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Joy Behar Page
Jackson Movie Controversy; Is Atheism the New Religion?
Aired October 26, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, controversy over the upcoming Michael Jackson movie, "This Is It;" the king may be dead, but long live those royalties.
Then is atheism the new religion? Pastor Doug Wilson and author Christopher Hitchens will join me for a spirited debate.
Plus, he`s not really a plumber and he`s not really a political strategist. But that hasn`t stopped him from campaigning for Republican candidate. Joining me in the studio, "Joe the Plumber."
All this and more starts now.
The Michael Jackson movie "This Is It" opens this week and already there`s controversy. Jackson`s father says body doubles were used to fake Michael`s appearance and other critics say the film`s producers are squeezing one last payday out of Jackson who died in June.
Joining me to discuss are Firpo Carr, friend of the Jackson family and former Jackson family spokesman; Roger Friedman, publisher and creator of Showbiz411.com and Bryan Monroe, former editor of "Everyday" magazine, and the man who conducted Jackson`s last major U.S. interview.
Welcome to everybody.
I want to start with the clip. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(EXCERPTS FROM MICHAEL JACKSON`S "THIS IS IT")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Firpo, are you going to see this movie?
FIRPO CARR, FORMER JACKSON SPOKESMAN: No.
BEHAR: Why not?
CARR: I do not believe that it is an accurate depiction of Michael Jackson. I understand that he was under duress when he was doing this whole thing and that it was not a pretty picture. In fact, I`ve been contacted by fans all over the world, over 90 countries and some of them are boycotting it.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
ROGER FRIEDMAN, SHOWBIZ411.COM: Yes.
BEHAR: Roger, do you think this is way to celebrate Michael`s life which actually...
FRIEDMAN: Oh yes.
BEHAR: ... profits from it?
FRIEDMAN: Both. I mean, there`s going to be profit from it. And the profit is going to go to his kids, which is fine. It`s going to pay off what it cost to put together the concerts that didn`t happen in London.
BEHAR: Right.
FRIEDMAN: But it`s also a great way to celebrate Michael`s life. There`s nothing wrong with this film. I notice the fans -- some fan group has gotten together. You can find a conspiracy in any subject.
BEHAR: Yes.
FRIEDMAN: They want to say that something has been altered, the music has been altered, Michael`s body has been altered, whatever. Nothing has been altered; these were films that were taken at the rehearsals. They weren`t going to be used originally for a film. They were just being taken. And when Michael died they realized they needed some proof that he was not in bad shape before he died.
So we`re getting...
BEHAR: All right.
FRIEDMAN: ... we`ll get to see it tomorrow.
BEHAR: Yes. His sister LaToya said she won`t see it. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys going to go and watch the movie as a whole family?
LATOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it won`t happen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LaToya, where will you see the movie?
JACKSON: We`re not seeing it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At all?
JACKSON: Thank you so much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, ok.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. And you know, Firpo, you know the family well. What do you think is behind LaToya`s refusal to see it?
CARR: Well, there is still the unresolved issue of how Michael died. There are those who think in the family it was not just an accidental homicide. That it was planned and premeditated. This is what many of the family members think. Of course you have some...
FRIEDMAN: Who would have planned it, Firpo?
CARR: Excuse me, if I could just finish.
BEHAR: Yes.
CARR: You have some family members who feel, that oh, no, it was accidental. But there are some suspicions around that we have yet to -- unresolved questions that we have yet to have some answers to.
So my own thoughts are that, yes, we have some problems here. There are some questions that I would like to have answered. And in the meantime, we feel like, hey, we will boycott it. And we won`t watch.
BEHAR: Well, Joe Jackson, the father...
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: He is saying that the film uses body doubles and he doesn`t like that. Producers are reportedly denying that.
FRIEDMAN: Right.
BEHAR: Do you think he`s trying to delegitimize the film so that he can make money out of it? Because he`s not making any money, because it`s going to be making, they say...
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: ... an estimated $400 million in sales, between the movie and CD. That`s a lot of money.
FRIEDMAN: Joe Jackson has exploited his son`s death right along. Tomorrow night he`s charging $3,000 a ticket to show the movie in Las Vegas to Michael Jackson fans and come meet Joe Jackson. He altered the trailer for the movie and put it up as an invitation to this thing. So now the trailer says "Hi, I`m Joe Jackson. Come see my son`s movie."
So the problem is the family was cut out of the will completely except for the mother and kids. So the rest of the family is at war among themselves because they don`t know what to do. They don`t know how they can make money out of this fast enough before the whole thing dies down.
BEHAR: Yes.
FRIEDMAN: They`re the great exploiters. All of them.
BEHAR: Right, wait a second. Wait a second, hold on, Firpo.
Bryan, reports are that the children do want to see the movie. What do you think about that? Is it a good idea?
BRYAN MONROE, CONDUCTED LAST INTERVIEW WITH JACKSON: Yes. I think if the kids want to see the movie they shouldn`t be stopped from seeing it. Look, when I sat down with Michael close to two years ago, he had his son, Blanket, with him. And that was a genuine father/son relationship. And I think that was one of the strings that Michael had in his last months and last days.
And I don`t think anyone should stop those kids from seeing that movie if they want to.
BEHAR: How much of the...
MONROE: It will be an image of Michael that will be positive.
BEHAR: But how much of the film profits will go to the children?
CARR: Oh I could tell you...
MONROE: Depending on which numbers you...
BEHAR: Go ahead, go ahead.
MONROE: ... you believe as much as 70 percent to 80 percent.
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s right?
FRIEDMAN: Oh yes. Most of it is going to the kids. Most of it goes to the estate...
