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Joy Behar Page
Sarah Palin on Oprah; Letterman vs. Halderman
Aired November 12, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, first Carrie Prejean threatens to walks off Larry King and then she wants me to apologize for laughing. What`s she going to do next? Give Anderson Cooper a time out?
And the attorney for alleged extortionist press writer Joe Halderman will join me for a one on one about screenplay`s blackmail of David Letterman.
Plus, shopaholics, is it a real addiction or just a case of wanting what you can`t afford? We`ll talk about it.
All that and more starts now.
Christmas is coming and the gift that keeps on giving is back. Yes, Sarah Palin sat down with Oprah to promote her new book. That interview will air on Monday but why not unwrap this one early. Oprah released clips, listen to Oprah ask her about the infamous Katie Couric interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST OF "OPRAH": Did you think that was a single defining moment for you, that interview?
SARAH PALIN, FORMER GOP VP CANDIDATE: I did not and neither did the campaign. In fact, that is why segment two and three and four and maybe five were scheduled, the campaign said right on, good, you`re showing you`re independence, this is what America needs to see and it was a good interview.
And of course I`m thinking if you thought that was a good interview, I don`t know what a bad interview was because I knew it wasn`t a good interview.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m joined now by Mo Rocca, comedian and contributor to CBS`s "Sunday Morning" -- a great show; Sarah Bernard, contributing editor at "New York" magazine and Brian Balthazar, a comedian and journalist. Welcome to the show. So, did you see the Katie Couric interview she did?
MO ROCCA, COMEDIAN/COMMENTATOR: I did see the Katie Couric interview.
BEHAR: Did you think it was hostile of Katie.
SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: No.
ROCCA: I think they were very straight forward questions and she -- Katie did what she was supposed to do and I don`t say that just because I work at CBS. And no she was persistent and she did follow ups, I mean, it was like journalism 101. It`s sad that that`s seen as somehow extraordinary. She did a great job, but shouldn`t that be par for the course?
BEHAR: Why was it seen as extraordinary, though?
ROCCA: Because everybody is so afraid.
BEHAR: Of what?
BRIAN BALTHAZAR, COMEDIAN/JOURNALIST: She wouldn`t answer a simple like what do you read, what simple newspapers do you read? And that`s ok if it`s "Highlights for Children.
And she wasn`t and she just wouldn`t cave in and just say you know I read the New York Times and the Washington Post, it was a question that was somehow beneath her. And I think that`s what ended up biting her.
BEHAR: Are you on her side?
BERNARD: I don`t know about that. I think it was actually really interesting because people who were in the audience of the Oprah taping said that she, Sarah Palin, intimated that she might be interested in hosting a talk show.
BEHAR: A-ha.
ROCCA: Ok.
BERNARD: So I thought that was the most interesting news actually to come out of that. I mean is that what we`re going to get, that`s going to be Christmas for a long time.
BEHAR: Yes, maybe I better watch my schedule.
ROCCA: I thought that Sarah in that clip that was brilliant that we just saw because she was doing an amazing impression of Tina Fey doing an impression of Sarah Palin.
BEHAR: I know. It`s brilliant.
BERNARD: But her hair was bigger.
ROCCA: Her hair, I think her hair was pretty. I`m actually on her.
BEHAR: She`s gorgeous that`s another situation.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She`s a very pretty girl, we all know that. Ok.
BALTHAZAR: Yes.
BEHAR: Oprah also asked Palin about her pseudo son-in-law, Levi Johnston...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: So one final question about Levi, will he be invited to Thanksgiving dinner?
PALIN: You know that`s a great question and it`s lovely to think that he would ever even consider such a thing because of course, he is a part of the family. And you want to bring him in the fold and kind of under your wing. And he needs that too Oprah,
I think he needs to know that he is loved and he has the most beautiful child. And this can all work out for good, it really can. We don`t have to keep going down this road of controversy and drama all the time. We`re not really into the drama, we don`t really like that. We`re more productive, we have other things to concentrate on. And do including...
WINFREY: Does that mean yes, he is coming or no he is not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Oprah had it. But I mean, do you believe her, because you know Levi Johnston -- these are the things he has said that she said that the little baby Trig, I believe his name is.
ROCCA: Right.
BEHAR: She refers to him as my little retarded baby, which could be an affectionate way to talk about the kid. Anyway, I don`t think Sarah would like that. That she didn`t cook -- you know, so what. And she wanted to quit the governorship to make money. That was according to -- in the Vanity Fair.
ROCCA: Right.
BEHAR: But Palin`s response to that was...
ROCCA: Yes.
BEHAR: Via a spokesman "consider the source of the most recent attention getting lies". She says those who would sell their body for money, meaning Levi, reflect a desperate need for attention and are likely to say and do anything for even more attention.
Ok, why is she playing nicey-nice now? Doesn`t she really want to kill him?
BALTHAZAR: Absolutely, I mean, if he is going, he`s definitely sitting at the kids` table. I think, she`s just trying to take the high road because you have to take the high road on Oprah because she will call you out.
ROCCA: Well, his head will end up in the oven at Thanksgiving. And the thing is, Levi is not a reputable source on any of this. I have to take Sarah`s side on this...
Last night on "The Insider" they did a viewer poll like who would be the better catch, Jon Gosselin or Levi Johnston. And Jon Gosselin got 80 percent. Don`t ask why -- I was watching this but it`s true. And it`s bad.
