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Illinois Prison a Mini-Gitmo?; White House Shake-up; 9/11 Suspects' Trial in New York City; Photos of Prisoner Abuse; Life in a War Zone
Aired November 15, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening everyone. It is the top of the hour. I'm Don Lemon.
A maximum security prison in Illinois could become home to some of the 200 detainees now housed at Guantanamo Bay. Members of the Obama administration will check out the facility tomorrow. And at the same time the administration is moving ahead with its decision to try five of those Gitmo prisoners in New York City for their alleged involvement in the 2001 attack.
All of this is happening while the president is overseas on official business in Asia. But it's creating a firestorm at home and he's going to have to deal with it when he returns.
For the rest of this hour we're going to peel back the layers on this complicated and important story so that you can be better informed about the issues at stake here.
First to the American heartland, federal officials will travel to tiny Thomson, Illinois, tomorrow to see if the nearly empty maximum security prison there is suitable to take some of the detainees now held in the military prison in Guantanamo Bay.
Already politicians are sounding off both for and against this. The Illinois governor today pitched it as a much need economic boost for the state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. PAT QUINN (D), ILLINOIS: This is an opportunity of a lifetime for the people of Illinois to think of a facility that's been constructed with taxpayers dollars from the people of Illinois and to have a transaction with the federal government, the Federal Bureau of Prisons to allow the federal government to use it for public purposes and protection of the people of our state and our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But other politicians are saying not so fast. Just listen to Illinois Congressman Mark Kirk, a Republican from the president's home state of Illinois who fired off a letter to Mr. Obama warning "If your administration brings al Qaeda terrorists to Illinois, our state and the Chicago Metropolitan area will become Ground Zero for Jihadists, terrorist plots, recruitment and radicalization. As home to America's tallest building, we should not invite al Qaeda to make Illinois its number one target."
The prison is located in Congressman Don Manzullo's district and he's not happy about the possibility some Guantanamo detainees may be housed there. He joins me now on the phone.
Congressman, you're on record saying you're adamantly against this facility being in your district. Why?
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), MAZULLO (via telephone): Well, we just had a high level briefing with the Department of Defense and the Bureau of Prisons today and found out that somewhere between 100 and 215 al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists would be moved from Gitmo to Thomson, Illinois, and with the move from Guantanamo Bay to Thomson, Illinois, that means the stigma of Gitmo would transfer to Thomson thus, making us in an area that would be in extreme danger of national security breach.
LEMON: Well, Congressman, from all accounts, we have reporters there on the ground and hearing from people who live in the tiny town of Thomson, that it is in dire straits financially and when it comes to job losses. And they are looking forward to having this prison at least fill up a little bit so that it might offer some jobs; for people to come through the community to sample the cooking and, you know, in diners and restaurants there or buy clothing. What do you say to those people?
MANZULLO: That's correct. And we agree and we are asking the president to sever the Gitmo component from using the facility and therefore have the Bureau of Prisons operators as 100 percent Bureau of Prison facility without the Gitmo detainees. That will take care of solving a lot of problems with regard to jobs.
LEMON: So you're asking the president to remove the Gitmo? Explain what you mean.
MANZULLO: Yes.
LEMON: You don't want him to bring the Gitmo prisoners there...
MANZULLO: Absolutely. We don't want those terrorists, those 100 to 215 al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists removed from Gitmo to Thomson, Illinois.
LEMON: Then where would you like the prisoners to come from?
MANZULLO: They should stay -- they should stay at Gitmo that's the whole point. Gitmo is protected by oceans.
LEMON: Now, here's what I'm asking you.
MANZULLO: Thomson, Illinois is protected by corn fields.
LEMON: I understand that. But you're saying that -- if you can all agree on that, yes, and you would like to see what the folks in that town would like to see. But where are you going to get the extra business, the revenue, the people and if you're talking about bringing prisoners to the Thomson correctional facility, where are you going to get them from, if not from Guantanamo Bay?
MANZULLO: Look, the prisoners would come as part of the Bureau of Prisons. We talked with the Director Lappin today. He has a huge need for more capacity and I asked him if the money were available for Bureau of Prisons to buy the Thomson facility would he go ahead and buy it? He said, "Of course. He said we need it," so that's what we're asking the president to do.
