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JOY BEHAR SHOW
Leno Expresses Interest in Returning to `Tonight` Show; Interview with Jodie Sweetin
Aired November 3, 2009 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, Kate Gosselin keeps on talking about Jon.
And Jay Leno says he would like to talk, but on his old show.
Then on her new book "Unsweetined" child star Jodie Sweetin says her life after "Full House" was full of alcohol and drugs. She`ll be here to discuss.
And Quiverfull, evangelical women who have as many as 18 kids because they believe children are gifts from God. Couldn`t they ask God for a crock pot?
All that and more tonight.
Ok, this week Rihanna, a singer; a Jay Leno, a comic; and Kate Gosselin, the reality show star and ratings grabber extraordinaire put some pop in pop-culture with controversial remarks they made.
Here`s how Kate Gosselin who`s getting a doctorate in crying has been handling the split from her husband Jon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": I don`t let out how hard it is -- very much. I`m awake in the middle of the night, thinking. Am I making the best decision?
So I have meltdowns. I have nights where the weirdest dumbest thing will just make me fall apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Night sweats? I think she`s going through menopause and doesn`t know it. And when she referred to the weirdest, dumbest thing, was she actually talking about to Jon? No.
Joining me to discuss this and more are: comedienne Caroline Rhea; Dawn Yanek, editor-at-large for "Life & Style Weekly" and Joe Levy, or Levy whatever it is.
JOE LEVY, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, MAXIM: Levy.
BEHAR: Editor-in-chief of "Maxim".
Ok, Caroline, let me start with you.
CAROLINE RHEA, COMEDIENNE: All right.
BEHAR: She apologized for being so mean to Jon on the show. Is it too late for them to get back? Please tell me they can get back together again?
DAWN YANEK, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, LIFE & STYLE WEEKLY: That`s so romantic.
RHEA: Hasn`t this woman suffered enough with that hair cut?
BEHAR: And the rest of America, yes.
RHEA: You know what? When prince charming left Snow White, she missed him, too. There were just the dwarfs. What, of course she misses him, she needs a personal assistant. She has eight children.
RHEA: How do they have any, first of all, people don`t know this, but I don`t know if you have children yet.
BEHAR: Not yet.
YANEK: Not yet.
RHEA: But your libido is in your placenta and it`s removed at birth. And very smart mammals eat there. So I don`t know how...
BEHAR: Where are you getting your information?
RHEA: I have a baby and after eight children there is just no way that they...
BEHAR: Maybe her brain was in her placenta, not her libido.
RHEA: I feel bad for her.
BEHAR: Ok, she said that she`s still in love with Jon. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you to still love Jon?
K. GOSSELIN: A part of me always will. It`s hard to be married to somebody, I think, for ten years and try to say, no, I don`t love them anymore. It doesn`t really work really well. I love the memories that we have together of the good times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Oh, the good times. I`m sure she meant good times like these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
K. GOSSELIN: The white sandals.
JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": No, I`m saying flip-flops. Just let them wear what they want to wear so I don`t have to hear it all day.
K. GOSSELIN: What so we lose their shoes and then they have nothing to wear?
J. GOSSELIN: Lose their shoes.
K. GOSSELIN: Listen, I have enough to keep track of. This is what I`m saying stand with me or stand against me.
J. GOSSELIN: Well, I`ll talk in here because I`m sick of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Fun, fun, fun.
LEVY: That is riveting TV?
LEVY: That is good stuff? Can we roll the rest of that? Because I`ve got about five hours to spare, I want to see what happens with those shoes.
RHEA: I want to see her go in the room, that where she keeps his balls. He`s never -- oh, I`m sorry.
BEHAR: It`s all right.
RHEA: Oh, I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Now Dawn, you`re the expert on pop culture. She hasn`t slammed Jon since they split. Is she taking the high road or is she worried about her career? What do you think?
YANEK: Oh, I think it`s a combination of those two things. It`s like look, of course, she`s mourning the loss of her marriage. It is like a death when you split up with somebody, especially after having with then for so long.
Then of course, there`s the cynical part of me that works at "Life & Style Weekly" that says, of course she is being PR-savvy and she is trying to make sure she has a career after this marriage has dissolved.
RHEA: It`s hard to take pauses like that. You know what it is like in acting...
BEHAR: Pregnancy is very hard.
RHEA: Do you think that long, it`s like David Mamet pauses, it`s just like oh, "Oh my God, I had another child that last five."
BEHAR: You know Jon, Jon by the way, is getting counseling from Rabbi Shmuley. Is he a reformed man now or what?
LEVY: Michael Jackson also got counseling from Rabbi Shmuley.
LEVY: So I think maybe Rabbi Shmuley is not the ticket here.
YANEK: I love Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. I love him in "Kosher Sex."
BEHAR: I know.
YANEK: Perhaps maybe the best way to apologize to your ex-wife and children and family...
YANEK: ... is not in-front of a bunch of strangers at a Jewish center but perhaps at home in private.
YANEK: This is true.
