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CNN Tonight
Cancer Controversy; Obama and China
Aired November 16, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, millions of American women told to forget what they know about breast cancer screening, a controversial new report on the effectiveness of mammograms and breast self exams.
A critical day for President Obama on his first ever visit to China, he calls China a strategic partner. Will the budding superpower play fair on free markets and free speech?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the United States information (INAUDIBLE). I actually think that that makes our democracy stronger.
ROBERTS: The economic challenge at home. Millions without work as the country struggles to recover -- tonight, new hope for some Americans looking for a job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Think there's a downside (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lift off of space shuttle Atlantis.
ROBERTS: NASA sends the shuttle Atlantis off to the International Space Station, but will the future of space exploration belong to the private sector? Now Mexico's Governor Bill Richardson says the final frontier starts in the New Mexico desert.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT; live from New York here now John Roberts.
ROBERTS: And good evening. Thanks for joining us on CNN TONIGHT.
We begin with important breaking news on breast cancer this evening. A government task force which took a hard long look at the evidence has released a new series of recommendations tonight. Most women in their 40's should not get routine mammograms for early detection of breast cancer, according to the task force.
Over the age of 50, most women should only get mammograms every two years, not every year. Also, the task force reports that breast self-exams do absolutely no good and that most women should not be taught how to do them, but there is controversy obviously surrounding these new guidelines.
Roughly 15 percent of women in their 40's detect breast cancer through mammography and how many woman have detected a lump through a self exam and gone on to see their doctor because of it, so why the change now? Joining me is Dr. Freya Schnabel. She is the director of Breast Surgery at NYU Langone Medical Center (ph) -- Doctor, thanks for being with us tonight. First of all, what do you make of these new recommendations from the task force because they go against everything we have been told over the last decade.
DR. FREYA SCHNABEL, DIR. OF BREAST SURGERY, NYU LANGONE MED. CTR.: I think we have to remember that these recommendations were based on a very complicated mathematical analysis of breast cancer incidents and screening behaviors and outcomes. Not on data gotten from real people and real outcomes. Now the recommendations were made based on this analysis that showed that if we did mammograms every two years instead of every year, we would get about 81 percent of the benefit of screening. So that's 81 percent of the benefit for 50 percent of the mammograms and that was the basis of the change in recommendations by the task force.
ROBERTS: So there's a lot of confusion out there now because this task force has changed recommendations, saying for most women in their 40's, mammograms, in that time period, don't really do any good because they lead to a lot of false positives, a lot of treatment that's unnecessary. Meantime, the American Cancer Society is saying, we're not changing our guidelines. We still believe that women in their 40's should get a breast exam and not every two years, as the task force has recommended for women in their 50's, but every year. So who do we believe?
SCHNABEL: I think the American Cancer Society is trying very hard to make sure that we don't lose all that we've gained in the last decades with improvement in breast cancer survival and a reduction in the mortality from disease. And none of us want to go back to that era when women came to diagnosis with large masses in their breasts and advanced disease and so on, so the American Cancer Society's statement is a recognition that whatever we do and whatever we change, we don't want to lose what we've gained.
ROBERTS: All right so who do we believe here? Do we believe that women in their 40's believe the task force and say, no need for a mammogram until I'm 50, or do we go with the American Cancer Society guidelines that the day a woman turns 40, she should have her first mammogram and have one every year after that?
SCHNABEL: I think that this really urges us all to do careful breast cancer risk assessment because the recommendations from the task force are not directed at high-risk women. So number one, anybody with family history or high-risk conditions should not really think that these guidelines apply to them. And that's an important consideration.
On the other hand, for women who are in their 40's, we also recognize mammography is not a terribly sensitive tool and maybe this makes us recognize that we can't rely on it overly much. We should start thinking about what else we can do for early detection in that age group.
ROBERTS: So a lot of questions remaining about mammography and then a lot of other questions, repercussions coming out of this task force report such as will insurance continue to pay for mammography for women in their 40's and we'll answer some of those questions a little later on. Thanks for being with us.
At the top of the show we'll bring you back a little bit later on because much more on this breaking news on breast cancer coming your way, prevention and testing. Dr. Schnabel will join us again later on in the program along with Jenny Luray. She is the president of the Susan G. Komen Center for the Cure Advocacy Alliance -- Doctor, thanks. We'll see you again soon.
Turning now to President Obama's trip to China, the president said the two world super powers should share the burden of leadership and tackle the pressing issues that are facing the world. But the message requires a bit of a political balancing act. President Obama has been full of compliments for the country's rich history and economic achievements, but there have also be several reminders about China's poor record on human rights, its censorship and its impact on the American job market. Ines Ferre has our report this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Obama hopes to return from his trip to Asia with good news for American workers. In Shanghai, he spoke about trade between the U.S. and China.
