Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Jon, Kate Together for Christmas; Interview With Serena Williams
Aired November 11, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jon and Kate will be together for Christmas. Maybe Santa will drop some mood stabilizers in their stockings.
Also the guy accused of shaking down David Letterman says he was only making a sales pitch. I`m going to make him an offer he can`t refuse.
Then I`ll ask tennis champ, Serena Williams, about girls going wild on the playing field. Male athletes brawling is old news but now it seems as though female players have joined the fight club.
All this and a second serving of Paula Dean tonight.
Good news, the eight Gosselin children will be spending Christmas together. The bad news, their parents are going to be there too.
Joining me tonight are Faith Salie, commentator and writer for Slate.com. Robin Sax, former prosecutor and author of "It Happens Every Day inside the World of a Sex Crime DA" and Penn Jillette, magician extraordinaire and libertarian extraordinaire. Welcome guys.
So these kids are going to have Christmas with their parents.
FAITH SALIE, WRITER, SLATE.COM: Thank God.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s good?
SALIE: I think it`s good for all of us. I think that...
BEHAR: Why?
SAILEE: ... the Gosselins sort of embody the spirit of Christmas which is giving. They`ve given us comedic fodder and Halloween wigs and another reason to hate Ed Hardy, it`s good.
BEHAR: But don`t they -- what about the children? Now, what about the children, is Santa going to show up with like reindeer?
SALIE: Michael Lohan will be dressed as Santa.
BEHAR: Who?
SALIE: Michael Lohan, Jon`s best friend.
BEHAR: I don`t even know who he is.
SALIE: Lindsay`s, it`s Lindsay Lohan`s dad.
BEHAR: Oh, the Lohan guy. Yes, yes.
PENN JILLETTE, MAGICIAN/LIBERTARIAN: She was studying your notes. You know this guy.
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh in know, it`s the important thing.
JILLETTE: Wow.
BEHAR: Yes, you know, it`s this and the Freud (ph) and this.
SAX: The gift that keeps on giving only to us though.
BEHAR: But the cops were called in to mediate. What about the children, doesn`t it give them a false sense of security to be around these two at Christmas thinking that they`re then going to be going together again?
SAX: Well, I certainly think that from a legal perspective that whoever made the decision that joint custody meant joint Christmas wasn`t really thinking about the best interests of the children. They were thinking about the best interests of ratings and fodder for people like us to talk about.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t think it`s not going to be on television, it`s not going to be televised but that brings me to the next question, which is because it`s not going to be televised, do you think that they`re doing this, the Gosselins, to get on television? Is that too cynical of me, Penn?
JILLETTE: Well, I don`t know if somebody that has a show with their name on it can accuse people of going for publicity. I mean, I have a few of them with my name on it. You have show with your name on it. I think, well, that`s the way we see it, I guess.
But I don`t know, is it good for the children for people and all over America to be discussing how they`re going to spend their Christmas?
BEHAR: Probably not and the way these two are acting, these two have been slamming each other in public. Let`s look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": I was beaten down. I was -- she separated me from my family. And she used to hold the kids over my head and say, you know, "Don`t spend time with your mom, spend time with your kids."
KATE GOSSELIN, JON & KATE PLUS 8: He took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. And I have a stack of bills in my purse I can`t drop in the mail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SALIE: If that`s what they do in public...
BEHAR: Yes.
SALIE: How are they going to be with each other in private?
BEHAR: Yes.
SALIE: I mean, Jon did say that he wants...
BEHAR: Maybe they do it in public and not in private. Don`t you think of that?
SALIE: Well then, it would be good for the kids.
JILLETTE: There is no privacy is left, isn`t it?
SAX: That`s right and everything is for the both of the show, no matter what indirectly or directly, whether it`s televised or not, it`s still part of this whole publicity package.
SALIE: And she did -- Jon did say that he wanted the kids together to have all their old traditions which I think...
BEHAR: Yes.
SALIE: ... is like Kate hanging his balls on the tree things like that. So I hope that the kids have that at least.
BEHAR: Jon`s nuts roasting on the open fire.
Ok, let`s change topics.
JILLETTE: It`s your show.
BEHAR: It is. I mean, unless you have anything else you want to add to that.
SALIE: We`ll leave it at nuts, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes, this -- whatever.
The Letterman mess, ok. The latest news from court is that the man accused of trying to extort the late night host insists it was merely a business proposal gone horribly wrong and his lawyers are digging in for a long fight.
Will people be able to have sex at work again, ever again? I mean, what do you think about that story? Do you think its extortion or is it just that he was trying to sell a screenplay?
SALIE: You`re the lawyer.
BEHAR: Yes, let`s hear it from the lawyer.
SAX: As a defense attorney, this is the classic defense muddying up the waters. Let`s start throwing out the defense really early on and tainting our potential jury pool and making it think that it is a deal, a movie deal gone bad.
However, why are we at 6:30 in the morning seeing this man in David Letterman, the back of his car, why are we having mysterious dealings? And why is this something that smells a lot more like stalking and revenge than it does sound like the way traditional movies are done?
BEHAR: What do you think about that Penn?
JILLETTE: Well, I think stalking and revenge is the backbone of show business. I mean, I think that every showbiz business deal would look that way anyway.
SALIE: Right.
JILLETTE: I don`t know, I mean...
BEHAR: There`s a point.
