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Campbell Brown
Cheney Blasts Obama Over Afghanistan Decision Delay; Flu Vaccine Shortage?
Aired October 23, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, the questions we want answered.
Dick Cheney drops a bomb about Afghanistan. Why?
RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The White House must stop dithering while America's armed forces are in danger.
SANCHEZ: When will the president commit to a plan?
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What Vice President Cheney calls dithering, President Obama calls his solemn responsibility to the men and women in uniform and to the American public.
SANCHEZ: Beyond the war of words, what's going to happen next in Afghanistan?
Will there be enough flu vaccine to keep your family safe?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: About one out of five schoolchildren now have flu-like symptoms.
SANCHEZ: We have known for months it's coming. So, where's the vaccine?
The president punishes Wall Street's fat cats.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It does offend our values when executives of big financial firms pay themselves huge bonuses, even as they continue to rely on taxpayer assistance to stay afloat.
SANCHEZ: Will this CEO pay slash fix Wall Street once and for all? And is this so-called pay czar all bark and no bite?
And what about those pilots who overshot the airport by 150 miles? What happened? Could they really have been asleep?
Tonight, some of the smartest people from CNN's worldwide reporting resources on the biggest stories of the week, your opportunity to find out what this all really means.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. In for Campbell Brown, Rick Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. Campbell Brown is on assignment.
What do you say we mash it up? Let's do it.
How in the world can a pilot miss his destination by 150 miles and fly for more than an hour without noticing it? One hundred and forty-seven passengers, radio silence for 78 minutes. Pilots say that they were bickering. Some experts say, no, no, they were probably asleep. Tonight, one pilot says, no I was not asleep.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD COLE, PILOT: There's a board next week. I will tell you this. Neither of us was asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Richard Cole and fellow pilot Timothy Cheney told police they had become involved in conversation and had not heard radio communications. Investigators may have only their word to go by.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The cockpit voice recorder from Northwest Flight 188 was handed over to investigators Friday afternoon, but it is only 30 minutes long.
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": Why did the pilots of Northwest Airlines Flight 188 fly hundreds of miles past their destination Wednesday evening and what was going on in the cockpit?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Passenger Brent Beurlan (ph) was in row 17 and kept looking out the window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are we still way above the clouds? We can't see any city lights here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What investigators already find tough to believe is that the pilots were simply arguing. Because they were based in Minneapolis, but live in the Northwest, the probe will also focus on fatigue. Were the pilots commuting to work during hours they should have been sleeping?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Either explanation is not really acceptable
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or credible?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Either explanation doesn't work very well for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here's another headline for you. More than 1,000 people in the United States have died from swine flu and 100 of them are children. So far, a record 60 million people have gotten the seasonal flu shot. But millions want the swine flu shot. That had the CDC's top doc on the defense today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: Vaccine production is much less predictable than we would wish. Not having enough of it is enormously frustrating to all of us. It's frustrating to all of us. We share the frustration of people. We're doing everything we can.
Manufacturers are working hard. We have been working hard to get vaccine out, to get as much vaccine out safely as soon as it becomes available, as soon as it becomes available.
The enemy here is a virus. The enemy again here is the virus. Vaccine strands of the virus grow and that's how we develop vaccine. Even if you yell at them, they don't grow faster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, I want to take you to Pakistan now, more bombings today. Taliban insurgents said that they would do it. And guess what? They did it, multiple attacks across the country. Why? Because the Pakistani military is going after the Taliban and other Islamic militants, to which most Americans, by the way, say, good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It all started Friday morning just outside of Islamabad. That's where police officials tell CNN a suicide bomber riding a bicycle went up to a check post outside an Air Force base. When security personnel tried to search him, he blew himself up, killing at least seven people.
Later, on Friday, police say a bus full of people drove over a land mine. The government continues to maintain most of these attacks are orchestrated and launched by the Taliban.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I want to show you something now. This is as big a boom as we have seen in a long time and certainly the biggest in Puerto Rico. That is a mysterious black cloud rising over San Juan Bay. At least one fuel tank exploded just after midnight. And by this afternoon, 18 of the 40 tanks were on fire.
The explosion shattered windows miles away. No serious injuries reported, but at least 350 people were evacuated to a nearby stadium. And schools remain closed.
This graffiti you see right there on the right may provide a lead for police. It says "Boom! Fuego!" It was written before the blast apparently. But so far, not much else is known about it.
Ohio, this is about one couple's unbelievable story, husband and wife, both with breast cancer. But here's Michael and Barbara Welsh on "The Today Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine months after Barbara found a lump in her breast, Mike found one of his own.
You were shocked?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, because I didn't know that men could get breast cancer. You see all the ads on TV of the women doing the monthly exams. You never see a man doing that. So, how are we supposed to know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mike's cancer was diagnosed just like Barbara's, through an ultrasound. Both have had surgery to remove their breast tumors. She's now in her last round of radiation and will be there when his treatment begins soon.