We do not want this dangerous Taliban -- the dangerous Taliban and al Qaeda people brought into the state of Illinois endangering the safety of the people. So there's no reason why the president should disagree with us on trying to make his home state a place of more employment by opening up this prison and dedicate it to federal prisoners and not detainees.
LEMON: So when the president gets -- have you spoken with anyone in the administration yet?
MANZULLO: No. Well, actually I did. I spoke with -- I was informed of the situation on Friday afternoon.
LEMON: Ok and so who informed you?
MANZULLO: It was somebody at the Department of Transportation and that's how we got notice of it. But it's not uncommon for people to get late notice because these things -- sometimes break a lot more quickly than you would think they would be.
LEMON: Right. We know that you're pondering a lot and that you're dealing with a lot. And we appreciate your time; Congressman Don Manzullo from Illinois.
Now, if Gitmo 2.20 or 2.0, I should say, lands in Thomson, what about the people who live there? How do they feel about the possibility of having terror suspects held in their own backyard?
Kia Carter from CNN affiliate WQAB is on the phone in Thomson tonight.
Kia what are you hearing from people there? We are hearing from our own reporters that most people are happy about that? Is that not correct?
KIA CARTER, REPORTER, WQAB (via telephone): Well, there is kind of mixed reaction. There are some older folks in the community who frankly say they don't want alleged terrorist in their backyard, but senators from Illinois have said, you know, no one has escaped from a maximum security prison in the U.S. Some people are saying there's a first time for everything. So they're concerned.
But a majority of people here are not very worried. They say they just want see something done with this facility. They're frustrated at the state our prison that was supposed to do so much for the community. They've basically been sitting in limbo for the last eight years. With just a few prisoners and a few bars and they want to see something happen with it. LEMON: Ok. So listen, there will probably be more jobs; that's what at least the people are saying there. There will be more jobs added and possibly more guards. But they are not sure if it's going to be the guards who are used to dealing with these sort of inmates. So what happens to the prison guards who are there now? Will the keep their job?
CARTER: Well, yes. There are expected to be about 2,000 prison jobs that would be open with this and if the Feds took over, in Thomson about a 1000 jobs create outside of the prison. Right now the guards who were hired for Thomson some of them are their right now, some of them are in other cities in Illinois waiting to get the call that Thomson will open and they will come back.
But right now, you know the folks in Thomson say that these guards are saying they don't think they will keep their jobs. The director of the Illinois prison system Mike Randle, he said that the guards would have to reapply to these federal prison guards that means different and more stringent qualifications that they would have meet. For instance, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, they don't hire new guards over the age of 36.
But the director also said that he hopes that those guards will be at the top of the list for new hires should the Fed take over Thomson, but there is no guarantee.
LEMON: Hey, Kia, I'm not sure if you heard my interview with Congressman Tom Manzullo. He does not want this, want Gitmo detainees coming there. What are you hearing about any political opposition there?
CARTER: Well, I'm hearing that there are some politicians with concerns especially about the guards that were hired and also, about the state giving up a state of the art facility that could be used to control overcrowding in maximum security prisons that is going on in Illinois right now.
The state just doesn't have the money to run the prison right now, but ultimately today senators, local representatives, the governor, the Thomson Village president, they all showed a very strong and united front saying that they want Thomson Correction Center to be chosen for the Gitmo prisoners.
And they hope that everyone is on board and a lot of people in the town are saying, you know, what does it matter what we think. They're going to do what they're going to do, and they seem to want to do this.
LEMON: Kia Carter from our affiliate WQAB. Thank you Kia.
Let's find out what some of the people who live in Thomson, Illinois think about all of this. Petra Fry joins me now phone. She's the owner of Nate's Riverview Pizza Pub in Thomson not far from the correctional center. Is it Petra or Petra?
PETRA FRY, BUSINESS OWNER, THOMSON ILLINOIS: : It's Petra. LEMON: I had a high school friend that's Petra, and somebody named Petra. Ok, so listen, Nate's Riverview Pizza Pub on Riverview Road...
FRY: Yes.
LEMON: Right in Thomson, do you think that it will boost your business, if these detainees come to town?
FRY: I think it will -- I think personally it will boost everybody's business in this community and I think it needs to be done. We need to get that prison open.
LEMON: So then why the concern, do you believe? I don't know if you heard the congressman there, and there are other people and mostly politicians who are saying no way, we don't want this.
FRY: I have not heard much about it, because I have been working both days, but my belief is if it's a security concern, I don't have, because I'm very sure that the federal government will do everything in their power to make this safe to them.
