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Officials Investigate Fort Hood Shooting; Suspect Arrested in Orlando Workplace Shooting
Aired November 06, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right, they are wrapping it up there, but we start today with two major breaking news stories we have been following here in the CNN NEWSROOM this afternoon.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, in today for Rick Sanchez.
And our national conversation begins with two American tragedies today, really. An office building in Orlando is the scene of a shooting with multiple shootings. At least one person is dead, the suspect, well, just brought in by police. We're going to show you him in just a moment.
And in Fort Hood, Texas, piecing together clues from yesterday's deadly shooting there, more on the alleged shooter and the civilian being hailed as a heroine there in just a moment.
But, first, we want to tell you this. This is the suspect in this office shooting in Orlando, Florida, Forty-year-old Jason Rodriguez being taken into police custody. He spoke to the media. I want you to listen in to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have any anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it? Why did you do it? Why did you do it?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers?
JASON RODRIGUEZ, SUSPECT: No, I'm not -- not mad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot? Jason, you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you do it?
RODRIGUEZ: They left me to rot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers? RODRIGUEZ: No, I'm not...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I don't know if you could hear him. He said -- left you to rot. He said his employer left him to rot.
He was let go from there just a couple of years ago they said because of performance issues. But, again, that is 40-year-old Jason Rodriguez, the suspect in all this. Police say that he walked into his former employer's office in the 16-story Gateway Center building and started shooting, killing one person and wounding five.
As some workers got out, others started barricading themselves inside offices throughout that building.
And police also say they had to shut down Interstate 4 as they searched for this man that you're looking at right there, again, 40- year-old Jason Rodriguez. They say Rodriguez walked into the engineering firm Reynolds Smith & Hills shortly before noon, and then he opened fire.
Again, he has been caught, and he was caught at his mother's house just a few minutes from the scene of the shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have any anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it? Why did you do it? Why did you do it?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers?
RODRIGUEZ: No, I'm not -- not mad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot? Jason, you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you do it?
RODRIGUEZ: They left me to rot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers? RODRIGUEZ: No, I'm not...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Again, one person is dead in all of this. Police held a press conference just a short time ago.
Our John Zarrella is on the ground for us in Florida. He joins us now with the very latest.
John, what do you know?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Don, what we know is that this -- he was a former employee of Reynolds Smith & Hills, which, as you know, is an architectural and engineering firm, one of their offices there in the Orlando area. They have many throughout the country.
This particular one deals with a lot of road projects with the Department of Transportation here in Florida. And, apparently, according to a company spokesman, he was released for what that company spokesman said were performance-related issues -- would not elaborate on that -- back in 2007, so two years ago.
That company spokesman also said that at this time, they did not believe that he was any threat at all, because so much time had passed. So, of course, as you heard from that -- throwing those questions at him from the reporters on the ground there, that the company had left him to rot was what he was saying.
So quite clearly, this leads back to his employment issues at this company. But again, as we have been reporting, the good news in all of this is that he was taken into custody without incident. His car was spotted at his mother's apartment complex -- Don.
LEMON: Yes. And Central Florida News 13, the affiliate, the CNN affiliate that got this video and got the sound bite, want to give credit to them, John Zarrella.
Don't go anywhere, as John is on the ground here.
As we're understanding, also, Charlie Crist, the governor of Florida is speaking, and we're going to hear from him in just a moment.
It's amazing to see this, these people running across a lawn here. And imagine people being held up -- holed up in their office buildings, John, and seeing a -- one of their fellow employees shot. We're going to be talking about the jobs numbers a little bit later on, hearing from someone in the administration. But there's a whole lot of frustration out there.
And, at this point, John, if you listen to what Mr. Rodriguez says, this may have had something to do with why he did it, not that it's a legitimate excuse, but that is what he is saying.
ZARRELLA: Yes, clearly, that from what he is saying, it may certainly relate back to his dismissal for whatever those reasons might have been back in 2007.
And, as you were mentioning, people running across the ground, the SWAT team searching that building, it was quite chaotic and certainly great concern at the time that they did not know whether this individual was still in the building, in that office complex, SWAT teams pouring through there, floor-by-floor searches, evacuating people, but at the same time very, very cautious that they were not, at the same time, allowing the shooter to get away, not knowing where he was at the time.
So, that situation clearly very, very tense for a couple of hours there at that office complex right there in downtown Orlando area -- Don.
LEMON: Yes, it's very interesting. And this is all going -- very similar situation happening yesterday. The only thing that is different is that I'm sitting here, instead of Rick Sanchez, and it was yesterday in Fort Hood, Texas.
John Zarrella, stand by. I'm going to be getting back to you in just a little bit.
Meantime, we're talking about the reasons why Jason Rodriguez, the alleged -- the suspect in all of this, why he did it. He said he was left to dry by his employers.
