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Fallen Soldiers, Agents Return; Raid on Radical Islamic Group; Recession Turnaround?; Hospitals and H1N1

Aired October 29, 2009 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thanks, Alina and Kiran. Here's what is on tap today. We're working on hard in the NEWSROOM.

Honoring those who made the ultimate sacrifice. President Obama on hand to meet a plane carrying Americans killed in Afghanistan. We'll take you there.

Also, the credit card company jacked up their monthly percent by 250 percent, their monthly payment, in fact. But they got a better deal after we showed their story here on CNN. How you can get results as well.

And should aluminum baseball bats come with a warning? One jury thinks so, awarding a family $850,000. What do you think? You can join our blog on that one.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins. It is Thursday, October 29th, and you are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

A new plan and more debate. Now that's what we can expect when House Democrats put forth their bill to reform health care. House leaders unveil it next hour. How closely does it resemble the one being debated in the Senate? We'll get a preview of it for you in just a little bit later on this hour.

But first, President Obama attending a solemn ceremony in the early morning hours. The president met the plane carrying 18 Americans killed in Afghanistan this week. The president's trip to Dover Air Force Base, Delaware comes as he nears a decision on troop levels in the Afghan war.

CNN's Dan Lothian was at Dover this morning and is joining us now live from the White House.

Dan, quite a solemn scene, as you would imagine, very early this morning.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It really was a solemn scene. And you know this is something I'm told by a senior administration official that the president has wanted to do for some time. So they began planning for this particular trip on Tuesday and then made the call yesterday at noon.

And this, of course, is a president who's always talked about the human cost of war. And in fact just yesterday Robert Gibbs, at his press briefing, was talking about how one of the hardest things that Mr. Obama has to do is to sign the condolence letters to the relatives, the loved ones of their sons or daughters who have died either in Afghanistan, Iraq, or elsewhere overseas.

Now this morning the president wasn't just signing a letter, but going in person to accept the bodies of 18 Americans who were returning from overseas and also meet with the loved ones there. Now most of these bodies were kept away from the cameras per family request, but one of them, Sergeant Dale Griffin -- we had a chance to see his remains, his flag-draped remains, as they were removed from that cargo plane.

Fifteen of the dead were U.S. troops but three of those who returned, the bodies that were returned, were DEA agents. They were killed in that helicopter crash on Monday in Afghanistan. They were returning from a firefight with insurgents who were believed to be involved in drug trafficking.

And now I should point out that this is not the first time that a U.S. president has gone to Dover to review or accept the bodies of, you know, anyone coming back from overseas, Americans coming from overseas. Back in 1996, though, was the last time that it happened.

The former president Bill Clinton went out there when Ron Brown, his commerce secretary, his body was returned along with other victims of an airplane crash. Heidi?

COLLINS: And Dan, obviously, appropriate here to say how much we all appreciate the service of those that were lost in both of these wars. Meantime, should probably also talk about what's going to be happening because I know that there will be another meeting regarding troop levels in Afghanistan. The president will be talking with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, yes?

LOTHIAN: That's right. The Joint Chiefs. He will be having another assessment. They're looking at, you know, Afghanistan and Pakistan. They've had about a half dozen high-level meetings in the situation room here at the White House over the past few weeks.

And again, the president is getting closer, we are told, according to senior administrations, to -- officials to making that decision, but no word yet on when that will happen. Simply, officials here at the White House telling us that a decision will be made in a number of weeks.

But, yes, the president meeting again with the Joint Chiefs here at the White House tomorrow.

COLLINS: All right, very good, Dan Lothian from the White House this morning. Thank you, Dan.

This has been a devastating week for U.S. troops in Afghanistan. We have seen 22 people killed since Sunday, making this the deadliest month for U.S. troops there since action began back in 2001. Eleven of those died in helicopter crashes, 56 are dead this month, raising the toll total to 278 for the year. Right now, the U.S. has about 65,000 troops there. Nearly half of them are part of NATO's international security force. President Obama is considering whether to send as many as 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan as part of the new strategy.

