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American Morning
Wayward Northwest Airlines Pilots Deny Sleeping; Senate Health Reform Bill Version Includes Public Option; Obama Refusing to Rush Decision on Afghanistan; Homebuyer Help; Life in the Cockpit
Aired October 27, 2009 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome. It's Tuesday, October 27th. Glad you're with us on this AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Kiran Chetry.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. I'm John Roberts. Thanks for being with us. Here are the big stories we'll be telling you about coming up in the next 15 minutes here on the "Most News in the Morning."
Excuse me. Off to a roaring start here.
Two Northwest Airlines pilots insist that they were not asleep, just distracted when they overshot their landing last week in Minneapolis. So what exactly were they doing when air traffic controllers were trying in vain to radio them for more than an hour? The pilots' side of the story straight ahead. Maybe we should be doing something on swine flu this morning, though.
CHETRY: I think it's just a little cough there you got. Well, have a sip of water and we'll talk about it.
A major turnaround, by the way, in the battle over health care this morning. A bill headed to the Senate floor now includes a public option, a government-run insurance plan. But getting it to the president's desk, well, that's going to be a whole other fight. We're live in Washington to break it down for you.
ROBERTS: More at a critical decision. President Obama on the campaign trail today as a top general in Afghanistan waits to see if he'll get the troops he says he needs and why a man who almost became the commander in chief says sending more troops is the wrong call.
CHETRY: We begin though this morning with the two Northwest Airline pilots who overshot their landing by 150 miles. They insist they were not sleeping. They claim that they got distracted while using their laptops.
Air traffic controllers lost touch with the crew of flight 188 for more than an hour last Wednesday night, triggering fears of a possible hijacking. Fighter jets were ready to scramble when the airbus flew right over Minneapolis airport all the way into Wisconsin. That's when officials finally established radio contact and were able to get the plane turned around.
Jeanne Meserve is live for us in Washington. So, what do we know, Jeanne, this morning about what these pilots were doing and what exactly they're telling investigators happened?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Kiran, the pilots were both seasoned veterans with unblemished records but their careers may well be over. During five hours of interviews with the National Transportation Safety Board, they said they were not asleep not arguing but distracted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): The Northwest pilots tell NTSB investigators they did not fall asleep or doze. They just had a 19- hour layover. But they say they used their personal laptop computers during the flight of violation of company policy. The pilots tell the NTSB they looked at the computers during what they called a concentrated period of discussion of scheduling issues arising from the merger of Northwest and Delta.
The pilots also told investigators that during this discussion they did not monitor the airplane. They were aware of conversations on the radio but did not listen to transmissions from air traffic control or notice messages from company dispatchers. They say they lost track of time and only when a flight attendant asked about their arrival time did they realize they had flown past their destination.
PETER GOELZ, FORMER NTSB MANAGING DIRECTOR: These pilots were simply not paying attention for a period of time. And is that a serious offense? It is. But it's not one that I think put the lives of those people in jeopardy.
MESERVE: Delta, the parent company of Northwest, says the pilots will remain on suspension until the investigation is over, but said in the statement using laptops is strictly against the airline's flight deck policies and violations of that policy will result in termination.
MARK WEISS, RETIRED AMERICAN AIRLINES CAPTAIN: You're always supposed to maintain situational awareness and somebody's always supposed to be watching the airplane and flying the airplane. That's your first order of duty. That's your first priority. So there really is no excuse, no reason to allow it to go to this point. Should not have happened.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: The investigation continues Monday. The NTSB talked to the three flight attendants on the flight to get their version of events. And parent company Delta has sent $500 travel vouchers to the passengers onboard that errant flight. Kiran, back to you.
CHETRY: All right. Jeanne Meserve for us this morning. Thanks so much.
And stick around. In the next hour, we'll be joined by John Lucich, as well as Ben Berman, two licensed commercial pilots with investigative backgrounds. And in about 15 minutes we'll go into a cockpit simulator to see just how easy or difficult it is to actually tune out while you're at the controls of an airplane.
Meantime, also new this morning, another apparent failure to communicate leading to a very close call at Los Angeles International Airport. Officials there confirming a taxiing Midwest Express jet and a departing Northwest Airlines flight came within 100 feet of colliding on Sunday. The FAA says air traffic controllers ordered the Midwest flight to stop taxiing, but the pilot failed to follow the order. We're expecting more information on the investigation later today.
