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Campbell Brown
President Obama Nears Decision on Afghanistan Troop Levels; Interview With Wanda Sykes
Aired October 29, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: Barack Obama facing the biggest decision of his presidency, under cover of darkness, a moment of reflection, the president saluting the remains of war dead just back from Afghanistan.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The burden that both our troops and our families bear in any wartime situation is going to bear on how I see these conflicts.
C. BROWN: The looming question, is the president preparing to send more men and women into the war zone, and will even that be enough to win?
Plus, Michelle Obama in the weeds today, flexing her muscles in the White House garden. But will she ever show us more than Hula- hoops? Is Michelle Obama living up to her true potential as first lady?
And on Capitol Hill today, still no solutions one year after the Wall Street collapse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Too big to fail.
C. BROWN: Billions of bailout dollars later, why has nothing changed? Will we ever be able to rein in Wall Street?
And also tonight, intriguing person, comedian Wanda Sykes on President Obama.
WANDA SYKES, COMEDIAN: Dithering is a good thing. I like that. Dick Cheney, he had to act fast because he never knew when that ticker was going to give out.
C. BROWN: And motherhood.
SYKES: I'm tired. You sure you don't want to take a nap right now?
BROWN (on camera): Yes, let's do it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown. C. BROWN: Hi, everybody.
We're going to start tonight, as always, with the "Mash-Up," our look at all the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed. We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
And our top story tonight, Wall Street, once and for all, some good news here, stocks rallying to a three-month high after some new government numbers show the economy is finally growing again. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's the first increase in over a year and the biggest spurt in two years. The president calls it proof his recession-fighting programs, like the economic stimulus plan and the cash for clunkers plan, they have made a difference.
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: But unemployment is still at 9.8 percent, the worst since 1983. So, the president was careful to say the recovery still has a long way to go.
OBAMA: While this report today represents real progress, the benchmark I use to measure the strength of our economy is not just whether our GDP is growing, but whether we're creating jobs, whether families are having an easier time paying their bills, whether our businesses are hiring and doing well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The recession's cost us more than seven million jobs and it will take years to get them back. The economy's not expected to begin creating jobs again until early next year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Advisers know that's the economic indicator that matters most to Middle America, jobs.
TIMOTHY GEITHNER, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: For every person out of work, the recession remains alive and acute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Still, Wall Street was buoyant, the Dow up nearly 200.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: Up until now, the economy had been shrinking at a rate not seen since the Great Depression.
And on now to some moving pictures from Dover Air Force Base, a sad illustration of the Afghanistan dilemma -- a somber commander in chief saluting fallen Americans on their final return home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The president, he left the White House here shortly before midnight, wearing a dark tie and a dark long overcoat, headed to not only receive the 18 bodies of those Americans killed overseas, but also to meet with their family members and their loved ones.
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": After meeting privately with their families, the president and other dignitaries boarded the plane to welcome the fallen heroes home and join a chaplain in a brief prayer. Then the president and his group left the plane and stood at attention, saluting as the flag-draped transfer cases were removed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On his flight home, President Obama thanked his military aide for arranging the trip, and no one said a word for the remainder of the 45-minute flight. The president walked into the White House alone.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": And today he talked about the experience, especially in terms of big decision he has to make about the war here in Afghanistan.
OBAMA: It was a sobering reminder of the extraordinary sacrifices that our young men and women in uniform are engaging in every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: The president, of course, still deciding whether to send more troops to Afghanistan. The commander on the ground says they are absolutely necessary to avoid failure, but will they be enough to ensure victory there? We are going to tell you about some other strategic options on the table as well coming up in just a few minutes.
On Capitol Hill today, another milestone in the health care battle. After much Sturm und Drang, House Democrats finally unveiled their bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Speaker Nancy Pelosi today unveiled a 2,000-page bill combining three different versions of legislation passed by three separate House committees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flanked by fellow Democrats on the Capitol steps, Speaker Pelosi declared this an historic day.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Today, we are about to deliver on the promise of making affordable quality health care available for all Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bill requires all Americans to buy health insurance or pay a fine, includes subsidies to help lower-income Americans pay for it.
BLITZER: It includes a controversial government-run insurance option.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would prevent insurance companies from denying coverage for preexisting conditions and require businesses to provide insurance for their employees. DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The House Democrats say their proposal would cost $894 billion.
COURIC: Paid for by deep cuts to Medicare and an income tax surcharge on the wealthiest Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: The bill expected to go to the House floor next week, of course, no indication at all that any Republicans are going to vote for this thing. Today, they seemed stunned by the sheer size of it, saying bigger doesn't necessarily make better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Nineteen hundred and ninety pages.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen hundred and ninety pages.
REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), HOUSE MINORITY WHIP: Nearly 2,000 page bill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's 1,990 pages.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One gigantic piece of legislation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's about four reams of paper. I would say that the people that are getting reamed are the American people.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: Our friends over at Politico point out the bill runs longer than "War and Peace" and has nearly five times as many words as the Torah.
