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Illinois Prison May Replace Gitmo; Terror Trial Coming to New York City; President Obama's Trip to Asia

Aired November 14, 2009 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.

Developing right now: a story that is overshadowing the president's trip overseas tonight. Here at home, we are learning that Mr. Obama's home state of Illinois could become the new Guantanamo Bay. We're learning that tonight -- that nearly empty maximum- security prison in Thomson, Illinois, is under consideration as a possible new home for about 200 detainees at a military prison at Guantanamo Bay.

Among the Gitmo prisoners are these five men accused of key roles in the 9/11 attacks. President Obama now wants them tried in New York City in federal court.

It is a very risky move with a lot of political peril for the president. We're going to discuss that at length over the coming hour and talk to some of the victims' families. It is worth remembering that 9/11 is the reason the U.S. went to war in Afghanistan. Eight years later, 68,000 American troops appear no closer to defeating the Taliban.

CNN's Atia Abawi who has spent the past year in Kabul -- she's going to join us with her perspective tonight. She's right here live with me in Atlanta.

So, let's begin with the latest developments first about the Gitmo detainees possibly being in prison in the president's home state of Illinois.

CNN's Jessica Yellin has been following the story for us. She joins us now by telephone.

Jessica, this late -- last-minute development is coming out now. What are you hearing there?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Hi, Don. The latest is that multiple administration officials tell me that there will be a trip by senior administration officials to the facility on Monday to assess the situation and see if it would be appropriate to house some Gitmo detainees. They're not saying they would all go there, but they do say that this is a top contender as a domestic location for many of these prisoners at this time.

There are some economic advantages to the location. There are some political disadvantages. Obviously, a charged issue, but under serious consideration right now, Don.

LEMON: Yes, it is a very charged issue. I want you to stand by, Jessica, because you may want to weigh in on this.

We also have Lynn Sweet standing by. She's with "The Chicago Sun-Times." She was one of the first -- she's one of the first to report on the story and she joins us now also from Washington with the latest developments.

Lynn, I have Jessica on. She's working the story from Washington, as you are. But I'm hearing from you and your reporting that Senator Dick Durbin is on board and is going to deliver speeches on this starting this weekend?

LYNN SWEET, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF (via telephone): Well, he's going to have a press conference tomorrow with the governor of Illinois, Governor Quinn. Durbin is going to be a big booster of this plan. He thinks it makes good sense for national security reasons and for economic reasons. It's going to put a lot of money into the local economy.

Where this prison is, Don, is in a very depressed part of the state, and the people there -- the mayor of the town wants it. So, there is -- you don't want to -- it's interesting that this whole divisive debate about what to do with Guantanamo detainees now could be talked about in terms of an economic stimulus for a particular area, but there you go. You've got it.

LEMON: And so, when you have someone, you know, like Senator Dick Durbin who is a longtime senator there and you actually have other politicians there as well who are on board with this, right, Lynn?

SWEET: Well, you have a division basically around partisan lines. The Republicans have made statements today, including some who are running for office, are against it. You have Democrats who are open-minded.

LEMON: Well, that's my question here. Will this by -- and I want to get back to Jessica as well. Is this going to fly, though, with the people of Illinois?

(CROSSTALK)

YELLIN: Go ahead, Lynn.

SWEET: There's an enormous amount of, you know, residual goodwill towards the president. But when it comes to something like this, I think there's a lot of education that has to be done. Some of the statements they had just claimed out and out misinformation that people will be -- detainees will be in your neighborhood, that's nonsense.

So, this has to have a few days, I think, to flesh out.

LEMON: OK. Go ahead -- go ahead, Jessica. YELLIN: Don, let me give you a few more facts just so we have them.

This is a facility that would -- houses more than -- would house more than 1,000 prisoners. There are only some 200 odd remaining detainees. So, it would be a portion of this facility would be used for detainees if they were all to be there. And they would build their own sort of supermax facility -- the way they say it, it's more super than supermax and no one has escaped from supermax.

The problem -- one of the problems the president has bringing any of these folks to the U.S. is, obviously, Republican opponents will use this as a campaign issue, saying this is wildly dangerous. On the other hand, the president's liberal base doesn't want detainees held under any conditions unless they're going to trial. So bringing them to the U.S. does not resolve that completely for the president's base, the liberals.

As you have conservatives and Republicans -- the conservatives and liberals antagonized by this move, but it is a commitment the president made. He did say he would close Guantanamo. And the administration officials I've been in touch with feel that this is a positive step forward...

LEMON: Yes.

YELLIN: ... taking them closer to that.

