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Joy Behar Page
Palin Vs. Oprah
Aired November 16, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Sarah Palin made her much anticipated appearance on Oprah today. It`ll be a ratings bonanza. But was it a shootout at the OK corral? We`ll discuss.
Then Carrie Prejean has been a very busy girl. In addition to writing and promoting a book, she`s made eight sex tapes. I wonder how she finds time to go to church.
And finally, a reality TV couple not named Jon and Kate. Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag will join me to discuss their new book, "How to be Famous", blah, blah, blah. There are a lot of other words. I`ll give you the rest of the title later.
All that and more starts now.
Well, today was like Christmas morning for both conservatives who love her and liberals who love to hate her. Sarah Palin appeared on Oprah for one full hour and touched on everything from Katie Couric to Levi Johnston to "Saturday Night Live."
With me now is Matt Continetti, author of "The Persecution of Sarah Palin;" Randi Rhodes, radio talk show host; and Kinky Friedman, Democratic candidate for Texas governor. How nice to see you all here tonight.
KINKY FRIEDMAN (D), TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Good; it`s great to see you tonight.
RANDI RHODES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi Joy.
BEHAR: Kinky it`s great to meet you, Kinky. I don`t think we`ve met.
FRIEDMAN: Oh it`s a pleasure, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes. Did you see the interview?
RHODES: Yes.
MATT CONTINETTI, AUTHOR, "THE PERSECUTION OF SARAH PALIN": We did.
BEHAR: So give me your take. General idea of it, what did you think?
CONTINETTI: I thought it was a soft focus interview; It`s a human interest story. I don`t think Oprah threw many hard balls at Sarah Palin. They wanted to talk about what the emotions were like. It`s fitting for Oprah. I thought she did great.
BEHAR: What about you, Kinky? Were you attracted to her?
FRIEDMAN: No. She`s a cute little bugger...
BEHAR: She is.
FRIEDMAN: But there is -- and she does a good Tina Fey impersonation. What can I say? I mean, it puts me into a diabetic coma with too much Sarah. I mean, Randi loves me, right? But I just think what`s more interesting is what it says about us.
BEHAR: Well, Oprah asked about the infamous Katie Couric interview, specifically the part where she was asked what she reads. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So I was more like, are you kidding me? Are you really asking me -- to me it was in the context of, do you read? How do you informed your way up there it seemed like she was discovering this nomadic tribe -- a member of a tribe from some Neanderthal cave in Alaska asking me how do you stay in touch with the real world? That`s how I took the question.
So I kind of -- well, I kind of I did, I rolled my eyes and was annoyed with the question. And I know that there were hours of tape that were shot and I would think that those few minutes that were edited together and packaged together and shown to the American public and people only know me from that interview. I don`t blame people for thinking that I was not qualified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, you know, she says that she rolled her eyes when Katie asked her, what do you read? I remember that. She didn`t look like -- unless she was having a stroke, I did not notice her rolling her eyes. She looked like a deer in the headlights, like, what, right?
RHODES: Yes, she did, she did. But you know, she keeps saying that - - first of all, she`s blaming everybody for everything through this whole interview.
BEHAR: Right.
RHODES: You know she blames McCain for not being able to protect her children...
BEHAR: Yes.
RHODES: ... she blames the staffers for not being able to answer the way she wants to answer. She`s blaming -- she`s very good on this show because she`s talking about others. When you ask her about herself, what do you read? What informs your world view?
BEHAR: Yes.
RHODES: She`s like weighing it in her head thinking, well, if I say I read the liberal "The New York Times" I`ll get clobbered. And if I don`t say I read "The New York Times" and...
BEHAR: Well that`s what...
RHODES: ... I`m thinking she wants to say she doesn`t read because that`s her base, nonreaders.
CONTINETTI: You know what`s interesting here to the story -- it`s not her base.
BEHAR: Oh is that`s so. You think so Matthew? You`re part of her base.
RHODES: Yes, he`s the base.
CONTINETTI: What`s interesting -- and I read plenty. I read plenty.
RHODES: He looked like he was a gay man watching Liza Minnelli watching this interview.
CONTINETTI: I was watching, I was a straight man watching Sarah Palin during that interview which is the same thing. But let me tell you, the thing that we`re all talking about here is the Katie Couric interview.
BEHAR: Yes.