OBAMA: This trade could create even more jobs on both sides of the Pacific while allowing our people to enjoy a better quality of life and as demand becomes more balanced, it can lead to even broader prosperity.
FERRE: Obama hopes to convince China to buy more American products, creating more U.S. jobs as unemployment hovers just over 10 percent.
ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: What President Obama needs to do is to convince his Chinese partners that it's time for them to become a responsible trading partner and that means becoming a much more open economy and also ending this manipulation of their currency.
FERRE: The U.S. believes Beijing keeps its currency artificially low, making Chinese goods cheaper here and American products more expensive in China. Since 2000, the U.S. has lost some five million manufacturing jobs, many of them to Asia.
PROF. PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: China undervalues its currency and subsidizes its exports. That's costing manufacturing jobs as it sends us a lot of products that really could be made right here more effectively. That increases employment in China, but it cost us a lot of jobs in the United States.
FERRE: Even though China's is the biggest foreign holder of U.S. debt, some say Beijing is just as dependent on the U.S.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "THE COMING COLLAPOSE OF CHINA": 2008, 93 percent of China's overall trade surplus related to sales to the United States, they have an export dominated economy, which means their economy and their political system is dependent on selling us things. And you know that especially gives us a lot of leverage because their trade practices are not compliant with their World Trade Organization obligations.
FERRE: U.S. trade deficit with China in September rose to its highest level in almost a year to $22 billion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FERRE: And both countries have said they don't want a trade war. For the U.S. the traditional path out of a recession has been manufacturing based job creation, but that has proven to be increasingly difficult because of its relationship with China -- John.
ROBERTS: Ines Ferre thanks for that.
Chinese officials are concerned about the stories and the images being reported by foreign media during this visit. Two CNN correspondents today came face to face with the effort to control the story. Senior White House correspondent Ed Henry tried to interview students at Shanghai's town hall meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He was just telling me about what question he wanted to ask President Obama.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: OK, he was just was telling us about...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: So government handlers told our Ed Henry to go sit down and correspondent Emily Chang had her report interrupted. Chinese officials didn't like her featuring a popular bootleg souvenir t-shirt showing President Obama in a red army uniform. The t-shirt is called Obamow (ph).
President Obama today said the United States and China carry the burden of leadership on divisive issues like climate change and nuclear weapons. But economic and trade issues are casting tensions over President Obama's talks with President Hu. John Vause joins us tonight from Beijing and John, what's likely to top the president's agenda over the next 24 hours?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, when President Obama goes into that meeting later today here in Beijing with President Hu, he's looking for progress on issues like climate change, how to deal with North Korea's illicit nuclear program, Iran's nuclear ambitions. He also wants to have some kind of progress on dealing with China's currency, the yuan.
As we heard earlier, the American side believes that it's undervalued, giving exporters this unfair advantage. The Chinese though have their own economic concerns, most notably the borrowing by the U.S. government, the value of the U.S. dollar, because that's tied to U.S. Treasury bills which the Chinese government has billions, hundreds of billions of dollars invested in.
Each time the U.S. dollar goes down in value that means their investments go down as well. They're worried about the size of the budget deficit. I've been told by those close to the U.S. side that the Chinese are even concerned about Mr. Obama's health care plan. How much is that going to cost, how much more borrowing will the U.S. need to fund that, so from the Chinese side, it's primarily economic issues, from the Obama side, some other global geopolitical issues as well -- John.
ROBERTS: Is it likely John that anything substantive in terms of solutions to those thorny problems will happen during the next 24 hours?
VAUSE: You know this agenda for both these leaders is so long and so complicated and it's taken such a long time for these countries to develop this economic entanglement that it's going to take an even longer time to get out of. That's what we're being told. We're also told that basically this is now the sixth time these two leaders have sat down face to face. Don't expect any hard outcomes; just expect an ongoing conversation from this point on -- John.
ROBERTS: All right, John Vause for us in Beijing tonight -- John, thanks so much.
And coming up, we're going to have much more on President Obama's trip to China. Two leading experts on U.S.-China relations will join me and why one town wants suspected terrorists in its own backyard. We'll have a special report coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: In North Carolina, the body of a 5-year-old girl whose mother was accused of offering her for sex has been found in North Carolina. The body of Shaniya Davis was found off a heavily wooded road near Sanford, North Carolina today. The girl's mother, Antoinette Davis, reported Shaniya missing last week. Davis faces human trafficking and felony child abuse charges. A man who was seen in a hotel surveillance video with Shaniya was charged with kidnapping. They have not yet been charged with her murder.