LEMON: This is sort of -- and correct me if I'm wrong this prison is there -- so this is sort of life or business as usual for you guys. Do you really pay much attention to the prison or is this just something that is there, you know it's there and...
FRY: It is there. It is a constant burden. It's a constant worry what's going to happen if it doesn't open.
LEMON: Are you concerned about safety even with the inmates who are there now?
FRY: No. I am not. They -- I am very sure. You know, when you see them out -- it's a minimum right now -- and they are well supervised and I am not worried at all.
LEMON: We're seeing pictures of the town that that you live there. You have a business there. Walk us through this town and especially what has happened to it over the last few years because of the economy, Petra.
FRY: Business-wise, it has gone down major, and I think it affects pretty much everybody in the immediate area and surrounding areas because when the prison was supposed to be open before, it keeps being shut down because no budget money.
People were starting to, you know, with promises made trying to advance it a little bit and help it along, you know, and put extra money it, get things going, and then being shut down and shut down. It costs a lot of havoc in the community.
It's an immense tax burden, and it needs to be addressed, and if we can open that prison, even federally, I think it would be to the benefit of everybody around.
LEMON: Petra Fry lives there and owns Nate's Riverview Pizza Pub in Thomson. We appreciate it. Thank you. Best of luck to you, ok?
FRY: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
The president, President Barack Obama, of course, is in China; part of his eight-day trip through the region there. Our senior White House correspondent Ed Henry joins me now from Shanghai. Good Monday morning to you, even though it is Sunday evening here.
Is this a done deal for Illinois? What are White House sources telling you, if anything?
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: They're saying it's not a done deal, but they think it's pretty far along. They're going to defer to the state officials, the Bureau of Prisons and others, as you have been reporting, to make sure that everything fits, make sure they go through and run all the traps.
I talked to a top White House official who told me point-blank, this is a very attractive option, because they think there's basically this empty prison in a relatively remote area.
In terms of safety this top White House official was pointing out to me that there's never been a hardened criminal to escape with a super max prison anywhere in the United States before. They believe that any Gitmo detainees that would be sent to Illinois would be kept in the prison and would not escape.
Secondly, you've heard the jobs argument. They think it would create up to 3,000 jobs. And, finally, I mentioned to this White House official, does it help you politically the fact that it's in the president's home state? This official said that was not a factor driving it, but acknowledged that it could help politically because if, instead, the president wanted to send these terror suspects, these detainees from a Guantanamo to a state like Texas that he did not carry in the presidential election, and it seemed like he wanted to just stick these terror suspects somewhere far from his own home state it would be harder to sell.
They're saying, look, this is right in his backyard, essentially, President Obama. Just a couple hundred miles outside Chicago, as you know, and they're saying, you know, that certainly not hurting the argument that he is not afraid to put these detainees in his home state potentially, and because he thinks they're going to be kept lock and key.
LEMON: And Ed, this is coming from sources within the administration. The president has not spoken about this at all.
HENRY: That's right. The president has not spoken out, you know, fully on this. A couple days ago a reporter on a previous stop in Japan asked generally about sending Gitmo detainees to New York -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others for trial, and the president insisted that he believes that they will face swift justice and that, you know, they're essentially not going to get off the hook. Because as White House officials are pointing out, some 91 percent of the terror cases that have been tried in civilian force in recent years have actually gotten convictions. They think also on that separate issue they can actually convict these terror suspects -- Don.
LEMON: Hey, so let's talk about this Greg Craig announcement and the timing and all of this. Some people are saying that it's suspect; they don't believe the whole story, that what Craig's side is saying and what the administration saying walk us through that, please.
HENRY: I think Greg Craig clearly got caught in the middle of a political firestorm. It may not have really been his fault, but the Guantanamo issue was at the center of it.
When you talk to the White House officially, they insist the president was happy with his top lawyer, Greg Craig; is currently the White House counsel, the top lawyer inside the White House. For months there have been rumors that he was going to get pushed out.
He and others kept saying, "No, that's not true," and then late Thursday night in Japan I reported out that the bottom line is that he was going to step down on Friday, and he did. He will be leaving by the end of the year.
White House officials insist it's not because of Guantanamo, but, in fact, I have talked to other people inside the White House and outside the White House who in private say it was Greg Craig who as a top lawyer really advised the president that he could sign this executive order week one of the administration that said he would shut Guantanamo down by the end of January 2010.