The United Nations is ordering all non-essential employees out of Afghanistan. The move comes one day after the deadly Taliban attack on a guesthouse in Kabul. We told you about it here. Five U.N. workers died in that attack, including one American. An armed contractor who was inside the guesthouse talked about the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Can you describe the scene inside? And what...

JOHN TURNER, DEFENSE DEPARTMENT CONTRACTOR: Fire. You know, I saw -- I heard small arms fire at the beginning and then almost immediately they lobbed a grenade in and the fire started. The U.N. guards came down, locking all the doors.

We helped get as many people out the back as possible. They went out the front to return fire. And if you look at the building, you can see those are exit wounds in the walls. So those -- that was the U.N. firing out to keep them from getting in. One suicide bomber got in. And I think one of the girls that was trying to escape was caught in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He also said security forces outside the compound seemed slow to respond to the gunfire, coming to their aid an hour into a two-hour firefight.

A shoot-out with federal agents ends with the death of a radical Islamic group's leader in Dearborn, Michigan. Five other members of that group are due in a Detroit courtroom today. They face a host of federal charges.

CNN's Candiotti -- Susan Candiotti has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): FBI agents hit two locations trying to round up about a dozen men said to be heavily armed. Prosecutors say the ringleader, an imam, directed a local wing of a radical fundamentalist Islamic group bent on setting up a separatist state here in the U.S.

Inside this warehouse, authorities say the alleged ringleader refused to surrender, fired his weapon. There was an exchange of gunfire and 53-year-old Luqman Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was killed. So was an FBI dog.

Authorities say Abdullah was the imam at a Detroit mosque where he preached an offensive jihad, including violence against the government and law enforcement. A criminal complaint says he repeatedly told three confidential informants he would never been taken alive, saying, "If they're coming to get me, I'll just strap a bomb on and blow up everybody."

The criminal complaint says the group had target practice in a mosque basement, blowing holes in cement walls. But they're not arrested for any of that. They're charged with conspiracy to fence stolen goods, including laptops and TVs, illegal firearm sales, and tampering with motor vehicle I.D. numbers.

An FBI complaint says they belong to a nationwide group called UMMAH, most African-Americans, some of whom converted to Islam while in prison. UMMAH is led by this man, Jamil Abdullah Alamin, formally known as H. Rap Brown, a '60s radical and former member of the Black Panthers who once said violence was for blacks, as American as cherry pie.

He is currently serving a life sentence in Colorado's super max prison for killing two Georgia police officers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And Susan Candiotti is joining us live from Detroit with more on this.

Susan, are all of the defendants in custody now?

CANDIOTTI: No, they're not, Heidi. Three are still at large. The FBI says they're still looking for them. And this afternoon, there is a detention hearing for several others and they will be asking for no bond, the FBI.

COLLINS: Well, what about any reaction that might be coming in from some of the local Muslim leader there is?

CANDIOTTI: Well, at least one of them told one of our CNN affiliates that he knew the alleged ringleader to be a nice man, but another said he really hasn't had any contact with him for many, many years. The FBI says this is not considered to be a main street group -- mainstream group and that the FBI special agent in charge here in Detroit did reach out to the local Muslim leaders during the course of this operation, during the arrest yesterday, rather, and let them know what was going on, because they said that they have a very good relationship with these leaders and they want to keep it that way.

COLLINS: All right. We'll continue to follow that story. Dearborn, Michigan this morning, Susan Candiotti. Thank you, Susan.

A 15-year-old gang rape victim is now out of the hospital as authorities move forward in their investigation. Richmond, California police have three juveniles and two adults in custody in connection with the alleged rape on a high school campus.

Police say the suspects will face several felony charges in connection with the rape and would face the possibility of life in prison if convicted. Students, teachers, and area residents took part in a news conference at Richmond High School yesterday to stand up for the victim and demand accountability.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMI BAKER, RICHMOND HIGH SCHOOL JUNIOR: I look outside of the gym and I saw 12 to 15 guys sitting there with no IDs. The officers not only did they not check the IDs of those students or men sitting outside of our campus, but the security officers who were employed here did no job checking either. The assistant principal looked outside and actually saw those men and did nothing about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Police have said as many as 10 people were involved in the assault in the dimly lit back alley while another 10 watched without calling 911 to report it. More arrests are expected in this case.