SALIE: Yes.
JILLETTE: ... you said it was a business deal gone bad. I think that`s the definition of extortion, isn`t it? I mean...
BEHAR: I know, you`re the lawyer. Is that the definition of extortion?
SAX: No, extortion is not the definition to be as a business deal going bad but it is using and threatening to use or misuse someone`s position and to cast someone in a bad light and get money or get some sort of benefit in exchange for not revealing that information. And I see that all of the elements are right there.
Granted that the check writing happened, but that was all at that point after the police were contacted.
BEHAR: But they could make the case that he`s really just -- he slipped him the screenplay at 6:00 in the morning. It`s as good a time as any to give to a celebrity that you`re not going have a chance to see any other time.
SALIE: Oh but he gave it to his driver.
BEHAR: All right, it`s the driver and then he gave it...
SAX: With the condition I`m not going to tell about your sexual escapades. Let`s not forget that very key part. And let`s look at what David Letterman subjectively felt. And he felt that he was being used for money, which I think is an important part of an element of where this is.
BEHAR: Is that admissible, how I felt?
SAX: It is.
JILLETTE: But it is interesting with blackmail that it`s one of the only crimes that only becomes a crime when there`s money involved; it`s like prostitution that way.
BEHAR: Yes.
JILLETTE: He could have said all that stuff and be absolutely ok...
BEHAR: Without, without the $2 million.
SALIE: Right.
JILLETTE: ... but if -- blackmail is a fairly recent crime, right, the past 200 years or so. I mean, though, really, it`s not one that goes back like murder and you know, all the way back.
BEHAR: Well, let`s hear from the other side, Letterman`s attorney spoke to "Good Morning America." Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL J. HORWITZ, ATTORNEY FOR DAVID LETTERMAN: Who negotiates a business transaction at 6:00 in the morning in the shadows of somebody`s apartment building? Who says your world is about to collapse? Who threatens their personal and professional lives? And who says at 6:00 in the morning I need an answer in two hours?
Those are not the ear marks of a legitimate business transaction; those are the ear marks of classic blackmail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Did anyone ever try to sell you something at 6:00 in the morning, Penn?
JILLETTE: I believe people try to sell me something at every time of the day and night.
BEHAR: Would you buy that, or you bought it?
JILLETTE: I`m not sure -- what they`re selling at 6:00 in the morning, I want. But people -- I mean I think it`s pretty clear that there`s -- that that`s a pretty fake defense. But...
BEHAR: Well, let`s say, let me say, for example, Letterman is always doing jokes about Sarah Palin and he got in trouble with the daughter and that whole thing.
What if Sarah Palin`s people called him up and said, look, we`ll give you an interview if you stop doing the jokes. Is that blackmail? Is that quid pro quo? What is that? Because no money is exchanged, it`s not considered blackmail? What does the lawyer say?
SAX: Well, no, that wouldn`t be blackmail. I mean, that could be -- that would be a business dealing because that is happening on a phone call that happens within the regular course of business and it`s not being done to -- not make -- to ensure that private information is not out in the public. We need to look at what the information and the subject of what was being extortable. It was not in the course of business.
BEHAR: I see.
SALIE: And there`s not the threat that your whole world will collapse around you, which is what Halderman said. I mean, I know Hollywood players, you guys have been in pitch meetings and they usually involve like bottled water and parking validations and not...
BEHAR: Ok.
SALIE: ... the threat that buy this or the whole world will collapse around you. That doesn`t work. I`ve tried to get engaged in that way and it doesn`t...
JILLETTE: It feels that way.
BEHAR: Do you think that there was -- somebody said why didn`t he just give them the money and shut up and it would have gone away.
SAX: Well, I`m sure that`s probably happened to many, many celebrities before and good for David Letterman for coming out in order to make these things stop. I`m sure a lot of people have paid these people off.
BEHAR: The defendant`s lawyer said Letterman`s celebrity is why we`re here today, in court. What do you think of that? Because I mean, if Joe Schmo has an affair with Mary Bakery, who cares right? But he`s a big star and so that`s why we`re here.
JILLETTE: I didn`t even know about a Schmo and...
BEHAR: Oh, it was a torrid -- it was a torrid affair, oh, they were hot.
SAX: I don`t know, I think actually Letterman`s celebrity is to his disadvantage in this case because people are looking at him as to whether he made a good choice of having sex with someone, one of his colleague. And now he`s being criticized, so I don`t know that his celebrity is helping him in this matter.
JILLETTE: Well, I hope it is the celebrity is what`s horrible about it. I mean you wouldn`t have that much power without the celebrity. I mean he`s being punished for being very, very famous and successful.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALIE: I think the lesson to be learned is to date age- appropriate women for both of those men.
BEHAR: That isn`t going to happen...
SALIE: Because a woman in her 50s would never journal about work.
BEHAR: And that`s not going to happen, you`re going to have to get into reality, my dear...
SALIE: All right, I`m sorry.
BEAHR: Because that will never happen.
Shall we have -- do another story? I don`t think we have time.
So we`re going to take a break and then we`ll be back with whatever, I don`t know. It`s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Fights breaking out at soccer games is nothing new. In fact it`s a European tradition. But that fight was between Rhode Island high school girls. Here with me now to discuss that and much more is tennis superstar and author of "On the Line", Serena Williams. Welcome to the show, Serena.