CONTINETTI: And it is, well, to me that says is just how important that one interview was in shaping everyone`s perception of Sarah Palin. If she wants to make a future for herself in American politics, she`s going to have to go up against Katie Couric again.
RHODES: Right.
BEHAR: Well, you know, she says that Nicolle Wallace who was in the McCain campaign told her to do the interview with Katie. She really didn`t want to do it, I guess. And she said, do it, because Katie has low self- esteem. In other words, she did the interview because she pitied Katie? I mean, what kind of a spin is that?
CONTINETTI: Sarah Palin spin. It seems like, though, but you know, Randi talked about deer in the headlights. That would make sense if you`ve been sold on the interview as a total Oprah like gauzy human interest story and all of a sudden you get 12 questions about your stance on abortion. You would be a little bit as a public figure, a little bit shocked, a little bit like what`s going on here?
BEHAR: Well, wait a second, she was running for vice president at that point.
CONTINETTI: I`m just saying in the moment, Joy.
BEHAR: And Katie Couric is an anchor.
CONTINETTI: You have to weigh that.
BEHAR: She`s an anchor; she`s a network news anchor.
CONTINETTI: And saying what was told to Sarah Palin.
RHODES: She didn`t do well with Charles Gibson either, so...
BEHAR: No, that`s right but she has excuses. And what would be her excuse about not knowing any Supreme Court cases, for example? Remember that, Kinky?
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, I mean, I don`t know why she particularly would. I mean, Roe v Wade, I mean, there are some...
RHODES: That`s the one she knew.
FRIEDMAN: I know Brown and what -- the Board of Education. I know there`s a few.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. That was a bad -- Yes, right, that was a bad one.
RHODES: Dred Scott was bad too.
FRIEDMAN: Dred Scott was a bad one.
BEHAR: But do you think that -- do you think that -- since you`re running for governor right? Of Texas?
FRIEDMAN: Well, I think so, yes.
BEHAR: You`ll have to know certain things. Do you think that it`s legitimate to say that a future vice president should know some Supreme Court cases?
FRIEDMAN: Well...
BEHAR: Or am I just being picky?
FRIEDMAN: No, no, no, I don`t think you`re being picky. But see I mean -- I`m a musician at heart. I mean, that it`s a giant step down from musician to politician. And I might blurt out the truth. It`s possible.
BEHAR: Go right ahead.
FRIEDMAN: But these politicians are -- they are a very sorry a lot. You know Mark Twain was not wrong about them. And all I`m saying is the word is veneer, I guess.
BEHAR: Yes.
FRIEDMAN: She doesn`t have the veneer that these other guys and gals have.
BEHAR: Which is what? What`s the veneer that they have?
FRIEDMAN: Well, it`s a phoniness, it`s a career, corrupt...
BEHAR: She doesn`t have that?
FRIEDMAN: No, no, she is raw and brittle and that`s why I think she irritates me. I mean, she seems to be in mile...
CONTINETTI: I think, that`s an excellent point, Kinky. I think that both why she irritates some people and appeals to others. That very rawness...
FRIEDMAN: Yes that`s it.
CONTINETTI: ... and that authenticity that people see. It was Bill Clinton, I read about this in the book, Bill Clinton got it. He said, look, I can see why when people look at Sarah Palin, they see themselves. They see the same challenges I face every day, or the people looking at her. They`ve seen a big family with all these problems, Bill Clinton understood it and Kinky Friedman does, too.
RHODES: Well, yes, but she can`t keep playing this double standard thing where women are treated so badly and the whole segment on Oprah about her clothes.
BEHAR: Here we go.
RHODES: I mean, oh...
BEHAR: We`re going to show something. Palin also addressed the wardrobe controversy during the Oprah interview. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW": That whole process of getting you to the stage, you walked in and there is the wardrobe.
PALIN: Yes.
WINFREY: They had already provided the wardrobe for you.
PALIN: Yes.
WINFREY: Was that fun, exciting? I think that would be kind of cool.
PALIN: It was practically speaking, oh, good, because I don`t like to shop and that`s going to be one less thing for me to have to worry about, never thinking that it was going to be a big controversy because it wasn`t a controversy with other candidates. And where did they get their clothes? And who`s styling their hair and all that? That was the double standard to that I`ve talked about in the book.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: See, that`s a lot of baloney.
RHODES: Yes.
