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Addicted to Sex

Aired November 4, 2009 - 21:00:00   ET


JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW: sex, sex, sex. Can too much of a good thing be a bad thing? When it comes to an addiction -- yes. Dr. Drew Pinsky, addiction specialist will be joining me along with two sex addicts. And after we`re done talking we`ll all take a shower and cuddle.

Then, there was an election last night. Republicans are delirious about some big state house victories. Are they celebrating too soon?

Sex and politics -- oh, I feel just like a member of Congress.

Also Nicholas Cage, Hollywood star and shopaholic? He says he`s gone broke. Did his over the top lifestyle land him in the poor house?

All this and more, tonight.

Here`s a question, does being a sex addict make a man a bad husband? If he`s getting his fix from another woman, I would say yes.

Baseball analyst Steve Phillips and actor David Duchovny are two notable self-admitted sex addicts. But they`re not alone. Between 3 percent and 6 percent of the American population say they`re sex addicts too. Ironically they`re the same people to whom 4 out of 5 dentists recommend sugarless gum.

Go figure.

Here to discuss sexual addiction is Dr. Drew Pinsky, this generation`s Dr. Ruth except that he`s not 4`8.

DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: I kind of bump (ph) people`s height, too. I don`t tell them to have a good time

BEHAR: And he`s also the star of VH1`s "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew."

And two sex addicts who participated in the VH1 show: British film director Duncan Roy and Playboy Playmate Nicole Narain. Thank you so much for joining us.



BEHAR: Let`s start with -- hi Nicole. You`re out there somewhere but we know you`re there.

NARAIN: Thanks.

BEHAR: By the way, I saw your tape with Colin Farrell.


NARAIN: I can`t see you watching that. That`s cool, I guess.

BEHAR: I have my secrets.

Steve Phillips, you know this guy, ESPN, he has sex with a 22-year- old, he gets caught and goes to sex rehab. Is he really a sex addict or is he just a horny guy?

PINSKY: Look, we obviously don`t know him. But I do know that he had to have met criteria for sexual addiction in order to be admitted to a program that treats sexual addicts. People get sort of glib about this because they say, "Well, it`s just an excuse."

If they hadn`t been caught -- substitute cocaine instead of sex and it`s the same thing. The courts bring people to treatment. The families bring people to treatment. The doctors bring people to treatment.

It`s relatively rare that people stand up and go, "You know what? I think I need to get my cocaine addiction treated today, unless they have a near-death experience.

The sex addiction is the exact same way.

BEHAR: So somebody has to say, "Listen...

PINSKY: Somebody takes -- something has to happen...

BEHAR: You have to get caught or something like that.

PINSKY: There has to be sufficient consequence to motivate you to want to change this thing.

ROY: Listen. You know what? People accused of taking the easy way out by going into rehab as I heard you on the (INAUDIBLE) saying that the other day. But the point is the easy way out of that situation is to leave your wife, and end up in a hotel room with coke and hookers. That`s the easy way out for a sex addict. Not to stand up and say, "You know what? I`m putting my hands up. I need help."

BEHAR: I don`t remember saying that was the easy way out. You`re getting me mixed up with Whoopi Goldberg.


BEHAR: What about Letterman? I mean, what do you think about that case?

PINSKY: I don`t know what that`s all about. I mean, the one that sort of stands out as an easy one in the history record book is Bill Clinton. It`s an easy one to go there, somebody who really had had horrible consequences from what seems to be an addictive process.

BEHAR: Do you think that he`s addicted to sex or he just doesn`t have any self-control? What is the difference?

ROY: Doctor, go ahead.

PINSKY: Nicole I hear here wanted to ring in, too.

BEHAR: Go ahead Nicole, ring in.

NARAIN: The thing is that -- and I spoke to Dr. Drew about this recently because I was struggling with the fact that I had so many questions after I was on the show. I explained to him that being a sex addict and being someone who is addicted to love, where being -- being a love addict and having that fear of abandonment and that underlying fear of intimacy, I was asking, how do you deem yourself recovered from that.

Whereas I think it`s a lot easy -- a lot more treatable to be recovered from being a sex addict. Where, you know, like in Duncan`s case, being online eight, nine hours a day just watching porn, I would imagine at some point that can be recovered.

BEHAR: Not mention the carpal tunnel syndrome.

Is there a difference between a female addict and male addict? The way she describes it, it sounds like more like women who love too much?

PINSKY: Women tend to statistically come sex addition through love addiction. They have these elaborate fantasies. We`ve all had them. We have all been teenagers and we normally outgrow them as part of our developmental lives. But some people get stuck in them.

Romeo and Juliet were love addicts and by the way, people look at that and they point that as a reason that romance should be sort of defended. The outcome there wasn`t so good.

If one of my patients ended up like that, I wouldn`t be too happy.

BEHAR: Yes, but that -- listen, Romeo and Juliet is because the families disagreed. Didn`t you see "West Side Story?" It`s the same thing.

PINSKY: Let`s finish the point though. The fantasy is what becomes paramount. When there`s a real relationship, intimacy is disordered, they can`t tolerate it and that`s when they cheat and act out sexually.

BEHAR: I see.

ROY: And also the myth about sex addiction...

NARAIN: It`s hard to...

BEHAR: Hold on, Nicole.

NARAIN: Ok. Go ahead Duncan.