CARR: Most of it but that`s a lot of money.
FRIEDMAN: And most of the estate goes to the kids.
BEHAR: That is a lot of money.
CARR: I mean, I would -- I`m sure there are a lot of people who will be happy to take 30 percent of that. Because 30 percent of what -- $400 million is still a lot of money.
BEHAR: That`s a lot of money.
CARR: So it`s -- absolutely. So the fact 70 percent or 80 percent may go to the children...
FRIEDMAN: Right.
CARR: ... is really a secondary thing. I mean, yes, they deserve it. It`s their father.
BEHAR: Why is it a secondary thing? What do you mean it`s a secondary thing?
CARR: Well, because, well, here`s what I mean by that very specifically. You have individuals who are going to recoup a lot more than they put into it. That`s what the family is saying.
BEHAR: Like whom? Like who?
MONROE: Yes, like whom?
CARR: Like whom, AEG and some of the others, Sony. You have these individuals -- Michael, quite frankly, from what I understand from where I sit was displeased with on certain levels.
So you have these individuals who are getting a lot of money and the family is saying wait a minute, wait a minute, he didn`t even like you guys.
MONROE: But I`ve got to tell you...
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: But aren`t they -- weren`t they do promotions?
MONROE: Look, this isn`t about liking or not liking.
BEHAR: Yes.
MONROE: This isn`t about liking or not liking. He`s going to...
CARR: No, no what I`m saying is that...
MONROE: Look, he`s going to...
BEHAR: One at a time. Guys, guys, guys. I have to control the...
MONROE: Let me finish here...
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
MONROE: There`s going to be a lot of money to be made out of this film, out of the music. The 100 or so...
BEHAR: Right.
MONROE: ... singles that have yet to be released. And it might as well go to those kids and it might as well go to his mother and family.
CARR: Agreed, agreed.
BEHAR: Well, it`s not a question of might as well, actually, because it was left to them.
FRIEDMAN: It was left to them.
BEHAR: So that`s it.
CARR: You`re right.
BEHAR: And so don`t you think that the family is a little ticked off that they`re not getting any of the money?
CARR: Sure...
BEHAR: And maybe that`s why they don`t want to see the movie. Isn`t that possible Firpo?
CARR: Yes, it`s possible but knowing the family as I do, that is not how they feel about it.
FRIEDMAN: Why? They`ve lived off of Michael Jackson for years.
CARR: Our brother -- if I can just finish -- our brother has been exploited.
FRIEDMAN: Our brother?
CARR: He`s been exploited when this whole thing happened. And yes, his siblings would say our brother, that`s right.
Our brother has been exploited. I`m not saying I am, we know that already, Roger. Please, let`s be reasonable here.
Not only that, the parents are saying our son is being exploited. Yes, the other relatives are saying our cousin or uncle is being exploited.
FRIEDMAN: But how`s he being exploited if all the money is going to his kids?
BEHAR: Yes and he`s not around anymore so how is he being exploited?
FRIENDMAN: How is he being exploited?
CARR: He was -- well, here`s what they`re saying. He was being exploited when he was practicing...
BEHAR: Alive.
CARR: When they were pushing him. He was being exploited when they said, reportedly, someone said, hey, listen, Michael can`t do this. He himself I heard a tape where he, himself, said, hey, I just can`t do that many.
BEHAR: Ok, but that still doesn`t...
CARR: ... well, guess what was said was, is that hey, listen, throw some chicken at him and fatten him up. I`ll carry him on stage if I have to, is reportedly is what one person said.
BEHAR: So are you saying...
FRIEDMAN: Who said that?
BEHAR: Hey, a minute Firpo...
CARR: On tape some very...
FRIEDMAN: No one said that.
CARR: Yes, I`m sorry go ahead.
BEHAR: Are you saying that the children should get the 70 percent and the rest should go to the rest of the Jackson family? Is that what you`re implying?
CARR: No, not at all, not at all, not at all.
BEHAR: Well then, who should get the other 30 percent?
CARR: I`m not being a -- what I`m saying is that some of that -- some of that -- what they`re concerned is not so much about the money, irrespective of what Roger Friedman says. It is about our brother. He is dead.
See I think this whole -- that`s out of the entire equation.
BEHAR: Ok, so let me get this straight. They`re upset because...
CARR: Well, hold on, hold on.
BEHAR: Wait a second. He was exploited during the filming of this thing. They don`t like that.
CARR: Right.
BEHAR: And so they do not want the money to go to the children? I don`t get it.
CARR: No, they don`t want the money to go to the individuals who reportedly exploited them...
(CROSS TALK)
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know this guy is just going to keep talking and talking.
CARR: ... the persons who have reportedly exploited him.
BEHAR: Let Bryan talk for a second, please, Firpo.
CARR: Yes, sure.
BEHAR: Thank you. Go ahead.
MONROE: Look, this is the kind of bickering that created a lot of tension in the family up until this point. I think at the end of the day, let his children, let his fans enjoy Michael for the artist that he was in his last film.
FRIEDMAN: Exactly.
MONROE: Was it cut? Was it edited? I`m sure it was. Much of his stuff was.
But this will be an image of Michael Jackson in a way many of us remember him. And at the end of the day let the image of Michael live on through this movie.
BEHAR: Ok, some of his fans and others apparently, Firpo, and other people...
CARR: Yes.
BEHAR: ... are saying that the promoters covered up his poor health...
CARR: Thank you.
BEHAR: ... when it was ruled that he was healthy when he died. The autopsy showed...
FRIEDMAN: He was healthy; the autopsy showed that he was healthy.