BEHAR: Right there, she right away she`s the victim. They made fun of Al Gore clothes, they make fun of John Edwards hair, they`ve made fun of Hillary Clinton`s pantsuits. She`s the only one they made fun of according to this. That`s why she gets on everybody`s nerves.
CONTINETTI: Right, well, I mean, it`s also true. People did make fun of her and the clothes.
BEHAR: Yes, so but she`s not the only one. She says it`s double standard.
RHODES: Nobody was making fun of her with her clothes.
CONTINETTI: They did, I`m sitting with someone who made fun of her in the clothes. I remembered it well.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: They were upset about the amount of money spent on the clothes.
BEHAR: Right.
CONTINETTI: She didn`t spend the money.
RHODES: Just like they were upset about the amount of money that Edwards spent on his haircut.
CONTINETTI: Sure.
RHODES: And remember, Clinton on the tarmac, he got a haircut.
BEHAR: That`s right.
RHODES: And that was like news for a week, too, so it`s not a double standard.
BEHAR: She says she didn`t...
RHODES: It might be wrong.
BEHAR: But she says she didn`t like...
CONTINETTI: I think it was wrong no matter what.
RHODES: But it wasn`t a double standard.
BEHAR: She said she didn`t like wearing the fancy clothes, right? You know, that she was just a country girl, ok. But then Levi, her, what`s this face, her son-in-law...
RHODES: Her baby.
CONTINETTI: The baby a great daddy.
BEHAR: He`s the baby`s daddy, right. He was the baby`s daddy.
CONTINETTI: And not the grand...
BEHAR: He says in a "Vanity Fair" article that she loved the clothes. He says that, she was in love with all the clothes. So she`s -- she`s kind of two faced.
RHODES: Yes.
CONTINETTI: According to Levi. But Levi says a lot of things that I`m not sure would be backed up with the truth. And we all know, I did hear one story when researching my books, I heard one story that they handed a leather belt, part of this wardrobe to Todd, he looked at it and he said, "I`m not wearing this." He thought it was too ritzy. He didn`t like it; he didn`t feel comfortable in that.
BEHAR: Her Toddsy?
CONTINETTI: That was Todd, yes, that was the first dude.
BEHAR: Kinky, what do you think of Todd? Is he you`re kind of guy?
FRIEDMAN: I have no feelings. Yes, I`m not -- this thing reminds me of Blagojevich deal where when Blagojevich, the governor of Illinois, how most of us found it very amusing and entertaining and the people that were so enraged about it...
BEHAR: Yes.
FRIEDMAN: ... deeply offended, were the other politicians who were furious with him.
BEHAR: With Blagojevich.
FRIEDMAN: Because they`re just like him except they are more sophisticated. They`re far more sophisticated. They don`t use the "f" word every four seconds. That`s the very difference.
BEHAR: Well, Dick Cheney uses the "f" word. He`s not so sophisticated.
FRIEDMAN: Well, no, he`s not.
BEHAR: Ok, we`re going to take a break now. And we`re going to come back -- we`re going to come back with more Sarah Palin. I want to talk about more of the Oprah Winfrey interview. It was terrific. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID BROOKS, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: She`s a joke. I mean, I just can`t take her seriously. We have serious problems in the country.
The idea that this potential talk show host is considered seriously for the Republican nomination, believe me, it will never happen. Voters -- Republican primary voters are just not going to elect her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What does he mean by that? A talk show host.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They elected an out of work actor 30 years ago.
BEHAR: That`s true and George Bush is not the greatest brain trust.
That`s conservative columnist David Brooks` less than flattering take on his fellow conservative Sarah Palin on ABC this week.
And we`re back talking about Palin`s one-hour interview with Oprah Winfrey. Before I go any further, Kinky, you said before this whole Palin thing reflects more on us than it does on her. What do you exactly mean by that?
KINKY FRIEDMAN, AUTHOR, "CELEBRITY PET FILES": Well, look, I don`t agree with her on virtually anything except one point and that is she`s right about the Katie Couric thing. New Yorkers tend to -- they`ve got their culture bound. Most people don`t go five blocks out of their own neighborhood. They`re very provincial people. And the other people from Alaska or Texas or some place else -- I saw this with the BBC when I did an interview Edinburgh once, in Scotland.
The people in London on the line were saying, Kinky, what are you doing up there in the wilderness up there? I mean, not only is Edinburgh a very cultural place which gave the world Sherlock Holmes and Robert Lewis Stevenson and Robert Burns.
