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Nancy Grace

Four More Bodies Removed From Cleveland Sex Offender`s Home

Aired November 03, 2009 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Live, Ohio. Cops raid the home of a convicted rapist accused of yet another sex attack. Inside his three-story Cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned, women`s bodies hidden throughout, bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in crawlspaces.

Bombshell tonight. Our prediction last night unfortunately, comes true, even more women`s bodies discovered. Body count so far, 10 dead women all hidden in the home of former Marine Anthony Sowell. Investigators now prepare to tear down the walls, literally scouring every square inch of Sowell`s three-story Cleveland home in search of even more victims. Tonight, unsuspecting neighbors in shock over an alleged serial killer living amongst them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, this morning, our homicide unit, along with the Cuyahoga County coroner`s office, went back to the scene, which has been secured ever since day one. During the course of their investigation throughout the day, we have discovered approximately four more bodies in the back yard and a skull in a bucket in the basement. The skull was discovered wrapped in a paper bag in a bucket in the basement.

GRACE: Dead bodies on every level of the home, including stuffed in the crawlspace. My prediction, there will be more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten bodies found at the home of convicted rapist Anthony Sowell. The dig continues (INAUDIBLE) they continue to search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that this man had an insatiable appetite that he had to fill. That`s how it appears. And everything`s right there at that location.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing people did complain about over and over again, that that place really, really smelled, and he reeked. But they thought it was that sausage factory running behind him or the fact he`s just some semi-homeless bum who just doesn`t take a shower very often. They just discounted it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not have information concerning the smells, et cetera. So as far as the police dropped the ball, I wouldn`t say we dropped the ball. We were very diligent in what we did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And breaking tonight, live, the Florida panhandle. A close- knit community reeling after a newborn baby girl sleeping in the same bedroom as her parents vanishes without a trace, Halloween. The story becomes even more distorted. But tonight, we want to know who took baby Shannon!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators in the panhandle of Florida need your help. They`re looking for a 7-month-old girl who disappeared and may be in danger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Shannon`s parents told investigators Shannon slept in the same bedroom as they did, Shannon allegedly snatched from that bedroom sometime between 3:00 and 11:00 AM on Halloween.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff said nothing indicates she was abducted. But he also said she, quote, "didn`t crawl or walk away."

GRACE: The child obviously did not walk or crawl out of the home. I don`t understand why the police are saying there`s no foul play. You have a 7-month-old baby lying there asleep in the home, now she`s gone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they seem to be pointing fingers directly at the parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors now speaking out, saying they saw a gray van near Shannon`s home that night. Investigators expanding the search area for a 7-month-old girl who they say did not walk or crawl away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. Live, Ohio. Cops raid the home of a convicted rapist accused of yet another sex attack. Inside his three-story Cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned, women`s bodies hidden throughout, bodies, dead women on every floor of the home, some of them even stuffed into the crawlspaces.

Bombshell tonight. Our prediction last night unfortunately comes true, even more women`s bodies discovered in the last 24 hours. Body count so far, 10 dead women that we know of, all hidden in the home of former Marine Anthony Sowell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news coming to us from Cleveland. More discoveries at the home of a rape suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have discovered approximately four more bodies in the back yard and a skull in a bucket in the basement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would raise the total to 10 bodies found under this man`s home. This is almost starting to reach Jeffrey Dahmer- type proportions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, the suspect, Anthony Sowell, approximately 4:00 o`clock this afternoon, he was charged with five counts of aggravated murder on John Does, at this point right now. He`s also charged with rape, kidnapping, and felonious assault, an initial complaint that led to us that house two days ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six bodies have been found at the home of a convicted rapist, Anthony Sowell. Well, this morning, four more bodies were found. So now we`re up to 10.

GRACE: Six missing women found dead. There`s going to be more. There are going to be more than six women.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue just to dig it up just to make sure we covered all our bases. As we were doing that, we discovered four more bodies in the back yard. The dig continues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The dig continues in the home of former Marine Anthony Sowell. So far, police have excavated and found 10 dead women.

Out to Dan Haggerty, joining us from WEWS, outside Sowell`s home right now, Cleveland suburbs. Dan Haggerty, thank you for being with us.