BEHAR: ... that everything was fine except his nose was missing which I still find odd.
FRIEDMAN: Right.
CARR: Well, I`ll tell you something...
FRIEDMAN: Well, there are a lot of extra noses that they had.
BEHAR: What was up with that?
CARR: You definitely hear something. If ever the same was true, don`t believe everything you read... --
FRIEDMAN: Well, he had his nose to the grindstone.
CARR: When you speak -- you see, that`s disrespectful. Have some respect for the dead, please.
BEHAR: So if these people are saying, Firpo, if these people are saying he was just overworked and not healthy when he was making the thing, then I guess that we can eliminate murder as the reason he`s dead, right?
(CROSS TALK)
CARR: No. No, no, no. You can be overworked -- I think she said Firpo, hold on just for a second.
MONROE: Go ahead.
CARR: You can have someone who is overworked and then someone who`s murdered after that. They`re not mutually exclusive as a statement.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What do you think? Natural causes or murder? What do you guys think?
MONROE: I think there are a lot of people that will have issues on their hand about did they have anything to do with Michael`s death? From the doctor to the music company and the promotion company. At the end of the day Michael was responsible for his actions, but also was a victim of those around him who wanted to take advantage of him.
BEHAR: Thank you. You have the last word, Roger because we`re running out of time.
ROGER: No one wanted Michael Jackson dead, first of all. There`s no conspiracy to kill him, no conspiracy to wear him down so people can grab control of his fortune. This is all nonsense.
BEHAR: The coroner has ruled his death a homicide. Dr. Conrad Murray may be charged with manslaughter.
ROGER: His death is a homicide.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Dr. Murray is not going to get any money out of Michael`s estate because he killed him. He killed him probably accidentally, probably from giving him the Propofol. That`s it. That`s it. The companies had nothing to do with it.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, guys.
Up next, are you good without God? Come on back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: New subway ads in New York City have renewed the debate in America about religion and God. I thought this would be a perfect time to bring in the stars of "Collision" a new documentary on religion and atheism.
Christopher Hitchens, self-proclaimed anti-theist and author of "God is Not Great." and Pastor Douglas Wilson, Evangelical and author. Welcome to the show.
I saw the movie and I really enjoy the movie very much. It`s very, very interesting. I don`t want you two to just rehash the debates. Ok?
Because I want you to make me understand where you`re at and people who are watching the show. Because, you know -- ok. Let`s start with you. Can you give just me in a nutshell, Pastor, a case for God?
PASTOR DOUGLAS WILSON, EVANGELICAL AND AUTHOR: Ok.
BEHAR: That God exists.
WILSON: One of the things I would want to do is ask about where your starting point is. Who has the burden of proof? So does a Ford automobile have the burden of proof of demonstrating that there was a Henry Ford or that there wasn`t? Who has the burden of proof?
A lot of this debate is actually scrambling for the high ground of who has to do the proving. Who has to do the maintaining? Who carries the burden of proof? Now, for...
BEHAR: Who do you think carries the burden?
WILSON: I believe the one who denies the self-evident fact that God exists and created the world, I think that that is the person who has the burden of proof.
BEHAR: You say it`s self-evident?
WILSON: Yes. Self evident to those...
BEHAR: To those who believe?
WILSON: Those who believe. Those who don`t believe -- you know, if you watch this movie "Collision," it`s like watching diving competitions in the Olympics. The Romanian judge comes up with a completely different score. You know, two points, ten points. So this is the sort of debate where atheists go to it and think Christopher carried the day. Believers go to the debate and they think the Christians...
BEHAR: Right. You say there might not be a solution to this, Christopher.
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, VANITY FAIR: I think there is one. I can`t avail myself of the almost beautiful circularity of Pastor Wilson`s argument. I wouldn`t want to show any burden of proof. It does seem to me that if someone says if I don`t agree with them, I might be condemned to eternal punishment.
Snakes talk, virgins bear children and dead men walk; that extraordinarily claims (INAUDIBLE) evidence. What atheists say is not that there is no God, we couldn`t possibly prove that. We say there`s never been any evidence; there`s never been a convincing philosophical argument that there is such an entity. And in fact we say there is no supernatural dimension.
The natural world is much more wonderful.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: But you don`t -- pastor, you don`t really believe that snakes talk and that Noah had all those animals on the boat, do you?
WILSON: I believe the Bible. I`m a Christian. So I believe that Bible.
BEHAR: It sounds like you`re too intelligent to really believe that literally. I understand your faith. But that animals -- all those animals were on the boat? Come on.
WILSON: Come on, we`re -- we`re animals and we talk.
HITCHENS: That`s a fact. We`re primates.
WILSON: And we talk.
BEHAR: Yes.
HITCHENS: By the way, that`s the way Presbyterianism used to be they used to say we weren`t primates. Now everyone agrees we are.
One agrees we evolved, another one agrees the cosmos is created by an explosion, probably without us in mind.
We`re very likely not the object for divine design. It might be more modest to think that we aren`t.
BEHAR: All right.
WILSON: One of the things I would want to maintain is that Christians aren`t going to make any headway by trying to split the difference between faith and unbelief. If you have unbelief and faith and you split the difference, you just get a muddled form of faith or muddled form of unbelief.
I`m not interested in trying to dilute the Bible to make it acceptable to people.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILSON: So if I`m a Christian, then I do what Jesus says, believe what he taught and that sort of thing. That`s what a Christian should do.
BEHAR: What about this idea of Jesus, Christopher? You don`t buy it at all I take it?
HITCHENS: I don`t think he was the son of God.
BEHAR: You don`t?