ROY: The myth about sex addiction is that it`s about sex. It`s not. It`s about filling the same void, the alcohol, the drugs.

BEHAR: Yes. There`s an emptiness.

ROY: That`s right. Sex addiction is about intrigue, it`s about flirtation. Those are just as important -- and pornography.

BEHAR: How much is danger involved in all of it too?

ROY: Well, for me, a lot...

BEHAR: Yes. For you.

ROY: A lot of danger. I was completely obsessed with dangerous sexual encounters with strange guys, usually straight (INAUDIBLE) guys who would then -- the last time I relapsed was in (INAUDIBLE) Square Park with a cop with a gun at my head.

BEHAR: It`s more about the thrill of the danger, getting caught.

ROY: For me it`s about replicating the trauma.


BEHAR: Let`s talk about the trauma.

I understand you had a trauma as a young child. It`s a serious thing.

ROY: We can laugh about it.

BEHAR: No, no, no. I can`t laugh about that. We`ll move on to other things that are funny. This is not. Because you were basically raped by your stepfather, am I right?

ROY: From 2 until 13.

BEHAR: Two years old, that is not funny.

ROY: But you know the average age -- the average age of sex abuse against kids is about 2 to 3 years old. That`s the average age. So people are abusing infants; that`s what happened.

PINSKY: It`s unbelievable. We have sort of come through a wave of this that is just unspectacular. And the consequences in adulthood are the replication of the traumas through sexual acting out and compulsively repeating traumas over and over by becoming a prostitute, by becoming a stripper, by going for dangerous situations. Whatever it might be, people compulsively replicate.

BEHAR: But do all sex addicts have child abuse in their past?

PINSKY: Not all but it`s very common.

BEHAR: It`s very common.

PINSKY: Very common.

BEHAR: Was Nicole -- were you sexually abused as a child Nicole?

NARAIN: I definitely grew up having my boundaries violated definitely. And that was...

PINSKY: And neglect too, Nicole, you mentioned. Abandonment.

BEHAR: Neglect and abandonment and abuse.

NARAIN: Right. I was kicked out at 16 years old. I`ve had to learn survival at such a young age and before being -- on top of that having your boundaries violated. That confusion doesn`t really help now that I`m out there in the world and in the streets by myself.

It`s like, what do I do now? How do I handle all this stuff? What`s right, what`s wrong, where do I go find comfort? What man, how do I trust that man?

PINSKY: Well said.

BEHAR: She puts it succinctly.

Duncan, you talk about your addiction on the show. Can we take a look at that clip?

ROY: Sure.


ROY: When I`m on my own, pornography is very debilitating. I`m talking about getting up in the morning seven days a week and sitting at my computer all day.


BEHAR: How much does the Internet actually play in all of this?

ROY: There`s a huge problem with the Internet. Because the Internet will take you -- sorry do you want to do this?

PINSKY: I want you to do it.

BEHAR: You`re the one who`s on the Internet.

PINSKY: I`ll sprinkle the highlights on top.

ROY: I`m the one that`s on the Internet. The problem with the Internet is that in years gone by, before the Internet came, people would find images and they would be the same kind of images. And if they evolved sexually into wanting to see other more dangerous things, it would be hard for them. Now you`re only three clicks way from something that would land you in prison.

And that`s a huge -- we`re talking about unmanageability and powerlessness.

PINSKY: And you have to remember, it`s really changed the landscape. Having this portal on everyone`s desk, that`s like having a crack pipe for the sex addict on their desk all the time.

BEHAR: Really?

And let me ask Nicole, how bad did your addiction get Nicole? I understand you were into masturbation a lot. Isn`t that from anxiety all that masturbating?

ROY: Well, it`s a way of managing feelings.

NARAIN: I really try hard not to think about masturbating too much. I had a moment there where I really did -- could not get out of bed. It was a constant thing.

That was an exhausting day. It was like I didn`t even want to eat food because that was my food for the day. It was exhausting. It was scary because it consumed my entire day.

I try very hard to not have any triggers around, you know, around me where I would feel like I need to masturbate today because I`m fearful of not getting out of bed for the day.




NARAIN: But I`m definitely a lot better. I`m still human, don`t get me wrong.


NARAIN: I mean, we all have to clean the pipes once in awhile.

BEHAR: I mean, masturbation like that is an addiction? I mean, she stopped eating, it could...


BEHAR: ... it could cure your addiction to food. Think about it that way.


BEHAR: Ok everyone. More to come, stick around. Always look on the bright side.



PINSKY: Now you had some childhood trauma, right?


PINSKY: What happened?

NARAIN: You know, like certain family members just you know, just touch you inappropriately. And things that I know were wrong. But for me, it`s like I don`t know how you talk about this stuff.

PINSKY: Sure, of course, I`m sure you were threatened too by some of this people, right? You didn`t deserve that did you?



BEHAR: Ok, that was a clip from the VH1 show "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew."

Ok, let me you ask you, how do you treat sex addictions? What do you do?

PINSKY: It`s different than other addictions in that it`s so deeply embedded in who the person is. It`s also deeply embedded in trauma as we`ve talked about.

The big difference for me was that you leap very quickly into very heavy landscape, very deep issues come up very quickly that are done in evocative fashion. Lots of education in sex rehab.

Drug addicts won`t sit through the kind of education that sex rehab candidates sort of gobble up. It`s really interesting. When you have the appropriate candidate at the appropriate level of care they really respond well to it.

