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Campbell Brown
Interview With Senior White House Adviser Valerie Jarrett; Interview With Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
Aired October 27, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
We are joining you from Los Angeles tonight.
Tonight, we are going to hear from some of the most powerful and influential women in the country. They are all here in California for the Women's Conference. One of the president's senior advisers, Valerie Jarrett, is joining us as well, as former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.
But we start tonight, as always, with the "Mash-Up." It is of course our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.
And our top story tonight, punishment handed down for those Northwest pilots who overshot their destination by more than 150 miles. Yesterday, federal investigators revealed, the pilots were playing around on their laptops. Well, today they lost their license to fly. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Delta said yesterday that they were going to keep the pilots on suspension until the NTSB completed its investigation, but the FAA has gone ahead before that investigation is done and revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airline pilots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FAA says it took such harsh and rapid action because the Northwest pilots acted -- quote -- "carelessly and recklessly."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a statement, the FAA cited violations of a number of regulations, including failure to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: One flight attendant who was on board that flight last week says, in her opinion, they should have lost their licenses, calling the pilots' actions scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The pilots have 10 days to appeal the FAA's decision.
In Afghanistan tonight, a somber milestone -- October now officially the deadliest months for U.S. troops since the war began. Today, more Americans lost their lives on the battlefield.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: These were very complex attacks, which means the insurgents set off one or more roadside bombs and coordinated that with small-arms fire, which suggests an ambush.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ambush left seven American troops and their Afghan translator dead. In another attack, a roadside bomb left one American soldier dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today's losses bring the American death toll in October to at least 55, the highest in a single month since the war began. Why the increase? The Taliban have been gaining momentum, especially since failed elections this summer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Capitol Hill today, Senator John McCain, an ardent supporter of sending more troops, said the losses only increase the need.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Every day that goes by without that decision being made, the more days there are where young Americans are unnecessarily in harm's way, in my view.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Twenty-four Americans have been killed in Afghanistan within the past 48 hours.
Here at home, a State Department official and former Marine captain has resigned in protest of the war in Afghanistan. Foreign Service Officer Matthew Hoh calls the war a cavalier, politically expedient and Pollyannish misadventure.
CNN's Brian Todd caught up with him this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You seem to have just kind of grown disenchanted -- disenchanted with the mission?
MATTHEW HOH, QUIT DIPLOMATIC JOB IN AFGHANISTAN: The fundamental reason is that, basically, I feel that our strategies in Afghanistan are not pursuing goals that are worthy of sacrificing our young men and women or spending the billions we're doing there.
I believe that the people we are fighting there are fighting us because we're occupying them.
When the newspapers or television reference, you know, somebody's son or somebody's husband being killed by the Taliban, it's not the same guys that attacked us on 9/11.
We need to change our strategy, because, you know, it's the proverbial swatting the fly with the sledgehammer. All you do is basically exhaust yourself and you put holes in your walls and floors, and you don't do anything to the fly.
TODD: Do you ever believe Afghanistan will become a secure, reasonably Democratic nation?
HOH: It may, but I don't believe it's in the interests of the United States to push for that. It doesn't serve any strategic purpose for the United States to spill, you know, young men's lives to gain that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: (AUDIO GAP) They asked Hoh to stay. He refused.
Meanwhile, an extraordinary tale of survival in Afghanistan coming from "New York Times" reporter David Rohde. He was kidnapped by the Taliban last November, spent seven months in captivity before escaping in June. Well, now he's finally beginning to describe his experience.
Here he is with Charlie Rose on PBS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID ROHDE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": When I told him I was American, the driver who had just abducted us, this Taliban fighter said -- he sort of grinned when I said I was American. He said, "Ah, yes, we will send a blood message to Obama."
CHARLIE ROSE, PBS: What did you think was going to happen?
ROHDE: That first afternoon, I thought there was a chance we would be killed. And throughout this, the biggest threat was to the two Afghans who worked with me that day. I always felt they would be the first ones to be killed, not me.
And I made a mistake on the second night of captivity. They came and the same commander who I had met on the first day picked us up and announced an Al-Jazeera film crew and Arabs were coming and they were going to behead him.
And I immediately went in and saying to him, we're worth more alive than dead. He asked, what do you think I can get in exchange for the three of you. And I said money and prisoners.
They're convinced that they will succeed against the United States. And one of the things that surprised me was that they -- they hate President Obama far more than they hate President George W. Bush.