It's been a big political embarrassment that now White House officials are saying they'll probably miss that deadline. And the significance, of course, is that's why this debate is playing out in Illinois. That's why this debate is playing out in New York City with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other detainees going there for trial.
It's the fact that this White House put a deadline on getting these Guantanamo detainees, over 200 of them, out of Guantanamo. They have to do something with them. Some of them have gone into other countries, but they're going to have to put a majority of them probably inside the United States. A political hot potato, but they believe as the president has been saying in recent days that he wants to put these terror suspects through the American justice system and show that we're better than the terrorists -- Don
LEMON: All right. Ed Henry in shanghai. Ed, thank you.
Next week it's going to be very interesting and when the president gets back even more interesting. We appreciate it. Stay safe over there.
HENRY: No doubt.
LEMON: Both anger and jubilation over news this week that the so-called mastermind of the 9/11 attacks is being moved to New York City. Anger that the sight of a murder trial is so close to the World Trade Center; joy that after eight years there will finally be a trial -- a look at both sides next.
And of course, we want your comments, your feedback. We're going to read some in just a little bit right here on CNN. Log on; that's how you can get your comments to us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I've ordered that the full resources of the federal government to go and help the victims and their families and to conduct a full scale investigation, to hunt down and find to those folks who committed this act.
Terrorism against our nation will not stand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: I expect that will we will try them together and I expect that through a really searching, complete voir dire process that we can come up with a jury that will insure that the defendants will get a fair trial in New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You saw President Bush there on September 11th, 2001, speaking at a school when those attacks happened. And then U.S. Attorney Eric Holder just two days ago announcing the government's decision to try alleged 9/11 ringleader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four alleged subordinated. They are charged in the worst terror attack ever committed on U.S. soil. And the trial is to be held literally a stone's throw away from Ground Zero in New York more than 8 years after the fact.
While many people -- while many people welcome the prospect, I should say, of justice being served, there are some questions that the trial's venue and the potential risks. Those critics include Rudy Giuliani, the city's mayor during the 9/11 tragedy and former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. He is not the only one to question their locale. They are not.
But utilizing the federal courts instead of a military tribunal, here's what he told -- and we're talking about Giuliani -- told John King on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANO, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: It's a great example to the rest of the world. The tradition for over 150 years has been to use those military tribunals. They were good enough for Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, and many, many cases, and, in fact, the really strange thing about this decision is five of these are going to be tried in military tribunals anyway. So, the reality is, this is an unnecessary -- first of all, it's an unnecessary advantage to give to the terrorists. I don't know why you want to give terrorists advantages. And secondly, it's an unnecessary risk to the city of New York, which already has any number of risks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Giuliani went on to praise New York City police as being up to any task, but said the trial would be an extraneous burden on the department.
Let's delve into -- a little bit deeper here from CNN's Kate Bolduan. She is live in our Washington bureau with some insight on this.
Good evening to you, Kate. This morning the talk shows were lined up with folks ready to debate this issue.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Don. And the debate is not letting up over the administration's -- over the administration's decision to try self-described 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four others, Don, just blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood.
Now, many Republicans, including the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hofstra, they argue that the alleged terrorists should face military commissions. That they're not deserving of the protections afforded in civilian courts.
Listen here to the Congressman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETE HOSTRA (R), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This is ideology run wild. We're going to go back into New York City to the scene of the tragedy on 9/11. We're now going to rip that wound wide open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Other concerns over this decision include the security threat such a high profile case could bring to New York City. And other critics are concerned this move offers the suspected terrorists a platform for their radical propaganda -- Don.
LEMON: Yes, but Kate, the Obama administration is rejecting those concerns.
BOLDUAN: That's right. The Obama administration, they're really pushing back against this criticism. Listen here to White House senior adviser David Axelrod.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID AXELROD, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: These folks should be tried in New York City, as you say, near where their heinous acts were conducted in full view in our court system, which we believe in. We feel strongly that justice will be done here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Attorney general Eric Holder, when he made this announcement, he said prosecutors will seek the death penalty, and he says he thinks that the suspected 9/11 plotters will get just that -- Don.
LEMON: Just before, you had played the sound bite of the former mayor Rudy Giuliani on "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JOHN KING" this morning. We have heard from him. What about the current mayor?