BERNARD: I love that they`re pairing them together.
BEHAR: You know, I would not agree with that, I would definitely go with Levi.
ROCCA: Really; because he wouldn`t have to take care of eight kids.
BEHAR: Exactly, exactly and the other one`s a rageaholic. Levi just shoots his mouth off.
BERNARD: I just love the idea of that family and that, being at that Thanksgiving. And I feel like, you know, it`s better for Sarah Palin, it`s better for her to sell books right now...
BEHAR: Yes.
BERNARD: ... because let`s face it, all that she`s doing to act like that family might actually get back together.
BEHAR: She`s stopping in the major cities on her book tour, you know.
BALTHAZAR: Right.
BERNARD: That`s right.
BEHAR: She`s only going to what she calls the real America. Isn`t Brooklyn, New York, the real America? She definitely looked like that when I was there.
BALTHAZAR: And my sources tell me that she didn`t actually write it, she just put together a series of adlibs. So like "running for vice president was neat." that kind of thing.
BEHAR: Who do you think is more powerful, Palin or Oprah?
ROCCA: Well, listen, this is the non-aggression pact of 2009...
BEHAR: Yes.
ROCCA: ... these two ladies are going to redraw the map of the world.
BEHAR: Yes I know.
ROCCA: And it`s going to be terrifying, I mean, come on.
BEHAR: It`s like Magellan.
Let`s move on. Carrie Prejean has admitted to having a solo sex tape. I love that, it`s all by herself. TMZ says that`s why she dropped her lawsuit against the pageant. So Larry King asked her about the settlement last night. We`ve seen this but let`s watch it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST OF "LARRY KING LIVE": In mediation it was discussed why you were mediating?
CARRIE PREJEAN, FORMER MISS CALIFORNIA: Larry, it`s completely confidential and you`re being inappropriate.
KING: Ok.
PREJEAN: Ok, you`re being inappropriate.
KING: All right, "INAPPROPRIATE KING LIVE" continues.
PREJEAN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, she calls Larry inappropriate, isn`t it more inappropriate to make a tape of yourself masturbating and sends it to your boyfriend?
ROCCA: Yes it is.
BEHAR: I mean, the word inappropriate sticks out like when David Letterman calls it`s creepy what he did, the word is weird, isn`t it?
BERNARD: I think the what she`s...
BALTHAZAR: I think it`s like saint (ph) word...
BERNARD: I think let`s face it, though, again, she has something to sell, just like Sarah Palin...
BALTHAZAR: Yes.
BERNARD: ... we would not be talking about her. I think what she did actually was kind of brilliant in a way, if you flip it around and realized that she has got everybody...
BEHAR: Carrie Prejean and brilliant in the same sentence, that`s a stretch.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: I might be the only person who`s saying that today.
BEHAR: Yes.
BERNARD: But I think that she`s actually got everybody paying attention. If she just sat there and did a regular interview with Larry King, we would not be talking about her right now.
ROCCA: That`s so terrible for Miss North Carolina who actually won Miss USA.
BEHAR: Yes.
ROCCA: And we forget.
BALTHAZAR: I feel like she...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Exactly nobody cares about her. We`re only interested in Carrie now, it`s true.
BALTHAZAR: It seems like she went to the Kanye West School of Media Training. She, look, customarily when you say you`re going to walk off, you actually get up and walk off.
BEHAR: Yes.
BALTHAZAR: But I think the one thing she did right was if you`re going to do a sex tape, do it in your 20s because gravity and time is not coming (ph).
BEHAR: Well, she claims that she was 17 in the sex tape...
BALTHAZAR: But that`s a lie.
BEHAR: But TMZ spoke to the ex-boyfriend...
ROCCA: Yes.
BEHAR: ... who she made the tape for and listen to what he said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
EX-BOYFRIEND: There was numerous, I would say probably about 15, 20 videos that she sent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they were all explicit videos?
EX-BOYFRIEND: Yes, very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old was she, how old was she?
EX-BOYFRIEND: She was 19 when I was out there. The videos poured in all the way up to just shy of, oh, gosh, I mean, she had to have been 21.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, this wasn`t a lapse in judgment. A lapse in judgment is when you give yourself a bad haircut. She has a cottage industry of tapes.
ROCCA: Twenty-five more and she could go into syndication.
BERNARD: We should explain why it`s important that she was 20 and not 17. Because if she were actually 17, then it would, I guess, illegal probably for people to trade it.
BEHAR: Can we use the l-word here? Is she lying?
BERNARD: Oh, oh which l-word?
BEHAR: No, the l-word on...
BERNARD: Right.
BEHAR: ... when you talk about people, they don`t like to say lie, they say it`s a falsehood. But is that Christian of her to lie?
ROCCA: She was bearing false witness. Is that one of the Ten Commandments, though?
BEHAR: Thou shall not attack your neighbor.
ROCCA: Right.
BEHAR: Thou shall not make sex tapes...
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: There`s a bit of coveting going on.
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: Even as (INAUDIBLE) -- either you cannot -- seriously you cannot make a sex tape and have a platform on any moral issue.
BEHAR: Well, that`s the -- there you hit on the exact reason that everybody`s turning on her. And the same with Sarah Palin, with her kids, she`s talking about abstinence and then she`s tracking her daughter around with the big belly, ok.
ROCCA: Right.