What has it been like for the two of you going through this trauma at the same time?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If nothing else, we have got one another. I'm there for him and he's there for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now this, first lady Michelle Obama talking health care today, the event in the first lady's garden to help mark Breast Cancer Awareness Month, Mrs. Obama pushing her husband's reform agenda, especially when it comes to preexisting conditions. One of the big pushes from the White House, a message that she also delivered online today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Barack's plan is about ensuring that everyone in this country can care for their families and follow their dreams and have the chance to make of their lives what they wish.
And it's hard to achieve those dreams if you can't rely on quality, affordable health insurance. That's what's at stake. And that's what we're fighting for. That's what this health care debate is all about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And this. It's as much a part of Americana as well, Norman Rockwell family portraits.
This is the official Obama family portrait that will be seen for centuries and in the history books. It is the first of its type. It was shot in the White House Green Room by a photographer who in many ways is just as famous as celebrity subjects, Annie Leibovitz.
I can hear it now. "Malia, stop pinching Sasha. Cut that out. And get the gum out of your mouth." Why do I say? Well, because that's pretty much what I had to do when my wife and I had our family pics shot.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Damn kids.
All right, now the "Punchline" for you and perfect opportunity to pay tribute to comedian Soupy Sales, who died yesterday. He was 83. And, man, was he funny. A lot of my younger colleagues probably never heard of him, but everybody knows and imitates his most famous punchline of all. He started this: a pie in the face.
That was Frank Sinatra, by the way, that got pied in that case. He's probably pieing somewhere up there right now. And what a perfect way to end the "Mash-Up."
Dick Cheney, he says the White House is, his word, dithering. So, the White House fires back. Is this an argument at a high school prom or members of two administrations talking publicly about America's business? And is Afghanistan ever going to get its act together politically to warrant more troops? Two of CNN's best join me live next, Christiane Amanpour and Michael Ware.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Tonight, we're going to bring together a wide-ranging group of CNN reporters to talk some of the week's biggest stories. And, look, let's be clear about this. Even though it sometimes seems like war fatigue has set in, in the United States, Afghanistan remains one of the most important stories that is impacting Americans today, still. So, let's talk about it. What do you say?
It's been a crucial week as President Obama moves ever closer to a decision on sending more troops into Afghanistan. Here's the big news. Afghanistan's president finally has agreed to a runoff election. Remember, we were talking about this earlier in the week? Will the results help make our president's mind? Does he need to pay more attention also to the new criticism being that is leveled by former Vice President Dick Cheney?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAHM EMANUEL, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: It would be reckless to make a decision on U.S. troop level if, in fact, you haven't done a thorough analysis of whether, in fact, there's an Afghan partner ready to fill that space.
CHENEY: Having announced his Afghanistan strategy in March, President Obama now seems afraid to make a decision.
The White House must stop dithering while America's forces are in danger.
GIBBS: What Vice President Cheney calls dithering, President Obama calls his solemn responsibility to the men and women in uniform and to the American public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, CNN's Michael ware is often on the front lines to bring the war story home to us. We have got him here tonight, though, and the host of "AMANPOUR" every Sunday, our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.
Great to have both of you here. Let me read something to you. I just -- you know what I did? I went to the wires and I got the first wire story. This is a CNN wire, by the way. I'm going to read it to both of you.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That scares me.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes. Don't be scared.
"Cheney in speech" -- all right? Let me go back here. Washington, D.C., dateline. "President Barack Obama could decide how many additional U.S. troops to send to Afghanistan before the country's November 7 runoff election, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said."
Are we assuming -- are we assuming that more troops are going to be sent, and, if so, when?
AMANPOUR: Look, who knows when or how many? But, clearly, they have already said they're not going to pull back or retreat. So, some number of troops are going to be sent, presumably.
The question is, to what end? As you know, there's a big debate in Washington, counterterrorism or counterinsurgency. Counterterrorism is less Afghan-based, more Pakistan-based. Counterinsurgency is much more Afghan-based, as per General McChrystal.
And, interestingly, interestingly, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has been at NATO today and has had an endorsement by the NATO ministers and the NATO secretary-general of General McChrystal's plan, counterinsurgency, protect the people, finish the job that you were here eight years...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you what a lot of Americans think as they watch it.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
SANCHEZ: And I want to ask you to take a look, because you've done the Iraq thing as well.
And so have you.
Are we trying to put down an ideology with military might? And is that possible, plain and simple?
WARE: No, no. You're way past that.
SANCHEZ: All right.
WARE: Maybe in the beginning, maybe in the beginning, just after 9/11. Certainly, going into Iraq, there was this ideal democratic vision, this ideology that was trying to be planted in soil where it simply wasn't going to grow.
SANCHEZ: You're saying there's not an ideology, an anti-American ideology, a pro...
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: Oh, that you're fighting against?
SANCHEZ: Yes, in Afghanistan.