And so a sex rehab treatment center has got to have patients that can tolerate evocation -- a lot of intense feelings...


PINSKY: ... and can sit through lectures and learn about things and really has to be willing to change with stuff that`s subtle and deeply- embedded in who they are.

BEHAR: So you can`t have ADD at the same time.

PINSKY: It`s difficult, but some people do.



ROY: You`ve been working with...

PINSKY: Chemical addicts...

ROY: Chemical addicts. You will be surprised by the way...

PINSKY: Oh, well, we put together this great team up. And I sort of even inserted myself into the team. And the way these guys, first of all their courage was just spectacular. And then secondly what they left into the process was something new for me compared to what drug addicts do.

BEHAR: I see.

PINSKY: Who resist the process or if they leap and they use it as a reason to go do drugs.

BEHAR: But sex addiction is harder you say?

PINSKY: It`s harder...

BEHAR: It`s harder to cure.

PINSKY: It`s more tender, It`s more painful.

ROY: Well, I have been sober like 13 years by the time I hit this wall.

PINSKY: Chemical, chemical.

ROY: So chemical is a part of it.

BEHAR: Sober from what?


ROY: Chemical, I`m sorry, I`ve been sober from drugs and alcohol for 13 years.

BEHAR: Drugs -- 13 years.

ROY: And then about eight months before I did the show I really hit this wall in my sobriety where I realized that I transferred all of my addictions into sex...


ROY: ... and Internet and all the other stuff that I was doing.

BEHAR: That`s an interesting point to me, that people who are addicted to one thing, they give that up and then, they pick up another addiction.

PINSKY: They can, yes they can. It`s a kind of addiction is a motivational disturbance, deep recesses the brain where there`s no logic, no reasonable language, just a motivational disturbance.

BEHAR: Yes, so now you gave up booze and drugs.

ROY: Yes.

BEHAR: And you`ve been rehabilitated as a sex addict. Right Duncan?

ROY: Well...

BEHAR: Almost.

ROY: You remember, there`s no cure for addiction. It`s a progressive...


ROY: ... condition which can be arrested. So all I have to do on a daily basis is arrest my condition. I mean, that`s really all I can do.

PINSKY: And Nicole is saying that sex addiction is so deeply emotional which is very much that point, it`s so much of an emotional process. Yes, Nicole?

NARAIN: Well, there`s so much trauma, too.

PINSKY: Right.

NARAIN: That`s the difference...


NARAIN: ... between being a sex addict and having and dealing with the abandonment and intimacy issues which is way more traumatizing and yet you`re dealing with a lot more emotions.

BEHAR: It`s very interesting how some addicts become very religious. I noticed, they become extremely -- George Bush was an alcoholic. And then he became very, very religious and it was all about the Lord. It`s like another addiction in a certain way.

PINSKY: Addicts are prone to extremes. They really are...


PINSKY: But religious, religiosity and all, I don`t see that that much, you`ll be surprised. I mean, yes, I agree with that case. But I don`t see that much of that.

ROY: George Bush would have appreciated a 12-step program, I`m sure.

BEHAR: He said he`d gone through it.

ROY: He would have been a better guy.

BEHAR: He never went through any of it, I don`t think.

ROY: I`m sure.

BEHAR: Now, on your show, you have eight good looking sex addicts living together.


BEHAR: Now, isn`t that a recipe for disaster?

PINSKY: No, but this is -- no well, maybe in the Joy Behar Sex Rehab program but in mine, it`s professional environment. It`s just like we are keeping a bunch of a drug addicts together, I mean, yes drug addicts do drugs, they do them together.

BEHAR: Yes, but drug addicts is different. Because there`s no drugs around, but people are there, good looking people.

ROY: But we really wanted it. I mean, that`s the...

BEHAR: You really wanted what?

PINSKY: Sobriety.

ROY: I really wanted sobriety and sexual sobriety. Now, a lot of these people were desperate like my friend Jenny, all of those people I have come to the end of the road. Of course, there was flirtation. Of course, there was kind of your immediate, kind of like oh yes, that`s cute or this is cute, but the point is, that you wanted sobriety more than you wanted to get laid again.

PINSKY: And we help them in that, we had them dress a certain way, they were not allowed to touch each other.

ROY: Yes.

PINSKY: We were on them constantly.

BEHAR: What about during the night? Come on.

PINSKY: No, it`s impossible.

ROY: We were in bed by 10:00.

PINSKY: We were on them, we have nursing staff on them, we watch every, just the way watch them for drugs and alcohol, we watch for sexual impropriety. The only thing we cannot monitor was masturbation. We trusted them to tell us and if they slipped there and they did tell us when that happened.

ROY: Once.

BEHAR: Nicole, did you confess about that, Nicole?

NARAIN: No, I didn`t. I was.

PINSKY: She made it.

NARAIN: I made it through.

BEHAR: She made it through. Well, good for you, good for you.

NARAIN: Thanks.

BEHAR: But they`re all gorgeous people. Are there any ugly sex addicts that you treat Dr. Drew? I mean, are all of them so gorgeous?

PINSKY: I don`t cast these shows. I try to not get involved at all. Because for me, if I come upon somebody and they need treatment, I can`t say, hey, wait until the cameras heat up in a couple of months, I have to treat them. So I just stay out of that part and...

BEHAR: Ok, and there are more women than men which I -- we had a question about that because I think that mostly sex addicts are male. Am I wrong?