ROSE: Because?
ROHDE: Because he has increased the number of drone strikes in the tribal areas, and he has increased American troop levels into Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Much more on Afghanistan tonight, including my interview with President Obama's senior adviser, Valerie Jarrett.
On Capitol Hill tonight, Senator Joe Lieberman once again taking on his former Democratic colleagues. He is pledging to join Republicans to filibuster any health care bill that includes a public option.
Well, such a bill, of course, was announced just last night by Majority Leader Harry Reid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (I), CONNECTICUT: If at the end it's not what I think is good for our country and most people living in our country, then I will vote against cloture, I will join a filibuster, and I will try to stop the bill from passing.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lieberman says he will try to block any kind of government-run health care option from passing the Senate, even if it allows states to opt out.
LIEBERMAN: It's still a government-run health insurance plan that puts the federal taxpayer on the line, and I don't want to do that at this point in our nation's history.
BASH: Lieberman with his complicated calculus is exhibit A of how uncertain a government-run health insurance option still is in the Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senator Lieberman, of course, an independent these days. He generally votes with the Democrats, except when he doesn't.
The health care debate in Congress today downright scary at times, the House floor just awash in Halloween metaphors, lawyers -- or lawmakers, rather, laying it on thick. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE CONAWAY (R), TEXAS: On this Halloween week, I urge the speaker to take off the mask of reform.
REP. TED POE (R), TEXAS: In the dark caverns of the capital, where the trolls roam at night, the Halloween health care bill is being drafted by a secret few.
REP. DENNY REHBERG (R), MONTANA: Stitched together in hidden laboratories from parts of at least five different bills and countless special interests, the final health care monster will ultimately hurt American seniors.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: It's alive.
REP. PHIL GINGREY (R), GEORGIA: They are plotting a costly government takeover of health care in the dark of night.
REP. PATRICK KENNEDY (D), RHODE ISLAND: I don't know why the other side is so hell-bent on protecting insurance companies.
POE: That's Halloween health care, and it's coming to your door. Trick or treat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President Obama far from Capitol Hill today. He was out on the stump in Virginia campaigning for beleaguered candidate for governor Creigh Deeds. With Election Day fast approaching, the famed Obama stump speech is getting a workout. We noticed one metaphor in heavy rotation used four times in the past week. Behold the president now on message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: After inauguration, they had left a big mess on the floor, so I got a mop. I have got my mop. We have got our mops. And I started cleaning up their messes. Mopping the, and mopping the floor here. That's OK. I don't mind.
The folks who made the mess are standing there, you're not mapping fast enough. You're not mopping fast enough. You're not mopping fast enough. You're not holding the mop the right way, the right way. You're not holding the mop the right way. Or that's a socialist mop. It's a a socialist mop.
My attitude is, why don't you grab a mop? Just grab a mop. I want them to grab a mop. Help me out here. Grab a mop. Grab a mop or a broom or something. Make yourself useful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The president invoking his mop mantra in Florida, Connecticut, Virginia, and in New York.
On to the ghost of campaigns past and a rare look inside the Obama for president operation, and this comes courtesy of a new HBO documentary, "By the People," that was produced by actor Ed Norton. And he was on "Good Morning America" today with a preview. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Would you get that?
MALIA OBAMA, DAUGHTER OF BARACK AND MICHELLE OBAMA: I will get it.
MICHELLE OBAMA: If it's Kathy (ph), tell her she can stay as long as she wants.
MALIA OBAMA: Hello.
Hi, daddy.
MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh, it's dad.
(CROSSTALK)
MALIA OBAMA: Daddy, I had to eat a lot of chocolate today. OK. I love you.
SASHA OBAMA, DAUGHTER OF BARACK AND MICHELLE OBAMA: Hi, daddy. Good.
DIANE SAWYER, CO-HOST, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA": Do you really think you saw the true family, though?
EDWARD NORTON, ACTOR: There's an unprecedented level of access to a candidate as he goes through this experience, and his family and his senior advisers.
I mean, we -- we got opportunities to shoot debate prep, to be with them in the surge of the emotion of the victories and kind of setbacks. And I think it's an unusual intimacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A pretty unique look, I will say. The film follows Obama from the snows of Iowa to election night in Chicago.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. This is courtesy of David Letterman, taking aim at a pretty easy target.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": So, now Northwest Airlines terribly embarrassed, and they have this new announcement. Have you seen the announcement from Northwest Airlines? Take a look. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Northwest redefines luxury with our cozy new cockpit. Our pilot seats fully recline, giving you the ultimate in comfort. We will also provide you with a complimentary iPod to help you drown out pesky warnings from air traffic control.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: And, as always, on Northwest Airlines, pilots drink free.