So, let's go now to someone who represents that company. His name is Ken Jacobson. He is the chief legal counsel and also the CFO of Reynolds Smith & Hills company.
Mr. Jacobson, thank you so much for joining us today.
What do you make of what the suspect said?
KEN JACOBSON, GENERAL LEGAL COUNSEL, REYNOLDS SMITH & HILLS: I didn't hear what the suspect said. I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: One of the reporters asked him why he did it and he said because his employer left him out to dry.
We can't understand that statement.
Mr. Rodriguez was let go from his employment almost two-and-a- half years ago, in June of 2007. This isn't a recent event. And we have not heard from him in the intervening two-and-a-half years. So, we just can't -- we can't make any sense of this. LEMON: We heard that he was let go because of performance issues. Can you talk to us about that?
JACOBSON: Yes. He was hired as an engineer one, which is kind of a beginning engineer. And his work performance was pretty deficient from the start.
He only worked here 11 months. We tried to work with him to improve his performance. And then, when we could not, we let him go in June of 2007.
LEMON: Were there any disciplinary issues or any issues with his personality that stands out to you that you can remember?
JACOBSON: No, not at all. It was just the work product wasn't up to the necessary standards, but it wasn't anything else.
LEMON: It wasn't anything else, nothing that would lead to this sort of thing.
Have you spoken to other people who work there or at least the victims' family?
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBSON: No, we have not yet. We're getting pretty sketchy information on who may have been injured and don't have full information yet.
LEMON: What happens next for the people who were there? They're going to need some type of counseling.
And...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: ... work on Monday is going to be a tough thing.
JACOBSON: We have a corporate plan that we have in place where people can seek counseling, and we're in the process of activating that now, not only for our people in Orlando. We're a very close company. And this is pretty traumatic for our employees in other offices who are good friends and know the people in our Orlando office.
LEMON: It's a very sad day for you. Listen, we really appreciate you joining us on this busy day for you and very tragic day, Ken Jacobson, CFO and the chief legal for Reynolds Smith & Hills company, the company where this tragedy happened today.
And just moments ago we heard from the suspect and you're going hear from him again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People sometimes have things going on with them that you don't know about and that they don't share with you, and they make bad choices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Up next: another gunman. What set off the alleged gunman at Fort Hood yesterday, a shooting that has claimed 13 lives? Make sure you stay with us on this very busy news day. I'm Don Lemon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, following two developing stories with us today, a very busy news day. Make sure you stick with us throughout this hour.
We want to get to the still developing and still very shocking news from the military community around Fort Hood in Texas. The words today are remarkably similar from everyone whenever developments emerge like this, tragic, senseless, horrific, and the most repeated word of them all: Why? Why did this happen?
Well, you probably know what happened yesterday. The news broke right here during this hour with Rick Sanchez sitting right here guiding you through it. But let me condense it down for you with what we have learned since, what we know for sure so far.
The guy that you see right there in that video captured yesterday on the store surveillance camera and wearing the clothes of an observant Muslim man, CNN has confirmed that man is Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan.
This was taken just a short time before military authorities say he entered Fort Hood, pulled out one or maybe more guns, and then started shooting, of course.
Take a look now at the unbelievable damage he allegedly did before he was stopped. -- 13 people are dead -- 13 -- 12 military personnel and one civilian. Another 30 people were wounded, some of them multiple times.
Hasan was shot. He is not dead, but we are learning more about him every single hour now.
CNN's Sean Callebs is live for us in Fort Hood for us this afternoon. And we will hear from CNN's Barbara Starr -- she is our Pentagon correspondent -- in just a moment.
We want to get you to the ground, just holding a press conference there a short time ago.
Sean Callebs, what are you learning from the scene?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, thanks, Don.
The Army secretary, as well as the Army chief of staff, just holding a news conference here that wrapped up a short while ago. And we should also point out that before that newscast started, there was a moment of silent here at Fort Hood and at all military installations across the United States, thinking back on just 24 hours ago, when Major Hasan allegedly unleashed just that massacre here on this base.
Right now, authorities are trying to determine exactly what could have triggered Hasan to march into this area, open fire on all those people in the processing center. They don't have a whole lot of information or they are not releasing a lot of it right now.
What we do know is simply because of the training that a number of the military soldiers had inside, as well as the civilian officers, really credited with saving a lot of lives.
We're hearing specifically about the stories of heroism, Don. We heard about Kim Munley. She is the civilian police officer who shot Hasan four times. And we talked to a first-responder who arrived shortly thereafter who said Hasan was unconscious when he arrived. We don't know if authorities have had a chance to talk with him.