DAN HAGGERTY, WEWS CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.

GRACE: They found four more dead bodies so far. How did they not see four dead women yesterday? Where were the bodies hidden?

HAGGERTY: Well, they`ve been digging. We`ve seen them all day in the back yard. Of course, you know as soon as they start finding something, they start throwing the tarps up and keeping the camera lenses from seeing exactly what was going on there. But when I showed up early this morning (INAUDIBLE) They started finding stuff. The tarps started going up. And I`ll tell you, I`d say 100 or so people have been gathering on the street here. And right behind me (INAUDIBLE) goes back in behind (INAUDIBLE) see the backhoe back there. So they were doing some pretty serious excavating back there.

But you should have seen the looks on the people`s faces on the street here every time you saw the medical examiner`s (INAUDIBLE) back down that street to put yet another body (INAUDIBLE) the van. You`ve been saying it. Four more bodies, as well as a skull that they found in the basement. That makes 10 bodies total.

Also, Anthony Sowell is going to be arraigned tomorrow. Again, five counts of aggravated murder, as well as the rape, felonious assault and kidnapping. That was from back in September, and that`s what actually brought police (INAUDIBLE) home just on Thursday (INAUDIBLE) looking for him. He wasn`t there. But they found the bodies instead.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking some hits on our satellite. Joining us there outside Sowell`s home right now, where the dig is continuing for even more dead women, Dan Haggerty joining us from WEWS. Dan, again, thank you for being with us. This is something I don`t understand, Dan. The woman said she had been raped by Sowell back in September. Why were police just getting there in November?

HAGGERTY: Well, I don`t want to speculate exactly to what police were doing in the meantime. I assume that they were collecting evidence to put together a hard case in order to come here and make the arrest. We know that he was a sex offender. He registered. He was a tier 3 sex offender. So he actually had to go to the sheriff (INAUDIBLE) tell them where he was living, where he was working every 90 days.

We know that -- I believe it was sometime during the summer, they stopped over here and did a surprise check with him, and the sheriff`s office didn`t report anything suspicious to police at the time (INAUDIBLE) The woman who was assaulted in September, according to the police report, went to police then. It took them a series of weeks to put together a case, I assume. And that`s when they came here to serve the warrant.

They went inside looking for Sowell and found only two bodies in the attic that were so badly decomposed, they couldn`t even tell the sex at the time, and a shallow grave in the basement. Obviously, this story continues to get worse as the days go on.

GRACE: Dan Haggerty with us, WEWS, joining us in front of the home of Anthony Sowell, former Marine. He did his time as a Marine. He did several years, I believe it was about seven -- five to seven years with the Marines. He was honorably discharged. He was stationed in North Carolina and California, as I recall.

Then, after he got out of the Marines, he did 15 years behind bars on a rape. I don`t know why he was walking the streets. Apparently, he did his time. They didn`t have any more holds on him, so they had to let him go. And this is what happened.

Correct me if I`m wrong, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent joining us from In Session. Jean, didn`t he just get out, and wasn`t it 2005 he got out on a 15-year stint in the pen for rape?

JEAN CASAREZ, IN SESSION: He was convicted of two counts of attempted rape, 1990 through 2005, released. So there`s been four years now, Nancy, that he has been living in that home, a home that`s owned by his stepmother. And the four bodies that were just found in the last 24 hours, Nancy, were in the back yard. They were under the earth. They were in graves back there.

GRACE: To Stacey Newman, our producer on the story. Stacey, it`s my prediction that they will find -- that at the beginning -- and I`m using 2005, when he got out of the pen, as the beginning. He was more careful in hiding the bodies. But then, going on 10 bodies, he started getting careless and did not hide them as well.

Tell me what you know, Stacey Newman, about the neighbors. It`s my understanding they noticed something bizarre and they complained to their city councilman.

STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: This is a big bone of contention tonight, Nancy. Neighbors are reporting they smelled a foul odor for years in this neighborhood, including a city councilman that called the health inspector wanting to know where the stench was coming from. Now, there is a sausage company in this neighborhood, Nancy, Ray`s (ph) Sausage. Everyone believed the smell was coming from the sausage company.