Northwest Airlines.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LETTERMAN: They don't really have to be there at all.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Shooting fish in a barrel. David Letterman, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Tonight, we have a quite a roster of women. We are sitting down with some of the most powerful, some of the most interesting women in the country, Madeleine Albright, Dara Torres, and one of President Obama's closest advisers, Valerie Jarrett. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALERIE JARRETT, SENIOR PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: We saw all of the distortions in the course of the summer, when people were coming down to town hall meetings and putting up signs that were scaring seniors to death, and we have seen commercials go up on television that are distorting the truth.
We're -- we are actually calling everybody out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We are here in California tonight. We're covering the Women's Conference hosted by California's first lady, Maria Shriver. Some of the most powerful, some of the most interesting women in the country have gathered here to tackle some of the most important issues facing not just women, all of us.
And just a little while ago, I sat down for a fascinating conversation with one of the most powerful women. She is tonight's newsmaker, Valerie Jarrett, President Obama's senior adviser. We talked about everything from health care reform, to White House accusations of media bias, to the war in Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It's been more than a month since General McChrystal asked for more troops, more boots on the ground. And he said, if he doesn't get more troops in Afghanistan, more lives will be lost and the mission will fail.
What's taking so long?
JARRETT: Well, the president is engaged in a very thoughtful and deliberate process. Before he puts our men and women in harm's way, he wants to make absolutely sure, not just of the number of troops, but that there's an overall strategy for success.
And, so, he's had numerous meetings with his security team, his Defense Department team. And he will make the decision in the prudent amount of time. He's not going to be rushed into making a decision before he's sure that he and his team have thought it thoroughly.
And it will be part of a larger comprehensive strategy. So, he's not at any risk right now of anything going wrong by not having made the decision and he's going to do it in deliberate speed.
BROWN: Do you believe that, that the time it's taking is not endangering troops...
(CROSSTALK)
JARRETT: Absolutely.
But, more importantly, his defense team thinks -- and they're very comfortable that he has the time that he needs. There are a lot of issues. In addition to the number of troops, we're looking at what's going on in Afghanistan with the election. We're talking to the surrounding countries, our allies.
And we're looking for an overall strategy in place. And I think what we want is a president who's going to push his team to make sure that they have all the answers they need before they make a decision about putting more of our men and women in harm's way.
BROWN: Because he talked so much during the campaign about the importance of listening to his generals. And, at the same time, I think it looks to a lot of people like he may be trapped a little bit between civilian advisers and his military advisers trying to make this decision.
JARRETT: No, I don't think...
BROWN: No?
JARRETT: I don't think he feels that way at all. I think that it's a complicated issue. And what the generals say is very important and he's certainly taking that into consideration.
But it's a part of a bigger strategy. And the strategy is, how do we keep our nation safe? And so the number of troops is one component of an overall plan.
BROWN: Bottom line, are we going to see more troops, whatever the number may be, there before the end of the year?
JARRETT: I'm not prepared to give you any time frame. I just know that we should be confident that the president will make a measured decision in a time frame that he thinks is going to lead to success.
BROWN: Another huge issue on your plate right now is health care reform.
JARRETT: Yes.
BROWN: Senator Harry Reid has said that the public option is going to be part of the Senate bill, with states being allowed to opt out of it. The president has been very vocal in his support of the public option, but is he going to put real muscle behind it and insist on it?
JARRETT: What the president has said from the very beginning is, is that he thinks that the public option is important. Why? Because he thinks that it will bring competition and therefore reduce costs. And that's what's most important to the American people. We have got to bring the costs of health care down. He thinks the public option is the perfect way to do that. He's said that throughout the process, and he has pushed for that throughout the process.
So, we're delighted that Senator Reid, together with Senator Dodd, have made all the progress that they have in the Senate. I think you should take a minute and just say five committees for the first time in history have approved a bill, have approved bills, and all of those bills are consistent with the basic parameters that the president set forth at the beginning of the process.
We're almost there, and he is confident that we're going to have health care reform this year.
BROWN: Will he insist on it, though?
JARRETT: On health care reform? Absolutely.
BROWN: No, no, on the public option.