WARE: In Afghanistan -- look, in Afghanistan, the Afghans are worried about Afghanistan.
SANCHEZ: Right.
WARE: Let's face it. And you have stepped into a region -- you were brought there by 9/11, but you have stepped into one of the murkiest, most fiercely fought-over regions for influence. You've got Pakistan, India in there. India is in there. China is in there. Iran is in there. It's not a simple place to operate.
So, it goes way beyond anti-Americanism. And it's just about trying to get that country right to a degree that you can leave it.
AMANPOUR: Well, let's just sort of cut through all the huffing and puffing.
SANCHEZ: We like that. Let's cut.
AMANPOUR: Look, America sent the Taliban and al Qaeda packing in seven short weeks after 9/11. It was done. There was a huge amount of support for the United States and for its mission there. There was a huge amount of progress made and a lot of promise.
And then, quite simply, America diverted its resources and its patience and its energy and its war to Iraq, and took all the highly trained intelligence people, the people who spoke the language, all of those, away from Afghanistan and into Iraq.
So, what's happened? Yes, you have been at war for eight years. But, no, for those eight years, you haven't been focused on Iraq -- on Afghanistan. SANCHEZ: But let me say something. At the very beginning of this, there's one guy in Afghanistan we didn't get. We didn't get Osama bin Laden.
And the man that Suskind, Ron Suskind, says in his book that didn't get him is the guy who came out today and said this -- let me read this to you -- in a speech, again, CNN wires.
Dick Cheney said, this administration is afraid to make a decision, that they're dithering. "Make no mistake. Signals of indecision out of Washington hurt our allies and embolden our adversaries."
That's Dick Cheney.
AMANPOUR: Well, here's the thing.
I'm not going to get into Washington parlor games. The fact of the matter is, as I said, that, for many years, the focus was taken off Afghanistan by the Bush administration. And now they're having to refocus to try to pull what was victory, to try -- which -- defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory in the last few years.
But the most important thing for people to understand, I think, because this is crucial, is that the Afghan people don't see the United States forces as occupiers. They believe that the U.S. came in 2002 to help them, to liberate them, to set them...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Do you disagree?
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: No, the Taliban see them as occupiers -- the majority of the Afghan people -- this is very crucial -- do not...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: He's giving me one of these, though.
AMANPOUR: Because -- he's not right.
SANCHEZ: Like maybe yes, maybe not.
WARE: Well, I just came back from the villages.
AMANPOUR: He's not right.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: I have been in the villages, too.
WARE: I know. I know.
(CROSSTALK) AMANPOUR: No, this is really crucial.
SANCHEZ: OK.
AMANPOUR: It is a misnomer to call Afghanistan the graveyard of empires.
Yes, it happened to the Soviets. Yes, it happened to the British. But this liberation of Afghanistan by the United States was something very different. And, to this day, everybody, from the villages, up to President Karzai, and in between, say that, no, we believe that you came to do something good for us.
What you haven't done is kept your promises. And that's the debate that is going on in the villages of Afghanistan.
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: That's true. That's true. No, that's very true.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: What's the difference that you find with what she just said?
WARE: Well, I mean, there's a degree to which the Afghans, you have to understand, are very Afghan.
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
WARE: Even a Pakistani who comes just from across the border is a foreigner.
When al Qaeda was there, in the last months, years of al Qaeda's presence there with the Taliban, al Qaeda was starting to take over a little bit, putting advisers in ministries.
The Afghans, even the Taliban bristled at that. They said, you may be good Muslim warriors, but you're still Arabs. Any foreigner in that country for too long comes to be seen as an occupier.
And we're drifting to that. Despite our intentions, and despite our good deeds and our misdeeds, there is a growing perception, particularly in the south, which is where this war is being fought kinetically, of a sense of occupation, good-intentioned, well- intentioned or not.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: It's...
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: And that is what's drawn a lot of the tribes there who weren't fighting for the Taliban to the Taliban now. And that's why we're seeing the Karzai government step up and start to build militias.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: What's drawing people to the Taliban -- which, by the way, is some 4 to 6 to 10 percent. Let's not exaggerate. The majority of the people in Afghanistan believe in wanting something better for themselves and believe in the government.
No, it's really crucial, this...
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
AMANPOUR: .. because it obfuscates so much of the debate that's going on right now.
The fact of the matter is, the promises weren't kept. The eye was not on the ball. What had been a progress in security was allowed to fall apart. What had been progress, even in corruption, even in drugs interdiction, was allowed to fall apart.
And now what you have got is the result of the work not having been done. Meantime, the Afghan people still want progress, still want development. And it's going to take a long, long time. And the American people and the politicians have to have the patience, according to the Afghan people.
SANCHEZ: I have got to ask you this question.
I want to read General McChrystal correctly. And I'm not sure that the media has read him correctly. We keep reporting that he is all but insisting on sending more troops in there.