ROBERTS: Well, this morning, the arm twisting begins over the Senate's health care bill. A bill that Majority Leader Harry Reid announced will include a public option. But this version has its own option allowing states to opt out of the government-run plan. Now, Reid will need support of all 60 Democrats because his plan may cost them their best shot at bipartisanship. Republican Senator Olympia Snowe, the only Republican even close to a possible yes vote said she's disappointed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R), MAINE: It is regrettable because I certainly have worked in good faith all of these months on the bipartisan basis and, as you know, have been standing alone at this point as a Republican in order do so because I believe in good public policy in constructing the very best public policy on health care. Really does mean having everyone contributing to the ideas they can make it work and make it a workable practical solution that will benefit all Americans. And so, I think it's unfortunate that they decide -- the Senate majority leader decides to take a different path.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Our Jim Acosta is live in Washington this morning. And, Jim, this is a risk for the Senate majority here, albeit one that seems to at least have initial support from the White House.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Absolutely. As you can see there, the chance for Snowe has gone down considerably. And, John, for months, the fight over health care reform has boiled down to a fight over the public option. And now Democrats in the Senate are going to find out if this is a battle they can win.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (voice-over): For Democrats, it's a gamble. So it's fitting that Majority Leader Harry Reid from Nevada would roll the dice and announce the Senate's version of health care reform will include a public option.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: Well, the public option is not a silver bullet. I believe it's an important way to ensure competition at a level of playing field.
ACOSTA: Even though states would be allowed to opt out of the government insurance program for the uninsured, it's a calculated risk as Democrats don't have a lock on the 60 votes needed to break a filibuster.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: We're close. We're not there yet. But we're making good progress.
ACOSTA: Liberals did not give Democrats much of a choice with protests like this musical number that broke out at a conference for insurance companies. There are even ads aimed at the president himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You campaigned on a public health insurance option. We worked hard for it. We worked hard for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: The fact is, President Obama rarely talked about a public option during the campaign.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to immediately provide cost relief. Make sure that people who don't have enough coverage have coverage. And provide this option, this government option that people can buy into.
ACOSTA: To this day, the president has not demanded it, in part, because Republicans may stand united against it.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: As the public begins to understand that the public option is really a Trojan horse, which is going to lead to a single-payer or government-run system, I don't think they're going to be for it.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: One of the reasons it's so important to get the facts out is I think the American people have been misled about the public option.
ACOSTA: Oregon Democrat Ron Wyden points out people with insurance through their employer would be blocked from accessing the public option. That it's really a program for the uninsured.
WYDEN: When I was having my town meetings, people would stand up at rallies and say public option or bust. And then I would say, folks, I really appreciate your activism. Are you aware that the way these public option bills are written, more than 90 percent of you wouldn't even get to choose enough? And people were practically falling out of the bleachers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: That's because roughly 30 million Americans, only 30 million, would be able to buy into the public option. Those who already have insurance at work, that's 160 million will not. And the number of people left out of the public option would only go higher if entire states are given the option to opt out of the option, John.
ROBERTS: Right. Jim Acosta for us in Washington this morning. Jim, thanks.
CHETRY: Other stories new this morning at eight minutes past the hour now. President Obama pledging once again to close the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The president telling a congressional fund-raiser last night that he's serious about shutting down Gitmo, something he promised soon after taking office. But the White House appears to be backing off of the original January 2010 deadline saying that difficult issues still have to be resolved. More than 220 detainees remain at Gitmo.
ROBERTS: Iran's foreign minister says his government might agree to ship some low-grade enriched uranium to other countries that so it can be processed to fuel nuclear powered reactors. The deadline for a deal with the West expired last Friday, but the "Tehran Times" is reporting that Iran's parliamentary speaker is saying the U.S. is really trying to trick his country into giving away its enriched uranium.
CHETRY: Going back to the Titanic, the company that has exclusive rights to salvage the ship told a maritime judge it's planning a new expedition next year. That would be the first since 2004. There have been competing claims over who was allowed to explore the most famous shipwreck of all time. The court is also trying to keep the collection of artifacts from under the sea valued at more than $110 million as a collection open to the public.
ROBERTS: Well, if you bought a Baby Einstein video and it turns out that your kid is no Einstein, guess what, you can get your money back. The Walt Disney Company is offering cash refunds on Baby Einstein DVDs that were bought between June of 2004 and September 2009. They will also exchange the DVDs for a Baby Einstein book or CD. The videos have been the target of critics who claim that the company misrepresented them as educational tools.
CHETRY: I'm so glad I'm out of that phase. I'm looking at all that stuff. My little -- my older one used to really like them.
ROBERTS: Yes. Well, you've got a new one that's just coming right into the sweet spot there.
CHETRY: Yes. I mean, no. I mean, no. I mean, what do you mean by that? See, it is something I don't know.
ROBERTS: Well, you've got a young child.
CHETRY: Yes. 18 months old.
ROBERTS: Yes.
CHETRY: But, you know, the problem is when you have an older one, the younger one never gets to enjoy the baby stuff. You have to go right to, you know, Diego (ph). It happens.
ROBERTS: Or baseball. Diego Rivera.
CHETRY: Right to the NFL. No Baby Einstein. Still ahead, though, we're going to be talking about the president's decision on Afghanistan. There are many who are putting a lot of pressure on this administration to make a decision and make one quickly. But we're going to talk about why Russia may not be an option either.