Fast-forward to today. Uh-oh, coming from decomposing bodies inside Sowell`s Home.

GRACE: Well, another thing -- back to Dan Haggerty, joining us outside of Sowell`s home. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live. This is a stunning turn of events. Seasoned detectives go in the home on a rape charge. They have now found in the last 48 hours 10 dead women there in the Chicago (SIC) suburbs. And I guarantee you, Haggerty, if they go and they look at California and North Carolina, where he was stationed with the Marines, there are going to be women there that have never been found, never been accounted for.

Dan Haggerty, who are these 10 women so far?

HAGGERTY: Well, police haven`t said. We don`t know at this point right now. But we know that there are a whole lot of people who are showing up in this neighborhood, dozens of missing women and their families and their loved ones that have been showing up here and trying to figure out if their loved ones are one of the bodies inside of this home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the incident took place and the SWAT unit made entry and discovered the two decomposed bodies on the third floor, we put zone (ph) car (ph) personnel in the house and we secured the location. But at no time did we ever leave the scene. There was always police personnel on point to make sure everything was secure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Send us your favorite family photos for our upcoming "NG Family Album." Go to CNN.com/nancygrace.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yellow crime tape stretched around the corner from 12205 Imperial Avenue today. Cleveland police brought in heavy machinery to literally help them dig for evidence in the back yard of the house where 50-year-old Anthony Sowell lived. Police officers and a team from the coroner`s office watched to see what was unearthed. And by early afternoon, it was clear that they had found something. Experts wearing masks and special suits scurried around the house where just days ago police discovered six dismembered and decomposing bodies.

GRACE: We already have half a dozen dead women in his home that we know of, and I`m predicting there`s going to be more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now five days after that gruesome discovery, another two body bags were loaded into two coroner vehicles and taken away. And police believe there could be more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have discovered approximately four more bodies in the back yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The face of a suspected mass murderer...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect, Anthony Sowell, approximately 4:00 o`clock this afternoon, he was charged with five counts of aggravated murder. He was also charged with rape, kidnapping and felonious assault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air, the dig continues in the Cleveland suburbs. We now know of 10 dead women found in Anthony Sowell`s three-story home, including the back yard. We predict there will be more.

Joining me outside Sowell`s home this evening, Dan Haggerty with WEWS. Dan, where in the home were the women hidden?

HAGGERTY: Well, they were hidden pretty much all over the house, Nancy. There were some in the attic. That`s where they were first discovered, two bodies that were so badly decomposed, we were told, that they couldn`t even determine the sex right away. They also found bodies in a crawlspace below some stairs. They found a skull inside of a bucket in the basement. They also found bodies buried outside behind the home.

And we just saw police leaving, at least using -- with some of their bigger equipment. They had a backhoe back there all day. They just pulled that out of there. I`m sure they`re starting to shut things down slowly for the night. But they`re going to be out here tomorrow looking for more.

GRACE: Now, you said that the bodies were found in the back yard. You`re also telling me that families of missing women across Cleveland are now gathering outside the home, wondering if their daughter, their mother, their sister, their wife are one of these women.

HAGGERTY: Well, you know what? For the past several months, I know of a couple big stories we`ve had around here since around springtime, April and May. There have been posters looking for missing women. And these are all ages. These are women in their late teens all the way to in their 40s, that you`ve seen in convenience stores, that you -- that we saw at different gas stations, these posters looking for these women.

Well, now all of a sudden, there are 10 bodies that are showing up at this house in this neighborhood where a lot of these women were known to live, were known to be at times. And these families are showing up asking, you know, Is this my daughter? Like you said, Is this my mother?

GRACE: Oh! Can you imagine standing on the other side of that yellow crime scene tape, wanting to know every time they pull out a gurney...

HAGGERTY: Hundreds of people.

GRACE: ... with a woman`s body covered in a sheet, Is that my daughter? Is that my mother?

HAGGERTY: Hundreds of people.

GRACE: Oh!