JARRETT: Absolutely.
BROWN: Will he insist on the public option?
JARRETT: Listen, I think what he has said is, he believes it's the best way. He's been having open dialogue with both the Republicans and the Democrats. We're very close. And he doesn't want to get out ahead of the process. This has been a terrific process.
It's been transparent. The American people have had an opportunity to participate in it and be engaged in it in the most fruitful way we have seen so far. And, so, let's just let Congress have a little bit more time and we think that we're going to get this done.
BROWN: Officials have been very public about their feelings about FOX News and what they believe FOX News is and represents. And they made a point of coming out and saying it.
JARRETT: What we're saying is, is that we want the public to understand what's going on.
When we saw the kind of distortions this summer, particularly directed at seniors, over health care reform, it was really outrageous. And I think what the president said in his message before Congress is, we're going to speak directly to the American people and make sure that they understand the truth.
And so, certainly, if we see somebody distorting the truth, we're going to call them on the carpet for that. But we don't want to take our focus away from the core issues that are so important to the American people. Now, when there's all that chatter and distortion and false information, we have to disseminate -- we have to distinguish between truth and fiction.
BROWN: So do you think FOX News is biased?
JARRETT: Well, of course they're biased. Of course they are.
BROWN: OK. Then do you also think that MSNBC is biased?
JARRETT: Well, you know what? This is the thing. I don't want to -- actually, I don't want to just generalize all FOX is biased or that another station is biased.
I think what we want to do is look at it on a case-by-case basis. And when we see a pattern of distortion, we're going to be honest about that pattern of distortion.
BROWN: But you only see that at FOX News? That's all that -- you have spoken out about FOX News.
JARRETT: That's actually not true.
I think that what the administration has said very clearly is that we're going to speak truth to power. When we saw all of the distortions in the course of the summer, when people were coming down to town hall meetings and putting up signs that were scaring seniors to death, when we have seen commercials go up on television that are distorting the truth, we're actually calling everybody out.
So, this isn't something that's simply directed at FOX. We really just want the American people to have a clear understanding. There's so much at stake right now. We really don't have a lot of time for nonsense and distortions.
The American people are also smarter than that. Let them reach their own judgments based on the facts. Let's just take health care, for example. Reasonable people could differ about the right approach. So, let's have a conversation about that. Let's not scare people by telling them that things are going to happen that are actually not even on the table. Let's just talk about the facts.
BROWN: Let's talk about this event.
JARRETT: Let's talk about this event. How cool is this, to be here with all these terrific women?
BROWN: It is a fantastic conference that Maria has pulled off year after year now, five years.
You are also chair of the White House Council on Women and Girls. And you read Maria's groundbreaking report. Give us your takeaways about what's in that report, about what it means for women going forward right now and what needs to be done. What can government do specifically?
JARRETT: Thank you. Thank you, because government has a very important role. And I think let's talk about the president, for example.
This is someone who grew up, was raised by a single mother, a mom who had to make very difficult choices in order to pursue her career. And so, for a portion of his childhood, he was actually raised by his grandparents.
He has married this terrific first lady, who is a professional woman, and who until she became the first lady had her own independent career. And then he's got these two great, terrific daughters. And so he knows firsthand what this work-life balance is about.
And I think Maria's report really speaks to how are we going to change the paradigm, now that women represent so much of the work force. Nearly -- over 49 percent of the work force is women. And our institutions haven't really changed to accommodate that change in a paradigm.
And, so, the question is, what should the federal government do? And so what the president has always said, throughout his career, is that government needs to be more flexible. We need to let the people, both men and women, have more control over their hours.
Women are always the ones that take the kids to school, that take everyone to doctor's appointments. They even make their spouse's doctor's appointments. And, now, as Maria has said, elder care has become an increasing issue in our country, as people are, fortunately, living longer. All that can't simply rest on the woman.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That was senior White House adviser Valerie Jarrett.
When we come back: new information about how much the publisher of Sarah Palin's new book had to pay up to land the former governor's story.
Also, tonight's next newsmaker: former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. She talks about what she thinks about all the conflicting advice that President Obama is getting about sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I had felt before that what we needed was a confident president who was comfortable getting all these different views.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Age is just a number to Olympic gold medalist Dara Torres, still a world-class swimmer at 42. She's going to join us in just a few moments.
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: Some of the most fascinating women in America gathering here in California for the Women's Conference. Tonight's next newsmaker, one of them, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.