HITCHENS: I don`t think his mother was -- I don`t think his mother was a virgin and I don`t think he died and was resurrected or revived or resuscitated.
BEHAR: None of that.
HITCHENS: None of that. Even if he was, by the way, any of those things, he would only have that in common virginal birth, miraculous circumstances, mysterious death with many, many other mythological figures. It wouldn`t prove even if it could be prove -- it wouldn`t prove his doctrines were true or moral or ethical, which I don`t think they are.
BEHAR: Does it surprise you to know that Einstein probably believed in God? That`s pretty surprising.
HITCHENS: I absolutely know the contrary is true.
(CROSS TALK)
HITCHENS: And it sounded very, very clearly, he was a pantheist or possibly a deist. He did not believe in a personal God, a God of religion. He didn`t believe in a God who could intervene in human affairs, would answer prayers, would take side in a war.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s an interesting point.
HITCHENS: Would care what you ate or who he had sex with.
BEHAR: There`s a certain self-absorption in the idea that sky God is watching me, particularly, do my show right now. There`s something strange about that. Do you believe that? Do you think he`s watching you specifically right now?
WILSON: Jesus said God numbers the hairs on our head. It`s not just...
BEHAR: So does Google.
WILSON: Yes. Is there self-absorption in that?
BEHAR: Yes.
WILSON: Here`s the fundamental issue. Of course you can believe in an omniscient God and believe in it in a way that flatters yourself. There have been all kinds of believers who take the doctrine that God knows all things and has the hairs of your head numbered and do it in a self- flattering way, self-absorbed way. Yes, that does happen.
But it`s also something that can humble you if you think about it correctly. It makes you -- it helps put everything in perspective.
HITCHENS: It makes you too humble. It makes you into a servant which is to say I`m just a plaything of God`s will.
BEHAR: Hang on a second. We`re going to come back. I want to hear more about this and more about the Ten Commandments and whether we really need the Ten Commandments to be good people.
Hang on tight. When we come back we`ll do more of this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HITCHENS: Are we created -- created diseased? According to (INAUDIBLE) it`s against freedom, it`s against inquiry, it`s against science.
This is a wicked cult and it`s high time you left it behind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Christopher Hitchens making his blistering case for atheism in "Collision" a documentary pitting Hitchens against Pastor Douglas Wilson. I`m back with the star debaters.
Let`s talk about the Ten Commandments, for example. Do we really need the Ten Commandments to be good people? I know not to murder somebody. I didn`t need to be raised the Catholic, even though I was, to know that.
WILSON: Right. Part of the problem we come up against is that we have been inculcated in the Ten Commandments. The tenets of the Ten Commandments for many centuries then we kicked the ladder away. Me climbed up this high, kicked the ladder away and say look how high we are.
I don`t think it is self-evident that you shouldn`t murder or commit adultery or...
BEHAR: What did people do before the Ten Commandments? They didn`t murder or kill everyone, otherwise we wouldn`t be here.
WILSON: Look at the crime rates. If sin disappeared overnight, if somebody waved a magic wand and sin disappeared, our economy would collapse. We are...
BEHAR: What do you say to that? Chris?
HITCHENS: That doesn`t need me to say anything. I have some tougher stuff to say.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
HITCHENS: Well, first the story isn`t true. The wandering in the desert, the exile -- that`s the Jewish version of the Christian mythology, it`s worse than talking snakes.
The Annalex of Confucius written long before say to people what the Golden Rule is -- don`t do to others what you wouldn`t want done to yourself. The first three or four commandments are all saying, "you must fear someone you love," heavenly dictation -- they`re not moral all.
Then the (INAUDIBLE) are self-evident. Don`t kill -- don`t murder, don`t steal, and don`t commit perjury. And then the others are putting women on the level of beasts and saying they`re among the chattels of your neighbor, you mustn`t covet. It`s a bronze age tribal agricultural...
(CROSS TALK)
WILSON: Let`s go at this from another angle. Take the code of Hammurabi and the Annalex of Confucius and the...
BEHAR: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
WILSON: Eye for eye, tooth for tooth is Lex Talionis was given because it used to be for that a life for an eye, a life for a tooth. Strict justice was imposed to keep these things from escalating out of control.
The reason you have all these codes enforced by armies and police departments and that sort of thing is because people don`t obey them naturally and spontaneously.
BEHAR: What do you say to that Chris?
HITCHENS: It puts up with the (INAUDIBLE). There`s no commandment against genocide, no commandment against slavery -- very common at the time. And no commandment saying parents should respect -- be nice to their children. Why is this?
Because in the next chapter, the so-called children of this terrifying God who exacts compulsory are going to be ordered to commit genocide against the Malachites and the Medianites and the Moabites; they`re going to be ordered to enslave them and they`re going to be ordered to kill all their children in the name of God.
BEHAR: That`s not very nice. That`s not very Christian.
HITCHENS: This is completely relativistic.
BEHAR: By the way, I read somewhere, I saw -- it`s a wonderful film, by the way, which I`ll keep pushing for you.
WILSON: Good for you.
BEHAR: That you were spanked. That`s not very nice to spank a child. Why do you think that`s a Christian thing to do?
WILSON: I was the kind of child that needed it.
BEHAR: All kids say that and they didn`t -- it`s so wrong to spank a child. It`s so not Christian.
WILSON: You can get to like it.
BEHAR: I know. There`s a lot of repercussions.