Just out now. The first sign of economic growth in more than a year, but is it the start of a trend or a one-shot wonder?

ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I'm Rob Marciano in the CNN Severe Weather. Not one, not two, but three feet of snow has fallen in Colorado and it's still going. Plus, severe weather across the plains. Weather is coming up when the CNN NEWSROOM comes right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: A sign of economic growth this morning. The government reports the Gross Domestic Product was up for the third quarter. It's the first increase in more than a year.

CNN's Christine Romans is joining us now from New York with some perspective on all of this.

So was what does this say then about the state of the economy? Can we draw any conclusions from it?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: This means that the economy, Heidi, is growing. It is growing. And that is a market turnaround from four consecutive quarters where the economy, the once- mighty American economy, was actually shrinking.

And when an economy shrinks, we all feel it. We feel it because people shop less, we lose jobs. It's something that is felt from top to bottom. Now you can see on the far right of that, GDP, that is the measure of the strength of the economy, and the economy actually grew in the quarter.

A couple of important things here. It grew because of Cash for Clunkers, it grew because of purchases of homes backed by that tax credit.

COLLINS: Yes.

ROMANS: It grew because the government was aggressively in there, juicing the economy. People will tell you, supporters of the stimulus will tell you, this is evidence that all that money we're pumping into the economy is working and that it helped reversed four very dangerous declines in economic output.

A period where the economy was actually shrinking, the stimulus has managed to blend, and now we have -- stimulus and a lot of other things, I will point out, has managed to put the economy back into gear, at least, moving forward.

The question is, how long does that last?

COLLINS: Exactly.

ROMANS: Is it truly a recovery if it is simply spurred on by taxpayer borrowing and by spending in the stimulus and the like? I mean that can't last forever. The hope is...

COLLINS: Well, especially when we talk about the future and deficit and so forth.

ROMANS: The hope is that you get the economy that gets on the mend and then it can heal itself and then you have the economy actually growing without a lot of government support and then that is how you start, hopefully, eventually, creating jobs. But there's really a disconnect here. I mean, people, I'm sure, Heidi, are seeing this and going, what economy is growing?

COLLINS: Yes.

ROMANS: My economy is not growing.

COLLINS: Well, that's just it, because even though you look at the numbers and if you try really hard to understand them and what they mean doesn't really change the way you feel as a consumer.

ROMANS: And, you know, a lot of people are going to look at this and say, look, this is more evidence that the -- that the recession is ending. This is the first real, hard evidence that the recession is ending. But we still have an unemployment rate that's marching towards 10 percent.

We still have millions of homes that will be foreclosed on this year. So I think it's incredibly important to realize that you've got this economic data that's starting to turn around and tell us that something is starting to move in the right direction in the economy. But on the other hand, people aren't feeling it yet, and that is a lag that is just very apparent and is expected to continue here.

I mean, we're looking at perhaps a 10 percent unemployment rate by some time next year. And even Christina Romer, who is one of the president's advisers on the stimulus and on the economy, she has said that at some point, the stimulus will peter out.

COLLINS: Yes. Yes. All right, well, we're going to continue to watch it and make sure that we give everybody the best perspective that we can. And we appreciate it from you.

ROMANS: Sure.

COLLINS: Christine Romans, thank you.

ROMANS: You're welcome.

COLLINS: All right. So the snow severe weather center today. Rob Marciano, there you are.

MARCIANO: Hey.

COLLINS: The lights are on. Talking about more and more -- more than we expected, because I know we were talking about it yesterday, too.

MARCIANO: About what we thought, but it's still going on. And early this morning, I was bragging about how the Denver airport didn't shut down yesterday. There were a few delays. And I just checked the delay chart and Denver International Airport clocking in with four- hour delays, and right now. So be aware of that if you are flying into Denver. It is still snowing there.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: A little bit of everything today.

MARCIANO: Yes, it's a big one.

COLLINS: All right, Rob. We'll keep coming back to you. Thank you.

MARCIANO: You bet.

COLLINS: Dealing with the H1N1 flu virus. We're taking a look at what hospitals are doing right now to get ready for even more patients.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Time for a look at some of the top stories we're following this morning.