Turning now to an astonishing dispatch -- this from a British couple being held hostage by pirates in the Indian Ocean. Paul and Rachel Chandler were kidnapped from their yacht last week. Well, today, the British Navy found the yacht, but not the Chandlers.
But we later learned they are alive and talking to British ITV News. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul told me he and his wife had been taken off their yacht and were now being held on board a hijacked container ship which was seized by pirates earlier this month.
Have the -- have your hostage-takers demanded any ransom?
PAUL CHANDLER, HOSTAGE OF PIRATES: Not officially. They kept asking for money and took everything of value on the boat. They haven't asked formally for money yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: The interview cut out after the reporter asked Mr. Chandler how he was being treated. Relatives say they are still waiting to hear from the pirates.
Now moving to a true story of change, the journey of Chaz Bono, the only child of Sonny and Cher, who is now undergoing a sex change and telling the world all about it. He sat down with "Entertainment Tonight."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you growing a beard, Chaz? Do you shave?
CHAZ BONO, CHILD OF SONNY AND CHER: I shave about once a week now. So, it's not -- certainly not thick. It kind of started to come in like -- just like peach fuzz. And so, it's kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was that kind of a thrill for you?
BONO: Oh, my God, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Must have been.
BONO: It was great.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hormones have clearly changed your voice.
BONO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was that something that was a real adjustment for you?
BONO: You know, it does it in stages. So, no. You know, I mean, I'm literally going through puberty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: Puberty at age 40, how about that?
And now to the "Punchline." This is courtesy of Jimmy Kimmel tonight, shocked, apparently, at the news that tennis great Andre Agassi was once in the thrall of crystal meth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": It's astonishing to have an admission like this from a squeaky clean icon like Andre Agassi, who certainly doesn't need the money. I never suspected anything like this about him ever. But if you look back at some of the tape from 1997, particularly at the U.S. Open, you can kind of see how the meth may have affected his play.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Serving for match point at the French Open, Andre Agassi wasting no time with his second service. Look at the speed, the intensity. Agassi is on fire. And Agassi wins. And he is now taking apart what appears to be a VCR.
KIMMEL: Well, that's weird.
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMEL: That seems like somebody would have noticed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: All right, Jimmy Kimmel, everybody.
That is tonight's "Mash-Up."
President Obama sits down with the military's top brass tomorrow to talk about Afghanistan. Here is one of the questions we want answered tonight. Is paying Taliban fighters to switch sides a good idea or a colossal waste of our money?
Plus, one of the nation's top business reporters, Andrew Ross Sorkin, is going to tell us why there is a downside to cutting back on big Wall Street bonuses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, FINANCIAL COLUMNIST AND REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It satiates or satisfies the public lust for blood, if you will. But it creates another conundrum, which is, we own these companies. We're the taxpayers. We're the shareholders. And now -- and it's not to say we want to reward failure, but it's now very hard to attract top talent to any of these firms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Tomorrow, President Obama sits down for an all- important meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And this will be one of the last meetings before the president decides whether to commit thousands more U.S. troops to Afghanistan.
With so much on the line right now, another part of the war effort is also getting a lot of attention tonight. The president has signed a bill that would essentially put Taliban fighters on the U.S. payroll, I mean, literally buying the loyalty of local Taliban members.
It has worked before. Some 90,000 Iraqis switched sides and were paid $300 each per month. So, could this same idea work in Afghanistan?
We're going to talk about that and this strategy more generally with CNN's Michael Ware with us tonight, national security analyst Peter Bergen, and Michael Crowley, senior editor of "The New Republic," who, we should mention, just traveled with Secretary Gates.
And we will talk about that with you as well.
Welcome, everybody.
Michael, let me just get your take on this, generally. How much will it help, paying Taliban?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, a program like this can't be taken as a given.
Iraq is Iraq, and Afghanistan is Afghanistan. You can't just pick the model up and dump it down. That being said, the principle -- there is room and indeed tradition in Afghanistan for doing just these things. It's about putting it in the interests of tribes or commanders or individuals who have drifted over to the Taliban, simply to drift back.
I mean...
C. BROWN: Who don't have real loyalty to the Taliban.
WARE: That's what I was about to say.
I mean, a lot of the fighters on the ground and even the mid- ranking commanders aren't in the Taliban to be Taliban. It's because it's in their best interests right now. So, you just have to put it in someone else's interests to go your way, to align their interests with yours for either a brief period or not.
That being said also, it won't be as simple as Iraq. It won't be -- it will be messier. It will be much more complicated. And the repercussions can be enormous.
C. BROWN: Is that a danger we have here, Peter, thinking about this in terms of the way we did in Iraq, that it worked with the Sunnis, and that they're just trying to apply the same model?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, as a general principle, it's a good idea, and certainly in Iraq, it was probably one of the best use of American taxpayer money, was the $300 million a year that was spent on getting 100,000 people who used to be shooting at American soldiers to be shooting instead at our -- at the United States' enemies.