LEMON: Before we move on, I'd just say -- I'm going to give one last question here to Lynn. There's a statement from Governor Pat Quinn saying that -- confirming with Jessica, saying that senior officials of the Obama administration will be visiting the Thomson Correctional Center to see if the virtually vacant state-of-the-art facility can be better utilized by the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

So, Pat Quinn -- and also, I spoke with his representative, Lynn, confirming what you're saying as well, that he's going to be making a couple of press statements tomorrow, three of them, as a matter of fact.

SWEET: Right. And these are members of a joint Justice Department and Defense Department task force that is looking at these prisons.

LEMON: But, Lynn, there's my question.

SWEET: Yes.

LEMON: My question to you is, is this the only facility -- I am told that this is one of a number of facilities...

SWEET: You're right.

LEMON: ... around the country or just in Illinois?

SWEET: Yes. No, there's a facility in Michigan. There's another one in South Carolina. There is -- I would think it's highly unlikely that all the detainees would end up in one place.

LEMON: These are ones that have been talked about before though. There are no new ones except for the -- except for Illinois here.

SWEET: Right. I mean, there's only so many vacant brigs and prisons around the country.

LEMON: Right.

SWEET: They're pretty easy to identify and the communities where these facilities exist have known about this.

LEMON: Yes.

SWEET: So, there have been rumors that this Thomson Correctional Center in Illinois was a candidate for it partly because it's a big, expensive place sitting empty right now.

LEMON: Yes. This is -- I mean, Jessica said -- you know, this is going to be my last question, but I'll let you go. I mean, the timing of this, some say, is suspect with the president overseas and then yesterday with the attorney general announcing that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the rest of the accused co-conspirators in the 9/11 attacks were going to be tried in New York. So, some people are questioning the timing of this, if this was done while the president was out of the country, if that was their preference to do it this way?

SWEET: I think...

YELLIN: Well...

(CROSSTALK)

SWEET: ... no matter what.

LEMON: Jessica?

YELLIN: I'm with Lynn. It's a way to create a new distraction so the president doesn't have to deal exclusively with this. But this is an effort by the administration to show that the Army can make progress on the Guantanamo Bay front.

LEMON: Jessica...

YELLIN: The fact that Holder came out with the news way before this was no accident.

LEMON: Jessica Yellin and Lynn Sweet, this is a developing story and it's going to get even bigger. We're going to follow it here on CNN. We appreciate your expertise on this in joining us right now.

We're going to continue on to talk about Guantanamo Bay, and specifically the alleged mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks. His name is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He's supposedly boasted of planning the attack during a military tribunal. That was back in January. But the admission also came after he had been waterboarded.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was born in Kuwait and educated in the United States. He was captured in Pakistan in 2003 after a global manhunt.

Now, along with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Waleed Bin Attash suspecting recruiting -- suspected of recruiting two of the 9/11 hijackers and a suicide bomber who attacked the USS Cole. Ramzi Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspected of helping finance the 9/11 attacks. And Mustafa Ahmad al Hawasawi, allegedly a close associate of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. And Ali Abd al-Aziz, a nephew of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was believed to have acted as a key lieutenant on 9/11.

So, depending on the outcome of the trial, bringing the suspects to New York will be judged as either one of the bravest or stupidest moves of a young president. Already, people are lining up on both sides.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I do not understand why a war criminal should be able to have the same rights as a common criminal. I think the American people will be very unhappy about this decision. They should be. And they should reverse this decision. And they should be tried in military tribunals.

JAMIE RUBI, FORMER STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: The Justice Department looked into this, and they concluded that there were some big benefits to being in New York. The mayor of New York is actually quite pleased about it. The people who actually suffered are New Yorkers. I'm a New Yorker. Eric Holder is a New Yorker.

This may turn out to be an opportunity for some people to get some of the justice they've been looking for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: For victims of 9/11, for the families of the 9/11 victims, news of the suspects will be coming to New York, well, it has reawakened a lot of raw emotions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They'll come back to the biggest stage in the world and will show -- they'll be shown -- they'll be given a fair trial, and then they'll be executed as they deserve because they don't deserve anything less.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bring it back here, for me, my feelings, it's tasteless. It's insensitive. And those scars which have never been healed are just going to be opened again. So, I am not comfortable one iota with this call.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, let's talk now with two people who endured personal losses on 9/11.

Talat Hamdani lost her son, Mohammad Salman Hamdani. And Charles Wolf lost his wife, Katherine, in the attacks. And they both join us tonight from New York.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I want to get -- Ms. Hamdani, I'm going to start with you. How do you feel...

TALAT HAMDANI, SON MOHAMMAD DIED ON 9/11: Sure.

LEMON: ... about the latest developments when you hear about the Gitmo prisoners possibly being housed in Illinois and other places here in the United States?