In about an hour from now, we expect to hear all about how Democrats in the House plan to overhaul health care. House leaders will unveil their version of the bill at around 10:30 Eastern. We'll bring that to you live. But first, we'll give you a look at it in just a few minutes.

Meanwhile, a Montana jury says baseball players aren't being adequately warned about the dangerous of aluminum bats. They ruled against the maker of Louisville slugger bats in the case of a teenage player who was killed by a batted ball.

The family of Brandon Patch was awarded $850,000 and could get even more in punitive damages. He was killed in 2003 when a ball hit him in the head. And we are asking what you think about this aluminum bat lawsuit that we've been telling you about. Want to know what you think about it on our blog this morning. As you know, you can always go to CNN.com/heidi.

Go ahead and tell us what you think. You can read a little bit more about the story first and let us know what you think. Then we will let you know what everyone's saying about it. We'll read some of those responses on the air.

Also the effects of the H1N1 flu. Hospitals are already dealing with an influx of patients as you probably know.

CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is in Boston to find out how they're handling some of the most vulnerable patients.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, it seems like we've been hearing the same advice now for months about what to do if your kid develop flu-like symptoms. What we're hearing over and over again is your kid should probably stay at home.

But there are some kids that get sicker, some kids who have more serious problems. Who are they? I wanted to find out. I went to Boston Children's to get some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA (on camera): So you got to put on the gown, the mask. There's still, obviously, a lot of concern here, and we don't know exactly for sure that this is H1N1.

(voice-over): Children's Hospital Boston. Because of the H1N1 virus, this hospital is as busy as it's ever been. And many of the kids look like Nate.

(on camera): So we'll meet the child. The child has symptoms that it seems like all kids get.

DR. ANNE STACK, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL BOSTON: That's right. All kids get. And the reason, specifically, that this child came to the emergency department was because he was dehydrated, significantly dehydrated. And his name is Nate.

GUPTA: Nate. All right.

NATE, PATIENT AT CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Dad? Hi.

GUPTA: Hey, Nate. How you feeling?

So when someone like Nate comes here, what do you do? What are you thinking about as a doctor?

STACK: So our first thoughts are to make him feel better. Obviously, make him comfortable. Give him something to control his fever if he has high fever and in his case, he wasn't able to take anything orally, so we were able to give him some rectal Tylenol to make him feel better.

GUPTA (voice-over): Nate's been diagnosed with H1N1, but is sent home just a few hours later. There's little the hospital can do for him than advise rest and to stay hydrated.

(on camera): Make no mistake, there is a worst-case scenario in all this. Patients, kids, can get very sick and even die, which is why we're here in the intensive care unit.

Take a look at this X-ray over here. This is really where it gets bad. I mean this area in here is the lungs. They should be black, representing normal air, but instead they're all white, sort of filled with inflammatory fluid that makes it hard for a child to breathe. Makes it hard for a child to get enough oxygen, to ventilate well.

That is a real problem and that's when they might end up on a machine like this, sort of a state-of-the-art ventilator, giving 900 breaths per minute. You can see it's being done on a mannequin here, but this is the kind of technology that's happening at Boston Children's Hospital, preparing for the sickest patients of all.

(voice-over): So ICUs are ramping up technology. But back in the emergency room, what they need is simply more beds.

(on camera): This is sort of interesting. What we're looking at here is what might happen if there's an overload situation. The hospital's over here, but patients might actually be shuffled across to this office building to go into a conference room, an ultimate care site, if the hospital starts to get overloaded.

It's fascinating, but they would actually flip this room over within a day or two to make room for extra kids if they simply get overloaded.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: And Heidi, I can tell you, what's happening at Boston Children's Hospital is happening at hospitals all around the country. They are potentially bracing for an influx of lots of patients and sick ones at that. And also, some of the technology that you just saw in the intensive care unit, while it's available, the good news is, for the vast majority of kids, it's never going to be necessary.

Heidi, back to you.

COLLINS: All right, Sanjay. Thank you.