In Chicago, investigators say the death of the president of the Board of Education was a suicide. Michael Scott's body was pulled from the Chicago River early this morning. He died of a self- inflicted gunshot wound to the head. Scott, a long time city leader, served on the Chicago 2016 Olympic Committee. In August, Scott disclosed that he was subpoenaed to testify in an investigation into possible influence pedaling in school admissions.
Federal and state officials toured a prison in northern Illinois today that could house detainees from Guantanamo Bay. Opponents of the proposal say moving suspected terrorists there puts the community at risk, but Illinois officials and some residents say the prison is just the economic boost that northern Illinois needs. Our Elaine Quijano is there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the maximum security Thomson Correctional Center in northwest Illinois federal officials from a host of agencies poured in representing the Departments of Homeland Security, Defense and Justice and the U.S Bureau of Prisons. The officials got a close-up look at the 1,600- cell jail that an administration official says is the quote, "leading option to one day house dozens of Guantanamo terrorism suspects." On site, the Bureau of Prisons director was more coy.
HARLEY LAPPIN, U.S. BUREAU OF PRISONS: This is in the early stages of assessment. There are a number of options being considered. This is just one of those options.
QUIJANO: Tara Kleckner can see the Thomson prison from her backyard. She understands the security concerns about the increased threat that would come with having terror suspects in her hometown, but she insists the community's 600 residents deserve a chance at the prison jobs that would also come if the detainees are moved here.
TARA KLECKNER, THOMSON RESIDENT: If it can boost our economy and give our people the opportunity to prosper and make more money and make a better living for their families, I think the risk is worth it.
QUIJANO: Both the Democratic senator and governor of Illinois agree.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: We have a chance to bring more than 2,000 good paying jobs with benefits to this region.
QUIJANO: Yet Illinois House Republicans like Congressman Donald Manzullo whose district includes Thomson warn that bringing terror suspects to U.S. soil would invite a terrorist attack.
REP. DONALD MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: That's all we need in northern Illinois is to be known as the Gitmo north, the place that replaced Gitmo.
QUIJANO: While Thomson resident Randy Stricker (ph) likes the idea of jobs, he wonders at what cost.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) it makes you nervous, yes.
QUIJANO (on camera): Right now, there are only 200 minimum security inmates housed at the Thomson Prison, but the administration said the site would likely go through some changes, converting it to a prison that would be quote, "beyond supermax".
Elaine Quijano, CNN, Thomson, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: And coming up, President Obama's bow in Japan, diplomatic move or did he go too far? And much more on the breaking news story on breast cancer prevention and testing. Two leading authorities on breast cancer join us tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Pictures of President Obama bowing to the Japanese emperor while in Tokyo have touched a nerve with critics. The Obama administration says the gesture was merely diplomatic protocol, but some on the right are attacking the president for what they say was an unnecessary show of deference by a U.S. president to a foreign leader -- Jill Dougherty reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It wasn't just a nod of the head. President Obama meeting the Japanese emperor and empress bows deeply and shakes hands. The blogosphere explode. Ignorant and treasonous one site thunders, how low will he go, the "Los Angeles Times" blog asks. The YouTube video is getting massive hits. Another site shows how other world leaders choreograph their meetings with the emperor. Conservative pundits say they're disgusted an American president would bow to anyone.
BRUCE KLINGER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Even within Japanese culture, it was an excessive bow and it plays into the image of Obama being overly obsequious during his overseas trips.
DOUGHERTY: The State Department claims the president was simply following protocol.
IAN KELLY, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I think it's a natural response of the president. The first time he meets the -- the Japanese head of state, to show a sign of respect.
DOUGHERTY: The emperor, once revered as nearly a God now is just a figure head since Japan's surrender at the end of World War II. Critics point to how previous presidents did it. George W. Bush, no bow, same for Vice President Dick Cheney, Richard Nixon, a slight bow. Mr. Obama's body language got him in hot water previously when he appeared to make an awkward bow to the Saudi king. His press secretary had to some tap dancing on that.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No, I think he bent over with both -- to shake -- with both hands to shake his hands, so I don't...