Christopher, Pastor Wilson, thanks. "Collision" premieres in New York on Wednesday and in L.A. Thursday. The DVD is available exclusively at amazon.com.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Mayumi Heene, mother of the so-called balloon boy, has apparently confessed she and her husband, Richard Heene, planned the whole my kid`s in the sky and we can`t get him down scheme that captured the attention of the entire country almost two weeks ago. Joining me are clinical psychologist, Jeff Gardere. Criminal defense attorney David Schwartz. Former prosecutor, Lisa Pinto. Hi, Lisa. She`s out there somewhere. Okay. Now, David, let`s start you. It`s been 11 days. It seems they have a confession from the mother. Why are we still waiting for charges to be filed?
DAVID SCHWARTZ, CRIMINATL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So it seems like we have a confession. You know, the mother did not confess early on in the case. We don`t know exactly what she said. These confessions a lot of times are coerced. There`s tremendous peer pressure to make the confession. There`s tremendous societal pressure to make some sort of statement. We don`t know what she said.
BEHAR: So what`s the point of a confession then.
SCHWARTZ: Well it`s not so easy. It`s a real gray area here because we don`t know what she confessed to. Maybe she confessed to certain aspects. Unless we see the entire statement, of course, it`s the police that write down the statement, not the person that`s making the statement.
LISA PINTO, FORMER PRSECUTOR: All right time to take the kids away.
BEHAR: Lisa, Lisa, why weren`t they filed as soon as Mayumi confessed? Lisa?
PINTO: I think the one federal charge is that they lied to the -- he lied to the FAA. I think the feds are trying to take their time to make sure they have a recording of the call. The local charges, they need to get the kids` full statements, not clear that we have those. But the issue here, Joy, is, let`s take the kids away. It`s enough already. He`s got them lying to the authorities, hiding them in attics, much less saying he`s floating them in balloons. The police have been to this house over domestic violence. He`s got a prior for vandalism. Not a safe place.
BEHAR: You know something? It`s just been -- today`s news said that Roman Polanski, who`s charged with raping a 13-year-old girl several years ago, if he comes back to the united states he`s only going to get two years ago. They`re going to take the kids away and put these people in jail that doesn`t seem equal to me, for some reason. What about - what do you think, Jeff?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well I don`t think it is equal. Look we know that it`s a very dysfunctional family, and the kids certainly there should be some consideration given to an investigation by child welfare officials. We can`t just say, Lisa, just go ahead and take the kids. We don`t know what`s really going on. What we do know is Richard Heene, Mayumi Heene, they are not model parents. They`ve told those kids to lie. And when you put together everything else, the charges of domestic violence, the past, and certainly seems that Richard has some sort of a very flash kind of anger, some real impulse control issues --
BEHAR: Yes I saw him on "Wife Swap." he has anger issues for sure. So does she, by the way.
GARDERE: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Lisa, why do you want to take the kids away so quickly? Isn`t that jumping the gun a little bit?
PINTO: I think these kids are in danger. This family -- the parents will do anything to promote themselves on television. They met in acting school. I feel like the kids are ancillary to their egos and ambitions. I`m not saying take the kids away forever Joy. But at least put them with a safe relative while they have a chance to talk about what was really happening.
Wait
GARDERE: Lisa, I know you`re looking out for the welfare of the kids, but then what might be the psychological damage to the kids if you`re putting them with foster parents and then they have to shift back to these parents? Look maybe they are criminals in what they did. What they did was criminal. But they haven`t killed anybody.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: Let me put a legal spin on this. Let me say one thing. In this country, we don`t just take kids away. We don`t just grab -- wait a second. We just don`t grab kids from their parents and just take them away like Lisa Pinto. There needs to be a full process. There needs to be a hearing involved here, Lisa.
PINTO: David, I`m not talking --
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: Behind what you`re saying --
SHWARTZ: I don`t.
BEHAR: Go ahead, Lisa. What were you going to say?
PINTO: I just -- everybody is accusing me of putting them with Gustofo foster parents. I just want a psychologist like dr. Gardere to talk to them in an unforced atmosphere where we can really learn what living with these two coops was like and where they can be with relatives that care about them and love them and nurture them and will put their after-school sports before the balloon episode.
BEHAR: All right well that`s her opinion and she`s entitle entitled. Do you think one of them would face harsher charges if it was discovered one of them came up with the idea of the hoax and the other went along?
GARDERE: Well that`s a legal question you guys will jump on. But I have to tell you this, I really do believe Joy that there are real issues with Richard Heene. I believe he`s leading all of this. I believe, and it`s just my opinion, this may have been his idea. And I think the rest of the family are really scared of this guy. I think this guy with his flash anger, you know, he`s someone who might be a little bipolar, manic if you ask me, I think they fear him.
SCHWARTZ: To answer your question, though, if you`re 1% involve with this hoax, you`re as guilty for the entire act. That`s what the law says.
GARDERE: Legally, psychologically if she`s a battered woman emotionally and following his lead, well she shouldn`t be doing as much time as he would.
BEHAR: All right.
PINTO: Guys --
BEHAR: Lisa, Lisa hang on. I want to switch gears.
A second lawsuit has been brought against self-help guru James Arthur Ray. Listen to this. You might know about this story. For running a sweat lodge in Sedona, Arizona, that turned deadly. In total, 21 people got sick during a two-hour so-called cleansing ceremony where temperatures reached 120 degrees and 3 people have died. Now the people were not restrained, mind you. He just discouraged them from leaving the sweatbox. So how culpable is he, actually?
SCHWARTZ: Well, first of all, from a civil standpoint, there are going to be civil lawsuits. From a criminal standpoint, like you said, he didn`t physically restrain these people. People have to take ownership for their own actions. You know, people have to have common sense. You can`t stay in a 120-degree lodge if your body can`t take it. Obviously some people could take it. Some people can`t.