Well, the House health care bill, does it include a public option or an out -- I can't even say it, opt-out clause. We've been talking a lot about that, state by state, as you know. Well, how much will it cost on top of all that? We're going to take a peek before the unveiling later on today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: On Wall Street now, the big focus today is the health of the economy, as Christine Romans just told us a few minutes ago. The economy actually grew last quarter. Talking about GDP. For the first time in more than a year.

Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange now as that opening bell rings. Telling us how investors are going to react to all of this news.

Hi there, Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Heidi. Investors liked what they heard an hour ago.

COLLINS: Sure.

LISOVICZ: This report provides the strongest signal yet that the recession may be finally over. The U.S. economy grew over the past three months at the fastest pace in two years. One big reason why, of course, with all that stimulus dough from Uncle Sam. Cash for Clunkers and the first-time home buyer tax credit translated into free money. It did what it was supposed to do. Prompt us to spend on cars and homes. That jump in spending is also playing out in the earnings of some big consumer products companies.

Procter & Gamble, the big of all said its quarterly profit fell, but it's optimistic about sales for the rest of the year. The maker of Tide, Pampers, and Pantene hair products. Well, right now it's seeing its shares rise for 4.5 percent. Rival Colgate-Palmolive said its quarterly profit increase nearly 20 percent and Kellogg's profit rose, too.

But profits for big oil are getting squeezed. ExxonMobil's net fell nearly 70 percent. Still, it made $4.7 billion in three months. The world's biggest publicly traded company took a hit, of course, because of lower oil prices. Last quarter, oil was about $50 less per barrel than a year ago.

That GDP report sending stocks higher. The Dow right now is up better than half a percent. The NASDAQ is up nearly one percent.

Finally, Heidi, let's go back in time. It was called Black Tuesday 80 years ago. On October 29th, 1929, the stock market crashed. The Dow Industrials plunged nearly 12 percent after swooning the same amount the day before a cataclysmic event that preceded the Great Depression. Twelve percent today is the equivalent of more than 1,100 points on the Dow. Fortunately, fortunately, there are mechanisms in place to prevent that kind of sell-off today.

COLLINS: Yes, just stop trading.

LISOVICZ: Exactly.

COLLINS: All right. Very good.

Susan Lisovicz, we'll keep watching those numbers. Thank you. LISOVICZ: You're welcome.

COLLINS: Well, as you know, we've been hearing a lot about what senators are looking for in a health care reform bill. And in our next hour, it's the House's turn.

Jonathan Allen, congressional reporter for Politico is joining us now live to talk about this a little bit further.

OK, so John, let's start with this. We knew that there are these two versions in the Senate that they are trying to agree upon and meld them together to get one. And then we are aware that there were three versions in the House trying to get all of those plans to come together for just one final reform bill, right? Is this the final coming out of the House? And what's in it? Do you know?

JONATHAN ALLEN, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, "POLITICO": Well, we haven't seen it yet. It's going to be unveiled here within the next hour or so. Nancy Pelosi is having a big event on the west front of the Capitol. It is the almost final bill for the House. What happened is the House leaders and perhaps some folks from the White House got together and merged those three bills, put in a few extra things, took some stuff out, and they're going to present it now and see if they can get to the 217 votes they're going to need to pass it in the House. There are two seats not currently occupied, which is why you only need 217, not 218.

If they can get to that number with this product, then they'll put it on the floor maybe as early as next week and vote on it. If they have trouble doing that, then they'll probably tweak it a little bit between now and then.

COLLINS: Yes. So what's your best guess? Public option or no public option?

ALLEN: There is a public option in here. What it is a little bit watered down from what the liberals wanted. It allows the HHS secretary to negotiate prices, reimbursement prices with providers. That was a big sticking point. So what you ended up with is what the blue dog moderates had wanted in terms of a public option, not as strong as the liberal option. A lot of them still may not vote for it, but I think the leadership believes they'll be able to attract at least a few more votes that way.

COLLINS: Is it safe to assume we won't see any Republicans on those steps today?

ALLEN: I think it's very unlikely that you're going to see Republicans in the House. Maybe there might be one or two. But I think it's very unlikely you'll see any House Republicans vote for this bill on its way through the House.