Is he really insisting, or is he saying to the administration, much in the way you just suggested, we dropped the ball for a long time; look, if you're going to do this, you have got to go in full- bore...
WARE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... or forget about it; let's just walk away?
WARE: That's what he's doing.
SANCHEZ: Which is different from insisting.
WARE: Well, this is the fundamental question that's currently sitting on President Obama's desk. And it goes from the security aspect, where I focus, and it goes to the broader issues that Christiane is touching upon. Who cares how we got here?
SANCHEZ: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Who cares? It was 9/11. It was 9/11 that got us here. (CROSSTALK)
WARE: No, just let me finish.
Who cares how we got here? We're here, right?
SANCHEZ: Right.
WARE: Are you going to fight this war, in all its manifestation, guns and bullets, aid, roads, electricity, hospitals, or are you not?
SANCHEZ: Down to 30 seconds.
WARE: He's got to -- this is what McChrystal is saying basically to the president. Stand up, fight the war...
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: ... or let's go home.
SANCHEZ: Or walk away.
WARE: I guess it's pack up and go home.
SANCHEZ: Do you agree?
AMANPOUR: No.
General McChrystal has been asked to give his advice on how to do it. If you want to do it like this, then this is how many troops. If you want to do it like that, it's this many troops. And they will salute and do the job.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: But the Afghan people want the promises that were made kept, and they want progress.
WARE: Very true.
SANCHEZ: And we will leave it on that passionate discussion. I really enjoyed this. We have got to do this again.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Christiane Amanpour is back this weekend -- and you're both smiling over there -- with a report on the opium trade in Afghanistan. That's going to be good.
WARE: Oh, yes, I can give some personal accounts of that.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: "AMANPOUR" airs Sunday afternoon at 3:00 on CNN. Really great to have you guys. Really enjoyed it.
Two pilots fly for 150 miles before hearing the tower trying to reach them. And they say they were bickering. Were they really asleep?
WARE: No, no, no, no, no.
SANCHEZ: Also, the president hits Wall Street and it seems to be a political winner. Where's the opposition, though?
Stay right there. This gets good. We're talking to our people tonight.
Look at you over there.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
With Christiane and Michael Ware continuing their spirited debate behind me, let me tell you about something else. The White House is cracking down on Wall Street this week. But is it all for political show? And, by the way, here's a question maybe some of us should think about. Where's the opposition to this one?
We have got some of the best minds in the business that are going to be breaking this down for you, using our own people who study this stuff day in and day out, a Friday free-for-all, you might say, just for you news junkies out there. Hope you're enjoying it.
(NEWS BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Why should I care, why should any of us care if Wall Street executives get a huge bonus? And those of us who are angry at them, are we jealous? Think about it. Is that what goes on in this country? We jealous of the guy who has got all the bucks? It's an interesting question that can only be understood when you throw the facts into this. And we have got them. And we're going to do just that for you.
Also, what do you do with six people who are in prison for rape and torture, when the woman that they raped and torture comes out and says, you know what, I made the whole thing up? Here's where it gets even more bizarre. We learned just five minutes before I went on the air today that now one of the attackers is saying, no, she's lying. We really did do it.
What?
Stay with us. We are going to take you through this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
The table's moving, as we gather all our people. Tonight, we're calling on some of the smartest people at CNN to take a look at some of the biggest stories of the week.
We're all going back to take a step and take a breath and tell you what's really going on behind the headlines. But we're going to make this passionate.
And we're going to start with H1N1. We have known for months that this was coming. Where is the vaccine?
All right, here with me now is Christine Romans, Elizabeth Cohen, Roland Martin, Joe Johns, and the Toob-meister, Jeffrey Toobin.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: All right. Here we go. H1N1, let's start with this.
I'm not calling any names. You guys, you're ready to go. Let's -- let's do it.
Government is saying, you know what? They may not have enough vaccines. I'm asking, why is this a big deal? Anybody?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a big deal because we've been hearing about how dangerous H1N1 is and we're told get your vaccine and you can't get it. I've been looking for a vaccine for my children for weeks now, and I can't find it.
SANCHEZ: A thousand people have died from swine flu so far, yet I'm looking at numbers that show me that 36,000 people die of just the flu in general every single year. The question continues to be, is this thing getting overblown?
COHEN: I don't think it's getting overblown and the reason I don't think, and this is going to sound harsh, but most of the people who die of seasonal flu, of regular flu, are very, very old.
Now, I love old people. I have grandparents I love. I love old people. But it is different when a 95-year-old grandmother in a nursing home dies than when a 5-year-old child dies. It is just different.
SANCHEZ: So -- so --
COHEN: Swine flu is attacking a younger population.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead, anybody?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Rick, you know what I find disturbing about the H1N1 story is how much anti-science attitude there is out there. The same people who are attacking vaccines who are endangering children are talking about how they don't believe in the vaccine, they think it's corporate medicine. You know, that is a dangerous attitude that, you know, these new age people or people on the other side of the political spectrum saying, you know, we don't want to take vaccines.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me help you. Let me help you.