RHEA: You look directly into the camera and you say, I`m very sorry, your turn and now they do it.
BEHAR: Ok, let`s do another story.
RHEA: I can`t believe Kate Gosselin was one of those people who pimped her children. Oh my God he`s been feeding my baby.
LEVY: And by the way that baby has much better hair than Kate Gosselin.
RHEA: Can I just tell you...
LEVY: It`s just too much that do.
BEHAR: All right.
RHEA: I`m sorry, I was...
BEHAR: All right, that`s enough with the babies.
RHEA: You know what everyone.
BEHAR: She`s just horrible.
RHEA: Everyone is going to be ovulating because she`s so cute ok.
BEHAR: We`re having some women on later who actually have like 18 children some of them. So stay tuned for that.
But anyway, let`s switch gears.
Jay Leno said if the NBC suits asked him to, he would return to the "Tonight" show. Now...
YANEK: They`re not old enough to wear suits. He`ll be waiting forever.
BEHAR: They`re 12 I know.
YANEK: Their 12-year-olds used to run that network.
BEHAR: But should Conan be worried? Joe?
LEVY: You know, Conan should be worried just because he`s been following Jay Leno for years. They make a change, they put Conan on the "Tonight Show" and they moved Jay in front of him.
The Porsche mo (ph) is in the same situation he`s always been in and we`re still talking about Jay Leno.
Hey, look, you know what I`m available, too. If the NBC suits ask me to host the "Tonight Show" I`ll do it, will you do it?
RHEA: First of all, I love Conan and Jay Leno is in denial that he ever left television or retired. He`s on "The Tonight Show" in daylight savings, that`s all he`s doing. I would be so pissed if I were Conan. They should never have let him stay.
BEHAR: Why? Were you`re not, why should be Jay pissed to, Jay should be pissed, too.
RHEA: Well then, why did he agree to leave?
BEHAR: They ruined his career.
RHEA: You know oh, really? Drive around one of your 452 cars and go tell jokes, which is what you do and leave Conan alone.
BEHAR: Do you really think that did this on his own? Don`t you think that they pushed him into this?
BEHAR: He was perfectly happy, he was kicking butt over there with high ratings then they give him this 10:00 slot because they want the younger version, which you and I should be a little annoyed at and you two maybe soon.
RHEA: Well, excuse me. I am way closer to their age. Thanks a lot. Ok, go ahead.
LEVY: This is getting a little brutal.
RHEA: I believe Joe and I are almost the same age.
BEHAR: And the other thing is that Letterman`s numbers have gone up since the sex scandal. How do you like that? Like 13 percent increase in the ratings, Dawn.
YANEK: Yes, it`s absolutely hilarious.
But of course, he didn`t commit the ultimate sin of ratings, which is he didn`t switch time slots. So of course, he`s one up -- his viewers stood by him where as Jay Leno is like, "Oh, wait you`re on a 10:00 hour, oh I can`t do this anymore. I don`t know what to do."
BEHAR: Is that what happened?
RHEA: Why does anybody care about Letterman`s affair, why did they did not care, like I understand if it was a nurse and a doctor and they have an affair and it doesn`t work out and she passes him the wrong scalpel and somebody dies. Do you know what I mean?
RHEA: But this is a comedian, who is beloved by all and yet he`s...
BEHAR: What do you mean he`s beloved by all, what kind of a blanket statement is that?
RHEA: I love Letterman.
BEHAR: Well, you know you love him and Conan, we`ve heard that.
BEHAR: What about Leno, you don`t seem to love Leno.
RHEA: Well, apparently you have some bitter romance with him.
BEHAR: I love Leno, I love Leno, yes.
RHEA: You love Leno more than Letterman?
BEHAR: Yes, I do. I do and I don`t think this would have happened to Jay Leno. I think that there`s...
RHEA: No because nobody who have slept with him. There is a reason. Lots of people love Letterman and that`s why.
BEHAR: That is not true.
RHEA: There is a waiting list for Letterman, I`m sure...
BEHAR: Plenty of people have slept with Leno, in the days before he married Mavis (ph).
I happen to know a few of them.
RHEA: Oh, really?
Am I seeing any of them?
BEHAR: No, you`re not.
BEHAR: You know me, I`ve been married forever.
RHEA: You are not even married.
BEHAR: I am not married but I am in a relationship -- you will excuse me - - I am as good as married.
RHEA: I agree I`m in a relationship just like that.
BEHAR: Well, goody for you.
LEVY: You know, I`ve the feeling that I`m in a relationship just like -- sitting here right now.
BEHAR: Any way, I think that Letterman`s numbers went up because people went there for the sex scandal and stayed.
LEVY: I think his numbers went up because people tuned in after the sex scandal and they found he`s still funny. He`s been funny the whole time. Nobody had any reason to check. They were all lulled to sleep by Jay Leno saying, you know what happened today? Nothing happened. And it was funny.
BEHAR: This assault on Jay Leno cannot stand on this show. I will not have it.
