyone else knows it but they don`t know it. I`m curious -- I`ll be blunt. What about the sex? Was there any sign in the bedroom? He was always into you? Really
MATOS: And I talk to women again who call me -- contact me all the time and it`s the same -- they`re shocked. Because some of them have had, you know some signs. But and there were some signs and I write about it in my book like the way he proposed and some other things that looking back --
BEHAR: The way he proposed? Like how -- what did he do?
MATOS: He never asked me to marry him. He just put a ring in front of me and said so what do you think?
BEHAR: Okay so he`s not romantic. That wouldn`t necessarily mean he`s gay.
MATOS: No exactly so there were a lot of things that have happened. And the fact that he didn`t want me to ever have any sort of relationship or even talk to his ex-wife and acted really weird around here, stopped having mail come to the house once we were married, so I thought perhaps there`s a problem. I thought that he was having an affair, if anything, with his ex-wife.
BEHAR: With his ex-wife?
MATOS: With his ex - wife.
BEHAR: That`s rare, isn`t it?
EUSTACE: Yeah. Don`t look at me. Yeah. Wouldn`t it -- your situation is two-fold because you have the betrayal where you think he didn`t love you and if he actually had a real love for you and then you found out that he was gay, would that have made it easier for you? If you felt that the love was there?
MATOS: Probably, probably. BEHAR: Probably.
EUSTACE: Because I think if I was married to a man and he left me for another man but he loved me - I don`t know, I mean I don`t know
MATOS: Well betrayal is betrayal.
(CROSSTALK)
MATOS: But there`s another level. There`s another level because you question everything. It certainly -
BEHAR: Makes you feel like you`re crazy.
MATOS: Yeah.
BEHAR: Isabel, come back to me, Isabel. She`s still there. So aren`t you glad your husband was just a poet?
(LAUGTHER)
ISABEL GILLIES, AUTHOR: But it does bring up the issue that everybody is so complex. And if you have children, eventually you have to sort of take every complexity and everything that was done wrong and done right and sort of move forward especially for your children because they love their father, you know, just as much as they did when you were married.
BEHAR: Yes! I think that it`s a big mistake. My own experience to get the kids involved in the divorce and use them as a punching bag. I think it`s the worst thing you can do. That`s a terrible thing. I`m sure that none of you did that. Did your husband`s try to do that? Yours did. Dina, you have been carrying the cross. And then after the divorce you had to support your child and you have a foundation, I understand, that your--
MATOS: Well the I`m the executive director of a foundation that raises money for support and research for a rare genetic disorder. So that keeps me -
BEHAR: What`s it called?
MATOS: It`s called k.a.r.e.s. Foundation and the disorder is congenital (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BEHAR: That`s good work you`re doing.
MATOS: Very rewarding.
BEHAR: So at the end of the segment what do you say to women out there who are in the middle of a divorce? There`s a book called Crazy Time -- I read everything when I got divorced. I never felt so bad about anything. It was just a horrible, horrible feeling. And yet, I have risen from the ashes as we all have.
EUSTACE: Clearly, yeah.
BEHAR: Can you see divorce as a growth experience in some way?
(CROSSTALK)
Absolutely.
EUSTACE: I mean especially in "Divorce Sucks." it kicks your ass. You feel dehumanized. Horrible. With lawyers and fighting and feeling unloved and unlovable. And the media thrown into it. At that point if you don`t become an advocate for yourself, there`s nobody. I mean you really have to take care of yourself to take care of your kids. And it really can be life affirming. It can be a wonderful second opportunity in your life. So it can be actually, I think it can be a very positive. The thing on the other side if you work at it -- you have to work at it.
GILLIES: But yea it`s hard so when you talk to women, you know and they`re in the middle of it you just have to know that they have to let this pass through them and accept the pain and grieving period and it will be a period of time but on the other side you say, okay, now that this has come I`m ready to see what`s coming next in my life.
BEHAR: Yea we got some -- do I have time for e-mails? Just hand them to me, do you have them? We had e-mails that people sent in. And one girl just said something like my husband was so annoying I wish he had gone out with Tori Spelling.
(LAUGHTER)
MATOS: Can I have her number? Can I give her a call?