PINSKY: I think explicitly sex addicts but boy there`s a lot of love of addicts out there that are women.

BEHAR: Love addicts.

PINSKY: ... that are flirting with sexual addiction.

BEHAR: So woman get a romantic spin, you noticed that they are love addicts and men are sex addicts.

ROY: Well, I think the problem is that...

NARAIN: I know but you know what, it`s funny, I wish there was almost a different name for love addict because it does sound so like, oh so sweet and trite.

BEHAR: Well, it`s co-dependency sort of isn`t it?

PINSKY: It is.

NARAIN: But I mean, it`s such a deeper issue when you`re dealing with abandonment and intimacy issues. Like, I didn`t know that there was a difference between sex and love. I thought they were the same thing...

BEHAR: Well, of course.

NARAIN: ... until I did the show.

BEHAR: A lot of people make that mistake. You`re not alone in that.

PINSKY: Well, but that is true, but that`s how a lot of people get in trouble.


PINSKY: Right there.


PINSKY: But, listen, we live in a time when we have destroyed intimacy. We just have.


And the substitute for that are all these arousing activities and extreme force and intensity and power control. That`s not intimacy. We`ve lost track of that. Our families have been disrupted for a long time. And so we don`t have good models for intimacy. Sex becomes the surrogate, or fantasy becomes the surrogate and that`s what Nicole`s talking about.

NARAIN: And that`s -- in my relationships, that`s what I dealt with. I lived most of my relationships in intensity rather than intimacy.

BEHAR: Are you both abstinent now? Because you can tour with Sarah Palin if you are.

ROY: The thing about this is, this was something that people can get very confused about, this sex addiction. You have to define your own bottom line.

For me, I`m not allowed to jerk off compulsively -- masturbate, I`m new to all that stuff -- masturbate compulsively. I`m not allowed to look at Internet porn. I`m not allowed to look up hook up sites. I`m not allowed to -- but actually I am allowed to have sex with consenting adults, because I wasn`t.

BEHAR: The danger thing? You don`t feel that anymore?

ROY: Well, that`s absolutely my bottom line behavior. That`s -- with this thing it`s absolutely the worst thing I could do.

BEHAR: That`s the top...

More when we come back. Don`t go away.


BEHAR: I`m back with my guests, Dr. Drew Pinsky, from the VH1 show "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew" and two of the show`s cast members, British film director Duncan Roy and Playboy Playmate Nicole Narain.

I have questions from people who have twitted and twittered and all that. Let me read a couple of them.

What are the -- well, we went through this, what are the differences between male and female. We know that one is love, one is sex, sort of.

ROY: They end up in the same place very often and it`s the roads there that tend to be different.

BEHAR: This is from Eve Baer (ph), "Do you think the way we Americans view sex has something to do with the problem sexual addiction?"

PINSKY: I don`t. People make a big deal about that. About we`re so prudish and puritanical. I don`t see it. I see nothing but sex everywhere in this country.

You come from another country. Do you see us as being affected by that?

BEHAR: You`re from England, I take it.

ROY: Yes, I`m from England.

I don`t see you as being prudish. But I do see you as having very strict ideas about what -- the whole gay and straight thing. For me, that`s a complete -- that`s so American because I think people have a lot more sexual fluidity in Europe than they do here.

BEHAR: Oh, you think so.

ROY: You know a lot of my male friends have had encounters with other men. But here, they would be, "Oh, he`s in the closet." Or he needs to get, he`s in denial. There, it`s just like, "Ok. Well, I tried it. It wasn`t for me. It`s fine. Let`s move on."

BEHAR: That`s why people say all of the Brits are gay.

ROY: Exactly. That`s right.

BEHAR: Now we know why.

ROY: Strange enough, most straight men would encourage women to like maybe perform for them, you know, two women in the bed, that`s a big straight fantasy, apparently. What does that mean for most women, that they`re really closeted lesbians? I don`t think so.

BEHAR: It`s different for women.

ROY: Why, because they couldn`t get hurt?

BEHAR: I don`t know.

Explain to me, when we talk about pedophilia or exhibitionism. Those are like really in another category of sexual addiction, are they not?

PINSKY: They can be another category or they could also be part of sexual addiction. But they`re things that can be treated often times and that`s one of the things...

BEHAR: Pedophilia I think has very trouble -- they have a lot of trouble treating people.

PINSKY: Very difficult. One of the things we tell patients is please get help before you hurt somebody else or yourself because those roads you go down...

BEHAR: What about medication? Does that work at all?

PINSKY: Medicine has a role to be played but really only in certain diagnostic situations. It`s not particularly a treatment for sexual addiction per se.

BEHAR: Ok. Let me do another one before we go.

Janet was married to a sex addict for 20 years. She writes, "He needed more than just having sex with me. He needed the danger," like you were saying, "The threat of being caught and even the possibility of dying during sex."

PINSKY: Well, Duncan said the same too. But here`s the deal...

BEHAR: Of dying? Did you ever feel that?

ROY: I felt like I was trying to replicate what I was doing when I was a kid. When you`re being raped, when you`re 4 years old, you are kind of dying. You know what I mean? You don`t when it`s going to end. The pain is overwhelming. You think, like you know you`re being questioned -- you`re being challenged in so many different ways.

Finding that as an adult often takes you into very, very terrible places.