Ten minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: New this morning, heart attacks are becoming more common in middle-aged women. There are two new studies showing that in the last 20 years the risk is increasing among women and decreasing in men. Overall, though, men had more heart attacks than women. The research suggests that risk factors for heart disease like high blood pressure and high cholesterol are not as assessed or treated as aggressively in women as they are in men.
ROBERTS: Coast to coast the number of newspapers being bought and delivered is down. Way down. The audit bureau of circulation's reports for the period of March through September circulation at 379 papers dropped nearly 11 percent from last year. The two biggest reasons, papers have raised prices to deal with the drop in ad revenue and, of course, free news online any time you want.
CHETRY: Yes. Absolutely.
Well, after nine months of being nearly invisible, former President Bush made his debut as a motivational speaker. Eleven thousand people showed up at the Fort Worth Convention Center. It's just down the block from his new home in Dallas. He told the audience that he stands by decisions he made as president and encouraged others to stick to their principles and to live each day to their fullest.
ROBERTS: Exactly one week to go now until crucial mid-term elections. President Obama heads to Virginia today, mounting a final push in the state's critical governor's race. Before squeezing in a little campaigning, the president held his sixth war strategy session yesterday on the deadliest day for American troops in Afghanistan in four years. But still, the president is calling for patience saying he will not rush his decision on whether to send in more troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will never rush the solemn decision of sending you into harm's way. I won't risk your lives unless it is absolutely necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Kate Bolduan is the only reporter live at the White House. She joins us now.
Kate, what are you hearing about a timetable for the president's decision on Afghanistan? KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, John. Well, the White House says it's coming. When they say it's coming when the time is right. But a White House official indicating to me that yesterday's meeting, the sixth of his, the president's meetings with his national security team, reviewing the strategy in Afghanistan. White House officials saying that meeting was in the latter part of the review phase, weeks-long review phase that has been going on here at the White House. And Robert Gibbs aboard Air Force One being asked the very same question, telling reporters that it could come at any moment, he says. But he also says that he doesn't know if that decision, if the announcement of the president's decision will come before or after the presidential runoff in Afghanistan.
That presidential runoff, as you know, John, set for November 7th. And President Obama then leaves for a trip to Asia days later. So those kind of -- those are two kind of bookends that everyone is keeping an eye on.
ROBERTS: And as Senator John Kerry has also taken a central position here in Afghanistan. Last week he was over there, helped to convince President Karzai to go into this runoff election.
BOLDUAN: Right.
ROBERTS: This morning he's getting involved in the debate over whether to send more troops. What's he saying about that?
BOLDUAN: Hey, of course, and it was very interesting as he just - as you indicated - just returned from Afghanistan where he played a key role in convincing President Hamid Karzai to agree to that presidential runoff, as we're talking about, and now Senator Kerry in a very major - as was being billed as a major speech yesterday, saying that he thinks that General Stanley McChrystal, the top commander on the ground in Afghanistan, saying he thinks his request for up to tens of thousands, possibly 40,000 additional troops is too far, too fast, Senator Kerry suggesting that General McChrystal's request is too ambitious when you look at the realities on the ground there. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Deploying additional troops wouldn't result in sustainable gains if the Afghan security civilian and governance capacity isn't there, and right now, as our generals will tell you, in many places - too many places - it isn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Senator Kerry there kind of taking a middle of the road kind of approach when he was kind of laying out what his thoughts are. A smaller counterinsurgency strategy, he thinks, would be good in Afghanistan, with the option of deploying troops along the way. Kind of an idea of triggering troops if needed when needed to get them over there quickly if they are needed, John.
ROBERTS: Perhaps we'll know in the next couple of weeks, Kate, which way the president is going to go on this.
BOLDUAN: Sure hope so.
ROBERTS: Sorry. Kate Bolduan for us this morning at the White House. Kate, thanks so much.
CHETRY: It's not just Afghanistan and health care on the minds of lawmakers. They're actually pressing a plan that would extend the very popular tax credit for first time homebuyers. Our Stephanie Elam's going to be joining us to break it down for you.
It's 17 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Twenty minutes after the hour.
Hey, pink houses, red houses, brick houses - whatever you want. If this homebuyer tax credit gets extended for first-time buyers, hopefully more people can get in the market.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That is true. And right now the discussion is how is this all going to come together?
So you've got a couple of plans you've got to take a look at here. We could see a vote in the Senate about it this week, but let's start off by taking a look at Harry Reid along with Max Baucus. They've got a plan to extend that $8,000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers to 2010. They would do this by looping it with the extension of unemployment benefits. This would be for first-time homebuyers closing before April 1 and they would get the full $8,000, then the value would decrease by $2,000 each following quarter after that and then it would expire at the end of the year. Keep in mind that this $8,000 tax credit is set to expire right now on November 30th.