HAMDANI: I thank you for having me, first of all. And I feel vindicated because I've worked very hard since 9/11 happened to see justice done in my son's name. He is mentioned in the Patriot Act. And where we stand right now because of the military commissions that were instituted by the Bush administration, we stood in violation of all international laws, Geneva Conventions, the United States Constitution itself.

And if you look up the history of how everything transpired over the last six years, particularly from 2002 onwards to early this year, the Rumsfeld -- the Constitution, you know, actually stands suspended. And if you give me a moment to read to you the decision...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: If you hang on one second, because I want to get another perspective here.

HAMDANI: Sure.

LEMON: But just real quickly, are you OK with prisoners being housed in Illinois and other states in the United States?

HAMDANI: Yes, yes, definitely.

LEMON: OK. And are you -- how do you...

HAMDANI: Maximum security prisons, and there's no way anybody can ever get out from there.

LEMON: And what about -- I'll talk to you about New York City in just a moment.

So, Mr. Wolf, how do you feel about this latest development?

CHARLES WOLF, WIFE KATHERINE DIED ON 9/11: It's hard to hear you. So, I think you said, how do I feel about the latest development, is that correct?

LEMON: Yes, the latest development about prisoners being housed from Guantanamo Bay, being housed in Illinois or at other prisons around the United States.

WOLF: Well, I really don't think that that's a good idea. But, Don, I'm here to talk mostly about the bringing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to New York City.

LEMON: Yes. I'm going to get to that. I just wanted to get your response to the latest development, because the latest thing that just happened was the one that I spoke to you about. You're not happy with it.

WOLF: I do not -- I do not think -- I do not think it's a good idea to be bringing these terrorists into the United States and putting them in our prisons. There is association with other prisoners can turn those other prisoners into jihadists themselves. And I just do not think this is a good idea at all.

LEMON: OK. So, I've been -- what about being tried, then, in a civilian court? When you heard what the attorney general said yesterday, Mr. Wolf, what is your reaction to that?

WOLF: I am dead set against this. In June, I was one -- part of a group of 9/11 family members who met with the attorney general. And he explained why they need to close down Guantanamo. And it's not for a reason why a lot of us think.

And so, this -- bringing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and putting him in a civilian trial is absolutely the wrong thing to do. By doing this, you are -- you are taking his actions out of the realm of being an act of warfare and calling it a crime.

This was not a crime. This is far beyond a crime. It's an act of warfare. And that makes -- that is a big distinction.

We're heading down the same path that happened after the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

(CROSSTALK)

WOLF: When we tried the Blind Sheikh.

LEMON: Omar Abdel-Rahman. We're going to talk about that in just a little bit.

I want -- I want Ms. Hamdani to get in here. How do you feel about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the other four accused being brought to New York City?

HAMDANI: Well, I also -- I met Eric Holder, Attorney General Holder, in D.C. on the same, you know, the 19th of June, and I was down there at Guantanamo Bay, you know, the last hearing that did not transpire. However, I saw the workings over there, how it is.

And I feel -- I'm sorry for the loss of Mr. Charles. He lost his wife; I lost my son. But it's not about the five detainees, per se, it is the legality of what we are doing in the name of justice and liberty as far as it's saying that we are at war, war has not been declared. Without Congress, you cannot declare a war. So, a war has not been declared.

And if you do have these detainees in military commissions, the conviction rate over there of the past eight years, only three people have been convicted versus 195 in federal courts.

LEMON: Do you feel that...

HAMDANI: The chances of getting conviction is 91 percent in federal court. And if -- I'm going to conclude -- if we do convict them in a military court, they will appeal and they'll end up again in our federal system. So, why not start from here?

LEMON: I've heard some New Yorkers say and people who lost loved ones in 9/11 say this is too close to home. It opens old wounds. They're not going to stay in the city during the trial if it is indeed held there, if it's not a change of venue, because they are afraid of security and of terrorism and of this becoming a platform. What do you say to that, Mr. Wolf?

WOLF: Well, I think that those are all real prospects. But those aren't the reasons for not doing this.

Yes, the city of New York will be put under a great deal of strain if they bring the trial here, a great deal of strain. Not that our police department isn't capable, because it's a fabulous police department. But it's going to provide the terrorists around the world a platform. They're going to take this, and they're going to shred it apart by saying, "Well, how can you get a jury of impartial people when you're having the trial a five-minute walk from the site of the World Trade Center?"

And there are going to be all sorts of things that are going to come up. They're going to have the world press looking at it. And what's going to happen, it's going to give them a platform of which to espouse their values.

LEMON: OK.