Now after the House and Senate start negotiating, come back with a conference agreement that looks a little bit more like what the Senate is trying to do, you might see a couple Republicans, particularly those who are running for the Senate, vote for it in the House.

COLLINS: All right. Well, we will obviously be watching all of this today and bring those plans, as they are unveiled live, straight to our viewers.

Jonathan Allen, sure do appreciate it. Thank you.

ALLEN: Take care.

COLLINS: Credit card companies gouging consumers before new rules set in. CNN helped stop one, and we'll tell you more about it in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Checking top stories for the day. President Obama talking to small business owners this morning about help through the TARP program. Plans include more access to Capitol and a health care overhaul proposal that would give small business the ability to control health costs.

61 Iraqi security officials arrested in connection with twin suicide bombings in Baghdad. Senior police and army commanders were among those taken into custody. Those detained were responsible for security in the area, where bombs targeted government offices. The Sunday attack killed 160 people.

A Chicago nightclub accused of barring six African-American students will now take part in a rally against discrimination. Bar personnel cited dress code violations, specifically, baggy jeans, for keeping out the black students from Washington University. But a white student who exchanged pants with a black student was allowed to go into the bar. The senior class president announced the nightclub will sponsor four fund-raisers and its managers will attend diversity training sessions.

More than two dozen inches of snow in Colorado and it's not even winter yet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Rob Marciano joining us now, talking about snow, snow, and apparently more of it, right? But a lot more than I think they expected and earlier than they expected?

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: All right. Very good. I know it's difficult for you.

All right, Rob, we'll check back later on. Thank you.

You know, earlier this week, we looked at how much health care money is wasted every year. In fact, there was a report. Thompson Reuters puts the figure at around $800 billion. The majority of it, in unnecessary care. The study also found about $175 billion in medical fraud and $150 billion in inefficient administrative costs. So how do we fix it? Obviously, a lot of those questions out and about today.

Dr. Peter Pronovost is an anesthesiologist and clinical care physician at John Hopkins in Baltimore, and he is joining us now. He is also a leader in the field of patient safety.

Dr. Pronovost, nice to have you today. I guess I wonder, off the top, you surprised by these numbers?

DR. PETER PRONOVOST, ANESTHESIOLOGIST AND CLINICAL CARE PHYSICIAN: No, you know, those numbers are in some sense predictable, because the health system we have is like an all you can eat buffet, at least if you have insurance. The consumer goes in, spends $5.99 and fills their plates up. The problem is, the hospitals and the restaurants count every pickle and olive you eat and send it to your employer who gets a much bigger bill, and the insurer skim off some money managing this. But all of the incentives are to overeat and to get fat.

COLLINS: Well, I guess the question then would be, are you surprised? Because I haven't heard a whole lot about this, at least until that report came out, which we covered here on our show. But by way of health care reform, and what's taking place in Washington, is it a fair question to say maybe we should back up a few steps and talk about waste first and how much money is really available to be spread around before talking about reform in specific areas?

PRONOVOST: Well, I think you're absolutely right. The three big problems with health care are, it's too costly, it denies access to too many, and its quality is often very poor. And what reform seems to be doing is myopically focusing on the access problem. Giving people insurance. And many people think that without incorporating the cost or you said the waste and the quality, we're not really going to get the kind of health reform that the public needs.

COLLINS: I mean, there's billions -- hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars available, so I guess what would you do? Let's say you went to Washington, and I know you've been studying this for years, these types of issues within health care. How do you get them to listen, that, hey, maybe some of this money is already there?

PRONOVOST: I think you're absolutely right. A lot of it is there and we have to change the incentives so that the incentive isn't to overuse and overeat that all you can eat buffet analogy.

There's a couple of things. One is some of the overuse is because there's just uncertain science. We don't know enough what works and what doesn't, because most of our research funding has gone into finding new genes and new drugs and not look at how we deliver care. So some of the inferences on comparative effectiveness are going to be really helpful.

COLLINS: Yes. And that seems to be one of the keywords that we're not hearing a lot about either. This actual delivery of care.