Then, you look at the other plan that's out there, and this one come from Chris Dodd, who's a Democrat, and also Johnny Isakson, who's a Republican out of Georgia. So this one's more of a bipartisan plan and it's a little bit more generous. It extends the $8,000 tax credit through June of 2010 but instead of just looking at first-time homebuyers, this one expanded to all couples who are making $300,000 or less. Now, obviously, this whole plan has come under a bit of fire because it seems like there's some fraud - believe it or not - fraud involved in this. Taking a look at what the IRS is saying, 70,000 claims of potential fraud that they have found. I understand that's totaling about...
CHETRY: All people trying to claim the credit?
ELAM: Or who've claimed it or people who are under 18 claiming it. Yes. Those young, just, you know, go-getters buying homes. So it's totaling close to $480 million. But so far, about more than 1 million borrowers have actually applied and - and claimed nearly $8.5 billion, $13.6 billion has been allocated for this first-time homebuyer tax credit.
But we have to see what happens. We could see a vote on it this week but they're trying to get people more help out there. There's a lot of pressure on there to say the market is still not healthy, we need people out there buying homes so they're trying to push this through.
CHETRY: All right. Well, we'll see how it turns out. Thanks so much. Stephanie Elam "Minding Your Business" for us this morning.
ROBERTS: Still the latest on Northwest Airlines Flight 188, the pilots say they were distracted for an hour and 18 minutes because they had their laptops open in the cockpit going over crew schedules and they missed all of these attempts to contact them, whether it was over the radio or whether it was text messages that were showing up at the cockpit console.
Is it really possible to get that distracted that you have no idea where you are and fly past your destination? Well, our Deb Feyerick puts it to the test. She goes into the simulator this morning to find out just how distracted you can be.
It's 22 minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. You know, after learning the two Northwest pilots who overshot their landing by 150 miles were using their laptops and lost track of time you may be wondering how could that happen.
ROBERTS: Yes. I mean, any time that I ever flew an airplane, I had sweaty palms, you know? I always focus.
This morning, we're taking you inside the cockpit with the help of a flight simulator to see just what pilots deal with in flight. Our Deborah Feyerick has got this AM Original for you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The plane simulator we're in models a four-seat Cessna, significantly smaller than the Airbus A320 but the control panels are similar.
FEYERICK (on camera): How is a pilot alerted that it's time to land? What do they see? What do they - what are the indicators?
VINCENT DRISCOLL, FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, VAUGHN COLLEGE: Well, you're not alerted. Nobody is going to say to you it's - it's time for you to land.
FEYERICK (voice-over): Vincent Driscoll trains pilots at the Vaughn College of Aeronautics across New York's La Guardia Airport.
FEYERICK (on camera): Is it easy for a pilot to get distracted, to sort of become involved, to essentially stop flying the plane? DRISCOLL: Things can distract you. Weather can distract you, a mechanical problem onboard the airplane can distract you.
FEYERICK (voice-over): In the case of Northwest Flight 188, it was not turbulence or a heavy cloud cover. The distraction appears to have been laptop computers both pilots were using, they say, to check new crew schedules in place as a result of the Northwest/Delta merger.
FEYERICK (on camera): When you're flying, how often are you - is somebody communicating to you when you're up in the air?
DRISCOLL: You are responsible for your - with your own navigation, OK? ATC, what they're doing is monitoring you and other aircraft around you. They wouldn't navigate for you. When it's busy they expect (ph) you to be on certain airways.
FEYERICK (voice-over): ATC or air traffic control anxiously tried reaching the pilots for more than an hour and 15 minutes. That's roughly 30 percent of the Northwest flight from San Diego to Minneapolis, an extremely long time to maintain radio silence, especially since controllers alert pilots to switch radio frequencies roughly every 10 to 15 minutes as the place crosses into new zones or sectors.
DRISCOLL: Oh, they'll say OK, radar (ph) contact, positive identification, you go on your merry way. And when you get there beyond his sector, he's going to hand you over to another sector.
FEYERICK: According to the NTSB, the pilots say they heard radio conversation but did not specifically listen to what was being said.
FEYERICK (on camera): For a plane to overshoot an airport, does - does that happen a lot? We're sitting (ph) 150 miles, we're talking what? About 10, 15 minutes, maybe?
DRISCOLL: It just seems like a lot, when (ph) you say 10, 15 minutes and then you talk about 150 nautical miles or so. It is really not in terms of - of flying.
FEYERICK (voice-over): Driscoll, a former pilot, says the cockpit is generally quiet, though some busier sectors have more radio chatter. Also, it's easy to tune into the wrong frequency by a single digit.
FEYERICK (on camera): What's the lesson? That it's just - that it's easy to happen?
DRISCOLL: We're human beings and things happen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: Now, yes, they are human beings but the stakes are significantly higher, and according to the airline they were violating company policy by using those laptops on the flight deck.