OBAMA: (INAUDIBLE)
DOUGHERTY: Nevertheless, Barack Obama's popularity is boosting the U.S. image abroad, according to a July international poll by the non partisan Pew Research Center. Under George Bush, only 37 percent of respondents said the U.S. would do the right thing in world affairs, 74 percent said it would under Barack Obama, so far though no polls on whether bowing was the right thing to do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOUGHERTY: And we've been talking with the State Department about this and on their Web site they do say that staff from the Office of the Chief Protocol accompanies the president on his official trips abroad, but they're not saying whether anyone advised the president specifically on this bow -- John.
ROBERTS: All right, Jill Dougherty for us tonight -- Jill, thanks so much.
When we return President Obama in China, he tells the Chinese that more is gained when great powers cooperate. How will the president be received? And we'll have more on our breaking news story that could dramatically change the way women screen for breast cancer. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT live from New York.
ROBERTS: More now on our breaking news story tonight on the controversial new guidelines for breast cancer screening. A new government report recommends that most women should not get a mammogram until the age of 50. For years, women were encouraged to get screened starting at age 40.
With us again is Dr. Freya Schnabel. She is the director of Breast Surgery at New York University's Langone Medical Center. And joining us now from Dallas is Jennifer Luray. She is the president of the Susan G. Komen for the Cure Advocacy Alliance.
And Jennifer, since you're just joining us tonight let me ask you first of all what you think of these recommendations from a government task force that throw out everything that we've been doing for the past decade and that is that at the age of 40 a woman gets her first mammogram and gets one every year from then on. They're saying now don't start until the age of 50. There's no reason to for most women.
JENNY LURAY, SUSAN G. KOMEN FOR THE CURE ADV. ALLIANCE: John, first of all, thank you for inviting me here this evening. We are concerned about these task force's recommendations. However, believe it or not, there's more agreement than disagreement. Even the task force said that women ages 40 to 49, that mammograms do save lives in those women. Komen is sticking with our guidelines and our recommendations, which is that women ages 40 and above should continue to get an annual mammogram.
(CROSSTALK)
LURAY: We looked at the same data that the task force did and we came to different conclusions.
ROBERTS: So how do you come to a different conclusion than the task force because the American Cancer Society as well is saying we're sticking with our guidelines, which is women in their 40's should get a mammogram every year. And we should also point out for women at home that the task force is now saying women in their 50's should only get a mammogram every two years instead of every year, so why do you come to different conclusions?
LURAY: Well John, I think what's really important to remember again is that there's more agreement than disagreement. Every time -- every few years, there's a report that comes out and women get confused and you know what? They don't get screened. They don't get their mammograms and mammograms save lives. That's where the agreement is. The agreement is that mammography while not perfect, is a pretty decent tool and that women who -- women should be screened.
ROBERTS: Right. Dr. Schnabel, we should point out again that you're a breast surgeon so you see women who definitely know that they have breast cancer, but what would you recommend to women in their 40's? Would you say go with the task force guidelines or would you say go with the Komen guidelines, go with the American Cancer Society guidelines. Start at the age of 40.
SCHNABEL: I think first of all, we have to remember that these task force guidelines are not applicable to women who are at increased risk for breast cancer because of either family history or other high risk conditions, so they are really out of this analysis and they should continue to be screened really actively. For women in their 40's who are at baseline risks, I think some of this has to do with a consideration of the tradeoffs that these guidelines represent. They got 81 percent of the benefit for 50 percent of the mammograms. That wasn't 100 percent of the benefit. It was only 81 percent.
ROBERTS: OK, so that's a lot of analysis, but what would you tell a patient? What would you tell the average women in their 40's to do?
SCHNABEL: I would tell a woman in her 40's that if she is really concerned about maximizing her potential for early detection, that she should continue with being screened yearly and that is supported by the American Cancer Society and by Komen. But for a woman who feels that she is not concerned about the possibility of being diagnosed later than she otherwise would have, then she can be screened every other year relying on these guidelines.
ROBERTS: And Jennifer, another question comes to mind. And we have seen the health insurance industry ring in on this, as well as the government when it comes to Medicare that at this point they see no reason to change their guidelines for reimbursement for mammograms among women in their 40's, but are you concerned that with efforts to cut costs, efforts to keep health care costs from spiraling out of control that they may say let's take a look at these task force guidelines. Maybe if they say it's not necessary, then it's not necessary for us to reimburse. LURAY: John, we are concerned about that and you know what else we are concerned about -- that currently one-third of American women don't have access to regular screening. That's about 20 million women who are not getting screened at all, so the task force recommendations really concern frequency and timing, but let's not forget the 20 million women who aren't being screened at all. That's also an issue around access to health care and access to insurance reimbursement.
ROBERTS: Doctor, what are the current statistics with women and breast cancer? How many women will contract breast cancer in any given year? How many will die from it?