BEHAR: It`s ridiculous. So that`s the reason that people go after her. And yet the victim card, they always play the victim card on these topics, right?
BERNARD: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Yes.
BALTHAZAR: If you have an opinion and you voice it, you also open yourself up to being opposed to it and judging you for it and that`s - - she`s forgetting that, that can just can say anything she wants and then no one is going to hold her accountable for it. And then she nestles a crucifix down in her cleavage, which I think she`s making a statement here...
BEHAR: She wants to keep Jesus warm, that`s ok.
BERNARD: I think the funniest thing about that interview though, is how -- it was almost like she was having a fight or she seemed like she kept telling Larry to calm down and he was perfectly calm the whole time and wasn`t actually getting upset or anything.
And she was just saying, "Calm down. You`re being inappropriate. You`re being inappropriate," which only just made him seem more and more in control and totally.
BEHAR: Well, when she was on "The View" with me, she was very tense - - how shall I put it -- tense. She turned on me. She turned on me.
And on this show, we had a moment where somebody made a joke -- a comedian, Rich Vos, made a joke and we all laughed and she wants an apology from me because I laughed. I support the comedian, I laugh at his jokes. We stick together, babe, ok?
BERNARD: But Joy she watches your show. That`s a good sign.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, they`re out there watching, you know?
MO ROCCA, COMEDIAN/COMMENTATOR: Do you remember "Dead Man Walking"? Is she related to sister Helen...
BEHAR: That was my ex-husband.
Ok, wait a minute, Prejean keeps saying she`s being Palinized.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARRIE PREJEAN, FORMER MISS CALIFORNIA: There`s this double standard that conservative women are fair game to be attacked and it`s not right and it needs to stop.
KING: Doesn`t the conservative media tear down liberal politicians?
PREJEAN: Not to the extent that liberals do to conservative women.
KING: The conservative media commentators denounced Sonia Sotomayor as a racist. Hillary Clinton is a bitch and a liar. Laura Ingraham recently accused Nancy Pelosi of having done everything but sell her own body to get the health bill passed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was called a Larry King Smackdown. You know, he had that information right in front of him. And she thinks that this is a one-way street, "poor me and too bad about the rest of them," right?
BERNARD: Did Laura Ingraham really accuse Nancy Pelosi of whoring herself?
BEHAR: Did Larry King really just say "bitch"? I love him. He`s my hero; I`m sexually attracted to him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m getting verklempt over Larry.
BALTHAZAR: It`s very inappropriate. Very inappropriate Joy.
BEHAR: And you know today she backed out of a GOP speaking event in D.C., by the way.
BERNARD: I think that was exactly the wrong thing to do. I`m telling you she is brilliant. This is only helping her. If she had just gone there, she would have probably gotten a lot more attention.
BEHAR: But the right wing loves these air heads.
Everyone stay right there.
Quick programming note, the Donald responds to Carrie Prejean`s tantrum in an exclusive interview with "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." Make sure you stay tuned right here on HLN. "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" at 11:00.
BERNARD: That`s great.
BEHAR: When we come back, the latest in the David Letterman extortion case.
What a show this is tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The lawyer for the man who allegedly tried to extort $2 million from David Letterman says Joe Halderman wasn`t trying to blackmail David; he was just trying to sell him a screenplay.
With me now is Gerald Shargel, attorney for Robert Joe Halderman, the man accused of blackmailing the "Late Night" host. Jerald explain exactly how this screen play defense works.
GERALD SHARGEL, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT "JOE" HALDERMAN: I think it diminishes it when you call it the screen play defense. I think I can best explain it this way.
There was a time when William Randolph Hurst learned about "Citizen Kane" the movie and didn`t want it published in the worst way and he went ahead and he offered millions of dollars to see that "Citizen Kane" not be released. As we all know it was released.
Just this week, there are three cases in the news where confidentiality agreements were at the core of the issue, where someone wanted to pay to have something not published, not made public. That`s all that happened here.
Joe Halderman has certain...
BEHAR: Well, then, it`s a little suspicious though. There`s a couple of things with all due respect to you. Why would your client -- why did your client go to him at 6:00 in the morning?
I understand, it`s kind of a little bit weird, it`s very Godfatherish to show up at 6:00 a.m. with the screen play.
SHARGEL: No, it wasn`t.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARGEL: And in fact -- can I say this?
BEHAR: Yes.
SHARGEL: The fact that so many people are relying on 6:00 in the morning delivery of the package is kind of ridiculous.
First of all, it`s easily explained. They both went to work at 6:00 in the morning, number one. Number two, Joe Halderman knew David Letterman`s driver. He knew that that was the best way to get it to David Letterman. Showing up at David Letterman`s apartment at 9:00 in the morning wouldn`t have made it any better or different.
If he`d FedExed it, does that mean there was no case?
BEHAR: Ok, that`s fine. But why would he say in the letter that he sent him, "Your world is going to collapse." That sounds a little threatening to me. That`s not exactly friendly at any hour of the morning.
SHARGEL: There`s no requirement in a commercial transaction that people be friendly. There`s no requirement in a commercial transaction that people not be stern.
BEHAR: "You`re world is going to collapse" is beyond friendly, it`s threatening.
SHARGEL: It`s not threatening, it is a reality, it was a reality, number one. And number two, he had the absolute right to go to Letterman with this intellectual property and offer him the right of first refusal.