We do know from a news conference a little while ago no charges have been filed at this moment. There's also a great deal about what Hasan did leading up to this. Ted Rowlands, who is working the angle on what could have triggered this, he talked to some of Hasan's neighbors. Hasan apparently gave a number of copies of the Koran to his neighbors in his apartment complex, also walking to his next-door neighbor and saying, you can have all my furniture. I'm scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan. I am not coming back.
But, Don, what a lot of people want to know is, did he come here specifically knowing that he had no intention of returning to his home, that he was just going to unleash as much terror as he could and perhaps die in the process -- Don.
LEMON: We're going to find out much, much more about him. I'm going to talk about Barbara Starr in a little bit. But you were talking about acts of heroism.
And I think it's more -- it's important to talk about the people who helped in this and the victims than this guy who went on this rampage yesterday, Sean.
CALLEBS: Sure.
LEMON: People were ripping off their clothing and T-shirts and trying to help the victims as well.
I also want to talk about when it comes to him, there's a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of things that are not facts, talking about Muslim Americans and whether or not he was involved in some sort of terrorist activity. That all has to be investigated and worked out.
CALLEBS: Exactly.
And I think that -- I had a chance to speak with a longtime friend of mine. He used to be head of CAIR. It's the Council on American-Islamic Relations. I talked to him last night. And he said, basically, this is the worst fear for Muslims across the United States to have somebody go into a military installation like this, unleash terror and perhaps unleash a whole tide of hate against Muslim Americans. And he's concerned about that. Will there be a backlash?
Let's talk about the heroism that was experienced here yesterday. The big thing about -- 90 percent of the troops that do come through this base go through an incredibly complex battlefield military training, so that they're trained to handle any kind of casualties that they come across.
And that's the reason that more people didn't pass away yesterday.
LEMON: Yes.
CALLEBS: We talked about these troops who ripped their clothes off. They all carry Leathermans. They sliced their clothes up, used them as bandages. We heard about a private who loaded four of his buddies in a truck and drove them to the hospital. And those four people are alive today.
So, we're going to hear more about this. I can guarantee you that.
LEMON: And that's what those men are trained to do is help out on the battlefield. But, unfortunately, it was not on the battlefield. It was where they live and breathe and the place that they call home.
Hey, Sean, will you stand by real quick, because I want to get some new information from Barbara Starr? She's our Pentagon correspondent.
Barbara, my first question to you is, the Defense Department, what are they saying right now about this man, Major Hasan? Have they released any information?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Don, they are really emphasizing this is a law enforcement investigation.
The Army's criminal investigative division, the CID, is the lead investigating agency, along with the FBI and other military and civilian law enforcement official, dozens of agents we are told now at Fort Hood from various agencies investigating this matter.
Here at the Pentagon, just like at Fort Hood and so many other installations across the country, a moment of silence was observed just a little while ago. We were out there as hundreds of people gathered on a chilly afternoon, people mentioning that they had not seen anything like this at the Pentagon, of course, since 9/11.
What is going on is the chief of staff of the Army, General George Casey, in that press conference you just saw at Fort Hood a few moments ago, mentioning that the Army and the military looking at force protection security measures if you will at bases across the country. Is there something that needs to be changed?
But what I can tell you ask these military bases like Fort Hood are part of the community, just like the Pentagon, part of the community in which they live. They interact with the community all the time. At Fort Hood, several schools on the base, thousands of children come in and out, going to those schools.
And this is an integral relationship across this country between military bases and the towns in which they reside. So, there is reasonable security. Is it foolproof? No, but, as one official told us, nobody expects the enemy at the gate -- Don.
LEMON: Barbara, a moment of silence and really national mourning here. Let's listen to the president on how he weighed in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are families, friends, and an entire nation grieving right now for the valiant men and women who came under attack yesterday in one of the worst mass shootings ever to take place on an American military base.
So, from now until Veterans Day, I have ordered the flags at the White House and other federal buildings to be flown at half-staff. This is a modest tribute to those who lost their lives even as many were preparing to risk their lives for their country. And it's also a recognition of the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to protect our safety and uphold our values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And, Barbara, you heard from the president there. We are in mourning here.
But, very quickly, Barbara had to go and deal with some other -- there's some other information she wants to get. But they're going to be dealing with how our men and women in uniform, when they come back, how to treat them better, so that things don't happen like this, if it is indeed post-traumatic stress disorder or whatever happened.
A lot of people -- Fort Hood lost more people than anyone else in the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq and a very high suicide rate now among our military men and women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an exchange of gun fire, she was wounded, but wounded the shooter four times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This police officer is the first-responder who took down the gunman. It is an amazing story that you have got to hear.
And more discouraging news for job seekers. We have been talking about the president and what is happening at the White House. Job numbers are out, and they are grim, very grim. We will talk with the White House live.