That's a massive surge of effectively 200,000 people. So it so worked in Iraq. In Afghanistan, you know, I think, on the lower level, the lower-level commanders, as Mike has indicated, this is very plausible.
In terms of the upper levels of the Taliban, this is a nonstarter. But this money is not meant for that. This is meant for commanders on the ground who are at sort of a local level, buying off the local commander. The higher levels of the Taliban have taken every opportunity to say they have no interest in having a deal. And I just take that at face value.
C. BROWN: So let's go a little broader with this. We mentioned earlier this big meeting taking place Friday. You have traveled very recently with Secretary of Defense Gates around the con -- around the world, I should say.
Give us your -- your impression, because I'm -- he didn't come out and tell you what the plan is going to be.
MICHAEL CROWLEY, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Right. No. No.
C. BROWN: But where do you think he's leaning? Did you get a sense for that?
CROWLEY: Well, he's been very cagey. He's playing his cards close. He's a former CIA man, so he likes secrecy and discretion.
But I think, if you read the tea leaves, if you look at his public statements, and you look at who he -- who is reporting to him, the military chain of command, Admiral Mullen, General McChrystal in Afghanistan, those guys want to go big with counterinsurgency, 40,000 or more troops.
And I think Gates is much closer to those guys than he is to Vice President Biden, who wants to try to do this as much as possible with a light troop presence and Predator drones and special forces.
I think Gates is pushing Obama in the direction of a bigger counterinsurgency operation that uses a lot of troops. And I think one reason that this new strategy is appealing is an understanding that there are so many troops, number one, that our military can supply, and, number two, that public opinion and the political system will support right now.
So, even if you're not going to be able to buy off the whole Taliban insurgency, if you can shrink that population of people that we have to deal with, that's very important, because we just don't have enough troops to really just come in and conquer them.
C. BROWN: And is that kind of the thinking here?
WARE: Yes.
C. BROWN: It's that you have got to bring -- you have to look at this twofold. The political will is not there. We just don't have the raw numbers.
WARE: Right.
C. BROWN: We have got to look at other areas where we can... WARE: Really, on the military, you know, formula, if you really wanted to win the war in Afghanistan, you need about 400,000 or 500,000 troops. Now, that's just not going to happen.
Plus, you also need local solutions at the end of the day anyway, because you are hoping to get out of there as quickly as possible. And let's be realistic. The Obama administration has really only got to look for a solution that's going to hold itself together with glue and string for a couple of years until the next presidential election.
So, yes, you need to look at what you have got and you ultimately need a local solution. I was just sitting with some of these warlords six weeks ago. And some of them have been ignored by the Karzai government, and saying, well, tell me why I shouldn't go to the Taliban? Give me something better.
C. BROWN: Let me quickly, before we go, Peter, ask you how Pakistan plays into all of this, because you still have these issues with terrorists along the border in Pakistan. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton criticized the country's inability to take out those terrorists.
How much of a challenge are we facing if Pakistan isn't dealing with the situation it faces, I mean, especially given the recent violence?
BERGEN: Well, I think one of the biggest strategic changes in the last year or so is, the Pakistani population, government, and military are really -- have got very sick of the militants.
These new military operations by the Pakistani military are much more serious against the Taliban than anything we have seen in the past. This is supported by the population. They don't have to win any hearts and minds. They have got the population behind them.
And it may not be a perfect solution, but it is certainly better than anything that's preceded, you know, in the last several years.
C. BROWN: Peter Bergen with us tonight, Michael Ware, and Michael Crowley, thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Thanks very much.
(CROSSTALK)
C. BROWN: When we come back: Michelle Obama can make just about any event look glamorous, even harvesting sweet potatoes in the White House garden, like she did today. But, tonight, we're going to talk with some observers who say that the first lady is squandering an opportunity to make a real difference in this country.
Also coming up a little later, comedian Wanda Sykes weighs in as well. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYKES: She's out there Hula-hooping with the kids. And, I mean, that's such a great message. You know, get your fat butt off the sofa and go play with your kid a little bit.
C. BROWN: And go Hula-hoop?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: You might be tempted by the first-time homebuyer's tax credit, but is there another, better reason to buy a home right now? Ali Velshi has that coming up.
(NEWS BREAK)
C. BROWN: On Capitol Hill tonight: strong pushback against the Obama administration's plan to rein in giant corporations. One of the nation's top business reporters, Andrew Ross Sorkin, who has a new book out, is here tonight to tell us why this is a problem in need of a solution and fast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SORKIN: We still have institutions, frankly, that are too big to fail. And the question becomes, how do you deal with that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: Plus, tonight's intriguing person, Wanda Sykes. We're going to talk about how motherhood has changed the life of the always outspoken comedian.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYKES: They just give you a new life, a healthier, happier life. If I didn't have kids, I would probably be coming out of rehab by now.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on Capitol Hill today pushing Congress to give the government power to step in when big Wall Street firms, the ones called too big to fail, are in trouble. But Republicans and even some Democrats worry it would give Washington too much power and cost taxpayers too much money.
Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEITHNER: The government has to have stronger supervisory and regulatory authority over these major firms. They need to be empowered with explicit authority to force major institutions to reduce their size or restrict the scope of their activities where that is necessary to reduce risk to the system. And this is a critically important tool we don't now have at present.
REP. RANDY NEUGEBAUER (R), TEXAS: This version still keeps the government in the bailout business.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: No more American taxpayer money should be set aside, in case we have the kind of tragedy and economic failure that we saw in the last couple of years.
REP. ED ROYCE (R), CALIFORNIA: Apparently, the too big to fail model is too hard to kill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
C. BROWN: So, we just heard a lot of skepticism...
SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: ... about White House plans right now. But -- but something has to happen here, right?
We're not going to let these guys police themselves, are we?
SORKIN: Well, hopefully not.
And I think we're -- we're moving in the right direction. Whether this proposal is -- is the final answer, I'm not sure. But I have to say, a year out from the crisis, it's actually nice to see that we're actually getting some type of proposals on the table for the first time.
C. BROWN: So -- so why? Do you think the White House doesn't get it?
I mean what -- when are we going to hear something that's on the table that sort of gets to the heart of this problem?
SORKIN: Well, it's because -- because there's a couple issues. We still have institutions, frankly, that are too big to fail.
And the question becomes, how do you deal with that?
Do you deal -- the way the government wants to deal with it today is to deal with it potentially right at the moment that they're about to fail. So, the good news is that we wouldn't be hijacked as taxpayers anymore, in that we'd be able to wind these firms down in an orderly way. That's very important. That's what happened to Lehman Brothers.
C. BROWN: Right.
SORKIN: And so if we can solve that problem, that's huge. But the other problem we don't get, which is the ethos on Wall Street, the culture of Wall Street, the bonuses on Wall Street, and, frankly, the debt on Wall Street, which is -- it doesn't really get at how much money -- how -- what kind of rainy day fund do we really have in these banks and -- and how much -- how much risk is there going to still be in the system?
C. BROWN: And how much does that worry you, that we're not addressing that?
Because those are big issues...
SORKIN: Well, I'll you what...
C. BROWN: ... and problems.
SORKIN: ... what worries me is that to the extent that there is going to be legislation about these issues or that we would hope that there would be, to the extent the economy continues to improve, where you hear better and better numbers...
C. BROWN: Right.
SORKIN: ... it gets much harder...
C. BROWN: To make those changes?
SORKIN: ... to make those changes, to really have legislation that has teeth in it, because, you know, on Wall Street, as in Washington, people have such short memories and people move on to other issues -- health care reform and the like.
C. BROWN: But...
SORKIN: And so it's very difficult to get people's attention on this particular issue.
C. BROWN: But I also hear people say the opposite of that, that, you know, these are so complicated -- these issues are so complicated...
SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: ... that we do need to take our time and make sure that we do this right.
SORKIN: Right. You know, I wouldn't dissuade you from that view. But we've taken a good year of time. I think we know what the problems were and, really, it's a matter of addressing them. And -- and, clearly, you already have Wall Street, you know, the lobbyists are already lining up. And so -- against a lot of this. And so it's going to get harder and harder as things gets better.
C. BROWN: The White House is talking about -- well, they are, in some cases, putting these stiff limits on salaries for CEOs...
SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: ... who took bailout money.
What do you think about that?
And I know this is very controversial.
SORKIN: Yes. It -- it -- symbolically, it's actually a very good thing in that I think it -- it satiates or satisfies the public lust for blood, if you will. But it creates another conundrum, which is we own these companies, we're -- we're the taxpayers, we're the shareholders. And now -- and it's not to say we want to reward failure, but it's now very hard to attract top talent to any of these firms.
C. BROWN: The ones we own.
SORKIN: The ones we own.
And so you sort of -- you're -- at some level, you're -- you're putting yourself in a box, in part because the most talented people will leave and go across the street to Goldman or Morgan Stanley or J.P. Morgan, where they can get whatever bonus they want, and, in part, because to try to get the talented people from Goldman, J.P. Morgan and Morgan Stanley, they don't want to come across the street to a place where -- where the incomes aren't -- and that's not to say -- again, you don't want to reward failure but it -- it puts you in a box.
C. BROWN: Let me talk specifically about the book, because it traces the financial collapse.
(CROSSTALK)
C. BROWN: And, you know, Lehman Brothers, I think we were all stunned went it went over. But...
SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: But you write how -- how it really was the tip of the iceberg.
SORKIN: Right.
You know, for me, we all woke up in September and it was a surprise. It was a shock to the system that the world was falling off its axis. But as I reported this out, the scariest part was actually how much the people in power in Washington and on Wall Street saw this domino falling much earlier.
C. BROWN: And, I mean you write about how close it came for Goldman Sachs.
SORKIN: Right. Right.