BOLDUAN: It's a very different opinion, we can say. Mayor Bloomberg has come out. He is coming out in support of the administration's decision. He said in a statement that it is fitting that 9/11 suspects face justice near the World Trade center site where so many New Yorkers were murdered, he said. Mayor Bloomberg, as you can tell, don, seems confident that the city, NYPD, the residents of the city that they're ready and able to host these trials.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Kate Bolduan joining us from our Washington bureau tonight. We appreciate it.
Word that the 9/11 suspects are headed to New York is raising lots of questions, you can see that. Our national correspondent Susan Candiotti, she joins me now.
Susan, you have seen trials like this before, so I'll ask you this. Do you think that the city really knows what it is getting into here?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly the New York police commissioner Ray Kelly thinks that they're perfectly capable of handling this. They've done it before: the 1993 World Trade Center bombings trial; as well as the African Embassy trials were held here too. And in fact, Ray Kelly says he also, like Mayor Bloomberg, thinks it's entirely appropriate to have the trial here.
Will it be difficult? Yes. Will there probably be street closings? Yes. Will the security be incredibly tough? Yes, it will be. However, authorities think that they -- there will be an increased terror threat, but they insist that they can handle it.
LEMON: Some people are concerned about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the others of use this as a platform and concerned about its antics and possibly recruiting people during this trial.
CANDIOTTI: That is certainly a possibility and certainly something to be concerned about. However, others point out there, and I saw some of this firsthand when I was at Guantanamo in January of this year when there was a hearing, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was there. And he stood in that courtroom before at the tribunal and said, "I don't care about the death penalty. I don't care about a life sentence. I am the mastermind of September 11th." And there are legal experts who say if that man stands up in the middle of a courtroom in front of a jury compared to a military tribunal in Gitmo, imagine the impact that will have on a jury, and that's what they say could really work against him, obviously.
LEMON: Speaking of saying that, you were at Guantanamo Bay last January with the families when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said he was the master mind of those attacks. So are outbursts -- I would imagine they are a legitimate concern and I'm sure you're hearing from family members again about this issue.
CANDIOTTI: They are. And they really are divided. Some of them think it's absolutely a bad idea to move this case to New York City; again, providing him a platform. They wanted to reach through the glass that was a partition at Gitmo and strangle him, they said, when they heard him say that.
LEMON: Susan...
CANDIOTTI: On the other hand, other families think -- yes?
LEMON: Yes. I'm up against the break here, but I want to get this because there are some -- people are asking about a possible change of venue being granted here. Have you heard anything about that?
CANDIOTTI: Well, you can bet your bottom dollar that the defense attorneys involved in this case will make a move, but others say they're going to go through an extensive process of interviewing jurors to make sure that whatever preconceived notions they have about this, they can put them aside. The fact is everyone in the United States, I'm sure, has an opinion, obviously, about the 9/11 attacks and whether you can find anyone that is completely devoid of an opinion is next to impossible.
LEMON: Yes.
CANDIOTTI: The question is can they put that aside and listen to the evidence?
LEMON: Susan Candiotti, stand by. We'll be calling on you a little bit later on in our newscast. Thank you.
Now let's focus on the terror suspects' plan to destroy the World Trade Center. It was intricate. It was deadly and it worked. The author of "Global Jihadism" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: All of these stories are very much like this. People are just hoping that their relatives are out there somewhere, and they're begging us to talk about them, to show their pictures hoping that if someone has seen them that they might be able to identify them and give some information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That is now our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, back on September 13th, 2001. A very emotional time for the entire country, really the entire world.
Of the five terror suspects, President Obama wants to bring to New York City for trial Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. It's by far the most important. He claims and U.S. officials believe him that he was the man who put the 9/11 attacks in motion.
Jarret Brachman who took this picture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed at Guantanamo Bay is the author of the book "Global Jihadism." He joins us tonight from Fargo, North Dakota. Thank you very much. And reading what you wrote here and you said that this trial is more than just a soapbox for him, you think that he has been waiting for this opportunity for a long time.
VOICE OF JARRET BRACHMAN, AUTHOR "GLOBAL JIHADISM": Yes. I mean, the fact is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, you could say he is the Hannibal Lector, right? Of Al Qaeda. This guys, he's nefarious. His mind works in a way that a lot of the Al Qaeda leadership minds don't. He is a big thinker. He is a true believer.