PRONOVOST: Right. We absolutely need malpractice reform. You know, if you come in to see me with a headache, the chance that you have a tumor or something, a stroke is infinitesimally small. But right now all the incentives are to over-test and order an MRI or a CAT scan, because if I don't do it and God forbid you have that, there's no malpractice that's going to say, well, you practiced standard medicine, it's OK. They're going to say, hey, the patient had a tumor and you missed it. So it's an inexact science, but the malpractice forces us to be inexact. And your insurance encourages us to overuse.

We also need to standardize the way we submit and process bills. In my hospital, we have to cut and dice these bills so counting all the pickles and olives every different way for every different insurer. And we -- it's enormously expensive. Indeed, we think about 30 percent of our health care costs are just in this administrative costs that don't get you better.

COLLINS: It's amazing.

PRONOVOST: And then lastly, and perhaps what's most importantly, is I would create the equivalent of the Securities and Exchange Commission in health care. You see, the -- in 1934, Franklin Delano Roosevelt created the Securities and Exchange Commission...

COLLINS: Right.

PRONOVOST: ... to make transparency in how businesses works.

Now, it hasn't done so well in its regulatory function, as we know, but it's been exceedingly effective in its transparency, so that I could read any stock report or any price-to-earnings ratio or any financial performance and I'm confident that they're speaking the same language.

In health care, you have no clue what you're buying.

COLLINS: That's right.

PRONOVOST: There's no standard reporting of outcomes. Indeed, you know, we did a study where we virtually eliminated one type of infection that kills 30,000 to 60,000 people a year, infections from catheters, in the State of Michigan. And we're now putting it in all 50 states, but in many states, the rates are still high, but only 15 percent or 20 percent of hospitals are signing up for it.

COLLINS: Yes.

PRONOVOST: And there's no -- if these rates were public, I can guarantee you the problem would go away, because people like you...

COLLINS: Absolutely.

PRONOVOST: ... or the members of the audience would demand that they go away or they would take their business elsewhere.

COLLINS: We just don't know on a whole what's going on in that department. You know what? I would love to have you on again, because we have so much going on this morning by way of health care reform. I'm sure you're aware that the House is getting ready to unveil...

PRONOVOST: I sure am, ma'am.

COLLINS: ... their plans.

So Dr. Pronovost, the idea of the SEC and also the idea of medical mistakes, we've not had an opportunity to get to, so we would like to invite you back and talk more about this, because I think the issue is obviously going to be out there for quite some time.

PRONOVOST: Heidi, I would love to and I think they're really important topics...

COLLINS: All right.

PRONOVOST: ... that haven't gotten enough attention.

COLLINS: Very good. Dr. Peter Pronovosts is coming to us from John Hopkins -- pardon me -- Baltimore, Maryland, thanks so much.

PRONOVOST: Thank you.

COLLINS: Pakistanis abandon their homes as fighting rages between the army and the Taliban. We visit one camp where the refugees are getting help.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: The Pakistani army's ongoing offensive against the Taliban has forced residents of South Waziristan to evacuate sometimes more than once. CNN's Ivan Watson reports from one refugee camp in Pakistani he says is in such a dangerous area it won't let global aid agencies in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: These wheelbarrows filled with supplies are part of the aid distribution program for the refugees fleeing the fighting in South Waziristan. You can see them lining up here getting registered. These people, some of them fled as early as August. Some in the last week and a half from the fierce fighting that's going on in that mountainous region on the border with Afghanistan between the Pakistani military and the Pakistani Taliban.

Now, I have to say of all of the aid programs I've ever seen, this is perhaps the most militarized one I've ever seen. The Pakistani army is running this program. International aid organizations not allowed to come here to Dera Ismail Khan, because of security reasons, we're told, by the Pakistani military.

The people here say they've had to flee fighting, bombardment, shelling in their villages. And I'd like to introduce you to one gentleman that we've been speaking with. This is Mr. Amanula (ph) who is a teacher from South Waziristan. And this is not the first time he has fled from South Waziristan from military operations. How many times have you run away now with your family?

MR. AMANULA (ph), FLED FROM SOUTH WAZIRISTAN: Three times.