And the latest out of Orlando, Florida, on the deadly shooting in an office tower. We're all over the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK, a very busy day and lots of developing and breaking news here. One person is dead, five wounded in an horrific workplace shooting in Orlando, Florida. Police say 40-year-old Jason Rodriguez walked into his former employer's offices just before noon and he started shooting.
A couple of hours later, he was captured at his mother's house just about six miles away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot? Jason, you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you do it?
RODRIGUEZ: They left me to rot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers?
RODRIGUEZ: No, I'm not...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who left you to rot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Jason Rodriguez in police custody there, that courtesy of our Central Florida News 13. If you didn't hear, he said his employers left him to rot, left him to rot.
He had been an engineer at Reynolds Smith & Hills. The company says he was fired due to poor performance more than two years ago after working there for only 11 months.
Before we bring in our Mike Brooks, I want to take a look now. There Mike is.
Mike, I'm going to talk to you about this. I want to show you where he was apprehended, though, first, about six miles away, just to give you an idea of how far he went, because there was a manhunt going on here for quite some time.
They didn't know where he was, but, apparently, as it turns out, he was at his mom's house some six miles away from that office building.
So, now, let's bring in Mike Brooks, who works for HLN as an analyst here. And he's also a security expert, former police officer.
So, Mike when you hear this and I think people around the country are concerned as we're talking about the jobless numbers today and we're talking about the economy -- they're worried about what could happen in their workplace. And, although you see these, these are not -- these rare, am I correct?
(CROSSTALK)
MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, there is. It is rare.
You know, they are called going postal...
LEMON: Right.
BROOKS: ... because they always kind of looked at that incident. And -- but the bottom line is, it's workplace violence, Don. And, you know, he said, they left me to rot.
Who's they? He has not worked at Reynolds Smith & Hills for two years. What he's been doing from 2007 until now? Apparently, one of our affiliates reported he just filed for bankruptcy, basically flat broke.
So, you know, was it that employer? But why did he go back to that employer? Because they fired him? Did he have an issue with someone...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Or did he have to blame someone?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Because when someone -- usually, if you're in that mental state, it's never your fault, right? That's what people believe.
And let me just update you on what you said. You said -- we spoke to the CFO and the chief legal counsel -- his name is Ken Jacobson -- at the beginning of this newscast. And he said he was let go in June of 2007, as you said, for performance issues.
BROOKS: Yes.
LEMON: But he said he was only employed there for 11 months. He wasn't employed there very long.
BROOKS: No. He was an engineer working on transportation issues, basically with Florida Department of Transportation, some of the projects they had going with them.
So, poor performance. Where did he come from before that? And was that the real motive? Is there something else underlying that was just eating at him inside? Because usually when you have an incident like this, Don, something with 24 to 48 hours up this, something usually happens that basically pushes the person over the edge, hopeless, helpless, that they go and they decide to perform a violence -- workplace and a violence incident like this.
What exactly happened? Now, the investigation, they're going to go back. They're going to take a look at his computer. They're going to take a look at everything he has done, who has spoken to, what he has said up until now to see if there were any signs that this was going to happen.
But it's something that all companies who let employees go, they're always concerned about.
LEMON: Here's the thing. We have security here. Obviously, we're a media company and people getting in, so it is tough to get in here.
BROOKS: Sure.
LEMON: But even most offices, I can't even walk into my doctor's offices now, the building, without some sort of I.D. or people checking. How did he get into this place?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: A lot of places still, Don, you come in, they might have a reception/security desk there, but if you come in and you act like you know where you're going, and there's no card access to get into the elevator.
I was just in Dallas the other day, and you had to -- you get into the elevator, and you had to swipe a card before you even pressed the button to get to certain floors in this building. That is good security. It doesn't sound like that they had much security here.
And an engineering firm, would you need that much security? I started at the program -- a workplace violence program after I was in law enforcement with Delta Air Lines. And these are always concerns. Every time you fire an employee, you change codes, you change cards. But you can only do so much.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much.
And this is just on a day when we were talking about -- the White House is saying the stimulus word.
BROOKS: Yes.
LEMON: We're getting the unemployment numbers in. It's really sad that this guy his former employer left him out to rot.
BROOKS: And Fort Hood, that's a very secure base, that's also considered -- would be a workplace violence incident.
LEMON: HLN, law enforcement analyst Mr. Mike Brooks, always a pleasure, sir.
BROOKS: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: You have great information. Thank you very much.
We're going to be talking to the White House in just moments about those jobless numbers and about whether or not the stimulus is working. It's grim news about unemployment again.
Talk to the White House next. We have got it all covered for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Hello, everyone. Don Lemon in here today for Rick Sanchez.