SCHNABEL: The statistics say about 180,000 American women get breast cancer every year and in excess of 40,000 women a year will die of the disease. So it's a big public health concern for us.
ROBERTS: In your practice, how many women do you see with breast cancer in their 40s?
SCHNABEL: I think about 15 percent of women with breast cancer are in their 40s. I see a lot of high-risk women, so I do see a great deal of breast cancer in the 40s. I think the potential for early detection is certainly there, mammography is not perfect as we just heard. That's true, but we don't want women in the 40s to neglect something that could potentially be a lifesaver.
ROBERTS: All right. So what's your message tonight Dr. Schnabel for women in their 40s looking at this and saying, what do I do?
SCHNABEL: First, careful breast cancer risk assessment. If you're at high-risk, this change in guidelines does not apply to you. Second of all, if you are baseline risk, have a real conversation with your doctor about continuing with your screening or potentially changing, but still continue to be screened. Don't loose sight of it all together.
ROBERTS: And Jennifer Luray, quickly there was one other issue here the task force addressed and that was breast self-exams. They do no good, don't even teach women how to do them. What do you say to that?
LURAY: We look at a breast self-exam as part of overall breast health. It's just one tool. A woman should be examined by her doctor every year. A clinical breast exam is key as well as an annual mammogram.
ROBERTS: Jennifer Luray and Dr. Schnabel, thanks so much for being with us tonight to try to straighten this out. I know that a lot of women are going to have a lot of questions as a result of these task force recommendations. Really appreciate you coming in.
Coming up, President Obama tells China the two countries carry quote, a burden of leadership and they must work together to solve the world's critical problems.
And new hope for a homeless man who's story we brought you last month, helped by a CNN viewer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Just what does President Obama have to gain or lose from his trip to China? A new CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll finds that 71 percent of Americans believe that China is an economic threat to the United States. Earlier, I spoke with Niall Ferguson. He's a professor of history at Harvard University, also the author of the book, "The Ascent of Money," and Gordon Chang, the author of "The Coming Collapse of China." I asked them if people are right to believe that China is an economic threat and if anything of significance will happen on this presidential trip to change that opinion.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PROF. NIALL FERGUSON, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: China is as much a partner as a rival economically to the United States. I've spoken about Chimerica, a single economy where the two are almost merged. The Chinese are engaged in a kind of vendor financed relationship with the U.S. where they lend us money to buy their cheap manufactures. I think one reasons that Americans worry is that they see for the first time in over a century the possibility of another economy could be as big as that of the United States. Goldman Sachs says that by 2027, China's gross domestic product could equal that of the United States. And the other thing of course is that it is almost impossible for American manufacturers to compete with Chinese manufacturers in world markets because Chinese goods are just way cheaper.
ROBERTS: Not if Gordon Chang has anything to do with it that will never happen because he has predicted the coming collapse of the system of government as well as the Chinese economy. What do you think about all of this?
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": He's absolutely right that the two economies are very close, but we've got to remember that with the global downturn these two economies are actually delinking, trade volumes will be down this year substantially. That means the Chinese will buy less of our debt. This is going to have geopolitical consequences because we're going to see fewer and fewer reasons to cooperate with each other as we start to pull away on the economic front. China's been more assertive recently doing things for instance in North Korea and Iran to buck up those two regimes. That's really going to be a problem in Washington as we get down to a very difficult situation with Tehran and Pyongyang.
ROBERTS: Another interesting finding in our poll, when asked whether China was a potential market for U.S. companies or unfair competition, 67 percent of people said it was unfair competition. Niall, do you see any opportunities for American companies in China other than using it as a base for manufacturing?
FERGUSON: It's difficult because they have pegged their currency to the U.S. dollar. That means that even if the dollar weakens relative to other currencies, which it currently is doing, it's down somewhere in the region of 15 percent against other currencies, it doesn't weaken against the Chinese currency, which means we don't have a competitive advantage from dollar depreciation in the Chinese market. That's a problem because the Chinese economy is about the world's fastest growing right now. If President Obama had one wish, I suspect the wish would be that the Chinese would break this and allow their currency to begin to appreciate because at the moment it's a highly artificial state of affairs. If you left this to market forces, if the Chinese didn't keep intervening to keep their own currency weak, then you would see a significant strengthening of the Chinese currency and then American exporters would have a look-in in China.