BEHAR: Let me get last word from Nicole. Do you to feel like you`re almost over this? Where are you?

NARAIN: I`m in Los Angeles right now.

BEHAR: No, I mean where are you emotionally.


BEHAR: That might have said it. I`m not sure.

ROY: You`re right.

NARAIN: I`m so glad I dyed my hair back brown. Where am I in recovery?


NARAIN: Believe it or not, I feel really good about my recovery right now. I actually haven`t even had sex in like over a month and that`s just by choice.

BEHAR: Good for you, she`s better.

NARAIN: I`m single and I`m dating but I`m just kind of taking my time.


BEHAR: I have to go, Nicole. Thank you all, Nicole, Duncan thanks for joining me.

Dr. Drew, hang tight. Hollywood stars in compulsive behavior. I know, shocking.


BEHAR: If anyone seems to know about America`s culture of addiction its celebrities. These days, Nicolas Cage is in serious financial trouble thanks to what some people are calling a crippling consumer addiction. And Kirstie Alley seems to be battling a food addiction and will even star in a reality show chronicling her attempts at weight loss. Back with me to discuss this case is Doctor Drew and joining us our reality star Jill Zarin of bravo`s the real Housewives of New York City and Ashleigh Banfield host of Open Court on true TV. OK let`s talk about; welcome everybody, and let`s talk about Kirstie Alley and what she said on Oprah yesterday.


KIRSTIE ALLEY: I was doing cocaine. I was crazy as -- I was -- you know I had come in and I don`t think anybody knew what those drugs were then. They would say I`m so crazy. I would say I`m high. But they didn`t believe it.

So when did you stop doing drugs?

In 1979, I only did drugs for a couple of years. But I did share and yours.


BEHAR: OK did she replace a drug addiction with a food addiction, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: It seems that way. This really can be the case. As you know we discuss sexual addiction how sometimes people can get sober from a chemical addiction and later behavioral addiction kicks in, that does happen.

BEHAR: Yes that I think is what happen. You see this a lot Ashleigh with your work?

BANFIELD: Well, it`s funny. I actually see it with my colleagues. Jane Velez -- Mitchell has a written this amazing book about how we replace one for the other and then an addictive personality is something that we all have in some sense. Some more than others, some different choices and addictions but yes, we all have a bit of a problem.

ZARIN: But some are safe addictions. I mean is every addiction a bad addiction?

PINSKY: Well by definition --

BEHAR: Exercise they say is a great addiction. I`m sorry I don`t have that one.


PINSKY: Well but exercise bulimia is not. Exercise bulimia is very difficult to treat.

ZARIN: Or maybe addiction makes it sounds like not a good thing.

PINSKY: No, no, addiction by definition the consequences have to be negative. Negative -- continued behavior despite negative consequence that defines addiction.

BEHAR: Say I had again slowly.

PINSKY: Continued behavior and preoccupation despite the negative consequences in important areas of your life; whether school, finance, health, legal --

ZARIN: It has to have a negative impact.

PINSKY: Negative impact in important areas of your life, in relationships --

BEHAR: See with weight addictions and food addictions it gets a little tricky. Because on the one hand, you have Queen Latifah saying I`m big and beautiful. And then the anorexic starlets saying I look beautiful this way. Women don`t know if they`re addictive or you know, fat or just too skinny or what --

PINSKY: And I`ve got to say, in my treatment center these days, if somebody has a bad enough addiction to see me, a chemical addiction is nearly 100 percent probability of childhood trauma. We discussed earlier how common sexual addiction. Also very common chemical addiction too. We tend to see sort of a multiplicity of you know, cutting, eating disorders addiction, and sexual addiction and compulsion all kind of goes together. So eating is part of the syndrome of addiction and trauma today.

BANFIELD: I think it`s real frustrating though, the number of celebrities out there, mostly women, who come on television or go in magazines and do the tell-all interviews with how proud they are of their look, of their larger than life look and then the next year they`re losing 75 pounds.


ZARIN: Then she put it back on to get another reality show. Now to get one but Kirstie Alley had a show on show time. I actually enjoyed that show but she was actually acting out sort of as herself -- Now she`s back again.


BEHAR: She`s capitalized on her weight.

ZARIN: But she was an actress and I sort of found that show entertaining. And now sort of Real life it`s not entertaining for me anymore.

BEHAR: She lost weight on the Jenny Craig diet. I was on that. They paid me. That`s how you lose weight these days. If they pay me, I will lose weight.


PINSKY: Listen in my work; we`re trying to figure out how to motivate people to do these things. And paying people is way to motivate them.


ZARIN: Do a job on TV. They didn`t pay me; I had to lose the weight.

BEHAR: He`s saying - so you`re saying if you pay someone they might give up the addiction?

PINSKY: Listen; well look at the rehab programs I have done. Most of these people were not interested in recovery. But they were interested on being on TV and getting paid. But we brought them in and treated them and their lives were changed. And we motivated them to get on -


BEHAR: I know but what makes you think they won`t go back to their usual behavior at the end of the TV show?

PINSKY: Of course they could. But the reality is they`re not.

BANFIELD: Some of them are just being interested on being on TV.

BEHAR: Are they not, are they`re cured?

PINSKY: No one is ever cured but they`re better than average.

BEHAR: Let me ask you something Joe, are -- do you that think people on reality shows that you are on -- are addicted to TV, or addicted to the spotlight?