HAGGERTY: And it started over the weekend. It started on Thursday and people started showing up here. I`ve been here through most of it, and there have been people here non-stop day and night waiting for answers.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "Killing for Sport." Here`s the deal, Pat. He typically used public transportation. We know that. And therefore, he could have a cache of bodies elsewhere. They don`t all have to be in his home. How do we know this is where he started? He could have started out meeting women on the other side of town, women in fields where typically they are dumped in open fields on in dumpsters. The only way now to determine if those women are connected is through possible DNA. But what do you think about changing an MO?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, you`re absolutely correct. Sometimes we lean too heavily on the MO has to be the same, on and on and on. But that`s not true. What will happen is he`ll do what`s convenient for him. So originally, if he was out walking around, maybe going through a park and sees a jogger go by, he might have grabbed her and done that.

But then one day, he found that there was a pigeon walking right through his neighborhood, and he said, Hey, you want some malt liquor? Woman says, Sure. What`s up? If she comes in, she`s dead. He says, Hey, that worked. Police never showed up. It`s easier than leaving them out there. So then he starts a new trend. But it`s only because it works.

GRACE: It has worked. Now nearly a dozen dead bodies. Unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, Christopher Amolsch, Washington, D.C. Raymond Giudice, insanity is not going to work. He hid these bodies. He continued working. He was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge.

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. Right.

GRACE: And don`t even say intoxication. We know that was his MO. Voluntary intoxication not a defense.

GIUDICE: That`s correct. And I agree with you completely. He will have a clean mental bill of health from the Marines. Remarkably, prison officials found him to be a model prisoner during those 15 years. So he has no history of mental health issues that would lead to a winnable insanity defense.

GRACE: OK. So I`m not hiring Giudice as my lawyer, if that`s what he`s got to say. Amolsch, what`s your defense?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s got to be insanity because there`s nothing else.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Seasoned detectives go into a three-story home, Cleveland area, to find at least six dead bodies, all women. And we are predicting more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do I believe there`s more bodies? I don`t know at this time. What we`re going to continue to do is search the property until we`re totally satisfied it is totally clean. That`s why we will continue overnight with the excavating. Tomorrow, we will come back with the fire department and look in the walls, ceilings, wherever we need to look to confirm that, in fact, there is nothing else there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining me outside former Marine Anthony Sowell`s home there in the Cleveland suburbs, from WEWS, Dan Haggerty. Dan, again, thank you for being with us this evening. I understand that the neighborhood said when they would walk by the home, they could smell a stench. Is that true?

HAGGERTY: Yes, it is true. And it lasted for some say months, others say years. And they describe it after the fact as the smell of death, of rotting flesh, of dead bodies. Keep in mind, though, right next door to Anthony Sowell`s house, there`s a factory that packages pork products. So many people thought that the smell might have been coming from there.

Now, I went in there today and talked to the owner of that place, and she says that that business has been there for 60 years, she`s been working there for 35 years, and that it never smelled like that. There were times during the summer on hot days where she couldn`t even work in her office. She had to leave. So they actually inspected the sewer system outside. They fixed that. It didn`t seem to cut down on the smell, either. But you know, some people said that they were in the neighborhood and didn`t smell anything.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will not know until, we identify the victims and understand their way of life, how they existed in the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The stench of death so strong neighbors gagged whenever they went past this house. Well, now we`re finding out the guy who lives there is a convicted rapist. Why didn`t anyone notice?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened today when we went back to continue our investigation, we also took some dogs with us, cadaver dogs. They weren`t successful because of the wind. But we also had a backhoe, and we continued just to dig it up just to make sure we covered all our bases. As we were doing that, we discovered four more bodies in the backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Fifty-year-old suspect. His name is Anthony Sowell. He served 15 years for rape before moving into that house in 2005.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police found the bodies during an investigation into separate rape allegations. A woman said he attacked her in that house September 22nd.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The bodies may have been there for weeks, months, possibly years.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What we`re seeing is these men that are on these sexual registries are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: If you are just joining us, a stunning series of events out of Cleveland suburbs. Police go to the home, raid the home of a convicted rapist who was back on the streets, now charged with another rape, and instead of finding evidence in that rape they find instead six dead bodies.