CHANG: I don't think Beijing is going to relent on the currency because their export volumes are declining and the reason why they peg their currency is to help their exporters. This is not only an issue with Washington and Brussels because we've been trying to rebalance this for a better part of a decade. It's also becoming an issue in East Asia and around the world. The Chinese now are becoming very defensive about this. Just a couple of days ago, one of their senior officials starting blaming the U.S. for loose monetary policy when the real issue is R&B.
ROBERTS: In addition though Gordon, this administration hasn't been as strong with the Chinese government in terms of delinking the currency. The Bush administration made that a central point of the relations with China. Why isn't this administration doing is same thing?
CHANG: Well, I think they will get around to that because it's trying to talk to Beijing because it wants to see if it can actually have an effect whereas prior administrations didn't. I think the Chinese are going to be tough on that and I think that essentially Obama is going to do something like he did with the tire prices. In September he had those surge tariffs on tires which took everybody by surprise. I think we're going to see more and more of these trade irritants and currency is going to be at the top of the list.
ROBERTS: In this what you call partnership Chimerica Niall between the United States and China, who really has the power here? Who has the upper hand? We hear stories about China, contacting the administration to say tell us about this health care bill and how much is it going to cost and how much more debt are you going to take on because they are, to a large degree, America's bank. They are the biggest foreign holders of U.S. debt, but at the same time, the bulk of China's trade surplus is because of consumers here in America and as Gordon Chang told me earlier today, if you're a bank or if you're a company, do you want to be indebted to the bank for a little bit of money or a lot of money because if you're indebted for a lot of money, then they have an interest in your success. Who's got the power here?
FERGUSON: The last decade up until 2007 and the crisis of 2008 was based really on the leveraged U.S. consumer, consumers putting on more debt to finance their consumption and that isn't going to resume anytime soon. The Chinese are beginning to find that other markets are in fact more attractive than the U.S. market. At the same time, they are in a position, because they are an extremely important source of finance for the U.S. federal government, to make the criticisms that they've repeatedly made throughout the past year, I think it's particularly striking that almost before President Obama had gotten off his plane, there was this criticism of American monetary policy being excessively loose. The Chinese look at the deficit and they see a trillion dollars every year for a decade being borrowed by the U.S. treasury. At one point, they were accounting for about 75 percent of all the financing of U.S. government borrowing, they feel entitled to complain. It makes the relationship that of a rather bad marriage, a marriage that's on the rocks. In the good times, when Americans were borrowing and consuming, the Chinese were exporting like crazy, this was a happy marriage. Now I'd say it was a marriage on the rocks and here I think I agree with Gordon. We're going to see not so much a decoupling, but conceivably, a divorce that breaks Chimerica apart.
ROBERTS: One other big issue here that we're not seeing pressed as strongly as we have in past administrations Gordon is on human rights. 1995, his first lady Hillary Clinton went to China and said women's rights are human rights. Earlier this year, she was saying what we really need to focus on here is the economy, climate change. Human rights seems to have taken a backseat in the relations between the U.S. and China. Is that the right course of action for this administration to be taking do you think?
CHANG: I think it's absolutely the wrong course of action because the Chinese perceive our not pressing human rights as a sign of weakness. If they think we're weak, they're not going to cooperate on the great issues of the day like Iran, North Korea, climate change, all the rest of them. I think it's important for the United States and it's not just a question about the right thing to do for the Chinese people. It's a question about the security of our country because the Chinese political system doesn't rest on the consent of the government. It rests on nationalism. You can see all of this going the wrong way.
ROBERTS: Some big meetings between the president and Chinese officials over the next 24 hours. We'll be watching them closely here on CNN. Gordon Chang, Niall Ferguson, great to talk to you this evening. Thanks so much.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
CHANG: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Coming up next, good news on the economy. And new hope for one struggling worker as he looks for a job. We'll update you on this man's story.
And NASA's space shuttle "Atlantis" blasts off but is the future of space travel a private enterprise? New Mexico's Governor Bill Richardson will tell us why he's placing a big bet on a new space partnership in the New Mexico desert.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Some good news on the economy, retail sales jumped 1.4 percent in October. That number was better than expected. Economists remain uncertain about what to expect this holiday season.
And General Motors says it is now doing well enough to start repaying the billions of dollars in loans from the U.S. government starting in December. The company lost more than $1 billion since it emerged from bankruptcy this summer. That was better than expected.
Earlier this month, CNN brought you to story of a recently homeless Los Angeles man named Tony. He had exhausted all of his resources as he tried unsuccessfully to find work. Now, thanks to a CNN viewer, Tony Briones has new hope for what his future might hold. Our Casey Wian has his story.
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CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When we first met Tony Briones nearly two weeks ago, he was living in his van, spending morning unsuccessfully looking for find odd jobs at this Los Angeles day labor center.