So you've got two things going on. They missed the airport by 10 minutes, but they were out of communication for an hour and 15 minutes, and that's a really big deal because they would have had to speak to 10 different people just in that small segment and they weren't. That's the problem.
CHETRY: But the other thing that's interesting is he said that it is - it could happen easily, that you could get that distracted?
FEYERICK: Absolutely. Like anybody else. You know, when you're driving - think about it, you're driving. You know exactly where you're going and then there's a sign and you just - you fly right by it. Now, me, I'm in the car by myself. I don't have 150 people in the back of my car.
CHETRY: Very true.
FEYERICK: For a good reason.
ROBERTS: Tell me (ph), it's one thing - it's one thing to drive by a sign and it's another thing to go an hour and 18 minutes without talking to anybody and then fly past an entire city.
FEYERICK: The issue is distraction.
ROBERTS: Yes.
CHETRY: It's scary.
FEYERICK: It's very scary. Absolutely.
CHETRY: Deb, thank you.
FEYERICK: Of course:
ROBERTS: All right. It's coming up on the half hour now and checking our top stories this Tuesday morning. A member of the State Department and a former Marine Corps captain becomes the first US official known to resign over the war in Afghanistan.
Matthew Hoh told "The Washington Post," "I'm not some peacenik pot-smoking hippie who wants everyone to be in love," but he says the war is making the insurgency worse, adding the United States is asking its troops to die in Afghanistan for what is essentially a far-off civil war.
Bruce Springsteen cancels his show in Kansas City after his cousin, a road crew member, was found dead in his hotel room. Police are investigating but do not suspect foul play. The venue says the tickets will be refunded.
And NASA has all eyes on the sky this morning. In 90 minutes' time, a four-hour window opens for a test flight of its Ares 1-X rocket. It's the biggest rocket in the world. If successful, the unmanned launch could start the next generation of space travel. NASA's shuttle program is due to shut down next September -- Kiran.
CHETRY: John, thanks. Well, if they just listen, then I wouldn't have to yell. That's what a lot of parents will tell you about why they raise their voice to their children sometimes. Now these same parents also don't believe in spanking their kids many times. You know, there is a great article about it, and it's actually one of the most e-mailed on "The New York Times" Web site. And it noted, quote, "Many in today's pregnancy-flaunting, soccer-cheering, organic-snack-proffering generation of parents would never spank their children. We congratulate our toddlers for blowing their nose. We spend hours teaching our offspring how to understand their feelings. But, incongruously and with regularity, this is a generation that yells.
Well, here live to talk about it with us, clinical psychologist Jeff Gardier and Amy Wilson. She's a mom of three, and also the author of "Motherload." Actually, that's a play that's happening right now. And you are also writing a book called...
AMY WILSON, AUTHOR, "WHEN DID I GET LIKE THIS?": "When Did I Get Like This?"
CHETRY: "When Did I Get Like This?", which is a question we often ourselves as mother of young children. You have also 7, 5 and a 2-year-old.
WILSON: That's right.
CHETRY: Do you yell?
WILSON: Yes, I try not to. I gave it up for Lent this past spring. And it didn't work, but I did sort of -- I did sort of called attention to when I yell. And there are sort of triggers in each family, I think, times and circumstances and to address those circumstances and try to lessen the things that make you yell. Then there are occasions of sin as Catholics call them.
CHETRY: Well, you're also -- you are a mom who doesn't think that spanking is a good way to discipline, right?
WILSON: I think it's infective, it's harmful. I think the literature is pretty clear on that, right?
DR. JEFF GARDERE, AUTHOR OF BOOKS ON LOVE AND PARENTING: Absolutely.
WILSON: And yelling, I think, it's sort of less clear, and I think it's much more of a gray area.
What are you yelling? How often are you yelling? What is the circumstance if they are running out into the street, it's OK to yell. If it's, "I wish you had never been born," that's not OK to yell. So I think there's a lot of gray area.
CHETRY: Yes, and it is interesting, Dr. Gardere, because we -- as we pointed out in that, I love that little snippet about, you know, we are buying organic food and everyone is cheering on their toddlers, everyone is talking about feelings, but at the same time, this is a generation who shuns spanking...
GARDERE: Yes.
CHETRY: ...but is very quick to raise their voice at their kids. Has that changed over the years?
GARDERE: I think we always yelled. But I think now that there isn't that option where we let loose with the spanking anymore so revert more to the yelling. There is more frustration now. And we let that through with the yelling, and it's not a healthy thing. I think yelling is the new spanking. And as you have said, Amy, I think it becomes a real issue when we do it all the time, because then we find it really isn't working. The kids start yawning or even worse, the kids start getting affected by it and then they start yelling at their friends.