SERENA WILLIAMS, TENNIS PLAYER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Do you think there`s a double standard in sports or are female athletes getting more aggressive? These are kids.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I just saw that. I don`t know, I just think that people are -- I don`t know, that footage there was just insane.
BEHAR: But you are now ranked number one in the world.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: You won Wimbledon this year.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I did. That was really exciting to have a chance to win that. I played my sister, Venus, in the final and we also won the doubles there, so that was good for us both.
BEHAR: It must be very hard, the pressure to stay on top like that. Does it get to you?
WILLIAMS: Like I write about in my book, I never put pressure on myself. Like I say, my dad always told me something that I love to live by is the only pressure you have is the pressure you put on yourself. And so I try not to let other people put pressure on me and just -- the pressure that I have is the pressure that I put on myself so I try not to do too much.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. I think other people can make you feel pressured too.
WILLIAMS: They can. That`s why I just try to just have my own personal goals and not think about what other people might say or may want me to do. I just try to do what I can do best.
BEHAR: Well, we all have meltdowns, every one of us. You recently had an incident of your own, you know about it, at this year`s U.S. Open on CBS Sports. Let`s take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: I swear to God, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`m going to take this ball and shove it down your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) throat.
I swear to God (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you`re a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) clown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. You know when I guy starts yelling on the courts, they get commercials. John McEnroe has a great commercial running for a car company now, have you seen it?
WILLIAMS: No, I haven`t seen it at all.
BEHAR: He was a hothead in his day.
WILLIAMS: He was.
BEHAR: Big-time and he has commercials now. The commercial is rather funny now, but they basically capitalize on his temper.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I have seen those commercials, yes. You know, it`s interesting how that happens and how that is, but like I said, I don`t think there was any reason for that. I definitely don`t justify what I did. I`ve said that I don`t think what I did was right.
But like I say in the book, I talk about a lot of things that I did in my life that wasn`t right and the mistakes that I may or may not have made.
BEHAR: It was a very honest book.
WILLIAMS: Yes. And things that I`ve learned from and things like that. So I think it`s good to do things and to learn from them and to make sure that you do learn from them and not do the same thing in the future.
BEHAR: Well, your anger got the best of you in that particular incident. You were fined $10,000 for it, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes, a hefty fine.
BEHAR: Have you found a way to deal now with that kind of like outburst that might come up again.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know what, I`m a really passionate person. I love to play tennis and I`m passionate about my job and I`m passionate about what I do. I am very animated out on the court. I grunt, I scream, I yell "come on," I do it all. But there are other ways obviously of expressing anger or disappointment.
BEHAR: Yes. Maybe if you had to do it over that day you might not be so enraged.
WILLIAMS: I don`t think -- of course if you could do it over. The whole world would be a different place. But unfortunately there are no do- overs and I don`t even think like that.
BEHAR: What was it that ticked you off that day so much? What was it that the umpire or what the ref said. What to you call them in tennis?
WILLIAMS: No, she was the line judge.
BEHAR: The line judge. Umpire, referee, I`m really a sports moron.
WILLIAMS: No, it was just a heated moment. I relate it to like a car accident sometimes. If you get in an accident and hit something or someone or someone hits you, you get out and naturally you`re shocked and you`re angry. You know, but then, you know, you just deal with it and you move on.
BEHAR: Did she want to hit you back?
WILLIAMS: I don`t know, I didn`t ask her.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about your family. Now, your dad trained you and your sisters.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: On public courts.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: When you were kids, right?
WILLIAMS: Right. In Compton, California; so it was in the middle of the ghetto. But -- you know it was good for me. I got to see a different lifestyle and I got to learn from that. I think it made me the person that I am today.
BEHAR: Was he like a stage father, you know, where he pushes the girls to perform?
WILLIAMS: No. Like I say in the book, my dad was really -- he obviously had goals for us and dreams for us which allowed me to be the player and the person I am today. But my dad is such a wonderful easy- going guy. I always call him a pushover because I can pretty much get anything I want from him.
BEHAR: Really, he`s a pussy cat? But I was reading that you felt that there was a certain sense of entitlement in tennis in those days. Did you feel there was racism involved in the fact that most tennis was white people?
WILLIAMS: Well, the facts are definitely, especially when I first came out, there was predominantly white people that did play tennis. You know, I definitely -- it was different. Before I said there was a handful of black people that did great, obviously. You have Arthur Ashe, Althea Gibson and you have others like Zina Garrison who definitely led the charge and opened different doors for myself and my sister.
And, you know, when we came along the line, I don`t think people were winning grand slams as consistently as we were and kind of bringing a whole change to the game. But Venus and I, we embraced that and we like to be role models for different girls and we enjoy every second of it.
BEHAR: Well, it`s changed, I think, the sport and you girls have really pushed it ahead. Your older sister -- I read that this is a sad story -- your oldest sister, Yetunde -- is that how you say here name?
WILLIAMS: Yes, Yetunde.
BEHAR: She was murdered in 2003 in -- a sniper shot her. They were after her boyfriend and shot her instead? That must have been rough on you.
WILLIAMS: It was rough on the whole family. Yetunde and I were really close. That was a picture of us at the ESPY awards. She was always my date to the awards show because she was always so fun. We were always really, really close. I just love my sister. And through faith I hope to see her again one day.