TONY BRIONES, JOB SEEKER: I drive here every morning, I hope and pray that I can get some kind of work, something going on to make extra money.
WIAN: The 54-year-old father of two, grandfather of five spent 30 years as a warehouse worker and in construction.
BRIONES: I was on a ten-foot ladder and I was running hoses for the gas line. The ladder went one way, I went the other way and I messed up my shoulder.
WIAN: Briones says he's filled out hundreds of job applications with no success. He's married with a severely disabled adult child at his former home yet he no longer feels right living there.
BRIONES: It's not for your kids and grand kids to ask for money and you don't got it. Your wife got it, that's not -- I mean, she's trying to do what she can. But -- excuse me. It's not right. You know? I want to help support my family. I can't. That sucks. Excuse me. Sorry about that.
WIAN: Today, Briones has new hope thanks to Melissa Wolfe, a CNN viewer who volunteers at Chrysalis, a non-profit organization helping the homeless and people recently released from prison find jobs.
MELISSA WOLFE, ATTORNEY & VOLUNTEER: He's a perfect example of somebody who can be assisted by Chrysalis. He's homeless. He has motivation. He really just wants to be given a chance at employment. When I saw that piece, I real wanted to introduce him to the program.
WIAN: Wolfe helped Briones update his resume. Monday he arrived for his first day of job training classes.
BRIONES: I felt like a baby just took his first step or a little kid that's fell off the bike and you put him back up. That's how I felt like, Like a just fell off the bike and they picked me up.
WIAN: Chrysalis says the recession has boosted the number of people using its job placement services by 40 percent since last year.
MARK LORANGER, CEO, CHRYSALIS: The types of clients have changed as well. We're seeing more clients that have what we call underemployed. Where they may be holding multiple jobs to make ends meet or they may not be getting a full 40 hours a week so they're looking for something better.
WIAN: For Briones, any job would be better than what he's endured. Last year, Chrysalis says more than 1500 people or 80 percent of its clients found work at an average wage of nearly $10 an hour. One man who had nearly lost hope now believes he'll be working again soon.
BRIONES: Bless you guys who are making my life more shiny again. Downside's over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The people at Chrysalis say they are optimistic Briones has the skills and experience to help him find a job and they also continue to be busier than ever even though many economists believe the recession has eased. Those at the bottom of the economic ladder are usually the last to benefit during a recovery John.
ROBERTS: A terrific story there Casey and all it takes is one person to help out another. Casey Wian for us tonight, thanks so much.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Campbell Brown. Hi, Campbell.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi John Roberts. Tonight, we're going to talk about the dangers of course, of putting the alleged 9/11 master mind on trial here in the U.S. As you know John, he's going to be prosecuted just a few blocks from New York's ground zero and that decision has sparked a lot of debate over potential security risk. We'll look at what's being done right now to try to keep the city safe in preparation for that trial.
Also, Sarah Palin's new book. Is 2012 really not on her radar? You're going to hear from her coming up.
Plus, the death of privacy. Our special investigation shows just how much personal information about you, your family, just about everybody you know is right on the web right now. John?
ROBERTS: You think that would frighten a lot of people. Campbell, thanks. We'll see you at the top of the hour.
Still ahead, the space shuttle "Atlantis" blasts off on one of its last missions.
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ROBERTS: It was a picture perfect liftoff today for the space shuttle "Atlantis." The shuttle is delivering crucial spare parts to the international space station. The 11-day mission will also include three space walks and the installation of two platforms. The entire shuttle fleet will be retired next year.
The future of space travel may not lie with NASA but with private companies. The state of New Mexico wants to be a big part of it as well. New Mexico has committed $300 million to build space port America and bring new jobs to the high desert. Bill Tucker reports.
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BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Out here in the vast desert of southern New Mexico is where America's space program was born with pioneers like Joe Kitinger and Robert Goddard. It is here that some believe it is being reborn. New Mexico is investing almost $300 million in a project known as Spaceport America, an airport for commercial space exploration.
STEVE LANDEENE, EXEC. DIRECTOR, SPACEPORT AMERICA: It's about being a visionary and I think of the state of New Mexico back from the early days of Goddard, Von Braun, Kitinger, space has always been in the mainstream of what New Mexico has been about. This is one more step.
TUCKER: Virgin Galactic will use Spaceport America to launch its space tourism business offering wealthy clients rides into spaces, carried all off by the White Knight II. Virgin Galactic is the largest private partner in this futuristic and futuristic-looking venture in the desert, committing more than $200 million in technological development. The project broke ground in June, construction contracts have been awarded. Over the next year and a half, the state expects construction will provide between 400 and 600 jobs in the middle of nowhere.