RHEA: First of all, aren`t you allowed to have your guests have opinions? We`re all going to be like, "We love Jay Leno."
BEHAR: You`re going to disagree with me but I`m going fire right back. Who do you think is going to retire first? Letterman or Leno because they`re in the same age bracket. Like us.
RHEA: You know what, I swear to God. Your age is on the tip of my tongue right now.
BEHAR: We can bleep anything.
RHEA: Faye Dunaway who is I believe two years younger than Joy...
BEHAR: But looks like my mother.
RHEA: Faye Dunaway once said to me, people our age. And she went like this and I`m like, excuse me. I`m in my 40s, you`re over 100. Do not combine our ages, ok. Who do you think of? Caroline or Faye or Joy?
BEHAR: Who do you think is going to retire first? Letterman or Leno?
RHEA: Oh, goodness. I don`t know.
BEHAR: Or Conan.
What if Conan is the first one to retire?
YANEK: I think Leno is.
It seems like Leno is going to take his cars, and just go off the air and just do his own thing.
BEHAR: Here`s the thing. Leno will go on the road. He works in Vegas every weekend. He`s on the road constantly.
He spends not one dime of his television money. He only lives on his comedian money because he`s smart. How do you like that?
RHEA: What does he do with his television money?
BEHAR: He stores it in the cars, I don`t know.
YANEK: He`s thinking of buying Oprah.
BEHAR: This was so much fun to see you guys. Thank you. Come again.
RHEA: Be more sincere.
BEHAR: I`m serious.
If you`re in New York City Saturday, be sure to catch Ms. Caroline Rhea at the New York Comedy Festival performing in "Afterbirth".
RHEA: It`s funny parents.
BEHAR: Stories you won`t read in a parenting magazine. It must be funny if it`s got after birth in it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry, but it`s time for your appointment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what appointment would this be?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your hair cut appointment with Mr. Stephanie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on Uncle Jesse, let`s play beauty parlor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uncle Jesse doesn`t want to play beauty parlor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he does.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No he doesn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes he does.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No he doesn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s an old story by now; a big star as a child and a bigger mess as a young adult. My next guest knows the tale all too well. She went from that little girl you just saw starring on TV`s "Full House" to being addicted to crystal meth.
She chronicles her rise, fall and redemption it in her new book, "Unsweetined," Jodie Sweetin. Hi, thanks for coming on the show, Jodie.
JODIE SWEETIN, FORMER CHILD STAR: Hi. Thank you so much. It`s a pleasure to be here.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about your life a little bit.
You had your first drink -- you started drinking at a young age.
SWEETIN: Yes, I did. I had my first drink around 13 or 14.
BEHAR: Where were you?
SWEETIN: I was actually at Candace Cameron`s wedding. And that was the first time that I really remember drinking and getting drunk and it was a really ugly scene.
BEHAR: What kind of drink? What kind of booze were you drinking?
SWEETIN: And it was really red wine. I remember them...
BEHAR: It`s good for your heart but not at 14.
SWEETIN: No, not at 14. And not when you`re drinking 3 bottles at once.
But you know, I just remembered. Then they started pouring where I was sitting. And then they started going around the table. And by the time they got back around the table, I had like drunk the whole glass so they poured more.
It was already an indication, as much as I could get as quickly as I could get.
BEHAR: Was anybody watching you?
SWEETIN: I remember my mom was upset when we got to the wedding because she found out that I was sitting all the way across the room at a different table. And I remember my mom thinking that this is not...
BEHAR: She just wanted to keep an eye on you?
SWEETIN: Right. Right. She knew I would probably get myself into some trouble. And I did. And I did.
And that was sort of the beginning of a history of the -- the drinking and using and using that as sort of a way to cope.
BEHAR: The next thing was you started -- you drank in high school and you also smoked pot.
SWEETIN: Right. I drank in high school, you know, smoked pot here and there. Really didn`t experiment with any harder drugs until I got into college. I tried cocaine a few times and stuff. But nothing -- it wasn`t really a frequent thing. I was still drinking mostly then. My drinking progressed very quickly and got out of control really quickly even in college.
BEHAR: And the crystal meth?
SWEETIN: That didn`t start until my early 20s actually between the time of going college and starting my heavier drug use. I actually was sober for a little over three (ph) years. I said I was sober but I really wasn`t in recovery doing any of the things that I needed to do in order to remain sober, but I wasn`t drinking or using at that time.
BEHAR: I see. But you got married?
SWEETIN: I got married during that time. I got married when I was 20.
BEHAR: And you married a policeman?
SWEETIN: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: You were using during that period?
SWEETIN: I wasn`t using when we got married. I was -- a little bit into our marriage I started drinking again thinking that maybe it would be different this time. Maybe I just didn`t know what I was doing; that I was too young to really have a problem with alcohol.
I started drinking again, but then you know, it became easier to hide the drug use than it was to hide the drinking.
BEHAR: From a cop.
BEHAR: How did you do that?