BEHAR: The kilt.
FRIEDMAN: The Scottish people were very insulted by the London attitude of the BBC toward...
BEHAR: The elitism of it.
FRIEDMAN: That`s all it is. Some of that.
BEHAR: You know David Brooks in a way is an elite in the Republican Party; he`s like the intellectual type of -- Charles Krauthammer and those guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t like her.
BEHAR: They don`t like her.
FRIEDMAN: Wait a minute, Charles Krauthammer doesn`t like her?
BEHAR: I don`t think so, no.
RHODES: Only Bill Kristol I think.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Bill Kristol likes her.
(CROSSTALK)
CONTINETTI: But you know Joy, you`re absolutely, right, though. It`s a difference between the elites of the Republican Party and the grassroots of the Republican base.
So David -- I`m just not sure David is right that these Republican primary voters wouldn`t vote for a talk show host if that talk show host had their values and that`s the most important thing. Any voter does, that`s what they vote on, does this person share their values?
BEHAR: I know but the base does not give you the middle of the country, it does not give you the independents.
CONTINETTI: That`s her big problem. I completely agree.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s a big, big problem.
BEHAR: Listen to what she tells Oprah about the campaign after her daughter`s pregnancy was revealed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: A PR person from the campaign came into my room and said, "Ok, we`re going to react to this. We`re going to send out a press release" and I read it and it was the "we`re very happy basically to become grandparents." I said no, no, no, no.
Here`s our opportunity. Let`s try to help tackle the problem of teen pregnancy in America.
WINFREY: That is what you said, but that is not what was put out.
PALIN: Rewrote it and then a couple of hours later, news scroll across the screen, and there it is, the message that I didn`t want sent. Just a little bit of an indication of problems to come about; what I would be able to say and how I would be able to speak or not speak my heart and my values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Do you think that the McCain campaign knew that the kid was pregnant before they asked her to be vice president?
RHODES: She says they did.
BEHAR: Do you believe that?
RHODES: No.
BEHAR: I don`t believe it either.
RHODES: I don`t either.
CONTINETTI: You know I do and in my book I talked to the vetters on the campaign and they said the first thing that she told them was, "Listen, my daughter is pregnant".
BEHAR: And I`m preaching abstinence and my daughter is pregnant and they went along with that?
CONTINETTI: They relayed that information to McCain. He picked her anyway
RHODES: She said when she showed up they already knew that Bristol -- - and it shocked her...
CONTINETTI: They had a previous interview.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: She thought the only thing controversial about here would be when she got a "D" in school once. That`s what she said. And then she disallows the McCain campaign from allowing her to protect her children.
You know as a mother you talk about the base and sharing values. There`s not a mother in this country that would let a politician serve her kids up like that because of her blind ambition. Those are not family values. That was a bizarre segment.
BEHAR: What do you think of that, Kinky?
FRIEDMAN: I think you`ve got to, as a renaissance Texan, you know, it strikes me that you have to let -- like Manny Ramirez, you have to let Sarah be Sarah. I don`t especially like the woman. I don`t agree with her on anything, but that`s her long suit would seem to be herself.
BEHAR: She wants to solve the teen pregnancy problem. That`s one of her issues.
FRIEDMAN: Have at it.
BEHAR: Maybe she should think about teaching birth control, then, and she doesn`t. Then she says she is espousing abstinence and then she drags the pregnant daughter around with her who obviously didn`t practice abstinence.
The hypocrisy and the double standard she puts out there is why people react violently to that.
CONTINETTI: I don`t think it is that hypocritical. She is pro- contraception. That was the big misconception in the campaign that I talk about in my book. Secondly, she stood for abstinence and thinks people should wait until they`re married to have sex. Her daughter and Levi obviously didn`t and they have to deal with that.
I thing she actually attracts more people who are like, you know what, I can sympathize with that problem, Joy, than she repulses by people saying you`re being a hypocrite, you`re betraying your children, you`re not protecting your children. People know that she`s going to try to protect her children.
RHODES: Let me say something. Oprah -- you know, I love the Oprah. I got to love the Oprah.
BEHAR: Who doesn`t love the Oprah?