WOLF: The tribunals that were going to be held were almost completed. The preparations were almost completed. And had the administration not stop this, this thing almost would have been finished in December or early next year.

LEMON: Let me ask you...

WOLF: Now, because we're changing -- because we're changing, everything has to start over.

LEMON: OK.

WOLF: This is a completely new set of rules. The civilian courts are set up for American law enforcement officers to arrest people, read their Miranda rights, and apply all the things like a writ of habeas corpus, meaning you can't keep a person locked up.

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: And we're going to talk about that, Mr. Wolf. Listen, this is going to be the last responses from you guys because we want to talk about some of the things that you mentioned here. So, you don't want the trial to be held in New York City, Mr. Wolf, but are you going to go if it is? Are you going to attend?

WOLF: Oh, I have no idea about that. I haven't thought about that. I doubt that I would. I don't need to see this person.

LEMON: Ms. Hamdani?

WOLF: I want -- I want my government to take theirs.

LEMON: Mrs. Hamdani, are you going to attend?

HAMDANI: Yes, definitely. I need to attend. I will attend.

As rebutting him, you know, the question of our Constitution is or our rather law enforcement is not strong enough to conduct and defend our, you know, priorities in a legal fashion, in a very, you know, fair system...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We have to wrap it up, unfortunately, Ms. Hamdani. I'll get your last thought in, but we have to wrap it up quickly.

HAMDANI: I trust my justice system, the Constitution which has been enforced in the last 230 years, and I want them tried at home. My son was murdered here, and I want to see them go to trial here and I want to be there each and every day.

LEMON: OK. That will have to be the last word.

Talat Hamdani and Charles Wolf -- thank you so much. I wish we had more time. But again, we want to talk about some of the issues that you raised with some of our legal minds. Thank you so much, OK?

HAMDANI: Thank you for having me.

WOLF: Thank you.

LEMON: And you heard them raise some of the issues here: waterboarding, sleep deprivation, habeas corpus, the treatment or mistreatment of the Gitmo prisoners, could come into play. Could some of the accused be let go by a technicality? What holds up in court with a case like this? Legal minds weigh in.

And on the hunt for the biggest threat facing our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq -- our Chris Lawrence joins us with his firsthand account.

And also, join the conversation. All you have to do is log on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. So, check this out. This was the scene of 9/11.

We all remember that day and what we were doing. It stopped most Americans in their tracks, except if you were trying to flee those ill-fated buildings there. A sad day that we remember here, and the whole reason that we are talking about Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay right now is because of those attacks and the attacks on the Pentagon and also the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

So, as I mentioned at the top of this newscast, the decision to try five 9/11 suspects in federal court in New York City is overshadowing President Obama's trip to Asia. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder explained what the U.S. is expecting to achieve with the trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I also want to assure the American people that we will prosecute these cases vigorously. And we will pursue the maximum punishment available. These were extraordinary crimes, and so, we will seek maximum penalties. Federal rules allow us to seek the death penalty for capital offenses, and while we will review the evidence and circumstances following established protocols, I fully expect to direct prosecutors to seek the death penalty against each of the alleged 9/11 conspirators.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, in addition to the five 9/11 accused conspirators, there are five other Gitmo prisoners to be tried soon, but not -- not in a civilian court. A tribunal will try the five men, including the Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the accused mastermind of the USS Cole attack, who is reported to be in poor health. The attack killed in 2000, 17 sailors.

Now, the attorney general says because the attack was against a U.S. warship, a military tribunal is the appropriate legal venue for that attack.

The decision to hold a civilian trial for the five 9/11 suspects has sparked a fierce legal debate. So, let's talk to someone who has been in both places here.

Thomas Kenniff has tried cases in both military and civilian courtrooms. He's a criminal defense attorney and a former JAG officer in the Army National Guard.

Just reading a little bit of what you said about this already, you believe that this and -- correct me if I'm wrong -- this is a bad precedent to set for terrorists by moving this trial to a civilian court?

THOMAS KENNIFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY/FORMER JAG OFFICER: Absolutely. I think it's a -- it's a precedent of unprecedented stupidity that I can't see any logic in other than political motives. I mean, Don, let's take a look at the message that we're sending to would-be terrorists who probably right now are plotting different ways to attack the United States. I mean, look, acts of terror are committed and they're plotted to engender fear in the population and to bring attention to these guys' radical clauses. And there is no greater stage than New York City.

So, what we're saying is, look, if you plot or hatch or commit an act of terrorism against the United States, we're going to give you an all-expense-paid trip to New York City, including room and board. And we're going to give you the biggest stage in the international forum upon which to espouse your radical views.