SWEETIN: You know what? It took a lot -- it was a lot of emotionally exhausting covering lies. It was constantly trying be two people and trying to make up excuses for where I was and what I was doing and who I was with.
BEHAR: But he didn`t detect -- I mean, did people around you detect anything? I was reading that the side effects of crystal meth are slurred speech, sweating, convulsions and incessant conversation.
BEHAR: It would be hard not to notice. It`s almost like the person who would be with you would be purposely not noticing.
SWEETIN: Well, the thing is this. It`s that -- what`s frightening is that my behavior was a little erratic at times. I wouldn`t show up, I would be late, things like that. But the things that you just mentioned, I really didn`t have those sorts of side effects.
BEHAR: You didn`t?
SWEETIN: I would be up all night. He works all night so he wouldn`t be home. He`d come home in the morning and then I would pretend to be sleeping. And then I would get up when really I hadn`t slept and just continue going. He would sleep in the day and go back to work at night.
BEHAR: But they did all find out eventually.
SWEETIN: Yes. They did all find out.
BEHAR: How did they do that?
SWEETIN: The story I talk about in the book is that I went out one night, the night I was drinking and I was using, I managed to get really drunk and wind up with acute alcohol poisoning and heart arrhythmia.
I got out of my friend`s car while she was driving down the street and passed out on the sidewalk for about an hour and while they were deciding what to do, whether they should call the cops. They were freaking out because they didn`t want to let the police know because my husband worked in that area.
There was a lot going on. And that was actually how everyone found out because I wound up going the hospital. And you know, some friends found the drugs in my purse and told my husband about it. That was how everything kind of came down the first time.
So it was, you know, it really wasn`t my own choice to get sober at that point. I knew I needed to do something different.
BEHAR: You were forced into it?
SWEETIN: I knew I needed to change things but I don`t think that I was at a point in my life where I was really ready to get honest and to do a lot of the work that it takes of my own choosing in order to get and to stay sober.
BEHAR: You had a couple of setbacks after that. We`ll get to that in the next -- in the next segment.
We`ll be right back with more from Jodie Sweetin. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody`s in here. Steph, what are you doing here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just hanging around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She grew up in front of America on the sitcom "Full House." But she did her drugs behind closed doors.
I`m back with "Full House" star Jodie Sweetin and author of the new book, "Unsweetined". Your story is so familiar in a certain way to people who watch television because the list of child stars that have had a hard time with drugs and alcohol: I mean, Lindsay Lohan, Danny Bonaduce, Britney Spears, Todd Bridges, Dana Plato, Tatum O`Neal, Corey Feldman, Macaulay Culkin and Michael Jackson.
I mean, what is the reason that child stars have such troubles, do you think? I mean, there are some that didn`t.
SWEETIN: There are some that didn`t. I think that there are two things. It`s kind of what came first, the chicken or the egg. The personality type that is precocious at a young age, that is drawn to performing and talent and all that kind of stuff has sort of some of these issues of insecurities and so they`re compensating by performing.
Are those some of the things that might be underlying all that addictive behavior? And then do all of the permissiveness of being in Hollywood, the business, growing up in an adult business, being allowed to do things at an early age? That plays into it too and adds on an extra later.
So I think it`s kind of a combination of things. I don`t think one necessarily makes the other but I think...
BEHAR: Do you think you were unprotected by the family, let`s say?
SWEETIN: Not at all. My family was incredibly involved. My parents did everything that they could. My parents were -- my mom was with me on the set every day. My dad was a very normal working parent.
I came from a very normal, un-Hollywood background. My parents provided me with every sort of normal upbringing that they could.
BEHAR: You`ve gotten better, obviously. You have a child now.
SWEETIN: I do, I have Zoe, she`s almost 19 months old, absolutely beautiful, amazing. She`s a little bumblebee for Halloween. She`s just the light of my life. She really, really is and has helped me in getting sober.
BEHAR: How is your financial situation? Did you save your money?
SWEETIN: I had and I had invested it in a house and things like that. I blew a lot of it. But, you know, things are a lot better now. I`m back working again and doing, you know, trying to get back in doing what I love.
It`s been a struggle and I wasn`t always responsible with my money. I was able to...
BEHAR: You know the term young and foolish.
SWEETIN: Yes, I know it very well.
BEHAR: That was you.
SWEETIN: Yes, I know.
BEHAR: You`re not now.
We have a question from somebody who tweeted us. This is from Kelly Skinnerwalker (ph). And she says, "What is the one piece of advice you could give every child star?"
SWEETIN: The one piece of advice -- I would say find somebody that you can talk to that you trust. That kind of goes across the board but I`d say it`s really different as a child star. There are not a lot of people that you can relate to. Try and find somebody that you can open up and be honest with.
BEHAR: You still have your parents.
SWEETIN: You do have your parents. But I think somebody that has been through it. There are a lot of things that nobody else, unless they`ve been through it, can really understand.
BEHAR: Like some of the ones who actually did well, like Ron Howard. Ron Howard is an example of somebody who did very well.