But this guy, you know, he is incredibly dastardly, I guess is the beast way to say it.
LEMON: And you go on to say that this is his chance to indict the entire system. What do you mean by that?
BRACHMAN: Well, I mean, you know, the fact that rejects the very foundation in which our laws, our court system, you know, are build. And so when he gets into the situation, there's just no reason for him to take it seriously. And so to say that he's going to make a mockery of it, you know, I think is an understatement. But you know, if we expect that going in, then I think he can be restrained.
LEMON: Our correspondent Susan Candiotti talked about the last time that he had such a platform which was at a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay. He started delivering supposedly this rambling exposition on a number of topics.
Susan Candiotti. Is Susan there now? So Susan, listen, I have you here with Mr. Brachman. And I'm talking to him regarding the last time that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had a platform like this and the antics that he performed in that courtroom. Was it a courtroom or just a room?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It was a courtroom. The military commission courtroom in Guantanamo, and you know, Don, I even pulled this up. That may have been the last time but in July of 2007, this is an unclassified document released by the Pentagon, and this was another time where he went on a rant that lasted this - this document lasts more than 20 pages in which he even says I feel - "I feel very sorry that kids were killed on September 11th, but he said sometimes it's necessary." In his words, "I want to make a great awakening between Americans to stop foreign policy in our land. So, yes, he will say this, and he probably will say it, and as was just mentioned by your guest, I'm sure he will say it again, but the judge, I'm sure, will keep a tight rein on the courtroom.
LEMON: Well, Jarret Brachman, he said - Susan Candiotti says the judge will keep tight rein in the courtroom, but this is going to be open to the public because a number of the victims' families who we've spoken to say they plan to go every single day if they're allowed.
BRACHMAN: Yes, I think that's a good thing. I mean, I think - I mean, this will be very cathartic for them to see this man brought to justice, but, you know, I mean, the transcripts are released whether or not military tribunal or open courtroom. And so, you know, our system is robust enough to deal with the ramblings of this guy. So I think we should expect this, but we shouldn't fear him.
LEMON: Don't you think people would have to be open and susceptible to this in order for - during a trial, however long it lasts, for them to be swayed by some - the ramblings of a man in a courtroom?
BRACHMAN: Well, you know, I think we're going to see two types of reactions. One is from this global movement. Most of whom have already bitten off more than they can chew in this ideology, and so these are guys who already support him. And they're not going to be convinced, you know, more so than they already are, but the other reaction that people aren't really paying attention to is the high command of Al Qaeda.
I mean, when they view - when Osama Bin Laden thinks of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, I think he thinks of him as a strategic competitor. This is why Al Qaeda never brings up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed anymore. They've erased him from their history books because it takes away from Bin Laden's own reputation of greatness.
LEMON: You were mentioned in a "New York Times" article that I read this morning talking about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the man who is believed to carry, was supposed to carry the torch or at least the person who got the work done. He was the worker be that carried out all these sins.
BRACHMAN: You know he was kind of operating laterally from Al Qaeda. He didn't officially swear allegiance to Al Qaeda until after 9/11, and so that's an important point. I mean, he worked seamlessly with the group, but at the same time, you know, he was always kind of an outsider. He was from (INAUDIBLE) - he had his own network of guys and operatives.
And so this is why Al Qaeda always has never really known what to do with him, but he did get the job done. Again, that's what makes him a competitor to Bin Laden's reputation and legacy.
LEMON: Well, Jarret Brachman is the author of the book called "Global Jihadism." And our Susan Candiotti is our national correspondent in New York who has been helping us out on the story as well. Thanks to both of you, OK?
BRACHMAN: Thanks a lot.
LEMON: Images of torture. Should the government release other photos of prisoners of war being abused by American troops? We'll hear from war veteran and criminal defense attorney Steve Racer, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. A U.S. soldier, a prisoner and a camera but we don't know what images were captured. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is blocking the release of 21 colored photographs that allegedly show American troops abusing prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I have two guests joining me tonight to talk us through this. From New York City, Steve Raiser is a criminal defense attorney and an Iraq vet, and on the phone with me tonight from Irvine, California, we have David Frakt from Western State Law School. He is a member of the Air Force reserve, and he has worked with the ACLU. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us tonight.
So Steve, I'll start where you. Do you have any idea what is in some of these pictures? What they contain and why is keep them secret?
