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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Kathy Griffin; Interview With Sir Ian McKellen
Aired November 06, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, everybody`s favorite gay man, Kathy Griffin, will be here to talk some trash and talk about her new holiday album. Will she be naughty or nice? What do you think?
Then Jon and Kate; these two are like Thanksgiving dinner. You think you`ve had enough but somehow there`s always room for a little more. We`ll discuss the never ending drama.
And joining me in the studio a man with whom I have a lot in common. He`s been knighted by the queen and not been known to act like one, the fabulous Sir Ian McKellen.
All this and more starts now.
She`s a comedian, she`s an author and she`s a self-proclaimed fame whore. Who is it? She`s Kathy Griffin and just in time to exploit Christmas. She has released a new stand out album "Suckin` it for the Holidays." She also the author of the Official Book Club Selection which I`ve heard is quite a shocking except, of course, I heard that from her.
Hi Kathy.
KATHY GRIFFIN, COMEDIAN: Hi Joy, how are you?
BEHAR: Look at her, we`re two red heads, aren`t we cute?
GRIFFIN: And I love the way you say self-proclaimed fame whore because you emphasized the whore which if find juicy.
BEHAR: I know, well it`s accurate, isn`t it?
GRIFFIN: It`s awesome.
BEHAR: I know. So where did you get the title "Suck it"? Where is that from?
GRIFFIN: Well, I enjoy telling people to suck it.
BEHAR: "Suckin` it for the Holiday."
GRIFFIN: And most of my career.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Yes, because I think that this is going to be the best Kwanzaa ever, I really do. And this is an opportunity to get away from the kids, put down the Bible and enjoy some inappropriate material that, by the way, has very little to do with the holidays. It`s just an excuse to try to get a Grammy nomination and also everyone loves Christmas.
BEHAR: It has a parental advisory on the cover. I`ll just show it here.
GRIFFIN: It should.
BEHAR: It should, because it`s really quite dirty, is that what you are trying to say?
GRIFFIN: Yes. This is not for the kids. This is mommy and daddy time, or daddy and daddy time.
BEHAR: And, also, you know, you`re in a skimpy Santa costume again. Not again, it`s just skimpy again because it seems like you`re constantly without your clothes lately.
GRIFFIN: Yes, I have a banging bikini bod and in fact I like to show it off in a naughty porn costume as often as possible.
BEHAR: Do you think you look better than Valerie Bertinelli in the bikini at this point?
GRIFFIN: Yes, I think I look better than Valerie Bertinelli. And I looked better than Paris Hilton or even Nicki Hilton.
BEHAR: But how about Kirstie Alley?
GRIFFIN: I don`t look as good as Kirstie Alley because watching her on Oprah or watching her go to the grocery store or "In & Out Burger", no matter what she does, I do find her fascinating.
BEHAR: She is riveting, the girl is riveting. And she has a new -- she has a new reality show. I can`t wait to see it, can you? I love to watch that stuff.
GRIFFIN: I -- she absolutely is riveting. And I like when she went on Oprah and she had the kind of the crazy voice. And you know it takes a lot to freak out Oprah. So you have to really be nuts and allegedly -- I say that with love.
But I enjoyed on how she was describing a reality show as having a videographer -- a videographer in her house, which isn`t really how a reality show is done. That`s what you want to do if you`re -- a little bit nutty and you just want someone to follow you around with the camcorder.
But I hope she does have a show and I will watch every moment of it if she does.
BEHAR: Would you like to have another reality show, a completely different one where, you`re doing something else besides just talking about everybody and you know, running around, I mean, your show is great.
GRIFFIN: I...
BEHAR: But is there another concept in your repertoire?
GRIFFIN: Well, besides my soft-core porn career -- because I don`t think I should go right to the hardcore. You have to ease up into it, more of a show time after dark feel. I think that it`s important that, like you, I comment on things around me, celebrity culture. You do more of the political stuff and I do sort of more of the pop culture stuff.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: But I think people want to hear you and I say the things that they`re afraid to or shouldn`t.
BEHAR: Have you -- that`s true, I think it`s true. But I mean, how much trouble have you gotten in lately? Anything lately?
GRIFFIN: Well, let`s see. I`m sure Kirstie Alley is probably not happy with me after that last segment. Oprah is never happy with me, nor is Gail.
BEHAR: How about Barbara -- how about Barbara Walters?
GRIFFIN: Barbara Walters cannot be happy with me. Because in fact, my last Bravo special which just premiered this week, we just called it "Kathy Griffin Balls of Steel" has a story that you were present for when Barbara tried in vain to ditch me backstage at the "The View." And I hunted her down like an animal in the public women`s restroom.
BEHAR: Now you happen to know that the truth of the matter is, that Barbara is Barbara Walters, the icon, the living legend because one of the reasons is because she never went to the bathroom. All of those years -- no seriously.
That is her claim to fame. Because other people would have to go to the bathroom and they couldn`t get the call as fast as she could for the -- on watch the dot and every other person that she interviewed. What do you think about that?
GRIFFIN: Well, let me tell you something, I don`t doubt that for a second because as a woman, she had to work harder and jump higher.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Although, one of the times I was on "The View" I seemed to recall her saying that the woman`s movement is done now and that we`re done. And I believe Elizabeth Hasselbeck then compared Mandy Moore to Gloria Steinem, but I digress. Barbara did go to the bathroom the day that I was there and I`m sure regrets it.
BEHAR: She did go and you followed her?