Listen to what she says about the war in Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBRIGHT: The question is what has to happen in terms of a functioning government in Afghanistan that is able to provide enough security so that the Taliban doesn't run everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, is among those watching closely as President Obama nears his all-important decision about whether to send more troops to Afghanistan.
And one of his final meetings before making that decision is going to be this Friday with the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Well, today, at the Women's Conference, I spoke with Albright about Afghanistan and a few other things. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Let's start by talking about Afghanistan. More soldiers were killed. This is now the deadliest month. The president is under a lot of pressure to make a decision about whether to send more troops into Afghanistan. What do you think? Does he need to make this decision sooner rather than later?
ALBRIGHT: I think he has to make the decision in a very deliberate way, which is what he's doing. It is a really serious decision, and clearly, in previous times, people decided to up the number of forces in Iraq or even get into Iraq, I think, without enough decision making.
I had felt, before, that what we needed was a confident president who was comfortable getting all these different views. So I'm very comfortable with the way that the process is working.
BROWN: What do you think about Vice President Cheney's comments that he is dithering in terms of making this decision?
ALBRIGHT: Just partisan politics, you know. I think that it doesn't -- it might have helped if the previous administration would take a little bit more time deciding on Iraq.
BROWN: At this point, how do we begin to define victory in Afghanistan?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that's the hard part. Because what President Obama said is that Al Qaeda is the problem in terms of dismantling and destroying Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda gets a kind of safe haven protection from the Taliban. So the question is, what has to happen in terms of a functioning government in Afghanistan that is able to provide enough security so that the Taliban does not run everything. And so I think it's not going to be simple, kind of just saying, you know, we just run and walk out of there. It's a more complex issue.
BROWN: Let me also ask you about Iraq because we've also just seen this huge upswing in violence in Iraq over the last few days. The president still saying he wants troops out of Iraq by August. Is that realistic?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think the president means that. And what is interesting that I read this morning that as a result of the violence, there has been movement among the politicians to develop an electoral law that they had been unable to compromise on, because they were supposed to have elections in January. And part of the deal, as in Afghanistan, ultimately, the Iraqi people have to run their own country. And so that set of decisions and as horrible as the violence is, I was surprised to see that it had an effect of uniting some of the political people on this electoral law.
BROWN: It has been, I believe this is right, almost 13 years since you were sworn in as secretary of state, female secretary of state, of course, Hillary Clinton now on the job. How often do you converse with her, talk to her, advise her on what's going on? I know you have a close relationship with her. What's it like?
ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I have to tell you, my youngest granddaughter who just turned 7 said to her mother, my daughter, so what's the big deal about Grandma Maddy (ph) being secretary of state. Only girls are secretary of state, and she just turned 7, so in her lifetime --
BROWN: It's true.
ALBRIGHT: It's true, which is really great.
BROWN: That's incredible.
ALBRIGHT: And certainly the theme of this conference. But -- well, first of all, it's interesting and that I had been a former secretary of state when not my party was in power. So here with the Democratic administration, it's a little bit different, or when one of my really close friends is secretary of state.
So we have a lot of different ways that we communicate. We talk on the phone. I send memos in and do different things. And, of course, a lot of the people that work with Hillary, Secretary Clinton, are also good friends. So I feel very comfortable with the State Department.
BROWN: Is there any area where you would like to see her have a stronger voice or talk about more and be more resourceful?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I tell you, I think that people misunderstand what the role of secretary of state is. She is the chief diplomat. There are issues out there of such major imports that require the whole national security team. So I think what she's doing, and I agree with the way she goes about it, she's a problem solver. She is not somebody that feels that she has to be in the forefront. She wants to get problems solved and I think she's doing a great job on that.
BROWN: Well, she's also delegating a lot and appointing people to take on major projects. Which not to be too rah-rah, but we are at The Women's Conference, strikes me as something that a confident women would be more inclined to do.
ALBRIGHT: I believe that. I mean, part of it is to solve the problem, not necessarily get the credit. And I think there were questions when I became secretary of state, people said, will I -- would she have -- would I have men around me, or would she be afraid to have men? I think a confident woman, which I consider myself, is happy to have people that can do the job that, in fact, contribute to the solutions of problems. And I think that's what Secretary Clinton has really been doing.
BROWN: I have to ask you about the book you have written because I have seen it. It is fascinating and it is about your pins and the meaning that you bestow to each one, and a lot of people might be surprised that there's a lot of thought that goes into this.