STEVE RAISER, ATTORNEY: Well, I think we can opine what they are, I mean, we can certainly assume they're very similar to what the Abu Ghraib photographs were, and they are the same type of photographs, exactly what they depict is not clear although that they've come through with some information, the graphic nature of them, which is very similar to Abu Ghraib, and we saw the reaction there when those photographs became public.
And I think it is the correct thing that President Obama is doing at this point, which is basically saying, look, they're not saying that these things are never going to be released or made public, but now is not the time. Not in the middle of a civil trial at the World Trade Center, in the middle of New York City with the Ft. Hood trial going on, with two wars going on. We don't need to give additional propaganda to the terrorists for recruitment purposes?
LEMON: And I want to just make it very clear. The pictures that we were showing were from Abu Ghraib, the abuse there, and we're not talking about Guantanamo Bay detainees.
I want to bring in now David Frakt. David is he with the ACLU. I introduced him before. What do you think of this decision not to release these photographs?
VOICE OF DAVID FRAKT, WESTERN STATE LAW SCHOOL: I think it's tragic error. First of all, it's not just the 21 photos that Secretary Gates is determined will not be released, but he actually issued a blanket order that no photos relating to the treatment of detainees for the entire global war on terror will be released.
And so that's really grossly overbroad, and it's very anti- democratic what we're doing. I mean, basically the theory is that the more damaging the information, the more inflammatory - it's likely to be, the more justified we are in keeping it secret. And democracy is really not strengthened by concealing evidence of wrong doing, so I fundamentally disagree with what Secretary Gates is doing.
LEMON: You know, I'm going to go back to - it sounds like a very simple answer but it's true - go back to my childhood. My mom would say why can't I see that, and she would say there are some things that you just shouldn't see. You don't believe that?
FRAKT: No. I don't think we have anything to fear from, you know, what our troops have done in the past. We have to confront our own misdeeds. We have to be transparent and we have to hold people accountable, and that's ultimately how we're going to -
RAISER: If I can get in here.
LEMON: Go ahead, Steve.
RAISER: I don't think that that is the issue here. I mean, what is the benefit of this if we're going to make them public? I mean, there's ways we can look into abuse other than posting these pictures all throughout the internet so the terrorists can get a hold of them and make posters out of them.
I mean, we can do internal investigations. We can hold a congressional investigation. There could be in camera proceedings so that the judge can look at the photographs and determine whether or not they're going to be -
LEMON: Describe some of the scenes or what is happening in the photographs without releasing them?
RAISER: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this is nothing other than a propaganda. What I can't understand is where the ACLU is come off saying that there's some great benefit by publicizing these things to the world. I don't see it.
LEMON: OK. Go ahead, I'll let you reply. Go ahead.
FRAKT: Sure. The benefit is in letting the Americans know what crimes have been done in our name and holding people accountable. The idea that we can do it without the release of the photos has been proven to be false. The Obama administration that simply refused to look into the abuses that have occurred in the past.
LEMON: And David, you bring up a good point. Because the president has wavered on this issue. At first he was saying that he would release the photographs, and then he back tracked saying we're not going to do it for the safety of the troops. Is that a real concern to you?
FRAKT: Well, as a military officer, I'm certainly concerned about the safety of the troops but I think our opponents already have sufficient motivation and this is not - it's really a red herring. It's an excuse to not release the photos because he knows that if the photos are released, there will be pressure to go and look at the abuses of the past and he is very much about going forward and now looking back. But our position is that we can't go forward until you account for the past.
LEMON: Hang on, both of you. I'll give you the last word here, Steve. But we got to make it quick here. You know, I'm not in a war zone so I don't know. Is that a legitimate concern, the safety of the troops?
RAISER: If you are asking me -
LEMON: Yes.
RAISER: The answer is absolutely yes, of course. And it's not just the troops. It's also the civilians back home as well. There's a vested interest. As long as this war is continuing, it's a danger to release those photos. Absolutely.
LEMON: All right. David Frakt and Steve Raiser, thank you so much. We appreciate it.
FRAKT: My pleasure.
RAISER: Thank you.
LEMON: Imagine living life in what's called IED alley. We'll show you some troops in Afghanistan who have to travel it nearly every single day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. A lot of you have been weighing in, and we got a lot of people really fired up. So let's hope that these are presentable. I've looked through most of them here. So here's what Catawu said "we cannot remain ignorant of abuses done to prisoners. If we choose to ignore, we will be abused, and no one will see it. Survanio said "Don, they might as well release the photos. It is no worse than how slaves were treated."