GRIFFIN: I did that for her.
BEHAR: You followed her in there.
GRIFFIN: I followed her and knocked on the metal door of the stall.
BEHAR: And you always seem to like to put her into your act. I saw another one, which I won`t go into -- about some other -- other little tale out of school, something that you heard in the make-up room and then you went on the air with it. Now do you think...
GRIFFIN: I find her riveting as well and I respect her. And I love to make fun of her because she never gets my jokes or doesn`t like my jokes and therefore I have to make more jokes at her expense to her face.
BEHAR: Which do you think is, she doesn`t get them or she doesn`t like them or she just doesn`t think they`re funny or what?
GRIFFIN: She`s -- look, there`s nothing Barbara Walters doesn`t get. So she probably -- she`s just have had it with me at this point. And I can`t resist. She is my Brokeback Mountain. I can`t quit her.
BEHAR: I can`t quit her either. Ok.
GRIFFIN: You don`t have to.
BEHAR: I know, I don`t.
So the Christmas album, let`s talk about it, why is there no x-rated Christmas album really. You`re not talking about Christmas in this album.
GRIFFIN: Well, no. By the way, this CD is called "Suckin It for the Holidays" really to grab your attention. The language in the CD is much worse than that and I am out to offend a lot of groups.
Let me just read you some of the titles.
BEHAR: Ok.
GRIFFIN: One of them is just -- it starts with "Happy Kwanzaa" because I enjoy making fun of all religious groups and I enjoy Kwanzaa, because as far as I know, it`s a made-up holiday it`s only about seven years old.
And then there is a section about President Suze Orman. Because I believe that Suze Orman will and should be president.
BEHAR: Why.
GRIFFIN: And it`s only a matter of time because I`ll tell you why, because you want a nice financially focused dirty lesbian running this country. And the bailout would not have happened, none of this Wall Street mess would have even happened if America could have been in the "Can I Afford It" segments of the "Suze Orman Show."
BEHAR: yes, it`s true.
GRIFFIN: It`s only a matter of time before she`s President Orman.
BEHAR: Ok.
GRIFFIN: And then -- but I do try to offend many people and try to let no one get out unscathed.
BEHAR: All right, let me -- I want to play a snippet of your album for everyone to enjoy.
GRIFFIN: Ok.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: This is such a Hollywood thing to like say congratulations and have people just say thank you. So I decide to kind of make a parlor game out of it. So I suggest you guys try this. It`s really fun.
But people are such (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in Hollywood that I went to every single person at the party and I practiced it and I said congratulations and except Tina Fey, every single person there went thank you. And Tina Fey goes, for what? And I was like, oh, but it was so much fun like people in Hollywood are such (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that you can go to anyone and go congratulations and they will all just say, thank you, and walk away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s true.
GRIFFIN: That was a true story. I went to a party of this guy Ron Myers house who is some big movie bigwig. And someone went up to another person and they just said, oh by the way, congratulations. And I thought it was interesting that the person didn`t say what for. And I noticed more and more of this is a common Hollywood greeting, is you say congratulations but no one seems to say what are you referring to. They just say, hello, thank you.
BEHAR: You should move to New York again, like people just say, "Who are you again?" But...
GRIFFIN: And yes and they say, what are you talking about?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Congratulations for what? And screw you. And you`re in my way.
BEHAR: Where are the bigger jerks in Hollywood or politics in your opinion?
GRIFFIN: Hollywood, I would say probably has bigger jerks, but it`s a similar thing. It`s entitlement issues and they`re thinking they`re above the law and by the way, did you know there`s a new show coming on called "Steven Segal, Lawman"?
And I`m not, I`m in now way affiliated with the network of the show but you should know that Steven Segal supposedly is a police officer now and there`s a reality show about it.
BEHAR: Oh my God.
GRIFFIN: I`m super excited about it.
BEHAR: Ok, Kathy, stay with me, ok.
When we come back, a surprise you don`t want to miss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with comedian Kathy Griffin. Kathy, I understand it was birthday this week, you`re 39 right?
GRIFFIN: Yes. I`m 39 again. And I liked it so much the last few times, I decided to stick around.
BEHAR: I`m not the only one who wanted to wish you a happy birthday. I have someone on the line here for you.
GRIFFIN: Who is it?
BEHAR: Surprise, surprise. Say hi.
LEVI JOHNSTON, FATHER OF SARAH PALIN`S GRANDSON (via telephone): Hi, Kathy.
BEHAR: Guess who it is? Your boyfriend.
GRIFFIN: Levi?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Levi, I miss you, honey.
JOHNSTON: I miss you, too, happy belated birthday.
GRIFFIN: Well, thank you. I know it`s weird that I`m seven years older than you but I think we can make it work, Levi.
JOHNSTON: Yes, I know. You`re still looking good.
BEHAR: She is looking good.
So when are you two going to get married or something because the people are twittering me asking this question, why don`t they get married already these two.
GRIFFIN: I think my baby bump is showing and if I see Levi even look at another woman, I swear I don`t even know what I`m going to do whether we go a-hunting.
BEHAR: Levi, are you usually attracted to older women?
JOHNSTON: A little bit, yes. But this one really caught my eye here.
BEHAR: She caught your eye. What is it about Kathy that turns you on so much.
JOHNSTON: She`s got a really good heart to her. She`s really outgoing. She doesn`t mess around. She likes to beat me up a little bit.
BEHAR: Is it because in her new album she has Santa Claus between her legs? Is that what`s doing it for you?