BEHAR: I mean people are very -- they`re writing a lot of e-mails to us about this. Just slide them over here. Look at Bob. He`s so cute. This one says -- this is a very profound thing someone wrote. Go figure. A marriage based on sex will never last but most men cheat because they`re unsatisfied sexually. It`s that interesting -- irony of that. My husband left me while I was giving birth to my fourth child. Oh I love that! Can`t you wait `til the placenta comes out you moron?
MATOS: My husband was sleeping with someone while waiting to give birth to my daughter.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, another one, I was 20 years old married for two years. I had to have back surgery due to a bulging disc. While I`m at the hospital recovering from my surgery my husband brought me divorce papers to sign. He said he didn`t want to be married to a cripple for the rest of his life. She`s married to a cripple! I got news for him
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who is this Newt Gingrich?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And this one said, I love this is good. Oh my favorite Barbie is the divorce Barbie. Does that exist?
EUSTACE: Yes. She`s very hip`n hop`n
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It has the most accessories. She comes with Ken`s house, his boat, his car and a wardrobe. And then this other person, Matty says my divorce was a god creation. I discovered life after that. It was like dying and going to heaven. So you girls out there who are in the middle of this, take heart because it gets better.
MATOS: You lose part of yourself in a marriage particularly if your supporting someone who is a CEO or in politics because -- I certainly did that. You give all of yourself to him and to his career and you lose a lot of yourself and I think once you`ve emerged from this,
BEHAR: You get it back
MATOS: It`s very painful and you get it back and you become the person that you were before.
BEHAR: Just don`t concentrate on stupid things. Focus, this is my advice. Concentrate on what you have to do next rather than all of the distractions. Going after his money unless he has Donald Trump money, I wouldn`t bother it.
GILLIES: Yea well. I chose the child instead.
BEHAR: I know you didn`t get a lot of money. I know that whole story. Thank you, ladies. Next, the lawyers weigh in. You know what that will be. Expensive. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINE BRINKLEY: I was here fighting for custody. I think a mother`s greatest fear is someone trying to take their children, trying to take custody of their children and that`s what I was up against.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Well there`s basically a court order about stuff like this she`s continuing violating but I`m not going to so I`m not going to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Okay that was David Hasselhoff giving us insight into his messy divorce. Once the big D becomes reality, how do you move forward? Joining me to discuss and answer that fairly simple question, Debbie Nigro, founding partner and Chief Executive Girlfriend of First Wife`s World, M. Gary Neuman psychotherapist and author of "The Truth About Cheating" and celebrity divorce lawyer the fabulous Raoul Felder. Okay. So he had a very public divorce, Hasselhoff did. Plus, we have seen that hideous drunken cheeseburger video on the floor. But I mean does it get any worse than a Public divorce? Cause I`m not sure that a public divorce is worse than a private divorce.
RAOUL FELDER, CELEBRITY DIVORCE LAWYER: Well it`s a hell to whoever has it. He was a mess before he ever got divorced. Probably an improvement after he got divorced. But there`s no easy way out.
BEHAR: So he was a mess before, he`ll be a mess after.
FELDER: The word is easy and divorce, Joy, don`t go together.
BEHAR: They don`t go together. Yea.
FELDER: Oxymoron.
M. GARY NEUMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Also the real mess is for kids. Public divorces for children are terrible.
BEHAR: Yea that`s a problem.
NEUMAN: Just square the problem of divorce for kids.
BEHAR: Yea I mean I was thinking about it. And I was thinking I was nobody when I got divorced. It was a lonely thing. I would have liked to have an audience.
DEBBIE NIGRO, CHIEF EXE., GIRLFRIEND OF FIRST WIVES WORLD: Divorce is a lonely sport for everybody. When we have kids, it goes on forever.
FELDER: Not only that, it happens at school and the playground and then when they go to school and distribute a parents` list for play dates and father lives here and mother lives there and kids have to explain it.
BEHAR: Well that doesn`t always work when there`s two different places the kids have (inaudible) around. Oh they have two separate places they have to live. Gary, what`s worse? Being the person who gets dumped or the dumper?