CHETRY: Yes. It is an interesting thing. You know, we also talk about the fact that it is -- whether or not, it's ineffective parenting tool.
What are some things that actually work for you, Amy, with three little kids and you know they like to fight each other. And oftentimes they don't listen.
WILSON: They don't listen. And when they are getting louder for you to come in and say, hey, let's talk about this. It's not always -- something that's useful or possible. But I have found that when I can keep my own cool, and talk in actually a lower voice when I want to yell, I instead talk in a lower voice, you know, I've asked you to do this a few times, I know you know what you need do. I need you go do it. Instead of yelling, I find that at least is effective and at least I haven't lost my temper.
GARDERE: And you have to be consistent with it, too. A lot of people say...
CHETRY: That's the hard part.
GARDERE: Yes, the time-outs don't work, taking things away from your kids. Those things do work. It's just that our kids learn how to blackmail us and they learn how to manipulate us and we give up. And that's the point, we can't give up. But the important thing is, we yell and it's OK that we do that. We just have to try to do it less.
CHETRY: So let me ask you a couple of things in terms of parenting, because, you know, you are a professional that deals with this, and he has four kids.
GARDERE: And I have four kids. I'm father goose. Yes.
CHETRY: But let me ask you, what is the consensus among experts, parenting experts, and psychologists about spanking?
GARDERE: Well, they are saying in every study has shown practically that when you spank your kids, they end up having lower IQs. Why? Well, quite simply, you are not working out issues with them. You are not teaching them how to work out their conflicts. You've taken the easy way out, which is the spanking. So you want to show them how to regulate moods.
CHETRY: And it also says that -- I guess that it triggers a type of stress reaction that may get in the way of learning. But we are talking about...
GARDERE: Absolutely.
CHETRY: ... a lot of spanking over many years or the occasional swat on the bottom if they are not doing something right?
GARDERE: We prefer as experts that you're not even swatting your kids. But the reality is we do. Just like the reality is that we do yell and we want to do less of that. So if you find yourself spanking over a period of time, and you are doing it more and more and more, quite honestly, it's not working because you have to keep doing it.
So, look, you can have strong discipline with your kids. But, again, it's about the consistency and it's about being a strong leader in your family as the parent.
CHETRY: A few of the interesting things that you talked about, Amy, as well is also just like -- when you are going through a tough time or a stressful time, your reaction tends to be different. And that's also, obviously, not what we are supposed to do in terms of consistency. But it's interesting, because when they asked some parents, they also said that the lengths of time that they spent with their kids, also increased the chance that they were going to be yelling at them. The kids were at school or if they are in other places, and you have quality time, whereas, I mean, rainy weekend.
WILSON: Right. A rainy weekend.
(CROSSTALK)
CHETRY: With nowhere to go.
WILSON: That can be a problem.
CHETRY: What do you do?
GARDERE: And I think that's why moms yell more than dads. We find dads don't yell as much, because they are not with the kids as much. You guys have the stressors on that.
CHETRY: Are you the bad guy in your house?
WILSON: Yes, because I think my husband, who works -- who works a lot, has long hours, he is the one who can be absent, and I can say wait until your father gets home and that's sort of enough. You know, he comes home and do this, and that's enough.
GARDERE: Wait until your father gets home.
You know, it's really interesting. My wife works, too. My last nerve. We won't go there. What do you think, John?
ROBERTS: I am so far past all of that stuff. My youngest is 18. It's like -- liberation.
CHETRY: There you go.
GARDERE: See? And he is not yelling.
CHETRY: No.
GARDERE: He's singing.
CHETRY: Of course. Hey, you got through it, though.
But one quick thing about it before we leave is it's also detrimental in terms of the child, in terms of stress if you are -- if there is -- if it's a household or voices are raised, or do we just get used to it? Some of my friends say we are an Italian family. Everyone is yelling across the table. That's just our baseline, you know. You know we're just communicating.
GARDERE: That's yelling love. And that's OK. We actually talked about this, you know, back, you know in the greenroom, that I actually have patients who come in -- an exact patient who came in and her whole complaint was that her mother yelled at her her whole life and that kept her from being the person she really wanted to be as an adult. And so we had to work through those issues with her and actually brought her mom in, and the mom started yelling in the session. And I was like -- I get it, I get it. So we have to try to yell a little bit less because it can be deleterious to our kids.
CHETRY: All right. Well, I want to thank both of you for being with us this morning.
Amy Wilson and Jeff Gardere, great to see you.
GARDERE: Always a pleasure. Thank you.
CHETRY: So we want to know what you think also. What do you think? Is shouting the new spanking? And really how do you get your kids to listen. Let us now. Our blog, CNN.com/AMFIX - John.
ROBERTS: Well, with the epidemic of H1N1 swine flu spreading across the country, we were promised 120 (ph) doses of the vaccine by this time. There's only about a tenth of that amount. So where is the vaccine? What is taking so long? And what about the fact that it might get here too late to really do any good? We are looking into those questions. Coming right up.