GRIFFIN: There is a naughty picture, Levi, I should warn you. I don`t want Levi to fly into one of his famous jealous rages over a cartoon of me making out with Santa because, you know, nobody wins in that scenario.
And Levi and I, we just have to nestle up together in our igloo and make this thing work.
BEHAR: Levi, say happy birthday so we can let you go on your merry way because I know you have a very busy schedule.
JOHNSTON: All right. Happy birthday, Kathy. Hope to see you soon.
GRIFFIN: Thanks, Levi. I`ll see you soon.
BEHAR: Bye Levi.
You can see more of Levi Johnston, much more of him in "Playgirl" magazine...
GRIFFIN: A lot more is coming down the pike, believe me.
BEHAR: And this Monday on "The Insider". Thanks for calling in.
Ok. So, Kathy...
GRIFFIN: Come on. Was that not -- not one of my most genius schemes ever?
BEHAR: To what? To do what?
GRIFFIN: To be in a serious love relationship with Levi Johnston.
BEHAR: Well, you know, his mother-in-law might get pissed, you know, at you.
GRIFFIN: I am one step away from living in the White House Joy.
BEHAR: Are you going to buy "Playgirl" magazine? The "Playgirl" issue?
GRIFFIN: I`ve already seen the goods, honey. But, yes, of course I will.
BEHAR: You`ve seen the goods?
GRIFFIN: I`m sure that -- yes. I`m sure that mostly women will be reading that.
BEHAR: What`s your estimation of his goods?
GRIFFIN: I would say he`s going to need a very large fig leaf to cover it up.
BEHAR: Really?
GRIFFIN: Yes. It is something to behold. And women and gay men everywhere are going to be thrilled.
BEHAR: Exactly my point. Do you think that he realizes that "Playgirl" is not really read by women.
GRIFFIN: I don`t think he cares. I think, you know, he`s getting in great shape and he`s getting a paycheck. And Levi enjoys being in on the jokes. He likes playing along. He likes anything I think that is a middle finger to Sarah Palin and I`m with him on that one.
BEHAR: Ok. You know, other big news Kathy. We have more time to chat.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Oprah could be leaving her show. On your new album, we talked about when Suze Orman introduced to you Gail King.
Let`s listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: She says, "Hey, hi, Gail, what`s going on girlfriend? How you doing girlfriend? Gail King, Kathy Griffin. Kathy Griffin, Gail King."
So I, you know, thought of all (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`ve talked about, Oprah and Gail over the years, flashing before me in a tunnel of death and just looked at Gail and said, "Hi, it`s so uncomfortable to meet you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Kathy, how do you handle it when you meet somebody after you`ve been trashing them mercilessly in your act? How does that work out?
GRIFFIN: You know, I`m such -- I was so star struck that usually I`m so excited to see a famous person or meet them that I`m just happy to be in the room with them and also I like to observe celebrities.
And I`m hoping that one of them will have a fit -- one time Whitney Houston waved her finger at me because she was upset with me. I think I was calling here cracking McGee (ph). Or it might have been cracking the crackerson, I can`t remember.
But you know, you never know what reaction you`re going to get and sometimes they like it and sometimes they don`t and they`ll let you know it.
BEHAR: You`re sort of a schizy (ph) on it because you`re a trasher and then a kiss-ass.
GRIFFIN: Yes, I`m a kiss-ass and a trasher because I make fun of people but I also am a fan. But I like to make fun of them when they`ve left the room because I would prefer to talk about people behind their backs.
BEHAR: Who doesn`t? That`s the best.
GRIFFIN: Thank you. I find it very freeing and I don`t understand this whole philosophy of say something to my face. I was raised right and I wait until you leave the room.
BEHAR: I totally agree with that. I don`t care what people say about me behind my back either. Do you?
GRIFFIN: Just wait until I go to the bathroom. Or in Barbara Walters`s case, you know, that may never happen.
BEHAR: Did you hear that Oprah might be moving her show out of Chicago?
GRIFFIN: Wouldn`t you, if you had all that money, wouldn`t you just do it from the spare room at your mansion in Montecito.
Gail, he`s up your soup (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: She`s Oprah, there`s nothing she can`t do. I don`t know. Maybe she just wants to do it out of her basement or something.
I think she has made basically an Oprah biosphere where she`s made a bubble for herself and soon she won`t ever have to get out of her PJs to rule the world.
BEHAR: Well, you know speaking of that Ted Haggard, the minister who was gay and now he`s not gay...
GRIFFIN: Then he`s married and...
BEHAR: Either way, he`s on his knees, the guy. You know what I`m saying? But he`s also starting...
GRIFFIN: You know, it`s funny, the gays don`t even want him now.
BEHAR: I know. They don`t want him.
GRIFFIN: The gays that I know are just like, "Oh, you can keep him. We`re going to throw him back -- the baby with the bath water this time."
BEHAR: Exactly. But he`s started a new church out of his basement. I`m just saying.
So, let`s go back to Oprah for a second. But who will be the next Oprah, do you think? If -- let`s she moves and she jumps the shark and it`s all over.
GRIFFIN: Well, look, I think that Oprah hears footsteps and those footsteps are made by a lady named Tyra Banks. I think Tyra is coming down the lane. And she`s hungry, she`s got the eye of the tiger and she`s got the wings of the tiger. There`s nothing that Tyra can`t do.