BEHAR: Some day.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: That must have brought you and your sister, Venus, closer, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I think it brought our whole family closer. We just really -- there`s five of us total and we really all appreciate each other. We`re all sisters and we all love each other. Venus and I, we`re just all so close, we always try to talk.
BEHAR: How hard is it for you to compete with Venus then?
WILLIAMS: It`s difficult.
BEHAR: Does it hurt your feelings or hers when the other one wins?
WILLIAMS: You know what, it`s difficult, it`s not easy, but we do it. This is what we knew that we wanted to do and this was our dream and to have an opportunity to even be on this level and play someone like such a great champion like Venus is my honor, really. I wouldn`t have it any other way.
BEHAR: That`s an interesting way to think about it, that she`s such a great champion and so are you.
WILLIAMS: She is, she is.
BEHAR: Somebody wrote an e-mail to you that said -- this is from somebody named Debbie. "When you`re competing for a title against your sister, don`t you really want to smack her if she wins? And then she wrote, "lol", laugh out loud, she`s teasing you. But do you ever feel like I`m going to smack her if she wins?
WILLIAMS: Well, I did. You know what? I`ve got to be honest. I get really upset if she hits incredible shots, which she does all the time. She hits every ball back. So it`s really difficult playing with her. And then I look over and I`m just like, oh, and then I just try harder.
She lifts my game and I lift her game and, therefore, I think we lift everyone else`s game.
BEHAR: Does she get mad like you did that time? Does she have a meltdown?
WILLIAMS: Venus is really, really calm. We`re totally different. I`m really outgoing and passionate and Venus is more soft but just as passionate and just as into everything as I am.
BEHAR: Different temperaments.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: More with Serena Williams when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I am back with the current number one ranked tennis player in the world, Serena Williams.
Serena, you have a lot of comments in your book about your size and you hate your thighs and all this other stuff; body image feelings about yourself. And yet you looked gorgeous on the cover of ESPN magazine naked. Look at that.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I thought that was a great cover. I`ve really been working on just being positive. I felt people should know that even though people look at my body and say, "Wow, she has a great body, she`s so perfect," that everyone has moments where they don`t think they`re perfect. Everyone has moments where they look in the mirror and like, "Wow, I don`t feel great today". I call it LSE (ph) moment.
And everyone kind of has that and I thought it was important for people to know even someone like me has those moments. And it`s OK to realize that but still love who you are and just be happy with what you are so blessed to have.
BEHAR: Did you like the picture?
WILLIAMS: I love the picture. It`s actually one of my favorite pictures. I love it.
BEHAR: Did your father like it? Was he like oh, "Serena, what are you doing?"
WILLIAMS: I think so. I never really asked.
BEHAR: I mean, you were covered up really. You were covered up, but it`s a suggestive shot.
WILLIAMS: It is, it is a little suggestive.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s going to come back to bite you in the butt?
WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I think it was so well done. I worked with a great photographer and ESPN did such a great job with it so I was happy.
BEHAR: They did.
You`re also the co-founder of Mission Skin Care and the other founders are athletes as well.
WILLIAMS: Other athletes such as Mia Hamm, myself, we and Sergio Garcia, just to name a few. We decided to come up with a skin care line that is created by us, tested by us and sold for everyone else to enjoy and actually have a really, really good product.
And so it`s coming out in CVS pharmacy this week so it`s in several CVS`s around the USA. And we`re really excited about that because it`s such a good product. I mean I`m in Australia with great heat and I have great skin care line that can do with the sun and stuff like that.
BEHAR: So it`s for athletes? It`s for everybody.
WILLIAMS: It`s not for athletes, it`s for everyone. Everyone has an active lifestyle. Like if you just go outside, I think it`s really important, especially now with the ozone layer and all that stuff, to protect your skin.
But it`s not only that. We have moisturizers, we have cleansers, we have facials, we have all kinds of stuff like that that can protect your skin.
BEHAR: So I can wear even when I`m just watching tennis.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. I would actually encourage you to wear it, especially if you`re just watching.
BEHAR: Here`s a couple more questions from Facebook and Twitter.
WILLIAMS: OK.
BEHAR: Because people are interested to talk to you. What do you think about Andre Agassi`s honest admission about crystal meth and his fake hair? He`s out there with this.
WILLIAMS: I might have been more shocked about the fake hair.
BEHAR: You didn`t know that was a toupee?
WILLIAMS: No, I didn`t. Did you?
BEHAR: Well, it looks like a little nestish. This one they`re not showing him with a wig. That was a lot of hair on his head.
WILLIAMS: It was. I guess I was too young to realize back then what he was wearing. Obviously the drug allegations were -- I thought it was a shame because he`s such a good athlete and I don`t think that one moment in history can define his career because he`s done so much for tennis, with tennis.
BEHAR: I`ve heard of steroids and athletes but crystal meth sounds like it would speed you up too much. That ball would go flying God knows where.
WILLIAMS: Well, I don`t think he won very much around that time.
BEHAR: He didn`t.
WILLIAMS: I don`t know how much it enhanced his performance, if any at all.
BEHAR: The last question from Twitter is what type of guys are you attracted to?
WILLIAMS: Yes, that`s a good question.
BEHAR: That`s from a woman. Hello.
WILLIAMS: You know what? I am attracted to guys with a great body. I love bodies. It`s all about the body to me, which is really shallow in a way, right?