It makes absolutely no sense to me from either a legal standpoint, a political standpoint, or any sort of -- any sort of rational test that...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, you think that this raises the profile, and raises, I guess, the awareness and the media attention because it's going to be held in New York City, right?

KENNIFF: It raises the media attention. It gives the defendants the opportunity, like we've seen in previous terrorists trials in New York City, to basically turn it into a circus. It gives them a forum. It gives them a stage.

I think it's a terrible precedent. And I think it's going to incentivize other terrorists who, I'm certain, right now, are plotting similar acts against the United States.

LEMON: For the September 11th attacks, I lived in the New York City area, not in New York. For the 1993 attack, I was in New York City and working at the assignment desk at a local station. And we all remember the huge crater that was inside of that building.

But that trial with Omar Abdel-Rahman -- remember the Blind Sheikh -- that was held in a federal court in New York City. So, what is the difference here? What have we learned or did we learn anything from that case?

KENNIFF: Well, here's what I think the difference is. And I, too, was in New York City and I watched the towers fall from my office window. I mean, look, you know, following the Clinton administration, one of the big criticisms when 9/11 hit was that, look, we made a mistake in treating this as a criminal act and not treating it as an act of war.

Now, from a legal standpoint, there are some differences between 1993 and 2001. For one, the individuals that were tried in the 1993 attack were the ones that involved in actually committing the physical crime, and they were tried here in the United States because they were here in the United States when they committed that horrendous act. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his brethren are charged with conspiring to plot the 9/11 attack from the other side of the world. They were apprehended during the course of a war on the other side of the world.

Now, what sort of, you know, precedent are we sending for our soldiers and our intelligence agents who are fighting the war on terrorism? I mean, what are we going to tell them? That look, any further terrorists that you apprehend, they're going to be tried in the context of a civilian trial so, you know, while you're trying to get -- to smoke these guys out of caves, we want you to be holding Miranda, you know, warning cards and evidence vouchers because the trial of these individuals is going to be held to the same standard that, say, a trial of an American citizen is accused of committing a crime on our soil would be? It makes absolutely no sense.

LEMON: OK, let me ask you this, Mr. Kenniff. And this is what everybody has been wondering, because we don't know what's going to come up in court, and I'm sure their treatment or mistreatment, as we said earlier, in Guantanamo Bay is going to come up: waterboarding, sleep deprivation, all of that. Eric Holder says -- the attorney general says he is confident that, you know, he's going to get a conviction. The president echoes his statement.

But what about some technicality? Is there a possibility here that one of these guys could be let go or something could happen on a technicality here? What's the reality of that?

KENNIFF: Well, you know, it's hard to say, without knowing exactly what evidence the government has. But, look, anything's possible in a civilian trial. And it's going to be a much higher standard of proof than in the military commissions and much higher standard for as far as admitting evidence. I mean, look, the rules of evidence are a juggernaut even for seasoned criminal defense attorneys. So, if we're looking at something like, let's say, a confession, the standard for admitting a confession in a civilian trial is that it must be voluntary and that the defendant must be advised of his rights.

Are any of us to believe that these CIA interrogators, when they were softening up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were, you know, at the same time reading him his Miranda rights and telling him that he had a right to remain silent and to have an attorney present? You know, we know that didn't happen. So, that's going to create a serious evidentiary roadblock as far as getting in confessions.

Chain of custody, you know, CIA operatives aren't trained in the chain of custody because, generally, the cases they handle aren't brought into civilian court. But in this case, any evidence, computers, so forth, that are going to be introduced at these trials, you're going to have to establish who possessed the evidence, how it was obtained, whether it was obtained within the realm of the federal rules of evidence.

LEMON: So, basically, what you're saying, this is a risk and we'll have to see, you know, once there is a sentencing and the trial is over, whether it was a risk worth taking.

OK, thank you very much. Thomas Kenniff, we really appreciate you joining us.

KENNIFF: Thank you, sir. LEMON: All right. Late-breaking developments from Singapore tonight where President Obama is attending a summit, a new meeting just added to his agenda. We'll go there live.

And remembering the victims of the Fort Hood shootings -- funerals held across the country today for many of them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Obama is in Singapore this hour. He is taking part in Sunday morning meetings with leaders of 10 Asian Pacific nations. And CNN's White House correspondent, Dan Lothian, is there with the president. He's traveling there to that region to report on the president.

So Dan, let's start with our news, that we led our newscast with, that reports of Guantanamo Bay prisoners possibly being moved to the U.S., specifically the president's home state of Illinois. Has anyone had the chance to question the president about that?