WATSON: Three times he's run away from previous operations by these clashes between the Taliban which has proven very difficult to uproot and the Pakistani military. And the officials here, the general in charge of this operation tells us, these people probably won't be able to go back home until at least March of next year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Ivan Watson joining us now live from Islamabad. Boy, Ivan, I can't imagine the frustration of having all of that aid there but not being able to get to it. I mean, independent observers almost no access to the conflict zone. What do the refugees have to tell you about this?

WATSON: Well, these people are definitely traumatized. That man Amanula, the teacher, he says his wife and seven children -- they had to walk on foot for four days to flee the daily and nightly bombardment and artillery strikes that were hitting their villages.

And we've got similar descriptions from some of the other displaced people. Some of them very angry at the Pakistani government for what they say were attacks on civilians, some of them claiming that they'd seen civilians killed by the army's strikes.

When I asked these people about the Taliban who have been operating in this area for so long using South Waziristan as a strong hold basically, all of them were too terrified to tell me a single thing about those Taliban militants; just giving you a sense of what the climate is like in that area -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Boy, I can only imagine.

CNN's Ivan Watson reporting from Islamabad. Ivan, thank you.

There's an awful a lot going on this morning as you can see. We do have crews all over the world ready to bring it to you. We want to check in with our correspondents now beginning with Brianna Keilar on Capitol Hill and another day of health care reform. Hi, Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Heidi.

And not just another day; this is the day where House Democrats are just minutes away from unveiling their health care bill. So what is in it? We'll tell you at the top of the hour.

ROMANS: I'm Christine Romans in New York. The economy finally grew; it grew three and a half percent. But does this mean that the recession is over and how does it mean (ph) you feel at home? I'll have that story at the top of the hour.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Elizabeth Cohen in Boston. Halloween is coming up this weekend. When your little goblin or ghost goes trick-or-treating, just how many calories will they consume? It's pretty frightening. We have a cool new interactive tool to show you on CNN.com. I'll have that at the top of the hour.

COLLINS: Yes, what about all the calories the parents consume. All right guys. Thanks so much. We'll check back in with all of you.

The connection between football and long lasting injuries; some who play the game say it's time to play it safer. Hear their emotional testimony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: A CNN intervention of sorts ends one case of deceptive practices by a major credit card company. But consumer beware, there are millions of other people still being gouged by their own credit card companies. Our national correspondent Jessica Yellin is following the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Remember we told you about Chuck and Gene Lane, a couple that played by the rules but their credit card company, like so many others, jacked up their payments before new regulations go into effect next year.

CHUCK LANE, CREDIT CARD CUSTOMER: I'm calling to figure out why my payment jumped from $370 to $911 this month.

YELLIN: Now, Chuck tells CNN his bank offered to slash his payments to $270 a month; less than before. The bank won't confirm the offer citing privacy issues but after CNN's story, the Lanes' Congresswoman Betty Sutton also prodded the bank to take action.

REP. BETTY SUTTON (D), OHIO: They did take the appropriate action to reduce the payment. But it's unfortunate that it has to go to that extent.

YELLIN: It's great news for the Lanes but what about millions of other who are seeing their credit card payments skyrocket? A new PEW study of the 12 biggest credit card companies finds they're adding new fees, increasing some rates by more than 20 percent and making changes that could cause monetary injury to consumers.

NICK BOURKE, PEW SAFE CREDIT CARDS PROJECT: The bottom line is that credit card companies are doing whatever practices that are most profitable for them as long as they can. And until the law takes effect, that's going to continue.

YELLIN (on camera): And Congress can step in and stop it now?

BOURKE: Congress can step in and stop it now.

YELLIN (voice-over): Some members are trying. Representative Sutton is introducing a bill that would prevent unfair new fees. Representative Betsy Marquise also saw our piece is introducing a bill that would halt rate increases but so far neither has become law.

LANE: I know I'm not the only one. And I'm sure there's a lot of other people out there that can't afford an increase of 2.5 times what they put into their budget for a credit card bill.

YELLIN (on camera): The lobby that represents credit card companies tells CNN that credit card lending is the riskiest type of lending. And rising interest rates are directly related to the state of the economy. As for all those other consumers who aren't featured in a CNN piece, they can still hope that their member of Congress takes action.

Jessica Yellin, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)