Thanks very much for coming on the show.
SWEETIN: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
BEHAR: Good luck to you.
SWEETIN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Back in a minute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m Destiny, I`m 8 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m Judah. I`m 10.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m Heather, I`m 18.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m Courtney, I`m 15.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m Shawn, I`m 26.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would love to have more children. After Leviticus, we haven`t had more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Most of us are familiar with Jon and Kate, the octomom, and the Duggar family. And it seems like every time I turn around, parents with lots of kids are multiplying like: I`m not sure even rabbits could keep up. The woman you just saw is part of a fast growing Christian movement known as Quiverfull. She and other believe that family planning should be left in God`s hands. Here with me now are Rachel Scott, a mother of 8, and the author of Birthing God`s Mighty Warriors. Kathryn Joyce, author of Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement. And Vyckie Garrison a mother of 7 and Quiverfull drop out. Greetings ladies, welcome to the show.
BEHAR: Good to see you. OK, Kathryn, a lot of people don`t even know what Quiverfull is - so since you wrote a about it as a thing, why don`t you tell us what it is.
KATHRYN JOYCE, AUTHOR: Sure. Well Quiverfull is a movement, largely contraceptive Christians, largely home schooling evangelicals who believe that all or most forms of contraception are wrong. And that Christian families should instead leave their fertility completely in the hands of God. That they should do this, as both, a measure of their faith and their obedience in God, and also, some different books by leaders of the movement have pointed out for kind of a collateral benefit of having many children within the conservative Christian movement. They follow psalm 127 -- which is where they take the name Quiverfull from. And generally they follow strict definitions of patriarchal gender roles with submissive wives and headship of the husbands. So wives be submissive to their husbands.
BEHAR: Rachel, you`re a Quiverfull person. Are you a submissive wife too?
RACHEL SCOTT, MOTHER AND AUTHOR: I believe that my husband and I have an equal partnership. But in matters of dispute, I would say that the two of us make decisions pretty much together as team. So I think submission is misunderstood.
BEHAR: So it`s not the total patriarchy that it`s painted - as in the film piece that I saw.
SCOTT: I don`t believe that is total accurate depiction of Quiverfull actually, so, no.
BEHAR: Vyckie, do you agree with that?
VYCKIE GARRISON, FORMER QUIVERFULL: I believe that there is the potential, there is the teaching there. Each family I believe each family carries to it their own - and our family went to the extreme. And so depending on the personality of the family that you`re involved with, you can get carried away with it.
BEHAR: OK so some husbands are more patriarchal than others.
BEHAR: OK. All right, that makes sense. Rachel your book is called Birthing God`s Mighty Warriors. It makes it seem like it`s some sort of crusade. Is it?
SCOTT: In a sense the bible talks about us all being in a spiritual battle with light and darkness. So yes, we believe that one of the things that God has called us to do in marriage is birth children. That`s what "be fruitful and multiply" was a commandment to the entire earth to birth children. So -- it`s not a new concept. It`s been here since the beginning of time.
BEHAR: To what?
SCOTT: To give birth to children, to procreate. I believe that that`s something we are supposed to do in all marriages. Not just Christian marriages.
BEHAR: But a lot of that scripture was written by men, correct?
SCOTT: That was actually written by God. Yes.
BEHAR: And he`s a man. Are you sure of that?
SCOTT: Yes I believe he is. I do believe he loves women very much.
BEHAR: Certainly does, all those kids, just shows you. I`m so -- I have to jump to something before I get to the political part of this. Who breast feeds these kids. You have how may?
SCOTT: I have eight I breast fed them all.
BEHAR: Do you have twins or triplets in there?
BEHAR: Just one at a time you gave birth with your lovely figure still. And you just popped them out and breast feed these children one at a time.
SCOTT: Yes. Did you not breast feed?
BEHAR: I did but I only had one. Hey, it`s a cake walk with one.
SCOTT: But it`s still a great experience.
BEHAR: Great experience. I don`t know if I could do it eight times though, I mean, really there`s so much filth if you get --
GARRISON: I didn`t pop mine out.
GARRISON: I didn`t pop mine out. I had a very difficult time.
BEHAR: No, you had trouble right?
GARRISON: Very difficult time. Very difficult.
BEHAR: How many do you have?
GARRISON: I have seven children.
BEHAR: And they were all difficult for you.
GARRISON: Yes five by c-section. So it -- it was quite a --
BEHAR: What do you say to people; maybe Kathryn can answer this, who say that you`re having children for political purposes. That you`re trying to - you call it repopulate the world with babies that you produce. And that it`s not just about having a baby to have children and ah have a family life but more like to -- to make a point almost, to like recreate the earth.
KATHYRN JOYCE, AUTHOR: Well for us, I believe we`re just, we believe that we`re being blessed with these children. We`re not doing it for a political purpose. We`re doing it for a spiritual purpose in a sense that we want to be on God`s team. He said to populate the earth and we love God, so a child`s a blessing. And we enjoy that blessing.