That`s all he was doing. And you know something, if you wanted the tapes or communications in later meetings, Joe Halderman made it crystal clear, he said to Jim Jackoway, who was representing David Letterman at the time -- he said to him clearly, it`s your option, you don`t have to take this. That doesn`t sound threatening to me, by the way. He wasn`t threatening at all.
His tone was not threatening. If you heard the tapes, Joy, and you will hear the tapes one day. When you hear the tapes...
BEHAR: When, when will I hear the tape?
SHARGEL: At a trial...
BEHAR: Let me ask you something. First of all, Letterman`s attorney doesn`t buy what you`re saying at all. Let`s listen to what he said on ABC`s "Good Morning America" before we continue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL HORWITZ, DAVID LETTERMAN`S ATTORNEY: Who negotiates a business transaction at 6:00 in the morning in the shadows of somebody`s apartment building? Who says your world`s about to collapse? Who threatens their personal and professional lives and who says it`s 6:00 in the morning I need an answer in two hours. Those are not the earmarks of a legitimate transaction, those are the earmarks of classic blackmail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you say to that?
SHARGEL: You want my answer?
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
SHARGEL: Here`s what I say to that. The fact that in about 20 seconds he had to mention 6:00 in the morning twice and as you mentioned 6:00 in the morning right at the outset. If that`s what the prosecution`s proof is, they`ll be laughed out of court. If that`s what they`re going to put before the jury, statements like in the dark shadows of night.
First of all, I think it was still daylight-saving time so I don`t know if it was dark. But in the dark shadows of night -- that kind of hyperbole -- he will be laughed out of court.
BEHAR: What if -- you know, the thing about you going on a little...
SHARGEL: Did we say hello yet?
BEHAR: Hi, how are you.
I`m just here to ask you some questions.
SHARGEL: Objectively.
BEHAR: I have to ask you a question though. You`re doing a lot of talk shows; doesn`t that taint the jury a little bit when you actually do go to trial? The fact that you`re on all the talk shows talking? How`re you going to get a real jury to -- what`s the word I`m looking for here? I`m not a lawyer ok, so I don`t know...
SHARGEL: To be fair and impartial?
BEHAR: There you go. To be fair and balanced; no, that`s the other station.
SHARGEL: A fair and impartial.
BEHAR: How are you going to do that when you`re all over the TV?
SHARGEL: Here`s the answer.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
SHARGEL: Here`s the answer.
First of all, when this case goes to trial, it`s not going to be for six, seven, eight, nine, ten months from now. Second of all, I have the right because the press has been all over this asking questions like you`re asking, assuming that Joe Halderman`s guilty when he`s not.
I have the right to try to balance that and even the playing field. You asked the question and I`m going to give you the answer.
BEHAR: But that must be in the court of law. That would be the perfect place to do it.
SHARGEL: But the better question is why does David Letterman have a team of lawyers tracking me around.
BEHAR: David is not on trial for committing a crime, your client is. David is not on trial.
SHARGEL: Why did he engage a criminal defense lawyer? Is he expecting trouble? What`s going on here? Why does he need a criminal defense lawyer?
BEHAR: I don`t think that David committed the crime. Your client committed the crime, that`s why you`re out there trying to defend him.
Thank you, Gerald...
SHARGEL: No, no, because ...
BEHAR: Thanks for doing this -- you`ll be on another show before you know it, thanks. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel.
We`re talking about the alleged extortion plot against David Letterman.
What did you think of what the lawyer said and what do you think is going to happen now?
ROCCA: Well, I think we`re all excited for the actual movie about this whole thing...
BEHAR: Right.
ROCCA: And the screenplay came too early. He should have waited until all of this unfolded and then write a screenplay and cast that then.
BEHAR: I think they`re ticked off because it`s not really what they call a Roman-o-play (ph), where it`s fictionalized. This is David Letterman starring in it like the late shift.
ROCCA: Right, it`s more of a bio-pic, right.
BEHAR: It`s a bio-pic.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But I want to play the pissed off wife. I really would like to play that. I could do that one, don`t you think?
ROCCA: Casting David Letterman will be tricky. I mean, they could go with David Letterman, but he was terrible in "Cabin Boy."
BEHAR: I never saw "Cabin Boy,"
ROCCA: I don`t think he`s available anyway.
BALTHAZAR: But you know, I think that Nicole Kidman is going to do amazing things with prosthetics.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: Could she play Letterman?
BEHAR: Who`s she going to play, Letterman?
BALTHAZAR: Letterman, yes. With prosthetics, anything`s possible.
BERNARD: I think maybe I would like to nominate Russell Crowe for that lawyer.
ROCCA: For Shargel.
BERNARD: Yes, what do you think?
ROCCA: I think it could work.
BERNARD: Beard? Too good-looking?
ROCCA: For Halderman, Rick Sanchez with a goatee.
BALTHAZAR: You know, Paul Giamatti -- Paul Giamatti could be...
BEHAR: Danny de Vito for Shargel.
BALTHAZAR: Paul Giamatti would be a good Halderman. He`s got the look, but the character`s a little bit more One-Eyed Willie.
BEHAR: Do you think this whole case is going to shoot Letterman`s numbers through the roof? If there`s an actual trial, it`s like O.J. We were riveted to it and then you get to see Letterman on his show. Fantastic.
BERNARD: I think this is the best thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The other guys are going beyond the ledge.