It is now mounting to nearly a dozen dead women. In and around his home. They are now excavating his backyard. Are there more? Put money on it.

Joining us from outside the home of former Marine, Anthony Sowell, WEWS`s Dan Haggerty.

Dan Haggerty, take me back to the very beginning. How did this unfold?

DAN HAGGERTY, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WEWS; ON THE SCENE FROM HOME WHERE BODIES FOUND: Well, we`ll start on Thursday when police first got here. It was two bodies. Then yesterday. Then this morning, we wake up thinking it`s six bodies.

Four more bodies are taken out today. Now it`s 10 bodies, including a skull that was found in the basement. Right now Anthony Sowell charged with five -- with five counts, rather, of aggravated murder. And you mentioned, he`s also charged with rape, felonious assault, and kidnapping from an incident back in September.

And that`s why police came here on Thursday. They came to serve a warrant for those charges. When they got here, he wasn`t here, Anthony Sowell. They went into the home, and that`s when they found the initial two bodies in the attic and the one shallow grave in the basement.

But as they continue to search, they continue to look through the house, they continue to dig in the backyard, they continue to find more.

GRACE: And joining me right now, Dr. Evelyn Minaya. She is a medical doctor.

Doctor, how can they tell that the three dead women in the attic were some of the first victims, at least in this burial ground anyway?

DR. EVELYN MINAYA, M.D., WOMEN`S HEALTH EXPERT: That`s a very good question. And the thing is that it`s the decomposition. Remember, they couldn`t even identify that these women were actually women. So -- and it just behooves me, I can`t understand how can you not smell that stench.

This is not just one person. This is exactly 10 bodies in different stages of decomposition. How can you not smell that? How can you not investigate it a little bit better? So that`s how you know that the person in the attic definitely was probably one of the first victims and then, you know, going outside, depending upon what phase of decomposition that they were in. We`re going to get all of that information as the investigation goes on.

GRACE: Exactly.

MINAYA: Absolutely.

GRACE: Joining me, Dr. Evelyn Minaya out of New York. And of course the corpses in the backyard may be even more well preserved because they have been buried and kept from the elements, kept from the fresh air.

Out to the lines, Rachel in Illinois. Hi, Rachel.

RACHEL, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. I have so many questions so I`m going to be real quick. The woman that allegedly fell off the window, when did that actually happen?

GRACE: OK. To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." You have studied the chronology, the time of events here, Jean Casarez. What happened when the woman came out the window?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": I think this is the 1990 incident that actually resulted in the conviction.

GRACE: Right.

CASAREZ: ... and made him a registered sex offender. The modus operandi is so similar to all of these. She was actually sitting on a love seat with him. She was a neighborhood woman. He then starts to strangle her. She fights for her life. He then begins to sexually assault her. She ran. She was able to get away. Unlike allegedly the others.

GRACE: So Jean, was she pushed out the window or did she jump to save her own life?

CASAREZ: What she said to police was that he actually fell asleep after he bound her and sexually assaulted her. She was able to take a rag out of her mouth, unbind herself. She was too scared to go out the door. She thought that would make noise, so she went out the window.

GRACE: Oh, Jean. Oh, Jean, I did not know that detail. So he bound her, stuck a rag in her mouth, sexually assaulted her. And it`s my -- you know, let me go to Stacey Newman on this.

Is his MO that he drinks heavily during these attacks? Is that why he nodded off to sleep after the rape?

STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Exactly. And we also know he has an alleged history of drug abuse as well, Nancy. Also, I want to tell you that most of these victims, of the first six bodies that were found, were strangled, which meshes with the fact that all these other allegations of these attacks, he also strangled these women, or tried to choke them as well.

GRACE: Back to Dan Haggerty joining us outside the home of former Marine Anthony Sowell where bodies are still being excavated in the backyard. Were the women clothed, Dan Haggerty?

HAGGERTY: We don`t know. We don`t know that. Those types of details, exactly what they were finding back there -- the biggest detail we received was that they found a skull in the basement. As far as the condition of a lot of these bodies or even the sex of most of them at this point, we`re still trying to wait to hear from investigators.