BEHAR: Well do you feel the same way about let say an Islamic family that would have 12 children to repopulate? Do you feel the same way about them?
JOYCE: Do I believe they`re doing it politically? Is that what you`re asking me?
BEHAR: No, do you think that it God`s will for them to also do what you`re doing? You do?
SCOTT: Actually when God said be fruitful and multiply, the neatest thing about it was that it was not for a specific religion. It was for people of the earth.
BEHAR: I see, Kathryn?
JOYCE: I think that there`s truth to what both of you are saying. I think for families having this large of a number of children. That`s a very demanding thing. And I don`t think political motivations really could compel anybody to raise and nurture 8 children and usually home school as well. However, in a lot of literature of this movement, which I reviewed, from my book including Rachel`s book, there is a sense that in addition to Quiverfull being God`s will and God`s law to be fruitful and multiply to trust God to give you as many children as you can handle, there`s a secondary set of motivations that are written in there by the leaders, saying, if several generations of Christians put their fertility in God`s hands, then within a few decades, we`re going to have a vastly increase numbers and we`re going to be able to enact some of the culture war principles that we`re fighting for.
BEHAR: What do you say to that?
SCOTT: Well right now the fastest growing segment of society is Latinos. If you look at the figures, I think it`s one -
BEHAR: They`re mostly Christians.
SCOTT: Catholic? I don`t know if they are politically but you know they say that -
BEHAR: Well Catholics are Christian.
SCOTT: Yes but they`re not all predominantly Catholic anymore Latinos I would say historically they have been. But now things are changing. So they`re the fastest growing segment of who is actually producing in our society.
BEHAR: Are you trying to keep up with them?
SCOTT: Uh, no, not necessarily. But I do believe that Christian influence will gain more power as we have more children. But I wouldn`t say like she said that`s not really the motivation. I mean we`re just doing it because we know it`s something God wants us to do. If we change society, great, it would be great. There are things in our society - our country needs an answer right now. And family is the answer, it really is. There`s nothing greater than a family. And I believe it`s the answer for our world.
BEHAR: Well it`s a very expensive thing that you`re doing.
BEHAR: I mean to have all those children in this culture is very, very expensive. Just to say the least, what does your husband do? Do you work?
SCOTT: Yes, I work part time. My husband is a construction executive. So for us, we live in affluent area and but it hasn`t always been that way. And we`ve paid our deuce and that sort of thing.
BEHAR: OK when we come back, I want to hear more about the physiological part of this because I was not thrilled with one pregnancy, much less 8, or 18. But that`s me. Stick around there could be even more babies when we get back.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
I believe conceiving children and giving birth is an act of worship, most definitely. Because I believe you`re submitting to God`s goal for the planet and God`s goal for you as a woman. And to me, it`s the most beautiful thing to watch unfold just about in the whole world. And that is when a woman embraces her own motherhood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NADY A SULEMAN: OCTOMOM: There`s eight of them here. And here we have Maciah. And the one crying just came home, Jonah. And the right there is, who`s that? This is Noah. Jeremiah is right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: We`re back talking with families with multiple children. Now to I`m sure you`re all familiar with the octomom. She has 14 children at this point. She has no husband, she was on welfare. And she`s not part of the movement, I don`t think. How would you help this woman, Rachel? She has no husband no income, really.
SCOTT: What would I say to her?
BEHAR: Yes, what should she do?
SCOTT: OK. I think she should pray a lot.
BEHAR: OK I think she does that, already.
SCOTT: Yes trust God a lot. And get as much outside help as she possibly can because to do what she`s doing by herself is pretty incredible. She really needs a lot of people to help her.
BEHAR: Would you take her into your fold? Into your quiver people?
SCOTT: Oh I would help her. But I think she lives on the other side of the country for me -
BEHAR: She can move.
SCOTT: Sure I`d help her. She needs help.
. BEHAR: We`ll pay for her air fare. Won`t we have CNN - we`ll send her to you. I`m very interested in the physiology of it. I mean carrying, you say you had a hard time with that.
BEHAR: And now you`re divorced also. But how are you managing?
GARRISON: My oldest daughter, to tell the truth, I really relied on her help.
GARRISON: Yes, Angel. I really relied the help of Angel. Yes and my other kids - and we were efficient, we were extremely organized. We came up with some really creative ideas of how to get it all done. Well, how to try to get it all done. We really didn`t. We were falling behind in every area. I was falling behind in the home schooling. I couldn`t keep up. My oldest daughter burned out, and she was 18. She had just had it.
BEHAR: She had a suicide attempt. I saw the film piece about her. I think she was overburdened by the work of it.
BEHAR: Because you couldn`t handle it. Then -- it fell to her and the kid couldn`t take it.
GARRISON: Somebody pays the price. And I think it`s the older girls in the family.
BEHAR: So you think that your older girl paying the price?
SCOTT: I don`t because from the very beginning, I purposed my kids would have a life. And they do. They`re dancers. They`re very active in school. My daughter is on crew team. So for me, yes, they helped. But they have all these other things they do.