I want to bring you up to date now on that tragic shooting in Orlando, Florida. Now, I want you to watch this. It is something we rarely see, the suspect, Jason Rodriguez, speaking with reporters while he was in handcuffs about an incident in which he is alleged to have done. And left one person dead and many more bound wounded and injured. He is upset with his former employers he says because they left him to rot.
Watch and listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you have anything to say for yourself? Do you have anything to say, sir? Sir, why did you do it?
JASON RODRIGUEZ, SUSPECT: They left me to rot.
REPORTER: Why did you do it? Why did you do it?
RODRIGUEZ: They left me to rot.
REPORTER: They left you to rot? You're mad at your employers? Who left you to rot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, it's very interesting that he would speak about this at this moment. Pretty bold, I would say that he would say that, especially after what he's accused of and then he ran to his mom's house.
Rodriguez was let go more than two years ago from the Orlando engineering firm where he allegedly entered today and then opened fire and killing one person and wounding -- as we said -- five others. He only worked there for about 11 months, according to people who worked at the company. He was tracked to his mother's home where he reportedly surrendered and they said he did it peacefully.
The Army's chief of staff calls a mass shooting or the mass killing at Fort Hood, Texas, a kick in the gut to Fort Hood and the entire Army. The alleged shooter, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, remains in a coma today. Hasan is blamed for the 13 killings.
Let's get now to the economy. It may have awakened, that's what we're told. But don't tell that to the swelling ranks of the jobless. For the first time in a full generation, the nation awoke today to the frightening news of double digit unemployment. The jobless rate shot up last month to this -- 10.2 percent.
And look at this number with me -- 190,000, that's the number, the net number of jobs that vanished last month. Just vanished, that's according to the figures that are out today. And let's also look at this -- the total number of people now out of work is nearly 16 million. Sixteen million people out of work, more than the populations of Chicago, New York and Los Angeles -- guess what -- combined.
So, we're going to give you some perspective on all of this, because the last time the nation faced double-digit unemployment, this guy was in the White House, and that was former President Ronald Reagan, the late Ronald Reagan. The jobless rate under Reagan hit 10.8 percent. And today, it was on the shoulders of President Barack Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When we first came into office, our immediate goal was to stop the free fall that caused our economy to shrink at an alarming rate. We've succeeded in achieving that goal, as our economy grew last quarter for the first time in a year. But history tells us that job growth always lags behind economic growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. I'm going to talk in just a moment with a White House economist Austan Goolsbee -- you see him right there. Get ready. We want to talk about this because lots of Americans have lots of questions about this.
But first, I want to look at a few more numbers for you that show how bad this is. In the retail sector, 40,000 jobs just totally gone, eliminated last month. Manufacturing: 61,000 jobs gone, eliminated. Construction: 62,000 jobs gone.
And just one more number for you, I told you about the rate of unemployment, 10.2 percent, but the Labor Department tells us that if you factor in the people who are underemployed or have just quit searching for work, the rate goes up to 17.5 percent -- which gives us a better picture of where we are today.
So now, it's time for Mr. Austan Goolsbee, he is the White House chief economist.
OK. So, you hear that. When you say 10.2 percent, when you factor in people who are just given up or underemployed, it goes up much higher than that. We know what the economy was when the president took office, but there are economists out there saying that, you know, the numbers just really aren't quite right, the stimulus didn't really do it. It was too small.
What's your response?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF ECONOMIST: Well, for anybody who's saying the stimulus hasn't worked, I think they're deeply misguided. I mean, the month the president took office, we lost 750,000 jobs. The good news is we clearly changed the trajectory which was going down and down and we're now slowly getting better, but -- I mean, the job market is a long slog.
The only good news in this report -- it's a bad labor report, one that was expected. The president months ago said he predicted the unemployment rate would go into the double digits, and it has now. The only two pieces of good news are: number one, we see in the GDP report that the economy has finally started growing again. And in all previous recoveries, we know that you have to get the economy growing as a precondition to turning the labor market around, even though it takes some time. You got to do that first.
And the second is that if you -- two things come out with the job numbers. One is the current month's jobs, but the second is they go back and look with the better data and what happened in the previous months, and those previous months were revised upward. So, it looks like the trajectory was getting a little better at a bit faster rate than we have been thinking. But it's clearly going to be a tough slog.
LEMON: But don't you -- don't you see how the numbers appear to be a little bit deceiving when you -- again, because some people have just -- as we say, and I want you to really talk about this -- some people, it's just so bad or they've looked for work for so long, they're so exhausted, they have just given up. So, it's not really 10.2 percent.
GOOLSBEE: Yes.
LEMON: It's just higher than that.
GOOLSBEE: No, I agree with that. But that's no different than in previous recessions, that underemployment and out of the labor force problem is always a problem.
LEMON: The difference is that -- the difference is that this is one of the worst recessions that we have had. It's one of the worse.