ZARIN: It depends on how you got on. For me, they approached me and I never thought I would be on television.


PINSKY: Not Jill, everybody else, though.

BEHAR: He did a whole thesis.

ZARIN: I know about your book. I think it depends on the person. I don`t think you can say there`s a rule for anybody. I have made a business out of this. I`m a spokes person for Kodak doing great -- I`m writing a book --. All these things, am I guilty for wanting to be successful?

BEHAR: You`re addicted to capitalism.

ZARIN: And you know what, that`s right, I`m making money to support my shopping addiction.



BEHAR: OK let`s talk about shopping addiction because another alleged Hollywood addict, Nicolas Cage, he`s suing his former money manager for sending him into debt. But now sources say he was addicted to spending. Here`s some of the stuff that Cage owns - I`m just going to give you a list of -- a dozen homes around the world, a few dozen cars like this Bugatti. Only 710 of them were made, so that was a biggy. A gulfstream private jet which cost about $50 million. He also owns a couple of islands in the Bahamas, some meteorites. A dinosaur skull.


BEHAR: I would love a dinosaur skull that would look stunning on my ma mantle. A $9 million 18th century castle. Now he makes only about, according to what I`ve read, only about $20 million a year, which could not support this. And taxes forget about it.


BANFIELD: That doesn`t matter.

BEHAR: What doesn`t matter?

BANFIELD: Scratch all that off the block. His big spending ticket because if you go to a nice restaurant in New York City, you go there because you figure you can afford it. If all of a sudden, you find out tomorrow that your manager has not told you that you don`t have the money to go to Nubo, you`re in trouble. So your restaurant is his leer jet. So it shouldn`t matter what the tickets are. They make for good talking on the show here. But it doesn`t matter what he bought. The fact of the matter is it`s about the paperwork.

ZARIN: He spent more than he has.

BEHAR: My manager doesn`t tell me how much I can spend at Nobu. I know how much I can spend.


ZARIN: You have to, when you get your bank statement, at least for me; I check every check to make sure I signed it. I sign every check. And you know what -


BEHAR: She`s a businesswoman.

PINSKY: This kind of spending is grandiose spending. On a grand scale. It makes me worry that he`s bipolar, manic, there`s something going on to fueling this. There are also some people get very high on debting. It`s actually not the buying; it`s the debting that they get off on.

BEHAR: What turns them on about being in debt?

PINSKY: It`s very often that people that have struggled early in life; their back was against the wall. They really only feel alive when they`re in that situation.

BEHAR: That`s so interesting. I once heard on Oprah or some place that gamblers, compulsive gamblers could be bipolar.


BEHAR: I would say did you win? Nah.

PINSKY: They like - they prefer to -

BEHAR: They don`t want to win. Explain that to me.

ZARIN: I thought they were trying getting the next win. I thought that was the high, is to win.

PINSKY: Some of them associate the machine as they go out of body. There are reported cases that people go in the casinos in diapers because they become so -- so associated. But most gambling addicts like --

BEHAR: They don`t allow that in Atlantic City.

PINSKY: Just Vegas.


BANFIELD: People coming off the buses in diapers. What are you talking about?

BEHAR: I don`t want any diapers in my room.

PINSKY: We`re crossing over the thing here. But the fact is that most gamblers like the thrill of losing. It`s when they feel alive. It`s when they feel their backs --

BEHAR: Really t hey doesn`t feel alive when they`re winning.

PINSKY: Some do there are some that like winning. The majority of my experience -


BEHAR: Like me --

ZARIN: When I`m winning my heart races when I`m winning.

PINSKY: Of course you`re not a gambling addict --

BEHAR: So it`s normal to get excited when you`re winning at roulette.

PINSKY: Of course it is, of course that`s why people do it.

BANFIELD: I guess I`m normal -- $20 million because if you lost I think you`re really pissed off - you`re out of money and forced to sell in the worst real estate market. In that case and I think this is the issue with Cage. He`s saying I`m not like Jill. I`m not smart enough to follow my own money. And that`s why I pay this guy to follow it for me. The thing is though; we need to find out in court if they had an agreement. Do I have Cart Planche to manage money without checking with you every time? Or do we check through each other on every transaction -that`s going to be key?

BEHAR: There seems to be -

ZARIN: Is this the problem - why doesn`t he sell one plane.

BEHAR: Yes but sell one plane and he`ll collect 20 million.

BANFIELD: So everything on the market he`s putting everything on the market.


BANFIELD: You can sell everything at a price. Everything is sellable.

BEHAR: You know it seems to me, I know women, you know women on the Upper East Side who were shopping addicts. I mean you see them buying 100 Fendi bags and Gucci bags and Manolo shoes and everything. Are those real addicts? Or can their husbands afford it? Or can their husbands afford it? A lot of it is their husband`s money

ZARIN: Does it matter?

PINSKY: Well but again, look back.

BEHAR: Does it matter?

PINSKY: It matters if people, when they have emotional disregulation. You referred earlier to the emptiness. When the shopping is an attempt to fill the emptiness then it becomes more of a compulsion and addiction.

BEHAR: That`s the pathology involved. That there`s like a emptiness inside and how else can I fill it up.

ZARIN: Well some women do it because they`re lonely. And their husbands don`t come home until late, 11 o clock or they don`t come home at all and they do shop all day.

PINSKY: You`re correct maybe loneliness but true emptiness is a pathology.