NEUMAN: Being the person that gets -- the dumped. The dumped always such a sense of failure and personal failure but when you get dumped, it really goes to the core. And then of course the problem is that like we say, people are at their worst when they go through a divorce and their children need them the most during that period. So it`s a trickledown effect to the kids. So they are like all over the place. They`re just dealing with their own feelings and now they have to be so attentive to what their children are feeling. It`s really is a recipe for disaster.
BEHAR: That`s very true what he said. And it happened to me. It`s like you`re in the zone when you`re in that crazy time of the divorce. You have to give to the children. It`s like you have nothing to give.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s really a tough, tough time.
NIGRO: I remember Friday nights being a divorced mother. I was the dumper. And
BEHAR: You were the dumper?
NIGRO: And it didn`t feel any better. It was 10 years before I could come to terms with the decision I made that ruined so many people`s lives. It was horrible. Beautiful ex-in-laws. Beautiful people in my family, cousin was a lovely guy. The Friday night alone at the diner.
BEHAR: Your ex-husband was a lovely guy. So why did you dump him?
NIGRO: I don`t know I was crazy back then. You know, I think women make decisions based on emotions that you know, they just make them. And then they think at the time that their life is not going where you`re supposed to. You`re going to pull the plug.
BEHAR: Did you have someone on the side, Debbie?
NIGRO: No, not at the time.
BEHAR: So you just said I need my space? That`s unusual to hear that.
NIGRO: No I think with people I`m being honest enough that sometimes people get married and while they`re going through it they realize that maybe this is not where I should be going and people are coming to the wedding already and it`s too many presents so you just go forward.
BEHAR: Oh yea, that`s true.
NIGRO: And so whatever the reason is, it doesn`t feel a lot better and sitting there being a mother Alone with your own emotions on a Friday night when you rather be with a guy or doing something else -- knowing you have to be a great mother for a kid was a tough switch of personalities. I need mothers in diners and fathers now too trying to keep a straight face when their lives are in disarray.
BEHAR: Gary, do you think its better when the guy just dies?
(LAUGHTER)
FELDER: I can answer to that -- sure. Nobody is at fault.
BEHAR: Let me hear from the shrink and then the lawyer. Go ahead, Gary.
NEUMAN: Sometimes we say it would be so much better if a certain parent died. Especially a parent cheated or if a parent has done something that has taken them out of sainthood to the child. Sometimes we really think that boy if that person would have just passed away they would have died a saint and that would be better for the self-esteem of the entire family. You don`t wish it on anybody. But I just
BEHAR: But which is worst? Widowhood or divorcee - I guess that`s where I was going with that?
NEUMAN: Well no. I think being a divorcee. I think there`s a great deal of rejection and personal failure. Now you cannot compare tragedy. Obviously being a widow is terrible and painful. But it does not involve the personal rejection that comes through the divorce. Even if you`re the dumper you still feel like such a failure under those circumstances. That`s painful.
FELDER: You know Joy; they prepared a stress table -- everything, having a fight with your boss, getting a traffic ticket. Number one was death of a loved one.
BEHAR: That`s right, of a spouse.
FELDER: Right. Number two was divorce. And when I say that to people they said to me on occasion, you know, if the person died, that`s it. I had no role in it. There`s no failure in death. There`s a failure in divorce though.
BEHAR: Now you have done some high profile cases. You were involved with the Rudy Giuliani case when he divorced Dona Hanover. And that was a pretty ugly time. I mean he went on television and announced he was leaving her.
FELDER: Well that was distorted somewhat. And I don`t want to --
BEHAR: Really we saw it on TV.
FELDER: Yea but I don`t want to replay that. The fact is a
BEHAR: I`m not going to believe what I saw on TV or his lawyer?
FELDER: Well you believe his lawyer in this case. I mean this was a reaction to an announcement she made. That`s unimportant. The point is when you have these public divorces, it`s terrible because there`s no aspect of your life -- everybody has an opinion in a divorce. At least two people are living in the Bronx somewhere and nobody bothers them. You get divorced. If you`re public --
BEHAR: How about the case did you with Mike Tyson? Did he bite you?
FELDER: That was terrible. No he didn`t bite me. In fact, I represented a lady who had a baby by him after that. He only bites in the ring. And in my experience
BEHAR: He made up the other day with Holyfield on the "Oprah" show. That was a beautiful moment.