It's 37 1/2 minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning at 20 minutes to the top of the hour. With 46 states now reporting widespread swine flu activity and the president declaring an H1N1 national emergency, maybe you've decided now is the time to get a vaccine.
Well, get in line, literally. Our Mary Snow shows you why finding a shot to protect you from the swine flu has unexpectedly become a real pain.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John and Kiran, so what's behind the delay in producing the H1N1 vaccine? Health officials say the process hinges on the way the vaccines are made.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): With lines like this one in Salt Lake City, it's clear there is a demand for H1N1 vaccines. But where are they? Health officials say a delay in vaccine production comes down to a 50- year-old technology that relies on eggs.
DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: It's a tried and true method but it's not perfectly predictable. Some viruses grow quickly in eggs. Some don't grow as well. And what happened with this year's H1N1 vaccine is that several of the manufacturers had challenges in getting a lot of the virus, the vaccine virus, out of those eggs. And so we have a delay.
SNOW: That delay doesn't surprise Dan Adams, who told us this back in July.
DAN ADAMS, CEO, PROTEIN SCIENCES: No matter what you think, the way that the major pharmaceutical companies make flu vaccines is not going to solve a real pandemic problem. It takes too long to get there.
SNOW: Adams is the CEO of biotech Protein Sciences and uses insect cells and not eggs to make vaccines. The company doesn't yet have a license to make H1N1 vaccines. But his company isn't the only one using different technology.
ALAN SHAW, CEO, VAXINNATE: This is the equivalent of about 100,000 eggs.
SNOW: Alan Shaw's biotech firm Vaccinate uses proteins and bacteria.
(on camera): Why is it so much faster?
SHAW: E. Coli double every 20 minutes. A hen will lay an egg once a day roughly.
SNOW: This company is applying for federal money, but the government has already invested in others, including Protein Sciences, as it seeks alternatives to using eggs.
Critics ask should the government have invested in alternative technologies earlier? SCHUCHAT: We are optimistic that over the years ahead some of these new technologies will bear fruit, but none of them were ready for this pandemic. It's just a sad truth that the pandemic came too early basically.
SNOW: Currently, the government has contracts for H1N1 vaccines with five companies, all of which make the vaccine the same way.
ANDREW PEKOSZ, JONHS HOPKINS BLOOMBERG SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: And since growing the virus in eggs is the only FDA-approved means of generating the vaccine, that really becomes our major stumbling block right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: MedImmune is having less difficulty with its nasal spray vaccine but it is not for everyone. It's approved for ages 2 to 49 who don't have underlying illnesses. It's not recommended, though, for pregnant women because it contains a live virus -- John and Kiran.
ROBERTS: Mary Snow for us this morning. Mary, thanks.
CHETRY: We will have to see what's going to be -- you know, they're pretty sure it's safe, but in terms of how easy it is to prepare and to get it ready for flu season, I mean, it's turning into a big challenge this season.
ROBERTS: Yes. They hope it might be safer, but where the heck is it?
CHETRY: Right. Exactly.
Well, still ahead, rain is marching east. You can expect some travel delays. Our Rob Marciano tracking extreme weather for us. He's going to let us know what we can expect today weather-wise in just a moment.
It's 43 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. A live look at Detroit today. Thanks to our friends at WXYZ. Fifty-two degrees right now, going up to a high of just 60 and mostly cloudy out there today.
CHETRY: And Rob Marciano is joining us right now with in the look at the weather. So, it looks like we could be in for some storms headed East. Possibly some flight delays in our future.
ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yeah. They started with the rain we talked about in Texas and Louisiana yesterday. It is now on the move just a little bit. And it is beginning to spread out. So Dallas, you are starting to see the rain taper off. Southwest Louisiana, you are out of it, too. Lake Charles over five inches of rain yesterday. Two of which fell in just a half hour's time. So this is -- got a lot of moisture content.
At New Orleans will see some rain. Atlanta, you got some -- maybe rainfall in the -- along the range of two to three inches later on today and certainly this area has been fairly saturated the past several weeks. And now the rainfall beginning to make its way into New York City. So, certainly that's going to cause some problems across the Metropolitan Airports. D.C. as well. Philly, probably see 30 to an hour -- 30 to 60-minute delays. Maybe longer than that, actually.
Atlanta, Charlotte, and San Francisco, seeing similar amounts. As far as what else we have going on, pretty potent storm system moving into the West Coast right now. We had offshore winds for the Santa Anna yesterday. Now, they're going onshore, but they're going to be so strong that that's going to create some fire dangers as well.
And at the higher elevations, we're looking at a fair amount of snow. Winter storm warnings have been posted. And Denver under a winter storm warning for the first time this year. 8 to 16 inches possible in the mountains, and I think, in Denver, we'll probably see anywhere from 4 to 8 inches and we are not even at Halloween. So, get your snow blowers out there in the high country.