In this field where there is nothing but grassland cactus and the skeet bushes, a year from now there will be a runway, 10,000 feet by 200 feet with the space board hangar located just over there. Virgin Galactic is attention-getting, the headline grabbing stuff. Space tourist rides are a couple years away. Small entrepreneurial companies are already busy changing the face of space exploration.
JERRY LARSON, UP AEROSPACE: I think any time you get entrepreneurs getting into the space business or any business, actually, you'll see some real innovation, because entrepreneurs and companies have to make money with it. So that's what's exciting about this, you start to see small companies like mine that are in this business for money.
WIAN: His company is Up Aerospace, providing low-cost launch facilities as the spaceport to clients like Moog FTS, a company involved in space research and manufacturing. His launch costs are one-tenth of those of a standard facility and there's a fast turnaround time between launches. Which means engineers like Ray Nielson can get way from their desk and on to the launch pad.
RAY NIELSEN, MOOG INDUSTRIES: If you can do ten of these vehicles for what it costs to do one mission on a sophisticated military test range, it's an amazing simplification of your life, just to go out quickly build what you need. TUCKER: Up Aerospace is just one of several small companies with big ambitions and dreams. Lockheed Martin is one of the not so small names at Spaceport America.
Bill Tucker, Spaceport America, New Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: I'm joined now by New Mexico's governor, Bill Richardson. He's live for us in Santa Fe. Governor, $300 million price tag, a lot of taxpayer money from the state of New Mexico going into this. There's been taxes increased in a couple of the neighboring counties and of course space tourism is an unproven business venture at best at a time when you have a $650 million hole in your budget. How much of a roll of the dice is this?
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Well, we believe it's an investment in the future, John. It already is generated 450 construction jobs. We estimate that when the space board is completely built, it's going to be about 2,500 jobs for the state of New Mexico in an area that is in southern part of the state, that is ideal for these kind of launches. The weather, the nearness to military bases, to missile ranges. This is why it's important also for this country. It makes America a leader in space again. We shouldn't just rely on the private sector. Commercial space is going to be part of the future. It will help us with climate change, with new research into renewable energy. It will help us with national security, missing technology, payload technology. Suborbital research and what is most important, John, if you look at the big, big new innovations in aircraft, spaceship II, White Knight II, they've been private sector initiatives. I think it's important that the private sector combine with NASA and our public research into exploration of space.
ROBERTS: White Knight II, spaceship II those are all are ventures from Sir Richard Branson and his virgin group. That will be the centerpiece of spaceport essentially space tourism. Will that be enough to carry you or will you have to rely on other enterprises such as the low orbital launches or other bits of research? Do you need to start launching commercial satellites out of there to start to make money?
RICHARDSON: Yes. We have a new agenda for the spaceport. It's not just space tourism. That's going to be important. We already have 300 people signed up for $200,000 space ventures into space. That's very exciting. But we also will be able to use spaceports for training of astronauts, research, testing and development, suborbital, as you mention. We also will be able to have a lot of educational initiatives; kids, math, science, not just training a future astronaut but also research into payloads, into rockets. These are scientists that will lead America, again, into the technology innovation. It's entrepreneurship, John. I think if we combine the best of private investment with the government, with space research, with NASA, we're beginning to regain our leadership in space, maybe go to mars in a cooperative effort, private commercial with a public sector. And I just think it's very exciting. For our state it's a new industry. It's already paid off in our investment.
ROBERTS: Now, Governor, some of your constituents are skeptical about this. Local ranchers out there near the spaceport are worried the spaceport will eat up all the environment. Environmentalists are concerned about putting a 10,000-foot runway in the middle of the desert. What do you say to those people?
RICHARDSON: Well we say to them that we got to work together. We've worked out a lot of these right of way issues. We worked out water issues; our state water engineers completed an agreement. We're working with ranchers to make sure that their private property is protected. They're sharing in some of the, I think the research that's revitalizing a little town, several counties in New Mexico, as you said, voters have supported this. So we feel good that it's an investment in the future.
ROBERTS: Well, Governor, we wish you a lot of luck. It will be great to see some space -- some space exploration from the private sector. And by the way, a happy belated birthday to you. Thanks for being with us.
RICHARDSON: Thank you.
ROBERTS: All right .
RICHARDSON: Thank you, John.
ROBERTS: And thank you for being with us tonight. We'd love it if you can come back again tomorrow. Up next, "CAMPBELL BROWN."