BEHAR: Really, you really think she can be Oprah? I don`t know that she`s got quite that the -- the maternal thing going on that Oprah has.
GRIFFIN: Well, you know she raises models. She raises and nurtures models.
BEHAR: That`s true.
GRIFFIN: From Romania and Poland, all sorts of third-world eastern bloc countries and turns them into women.
BEHAR: Well, it`s like Angelina Jolie in a certain way. They have a similar thing. But I thought maybe...
GRIFFIN: But more important and more giving.
BEHAR: But why does the next president have to be an African- American? Maybe Rachel Ray is the next Oprah.
GRIFFIN: It could be Rachel Ray who also was discovered, of course, by Oprah. And she can do it all; she can cook and she also has empire. It`s got to be someone with an empire. That`s key.
BEHAR: Ok. What about Starr Jones? Remember Starr? She could do it.
GRIFFIN: Yes. I think -- once again, why does it have to be an African-American woman?
BEHAR: Exactly.
GRIFFIN: Why can`t it be...
BEHAR: How about you.
GRIFFIN: Lisa Ling.
BEHAR: Lisa Ling, there you go.
GRIFFIN: I have a problem which is I`m not a beloved or even slightly liked.
BEHAR: Yes you are.
GRIFFIN: My mother has always tried to tell me to be likeable. That I`m not -- my mother says I`m funny and smart but I`m not likeable. That`s how we have this big house, mommy.
BEHAR: Comedians don`t have to be liked. Well, we do, in a way. But anyway, here`s a twitter question for you that I liked.
This person says, "Kathy is a beautiful woman. Is she going to stop with the plastic surgery?"
GRIFFIN: Was that from Levi?
BEHAR: No. Maybe your mother.
GRIFFIN: Or his sister.
BEHAR: It`s from somebody in England, I think. What do you think about that?
GRIFFIN: First of all, I call it having "dental work". So, yes, I have been to the dentist a few times for...
BEHAR: Quickly, what have you done?
GRIFFIN: I`ve done pretty much whatever you can lift and although my boobs are the same and I`ve done a lot of refreshers and stuff although I haven`t done anything lately.
BEHAR: You`re looking good.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: It doesn`t really change your life the way I thought it would.
GRIFFIN: I was always going to try to still be inappropriate and funny.
BEHAR: You are always funny. And thank you for being with me again.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Her new album is "Sucking it for the Holidays". It`s in stores now and so is her book, "Official Book Club Selection".
Enough with the plugging; I`ll be back with more in a bit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRAN DRESCHER, COMEDIAN: Oh, I remember my first dance. I went with Richie Schneider (ph). He had two left feet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bit of a clutz, huh?
DRESCHER: No, he had two left feet. Some freak thing, his mother was an x-ray technician.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: We all remember her from the very funny sitcom, "The Nanny." She`s also an author, a cancer survivor and activist, and now the creator of a skin care line called the Fran Bran. And she`s here with me now.
Fran Drescher. Hi Fran.
DRESCHER: Hi, how are you?
BEHAR: Great. How are you? Everything good?
DRESCHER: Everything is fabulous. Thank you.
BEHAR: What`s the Fran Bran? Tell us about this stuff.
DRESCHER: That`s my new skin care line exclusive for HSN. It`s a beautiful extension of my women`s advocacy and my survival of someone that had cancer.
I`m nine years well, thank God. It came to my attention that many of the skin care products that we use have carcinogens or suspected carcinogens. And since the skin is the largest organ in the body, I felt like, you know -- and I take an estrogen patch. So I know what goes on the skin goes into the body.
I thought, you know, it`s time that I made available to myself and people like myself, meaning women in general, to have a skin care product that they can trust, that the ingredients are not going to be harmful to them.
BEHAR: They were all natural. Everything is organic?
DRESCHER: There`s organic ingredients. There`s natural ingredients. There`s botanicals in it. It`s wonderful. There`s no added fragrances. The beautiful smells that`s in the product are because of the ingredients that`s in it which is important.
It`s eco-friendly. It`s all in this fabulous old school glass jars, which is so wonderful. It`s like the cold cream jars that our moms used.
BEHAR: Yes, it reminds me of the old grandma`s things.
CRESCHER: And it`s made in the USA and it`s animal friendly and part of the proceeds go to Cancer-Schmancer which I`m very proud of.
BEHAR: Which is another thing that you`re involved in?
DRESCHER: Yes. We`re all about stage 1 and secure.
BEHAR: You had uterine cancer, right?
DRESCHER: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: And they misdiagnosed you. I know that story.
DRESCHER: So, you know, the Cancer-Schmancer movement we educate and empower women to know what the earliest warning whispers are of the cancers that might affect and the tests that are available so that they can become better partners with their physicians.
We want to transform patients into medical consumers. And it`s the 21st century and I think that that`s where we are heading so that if everyone were diagnosed in stage 1, 95 percent of the people would survive. And the main reason why we lose loved ones to cancer is due to late-stage diagnosis. And that`s changeable and reversible today.
Right now there`s...
BEHAR: Well, you`re certainly working for it. The changes -- so you really have thrown yourself into this.
DRESCHER: Yes, I`m very active in Washington and very involved in the current administration and I was also appointed...
BEHAR: How about the previous administration? How did they act? How did they behave in this case? Did they help you?
DRESCHER: I actually got a -- I was very instrumental in getting a bill passed that President Bush signed into law. And I was appointed public diplomacy envoy for women`s health issues during the last administration and now has carried over into this administration under Hillary Clinton at the State Department.