BEHAR: It`s a little shallow. It doesn`t last. The body goes, I hate to warn you.
WILLIAMS: I`ve got to start thinking like that, but unfortunately...
BEHAR: I think the height might be a factor.
WILLIAMS: I`m due in my shallow moment in my life.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you very much, Serena, for coming on.
WILLIAMS: Thank you so much. Thank you.
BEHAR: We`ll be back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Earlier this week I sat down with the queen of southern cuisine, Paula Deen, and her husband, Michael Groover. We had so much to talk about we couldn`t cram it all into one show. Paula used to be agoraphobic so I asked if she couldn`t leave the house, how she would do her grocery shopping.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL DEEN, QUEEN OF SOUTHERN CUISINE: I would have to wait until my husband got home. I just felt like I had to get out. I was panicking. It`s like I was suffocating. But I`m what I call a functioning agoraphobic. And y`all, people are so unfamiliar with an agoraphobic, but let me tell you, you are not going to meet an agoraphobic. They are home. They are home. They are home where they`re safe.
BEHAR: It`s all on the telephone.
DEEN: Yes.
BEHAR: I guess you were on the phone a lot.
DEEN: I did. I talked on the phone a lot.
BEHAR: What would happen to you if you went out in the air? You`d get a panic attack?
DEEN: I could, I could. You know, just thinking, thinking. So many people, Joy, are surprised because as well as they thought they knew me, they didn`t realize all these thoughts that were going on in my head, the panicked feeling, the brown bag that I kept in my purse so I could run into a corner and breathe in it to quit hyperventilating.
BEHAR: Had you considered medication? They have medication for things like that.
DEEN: Yes, but I wanted to get to the root of my problem.
BEHAR: I see. But you spent 20 years suffering like that.
DEEN: Well, see I made D`s and F`s in high school, well, grammar school I made C`s. I`m not the brightest bulb in the socket and I taught myself. So it took me 20 years.
BEHAR: So you`re a self --
DEEN: But once I get it, honey, I got it.
BEHAR: Yes, I know you do. And then this brown bag thing, I want to hear a little more about that. So you figured out that you need to make some money.
DEEN: Yes.
BEHAR: The hubby was not bringing in the bread?
DEEN: No, I was 40 years old, you know, when I realized I still had some life left in me. And I wanted to make some changes. And in order for me to make some changes, I had to come up with a living for me and my children. I had to take responsibility for myself. I went from my father`s home to my husband`s home.
BEHAR: We all did that in those days.
DEEN: So many women out there are like you and I, our age range, no job experience, no husband because he`s got the 25-year-old cute little trophy on his arm. And here we are trying to figure out --
BEHAR: Michael, you feel like you have a trophy on your arm, don`t you?
MICHAEL GROOVER, HUSBAND OF PAUL DEEN: I do. I really do.
BEHAR: You do. I mean she`s a strong person. And look at where she`s come. It`s an incredible story when you think about it.
DEEN: And I scare people. My strength scares people sometimes.
BEHAR: Yes. Maybe it`s the bacon that you put in everything that`s scaring everybody.
DEEN: But, you know, I had -- I was the most surprised of all, Joy, because I thought I was very weak.
BEHAR: Didn`t anybody try to help you at all? Did you go to a clergyman or something?
DEEN: I did go to a pastor one time and I went and cried my eyes out to him. At the end of the hour he looked at me and he said you are a spoiled brat.
BEHAR: Really.
DEEN: I said I beg your pardon? I`m a what? He said you`ve a spoiled brat. I said well, you know where you can go. You can go straight to hell and I will never see you again.
BEHAR: Well, that was a very invigorating moment for you.
DEEN: He was a Baptist psychologist. I shared my heartbreak over my parents.
BEHAR: He had no sympathy for the fact that your parents died when you were so young.
DEEN: No, no. He said I was a spoiled brat.
BEHAR: That you couldn`t leave the house, that you had panic attacks and that you were raising your kids, nothing.
DEEN: Said I was a spoiled brat.
BEHAR: Isn`t that lovely? Is he dead? I hope he`s dead.
DEEN: I don`t know. But we were sitting there in the church house and I told him to kiss my big fat one and to go to hell.
BEHAR: Well, see, even though you were scared and afraid to go out, you had guts.
DEEN: Oh, I`ve always --
BEHAR: You had a mouth on you, I think.
DEEN: Yes, I`ve always had a mouth. Got me in trouble.
BEHAR: It was just a question of when you were going to find an audience, so you found one.
DEEN: When I was going to realize my own strength.
BEHAR: And at what point in your success period did you come to the conclusion that you really are okay now? Do you feel okay now?
DEEN: Yes, I do, I feel great. God has blessed me unbelievably.
BEHAR: And you`re happily married, I see.
DEEN: I`m happily married, at least 30% of the time. I`m kidding. I`m kidding.
BEHAR: And you`re also very philanthropic. You`re in some kind of organization; feed the hungry coast to coast tour. What is that?
DEEN: I`ll partners with Smithville, finest meat products in the world, and they have joined up with the UFCW, and we have made a commitment --
BEHAR: UFCW.
DEEN: Uh-huh. United food closet workers, I guess.
BEHAR: Something like that.
DEEN: Yes. And we have made a commitment that we are -- together we are going to feed 20 million people in the next three years. And today we had the pleasure of going to the food bank in the Bronx and we dropped 250,000 pounds of protein.