ALBRIGHT: Well, I don't want people to think I'm a lunatic and I think about them. But what happened, I love to talk about foreign policy, as you know, and I have tried very hard to make foreign policy less foreign. And the pins are a way of really doing that.
It all began when I was at the U.N. because Saddam Hussein called me an unparalleled serpent and I had a snake pin, so I decided to wear it at Security Council meetings when we dealt with Iraq. So, I had fun with it and it's kind of foreign policy with a spoon full of sugar. And it has enabled me with this new book to go around and people basically ask me foreign policy questions. And so that's what it's about and it's true.
BROWN: And the pin you're wearing today?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I have a pin today which is of a woman, freedom, and this is the statue that was on top of the Capitol. And my earrings say liberty. So, you know, it seems like the right theme for this wonderful Women's Conference.
BROWN: Secretary Albright, always great to talk to you. Thanks so much for joining us.
ALBRIGHT: Great to be with you, Campbell. Good luck. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Our intriguing person tonight coming up, champion swimmer Dara Torres. How the mother of a toddler got back into the pool and won three more Olympic medals.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: One of tonight's intriguing people is also an amazing athlete. She's a swimmer and Olympic gold medalist Dara Torres. 42 years old, she has remained a force to be reckoned with in the pool, even after competing in five Olympics going back to 1984. Some wonder if she can do it again in 2012 after recently undergoing knee surgery.
Along with her feats in the water, Torres also wrote a book, "Age is Just a Number: Achieve Your Dreams at Any Stage in Your Life." Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: You did your first Olympics at 17 years old, the last when you were 41. Does winning feel different for you?
DARA TORRES, SWIMMER: You're more appreciative of it. You know, when you're 17 years old, you take things for granted. You're kind of more in awe of everyone else that was there. This is not a big deal. You go back to high school and do your thing. But when you're 41 years old and winning medals, even if it's a silver or whatever it is, you're just more appreciative of it. You don't take things for granted.
BROWN: What keeps you motivated? I mean, you've broken world records, you've got the medals. How do you maintain that desire to win?
TORRES: That's it. I want the desire. I have that desire to win. And when I don't have it, I stop swimming.
I'm very competitive. I love standing up and racing against the kids and I think having my daughter motivated me a lot. I wanted to show her one day when she's old enough to understand it that you don't have to put an age limit on your dreams. And I'm hoping that day will come soon when she can start to understand that.
BROWN: You did something that I think a lot of women are doing right now. And you just did it on an Olympic stage. I mean, you were going hard core, focused on your goals and your ambitions. You took a break to have your daughter. And then you got back in the game. And that, I think, is really inspiring for a lot of women.
But is it hard? How hard was it for you to do that in the public eye in the way that you did?
TORRES: I really had no idea it was going to blow up the way it did. It was different. You know, I was 39 years old when I had Tessa. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd get back and swim again. I was just doing it for exercise while I was pregnant and it kind of snowballed and I thought, OK, I'll go for another Olympics.
But it was a -- it was a great experience. And I really look to working parents as role models as to how to do it because I didn't know how to do it. I never had a kid. It's always been about me my whole life. I had her at a late stage in my life and I didn't know how to balance going in training and then being the best parent I could be. And those working parents out there really helped me with that.
BROWN: But I'll be honest, I hate the word "balance," because I don't think it exists. I struggle with it every day of my life and I never think I achieved it. How did you do it?
TORRES: Well, I didn't say it was easy. You know, I mean, there were days when you go the pool and my daughter is crying. She doesn't want me to leave, the idea of that sort of guilty feeling.
BROWN: Yes.
TORRES: That guilty feeling.
BROWN: Do you have it? Do you feel guilty a lot?
TORRES: I left yesterday to come out here for this Women's Conference and she was hysterically crying and I just -- my heart sunk. And the way I try to do it is like, mommy has to go work, and you know, you'll understand this one day. I try to explain it to her and sometimes I say well, if mommy doesn't work, she doesn't make money. She can't buy you presents. You know, so, you have to figure out a way to try to, you know, I can get them to understand it. But it does, it tugs at my heart and it's hard, but, you know, I want her to know that when she's older, she can be a parent and also do what she loves to do.
BROWN: Are you done swimming competitively? Is there going to be another Olympics for Dara Torres?
TORRES: You know, I just had major knee surgery. My knee is propped up now and it's about a 12 to 18-month recovery.