ROCCA: They`ll kill themselves.
They will be simulcasting "The Late Night" -- "The Late Show" on True TV. It will be amazing.
BALTHAZAR: He`s doing better than ever already though. I mean he`s doing great.
BEHAR: Letterman`s doing very well. But I don`t know if -- you think it`s attached to this?
BERNARD: This is the best thing that could have happened to him -- this screen play idea -- because now it just makes it seem even more silly and even more like he`s the victim.
BEHAR: Do you think that the public opinion has been unfair to Letterman?
BERNARD: In the beginning I think it was -- no, I mean, it wasn`t unfair and he was very apologetic which helped. But I think that now -- that people have had time to process it and that this has come out it`s the second wave of people feeling, oh, now I feel kind of bad for Dave.
ROCCA: Some rival networks have been unfair. I mean "The Today Show" is adding a fifth hour just to cover this and they don`t cover the blackmail angle at all.
BEHAR: That show will be on until midnight the next day.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Kathy Lee Gifford, she`ll have another show.
ROCCA: Kathy Lee Gifford Overnight.
BEHAR: She`ll have a show at like 5:00 in the afternoon.
So this guy, it`s interesting, this Shargel guy, he was -- he said he`s anxious to cross-examine Letterman. What`s that about?
ROCCA: He`s like a fan.
BEHAR: Is that what that`s about or is it he`s just another egomaniac who`s looking for another gig?
BERNARD: I think he wants a show.
BALTHAZAR: He needs a nap.
BERNARD: He needs a talk show.
ROCCA: He needs a sex tape.
BEHAR: Everybody wants a show. Carrie Prejean is going to get a show, Sarah Palin is going to get a show, and Shargel will get a show.
But I have a show. I already have a show.
ROCCA: They can have the same show and it will be like "Three`s Company." They`ll be great.
BEHAR: That would be good.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thanks very much to you guys; very nice to have you here.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Black Friday is coming and we`re all be out charging up our credit cards, but for the 25 million who are compulsive spenders, Black Friday is every day. How do you know if you`re a shopaholic, if you spend so much money on home furnishings that you actually lose the house, you have a problem. Here with me to talk about shopping addition are Terry Shulman, therapist and founder of the Shulman Center for Compulsive Theft and Spending. That`s a long title. Plus two shopaholics: Ali Owen and Angelica Boccella. And Angelica`s very distraught mother Lisa. Thank you all for being here. OK, let`s start with Terry, how do you know to the difference between a person who just likes to shop a lot, you know and, or a shopaholic, what`s the difference really.
TERRENCE SHULMAN, SHULMAN CTR FOR COMPULSIVE THEFT & SPENDING: Well like with any behavior whether it`s drinking or eating or gambling, anything in moderation is fine, but when you begin to get obsessed with the behavior, when there`s negative consequences attached that could be financial stress or debt, loss of time, arguments with family or loved ones about it. And just sometimes people literally do run out of room to put things. Then you`re talking about a behavior that is compulsive and pathological.
BEHAR: Well so -- on the one hand you`re talking about somebody who collects a lot of stuff and has the house filled with stuff. On the other hand, if a person can afford to buy stuff, why are they a shopaholic if they have the money to pay for it?
SHULMAN: Well they may still be a shopaholic. I mean you can have functional alcoholics who can get up and go to work every day and seem just fine. But for everybody it may take a different toll. A shopaholic may be well able to afford what he or she is buying and they may even have the space in their home to store it all, but again if you look at what is really driving it, you`ll often find that there is a driven kind of emotion, there`s an emptiness, or there`s a self -- esteem issue or their lives are usually out of balance, relationships might be lacking, they might be losing time and energy in other directions of their life. But it ultimately is up to that person to decide when they have enough.
BEHAR: OK, let`s move onto our other guests. Here`s a clip of Anjelica from Wii TV, Secret Lives of Women.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
ANGELICA BOCCELLA, SHOPAHOLIC: After I go shopping - like the receipts will pile up. And it`s like I have to empty it out. You have no idea how bulky it can get, this is probably for the last few months, and these are only the ones that I kept.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a lot of receipts you have there.
BOCCELLA: Yes.
BEHAR: What is it you like to buy, Angelica?
BOCCELLA: I don`t discriminate, I like to buy everything.
(CROSSTALK)
BOCCELLA: Boots.
BEHAR: Boots.
BOCCELLA: I think I said that on the show --
BEHAR: How many pairs of boots do you have?
BOCCELLA: I would have to say 35 or more.
BEHAR: 35 pairs of boots.
BOCCELLA: I`ve really never counted. But I have I lot of boots.
BEHAR: Terry, what`s up with the boots?
SHULMAN: I happened to watch that segment on women`s Entertainment TV and I think Angelica you had mentioned to the camera crew that boots seemed to give you a sense of power. And what I find is a lot of people are shopping to get power and that`s a very important thing for us all to feel, empowered. But can I ask you Angelica, how much is enough?
BEHAR: How much is enough?
SHULMAN: 35, how much would be enough?
BOCCELLA: Enough is never enough.
SHULMAN: Right.
BOCCELLA: I mean I don`t know how much is enough, I just -- I always find a reason for why enough isn`t enough or why I need more or I have to go to this party and I need a new pair, and boots, they go with everything and they`re comfortable, they`re stylish. And they do make you feel comfortable -
BEHAR: Mom -
BOCCELLA: Comfortable and powerful.