BEHAR: And since you don`t practice birth control and you believe you should have children as long as God wants you to, do you ever say, I have a headache? And say look, not tonight, I can`t. Do you ever say that?
SCOTT: I don`t.
BEHAR: You don`t. Did you ever say that Vyckie?
GARRISON: Oh I was so exhausted. I was so burned out.
BEHAR: You never say - she was exhausted.
GARRISON: But had a vision I had an inspiration this was my purpose which the Lord had given me. And I was determined to do it whatever the cost. If it was going kill me, I was willing. I really had - that far into and it almost did in several occasions. --
BEHAR: It almost did, and your daughter.
GARRISON: It was that vision, that extremely inspiring idea of this beautiful, this perfect family and that is what I was going for. I was really wants to do the lord`s will, his best plan for the family, which I believed was defined in the bible. And so there was a very narrow idea of what is a family, what is the right correct godly family. That`s what I was going for.
BEHAR: But it didn`t work for you. It did for you, not for her. So one size does not fit all in this idea. How many people Kathryn are into this?
SCOTT: There have not been any scientific or sociological studies on this. So there are no hard numbers. But my estimate is it`s probably if the low tens of thousands, maybe 20,000 to 30,000 based on different memberships in different online forums and associated groups.
BEHAR: What do you say to people who say it`s selfish to keep having these children? You know, there are so many children to adopt. What do you say to these?
SCOTT: You know a lot of families of Quiverfull families do adopt. They love - the whole thing about Quiverfull is a mind set of loving children and wanting children from God. And a lot of them adopt. They have a few and start adopting. So the more the merrier thing with a lot of the families. And I would consider it myself. I mean, it`s - I love kids.
BEHAR: You want to adopt more kids?
SCOTT: we`re thinking about it.
BEHAR: How much does it cost the feed them?
SCOTT: It`s expensive.
BEHAR: You have how many? Seven?
SCOTT: I have eight.
BEHAR: You have 8 children and the oldest is how old?
BEHAR: So that one is he - he -
SCOTT: Right so I have seven at home and a grandchild.
BEHAR: And the other thing about this Quiverfull thing is that you home- school all the children. I mean you`re cooking, you`re cleaning, you`re wiping their nose, they get sick in the night, they break a leg. They fall off the swing and you have to teach them, too, and have sex with your husband constantly, I can`t take it. I just can`t even imagine day at your house.
SCOTT: Not everyone in the Quiverfull movement home schools. I don`t home school.
BEHAR: You don`t do that?
SCOTT: No, I`ve done it off and on. But -- as, see what I believe about home schooling is pray and ask God about it each time.
BEHAR: How do you have time to coif and put eye makeup on? And look as good as you do? When do you find the time?
SCOTT: You have to be organized. But you know, it`s a zoo around the house sometimes. But a lot of times you just have to be an organized mother.
BEHAR: What is your status right now Vyckie?
GARRISON: My status?
BEHAR: Yes are you married? You`re not married?
GARRISON: No, I am divorced.
BEHAR: How many children are at home?
GARRISON: I have five children still at home, two are in college. And it`s a zoo at our house. We have a great time though because all of the restrictions we have thrown them away. We have said, let`s go for it, be ourselves. And do what comes naturally. We don`t have prescribed rules anymore. This is God`s will for you. But it`s basically, let`s figure out.
BEHAR: What is God`s provision - I don`t want to be disrespectful - but what is the provision for divorce? What if you don`t get along with your husband? A lot of people in the country get divorced. What happens then?
SCOTT: Right 50% or more.
BEHAR: What happens then?
GARRISON: In my mind there was no provision for divorce. I believed there was no -- BEHAR: There`s no provision for it? So what happens? You`re just stuck in the middle? A miserable marriage then?
GARRISON: Well I did not -- I had convinced myself that I was not stuck, I enjoyed it, that I was fine with it. But it wasn`t, it was when I finally had the near breakdown after my daughter attempted suicide that I had to re-evaluate it all. And I finally had to say look at what the situation actually is, not what it can be, what I hope it could be. What God could possibly make of it. What is it actually? Actually, I can`t take this, it`s too much.
BEHAR: And your children, how are they doing now that you`re out of the Quiverfull?
GARRISON: Oh they`re just blooming, blossoming. They`re doing awesome. They`re having a great time.
BEHAR: How is Angel doing?
GARRISON: She`s doing incredibly better.
BEHAR: She`s doing much better.
GARRISON: Oh yes.
BEHAR: Kathryn do you know how many of these Quiverfull families split up?
JOYCE: I don`t know how many. But I think I would reiterate what Vyckie said. From a lot of the literature, there`s a lot of biblical womanhood literature which is kind of educational materials for women in the movement. And it really stresses that divorce is not an option. It`s your duty to make marriage work.
BEHAR: See to me that sounds a little too restrictive for me. If you`re unhappy, or let`s say, the husband, you know this patriarchy thing, let`s talk about it. You say you`re in an equal relationship with your husband..