C. BROWN: I mean... SORKIN: Well, that's the other part that I don't think we appreciated. At that -- at that moment -- there was a time -- in fact, Hank Paulson, there's a scene in the book where he physically vomits because it's taking such an emotional toll. I mean I think there was a view that Morgan Stanley was going to go under, that Goldman Sachs was going to go next, and, frankly, then it was General Electric. You know, Jeffrey Immelt, who was the CEO of General Electric, was on the phone with Hank Paulson that week.
And so, this was going to affect Americana in a way that we had not, I think, previously appreciated.
C. BROWN: So -- so what was the biggest mistake, do you think, that Washington made during this collapse, as these things were happening?
SORKIN: You know, the question is could you have mitigated it better?
I think that, listen, there were 10 years of seeds being sewn, whether it was deregulation, whether it was the amount of debt these banks were taking on, whether it was the interest rate being as low as it was.
But by the time we got to this period of last summer or spring, there was not much you could do.
I think letting Lehman Brothers fail was -- was probably one of the bigger mistakes. Having said that, the question is whether we should have let Bear Stearns fail the first time, because we -- it created this expectation. And that's sort of what undermined the confidence.
But I will tell you, if Bear had gone, some people would tell you that Lehman was going next, back in March.
C. BROWN: Wow.
If there's one lesson that Washington has learned, if there's one lesson Wall Street has learned, for that matter, what is it?
Have they learned any lessons?
SORKIN: OK, so...
C. BROWN: Please tell me yes.
SORKIN: I want to say yes, but I think it -- there's an unsatisfying answer and it's that there hasn't been a lesson learned. I mean, the book is called "Too Big To Fail." It's as much about people who think that they're too big to fail. And I'm not sure that that ethos has yet to change.
C. BROWN: Yes.
How do you address ego issues? SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: I mean that's a big one.
Bottom line going forward, Andrew, I guess the last question...
SORKIN: Right.
C. BROWN: What's your forecast?
It feels like things are getting better. Is it?
SORKIN: You know, I'd like to say things are getting better and the numbers support that. And yet you have this -- it's -- there's a huge disconnect in America, right?
I mean there's -- you hear about these bonus numbers and yet your neighbor doesn't have a job and they can't get a mortgage. The jobless numbers are going to stay, I think, at this -- at this double digit number for a very long time. And -- and that really makes you question how sustainable is this recovery.
You know, I hope we are not Japan. I hope this it not the Great Depression. But -- but I do have lots of anxiety and fears when I go to sleep at night.
C. BROWN: And on that note...
SORKIN: Thank you (INAUDIBLE).
C. BROWN: ... an uplifting way to end the interview.
Andrew Ross Sorkin. The book is "Too Big To Fail."
Thank you.
SORKIN: Thank you so much for having me.
C. BROWN: And when we come back, we're going to talk about First Lady Michelle Obama. Certainly, she knows how to drama the cameras, but is she living up to her true potential as first lady? Some women want to see her out there, being a little more aggressive, a little more outspoken. Does the first lady need a course correction? We're going to talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Today, Michelle Obama hosted one of those White House events that's guaranteed to attract the cameras. She was in the White House kitchen garden, harvesting sweet potatoes, surrounded by enthusiastic fifth graders. Take a look at this.
There they are. It's all pretty cute. Of course, we're all in favor of healthy eating. But is this really the best way for the first lady to use her considerable influence? And here to talk about that question is Tina Brown, who is founder, of course, of The Daily Beast. And Allison Samuels, who wrote the "Newsweek" column, "How Will Michelle Obama Make Her Mark."
Welcome to both of you. Allison, let me start with you on this because you write in the new edition of "Newsweek" about the first lady. You say, you "selfishly yearn for more from her, sounding almost disappointed in Michelle Obama so far. Is she letting you down? Why?
ALLISON SAMUELS, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "NEWSWEEK": Oh, no, she's not letting me down. And the reason I did the article is that I've talked to so different women out there who are always saying oh, I want to hear more of Michelle. I wonder what she thinks about this. I wonder what she thinks about that. Not in any disappointing way, but just thinking, you know, this is an intelligent, smart woman. She probably can answer a lot of our questions that we really want answered, and we want to see more of her. We want to hear what her thoughts are. Not because we don't think she's done enough, but we just would like to see her a little bit more out there talking about the issues that sort of really, really matter to us.
C. BROWN: Well, she is --
SAMUELS: And I think she will.
C. BROWN: She is doing, I would say, what she always said she was going to do, which is being mom-in-chief, essentially.
SAMUELS: Right.
C. BROWN: It's not like she's sort of breaking any promises to be more in the forefront, right?
SAMUELS: No, not at all. And I think she is doing that. But I think because of the state of the country, people are in need for so many different answers for so many different problems and they look at her as being this very smart, powerful women. And they want to say, you know what? I feel like she's compassionate enough to help me with my problem. And that was the reason for the story. Just to talk about, you know, other people are looking at her and saying, I really want to know what she feels about certain issues.