BEHAR: Why do you give her a credit card?
LISA BOCCELLA, MOTHER TO ANGELICA BOCCELLA: I honestly had given her the credit card for an emergency and she wasn`t working and I`m a real controlling mom, I just want to know that they`re safe. So I got a discover card. And they were offering a nice pattern. Like you know, and I said I`ll get one in her name and one in my son`s name.
BEHAR: What do you mean the card was holding a nice pattern?
L. BOCCELLA: Yes, yes. I think it was like a Monet painting by Jane Seymour. So you know what, I`ll get one for each of them.
BEHAR: So you were attracted to the card.
L. BOCCELLA: Yes.
BOCCELLA: Now you know where I get it from. Because she chose - -
L. BOCCELLA: So I gave them one and I said this is for gas for your car and God forbid an emergency, any emergency. That`s it, just for an emergency.
BEHAR: OK, Ali, let`s talk to you for a minute, what`s your favorite thing to buy? We know Angelica is into the boots, what about you?
ALI OWNE, SHOPAHOLIC: Really I buy clothes mostly, but I just did purchase a new house so I have been shopping for couches and wall decor and comforters and things for my dogs, I like to buy things for my family and the people that I love too.
BEHAR: We all love that. What`s wrong with that, Terry, come on?
SHULMAN: I don`t know, Ali, by the way, hello, you and I have met before.
OWEN: Hi, Terrance.
SHULMAN: I hope things are still going OK with you; you`ve been in recovery for awhile. So I`m glad to hear you bought a home.
OWEN: I have. Thank you.
SHULMAN: Can I ask you, are you finding yourself sliding back into over shopping and overspending again?
BEHAR: Hey, Terry, I`ll ask the questions. This is not a therapy session.
SHULMAN: Oh, I thought it was.
OWEN: We`ll do that later.
BEHAR: Go ahead. Give me this last one.
SHULMAN: OK, so if what you`re asking, buying a home is a wonderful accomplishment, can we afford, hopefully. And course, how we fill it up and how quickly we fill it up, everybody has individual values, but I think we do need to be careful. What we have seen individually and collectively in our society is people biting off more than they can chew and then. Actually, having to give up much of what they have worked hard to buy and filing for bankruptcy and home foreclosures. so we`re living in a new age where we have to really kind of come to grips with reality with want versus need.
BEHAR: how much in debt are you Ali?
OWEN: Right now I`m about $17,000. I was $20,000 about a year and a half ago. And I have been able to pay somewhat of it off. But --
BEHAR: I don`t know how people those credit cards off because I read somewhere they`re now up to 29% interest rates. You`ll never pay that off. You`ll have to pay them every month -
OWEN: It`s either bankruptcy, it`s either bankruptcy or never, you know, continuing to pay these bills, pay these bills and you just don`t get a break.
BEHAR: Ali, why do you think you compulsively shop like that, what is it about yourself?
OWEN: I think that I am self-conscious, clothes make me secure with the person I am. I feel better. I feel equal. To the other people in the store, I feel great when I`m able to walk out with just as many, if not more bags than the person next to me. I love hearing the total is more than the person before me. It`s definitely a lot of it is being insecure with myself.
BEHAR: And Angelica, you have your own card right? That`s what your mother said, and your bill came to over $400. That`s what I heard from my spies. So your parents are out of work and you aren`t working, who`s going to pay the $400.
BOCCELLA: Well I plan on getting a job to pay that off.
BEHAR: Job, where? How? What kind of job?
BOCCELLA: At the mall?
BEHAR: At the mall? That`s like an alcoholic going into a bar. You can`t go to the mall.
BOCCELLA: Well, now you understand my problem. I mean, my very first job was at Armani Exchange in the mall. And my entire pay check went there.
BEHAR: Oh I love her, Armani Exchange -
BOCCELLA: I actually - I actually - I actually am not a fan of Armani Exchange but I just bought the stuff because I had a discount and you had to wear the clothes for our uniforms. And you can`t just wear the same things, over and over, and over - so I spent my pay check there.
L. BOCCELLA: And I use to tell her, take your check and try to save and economize. You put some money in the savings and checking and you pay your bills. No, I`m like - where`s your check - I used it. For what? Well I have to buy clothes because they want me to look good. They want me to wear their clothing.
BEHAR: Oh no. I see it -- she`s a very pretty girl. She likes to look good, I don`t blame her. But you`ve got to get a job. I mean, is this like a female disease like diverticulitis? I mean what is this? Are men not shopaholics?
BOCCELLA: Men do it.
SHULMAN: Joy, yes, men do have this problem as well. You know almost as many men have this problem, they may buy different things. There are men who buy clothes and things like that too, but I have worked with a lot of male clients who maybe spend too much money on computers, electronic equipment, sportswear.
BEHAR: The big items. See they`re not wasting their money on little tiny earrings and things. They`re going for the big stuff.
SHULMAN: Well men can buy new cars that they can`t afford or fancy vacations, or go out to eat too much or entertainment. So men can overdo it too.
BEHAR: What`s the worst case of shopaholic that you know and do I know that person?