TOOBIN: That is dangerous.
SANCHEZ: Let me help you. Let me tell you who's doing that. I've got a list right here. I wrote it down before we came on. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, they're on the right. Bill Maher, he's on the left. How has this thing become political, Joe?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: People are scared. People are scared of vaccines, period. They're not sure about them at all. And the real problem here is that the first global pandemic with the flu in 41 years, there's all this technology, there's new science. But we haven't figured out how to convince people to get over their fears, get the shot and also deliver the shot in a timely fashion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
JOHNS: So some very primitive problems, even though we're pretty advanced.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: Do you know what I think is going to change things here? You know what I think is going to change things?
SANCHEZ: What's that?
COHEN: I was at the pediatrician with my daughter today. I was afraid she had strep throat. She didn't. But the pediatrician was telling me he has a 1-year-old child on a ventilator in the intensive care unit at Children's Hospital of Atlanta right now. And as more of those stories get out -- this was a perfectly healthy kid who might die because of swine flu.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: And I saw a --
COHEN: And if more of those stories get out, man, there's going to be line for that vaccine.
ROMANS: And I saw the alarm also at my pediatrician's office, too. And I think that anybody who's talking to their pediatrician, talking to Sanjay Gupta, for example, I asked him and many people who work here have asked him are you going to get your three daughters the immunization, and he said yes he will. And so that -- you know that tells you something when people with small children are talking to their pediatricians and their pediatricians are telling them that this is definitely serious.
SANCHEZ: You know what I'm wondering -- Roland, go ahead, but I got a question. In fact, can I hold you for just a minute?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Go ahead.
SANCHEZ: If the problem is that children are more susceptible, then why is everybody being inoculated? Why don't we -- if we have a lack of vaccines and the biggest and most susceptible group are children, why don't we restrict the vaccines for children?
COHEN: You know what, Rick, that's not 100 percent right. Actually you see the highest numbers of deaths in adults, not in children.
So children are affected. Adults are affected. What's different compared to seasonal flu is that you're not seeing the elderly affected. So that's what's different. But it would be very hard to say only kids can get this when adults are dying as well.
SANCHEZ: All right. Go ahead. Roland, you get the last word.
MARTIN: Very simple, Americans, we are reactive. We are not proactive. We knew there were problems with the o-rings, but when the space shuttle blew up, then we say, oh, we might want to fix this. When we see cars all of a sudden have problems with tires, we say, you know what, it's no big deal until you see thousands of Americans die.
That is the problem. We are so reactive, we wait for things to happen. And then it's too late. And so that's why you see the hysteria. But you know what? If one of their loved ones dies, trust me, their attitude will change overnight.
SANCHEZ: All right, good stuff. Stay right here, guys.
Here's an interesting story of the day. How do two Northwest pilots miss their mark by 150 miles? I mean, could they have been asleep or were they bickering?
And then later, we've got the goods on President Obama beef with FOX News. And I'm taking sides on this one. I'm in FOX's corner.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We've got some good information to share with you today. This week, the president of the United States went after the fat cats on Wall Street, limiting their bonuses and cutting their pay by as much as 90 percent in some cases. Now, this is only for the top 25 execs at seven companies that got bailout money. So let's be clear about this, not everybody across the board, right?
And look, American people are digging this big-time. Is anybody in the group surprised by that? I went on Twitter the other day and I couldn't somebody to side with the Wall Street guys.
ROMANS: This satisfies the blood lust of the populace pitchfork- bearing, you know --
SANCHEZ: Blood lust?
ROMANS: No, it does. But look, I want to be very clear here, this is not going to put one middle class worker back to work. It's not going to put one person back to work. It's going to satisfy our anger, our justified anger that the very people who brought the system down were going to be paid millions of dollars.
SANCHEZ: Is there any --
ROMANS: Won't put anybody to work.
TOOBIN: I think it's something more than that. I don't think it's just blood lust. You know, I think Americans are capitalist. They don't begrudge Bill Gates, Steve Jobs making a lot of money because people buy their product. The problem with Wall Street salaries is that it was a rigged game, is that they did well whether the companies did well or not, and whether they helped to bring down the economy down or not.
ROMANS: Right. Maybe you could have pointed this to me.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Hey, it's a good idea.
MARTIN: But, Jeffrey, it even goes beyond that. Here is the deal. These individuals are getting paid because they were making money. Their jobs were saved because of us. If they went out of business, there are no bonuses.
ROMANS: And this is the hall --
MARTIN: That is the fundamental problem.
ROMANS: And this is the hall of shame.
COHEN: And Christine, explain something to me for a second.
ROMANS: Sure.
COHEN: There's something I don't get.
ROMANS: Yes.
COHEN: When I hear the word bonus, I think that's extra money you get for a job well done.