BROWN: Oh, wow.
TORRES: You know, it still gives me a little under two years to go for it if I want to. I would like the opportunity to have the choice to say, yes, I want to go for this. My knee is fine, my shoulder is fine, everything's good, I want to go for this.
I will be 45 in 2012 and might be going through menopause then, I don't know. But, you know, hopefully I'll have a choice and in the back of mind, I really would love to go for it.
BROWN: Well, we will all be pulling for you.
TORRES: Thank you.
BROWN: Dara Torres, so good to talk to you.
TORRES: Thanks, Campbell. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And coming up in the competitive world of fashion magazines. One editor was willing to take a chance by showing a model who may be wasn't a perfect ten. That editor, Cindi Leive of "Glamour" magazine, sat down with me today to talk about the reaction from her readers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDI LEIVE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "GLAMOUR": Women are built all different ways. Some are size zeros, some are size ten, some are size 20. And we wanted to do something that would show that, look, women of all shapes and sizes can be gorgeous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. Again tonight, we're coming from Los Angeles. We are here covering The Women's Conference, some of the most powerful, influential women in the country out here.
In September, "Glamour" magazine's editor-in-chief Cindi Leive took what some considered a true fashion risk. Her magazine included a picture of a plus-sized woman, not just the thin beyond belief women that some consider a must in modeling. The overwhelmingly positive response inspired "Glamour" to take a closer look on complete with new images in its November issue. And I spoke with Leive today about this at The Women's Conference. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So there is a photo in the current issue of the magazine that people are just going crazy over. And we're going to show it to the audience right now. Why? Why, at first, why did it become so important for you to feature plus-sized models?
CINDI LEIVE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "GLAMOUR": Well, we've heard over and over and over again that this is what readers want. You know, they are fed up with seeing just one size body in magazines. And, you know, the fact of the matter is that women are built all different ways. Some are a size zero, some are size 10, some are size 20. And we wanted to do something that would show that, look, women of all shapes and sizes can be gorgeous.
We're a fashion magazine. We love the fantasy and the glamour of beauty and fashion photography, but I think it should be a fantasy that is accessible to a wider range of people.
BROWN: What's amazing to me is that anything larger than a size six is considered plus size in the fashion world. And the vast majority of us are larger than a size six.
LEIVE: It's one of the bizarre realities of the modeling industry that once you're over a size six, you're considered a "plus- sized model." Of course, you're not actually a plus-sized human until you're size 14 and over, and there are very few plus-sized models who are. But nonetheless, the women who you see in our magazine are all working as so-called plus-sized models and they are four to six sizes larger than most models you see in magazines.
BROWN: So is this a permanent change for "Glamour" going forward, that you really do want to embrace a little bit more on natural (ph), more akin to what women really look like? LEIVE: What we're embracing is diversity. You know, we'll continue to use gorgeous so-called straight size models who are the smaller models but we'll use them alongside women you haven't seen before in magazines.
BROWN: And I know you wrote about a designer in London, this kind of amazed me too, who put three size ten models in his runway show and then some of the creative people quit in protest?
LEIVE: Apparently, there was some pushback from some people on his creative team. But the bottom line was the show looked gorgeous, the clothes looked amazing.
BROWN: But what's this mentality in the fashion world that you would have people say, oh, no, no, no, I can't do this, I can't be a part of it.
LEIVE: You know, I think a lot of it is just tradition. This is not the way fashion has looked historically. But bottom line, designers are in this to make money. They want to sell their clothes. And particularly at this economic moment, if a larger-sized woman or even a size 10 or 12 woman has good money that she's going to pay for your clothing, of course, you're going to market to her. And I think things are changing.
BROWN: And you also, I know "Glamour" has also been opposed to photo shopping actresses or models and, you know, making that a part of your sort of standard, we're not going to go there. Why did you make that decision and should that be the norm for other magazines, do you think?
LEIVE: The main reason we're making that decision is that women like it. Readers relate to it.
I mean, listen, we all know that sometimes the moment that you look your most beautiful is not when you're looking your most "perfect." And we find that readers respond to images that, yes, are gorgeous but also have a little bit of difference in them. So, you know, gap teethed, freckles, all those things that sometimes go away in pictures, we believe that they look pretty cool.
BROWN: Should that be the norm? No more air brushing it out?
LEIVE: You know, listen, I'm not making decisions for anybody else's magazine. This is what our readers seem to respond to and we're excited about giving it to them.