BEHAR: You have to lower the volume. I get high buying a lipstick. You don`t have to have a Gucci bag to get this feeling.

BANFIELD: I have a problem with shoes.


PINSKY: What sit with women and shoes? Explain that to me.

BEHAR: Thank you so much all of you. We`ll be right back. Thank you so much for being here today. Well it was a lot of fun. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)


REP. ALAN GRAYSON, (D), FLORIDA: What the Republicans have been doing is an insult to America. They`ve been dragging their feet. These are foot-dragging, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who thinks they can dictate policy to America by being stubborn.


BEHAR: You`re the greatest, "knuckle - dragging Neanderthal" apparently voters in New Jersey and Virginia didn`t agree. The governors- elect in both states both Republicans. I`m joined by the man that threw those bombs, Florida Congressman Alan Grayson, congressman. Thank you for joining me. I really do enjoy you, I must tell you.

ALAN GRAYSON, (D), FLORIDA: Same here. I enjoy you, too.

BEHAR: But you know the governor`s races were won in Republicans in Virginia and New Jersey. And Obama stump for both of them, what`s this say about Obama`s influence these days? Is it waning or is it OK, what do you think?

GRAYSON: Well look, there`s lesson for both parties. For the Democratic Party we have to activate our vote. The Republicans activate their vote. The Democrats this year have not done as good a job as the Republicans in that regard. The voter turnout in Virginia was down by half since last year. Now, I don`t think half of all voters in Virginia disappeared. What happen was some of them felt motivated to vote. And too many of people on our side didn`t feel motivated to vote. And that`s why there was a sharp drop in Democratic performance in both states. So we have to motivate our base.

BEHAR: It was interesting the exit polls in Virginia and New Jersey, all -- both of them said they still like President Obama. That their vote had nothing to do with him. Do you agree with that?

GRAYSON: Well look, people elected Obama, they elected me, they elected the Democrats and put us in charge of the government because they want change. And they need to see more of it. We need to deliver. We need to make sure that the people who voted for us with expectations in mind have those expectations satisfied. It`s that simple. There are lessons for Republicans too. You didn`t talk about the election in New York.

BEHAR: I`m about to ask you about that one because that was one for the team.

GRAYSON: Well listen, I think we`re witnessing the disintegration of a major political party. Something that happens only about once a century. The last time that two of those counties that New York congressional district were represented by Democrats was in 1850. 1850. So I think what we`re seeing is that the tea baggers are no longer obeying the corporate pay masters.

BEHAR: It`s interesting because both Limbaugh and Palin both backed the Republican up there. And it didn`t work. I love that. Does it mean the attack machine -- what is it about the right wing attack machine. That they`re full of bluster and they`re out there all the time voicing their hatred, a lot of it. And it still doesn`t translate into votes, by and large.

GRAYSON: They`re down to 20% of Americans identify themselves as Republicans now. And even at 20% split -- they`re split and splintered and falling apart.

BEHAR: What does it about independent voters, this whole thing, do you think?

GRAYSON: Well the independent voters have a lot of say. They`re the balance of power between the two parties. But I think at this point we`re down to 1 1/2 parties. Because the Republicans just can`t seem to get it together. They have nothing to offer ordinary people. You know you ask what people want for health care, for education, for jobs, the Republicans have no answers for any of that. They`re the party of no, and no don`t cut it anymore.

BEHAR: OK and thank you very much for joining us I hope that you`re going to keep speaking out and saying those wonderful things that you say. We like them.

GRAYSON: Thank you, Joy.

BEHAR: OK, thank you very much Congressman, I want to turn to Randi Rhodes, nationally syndicated radio talk show host. Hi, Randi.


BEHAR: So, thank you. Let`s start with these races. What did you make of all of it?

RHODES: Well one of them was a real change election. And the other one I thought -

BEHAR: Which one?

RHODES: Well I thought New Jersey, you know Goldman Sacs Corzine I think they had it with the whole Wall Street bailout. The whole -

BEHAR: Right.

RHODES: And you know --

BEHAR: You can`t blame people for being aggravated by that.

RHODES: I don`t blame them. I really don`t blame them. And he ran a dirty campaign, quite frankly. I don`t think Corzine needed to go there with the fat joke. You know I mean that`s what he was presenting

BEHAR: Do you think that had something to do with the reason he lost?

RHODES: It`s what everybody ended up talking about. Instead of how to bring jobs to New Jersey or lower property taxes. Everybody was saying oh my god, John Corzine --

BEHAR: I think it`s because they didn`t like Corzine, it had nothing to do with the fat joke.

RHODES: He`s not the most -- you wouldn`t want to have dinner with John Corzine.



BEHAR: Have you had dinner with him?


BEHAR: But I read that you said that the governor races yesterday were a vote for Obama. Now he lost - we lost --

RHODES: Oh but I said that it`s a change election. See I really think that New Jersey was voting for change and Virginia was voting for change. I think Virginia made a huge mistake. The kind of change they`re going get is going to be you know, women are chattel and you know--

BEHAR: In Virginia?