ROMANS: Right.
COHEN: If the job isn't well done, why do you get a bonus of even one cent?
SANCHEZ: Because it's in the contract. You've got a contract.
ROMANS: Because many of these are guaranteed bonuses, and I've always said there should be no such thing as a guaranteed bonus because that seems like -- you know, an oxymoron. But what's interesting to me too about this pay cut, some of these people are still going to make millions and millions of dollars. One person at Bank of America is still going to make $10 million, and some of them are going to get $2 million, $3 million, $4 million bonuses. Still at AIG, they were kind of waived some of the rules for three big executives at AIG. So I think the issue here is that Main Street is still looking at this and saying, wait a second, how is it fair that any of these people get $2 million?
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you Joe, you follow this every day. Is there any opposition to this? Because I'm not hearing anything from the Republicans...
JOHNS: No, no.
SANCHEZ: ... using this as an opportunity to beat on Obama.
JOHNS: Republicans, particularly conservatives, know there are certain fast-moving trains you do not step in front of and this is one of them.
ROMANS: Politics.
SANCHEZ: But this is a free market here. We have to come out and argue if they got a contract, you got to be paid your money.
JOHNS: True conservatives -- true conservatives will say to you that the true American way for these companies was to let them go belly-up, bankrupt.
ROMANS: Yes.
JOHNS: That's what they should have done.
ROMANS: That's right.
JOHNS: They shouldn't have gotten a cent. Not ten percent of the dollar. Nothing.
ROMANS: They say two wrongs still make a right. They say, you know, this is just two wrongs here.
JOHNS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: But the question is --
MARTIN: You know what? I'll take that wrong and I'll leave a hell with Wall Street. You've got $2 million bonus, guess what? Suck it up, be happy because you could have been out of a job. And the average person trying to be a greeter at Wal-Mart or trying to sweep some floors up, and we're sitting here working in some office with these guys saying, oh, we can't retain people. Where are they going to go work? At a fast-food restaurant? I don't think so.
ROMANS: No. They're going to Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase. They're going to hedge funds. I mean, they'll find other places to work if they're not happy with their pay. They'll find other places to work.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: How bad they look? SANCHEZ: The president gets to be getting all these kudos for this. But you've got to wonder, I mean, this isn't really that big of a deal, not until he starts hitting the hammer again. Is that on the way? Are they going to be more regulations, more restrictions?
ROMANS: Regulations is where the change happens with regulations. This is -- I've heard it called the band-aid before you have to have the open heart surgery basically to have the regulations to make sure this doesn't happen again. But again, the point here about -- it feels good to cut all this pay and it's probably right. I mean, they deserved it. But, but, it's not going to put anybody back to work.
SANCHEZ: I'm going to have to cut --
ROMANS: And that's the big problem.
SANCHEZ: I've got to cut it off because we're running of time. But there's so much that we've got to get into. We've got to talk about this pilot, 150 miles past the place that he was supposed to stop in and it turns out that somebody was trying to reach him the whole time. What is going on here?
And then FOX News versus the White House. Who's right? Should we even be having this argument? And is there a historical president that was set by Abraham Lincoln?
I bet you didn't know that. I do because I talked to Helen Thomas yesterday, and she set me straight. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. By general consensus, we're going to go on to the FOX News topic. The throw-down from the White House against FOX News.
And I want to give you a little bit of a historical perspective on this. All right. Let me bring you some information.
Richard M. Nixon kept an enemies list of journalists he hated. Franklin Roosevelt made one "New York Times" reporter wear a dunce cap at press briefings. He hated the guy so much he decided to humiliate him in front of his peers.
That's right. I learned this from Helen Thomas yesterday. And, no, Helen Thomas did not cover Abraham Lincoln. But she also told me that he issued executive orders to have certain reporters and editors arrested and held in military prisons because he deemed their work irresponsible.
When you look at some of this historical analysis, is what the president did to FOX News that big a deal?
Joe?
JOHNS: I talked to one conservative today who said the president's making a big mistake because he is elevating FOX News, number one, to the level of the president, which is just simply not appropriate.
ROMANS: Yes.
JOHNS: Now, what we know is, usually when presidents go after news organizations, they simply don't win. And so why try it? On the other hand, this is uncharted territory in the land of the 24-hour news cycle. So, do they get fight? Do they get their sides --
SANCHEZ: Is he wrong? Is he wrong? I mean, we're all journalists.
TOOBIN: Rick -- Rick --
SANCHEZ: Shouldn't we be defending FOX News?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Hell no.
TOOBIN: No, Rick, with all due respect --
MARTIN: No.
TOOBIN: With all due -- Rick, with all due respect to your comparison, I think it's ridiculous. Barack Obama is not throwing anyone in prison. And second, think about what the Obama administration has said. They have said, David Axelrod says, FOX News is a conservative network. You know what I call that statement? True. It's true.