So, you know, poor health is the great equalizer.
BEHAR: I know.
DRESCHER: And it knows no party lines. Rich or poor, young or old, Republican or Democrat.
BEHAR: Thanks, Fran, for coming by. We`ll try these later.
DRESCHER: Yes. I appreciate it.
BEHAR: I`m going to give everybody here.
DRESCHER: Thank you.
BEHAR: When we come back, Jon and Kate. Oh, them again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know for me some stories are like The Godfather, just when I thought I was out safe, pull me back in. The never ending saga of Jon and Kate Gosselin is just like that, only without the horses head on my pillow. Earlier this week, the mother of 8, sobs about her sorry life in a one-hour special. And I asked my panel, including comedienne, Caroline Rhea, what they thought.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAROLINE RHEA, COMEDIENNE: This woman has suffered enough with that haircut. I mean --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And the rest of America. Yes.
RHEA: You know what, when prince charming left snow white, she missed him too. There were just the dwarves. Of course she misses him. She needs a personal assistant. She has eight children. How do you have any - - first of all, people don`t know this -- I don`t know if you`ve had children yet. But your libido is in your placenta and it is removed at birth and -
(LAUGHTER)
RHEA: And very smart mammals eat theirs. So I don`t know after --
BEHAR: Where are you getting your information?
RHEA: I have a baby and after 8 children, there is just no way that - -
BEHAR: Maybe her brain is in the placenta, not her libido.
RHEA: I feel bad for her.
BEHAR: Okay, she said that she`s still in love with Jon. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Do you still love Jon?
KATE GOSSELIN, JON AND KATE PLUS 8: A part of me always will. It`s hard to be married to somebody, I think, for ten years and try to say, no, I don`t love them anymore. It doesn`t really work really well. I love the memories that we have together. I love the good times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Ah, the good times. I`m sure she meant good times like these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE GOSSELIN: White sandals?
JON GOSSELIN, JON AND KATE PLUS 8: No, I`m saying flip-flops. Just let them wear what they want to wear so I don`t have to hear it all day.
KATE GOSSELIN: What? So we lose their shoes and they have nothing to wear?
JON GOSSELIN: Lost their shoes?
KATE GOSSELIN: I have enough to keep track of. This is what I`m saying. Stand with me or stand against me.
JON GOSSELIN: I`ll talk in here because I`m -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Fun. Fun. Fun.
That is riveting TV. That is some good stuff. Can we roll the rest of that? Because I have about five hours to spare. I want to see what happened with those shoes.
RHEA: I want to see her go into the room. That is where she keeps his balls. He`s never -
(LAUGHTER)
RHEA: Oh, sorry.
BEHAR: It`s all right.
RHEA: I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Now, Dawn, you`re the expert on pop culture. She hasn`t slammed Jon since they split. Is she taking the high road? Or is she worried about her career? What do you think?
DAWN YANEK, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, LIFE AND STYLE WEEKLY: Oh, I think it`s a combination of those two things. Like, look, of course, she`s mourning the loss of her marriage. It`s like a death when you split up with somebody especially after being with them for so long. But of course then there`s the cynical side of me, that works at Life and Style Weekly, that says, of course, she`s being PR savvy and she`s trying to make sure she has a career after this marriage has dissolved.
RHEA: It`s hard to pauses like that. You know what it is. Like in acting -
BEHAR: Pregnant -- It`s very hard.
RHEA: It took that long. It`s like David Mammoth pauses. It`s just like, oh, my god, they had another child during that last pause.
BEHAR: You know, Jon, by the way is getting counseling from Rabbi Shmuley. Is he a reformed man now, or what?
Yes. You know Michael Jackson also got counseling rabbi Shmuley. So I think maybe Rabbi Shmuley is not the ticket here.
(CROSSTALK)
I don`t think he`s the ticket to help --
RHEA: I love him and kosher sex.
YANEK: Perhaps, maybe, the best way to apologize to your ex-wife and children and family is not in front of a bunch of strangers at a Jewish center but perhaps at home, in private.
(CROSSTALK)
RHEA: This is how you communicate.
YANEK: This is true.
RHEA: You look directly into the camera and you say, "I`m very sorry. You`re turn." And now they do it. I can`t believe Kate Gosselin was one of the people who pimped her children. Oh my god -
BEHAR: She has the cutest baby.
(CROSSTALK)
RHEA: You know what? She`s going to be ovulating because she`s going so cute.
BEHAR: You know we`re having some women on later who actually have like 18 children, some of them. So stay tuned for that. But, anyway, let`s switch gears. Jay Leno said that if the NBC suites asked him to, he would return to The Tonight Show.
RHEA: They are not even old enough to wear suites. He`ll be waiting -- 12-year-olds run that network.
BEHAR: Should Conan be worried? Joe.
You know, Conan should be worried just because he`s been following Jay Leno for years. They make a change, they put Conan on the Tonight Show and they move Jay in front of him. The poor schmo is in the same situation he`s always been in and we`re still talking about Jay Leno. Hey look, you know what, I`m available too. If the NBC suites asked me to host the Tonight Show, I will do it. Will you do it?
RHEA: First of all, I love Conan. And Jay Leno is in denial that he ever left television or retired. He`s running the Tonight Show in daylight savings. That is all he`s doing. I would be so pissed if I were Conan. They should never have let him stay.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Jay should be pissed also. Jay should be pissed too.
RHEA: Well, then why did he -
BEHAR: They ruined his career.