We do know this, though. It seems like every time they go into this house they find something more. They find more. So today -- or tomorrow, rather, they`re coming in here with the fire department, and they`re going to tear through this place wall to wall and make sure there`s nothing left to be found.

GRACE: Well, if he`s hiding dead bodies, dead women in the attic and the crawl space, the basement and the backyard, I could not exclude the walls themselves. And of course we remember in the recent case of Yale medical student Annie Le, she was hidden in the wall.

I want to go out to Paul Penzone. He is a former sergeant of Phoenix Police Department. He is with childhelp.org. He is an expert in his field.

Paul, what do you think of the possibility that there are other burial grounds of Anthony Sowell`s? We know that he frequently uses the bus. What does that mean? Nobody would be able to identify a car or get a car tag if he were frequenting an area of town where he could pick up women coming in and out of bars.

I once had a serial killer that would pick up women coming in and out of the bus station, the Rapid Transit Station. He would say hey, you want to go have a drink with me, you want to go have dinner? You know -- and they would go have dinner, then never be seen again. He had women buried all over town.

PAUL PENZONE, DIRECTOR OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP; FORMER SERGEANT, PHOENIX POLICE DEPT.: It would be irresponsible to think that that`s the only place where there are going to be victims. Depending on -- if you look at the time frame of when he was released from prison to when they finally realized what he was up to, I mean, this is horrific.

The likelihood that there are victims in other places, missing people who were never recovered and no one knows their whereabouts is extremely high. So you cannot keep your scope limited to that home. You have to expand it.

GRACE: Absolutely. And also, Paul Penzone, what about my theory that look, you don`t just start murdering out of the blue? I`m just wondering if either, A, after he did 15 years in the pen on rape, he decided to start killing his rape victims so they could not testify at trial or go to police or, B, has he been doing this for many, many years, which would include missing women in North Carolina and California where he was stationed as a Marine?

What do you think about it, Penzone?

PENZONE: I think you`re spot on because he`s predisposed for violence and he`s predisposed for sexual violence. This didn`t just happen overnight and the victims that we see with the decomposition over years obviously shows it`s been going on for some time.

So you have to expand your vision. You have to expand your search and recognize that anywhere that he was at there`s a possibility there`s a trail of victims behind.

GRACE: To Michelle Gollano, psychologist and expert. Doctor, I`m just imagining those women`s families that are all on the other side of that yellow crime scene tape and every time they pull out another body on a gurney they go, is that my mother? Is that my sister, my daughter that`s been missing the last couple of years?

MICHELLE GOLLANO, PSYD., PSYCHOLOGIST EXPERT ON MOMLOGIC.COM: I know. And being a mother, it`s horrifying. Horrifying.

I want to touch on something, Nancy, that`s really important. And when you`re speaking about the victims` families -- something that the police officer said that is very disturbing to me was the fact that he brought up that we need to know the history of these victims and why we didn`t know they were -- that they weren`t missing.

But I really question that they may have known that there were missing victims. Just as we did not know about the rape that -- on the -- a month ago, it`s because of the socioeconomic status of this community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The coroner says it could take days, even weeks to ID the bodies. At least five of them were apparently strangled.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The bodies may have been there for weeks, months, possibly years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a violent rapist. And he clearly is a sociopathic serial killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s 7 months old and can`t even crawl or walk. So just how did Shannon Dedrick vanish? Cops will say Shannon`s parents told investigators Shannon slept in the same bedroom as they did. Shannon, allegedly snatched from that bedroom sometime between 3:00 and 11:00 a.m. on Halloween.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re appealing to the public in this area of Brown Street, Win Street, if they`ve seen any suspicious activity or someone carrying a baby that they would give us a call.

GRACE: It`s not fitting together for me. They said they go to bed at 3:00 a.m.? Even if they were awake until 3:00 with the baby, I`ve never known of a baby that would sleep until 11:00, 11:30 the next morning. Babies don`t sleep in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s over 70 volunteers, officers and firefighters searching. They started out in an area right behind the house, a wooded area. And they have continued to expand the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t like it. Something is not fitting together with the story.