Another one from Catawu, says "GOP afraid torture will come out? I think that's why they're afraid of everything, the Illinois prison and New York trial. Trying the terrorists in New York tells the world, ha. We will not be bullied by this terrorism nonsense. Any point of view on those who agreed to criticism. (INAUDIBLE) you're not watching the right show. We've been talking about people who are in favor of it and we got the president's response from Shanghai just a moment ago.
So thank you so much for your feedback. We're going to read a little bit a little bit later on in this broadcast.
You know it's called an IED alley where there's always a constant fear of an explosion. Some troops in Afghanistan had to travel it nearly everyday. We're going to take you there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: September 11, 2001. Do you remember where you were? I'm sure most people do as we watch the horrifying images unfold on our television, or for those who were involved. That is the reason that we're talking about this issue, about Guantanamo Bay.
That's what started our invasion in Afghanistan. And we're talking about the troops in Afghanistan now who are facing very, very real dangers because of this. Life in a war zone. Unpredictable and always, always dangerous. What about when you're potentially driving through hell?
Our Chris Lawrence rode shotgun in a Humvee with a group of soldiers who know all about that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soldiers know militants like to hide bombs in the irrigation canals so the convoy stops a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let's go.
LAWRENCE: We're only in this Humvee because two weeks ago a bomb exploded and damaged the (INAUDIBLE). It happened on this road but some of the soldiers still get sick of the slow pace.
STAFF SGT. ANDREW JENNINGS, U.S. ARMY: I could get out and try to search every covert and take five days to get anywhere and possibly get blown up myself or maybe just go across and get blown up in a truck.
LAWRENCE: Out of Kandahar, we roll into a pretty remote desert. Dust everywhere and the ride just keeps getting rougher.
JENNINGS: I try to follow roads in these narrow places like where we're going right now, this is, you know, where they want to put them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: I talked with Chris Lawrence about what he learned from the troops he was embedded with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAWRENCE: These soldiers and the Marines as well, they don't know whether that roadside bomb is going to hit two feet in front of them, two miles down the road. They don't know if it's going to hit in two weeks or two months. That kind of just non-stop pressure. You know, you think back home, how many times do you get on the train or the bus or get into your car, drive to work, drive an errand, pick up the kids.
You don't even think about that. You're thinking about a million other things as you make that drive. You know, these troops are dealing with this feeling of never knowing where that bomb is coming from. And I think that is why the IEDs can just be so devastating on morale. Because the troops that I talked to feel like it is very hard to figure out what they can do to stop it. They hit the front car. They hit the back car in the convoy. They hit the middle. There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it. And it can just be terribly frustrating for some of those troops to deal with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: CNN's Chris Lawrence embedded with our troops in Afghanistan. We're taking your feedback tonight. Here's one quick one here. President Obama had better get his butt in gear about Afghan war troop surge. Must make decision now to get more troops in there. More of your feedback after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: And I've ordered the full resources of the government will go to help the victims and their families and to conduct a full scale investigation to hunt down and define those folks who committed this act. Terrorism against our nation -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was President George W. Bush back on September 11th, 2001. We have been taking your feedback tonight as we have been talking about the war in Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay detainees and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and others being tried in New York City for their alleged involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Let's get some of your feedback here. And you guys have been lighting this up.
I agree with Robert Gates, the decision not to release those pics. Don't need to give terrorists any more ammo against us. That's from (INAUDIBLE).
This one is about President Obama needs to make a decision on troops. ACLU needs to leave well enough alone. They are just upsetting the families who lost loved ones on 9/11 even more.
HaveGone said very depressing to ponder just how much damage Bush-Cheney administration did across the globe. Wish them eternal insomnia.
Catawu said we cannot remain ignorant of abuses done to prisoners. If we choose to ignore, we will be abused and no one will see it.
Survanio said Don, they might as well release the photos. It is no worse than how slaves were treated. We read that one a little bit earlier.
And so we appreciate your feedback here on CNN. We hope you learn something tonight as we flush out this story about what's happening at Guantanamo Bay and the possibility of those detainees, some of them being sent to Illinois to a small town in a slightly used prison, we should say. A prison that is not filled to capacity there.
I'm Don Lemon at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. I'll see you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.
Meantime, "State of the Union" with John King begins right now.