Why should they pretend that FOX is something different? MSNBC is a liberal political network? But I think dealing with the reality of what these networks is is perfectly appropriate. They're not throwing anyone in jail.
COHEN: And, Jeff, you're --
TOOBIN: They're not barring them to go in the press conference.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Is he just saying -- is he just saying that --
COHEN: You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.
SANCHEZ: But are they just saying they're a conservative network?
MARTIN: No, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Or are they actually going out and saying they're the opposition?
MARTIN: Rick, no. The target -- SANCHEZ: Opposition is different than a conservative network.
MARTIN: Rick, you're missing it. The target is not FOX News. If you remember the Clinton administration, Matt Drudge all of a sudden people talked about how his influence was so great. You know why? Because all of these television producers and radio producers, they were reading Drudge, taking what he put, putting it to their shows.
What the White House is saying is, other newspapers and other networks and talk shows, they are being driven by the stuff that's on FOX News. So what they're actually trying do is say, hey, stop following those guys, stop listening to their lies and repeating it. That's the real issue.
SANCHEZ: All right. News people --
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: But by making -- somebody making a big deal of this --
SANCHEZ: Let's go one at a time. We'll take it out there then back to you, Joe.
COHEN: By making a big deal of this, I think that it calls more attention to FOX News. And it will make some people want to follow FOX News more because Obama has made such a big deal of it.
SANCHEZ: Joe?
JOHNS: The problem with this is when a White House goes after a news organization or an individual journalist and makes a big deal out of that person, the question is, there but by the grace of God go I. I'm not a big defender of FOX News. But on the other hand, I am a correspondent, a journalist who could find himself on the short end of the stick next time in another situation.
MARTIN: But, Joe, that's the difference.
JOHNS: I'm just not so sure.
MARTIN: That's the difference. You are a journalist. What the White House is saying is you've got people who are masquerading as journalists. The issues are here. Are you making up things, or are you sitting here speaking to truth? When you have a network that drives death panels, what happens? All of a sudden, if you get to the conversation, then we start doing stories, well, are there death panels?
We know from a fact there are no death panels. That's the issue.
SANCHEZ: But that's not fair to say that the entire network is filled with people who are doing that just because there are several shows that may be in that direction.
MARTIN: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick -- SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
MARTIN: I talked to Eric Burns (ph), the media mogul (ph) this morning on the morning show. They have the documentation where even on the news shows on FOX Network, they are using the same language, the same talking points as those talk shows.
I saw -- during the campaign, I saw a FOX anchor talking about oh, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright he was burning up the airwaves. Here talking about it, Bill O'Reilly. Well, we know what he's going to say. You reinforced the line.
TOOBIN: And there's another factor here is that, you know, when FOX News decides that the tea parties and the rally in Washington by the tea party people is a big story, some people followed that. Well, you know, there was a gay rights rally in Washington with just about as many people that got almost no coverage because it didn't have a television network pushing it.
SANCHEZ: That's a great point. That's a great point.
TOOBIN: And I think, you know, we have to make the decision about what's news and FOX News can make their judgment. But they shouldn't be setting the agenda for the rest of us.
MARTIN: There you go.
SANCHEZ: We're going to leave it there. We're going to come back in just a little bit. And as promised, we're going to be talking about the situation, should we be a little worried when we hear pilots, professionals in the cockpit for years saying that they believe that these two pilots that missed their mark by 150 miles and by one hour missed their mark because they were sleeping in the cockpit with 147 passengers in that plane? It's a good question. One of the last, when we come back with our panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I'm Rick Sanchez. My producer says we've got three and a half minutes to get into this topic, so let's do it as fast as we possibly can.
Two pilots apparently are being accused of being asleep at the switch or in the cockpit. They missed their destination, Minneapolis, by 150 miles. An hour after the tower was trying to reach them, they finally talked to the tower and said, sorry, we were bickering with each other about airline policy and it's got a lot of people asking questions if pilots are asleep in the cockpit.
TOOBIN: Yes, right.
SANCHEZ: What's that say about the rest of us and those 147 passengers who they were -- who they were in control?
ROMANS: We didn't know what was going on. They say they were in some kind of a vigorous discussion. What if they were asleep? We know that the tapes have been delivered to Washington, D.C. to be analyzed by the federal authorities. We don't know what's on the tapes, so we should know.
SANCHEZ: Bickering for an hour?
ROMANS: But it doesn't matter what --
JOHNS: Delta and Northwest are in a merger, that's what we know.
MARTIN: We know, Rick, they were debating the White House and FOX News.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNS: The Delta/Northwest merger, I'm telling you.
COHEN: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what caused them to get distracted. It doesn't matter what caused them to get distracted. They missed their mark. Who cares if they were drunk, asleep, bickering? Who cares?
SANCHEZ: Well, wait a minute, drunk would be a whole different --
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: I know, I'm just throwing it out there.
JOHNS: They were not drunk.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
JOHNS: They got a breath test.