Out to Allyson Walker. She is joining us from Panama City with WMBB. Allyson Walker, this is a 7-month-old baby girl. She cannot walk. It`s my understanding she cannot crawl yet. That`s not unusual. How did she go missing? What`s the latest?

ALLYSON WALKER, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WMBB (via phone): You know what, Nancy? We have a timeline. We know that somewhere between 3:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. the child went missing. What we do know from neighbors is that the mother, who the sheriff will not release the identity of, went over and knocked on the doors of her neighbors at approximately 11:00 a.m.

She then -- she said, is there -- have you guys seen anyone who has driven up in the driveway because my child is missing. And the neighbors were just shocked. They were like how is your child missing? No, we haven`t seen anyone.

So they searched the home where Shannon and her parents live. No sign of the child. And at 11:23 is when they called Sheriff Bobby Haddock`s office to report her missing. As -- that`s what we know. The sheriff`s office has not been very cooperative in giving us many more details at this point.

GRACE: To Clark Goldband, our producer on the story, let me get that straight. What time -- I thought they woke up at 11:30 a.m.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Yes, Nancy, that`s right. It was 3:00 a.m. they said they went to bed and they woke up around 11:00 a.m. Now, Nancy, if this timeline could not get any more convoluted this might take the cake.

Law enforcement now saying that in fact this child was sleeping in the same bedroom as the parents. So that would mean if the child was taken that the person who abducted the child came right under the parents` noses.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, special guest joining us tonight from San Francisco. He`s the president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. He`s also a crime victim himself. His little girl Polly was taken from her home as well.

Marc Klaas, it`s not fitting together for me. Weigh in.

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, first of all, Nancy, I think it`s remarkable that the name of the parents have not been released.

GRACE: Yes, I don`t understand that. Why would you not release the name of the parents? I mean, when your Polly went missing, you were practically lying on the courthouse and police station steps going please, polygraph me, take me DNA, check my car, check my body, anything, just go look for who took Polly. These parents` names are being kept secret?

KLAAS: Well, and it`s beyond that, really. Because I think another huge gap in this story is the fact that the parents have not made any personal appeals. I really believe that this story is going to be solved or this case will be solved close to home rather than far away from home.

I think that the huge challenge that exists right now is in finding the little baby. I can tell you that the KlaasKids search team is involved in this particular search. And they are faced with a remarkable set of challenges. It`s a very densely populated -- or I`m sorry. There`s a very dense area.

It`s a swampy area. There`s a lot of briars. There`s a lot of brambles. They do have dogs on the scene. But the problem with that is that dogs follow a scent and this little baby didn`t crawl away. There`s really no scent to follow. If they`re going to find the baby in the woods, they`re going to find the baby at a particular spot.

And they continue to go over the same location time and time again so that they have a high probability of having -- they will have had a high probability of having found that child in any one location. I can tell you that the search will be going on again tomorrow.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "Killing for Sport." Pat, we`ve had neighbors that we have spoken to say, well, the baby was always happy and the mother was always bragging on the baby, we never even heard the baby cry. Doesn`t matter. That doesn`t mean anything.

How people act in front of other people, that doesn`t mean a thing to me.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Exactly. Sometimes parents like to show off their children. That`s the excitement about it. But it doesn`t mean they like having them around all the time. And what I think is interesting is the police never said they`re looking for anybody, like some woman who came in there and wanted a baby and stole it.

Like hey, everybody look for someone a little overweight who`s been saying that she -- she`s pregnant, she just had this baby. They haven`t put out one plea for that. So they`re not looking for a live baby, they`re looking for a dead baby.

GRACE: I want to go out to the lines, Rhonda in Tennessee. Hi, Rhonda.

RHONDA, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Nancy. My question is -- and I love your show and love your children. But my question is since -- I mean where were these parents? As a parent myself, if my child did not breathe right in the night or wasn`t moving, I knew this. You know? How does someone come into your bedroom and take your child?

GRACE: Well, Rhonda, I can tell you the very first thing I do when I get home from this program at night. I drop my pocketbook and all of my papers and all my notes. I`ve been studying. I go -- I don`t stop. I do Purell on the way and I go straight in the room of the twins.