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I have not had a chance yet to question the president on that issue, Don. As you pointed out though, CNN has confirmed that it's being considered, this facility in northern Illinois, is being considered as a potential facility to house those Gitmo detainees. I've reached out to several administration officials to find out if, indeed, this is one of those facilities on the list but still have not gotten any confirmation at least from the White House, Don.

LEMON: Yes. And at this point, that possibility and the news that we're reporting overshadowing the president's visit there. But we're also hearing from you, Dan, that there was something that was just added to the president's agenda.

LOTHIAN: That's right. This is a breakfast on climate change. It started about an hour ago. President Obama meeting with other leaders, APEC leaders, to focus on the issue of climate change. According to a White House official, saying this is an informal meeting but it's a chance to sort of gauge where the climate change debate is and then moving forward as you know.

Right now there is a process to try to figure out how to curb greenhouse gas emissions. And it's very controversial. So this is just part of that entire process. It was not expected to happen. The president adding it at the very last minute, again, climate change, is one of many issues the president focusing on at APEC here in Singapore.

LEMON: All right. CNN's Dan Lothian in Singapore. Thank you very much for that, Dan.

It has been a day of mourning across the country as families, friends and fellow soldiers say good-bye to victims of the Ft. Hood shootings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (MUSIC PLAYING)

LEMON: Friends and family of Pvt. Aaron Nemelka braved the snow today in Utah to say good-bye.

Army Staff Sergeant Justin Decrowe's funeral in Plymouth, Indiana, was another of the seven funerals being held today. Others being laid to rest were Staff Sergeant Amy Krueger in Wisconsin, Pvt. Michael Pearson in Illinois, Army Reserve Captain John Paul Gaffney in San Diego, Private Kaham Xiong in Minnesota and Special Jason and Specialist Jason D. Hunt in Oklahoma.

We want to get back now to our focus this hour, Afghanistan. CNN correspondent Atia Abawi has been based in the country for more than a year now. Up next, she rejoins me to talk about the debate over sending more U.S. troops into Afghanistan and the leadership of President Hamid Karzai.

And Mitt Romney takes on the president's handling of Afghanistan with an interesting comparison after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Obama's top stated priority in Afghanistan, he says, getting it right before sending more young men and women into war. Well, right now 68,000 American troops are on the ground in the Afghan war zone. The top U.S. commander there wants to deploy as many as 40,000 more. Some critics say President Obama is dragging his feet. But he is preaching patience, saying a decision is coming soon.

Former presidential candidate and one-time Massachusetts governor, Mitt Romney, is taking on President Obama over his policy in Afghanistan. Romney delivered a scathing speech to a group of conservative activists last night in California accusing the president of taking too long to reassess and implement his new strategy in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY, FMR. MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR: The president's inattention and dereliction have reminded me of the Northwest Airline pilots who became so distracted with things of little importance that they lost their way, which is exactly what this president has done in Afghanistan. In this case with greater consequence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Romney is widely expected to make another run at the GOP nomination for president. He's raised thousands of dollars this year for Republican candidates all across the U.S.

I want to bring in now our correspondent who has been on the ground in Afghanistan for over a year now. She is back in Atlanta from her reporting from Afghanistan. Atia Abawi, thank you so much for joining us here tonight. Just a few weeks back, good to have you home, talk to us about the mood on the ground there, especially about the troop levels in Afghanistan. I'm sure people are talking about it there.

ATIA ABAWI, CNN KABUL CORREPSONDENT: Absolutely. We've talked to both soldiers. We've talked to the Afghan people. They tell us when it comes to the troops, the troops, specially those on multiple deployments, they say that they need the extra troops to come in, that they need the help, that it's going to take a while, but they're committed to the effort right now.

When you talk to the Afghan people, they don't know what to think at the moment. They're wondering what will exactly help them. They see that the international effort has been in Afghanistan for the past eight years. And they're questioning why it has taken so long. So right now they don't know who to turn to, but the Taliban, they have a propaganda game going on right now.

They do have a PR that's fairly effective. They're going out talking to the Afghan people from villages to villages. They're using force. They're using threats, but it's working to their advantage.

LEMON: And they're talking to them almost like a get-out-the- vote campaign here in the United States when people are running for office, is that what you're saying, a similar thing to that?

ABAWI: Somewhat so. It's more so telling them how evil the international community is. The Taliban go and they threaten the Afghan people. They say if you do turn to the Afghan government that, in fact, you will actually be hampering your own future, your family's future, because in the end, they say that the international community will leave, leave them behind, and then they will have to actually fend for themselves.

LEMON: So it's their propaganda, their rhetoric that they're spreading there. I know you're back. You're back for a short time. And you did cover the elections there when you were there. And you're going to go back in a little bit here and continue to cover the region. So I'm going to ask you about the elections.