(CROSSTALK)
GOOLSBEE: I agree with that. That is why -- look, Don, that is why you should not expect kind of a one-month turn around of the unemployment rate, even once the economy turns around, which we're seeing the beginnings of. And even once we start creating jobs, the unemployment rate may still rise because there are people who got so discouraged they dropped out of the labor force. And when they finally come back in, they will add to the unemployment rate, even as the economy grows.
Everybody has known that. That was fully predicted and that began almost when the recession started in December of 2007. You started seeing this underemployment problem quite seriously.
LEMON: Is there -- is there a concern from the administration that these jobless numbers, the job losses are going to start dragging the economy back down again?
GOOLSBEE: Well, I -- the job market tends to lag the economy. So, I don't think there's as much concern about that. But there is a serious concern that we can't pull-up too quickly and declare victory.
And you saw some people on the Republican side saying when the GDP number came out, "Hey, let's cancel the whole second half of the stimulus because we don't need it anymore." I think this shows you that's not true. Let's make sure we're out of the woods. Let's get the economy turned around. Let's keep pressing. It comes with a lag, but then let's get the job market turned around.
And it's not easy being an economic advisor at this moment in the White House, because every day for the last nine months, you know, the president comes in and says, "What are you doing to get the job growth in the country?"
LEMON: I got to tell you though, but you know what? Mr. Goolsbee, at least you have a job. It's not easy being someone who's, you know...
GOOLSBEE: That's true.
LEMON: ... watching this newscast from your couch instead of your office cubicle.
Really quickly because I'm up against a break, any chance of a second stimulus here?
GOOLSBEE: Well, you know, the president has said publicly that he's open to all ideas from either side of the aisle and he's looking at a lot of different things to stimulate job growth. You have seen the relief efforts coming through Congress about...
LEMON: But any chance, though?
GOOLSBEE: ... unemployment benefits and housing. And I would say you'll continue to see the president pressing on a lot of fronts on how to get the job market going.
LEMON: But a chance of a second stimulus -- is there a chance...
GOOLSBEE: But what I'm describing is...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: ... going to ask for a second stimulus?
GOOLSBEE: Well, as I just described, there are several things that are about trying to get to the economy going and provide relief, and there are several things he's considering about how to stimulate job growth.
LEMON: All right. You didn't say no, so I guess that's part of the possibility.
Thank you, Austan Goolsbee, who is the White House chief economist. We appreciate it. Have a great weekend, OK?
GOOLSBEE: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People sometimes have things going on with them that you don't know about and they don't share with you, and they make bad choices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Back now to our break news stories. So, who is the alleged gunman accused in the yesterday's shooting spree at Fort Hood? And what led him to make this bad choice? Our Brooke Baldwin joins us from that side -- with that side of the story coming up in just a little bit.
And then we're going to take you back to Orlando, Florida, where a man apparently went into an office building and opened fire. Police say he killed one person and left five others injured. We're going to hear from him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're following two breaking news stories here. We're talking about the office shooting in Orlando, Florida, and then that tragic shooting yesterday at Fort Hood.
Let's get some of your viewer feedback right now. This one is from Twitter -- we're also talking about the economy as well. Here's what CEMD says, "Wow," @DonLemon, "at least you have a job line was a total win." I was talking to someone at the White House.
"Hey, Don, was the attire Hasan wore in the store sacrificial? Find someone to elaborate, by the way, no-tie-Friday for you." All right, thank you for that.
Let's see. "Everyone should know why. It's because of the lack of caring and humanity in our society, most people don't care for each other." "Don, you got that right. He ran to his momma's house. In so many ways, this Jason Rodriguez is not a man -- is not a man."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. ROBERT CONE, FORT HOOD, TEXAS: In an exchange of gunfire, she was wounded but wounded the shooter four times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, they initially thought she was killed in a mass shooting at Fort Hood, but we now know this officer is not only alive but also being called a hero for stopping the alleged gunman. Her compelling story -- just moments away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now to that tragedy in Fort Hood, Texas, now. It is awful and it's also mysterious. You know, this place, this enormous Army post where we saw that tragedy yesterday, if there is anywhere on earth where U.S. soldiers should expect to feel safe and protected, it is behind the gates of a secure military installation. So, that didn't happen yesterday.
We want to bring in our Brooke Baldwin to talk about this, because, you know, it's not what you would expect, Brooke, from a commissioned officer in the shootings that happened yesterday.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Uh-huh.
LEMON: What did you learn about Nidal Malik Hasan? What did you find?
BALDWIN: Let's do a quick rundown of what we know background- wise.
LEMON: OK.
BALDWIN: First of all, he is a U.S. citizen, born and raised in Arlington, Virginia. Thirty-nine years of age, single, of Jordanian descent. In fact, he is a devout Muslim.