SCOTT: I am and I don`t believe that the -- when Kathryn wrote her book, unfortunately I think she kind of confused a few issues in the sense that there`s Quiverfull - there`s home schoolers and then there`s this patriarchy thing. Which I personally have never heard off. I`m not quite sure that I understand --
BEHAR: Who are the patria - who are the ones that listen to their husbands?
JOYCE: Sure, I think Rachel is -- I`m very glad to hear that`ll that you`re in an equal relationship I think in a lot of the movement --
BEHAR: She sounds fine.
JOYCE: I think in a lot of the movement, there`s an overwhelming emphasis on wives` duties to be submissive to their husbands. And that can look like a lot of different things that can work. It can look like an unequal marriage.
BEHAR: Why does it work, I mean.
SCOTT: There`s more people trying -
JOYCE: Like abuse.
SCOTT: You`re correct. It could look like abuse to people who don`t understand it. But there are more people trying to get into this than trying to get out of it. And if you, the Catholic Church actually keeps records of people who - they actually have records on how many people who don`t use birth control divorce. It`s 1%. GARRISON: If you wanted to get a divorce though and got half a dozen kids, you don`t have a lot of options there. It`s a scary thing.
JOYCE: Very hard for women to leave when most of them, you work part time, but I think most women in the Quiverful movement do not have a college degree.
SCOTT: Oh, no, that is so not true. That is so not true.
JOYCE: The younger women are being encouraged not to go to college.
SCOTT: maybe in a very, very remote segment. Quiverful has gone main stream. And we`re talking a lot of people have college educations who decide to have large families. It`s everywhere now. It`s definitely changing.
BEHAR: Yes. I hope so.
BEHAR: We`ll be back in a minute. Because the patriarchy just doesn`t work in my opinion
BEHAR: And we`re back and we`re talking about the Quiverful movement. And you were saying, Rachel, that God is a feminist.
BEHAR: What do you mean by that?
SCOTT: Well when God was creating the earth he created Eve, he created Adam. And then he brought Eve. And Eve was his crowning glory. Eve was woman and God said, OK, I`m stopping creation. I`m done. I`ve created the greatest masterpiece is a woman.
BEHAR: I have to say that patriarchies scare me because when men are in charge of everything it almost follows women are subjugated. It almost follows in every instance. I like it more when women are in charge. Even in my family I grew up in an Italian matriarch. The women told everybody what to do. I like that better because I feel safer with women than men.
GARRISON: Something that`s interesting about the Quiverful movement, though, is that I found that a lot of times it is the woman who leads the family into the Quiverful and Patriarchy. They`re the ones going to the conventions, they`re buying the books, reading the material and saying, you know, it`s a way to say, I need a husband who is more of a leader who takes more charge of what`s going on and is more involved. And That was my motivation really. I was saying, you know, I had a husband who I felt I would really appreciate if he would step up more with the child raising, with the --
BEHAR: Oh that`s everybody`s complaint. How`s your husband good like that?
SCOTT: He`s awesome.
BEHAR: Well your husband is perfect specimen.
SCOTT: To answer her, a reason women are doing this, there`s a backlash against feminism. Because feminism took us out of the home and put us in careers which is awesome because it won us rights we needed. But I believe God -- women are coming back Time magazine came out last week, women aren`t happy. We`ve got it all, tried it all --
BEHAR: Too many things to do maybe. Too much stress.
SCOTT: Right - but I think the answer is the home. So women need to get back in the home.
BEHAR: But see I have to take issue with that because your life sounds very stressful to me. Like, you have too much to do without a career.
SCOTT: Yes, there`s balance, though, as long as you`re --
BEHAR: To me it`s less stressful to go to work and have a job than stay home with 20 kids.
GARRISON: There`s no balance saying I will take all the children that God will give me. There`s no balance in saying I`ll just continue to reproduce and reproduce.
SCOTT: I think it depends on your marriage and your situation, I disagree.
BEHAR: How many more do you want to have?
SCOTT: I would to have more. As many as God will give me.
BEHAR: How old are you? How old are you?
BEHAR: Oh, forget it. Time to adopt. Time to adopt, Rachel. You can have some nice adoption situations going on.
SCOTT: No I started a ministry to Africa in my garage with a man we met from Africa and we`re talking to him about getting children from there from his orphanage.
JOYCE: I want to jump back a minute if that`s okay, regarding feminism. I think it`s great that that`s what you believe and you see God as a feminist. In most of my reporting and reading on this, I would think that was an unorthodox view within the movement because a lot of the founding movement and books written about this today about this movement are deeply anti-feminist and say that feminism is incompatible with Christianity.
BEHAR: All right I have to make that the last word. You`re just going to have to subjugate to Kathryn. You were very good, though. Thank you all, very much, ladies.
OK these ladies will be appearing on the show Secret Lives of Women Born to Breed a week from today at 10:00 p.m. on WE TV. Thanks to my other guests as well and good night everybody.