RHEA: You know, oh really?
BEHAR: Do you really think that he did this on his own? Don`t you think that they pushed him into this? He was perfectly happy. He was kicking butt over there with high ratings. Then they give him this 10 o` clock spot because they want this younger version, which you and I should be a little annoyed at and you too, maybe soon.
(LAUGHTER)
RHEA: Thanks a lot. Okay. Go ahead.
This is getting a little brutal.
YANEK: Joe and I are almost the same age.
BEHAR: And the other thing is that Letterman numbers have gone up since the sex scandal. How do you like that? There`s a 13% increase in the ratings.
YANEK: Yes it`s absolutely hilarious. But of course, he didn`t commit the ultimate sin of ratings. Which is, he didn`t switch time slots so of course his went up. His viewers stood by him whereas Jay Leno`s oh wait you`re at 10 o`clock? Oh I can`t do this anymore; I don`t know what to do.
RHEA: Why does anybody care about Letterman`s affair? I understand if it`s a nurse and doctor and they have an affair and it doesn`t work out. And she passes in the wrong scalpel and somebody dies, you know what I mean. But this is a comedian who is beloved by all and yet --
BEHAR: What do you mean he`s beloved by all? That`s kind of a blank statement.
(CROSSTALK)
RHEA: You know I love Lettermen.
BEHAR: You love him and Conan. What about Leno, you don`t seem to love Leno.
RHEA: Well apparently you had some sort of bitter romance with him because -
BEHAR: I love Leno -
RHEA: You love Leno more than Letterman more than I`ve been in a married relationship forever.
BEHAR: I do. And I don`t think this would have happen to Jay Leno -
RHEA: No because nobody would have slept with him. There`s you`re reason. A lot of people love Letterman that`s why.
BEHAR: That is not true.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: In the old days before he married (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -
(CROSSTALK)
RHEA: I agree.
BEHAR: No you do -
RHEA: Oh really, am I looking at any of them?
BEHAR: No, you do.
RHEA: Am I looking at anyone right now?
BEHAR: Well, no you know me I`ve been married forever.
RHEA: You are not even married.
BEHAR: I am not married but I am in relationship, you`d excuse me I am as good as married.
YANEK: I agree I am in a relationship just like that.
RHEA: Well goody for you.
(LAUGHTER)
I have the feeling that I`m in a relationship just like sitting here right now.
BEHAR: Anyway, I think that Letterman`s numbers went up because people went there for the sex scandal and stayed.
I think Lettermen`s numbers went up because people tuned in after the sex scandal and found out that he is still funny. He`s been funny the whole time. Nobody had any reason to check. They were all lulled to sleep by Jay Leno saying, you know what happened today? Nothing happen. And it was funny.
BEHAR: This assault on Jay Leno cannot stand on this show. I will not have it.
RHEA: First of all, are you allowed to have your guests to have an opinion or are we all suppose to be like - we love Jay Leno.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can disagree with me but I`m going to fire right back. Now who do you think is going to retire first? Letterman or Leno - because they`re in the same age bracket - oh my gosh -
RHEA: You know what I, swear to god your age is at the tip of my tongue, right now.
BEHAR: We can delete anything, bitch!
RHEA: Thanks anyway because I believe I`m two years younger than Joy.
BEHAR: But looks like my mother. Go right ahead.
RHEA: Same generation -- you know, people our age, then she went like this -- excuse me, I`m in my 40s and you`re over 100 years old. Do not combine our ages, okay? You know what do you think, Carolyn or Fay or Joy -
BEHAR: Who do you think is going to retire first? Letterman or Leno or Conan? What if Conan was the first one to retire?
YANEK: It seems like Leno is going to take his cars and just go off the air and just do his own thing.
BEHAR: Here`s the thing. Leno will go on the road, he works in Vegas every week, he`s on the road every constantly. He spent not one time of his television money he only lives on his comedian money, this is smart.
RHEA: What does he do with his television money?
BEHAR: He stores it in the cars. I don`t know.
YANEK: He`s thinking of buying Oprah.
BEHAR: This is so much fun to see you guys, thanks and come again.
RHEA: I`ll be there -
BEHAR: This is serious - if you`re in New York City Saturday be sure to catch Ms. Caroline Rhea in New York Comedy Festival performing in afterbirth.
RHEA: It`s funny.
BEHAR: Its stories you won`t read in a parenting magazine. It must be funny if it`s got afterbirth in it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
He`s watching you now, you watch him.
Do it six because you want to -yes, you must.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well that kind of looks like a retirement community (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but it`s not. That was a scene from a new AM Scene Mini Series, The Prisoner debuting November 15th staring my esteemed guest sir Ian McKellen. Welcome to the show sir Ian, what do I call you? Sir Ian?
IAN MCKELLEN, ACTOR: Ian, please. Otherwise, I`ll call you Ms. Behar.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No just Joy.
MCKELLEN: Joy?
BEHAR: Joy yes. No because Kingsley, he insists on Sir Ben Kingsley. He`s very particular about it but you`re not - good.
MCKELLEN: I`d rather not be separated out from everybody else.
BEHAR: OK but he would like that. OK so before we get to the Prisoner and the wonderful series and the things you are doing, let`s talk about the trouble that we`re having passing a gay marriage laws in this country because I know that you are a very articulate spokesperson on the topic.