COHEN: That's good to know. OK.
TOOBIN: Has anyone looked into the possibility that these two pilots were married? Could that be why --
ROMANS: I heard someone raise that question.
TOOBIN: Love and marriage. Let's look at the bright side.
ROMANS: Way to go, Jeff.
SANCHEZ: Let's let Toobin get in here. Go ahead.
TOOBIN: Let's look at the bright side. I made it to Minneapolis. I'm here. So, the heck with everybody else.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: You know, I heard a pilot say today that there's an airline policy that says that pilots are not allowed to take naps. And some pilots are saying if you've got a long flight, there's nothing wrong with one guy staying in control and saying to the other guys, go ahead and take a cat nap if you need it. In this case, maybe they both needed naps and they both dozed out.
MARTIN: Rick, actually, there was a flight -- a Go Airline flight in Hawaii last year where both pilots fell asleep and the plane was flying by itself on auto pilot for 18 minutes. But again, I don't care if a pilot says is OK. If you're airline procedure says you can't do it, you don't go to sleep. You never know what's happen.
SANCHEZ: That's true.
MARTIN: Remember the story of the pilot --
TOOBIN: I spoke to a pilot last weekend who said, you know the problem with us is that we love flying too much. And we're willing to do it at ridiculously low wages and at ridiculously long hours. And that was what apparently caused that terrible crash in Buffalo...
ROMANS: Right.
TOOBIN: ... people working, you know, around the clock. And that's something I think people should obviously look into whether that's relevant to what happened --
SANCHEZ: By the way --
COHEN: But are there limits on how much time they can spend flying?
SANCHEZ: Let me just say something for the record. The pilot came out tonight and did an interview with ABC News, I understand. Is that right, Janelle (ph)? Was that ABC? ABC News. And he said unequivocally that he was not asleep in the cockpit. So for the record, the pilot has spoken for the first time tonight.
MARTIN: Were they arguing? I mean, an hour 18 minutes, that's one heck of an argument.
SANCHEZ: You're not getting to let that go.
JOHNS: Whatever they were doing, the scariest part of all is the fact that in a post-9/11 world, the military was talking about scrambling jets and something really, really bad could happen. So these are the kinds of things that they really have to sort of work out.
SANCHEZ: We've got a minute left. What's the big story that's going to happen this coming week? What are you going to be following?
JOHNS: Health care, health care, health care. I think that's --
SANCHEZ: With or without the public option?
JOHNS: Probably a little public option. What the states can option out. That's what it's sounding like right now.
SANCHEZ: Are Dems going to get the public option in there?
JOHNS: It sounds like Democrats are working very hard to get something in there where states can opt out. There are still some people who are concerned about it.
MARTIN: Rick, the most -- the most undercovered story, the attack with the Obama administration fighting teachers union when it comes to education. We focus on health care, but that is the real issue that we need to be looking at, how they're transforming education.
SANCHEZ: Jeff?
MARTIN: The unions don't like it.
SANCHEZ: Jeff Toobin, what's on your mind?
TOOBIN: The last four spots are open in the World Cup for soccer in 2010.
(LAUGHTER)
And I am very worried about who the last four are. But the United States has made it, which is great news.
SANCHEZ: Ladies?
ROMANS: Things starting to gel with regulation really changing things on Wall Street. Can the president and his team move it beyond just cutting pay and talking about things and really getting some momentum in Congress?
SANCHEZ: And on the medical front?
COHEN: Flu, flu, flu and where are the vaccines.
SANCHEZ: You guys are great. What a fantastic panel. Can we do this again?
MARTIN: Cut their pay, cut their pay.
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: It's already been done, my friend. Thank you been cut.
SANCHEZ: This guy is such a populist. He knows who's buttering his bread.
MARTIN: Just whack them. Just whack them.
SANCHEZ: "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming your way in just a few minutes. You stay right there. He's got Suzanne Somers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up in just a little bit, but we've got some video that we just got in. I've got to share this with you.
It's the first lady. Mike Galanos is following this for us.
Mike, what do we have? Roll the videotape.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Here we go. Michelle Obama, Jay Leno, ten and ten (ph), a couple of rapid fire questions for you. Let's check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST: Question number six, your husband just won the Nobel Peace Prize. Would he rather have world peace or have the White Sox win the World Series?
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, that's a tough one. And I think if you would ask him, he'd say he'd probably prefer world peace but he wouldn't mind a World Series bid, too. But I think he'd choose world peace.
LENO: The most annoying habit the president has.
OBAMA: Ooh, we don't have enough time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: Great line.
SANCHEZ: We don't have enough time. There you go. Man, that sounds just like my wife. Just kidding, honey.
Hey, thanks so much, Mike. We enjoyed you bringing us that.
Hope you liked the format today. We basically put some of our smartest people here with me and I tried to hold my own against them. Here's one of our smartest people now.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now. Have a great weekend.