Hamid Karzai, just re-elected. Is he a good partner for the United States in this war?

ABAWI: That really depends on who you talk to. When you talk to some people, they will say no. Some people will say yes. President Karzai, when it comes to the Afghan people, they say that they do see him as a symbol of freedom. He was a change from the Taliban of eight years ago, but at the same time, they also see that the Afghan government has been pretty much a culprit in their eyes to the deterioration of Afghanistan.

They know that billions of dollars have been poured into their country from the international community, and they see the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The average Afghan says they haven't seen even one dollar of those billions of dollars.

LEMON: And speaking about Hamid Karzai, we've been hearing a lot lately about his brother. His brother is Ahmed Wali, right, Karzai and corruption. Talk to us about that. What's going on with this? And the drug trade as well.

ABAWI: Well, there has been media reports, there has been accusations against Ahmed Wali Karzai, that's President Karzai's brother. But President Karzai himself says that that's unsubstantiated. That, in fact, his brother is not a part of this drug trade. But media reports and various officials will say it in whispers. They won't come out on the record and say it, but they do say that he's involved in this narco trade, that he is part of this corruption. That he himself is pocketing the money. But, again, President Karzai denies those allegations.

LEMON: I'm learning so much from you and I hope the viewers are as well. We're going to keep you around and talk to you a little bit more. Atia Abawi, thank you. More with her in just a little bit.

I want to talk also about drugs, specifically heroin and opium where the war on drugs and the war in Afghanistan collide.

And taking on the unknown enemy. Along for the ride with U.S. soldiers who wonder where the bombs are hidden, the bombs are hidden, I should say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So Afghanistan has a drug problem. Just ask the United Nations. And it says the opium harvest is feeding a $65 billion heroin trade. $65 billion heroin trade. That's a lot of money. That means corruption, addiction and, of course, crime. Let's bring back Atia Abawi who saw this problem first hand and not only from adults, right?

ABAWI: Absolutely.

LEMON: But from children who were addicted because their mothers feel like they don't have any other alternative.

ABAWI: Absolutely. Opium is cheaper than a blanket. I spoke to a mother who actually put opium leaves into boiling water because she couldn't stand that her children were cold at night, that they couldn't get to sleep, and that was the one thing that would put them to sleep. We went to this rehab center for women. And you go next door, there's a place for their children. And many of those children are addicts themselves.

LEMON: Let's watch a little bit of what you reported on, and then we'll come back.

ABAWI: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABAWI (voice-over): Damila (ph) is here with four of her children. When they were homeless, she gave them a drink laced with opium.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (through translator): We didn't have blankets or shawls and it would snow on them. So I'd give them the drug and until morning they would be warm and sleeping. They couldn't even tell if it was cold or warm outside. Because of this, these little ones are patients with me.

ABAWI: Zohal (ph) became an addict at the age of seven. She was offered hashish after her father died. Now 14, she has been in and out of this rehab center six times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I would go polish boots. And when I put glue on the boots, I liked the smell. So I started sniffing that. Then slowly I went into everything. Alcohol, glue, hashish, opium and heroin.

ABAWI: Women and children here are treated for free and are fed, too.

(on camera): On average the center gets five new patients every week. 20 every month. Barely scratching the surface when it comes to the nation's drug problem.

(voice-over): Not far away in the ruins of the Soviet Cultural Center, dozens of addicts gaze into a future without hope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: OK. So you see that. And we talk about troop levels, very important stuff that we talk about. Having a government that can run on its own, the Afghanistan government. That's important in itself. And training police officers. But when you look at this, recovering from this is going to take probably decades for the people of Afghanistan to recover from war.

ABAWI: Absolutely. And when I spoke to General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of NATO forces, to Carl Eikenberry, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, they recognized that problem. They recognized that resources are needed. Time is needed. I spoke to them separately when we went to eastern Afghanistan to witness what was going on with the civilian effort. They say that that is the key to fixing Afghanistan's problem. And the problem isn't just war. It's a society that doesn't function.

LEMON: And I'm going to talk to you just a little bit about this because I'm going to bring you back again. But this is the problem that's facing the troops. This is what funds the insurgency, the drug money.

ABAWI: It's the drug money. It's also Persian Gulf states, according to many sources that I have spoken to in the past. The money is coming from outside of Afghanistan but also within Afghanistan when it comes to the drugs and when it comes to the narcotics industry. And some of those people involved in the narcotics industry, it's people within the government of Afghanistan.