BEHAR: Where did you drop it?
DEEN: At the food bank in the Bronx. We just flew over and started throwing the hams out and whoever caught one. No. But it`s protein that the food banks are so in need of. You know, they get lots of pasta and dried things, but it - it was the largest donation --
BEHAR: That`s wonderful.
DEEN: Yes. So we`ve made a commitment. We`re going to feed people from the east coast to the west coast. And I so thank you for allowing me to --
BEHAR: And you have a talk show coming up too.
DEEN: Well, I don`t know. I shot a pilot. I shot a pilot for one.
BEHAR: Isn`t that against the law? Sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
DEEN: Isn`t she the funniest thing you`ve ever seen?
GROOVER: Hope it`s not a doctor pilot.
DEEN: Could be a doctor pilot. I have a sinus infection and when I laugh, I just kind of holler.
BEHAR: It`s not swine flu, is it?
DEEN: Listen -- no, it`s not. No, it would be H1N1, but I don`t have that either, just a sinus. So anyway Michael told me one day, he said, you know, I was happily married for such and such 20 years and he seemed like - - it seemed like 20 minutes. I said really? He said yeah, underwater.
BEHAR: You guys are great together.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: Be sure to check out the charity Paula is involved with called feeding the hungry. Her husband`s book is "My Delicious Life with Paula Deen."
Up next, Sarah Palin makes a claim so ridiculous that even FOX news had to call her out on it. Don`t go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Miss Sarah Palin is back in the news and this time FOX news is taking her on. With me to get to the bottom of why are magician Penn Jillette and Roy Sekoff, founding editor of "the Huffington Post." OK let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
Palin said she had been talking to a friend about how the phrase "In God We Trust" had been moved to the edge and not on either guide. Who calls a shot like that? Who makes a decision like that? It is a disturbing trend. Politico writes unsaid but implied was that the new Democratic White House was behind such a move to secularize the nation`s currency. In actuality the coin`s design was commissioned in 2005 when republicans controlled Congress and then was approved by then President Bush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Actually bush Okayed it but only because he couldn`t say the word secularized.
ROY SEKOFF, FOUNDER OF HUFFINGTON POST: Right that`s wrong with the coins?
BEHAR: Are you surprised that they did this?
PENN JILLETTE, MAGICIAN/LIBERTARIAN: I think they have to if she`s saying crazy things. I mean it`s -- it didn`t even have it on the coins, until the mid-50s.
BEHAR: Where does she come up with this stuff?
JILLETTE: That`s one of the things you can find on Snipes. I was just going to say if it were up to me I`d move it of the coin, I`m on the other side of the coin.
SEKOFF: She has never let the facts get in a good raging paranoia. You know, she`s very good on that. But you`re right about that, foreign policy is the same thing. She gets it on the internet so maybe we`ll pay off the debt by the Nigerian money that`s in the bank somewhere. I`m getting all those e-mails lately.
BEHAR: Women who can`t fact check something like that wants to run for president, she has some nerve.
SEKOFF: Well listen, this is where it gets scary. I mean, it`s not that she`s just not looking at Snopes which would tell her the truth, but she`s basing it all on that.
BEHAR: Exactly.
JILLETTE: I don`t know how it gets that far. How she gets to say -- doesn`t anyone on her staff know that? I`m always surprised when someone is wrong on something.
BEHAR: What staff? She doesn`t have a staff at all.
SEKOFF: Levi Johnston was too busy posing for play girl to say, Sarah; it`s not on the coin. See that was the problem.
JILLETTE: Well that`s kind of cool. She has no staff, she`s just going off half caulked, and I`m all of a sudden on her side. Crazy people speaking in public I`m always in favor.
BEHAR: I don`t know if she has a staff. I do know when she was with McCain she was not very much liked so maybe they were sticking it to her. But anyway, it`s similar. What about the Obama part, implying that he`s not religious enough. That`s a low blow, I think.
JILLETTE: But he is religious. As a matter of fact, his references to churches and where he is, he`s very, very religious.
SEKOFF: Do you think it was the religious thing? I think it was just the general, you know, government conspiracy kind of thing. Who would do a thing like that? The Democrats, the Socialists.
BEHAR: No it has god in it. Once god is in it, you know they`re trying to get a little dig at the religious part.
JILLETTE: God was not accidental.
SEKOFF: No, that is true.
BEHAR: Do you think that she cares if this is false? Does she even give a damn, that FOX is saying she`s full of it also?
SEKOFF: I think the scary thing is she thought it was the truth. They say her friend told her and so she took it.
JILLETTE: You`re right, she did give her source. She did give her source.
(CROSSTALK)
SEKOFF: That was good.
JILLETTE: A friend told me. She gave her source. We just ignored that entirely.
SEKOFF: If you clicked on that link on the internet, you would have gone to it and seen her friend saying yes, I saw it somewhere, it`s true.
BEHAR: OK let`s do another subject. Speaking of "In God We Trust," the other day on Capitol Hill, Representatives from the Catholic Church were seen meeting with Nancy Pelosi, which led to the Stupak amendment, that`s being added to the health care bill banning federal funding for abortion. Whatever happened to separation of Church and State? Why are these bishops involved with Nancy Pelosi?
JILLETTE: I`m an atheist and hard core atheist. But -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you mean a hard core?