MCKELLEN: Well as often been a guy man I`ve got a great big deal of interest in that`s other issues and laws which discriminate against gay people and. And all I think is that gay people should be treated equally with everybody else.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCKELLEN: And I mean nothing to talk about and nothing to worry about. Out of the marriage established in the U.K. Something called the civil partnership for gay people. Which has all the rights of marriage without the name. Everyone seems to be caught up with the name. I don`t - -
BEHAR: You don`t care about the word?
MCKELLEN: No. I think if straights can get married I think gays should be able to get married. We got the ridiculous situation at the moment that we got this civil partnership, which you don`t get married, but it`s a legal contract, it has all of the rights that you can adopt and you can -- your partner can visit you in the hospital and all those things which get a bit muddies --
BEHAR: They inherit the money?
MCKELLEN: They inherit the money.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
MCKELLEN: And it`s only allowed for people who will living with some of the same gender. It`s not -- straight couples cannot have a civil partnership. So it`s the one law on the statue which discriminate against -
BEHAR: Straight people MCKELLEN: So it`s absolutely, stupid -- straight but everybody calls it marriage. Even the Times newspapers announces this --
BEHAR: Well I can see the point though if you`re heterosexual couples you have the right to get married. So get married if you want the benefits.
MCKELLEN: That`s right.
BEHAR: When did you realize that you were gay? When you were a child?
MCKELLEN: Well about the time when you realize that you weren`t an I suppose -
BEHAR: I thought about it in around kindergarten -
MCKELLEN: Oh you did?
BEHAR: I was attracted to a boy, Ralph Argentina, he became a priest. That`s what happens to my men.
MCKELLEN: Oh - that`s a problem, yes. Well I think first of all, I was attracted to girls and then I rapidly realized that images -- I like looking at, ancient statues for example, it wasn`t the women I was looking at but it was Michael
BEHAR: Michael Anglo.
MCKELLEN: Michael Anglo. And movies as well, it was always the men that I was looking at. And so I began to think -- that`s a bit odd. And the North of England, just after the last world war, you thought you were the only person who had ever felt like this before. It wasn`t a comfortable feeling
BEHAR: People didn`t talk about it?
MCKELLEN: Not talk about it - but if you did anything about it you could be put in prison, I mean - tons of men my age were put in prison for making love. It`s - we`ve come through difficult times.
BEHAR: It`s not all been like that throughout history. The ancient history Greeks were very tolerant, in fact, we`re acting -
MCKELLEN: And some of the marriages that were conducted by the Christian Church in the middle ages were between men.
BEHAR: Is that so?
MCKELLEN: Yes. So these attitudes are sort of Victorian. You know how Victorians were so disturbed by sex or at least say a public declaration of it.
BEHAR: And yet - and yet Victorian Albert were so enamored of each other and so out there with their little love affair. So they weren`t so Victorian even though a whole age was named after her.
MCKELLEN: Well that`s true. But they were naturally running the country. They were not actually running the government.
BEHAR: So they can do what they want? And also, the elite always seem to do what they want. But you were -- I read that you were 49 when you publicly came out.
MCKELLEN: Yes well, coming out can be a long journey, particularly for people like me of my generation. The kids today, I mean they`re out in their early teens. I`ve got an American friend that when he was 14 his mother sat him down and said I`ve got something to tell you. He said, what`s that, mom? And she said you`re gay. That`s a lovely way to discover it. Your mother tells you?
BEHAR: That is. It`s wonderful. And what do the kids say? No, I`m not.
MCKELLEN: No, he was - but I had to tell my stepmother when I was 49 and she dreaded it and she said, of course she`s known it all my lifetime. So everyone`s always worried about somebody else.
BEHAR: Well they say that - you know in this country it`s interesting the gay actors keep it a secret a long time. I think they feel it goes against their image in the movies. And yet the British actors don`t seem to have that problem.
MCKELLEN: Well I mean plenty of gay actors who`ve picked up the term here in New York and thank their partner from the stage. It`s some of the other sides of the continent and California that the film industry has a bit of a problem.
BEHAR: Oh yes, the theater.
MCKELLEN: Young gay people. Young gay performers. And I think we`re just wait until the first successful young actor of either gender, who says, honestly, comes out and say that they are gay, become overnight the most famous actor in the world and had a fantastic career, and this will all be over. But at the moment when they say, oh, it`s difficult for actors to come out, it`s difficult for politicians and priests and it`s difficult for everybody because society make it is difficult.
BEHAR: Right.
MCKELLEN: Get over it really is my view.
BEHAR: Yes. But you know an actor in the United States, the women like to have the fantasy, or so they tell us any way that the man, kissing a woman in the scene, that he loves it is. So if you know that the guy is gay, you might think he`s making a subs institution.
MCKELLEN: does that work for you when do you question whether he`s gay or straight?
BEHAR: I don`t. I don`t even like movies like that.
MCKELLEN: No, but I think that audiences are a little bit more sophisticated than that. They know that we are actors.
BEHAR: Actors, yes.
MCKELLEN: They know that we pretend to be. And I get more fan mail from women than I do from men.
BEHAR: Now you do?
MCKELLEN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now in the movie -
MCKELLEN: And it`s often very erotic - you know people, individuals work out their sex life. And they don`t need laws. They don`t need governments
BEHAR: Oh I know.
MCKELLEN: They don`t need State Council, they certainly don`t need priests to come in and tell them what to do.
BEHAR: Oh Contraire -- do not listen to the priests on that to do on that topic. In God`s and Monsters --
MCKELLEN: Because the priests don`t know anything about it, do they?