I think it's worth rolling this video again, Roger, if you can, at a video, there he is, in traditional Arab garb. This is 6: 20 a.m. yesterday morning, hours before those shootings, on post here, walking to his car from the 7-Eleven there.
We know that he went on to attend local northern Virginia schools, attended Virginia Tech, came out of Virginia Tech and then essentially joined the U.S. Army and spent much of his adult life in the Army. And that is where he received his medical education. He trained to be a psychiatrist and then went on to Walter Reed Medical Center. Of course, that being in northwest Washington -- and that is where he basically worked in treatment of PTSD.
Here's the irony here, if you will, working with combat stress. Spent a couple of years there, transferred to Fort Hood earlier this year. In fact, the Pentagon unit has just confirmed today that it was Afghanistan where he was set to deploy to, and there were reports out there that he was hesitant about that deployment.
He worked at the post at his hospital. We spoke with his hospital commander and basically, Hasan's role in that hospital was taking care of soldiers with behavioral problems and also evaluating people who had disability evaluation.
A family spokesperson has talked to CNN, saying really, Hasan had spoken out...
LEMON: Yes.
BALDWIN: ... since the terrorist attacks on 9/11, speaking out saying, "I want to get out of the military," that he'd been taunted since 9/11.
LEMON: Yes. He said he wanted to get out and couldn't. As you said, and he had been criticized for it, and apparently was taking that very hard...
BALDWIN: Right.
LEMON: And he was about to be deployed. So, here's the thing, and there were some things about his background that police are investigating, especially the apartment thing, especially giving the Quran away, and things that in it (ph). Talk to me about the apartment and also what they found out by talking to neighbors.
BALDWIN: Yes. So, FBI all over this...
LEMON: All right.
BALDWIN: ... spending several hours yesterday, combing through his trash, talking to neighbors. In fact, neighbors saw him hours before the shooting yesterday afternoon, saw him cleaning out his apartment. In fact, apparently, Hasan told one of his neighbors, gave her 60 bucks, "Here's some money, can you clean out my apartment?" And he himself cleaned out his apartment.
You heard Sean Callebs talking about how apparently he told his neighbor, "I'm being deployed." So, it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for her. It didn't necessarily ring alarm bells. And now, we know.
LEMON: Thank you very much. And, you know, we haven't confirmed what exactly what his nationality was. We're not sure if he's Jordanian, for certain. But we're going to look in to that.
And, Brooke, that is great information and we want to know what people are saying about him, and the details happening moments as this went down.
BALDWIN: Yes.
LEMON: Perhaps we'll hear that from this person, because he saw his friends wounded, bloodied and then he reacted very quickly -- one of the first responders on the scene. We're going to go live to this young man right here. His name is Sergeant Chris Gray.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Back now quickly to that horrible Fort Hood shooting that happened yesterday in Texas.
And I want to show you a picture right here. You see this woman. Her name is Kimberly Munley. She is the wife of a soldier and an officer with the Fort Hood Police. The commanding general on Fort Hood says the massacre could have been much, much worse had it not been for her quick actions. Really, they're calling her a hero.
Kimberly Munley, I should say, and her partner responded to that shooting and despite being wounded herself, she shot Major Nidal Malik Hasan four times. He is not dead, but 13 people are, all believed to have been gunned down by Hasan -- and really, her quick thinking and heroism.
At first, they thought that she had died in this. It turns out she wasn't, and that is good news.
I want to turn now to one of the first people on the scene, one of the first responders. His name is Sergeant Christopher Gray.
Thank you so much. A terrible couple of hours for you, I can only imagine how you guys are dealing today.
SGT. CHRISTOPHER GRAY, U.S. ARMY: Absolutely.
LEMON: Take me back to the moments when you first got to that scene, right when you got there. Tell me what was the case when you showed up?
GRAY: It was panic -- a lot of panic going on. I wasn't actually there at the time that the incident went down. One of my soldiers was there, and he called me immediately. Just -- I couldn't make out what he was saying. I heard shots, and I heard one of our guys, so, you know, what do you do? What do you do at a time like that? I don't know.
LEMON: Yes, you're the first -- I'm sorry?
GRAY: We got in a vehicle as soon as we could to head down to the site. But by the time -- by the time, we were getting close to the site, we had to redirect and go to the hospital because one of my soldiers was getting transported to hospital at the time.
LEMON: OK. We understand that this was -- in the beginning, they thought that this was a drill until one person on the scene saw the person next to them go down and realized that this wasn't a drill. And, you know, there's all sorts of misinformation about what happened at the scene and all sorts of speculation. So, probably a better way of putting it about, you know, things that this -- that this man allegedly said and what he allegedly did, can you just talk to our viewers and tell our viewers with honesty about what the officers were reporting to you about this man's actions, his words as he went into the shooting spree -- allegedly went into the shooting spree?