RHODES: They`re still fighting the civil war in Virginia and they`re making progress. Virginia is one of the best managed states in the United States. Because they had 12 years of Democratic governors. They had Tim Kaine who was a phenomenal governor. And they have -- who is leaving you, Mark Warner. They had Mark Warner and so they`re finances in Virginia are really, really solid. The thing on the ballot is a transportation issue. There`s a lot of traffic in Northern Virginia mostly. And so they were upset about transportation. This guy that won, Bob McDonald, that won, Bob McDonald, I mean Bob McDonald likes when you and me were chattel, he liked when you and me couldn`t own things and couldn`t vote that`s who Bob McDonald is.

BEHAR: Oh, those were the days.

RHODES: But you know he ran as a moderate. That`s the thing that nobody want to talk about. Bob McDonald decided to put all the social issues aside and run with Bob loves jobs. Or Bob for jobs. I mean, he ran as a complete moderate. Never talked about social issues. Which is what these conservatives are harping on and they`re going to lose.

BEHAR: Well do you think that all this kind of like tea partying that`s going on, and the Palins, the Limbaughs, the Becks, are they harming the Republican Party?

RHODES: Listen Joy I think that`s what - you know the one race that they inserted themselves in a big way,

BEHAR: 23rd district.

RHODES: New York.

BEHAR: That was an interesting thing.

RHODES: That was a talk radio race. That`s what that was. They needed to win one so Beck and Rush and Sean, and Mark Levin, who believe it or not is like in bunker in his bedroom somewhere planning all this. Landmark legal foundation is his, you know, screaming and yelling I am a Sean Hannity everyday telling them what to say. And so they`re very coordinated. They picked this New York 23rd race and decided they would back the conservatives. See there was a Republican and a Conservative. So they backed the conservative. This guy, Hoffman, no one knew him. He`s an accountant. He was a CPA.

BEHAR: Why didn`t they back the Republican?

RHODES: Because they wanted to show that the Republican Party is no longer their party. That the Republican -- they`re running away from bush.

BEHAR: Do they want a third party? Do they want a third party?

RHODES: They do. They can`t get anybody elected for dogcatcher. If you read "the New York Times," David Brooks, is a conservative, he`s a Republican - see now you have to differentiate. He wrote a column saying these guys couldn`t get anybody elected to dog catcher with their 600, 700 radio stations. And so --

BEHAR: You know I wonder if that`s true. But that could be sour grits on (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

RHODES: No, New York 23.

BEHAR: Listen I`m still worried about them but sit tight. We have more with you. We`ll be back in a minute. Don`t go away.


BEHAR: I`m back discussing last night`s election results with Randi Rhodes, a nationally syndicated talk show host. So Randi let`s talk about Maine. Maine voted to repeal a law that would allow gay marriages. Did that surprise you at all?

RHODES: You know, Joy, I think Madison is rolling over in his grave. You know the reason why we have a legislative branch and the reason why they make the law is so that the majority can never be tyrannical over the minority. And every time you put one of these things on the ballot you get all this money coming in from out of state, from out of district, you know, from all over the place affecting these questions that should decided by state legislature or our federal government, quite frankly.

Barack Obama was at the human campaigns right dinner not too long ago and he was the keynote speaker. And he made news that day because he said would end don`t ask don`t tell. But the other news he made was that he was going to work to repeal DOMA, the Defensive Marriage Act. And that`s really where it belongs, legislated in the house and senate and signed by the president and get it done.

It`s surprising to me, all these conservatives with their values. They pick and choose from the constitution what they like. The 14th amendment applies to other people besides George Bush. The 14th amendment is equal protection and belongs to everybody. All rights commonly available to you, to me, and to everybody that`s watching are available to all people. Regardless -- that`s why it was very important that the hate crimes legislation for the first time Barack Obama put the whole GLBT, transgendered, too, into federal law. That was the first time there was ever a law that mentioned in federal law gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered people. Now, he`s got to -

BEHAR: But why is it that whenever they put it on a ballot, a proposition or anything it dies?

RHODES: Well so much money in the district. I mean you have church money coming in which, you know, separation of church and state. They kind of like it, but, you know, then the churches get involved and they -- they like their tax exempt status but don`t want to stay out of politics. So you get this money coming in from people. I think Maine saw -- even this Hoffman guy in New York 23, all the money came from outside the district. Maine, same thing. It came from this group, something like people for the defensive marriage, or something like that. It`s out of state money.

BEHAR: It always fascinates me how heteros are upset about gay marriage. As if my husband is a drunk and he beats me, but it`s because Frank and Larry are getting married I`m having a problem.

RHODES: Well when I was married I used to tell my husband used to say, what I need is another wife. You -- you`re too much for me to do. Get somebody else.

BEHAR: But do you think this Maine vote is going to stop the momentum of gay rights or another little glitch?

RHODES: You know like I said, when you leave it to the public -- the public is never going to vote themselves higher taxes but they want better schools. Public is never going to vote other peoples` rights when they`re not part of that group --

BEHAR: But you know in this country we don`t know what we`re getting for taxes. You know when you go to Europe, you have health care, and you`ve got trains running all over the place. You get your money`s worth.

RHODES: Joy, you have socialism.

BEHAR: I know but that`s why people don`t want to pay taxes here`s because we don`t get much for it.

RHODES: Well I think we do. I mean you know, we`re in New York City and have the most amazing mass transportation. We have -- I can come from D.C. To here in, you know, two hours.

BEHAR: Big deal, but you can`t go to Chicago really easily.

RHODES: That`s what Warren Buffett is building.

BEHAR: Good for him. Thanks, Randi. Thank you and thanks to all of my guests tonight. Good night, everybody.