SHULMAN: Well I don`t know if you know that person. Certainly we heard recently about Nicholas Cage, since we`re talking about men, that was in the news recently about his multimillion dollar spending sprees, very kind of interesting behavior. But I worked with a few clients, one man in particular I have been working with ongoing for a couple of years. Who bought about 200,000 in computer equipment. He was disabled and not employed. He`s got a wife and a child with special needs and then when he got done with the computer equipment, he went on to the next hobby that cost tens of thousands of dollars. So a lot of times people are looking -
BEHAR: I want to hear about that in the next segment.
SHULMAN: Well, yes - yes -
BEHAR: Because we want to talk about
SHULMAN: Sure - sure.
BEHAR: What cause this is. Stay right there, more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
OWENS: Shopping is like definitely getting your next fix. It simulates the same kind of things that a drug would. It`s definitely a high for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Ali Owen in an MTV`s True Life. We`re back talking about shopaholics. Ali, shopping is your drug, isn`t it?
OWEN: It is.
BEHAR: How does it feel? Does it feel like you just took a drug?
OWEN: Yes, it does. Talking to people that have done drugs, it to me has the same feelings, I think about it when I`m not shopping, I get nervous about it, it takes over my entire thought, it ruins my relationships, it ruins,, it literally runs everything around me when I go shopping and I feel great, it`s a short high and then as soon as I`m done, I`m back down to the low because I realize that I didn`t have that money, I shouldn`t have spent that money. What am I going to do? How am I going to pay my bills? And I have got all these things in front of me that are a constant reminder?
BEHAR: And do you wear them?
OWNES: Some of them I do, a lot of things in my closet still have tags on them from years and years ago. I`ll sell the clothes back and I`ll take the money and go back shopping again.
BEHAR: It`s kind of like a gambling addiction in a way. It sounds a little bit like drugs and alcohol, it`s a rush that you get.
SHULMAN: Oh absolutely, it`s a lot like it for some people.
BEHAR: What do you think are the underlying reasons for a shopping addiction?
SHULMAN: Ali realizes that she`s has had some challenges of her own sense of self and insecurity and self image. So I think a lot of people are vulnerable. It`s a bottomless pit, if you don`t who you are or feel good about who you are, you can focus on your image in terms of looking good and having all the latest brands. It`s a bottomless pit that drives you until you figure out where did that lack of self-esteem and lack of self worth come from?
BEHAR: But it`s really a hard to deal with because it`s out there, there`s slogans like when the going gets tough, the tough go shopping. And one of the stores has a new advertising campaign and the shopping bags have "want it". Like come in here and spend your money, you know. It`s like drug dealers these department stores.
OWENS: They are. They are.
SHULMAN: Yes basically, yes -
OWNES: It`s a legalized drug deal, you know?
BEHAR: Uh - huh.
SHULMAN: Right. And you know, Angelica mentioned also wanting to feel powerful or feeling empowered. And we know that in her family life over the last few years. There`s been parents who have been out of work, there`s been some family illness, there`s been a lot of crisis. And it`s probably left her feeling a lot of feelings. And people can use shopping to escape to help them feel good. And sometimes because of all these arguments you have been having with your mother Lisa, in an inadvertent way we`re looking for negative attention which is better than no attention at all. I would advise maybe for both of you as mother and daughter and go somewhere for the whole day that doesn`t involve being around a store or a mall. And really try to connect with each other --
BEHAR: That`s a hard one, because mothers and daughters like to go shopping together.
SHULMAN: Well there`s got to be other way to connect with each other -
BEHAR: Pedicure, a facial.
SHULMAN: Well may be that -- some way to connect.
OWEN: Yes, go to a musical or something.
BEHAR: Is he making any sense or something?
BOCCELLA: I don`t know because part of my credit card bill this month is manicures and pedicures.
BEHAR: Never mind, a museum, how about a museum? Go see some paintings.
L. BOCCELLA: Her mail is personal and I`m not supposed to open it. And a bill came yesterday and I was dying to see if she was able to control herself. And I`m like oh, my god, it`s $466, and I`m like -- it`s like three times a manicure and a pedicure.
BOCCELLA: Once a week, a manicure.
BEHAR: How many times can you get a pedicure?
BOCELLA: Once every three weeks.
BEHAR: Yes, I do that also, but I`m not a shopaholic. But you have to have the money to pay for it. Let me explain, that`s the bottom line of this conversation darling, if you have the money, you can do it. If you don`t have the money, your mom`s not going to pay for it?
OWEN: Yes but Joy, do you sit there and think about that manicure and pedicure weeks before you get.
BEHAR: Oh yes. Yes I do. They give me what they call a spa pedicure and they rub my legs and I love it. But I can afford it.
BOCCELLA: Exactly but a lot of shopaholics they can`t afford it. And it`s not until a crisis happens, somebody in their family dies, they lose their job, their hours get cut, an illness, it`s not until something like that happens that they realize that my spending habits are out of control. What makes a shopaholic different from every other American is that it takes over our every thought, it ruins our relationships, it ruins our self-esteem and our emotions.
BEHAR: It`s an interesting dilemma. You said, the doctor I think, I don`t know, Terry said that it`s got something to do with control, that you feel out of control, like and an anorexic, very often, you`ll hear that at anorexics, are all those similar?
SHULMAN: Well yes. All addictions are similar and eating disorders in particular from what I know about them, I`m not a specialist. But a lot of times the anorexic or the bulimic will be feeling a loss of control over relationships or circumstances in his or her life and the focus on eating or bingeing and purging or calorie intake, or thinness, or whatever. It becomes an all consuming obsession. If for a moment in time, I can buy something and look perfect and project this image and feel like I`m on top of the world. But what we know is it`s fleeting and illusory. And -
BEHAR: It`s kind of like an anti-depressant in many ways.