CHETRY: Wow. 16 inches possibly?
ROBERTS: Based may open early this year.
CHETRY: There you go. They're going upside.
ROBERTS: Rob, I think this demands a personal investigation.
MARCIANO: Yes. Investigative reporting at its finest. I will volunteer.
ROBERTS: There you go. All right. Rob, thanks so much.
So in this debate over health care every once in a while, things get a little whimsical. Wait until you see what Jeanne Moos discovered. Stay with us. 48 minutes after the hour.
ROBERTS: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. It wasn't Annie but the health care debate taking a musical turn in insurance industry meeting in Washington. But, protesters singing out about the public option. Here is Jeanne Moos this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Back then there was the famous Annie. And today there is "public option Annie" There is a name for the protests that took place at this insurance lobby conference.
UNKNOWN MALE: It's technically called the grill and musical.
MOOS: Suddenly audience members started singing They were members of the satirical group Billionaires for Wealthcare. The group has clever little slogans like "let them eat Advil."
Unlike a (INAUDIBLE), security didn't sniff out the five singers and six camera people who infiltrated the insurance event.
UNKNOWN MALE: Anybody can go to a town hall and just yell and scream and throw a tantrum. But, we are trying a new dynamic, new paradigm, with positive energy. To make people smile.
MOOS: A similar guerilla musical broke out last month at a whole foods store in Oakland, California. Protesters were mad at whole foods CEO John Mackey for questioning whether people should have an intrinsic right to health care. So, they took the 1982 hit "Mickey" and turned it into "Mackey."
But the guerilla musical that got rave reviews wasn't a protest. Imagine you are in the produce aisle when this production breaks out.
And no more shoppers were dumfounded. At least one guy kept going through the broccoli. The group that staged this is called Improv Everywhere. Most famous some time over 200 participants simply froze in Grand Central Station and now frozen has given way to fresh fruits.
When is the last time you heard applause in a produce aisle? Who cares about squeezing the Charmin?
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHETRY: And that were happened to my grocery store.
ROBERTS: There was the time that Zain Verjee appeared in the produce department.
CHETRY: That's right. Made everybody very hungry for watermelon, right. Still ahead, we are going to get the latest on a woman who says she was given a ticket while she was driving and was given a ticket for not speaking English. Is that really a law on the federal books? 54 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. Dead celebrities who are raking in the cash, not just Michael Jackson. We will show you how when it comes to making millions, being dead is an asset -- Kiran.
CHETRY: John, thanks. It is 57 minutes past the hour. We have a follow-up now on a story we first told you about here on AMERICAN MORNING about a Hispanic woman who got a ticket for not speaking English. After the outrage, the charge was dismissed, but the bizarre thing is, this is the law in Dallas. And as our Ed Lavandera explains, drivers have to speak English.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There it is, in writing, a ticket for being a nonenglish-speaking driver. A $204 fine. Ernestina Mondragon guided about three weeks ago from a rookie police officer with the Dallas Police Department. She was also ticketed for making an illegal U-turn and not having her driver's license with her.
ERNESTINA MONDRAGON, TICKETED DRIVER: I felt humiliated, she says. My self-esteem hit the floor. I felt like I had been discriminated against. Mondragon has lived legally in the United States since 1980. She does speak a little English but says she struggled to learn the language. Her case is not an isolated incident.
Dallas police officials say that they found 38 other tickets issued for not speaking English in the last three years. All those tickets are being dismissed and the fines will be reimbursed. The police chief has launched the investigation into the officers who wrote the tickets and the supervisors who approved the work.
DAVID KUNKLE, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: I apologize to the Spanish- speaking Hispanic community. It's particularly disappointing for a city like Dallas because we are very, very diverse.
LAVANDERA: There is a federal law that requires drivers of commercial vehicles like trucks, limos, and taxicabs, to speak English, but Dallas police say none of the tickets were issued to commercial drivers. Chief David Kunkle says as the department has switched over to an electronic citation system, the non-English- speaking driver charged appeared in a dropdown menu. He believes officers thought it applied to people like Ernestina Mondragon. But that explanation isn't enough for critics of the Dallas police department.
HECTOR FLORES, LULAC: But when it happens 39 times, then there's something a little bit more serious that's inherent in law enforcement in Dallas.
LAVANDERA: Ernestina Mondragon says that the stress of receiving those traffic tickets put her in the hospital for three days. Her attorney says they want the Dallas police department to reimburse them for the cost of those medical bills which totaled more than $5,000.
Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHETRY: All right. So, the 39 people are going to be getting some checks in the mail, I guess.
ROBERTS: We will see if somebody else seeks, you know, recompense from the government there in Dallas as well.
CHETRY: So again, it's on the books for commercial drivers, not for people just driving their cars.