PINTO: I bet a $9,000 spa vacation for you in Arizona where you get locked in a 400-square foot tent and a guy beats down on you. When you try to help other people--
SCHWARTZ: Were you there?
PINTO: You say these people need help, no but, I`ve read the reports, first-hand reports.
SCHWARTZ: Well don`t read so many reports -
PINTO: He wouldn`t let people leave. All right David let me make it up. That`s what defense attorneys do.
SCHWARTZ: No, no -- that`s why we have testimony.
BEHAR: OK, OK, one at a time.
GARDERE: Here`s the deal. He didn`t restrain anyone physically. We know that. However, we`re talking about people who had emotional issues. These were people who were, perhaps, bored with life. Certainly they weren`t broke. Not at $9,000 nuggets. BEHAR: Not when you put the $9,000 -- to be tortured and really abused by this guy?
GARDERE: Right so they can go to the next level in life, so they can find meaning in their lives and so on. But we`re talking about people who might be emotionally weak at this point. And therefore, when he makes the suggestion as a demigod, sweat it out, you can make it, be tough, be strong, because they are emotionally at risk, they will go with it. It is the perfect storm.
BEHAR: Right so but nobody`s there to protect these people from their own stupidity?
GARDERE: Well there was a nurse who was there and the nurse, even though the nurse deals with the physical, should have been dealing with the psychological, too, and saying wait a minute. These people are not stable and now they`re getting delusional from the heat.
BEHAR: Go ahead Lisa.
PINTO: He should be charged with at least manslaughter from the reckless conduct that caused the death of two people. He told -- when people wanted to help other people outside of the tent, people who were unable to move, he said, you can`t move them, I`ll get to that later. If that isn`t reckless conduct, I don`t know what is. The sheriffs` office has not yet interviewed him which I find alarming. Get him with his attorney and talk to him. Find out what his theory was about keeping 60 people in the tent in 160 degrees--
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait -- get him in and talk to him? There are constitutional rights in this country. He would be the target of that investigation. You can`t just get him in and talk to him.
GARDERE: Come on David let`s be real here -
PINTO: You can ask his attorney.
GARDERE: This was a guy who went into hiding. He`s supposed to be the leader. The spiritual leader. But yet he goes into hiding and puts out a statement and says, I know this doesn`t look too good and I should be leading everyone else and I`m not leading by example. But this is what I need to do.
SCHWARTZ: The facts need to be analyzed.
GARDERE: A demigod --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Here`s an interesting point about the thing, when they`re in the sweat lodge. They`re screaming for water, vomiting and passing out. Sounds like my honeymoon. Why didn`t they help each other?
Because --
BEHAR: Why didn`t they help each other?
PINTO: They tried.
SCHWARTZ: They weren`t exhibiting any common sense. If someone`s not helping --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They could have walked out.
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: Joy, there was also a group contagion going on as far as thinking. You know they`re saying if, exactly, exactly
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: If drank the Kool-Aid and they`re saying to one another we have to follow each other`s group. There`s no conscience within the group at that point. So they`re just doing what the voice is telling them to.
PINTO: Some of them were passed out. Some of them were actually passed out.
GARDERE: Lisa, we don`t disagree. This was dangerous and people didn`t learn from Jim Jones by hooking up this guy, James Arthur Ray, another pathological individual.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Another thing the guy, James Arthur Ray, I don`t trust anybody with three names.
GARDERE: With three names, I agree with you.
BEHAR: Lee Harvey Oswald, hello. James Earl what`s his face?
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: James Earl Ray. Maybe part of the same family.
SCHWARTZ: We have to analyze the facts.
BEHAR: Mary Tyler Moore. It just goes on and on. Oh, god. Thank you very much you guys.
Thank you.
BEHAR: All right coming up, Sam Wurzelbacher, you may know him better as Joe the Plumber.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
I`m getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000, $270,000, $280,000 a year. Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn`t it?
Well here`s what`s going to happen -- if you`re a small business which, first of all, you get a 50% tax credit. So you get a cut on taxes for your health care -- you actually get a tax cut on that front.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Okay, everyone remembers that moment from the campaign trail when a new media star was born. He was adopted as an unofficial mascot for the GOP. But since then he`s gone, pardon the expression, rogue. With me now, the man, himself, Samuel Wurzelbacher, aka, Joe the plumber. Hi Joe.
SAMUEL WURZELBACHER: Hi. How are you?
BEHAR: Or Sam. What should I call you?
WURZELBACHER: My name is Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher. I go by my middle name.
BEHAR: Yes, but you`re not a plumber, are you? That whole thing is just talk, I mean it was weird wasn`t it?
WURZELBACHER: Well I really am a plumber. Just not licensed in the State of Ohio. They have that part to correct as far as mainstream - but no, I used to actually teach in the military. I plumed all over from Alaska and Arizona - in Okinawa
BEHAR: You plumbed. Is that what they say, you plumbed? I love it. You know, these T.E.A parties that were going. T-e-a stands for taxed enough already.
WURZELBACHER: Yes it`s gone way beyond that.
BEHAR: Yes but back in April when you guys were T.E.A partying in Fond du Lac, in Wisconsin, right, you were actually protesting George Bush`s tax laws. Not Obama`s. Did you even know that?
WURZELBACHER: Well, actually, they bring a lot of different speakers on. I`m there to talk about common sense and a good, strong work ethic that is all about being American, Democrat or Republican. So I can`t sit there and talk about Fond du Lac. I was actually in land sing. I was actually down in Atlanta with Sean Kennedy.
BEHAR: OK, I realize you can`t speak for every T.E.A party. But that particular T.E.A party. It struck me because it sounded silly to me because they were mad at Obama but it was really about Bush.