C. BROWN: I think, Tina, that Allison has hit a nerve because I've had this conversation with a lot of women who really saw her as a role model, this professional, successful, powerful woman and they want to see her demonstrate that in this job. Do --
T. BROWN: Well, I understand that feeling, but one thing I've learned about Michelle Obama is that she's very good as what I think almost kind of cereal power surges. You know, she's a smart woman about picking her moment. And it's almost as if she has decided this is her first year in the White House, she's got to get to grips with it. She's got to know how to handle it. She's got to learn how to be first lady, get her kids in there. Her husband is going through utter, you know, barrage of hell, so she has to kind of really back him up.
I think you're going to see in year two that she starts to have a far more sort of considered rollout of her more public positions. You know, she's going to become, for instance, the administration's point person on childhood obesity. That's going to be one of her issues. I think you're going to see her addressing issues of children, families, parenting, and I think she'll do it in a kind of planned way. She's a very planning kind of a woman.
C. BROWN: But do you think, both of you, and Tina, you start on this, that there are people surrounding the president certainly, it seems like this is the case in every administration who counsel the first lady, don't get too far out there on issues. For heaven's sake, don't take on anything controversial. We need you to sort of take a backseat and play this traditional first lady role that she seems to be doing, which isn't that far from Laura Bush.
T. BROWN: No, I think that's right. I mean, of course, you know, the advisers are always going to be nervous of the first lady getting out there and develop being a kind of separate lightning rod.
I do though think that Michelle herself had some scary experiences campaigning.
C. BROWN: Joining the campaign.
T. BROWN: And she's a fast learner. I think she had a terrifying moment where she suddenly felt that she could evolve into being a negative to him. And there was that moment --
C. BROWN: When she talked about, this is the first time I've been proud of my country.
T. BROWN: It's the first time I've been proud of my country.
C. BROWN: Right.
T. BROWN: She was coming off as a real lightning rod, again, negative. And I think it just made her think, I'm going to rethink this. I'm going to really rethink this.
C. BROWN: Right.
T. BROWN: And I think she's been very intelligent about it.
SAMUELS: I think -
C. BROWN: Go ahead, Allison.
SAMUELS: I think she really has been careful because I think the last thing that she wants to do, obviously, is become sort of what Hillary Clinton was in Bill's administration. She doesn't want to be this person that's a distraction for her husband, particularly under the circumstances that he's running, you know, sort of the country right now. I think she doesn't want to do anything to distract from that.
And so I agree with Tina. I think that she will -- we'll see more of her doing more things next year, but I think she's really trying to pace herself this year. And so far, so good. I just think women really do relate to her and they are very interested in what she has to say.
C. BROWN: All right. We will end it there. Allison Samuels, who has, again, this great piece in "Newsweek" and Tina Brown from "The Daily Beast," as always, thanks to you both. Appreciate it.
T. BROWN: Thank you.
SAMUELS: Thank you.
C. BROWN: Comedian Wanda Sykes is getting ready to break late- night barriers. And if you think she's going to play it safe on her new show, think again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYKES: I think people are expecting me to cross the line. They're waiting for me to go over the line.
C. BROWN: They're watching to see you go over the line.
SYKES: And that's where I'm going to take them.
C. BROWN: You are?
SYKES: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Tonight's intriguing person, Wanda Sykes. The sassy comic with a very sharp tongue stole the show with her hard-hitting monologue at this year's White House correspondence dinner and Sykes is about to become the first gay African-American woman to host her own late-night TV show. Check out her impression of President Obama from her latest HBO special called "I'ma Be Me."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYKES: I love seeing him take that stroll across the White House lawn, boy. It's just beautiful. You see him, he's just walking across the lawn.
(LAUGHTER)
He didn't do that (bleep) during the campaign, did he? He was like, OK, one, two, wave, smile, one, two, wave, smile. Whatever you do, do not touch your penis, do not --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: And Wanda Sykes is here with us now. Hi, welcome.
SYKES: Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here. C. BROWN: So, is it about more than the walk? What do you think? Is President Obama really all that different from candidate Obama?
SYKES: I think so. Now, he's really cool. Before he was like I'm -- I'm confident, I can do the job, I'm efficient. And now he's like hey, come on, let's play basketball and he's -- you know, he's in -- just like he's enjoying it, but it's -- it -- you could tell it's very stressful, because you can see it's -- you know...
C. BROWN: He's got more gray hair.
SYKES: He's got some grays going on now. Yes. Michelle needs to pick up a box of Just for Men and...
(LAUGHTER)
C. BROWN: Do you hear some people say, when they observe him now, that he's too cautious, that he -- you know, people need to be scared of him, he needs to be more aggressive, more authoritative?
SYKES: No...
C. BROWN: Do you...
SYKES: I...
C. BROWN: What's your take on that?
SYKES: I say, you know, yes, maybe he can step it up a little and do the things that, you know, we voted for -- you know, why -- what we voted for him to do, the things that we hoped that -- that he would do, he said he would do. But I don't think we should push him, because remember the last eight years, what we had. We had a guy who was pushing it and -- and everybody was afraid of him. We don't want that again.
I like a president who sits back and thinks and -- and dithers.