GRAY: We -- I mean, we know just as much as you know right now at our level, you know? Since I wasn't personally there, I couldn't comment on that. I would have to leave that to the soldiers that were involved in the incident at the time.
LEMON: But, Sergeant, I'm sure, and maybe you just don't want to talk about it, I'm sure the people who were there, the comrades who were there, are reporting back to you and that you have spoken to them. What are they saying to you about the circumstances surrounding the shooting?
GRAY: They're all really confused right now as to why such a thing would happen. I mean, you know, you -- you come to a place, you think it's safe, you think it's home, and how do you deal with something like this? I mean, down in Iraq or in Afghanistan, you have a certain edge about you to deal with these things as they happen. You don't have that edge here. This is a place where you're supposed to feel safe, and they feel extremely vulnerable right now because of it.
LEMON: Do you know the suspect, Major Hasan?
GRAY: I -- I have no...
LEMON: You don't know him.
GRAY: I've never seen this person before.
LEMON: Never had any contact.
Listen, we know that Fort Hood has suffered tremendous losses in the two wars that we are fighting now, and we have heard about the suicide rate among the military, very high there. Is there something that you want to say to the people of America, the government, about helping the people, our men and women in uniform, who come back from war about what we should be doing or how we should be handling it?
GRAY: I would -- I would tell America that they need to raise up our soldiers because, you know, it's hard to come back to a place and people don't recognize you for what you do every day, what you sacrifice every day, what your fellow comrades sacrifice every day. It's hard to live that way if you come back. And re-adapting to society is a major part of coming back, and if you feel that way, how are you going to do that?
LEMON: Listen, our hearts go out to you, and we really appreciate you joining us. Best of luck. You're in our thoughts and our prayers, Sergeant Chris Gray, OK?
GRAY: Thank you.
LEMON: Another terrible scene that we have been telling you about today in Orlando, Florida. One person is dead, five wounded at a shooting at an office building. Police say 40-year-old Jason Rodriguez, a man you see right there in handcuffs, he went to the engineering firm where he used to work and then he opened fire.
Earlier this hour, I talked with the chief legal counsel for the company.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: One of the reporters asked him why he did it, and he said because his employer left him out to dry.
KEN JACOBSON, CFO, REYNOLDS, SMITH & HILLS (voice-over): We can't understand that statement. Mr. Rodriguez was let go from his employment almost 2 1/2 years ago, in June of 2007. This isn't a recent -- a recent event. And we have not heard from him in the intervening 2 1/2 years. So, we just can't -- we can't make any sense of this.
LEMON: We heard that he was let go because of performance issues. Can you talk to us about that?
JACOBSON: Yes. He was hired as an engineer one, which is kind of a beginning engineer. And his work performance was pretty deficient from the start. He only worked here 11 months. We tried to work with him to improve his performance, and then when we could not, we let him go in June of 2007.
LEMON: Were there any disciplinary issues or any issues with his personality that -- that stands out to you that you can remember?
JACOBSON: No, not at all. It was -- it was just the work product wasn't up to the necessary standards, but it wasn't anything else.
LEMON: It wasn't anything else, nothing that would lead to this sort of thing. Have you spoken to other people who worked there or at least victims' families?
JACOBSON: We have not yet. We're getting pretty sketchy information on who may have been injured and don't have full information yet.
LEMON: What happens next for the people who were there? They are going to need some type of counseling.
JACOBSON: Yes. We're working on that.
LEMON: And going to work on Monday is going to be a tough thing.
JACOBSON: We have -- we have a corporate plan that we have in place where people can seek counseling, and we're in the process of activating that now, not only for our people in Orlando. I mean, we're a very close company, and this is very traumatic for employees in our other offices who are good friends and know the people in our Orlando office.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. That was Ken Jacobson, the CFO and the chief legal counsel for Reynolds, Smith & Hills Company.
And our last few moments here, I want to get some viewer feedback because you guys are really weighing in on this, really hurt by it.
"Don, too many shootings, I'd rather go to sleep in my own world and feel like I never want to wake up. It is the only safe place." Some (INAUDIBLE) and his interview and a very shaken first responder right now, "Don, how safe can we feel if military bases get attacked?" "Hey, Don, what's going on? Is that employer not all have become so insensitive? Not excusing the shooter's actions, just pray."
Hey, we thank you for joining us right now. I'm Don Lemon. I'll see you here this weekend where we have a special for you Saturday night, 8:00, where we go behind the scenes in Fort Hood, Texas.
In the meantime, I want to toss to my friend in Washington, D.C., right now, Mr. Wolf Blitzer with "THE SITUATION ROOM."