WURZELBACHER: Well that`s the point. The T.E.A party movement isn`t against Obama. It`s against government and how they overstepped their boundaries.
BEHAR: Yea but Bush was the one who really spent us into oblivion which is why you`re in this position.
WURZELBACHER: Oh you`re not going to get an argument from me. It`s not just because we`re in this position. I mean Freddy Mac or Freddie May or Fanny Mac call those guys I mean there`s a lot of reasons why we`re in this position. And it all has to do with the "R" and the "D." They`re not truly representing the American people.
BEHAR: The R and the D, Republicans and Democrats. OK. Now you`re not rich, yourself. I mean according to what I read you made $40,000 in 2006. Maybe you`re making for money now since you`re a media star.
WURZELBACHER: No. Actually I have -- I believe in capitalism but believe in with a moral compass. There`s a lot of things I turned down because it`s not something I could sit there and do and look at myself in the mirror or teach my son the right ways of growing up. So I`m by far not rich. I`m famous or notorious, if you will, but not rich.
BEHAR: And yet in that clip and other things I`ve seen, you basically were arguing that people who make over $250,000 a year should not get taxed more than they are already. And Obama`s really saying 36% to 39%. That`s almost a 3% jump.
WURZELBACHER: Well it doesn`t matter if it`s 3% or a half a percent. The bottom line is -
BEHAR: Why are you worried about people making so much money? What`s it to you? You`re like a reverse Robin Hood.
WURZELBACHER: No it`s right and wrong is what it comes down to. What gives the government the right to decide that you make too much money? I mean, sooner or later they`re going to say $175,000 is too much, $150,000. Once you put a number to what rich is, and rich is relative. I mean usually, you know, somebody that makes more than I am is rich as far as --
BEHAR: Well in New York City, $250,000 is nothing here. I mean --
WURZELBACHER: Exactly. Same as in Los Angeles. So I mean, then your small businesses really get the boot to it because, I mean, so they`re netting $250,000, but you`re not talking about all the different taxes that they have to pay, all the different insurances, workman`s comp. There`s so much of those --
BEHAR: You`re talking about a moral compass. Did it bother you during the Bush administration he gave tax breaks to the rich? Did that bother you?
WURZELBACHER: It bothers me they`re working for themselves. And I`m not answering your question yes, it does bother me. But that`s why I`m a big proponent for the fair tax. Fair tax would actually level the playing ground. The elitist, the politician, both the Republicans and the Democrats want nothing to do with it because I mean, the IRS, it`s a very, what`s the word I`m looking for? Lot of money gets spent with them. A lot of lobbyists out there --
BEHAR: But you have to have taxes to keep the roads going, to pay for the police department, the fire department. It`s kind of a moral obligation of Americans to pay for those services. Don`t you agree?
WURZELBACHER: Absolutely. Some people say taxes are a necessary evil. They`re not evil I mean. You have to have taxes.
BEHAR: Right but why shouldn`t rich, rich people pay those taxes? They make more money. They benefit from the society?
WURZELBACHER: Well that`s why we need to talk about the fair tax and get that out there. A lot of people like it. It would level the playing ground. It would create millions of jobs. It would stimulate the economy without the government robbing Peter, Paul, and Mary.
BEHAR: OK, also I`ve seen you in other interviews where you talk about, a little bit about socialism. That you`re fearful of socialism. I also read that your family was on welfare a couple times. That`s kind of socialistic, welfare, isn`t it?
WURZELBACHER: I believe in social programs. There`s - I`m not a monster, I mean everyone wants to paint me with the GOP. To be honest with you, I`m pretty much an enemy against the GOP, if you will. I`m a registered Republican. I registered just shortly after Reagan, I became 18 --
BEHAR: Why? Why do you vote Republican if you don`t like what they say?
WURZELBACHER: I was registered as a Republican. I vote across party lines. I vote for what`s the best interest of America and not necessarily the best interest of my party. The Republican party definitely lost their way.
BEHAR: They have lost their way for sure and many years now. But so you`re not against Medicaid, Medicare, social security, none of that?
WURZELBACHER: Well the fraud, waste and abuse going on in Medicare, Medicaid is just absolutely ridiculous.
BEHAR: There`s always waste in every program.
WURZELBACHER: Well sure, but I mean it`s just the bureaucracy our government has become. They`ve become too big and too unwieldy. I mean we really need to pull things back and get back to the fundamentals of our constitution. If we get away from that - then we`re screwed.
BEHAR: Well tell that to Dick Cheney. Now in an interview you were asked about gay people. This bothered me. So far I like you but this annoyed me. You said I personally still think it`s wrong. Homosexuality. People don`t understand the dictionary, it`s called queer means strange and unusual. It`s not like a slur, like you would call a white person a honky or something like that. And you also said you wouldn`t want your children near a homosexuals. Now you are equating pedophiles with homosexuals and it turns out that 70% of pedophiles are heterosexuals.
WURZELBACHER: I`m sorry how do you define that? I mean if a guy --
BEHAR: How do you define what?
WURZELBACHER: Well you`re talking about them being -- hold on. Let`s back up one second. When I was talking in the interview, I was making a point as my opinion should not necessarily be public policy, just like every politician out there thinks their opinion needs to be public policy. That was the whole interview. They were asking me questions abstract as far as this goes. When it comes down to homosexuality, how can you sit there and say they`re straight? I mean their sitting there playing, you know a guy sitting there playing with a 7-year-old boy, how is he straight?
BEHAR: That is a pedophile if he`s abusing the child -
WURZELBACHER: With the same sex?