SHULMAN: Well it is. And frankly the advertisers that`s how they want us to do it. They want us to feel like we`re buying an experience. Like we are buying a feeling. And also that we`ll be afraid that if we don`t buy this item, that we won`t be keeping up with the Jones. Or keeping our image
BEHAR: Yes there is that elements that the advertisers are enablers and the parents that are enabling their children also.
SHULMAN: And the parents too -
BEHAR: OK, what should they do, Terry? What should they do? We don`t have that much time left and I would like you to cure them now.
SHULMAN: Well OK, I don`t know about cure, but what they can do is honestly admit that have a problem, see the writing on the wall that you know, if they continue this it`s going to just get worst. They are young enough and smart enough now to really get serious help before it gets more ingrained, get some counseling, go to groups like debtors anonymous, you could go to our website shopaholicsanonymos.org, read books, medication, find friends and family who you can do things with that don`t involve going to the malls or going to the store. There`s got to be other interests that you have.
BEHAR: Well there`s problem right now because of Christmas, what are you supposed to do? You want to buy gifts for other people. Should they not buy any gifts for anybody this year?
SHULMAN: Well I wouldn`t go that far, but I think there`s a lot of ways we can be creative with our gift giving, we can give a simple gift card, and we can make a gift. We can barter, we can do favors for people without actually spending the money. I think a lot of Americans these days are going to have to scale back out of necessity. I encourage not to go to the stores very much during the holiday season, it`s a real frenzy and we have two young ladies here who have a lot of potential.
BEHAR: It`s a dilemma. Right, thank you all very much. good luck to you two, I hope it stops. And see you Ali and Terry.
SHULMAN: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: Thanks, everyone, back in a minute with Eliot Spitzer`s Manhattan Madam, talk about an addiction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Remember the disgrace New York Governor Eliot Spitzer, remember him? Guess what he`s doing? He`s giving a lecture at Harvard University`s, Ethics Center. Hello, ethics is the keyword here. With me to discuss this is Kristen Davis, not the Kristin Davis from Sex and the City, although she could if that city was Albany. She`s the madam who provided Spitzer with his escorts, and she joins me now for an exclusive interview. Welcome Kristin.
KRISTIN DAVIS: Thank you.
BEHAR: So let`s discuss this, the guy goes to Harvard and he`s giving a lecture on ethics up there. Bu the professor up there says that it`s not - ethics - he`s talking about institutional corruption. You wrote a letter objecting to all of this, tell me about it.
DAVIS: Initially I wrote a letter just addressing some very basic questions, I can`t attend the conference because I`m on probation so I can`t leave the City of New York.
BEHAR: You were going to go there?
DAVIS: I would have loved to.
BEHAR: Maybe just to hear it?
DAVIS: Maybe ask some questions, same questions I asked in the letter. No one replied to my letter so I posted it on my blog.
BEHAR: I see. Why is he doing this? Is he trying to meet women or what?
DAVIS: There`s big money in the public speaking circuit. It`s sad that he has some influence over the future ethics of any Harvard student, of any student in general. I mean they even sold out. It`s obviously an economic decision by Harvard to increase their bottom line he sold a lot of tickets. Obviously this press have been of help.
BEHAR: So you think he should not be talking about ethics? Is that you`re point?
DAVIS: I see some merit, however if we`re going to listen to this man, then why don`t we talk about the real issues?
BEHAR: Which are?
DAVIS: Corruption by a public official. Obviously we can learn something from a public official who committed and covered up his crimes and who when he lied to the same public he promised to protect.
BEHAR: And Attorney General who went around making examples out of the same escort agencies he was frequenting. So hypocrisy is his middle name.
DAVIS: Of course.
BEHAR: So that`s what you`re ticked off about.
DAVIS: Obviously we can learn something from him if we talk about the real issues, how we as an American public can question our public officials and let`s talk about how he made some mistakes and how he can rectify them and let`s not talk about Wall Street, why does he want to talk about Wall Street? Is biggest Ponzi scheme in the history of the world happened under his nose.
BEHAR: He`s a dog, but he`s a smart dog. The guy is not stupid.
DAVIS: No, no I`m sure he`s getting paid rather well for what he`s doing.
BEHAR: He doesn`t need the money either obviously. He had a very big bill at your agency.
DAVIS: Sure, sure and his father is a billionaire and he bought his way out jail.
BEHAR: How often did he use the services that you provided by the way?
DAVIS: Weekly.
BEHAR: Weekly.
DAVIS: Weekly.
BEHAR: Was he a good tipper?
DAVIS: He was actually a good tipper. That grows --
BEHAR: Why is it that the Johns never get into trouble.
DAVIS: Johns never get into trouble because in this country we promote inequality amongst the sexes so the women get in trouble and go the jail. The men, no, we, historically never prosecuted a John.
BEHAR: What do you say to people that`s the pot calling the kettle black in your case.
DAVIS: Hey, I served my time.
BEHAR: What do you do now?
DAVIS: I`m working on it`s a nonprofit to promote legalization of prostitution.
BEHAR: I love that, thanks Kristen and thank you for watching. Good night, everybody, good night, Elliott.
END