(LAUGHTER)
FELDER: The -- the thing in that case is I knew I was on the side of the angels and according to the public, he was a world champion at the time, could not do any wrong. Robert Gibbs was the victim, took years and years before that really came out fully. You had such a sense it was wrong what was going on, yet you lost -- all the press said, all the polls said she was the worst woman in the world. She wasn`t a mother -- all that business.
BEHAR: Well it`s like some people have the image in the public. We have to take a break. We`ll be back with my guests in a sec. don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Okay. We`re back with my panel. Okay let me ask you something about the kids. You know? Should kids go -- who are in the middle of a divorce, Gary, this is for you, too, Gary Neuman, our shrink at large here. Should the kids should go to some kind of counseling I think during the period when everybody`s crazy. We talked about how you`re distracted and can`t pay attention. So don`t you think it should be mandatory that the family should go through some kind of family therapy?
NIGRO: The kids didn`t choose it. And you know they`re forced to deal with the ramifications of it. All of a sudden they`re splitting two households, going back and forth, giving checks to mommy and daddy. It`s horrible, you know?
BEHAR: And they`re experiencing the depression and loss and abandonment.
NIGRO: And it goes on forever.
BEHAR: The same as the parents are. Am I right?
NEUMAN: Very much so. Yeah.
FELDER: And it`s true. On another level, in a bad divorce case where you`re fighting about custody, too many people monkey with the kids. Fathers` monkey, mothers` monkey, people from the court monkey with them. The judges monkey with them. There`s no way to win if there are kids in a divorce.
BEHAR: Yes. I think it should be mandatory. You know Gary; I really think the balloon boy should start right now because that kid is going to have issues. That`s not even a divorce. If you watch those people on "Wife Swaps" they`re rageaholics, the parents. And those kids are told to lie. Those kids are going to be in a lot of trouble if somebody doesn`t intervene.
NEUMAN: There`s no doubt about it. Well you know what we`ve done, a lot of States mandate parents to go to courses. My program is mandated in many States, where children ages 6 to 17 do go to groups with children their own age and they talk about these issues as an automatic referral. So that they can stop feeling guilty and pressured and messengers and have some role play for how they can speak up to their parents.
BEHAR: Okay.
NIGRO: What I`ve seen happen recently, horrible, the mean gene escalates. As people don`t get what they want from somebody on the other side -- keeping one parent from seeing their kids. Using them as pawns for the
BEHAR: Well I think that makes people really nuts and I just saw this play Only Anna the other day. FELDER: No but nuts is an operative word because they do crazy things when they get divorced. People do crazy things.
BEHAR: I was watching -
NEUMAN: They`re polarized.
BEHAR: Yes I do but I saw this play and the play is about -- I have the power and it`s making you nuts. Now you have the power and it`s making me crazy. And I think that that`s what happens in a divorce. One person has the power and they use the children to control the power in the relationship.
NIGRO: Especially if the person has been left and their ego is really hurt and have no self-esteem.
BEHAR: Yes
NEUMAN: And sometimes it`s not mean spirited. You know, when people are married they really do try to work together or put up with somebody else`s issues with the children. Whether it`s religion, school, whatever. When you get divorced, it begins to polarize and each person says, hey, the kids are at my house, now I think the kids should stay up, eat candy, do whatever they want to do. You can`t tell me. Before maybe I was feeding them your food.
BEHAR: Spite work.
NEUMAN: I`m sorry?
BEHAR: A lot of it is spite work.
NEUMAN: And also getting the feeling now I have control of my kids and I didn`t all those years. So it`s not always mean spirited but it comes across to the children very mean spirited.
FELDER: So it`s also weapons. I mean it`s a war so you fight with whatever weapons you have.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The wars of roses. So before we go, \one more quick thing. Which is more expensive, which costs more, a divorce case or murder? Or what if it`s one in the same?
FELDER: That`s a good question. I had several cases of one is the same -- the divorce is much more expensive.
BEHAR: Divorce is more expensive.
FELDER: You look past it.
BEHAR: Thanks very much. Thanks to all of my fantastic guests for joining me tonight and thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
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