And I don`t just look at them. I feel them to make sure that they`re breathing. I check for the temperature in the room. I don`t understand.

Ray Giudice, Christopher Amolsch, you know, how can they say this baby slept until 11:30 in the morning?

Raymond Giudice, you`ve got a brand-new blended family. You`ve been up during the night with your daughters.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. Nancy, if I was their counsel, and I wouldn`t represent both of them, I`d only represent one at a time because of the potential conflict, I`d get their stories straight before we did any more conversations with law enforcement. It does not make sense.

GRACE: What about it, Amolsch?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, there`s not a chance in the world this story is correct. I mean there`s not a chance in the world. Not a chance in the world. The police are going to separate them which is probably why they haven`t released their names. They`re going to get one of them to point the finger at the other one and that`s how it`s going to happen.

GRACE: Well, Marc Klaas could not be more correct.

Everybody, we`re going to break and taking your calls live.

November, Lung Cancer Awareness Month. It`s the number one cancer killer in the world, claiming more lives than breast, colon, prostate, liver, melanoma and kidney cancer combined. Kills more women a year than breast cancer.

Important. You don`t have to smoke to get lung cancer. This Saturday, November 7, 8:00 a.m. the Lung Cancer Alliance Run and Walk, Alpharetta, Georgia. For info on this and other happenings across the U.S., go to lungcanceralliance.com. The Bonnie Jay Addario Lung Cancer Foundation at Lungcancerfoundation.org. And the Joan Gaeta Lung Cancer Foundation at joangaeta.org.

Together, we can win the fight against lung cancer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLDBAND: Investigators have a broad time line that they`re working with here and it`s because, according to reports, the parents went to sleep around 3:00 a.m. and didn`t wake up until about 11:00 a.m. when they called law enforcement. And it`s not exactly clear when Shannon was taken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Rhonda, Tennessee. Hi, Rhonda. Oh, excuse, Marcia, West Virginia. Hi, Marcia.

MARCIA, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. Love you show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

MARCIA: Have they talked to the baby`s doctor to see, like, when`s the last time she`s had a check up or the condition since she only weigh in 11 pounds?

GRACE: Excellent question. And to you, Allyson Walker, not only that question, but when is the last time anybody other than the parents saw little Shannon? Allyson?

WALKER: There are some reports that neighbors saw Shannon around 9:00 in the morning. But that hasn`t been confirmed by the sheriff`s office. As far as medical records, we don`t know that. The sheriff`s office hasn`t released any information on that.

GRACE: You know that 9:00 sighting, Marc Klaas, doesn`t even make sense because the parents are telling police that baby slept until -- around 11:00 a.m. so right there, the stories have already conflicted.

KLAAS: Well, the only way that they could have slept through, as I see it, would be if they were on drugs or in a drunken stupor. You know, and nothing else makes any kind of sense at all. And in fact, that doesn`t even make sense. Like I said this is going to be home.

GRACE: It`s hard to sleep through baby screaming in your ear.

OK, Lisa, Pennsylvania. Hi, Lisa.

LISA, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. It`s nice to talk to you.

GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?

LISA: I hope your twins enjoyed their first Halloween. And my comment on this whole situation, how -- why would you go to a neighbor? I would pick up the phone, call 911 and.

GRACE: 911. Excellent point. Michelle, what about it, Doctor?

GOLLANO: It is disturbing. I think there are some serious questions about these parents. And like you`ve said, Nancy, the fact that they would be asleep from 11:00.

GRACE: Right.

GOLLANO: From 3:00 a.m. until 11:00 just does not make sense. Just does not make sense.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Marine Corporal Jason Dunham, 22, Scio, New York, killed, Iraq. Lost his life at a naval hospital, parents by his side. First Marine in this (INAUDIBLE) to be awarded the Medal of Honor. The country`s highest military award.

Gave his life saving fellow Marines from a grenade attack. A Navy destroyer named in his honor. Loved sports, the Yankees, dreamed of being a state trooper. Leaves behind parents Debra and Dan, Air Force vet, two brothers, one sister.

Jason Dunham, American hero.

Thank you for being with us especially to our guests. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END