JILLETTE: Hard core.
SEKOFF: There`s no doubting, he has no doubt.
JILLETTE: I don`t believe other people believe in God.
(LAUGHTER)
JILLETTE: That`s how hard core. But I`m totally with the Catholics on this. They should not have to pay for things they are morally opposed to. It`s a very important issue.
BEHAR: You know what, Penn, you want to stick your two cents into government, and then pay taxes. That`s my point.
JILLETTE: You talking about tax the churches? I`m with you.
BEHAR: Tax the churches. If they want to get involved in politics, they should be paying taxes.
SEKOFF: Listen I don`t think -- I don`t know how I`m suddenly in this position to defending the people of faith, but I think if you`re a person of faith, you should have a voice in the public square. It`s not that. So the separation of Church and State doesn`t mean you`re not allowed to express yourself. The question is it`s been so perverted. This is what you`re saying, Penn. There is 10% of the people in America identify themselves as atheists. One member of Congress. Do the math, one member of Congress. You can`t get elected unless you`re wearing religiosity on your sleeve.
BEHAR: The majority in this country is pro choice and yet the House of Representatives is pro life.
SEKOFF: Well the scary thing about this amendment that Stupak amendment that you`re talking about, the law already is that there is no federal funding for abortions. They`re trying to take it beyond that and give women no choice in what kind of insurance they can buy. So they`re trying to take it well beyond -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can`t even buy insurance for an abortion now unless you have to put it as a rider. We`ve been learning this all this week. You have to buy it as a rider, which is ridiculous, because you can`t predict you`re going to have an abortion. You don`t know if you`re going to get pregnant.
JILLETTE: Well, there are signals to how to get pregnant. I mean there`s been some math on there, isn`t there?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why this the Bishops worry about other things, caring about the poor bingo games. Why are they involved in this?
SEKOFF: This is the key. In Matthew, it says that we`re judged by the least among us. If we`re not taking care of the 46 million people who don`t have health insurance, wouldn`t you say they`re the least among us? So they`re trying to stop health care reform. It`s a perversion of what the bible says. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, right, he said don`t parade your piety.
BEHAR: OK while the Catholics were working overtime on the health care bill, Mormons were surprising everyone by supporting a gay rights ordinance. OK. Do you know about this?
SEKOFF: Oh, yes. In Salt Lake City.
BEHAR: The Mormons are stepping up to the plate on, you know, rights. They can -- gays shouldn`t be discriminated in housing, et cetera. So fine.
SEKOFF: But this has been the policy of the Mormon Church for quite a while. I think they`re coming forward with it because they got such heat about Prop 8 in California.
BEHAR: Do you think they really care?
SEKOFF: They do. It`s getting economic. There`s a big economic boycott --
BEHAR: Maybe they want Romney would run also and that would look bad for him.
SEKOFF: He`s got the secret underwear on.
JILLETTE: There is magic underwear.
BEHAR: It`s all about marriage. It`s like the word "marriage." why they are so obsessed about the word "marriage." these people who are against gay marriages. What is this?
JILLETTE: Couldn`t we just get the government out of marriage entirely and have it be a personal and church thing? Why is there straight marriage? Why is the government involved in any of that? Shouldn`t that just be a personal thing, who you`ve decided to spend your life with?
BEHAR: Well, you know, a lot of gays have civil unions now. That seems to be coming along nicely. But marriage involves more benefits when you`re married.
SEKOFF: It`s actually more -
BEHAR: People want to be married, it`s not just religious.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: But there are a lot of penalties for not being married.
BEHAR: I don`t know any.
JILLETTE: My wife and I got married because you can`t be sure, absolutely, were something to happen to my wife I would get custody of the children without marriage. It`s really, really important. I would like to see those scaled back the marriage restraints and just do civil unions for everyone.
SEKOFF: The sad thing about the Mormon Church is, though, they say that they will allow members to be gay but they can`t have sex, they have to be celibate. We know how well that worked out for catholic priests. Very good, not so good for the choir boys, though, not so good.
BEHAR: But the thing about it, you`re okay to be gay but you can`t have sex.
SEKOFF: That`s right.
BEHAR: So that`s just like what -- what does it mean?
SEKOFF: That`s like going to Disneyland but you can`t go on e ticket the rides. Just get the food.
JILLETTE: Did you say e ticket ride?
SEKOFF: I`m old.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Do you think that they`re fair to gay people in general, the Mormons?
SEKOFF: Of course not.
BEHAR: How about other religious institutions?
SEKOFF: In general.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: No. I think it`s obviously been a big problem and that`s the problem with having religion so front and center in such a dominant part of American politics. And as you say, they are obsessing about marriage and they are obsessing about abortion but not much talk about poverty. Not much talk about the poor. And if you took out all the mentions of poverty and poor from the bible, very thin book.
BEHAR: But you have to say that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church may have its issues, but the foot soldiers in the Catholic Church do a lot for poor people and for Aids victims. They do. I want to give them credit because I`m always on the case of the hierarchy because of the pedophilia scandal but there are so many priests and nuns who actually do their job. I just want to say that.
JILLETTE: That`s because they`re people. Most people are good; most people do well for other people.
BEHAR: It`s institutions we don`t like.
JILLETTE: When you give priests credit for doing well, you`re ignoring the people who are doing wonderful things that don`t happen to be priests. They`re not doing it because they`re Catholics; they`re doing it because they`re people.