BEHAR: Straight - no but that`s not the point.
WURZELBACHER: Well that is the point to me.
BEHAR: well that`s a pedophile if he`s abusing a child. Not because he`s gay or straight. There are pedophiles, this is a fact, pedophiles will go for either girl or boy, whoever`s available, because it`s power over children. It`s not about sex. It`s like rape, Joe. It`s like rape. It`s about power.
WURZELBACHER: I understand that.
BEHAR: It`s not about homosexuality. Homosexuality happens to be an orientation that some people have, I don`t think it`s a choice, do you?
WURZELBACHER: Actually yes, I do believe it`s a choice.
BEHAR: Why would you choose that when people like you vilify them?
WURZELBACHER: I haven`t vilify anyone.
BEHAR: Well if you equate homosexual as pedophile you`re vilifying them -
WURZELBACHER: If you follow that up on the rest of the interview, I have had friends that are homosexual, two of them have died from aids. I`m not against it but it`s not my lifestyle. Me being an American, I`m allowed to have that opinion and not be chastised for it. I serve my country.
BEHAR: Listen Samuel, you can have your opinion and you`re going to get chastised for it just like I have my opinion and I get chastised for it.
Stay right there, we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) Joe`s with us today. Where is Joe. Is Joe here with us today? Joe, I thought you were here today. All right. Well, you`re all Joe the plumbers, so all of you stand up and say -- I thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with Joe the plumber. And he`s here right now. Where were you anyway when he was -- where is Joe the plumber? Where is he?
WURZELBACHER: I was actually in a restaurant, Schmukers, eating pancakes.
BEHAR: In Schmuckers? Yeah. Okay.
WURZELBACHER: It`s a nice little mom and pop stop. Great pancakes.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, you also did standup, I understand. Let`s look at your -- a little bit of your routine.
WURZELBACHER: I did it for charity.
BEHAR: Whatever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WURZELBACHER: I really love getting myself foot baths. I pour three of those battles with a pound of saffron in there. But at the same time I let my concubines work me, you know, deep-tissue massage. Oh god, I miss it so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. That was at the funniest celebrity in Washington contest. You`re not a celebrity. You`re not, you know, a Washingtonian. Do you think you`re funny?
WURZELBACHER: No. No, actually -- a good friend of mine wrote that for me. The best part of that was I was claiming to be the half brother of Karl Rove. My name was Francis w. Rove. My girlfriend missed my girlfriend, Mary Van Glads worth with golden locks. You know, just playing on the role of Joe the plumber and being a rich Republican, you know, dim wit if you will. Ultimately it was stand up for kids, a charity.
BEHAR: Oh we`d all make a fool for our children.
WURZELBACHER: Hey my 15 minutes of fame and use it for good, I`ll definitely do it.
BEHAR: Do you identify with the balloon boy`s father at this point because he`s getting his 15 minutes of fame too.
WURZELBACHER: No I don`t identify it. It`s not something I search for.
BEHAR: No you don`t search for it? Come on, come on Joe. I`m calling you Joe but your name is Sam. It`s driving me crazy.
WURZELBACHER: It`s Samuel Joseph. For the first --
BEHAR: All right my name`s Josephine Victoria. You`re calling me Joy. See how life is?
WURZELBACHER: Exactly. For the first 15 years of my life I thought my name was Joey Go Get Me That. But no actually --
BEHAR: That`s a good joke.
WURZELBACHER: That`s the truth. That`s the truth, no, I came on your show because I want to talk about T.E.A parties and let people know that it`s an, not a GOP movement, it`s not extra turf, it`s the real deal.
BEHAR: But I read that those things were set up a lot by these kind of, like, operatives of the Republican Party.
WURZELBACHER: Absolutely.
BEHAR: So what good is that? That`s not coming from the grassroots when it`s all organized by all these people with an agenda.
WURZELBACHER: Well if you think about it, though, I mean a lot of the stuff on the left done also organized. I`ve been through quite a few rallies where the opposition showed up because union members have been paid to show up to organize and dispute what`s being said there. Now some -- a lot of the GOP are going to catch on and try to use the T.E.A party movement for their benefit. And that`s where Americans need to stand firm, let them know first of all, we`re not for the GOP, secondly we`re for America, third we`re not going to take anymore that`s Republicans and Democrats.
BEHAR: OK is there anything the T.E.A partyers like about President Obama?
WURZELBACHER: Well it`s not about President Obama.
BEHAR: What he`s doing, about what he`s doing now.
WURZELBACHER: Well see that`s what it is though. It`s not about President Obama. It`s about Congress. It`s a simple fact Republicans and Democrats play a lot of he said/she said and do no real work. They`re on TV actually more than you are.
BEHAR: That`s impossible.
WURZELBACHER: More than a lot of stars. Well it`s like "Days of Our Lives" on the Hills these days. It`s absolutely ridiculous, the Americans are tired and we need to get back to the fundamentals of the constitution. Follow that. That`s what T.E.A. parties are all about.
BEHAR: OK, well who do you want to see run in 2012?
WURZELBACHER: Nobody as far--
BEHAR: Do you want Sarah Palin to run?
WURZELBACHER: I like Sarah Palin a lot. I met her --
BEHAR: Do you think she`s competent?
WURZELBACHER: Absolutely competent. Yea no, I think she`s a great woman
BEHAR: Did you help her write the book? Come on.
WURZELBAHCER: No.
BEHAR: Joe Wurzelbacher -- did I say it right?
WURZELBACHER: You said it right.
BEHAR: Thanks for joining me tonight.
WURZELBACHER: It`s my pleasure.
BEHAR: And Thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