(CROSSTALK)
C. BROWN: And he has delivered it.
SYKES: I think dithering is a good thing. I like that. So Obama, he can say, let me think about it for a while. I'll get back to you on that. Let me sleep on it. Dick Cheney, you know, he ain't that fast, because you never knew when that ticker was going to give out. So he -- he had no time to dither.
C. BROWN: What do you think about Michelle?
SYKES: I love her.
C. BROWN: Yes?
SYKES: Yes. I think -- I think she's great. C. BROWN: What do you love about her?
SYKES: She's a first lady who is -- is leading by example, you know?
She -- I mean she planted her herb garden, right?
She's -- she's out there hula hooping with the kids and, you know, if people get upset, I'm like hey, come on. She's -- she's outside playing with her kids.
(CROSSTALK)
SYKES: But that -- I mean that's such a great message. You know, get your fat butt off the sofa and...
C. BROWN: And go hula hoop.
SYKES: ... watch your kids a little bit.
C. BROWN: But if there has been any criticism of her, some people have said, you know, I would like to see her take on more serious issues and be out there talking about things that maybe are a little more controversial.
SYKES: Well, I say he has enough on his plate there. You know, he's handling the big issues.
C. BROWN: He doesn't need her to stir things up?
SYKES: He doesn't need her in there, you know. You know, let -- let him handle that and, really, it's that the family those are the things that she's focusing on. That's -- that's what we, you know, where we need help.
C. BROWN: Speaking of family, you have a new family.
SYKES: Yes, I do.
C. BROWN: You have twins.
SYKES: Yes, I do. Yes.
C. BROWN: Six months old.
SYKES: Yes. Yes.
C. BROWN: So what do you think...
SYKES: A boy and a girl.
C. BROWN: ... about motherhood?
SYKES: I love it.
C. BROWN: Yes? SYKES: I love it. I'm -- it's a lot of work, I mean, as you know.
You're tired, right?
C. BROWN: Yes.
SYKES: Well, let me just take a little nap right now.
C. BROWN: Sleep deprivation.
SYKES: Let's just take a nap right now.
C. BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) with age.
SYKES: Right.
C. BROWN: It's going to get better.
SYKES: Really?
C. BROWN: Everybody keeps telling me that.
SYKES: You think it's going to get better?
C. BROWN: But you have twins.
SYKES: There's two of them.
C. BROWN: I've only got one.
SYKES: There's two of them.
C. BROWN: Well, I've only got one baby. I've got two toddler -- plus a toddler.
SYKES: OK. Yes. Yes.
C. BROWN: But I mean how do you manage it? You've got a new show and twins.
SYKES: Right. You know, we're -- we don't try to handle both of them at the same time. Like, we'll stick one in the closet and just deal with the one and it's...
(LAUGHTER)
No. It's -- but, you know, we -- we lucked out. They are really good babies.
C. BROWN: You know, you used to joke -- I read this -- that -- that kids ruined people's lives.
SYKES: Yes. I still stand by that. They ruin your life. They do.
C. BROWN: In a good way, though.
SYKES: Yes, in a good way. They just give you a new life. They just give you a new life, a healthier, happier life.
C. BROWN: So you...
(CROSSTALK)
SYKES: ... if I didn't have kids, I would probably be coming out of rehab by now. I think, yes...
C. BROWN: They saved your life in some way?
(LAUGHTER)
So you were taking on -- I mean talk about breaking a glass ceiling here -- late night comedy world. It's been all men, all white men.
SYKES: Right.
C. BROWN: So what do you think?
Are you going to do things different? Are you going to shake it up a little bit?
SYKES: I am going to get made up like a white guy. I think I'll do that.
(LAUGHTER)
Maybe get a big chin and a gap in my teeth. I don't know. I want this show to feel like you're hanging out at my house or -- you know, on a Saturday night. So we're doing what I do with my friends -- you know, well, what I used to do before I had the babies, when friends would come over and get me down.
C. BROWN: Yes.
SYKES: The kids don't -- you know, my friends don't want to come over now. So they come over -- you know, they come over, we hang out. There's -- I do a monologue. Then, you know, there'll be video pieces and a big produced piece. And then the bar opens.
Yes. I have a W with a giant W and it spins around. Ah, drinks. Yes, drinks.
C. BROWN: In this late night world...
SYKES: There you go.
C. BROWN: ... do you think, as a woman, that you're -- that you can say things and take on issues and talk about things that -- that your competitors maybe can't?
SYKES: Yes, I think so. I -- I -- well, mainly because I think people are expecting me to cross the line. They're waiting for me to go -- go over the line. So that's why --
C. BROWN: They're watching to see you go over the line.
SYKES: They're watching. And that's where I'm going to take them.
C. BROWN: You are?
SYKES: Yes.
C. BROWN: Wanda Sykes, we can't wait to watch.
SYKES: Thank you.
C. BROWN: We're excited about the show. Good luck to you.
SYKES: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
C. BROWN: And we're counting down to "LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour. Larry, I know you got Michael Moore with you tonight, right?