BEHAR: Right.
JILLETTE: And the overwhelming majority of people are good.
SEKOFF: But I think we don`t want to undercut the fact that people of faith have had a major history of doing good things, whether it`s Martin Luther King or the Varian Brothers. Or what the Catholic Church did down in Nicaragua or El Salvador. So I don`t want to say all people of faith are getting involved in politics in a negative way.
BEHAR: You`re being so positive; you`re going to turn him against atheism.
SEKOFF: I`m trying because it`s so hardcore - you know, just bring him in a little bit.
JILLETTE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BEHAR: OK Roy, Penn thank you very much for joining me today. You can catch Penn in his ongoing Chem. and Teller Show at the Rio Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. Up next I`m joined by a gay activist, ex-Mormon, and Oscar winner. That`s a triple whammy. You will want to stay for that. Oh, yes.
JILLETTE: Why is she pointing at me?
BEHAR: I`m not pointing at you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Here are three things you usually don`t hear in one introduction. Gay, ex-Mormon and Oscar winner. Dustin Lance Black, guy activist and Oscar winning writer of the movie Milk joins me now. He also grew up in a Mormon household. Hi Lance.
DUSTIN LANCE BLACK, GAY ACTIVIST, AND OSCAR WINNING WRITER: Hi.
BEHAR: And also you wrote the first three seasons of Big Love.
BLACK: I did. I was one of the writers on that.
BEHAR: Well you know all about Mormonism then.
BLACK: I do. I know a lot about it. I grew up in it.
BEHAR: And you are not in it anymore.
BLACK: No, I`m not. Most of my family is still active; half of my family is still active. And I still love them. Once you are in that family, you`re in it forever. That is the great thing about the Mormon Churches.
BEHAR: But you call yourself an ex -- Mormon.
BLACK: Yes, I do.
BEHAR: You`re not a Mormon forever like an alcoholic is an alcoholic.
BLACK: No, no, no. You know I ended up - I don`t go to services anymore and there are a lot of reasons for that. I mean, the gay thing is a big one.
BEHAR: Are you surprised about the Mormon churches support some guy rights now?
BLACK: I am. I got to be honest, I`m thrilled. I am. I think to a lot of people, it seems like a little thing because it`s not full acceptance, clearly. It`s sort of a step towards tolerance. It`s just about no nondiscrimination. But if you are in that church and know that church, you can see it`s a signal to the entire population saying it`s not okay to discriminate anymore, which is such a huge change.
BEHAR: So you think it`s coming out of the goodness of the heart are they interested in putting Mitt Romney in the White House?
BLACK: I think it is that. I think it`s -
BEHAR: The second?
BLACK: I think it is a little bit of both. I think there is something political going on. I think that they do want to see more Mormon people in positions of power in Washington D.C. they already have some very important people, Harry Reid in power in Washington D.C.
BEHAR: Oh that`s right. Glenn Beck is a Mormon also.
BLACK: Glenn Beck is a Mormon.
BEHAR: Take that with a grain of salt.
BLACK: But I think I want to see more, exactly. And so I think that they --
BEHAR: And what about Prop 8? They were the ones who were blamed for Prop 8.
BLACK: That`s when they moved to the Right. They moved so far to the Right. I think they are being seen as an extremist now. And I think that they have a real fear of being seen as an extremist. Their history in that church is being seen as an extremist. They are chased across his country. They had to land in Salt Lake City. I think they are now being seen as that again and politically that`s devastating.
BEHAR: Well remember what during the primaries, I mean Romney was saying from a religion that was extremist. That was not good for them. They are trying to redo it.
BLACK: That`s what they have been going through since the `70s. When I was born you could not be a full member if you were black. You know you could not receive the priesthood. And so they`ve -- since the `70s try to change, trying to come more mainstream, they don`t want to be seen to the far extreme Right. And I think this is the new step in that direction.
BEHAR: I don`t think people most Americans really understand. We hear things like magic underwear. What exactly is that?
BLACK: My mom had them. I saw them. I tried them on a couple times.
BEHAR: Oh did you? Was it magical for you?
BLACK: It didn`t do much for me I got to say it. It didn`t do much for me. But to them it`s very sacred --
BEHAR: How did they respond to you when they put on your mother`s underwear?
BLACK: I got caught by my stepdad. Not well.
BEHAR: Did you get hit?
BLACK: No I didn`t get hit. No.
BEHAR: What did he say to you?
BLACK: Nothing. It was never discussed again. It was never discussed again. Like everything is sort of pushed under the rug.
BEHAR: Do you have advice for gay kids growing up in Mormon households before we go?
BLACK: You know what I think that is so important. Listen, when I was a little kid in the Mormon Church, I heard the president of the church, though beam him to every church, he said next to the sin of murder comes the sin of homosexuality. That was so devastating because I already knew I was guy at the age of eight.
BEHAR: What do you see to these kids?
BLACK: I say listen to your church now, and your church now is starting to signal that it is not OK to discriminate, that there is something about you that is valuable.
BEHAR: So you stop watching Project Run Way in front of your parents.
BLACK: Yes, no, no, no keep watching it - keep watching it and let them know it`s OK.
BEHAR: OK keep watching it - ok
BLACK: Let them know it`s OK.
BEHAR: OK thank you Lance very much. And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