BROWN: Well, we're excited about the changes.
LEIVE: Thank you.
BROWN: Cindy Leive from "Glamour" magazine, thank you.
LEIVE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we're back, everybody. Also at today's Women's Conference here in California, a few great men, including Premal Shah. He is the president of kiva.org. And tonight he gives us an inside look at a Web site that combines the worldwide power of social networking with the power to change someone's life with a loan. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Explain what Kiva is, how it works.
PREMAL SHAH, PRESIDENT, KIVA.ORG: So Kiva is a Web site that allows you to pick an entrepreneur, that is typically a low-income entrepreneur who needs a little bit of capital to maybe buy a sewing machine or a cow, or something really basic so that they can basically, you know, start a small business and earn their way out of poverty. So you come to the site. You pick someone, you can lend $25. We take that money, we send it to a local field partner in one of 50 countries around the world and then you get repaid over 6 to 12 months and you can re-lend it or withdraw the money.
BROWN: Now, does the person who's lending the money, do they have any say, really, over how it's used or in what form and any level of involvement in the business?
SHAH: You know, one thing that's exciting is that these are ideas from people themselves who, you know, know their contacts really well. So that farmer in Kenya knows that the next thing that she needs to make her plot of land kind of more productive is an irrigation pump. So there's bottoms up people ideas that you're funding.
But what you do get is you get the transparency. You get to see where your money's going.
BROWN: Right.
SHAH: And you really get to connect with the kind of impact and like what happened. Did they actually grow more, you know, grow more of a type of seed, for example?
BROWN: So this was really successful, this concept, in the developing world. You're also bringing it to the states and doing it right here at home.
SHAH: You know, to be a small business here in the United States is actually very hard to get a loan. And then we thought, wow, with the financial crisis and the credit crunch, you know, who's focused on like small businesses here, especially, for example, a day care center. You know, a single parent who wants to start a day care center, if they don't have a sterling credit score, a lot of banks wouldn't lend to that person. And so Kiva just in June allowed U.S. entrepreneurs to raise money online as well.
BROWN: So how do you vet the people that are coming online?
SHAH: For example in Bronx, New York, we'll have a local field partner that knows that community really well. They're the ones who pick the entrepreneurs, take their photos and put them up on our Web site.
You know, I think one of the things about people versus banks is, if you can actually see the photo of who you're helping, you're willing to lend money I think at a lower rate of return and also take on more risk than a bank.
BROWN: Do you also see in this a way that, like, somebody in Kansas can connect with someone in Kenya and see the world in a different way.
SHAH: Yes. You know, I think one of the most kind of impactful things Kiva is doing is actually growing consciousness on the people who are actually giving. That person in Kansas who lends to someone in Kenya, well, you know, if there's post-election violence next year in Kenya and the article is in the world section of the newspaper, they're more likely to tune in because they have a loan outstanding to a fruit seller in Kenya. And a loan creates a persistent tie between you and someone cross the planet. And so I think we can grow consciousness there.
The second thing is that by launching in the U.S., we actually saw people in Kenya, Nairobi, Kenya, lending to people in the Bay Area, in California. So money is actually switching direction, and it's not just the typical people who get to lend or help, it's actually going in both directions on Kiva, and that's really exciting as well.
BROWN: Premal Shah, it's great to have you here.
SHAH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few moments. But first, Mike Galanos is back with tonight's "Guilty Pleasure," the video we just couldn't resist.
Mike, what have you got?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Here we go, Campbell. We're talking about an Internet superstar here. She's a 4'10" inch grandmother of six. Let's watch and listen to this 63-year-old as she beats down her 37-year-old neighbor with a newspaper. Check it out.
(VIDEO CLIP, FROM YOUTUBE.COM)
GALANOS: There we go. Letting him have it in more ways than one. They're arguing over this driveway right of way.
Now, this is an Internet hit. There's a lot of remixes. If we have time, let's listen to the remix to the sounds of the video game, "Mortal Combat." Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over here. Come here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: All right. There you go, Campbell. "Guilty Pleasures," there it is. Valerie Dunningham (ph) bringing it to us.
BROWN: Can't we all just get along, really, over driveway rights?
GALANOS: That's it.
BROWN: All right. Mike Galanos, how do you find these things? Mike, thanks so much, appreciate it.
That is it for us tonight. Thanks for watching, everybody. Keep it right here.
"LARRY KING LIVE" coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