BEHAR: Well the priests are a repressed group of guys too who are --. They can`t marry and they hide in the priesthood very often.
MCKELLEN: Which is a problem.
BEHAR: I don`t really fault them as much as I do the hierarchy. They kept moving those from parish to parish thus not protecting children in the next. That`s a whole other story of pedophilia which is separate from homosexuality. I`m -- we`re always trying to be clear on that. In God`s and Monsters which I thought was a wonderful film that you were in. You actually are an older guy who comes onto a younger guy. But I was reading in research that I saw of you that you thought younger guys come on to older guys much more often. Is that true?
MCKELLEN: Well my goodness more often -- I`m very flattered and delighted when young guys come on to me and want to be with me and talk to me and do all sorts of things with me. You know each one to his own. I never really fancied older people. There are lads and lasses who do. So, you know --
BEHAR: Well you`re special because you`re, you know, not only -- you`re handsome but you`re, you know, talented and smart and wealthy and everything else. So you`re a good catch.
MCKELLEN: So they`re after my money. Joy.
BEHAR: No, not necessarily -- you`re a very, you know, a -- what`s the word I`m looking for in.
MCKELLEN: Charismatic.
BEHAR: Charismatic. That`s it. Thank you. And modest. I love -- I have one twitter question at this point. But I have to take a break because when we come back, I want to ask you this. We`ll be right back with Sir Ian McKellen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
I don`t think I believe all of this. My mother sat me sideways on the potty when I was a toddler so now I want to speak-
Oh, grow up, man.
What do you - have sex with your mother?
No, never.
Well don`t
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That was Sir Ian McKellen in the new AMC miniseries "The Prisoner." which by the way you said part of "The Prisoner" is about the nature of government today. You said that.
MCKELLEN: Yes. It`s a thriller, basically, but it`s a thriller with so many twists I couldn`t even go into it. But it`s really a commentary on the way the individual is treated by government, and, indeed, by corporation, big business. Surveillance and all that.
BEHAR: Surveillance and the --
MCKELLEN: That`s what I`m reducing it -- it`s about a lot of other things as well. Very, very stylish. Set in a village where people are extremely happy but can`t get out.
BEHAR: Can`t get out. You play number two. He can get out. Number two. He`s the boss.
MCKELLEN: Well you don`t know the plot.
BEHAR: I remember the first series.
MCKELLEN: Yes well.
BEHAR: It`s not that similar?
MCKELLEN: It`s not that similar, a. it`s a bit changed. I can`t even comment on that, I`m sorry. Not allowed to.
BEHAR: Oh.
MCKELLEN: I would give away the plot which would give no point in watching. I`m the guy who seems to be in charge. Jim is the guy who arrives and doesn`t like him and tries to get out -
BEHAR: Oh he played Jesus in that Mel Gibson movie.
MCKELLEN: Yes and normally Jesus kills off an actor`s career but Jim seems to be doing fine.
BEHAR: Really, is that true?
MCKELLEN: Look what happened to Jeff Hochberg. Remember him?
BEHAR: Oh yes, that`s true.
MCKELLEN: Oh yes, he was Jesus, he was very big.
BEHAR: What happen to him, he didn`t rise again, did he? You know you recently performed King Liar of -- a full frontal nude scene. Those theaters can get very cold, certainly.
MCKELLEN: It didn`t make much difference.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Was King Liar in the original Shakespearean concept, was he a nudist in.
MCKELLEN: Well he`s a little bit doughty, you know.
BEHAR: He`s a little bit doughty -
MCKELLEN: And a little bit mad. And he`s out in the storm and he`s shout in the offs about his life and about the nature of the universe and so on and sees a naked beggar in the storm and he suddenly sees he`s related to him. Even though he was king he wants to be like him. He starts to take his clothes off. That`s the end of the script, now how far you get with taking your clothes off is another matter.
BEHAR: Do you think they did that in the old - Vick?
MCKELLEN: No probably not but -- oh, the old Vick. Yes, the old Vick is a theater in London that isn`t that old.
BEHAR: No it`s not?
MCKELLEN: Now if you`re talking about centuries ago they probably didn`t But now, on the whole, kings did take their clothes off but I wasn`t allowed to do it on the DVD in case children saw it at home, because, of course, their parents don`t have genitalia do they.
BEHAR: No. Do you think that children are going to watch King Liar - they might?
MCKELLEN: Well if it`s any old boy came to see it and strapped - would have been able doing it -- he told me it`s the best play he had ever seen in his entire life.
BEHAR: Then let me get to a Twitter question before you leave.
MCKELLEN: Oh yes.
BEHAR: What were you thinking taking Monica Lewinsky to the Oscars?
MCKELLEN: Oh I met her at the Oscars and she was such a sweet girl and had such a bad time. And men have been so horrible to her from her boss, to her family, to her boyfriend - and -
BEHAR: She wasn`t such an innocent.
MCKELLEN: No, I`m not saying she was. She had a very, very bad time. When she was stuck in Water Gate, waiting for the trial, she couldn`t leave, she was in prison. Poor child treated badly. I felt sorry for her. She`s extremely -
BEHAR: Well we hope she can move on now, although I had so many jokes about h her, it`s pathetic. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
(CROSSTALK)
MCKELLEN: She`s as adorable as you are.
BEHAR: I know I`ll be nice to her. Catch him in "The Prisoner" on AMC, Sunday November 15th. Good night everybody.
END