LEMON: Atia, stick around. We're going to talk a little bit more straight ahead. We're also going to discuss the difference between Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Folks tend to lump them together, but they are not the same.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Blast after blast, day in and day out. In Pakistan, a suicide car bomber blew himself up at a police check point in Peshawar today, killing 11 people. The attach mirrors the dual bombing yesterday. 17 people died in a pair of explosions in and around the city. Police running through smoke-filled streets, past burned out buildings, a common scene along the Pakistan-Afghan border and the Taliban is promising more attacks, more bloodshed.

Let's bring back Atia Abawi with a difference between Al Qaeda and the Taliban, most people lump them together. What is the main difference here?

ABAWI: Well, when you speak to the commanders on the ground. They'll tell you that Al Qaeda isn't really inside of Afghanistan. It is more so outside of Afghanistan. They do feel that Al Qaeda does have a strong effect within Pakistan. But that the Taliban within Afghanistan, they are getting the funding from Al Qaeda.

The Taliban is more of a homegrown insurgency. It's not foreign fighters. You have possibly several hundred foreign fighters within Afghanistan, according to some sources that I've spoken to on the ground. But you have tens of thousands of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban fighters fighting the U.S. and coalition forces within Afghanistan. So the difference here is that the Taliban, it is more homegrown.

LEMON: Right.

ABAWI: It more of from the Madras within Pakistan, within Afghanistan but Al Qaeda is more of the foreign fighters that are coming from outside and being funded by Persian Gulf states.

LEMON: And when we talk about Iraq we tend to talk about religious differences about Sunni, Shia, in Afghanistan it is not that?

ABAWI: When Afghanistan, it is not very much a Sunni-Shia issue as much as it is an ethnic issue. The Taliban is primarily from the Pashtun ethnic group. Afghanistan has several different ethnicities and the key here to look at is in the early 1990s. There was a very barbaric and gruesome civil war. At times, the Afghan people call the most barbaric part of their history. That's why they welcomed the Taliban with open arms in 1996. And that's what they're afraid that the country will go back to if the international forces leave.

LEMON: OK. So what about this idea of, you know, sort of the moderate factions in the Taliban that they can be sort of peeled off and maybe brought over to, you know, the American side or the side that - the Afghani government, the democracy, to that side. Is that a real possibility or no?

ABAWI: That is a really great question and that is a question that many people are asking right now. Because when you look at the Taliban in Afghanistan it is not just one group. It is not the Taliban of 10 years ago that answer to just one leader, Mullah Omar. You go to the different parts of Afghanistan, you have different Taliban groups. Some are more moderate. Some will possibly work with the Afghan government if they are given the incentive, if it will help their tribal groups.

But there are other Taliban groups with different Taliban leaders that are so fundamental in their ideologies that nothing will sway them and they will fight to their death.

LEMON: Atia, very good information. And we're going to continue to talk to you after the show. So stick around but thank you for joining us tonight and helping us, guiding us through this. Really appreciate it.

The hunt for the biggest threat facing our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, our Chris Lawrence joins us with his firsthand account.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Life in a war zone, unpredictable and always dangerous especially when you are potentially driving through hell. Our Chris Lawrence rode shotgun in a Humvee with a group of soldiers who know all about that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We cramped ourselves into the back of a Humvee. And roll out on to highway one.

(BLEEP)

LAWRENCE: They call this road IED alley.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can show you the world.

LAWRENCE: And, yes, there is a story behind this silly song.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shining, shimmering splendid. You know what happened when you didn't sing it last time?

LAWRENCE: There is also an argument over who is the hottest Disney character.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is an ongoing debate. There are a lot of votes for Jasmine apparently. But I'm an Ariel man myself.

LAWRENCE: For the heck of it, I throw in a vote for Pocahontas. Soldiers know militants like to hide in the irrigation canals so the convoy stops a lot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: That was our Chris Lawrence. I talked with him about he learned from the troops that he was embedded with. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAWRENCE (on camera): These soldiers and the Marines as well they don't know whether that roadside bomb is going to hit two feet in front of them, two miles down the road. They don't know if it's going to hit in two weeks or two months. That kind of just nonstop pressure, you know, you think back home how many times do you get on the train or the bus or get in your car, drive to work, drive to errand, pick up the kids, you don't even think about that.

You are thinking about a million other things in your mind as you make that drive. You know, these troops are dealing with this feeling of never knowing where that bomb is coming from and I think that's why the IEDs just can be so devastating on morale because the troops that I talked to feel like it's very hard to figure out what they can do to stop it.

They hit the front car. They hit the back car in the convoy. They hit the middle. There is little rhyme or reason to it and it can just be terribly s frustrating for some of those troops to deal with.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: CNN'S Chris Lawrence embedded with our soldiers in Afghanistan. I'm Don Lemon. I'll see you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.