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: I do. And we're going to find out what he thinks is so wrong with capitalism. He's here's to tell us.
And then Congressman Ron Paul is here to tell us what's wrong with what he's saying. And after that, actor Edward Norton stops by about his new film, a documentary about President Obama and we've got a sneak preview for you. It's great behind the scenes stuff, Campbell, next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
C. BROWN: I heard, Larry, he got extraordinary access. Very, very anxious to see it.
KING: Me too.
C. BROWN: All right. We will see you in a few.
KING: Thanks.
C. BROWN: When we come back, big news tonight out of Washington. The economy finally growing after the most severe downturn since the Great Depression. So is now the time to buy your dream house? Ali Velshi says yes. He's going to join me next to explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Time is running out for new homebuyers to take advantage of the government's tax break. Congress is still working on extending it, but even if they don't, is this the right time to buy?
Well, in tonight's "Money and Main Street, our chief business correspondent Ali Velshi shows us why it might be. ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Parts of the economy are on the mend, Campbell, but there are still major problems. We continue to lose jobs and that means distressed sales and foreclosures are likely to continue. But with that $8,000 first-time homebuyers' credit that we've got until November and 30-year fixed mortgages at about five percent, people are buying homes and prices are starting to stabilize.
A new report predicts that home prices will continue to drop through most of the country on average about 11 percent, between now and the middle of 2010. So why rush to buy a home now?
Well, five percent mortgage rates is why. It's unclear whether home prices will actually continue to drop or might even start to rise, but what is clear is that we're borrowing all sorts of money. The dollar remains low against other currencies and that means interest rates and mortgage rates are likely to increase.
Let me show you how this relates to you buying a home. Right now the median price of a single family home in the United States, that's the kind we all live in, is $177,000. That means half of all homes that are sold sell for less and half sell for more. If you believe that that price is coming down over the course of the next year, 11 percent or so, that takes that price down to $158,000 and that seems like a no-brainer. Why not pay $158,000 for the same house, specifically if you're going to live in it for about 30 years?
Well, let's blow the roof off of that myth. Let's take a look at a chart of home prices and interest rates.
First of all, home prices, $177,500 is where we are right now and we think that's going to go down to about $158,000 over the course of the next nine months or so. Now let's look at interests. They're about five percent now if you have good credit for a 30-year fixed mortgage and I think that they could go up to 6.5 percent by next year. That's what other people think too.
Here's what happens. If interest rates go up and that home price goes down, over the course of 30 years, the home price will be $378,000 if you pay $177,000 for it now. If you wait and the price goes down but the interest rate goes up, look at that, you're paying less now, but the total cost of that home is going to be $391,000 over 30 years versus $378,000. And that is why, for some people in some parts of the country, now is the perfect time to think about buying a house -- Campbell.
C. BROWN: Ali Velshi for us tonight. Ali, thanks.
And if you are thinking of buying, go to CNN.com/moneyandmainstreet. There you will find an online calculator to help you figure out what your mortgage payment will be. That is at CNN.com/moneyandmainstreet.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few moments. As we mentioned, he's got Michael Moore plus Ed Norton on his new behind the scenes look at the Obama campaign. And up next, tonight's "Guilty Pleasure." The video we just can't resist, the 5-year-old who may give the "Incredible Hulk" a run for his money. Wait until you see this little man flex his muscles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
C. BROWN: Larry King starts in just a few moments. But first Mike Galanos has tonight's "Guilty Pleasure," the video we just couldn't resist.
Mike, what have you got?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Campbell, you mentioned it, a 5- year-old bodybuilder. The kid's 5. His name is Giuliano Stroe (ph). He's Romanian. There he is in the house. Dad flipping on the camera and here we go.
He's 5 and he's ripped and look at these moves. I mean, these are moves of a world-class gymnast. This kid supposedly started training when he was 2 years old. Dad says he took him to the gym. Dad says, hey, he doesn't train alone. If he gets tired, we go and play. But look at him, rattling off push-ups, there, the hand stand with the chairs. It's something else. And he's even in the "Guinness Book of World Records." He is the fastest to walk on his hands for ten meters, about 33 feet, with a weighted ball between his legs.
C. BROWN: Wow.
GALANOS: Campbell, it's about time you get the little one in the gym, huh?
C. BROWN: Yes.
GALANOS: Yes.
C. BROWN: I don't think so. I'm all for little boys just playing and being little goofballs.
GALANOS: Right.
C. BROWN: And not quite into the hard Olympic training for the 5-year-old. All right.
GALANOS: I mean, you look at this. I don't know. There's no way that can be good. I mean, I may be a little bit of a crazy little league dad, but I'd never --
C. BROWN: No?
GALANOS: We're not pumping the iron at age 2.
C. BROWN: OK.
GALANOS: Yes.
C. BROWN: Probably a good idea. Mike Galanos, appreciate it, Mike. Thanks a lot.
GALANOS: Thanks, Campbell.
C. BROWN: We'll see you tomorrow.
That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