RHODES: The audience loves the Oprah. You know what it`s like to do a live show with an audience. When she talked about this beautiful baby as a gift, there was no applause. Now when you don`t -- that means the audience wasn`t buying it. That`s the problem.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Oprah didn`t shy away from asking about her pseudo son-in-law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: I don`t know if we call him Levi. I hear he goes by the name Ricky Hollywood now. If that`s the case, we don`t want to mess up this gig he has going, this aspiring porn, some of the things that he`s doing. It`s kind of heartbreaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You see, on the one hand, it`s heart breaking. On the other hand he`s -- what did she say? Ricky Hollywood and this kind of aspiring porn. So she puts him down in one breath and then it`s heartbreaking and I want the boy to come for thanksgiving and we love the boy. See what I mean?
CONTINETTI: I think this was the weakest part of the entire Oprah interview. If Sarah Palin entertains national ambitions she`s going to have to put that personal stuff behind.
Ronald Reagan -- he was viewed as distant by his own family. He wasn`t a particularly good father because he was so apart from everything. He had his principles and he just stuck to them and all the negativity, all the Levi Johnstons of the world, they would bounce right off of him.
BEHAR: That`s true. You know he`s been gone awhile...
RHODES: I know Ron Reagan and he would disagree that his father...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ron Reagan Jr. What would he say?
RHODES: He loved his dad.
CONTINETTI: He loved his dad but you know Maureen wrote that book criticizing...
RHODES: I worked with him for a long time.
BEHAR: The thing is, to your point, Levi keeps popping up in her face. I mean, in the articles that I`ve been reading he says that she calls the little Trig, her little retarded baby. Maybe it`s not true, but maybe it is.
CONTINETTI: That`s not true.
BEHAR: It makes her look bad. It makes her look bad. And that she`s only out for the money, that she quit the governorship because she`s a quitter and wanted to make money with her book. And yet she presents herself as some kind of a queen of, you know, family values and people respond negatively to that, Matt.
CONTINETTI: Everyone is fact checking Sarah Palin. Who is fact checking Levi Johnston? It`s his word against everybody else.
BEHAR: Well, that`s true. We`re going to have him on one of these nights; I`m going to fact check him. I want to check out "Playgirl" also.
Stay right there. We`ll be right back with more on this topic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You know, I`ve never met her. Look, I`d look forward to sit down and talk with her. Obviously we`re going to hear a lot more from her in the upcoming weeks with her book coming out. And I would look forward to having a chance to actually get to meet her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes. Hillary Clinton tells ABC`s "This Week" that she`d actually like to meet Sarah Palin.
We are back discussing all things Palin after she appeared on Oprah today for a one-hour interview. Was this interview too soft for Oprah?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She never asked her about the death panels; not one word on the death panels.
RHODES: Yes that`s true. She didn`t get into the health care and death panels and that stuff. You know, Joy, I`m just sitting here and thinking about, you know, we`re talking about what a bonanza it is every time she gets on the TV. I want Matthew to know we don`t hate her.
BEHAR: We liberals love her.
RHODES: We love her.
CONTINETTI: I don`t know. I`ve talked to some people. You guys maybe, but I`ve talked to some people who do hate her.
RHODES: I wanted her to be either the Republican nominee in 2012 or even better the independent nominee in 2012 because she`ll pull votes -- I mean, it`s a beautiful thing. She`ll keep doing these 5-part -- she`ll have 5-part coffee with Hillary.
What is with Carrie Prejean who does that, too? They all complain about how it turns out but they go back for more and more and more. Prejean, what she said -- 20 sex tapes.
BEHAR: Eight. She has eight. Don`t exaggerate.
RHODES: I heard she did it 19, 20 times. You know?
BEHAR: She`s always alone. That`s my favorite. She can`t get anybody to do it with her?
RHODES: How do you send a message to a guy, I miss you, by doing that? Do it too good and he doesn`t...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Kinky, you`re looking up at the sky. You act like you`re bored but you`re not bored.
FRIEDMAN: Well, I think there`s something stultifying dull about too much Sarah Palin.
RHODES: He can`t take it.
FRIEDMAN: I do think...
BEHAR: How about we talk about your book?
FRIEDMAN: How about not shooting fish in a barrel? How about that idea? I mean, what happened -- you know? I mean --
RHODES: He`s got a point.
BEHAR: We did that for eight years with George Bush and he still destroyed the country. Even though you shoot the fish in the barrel they still jump out and bite you.
What about your book? Let`s talk about your book for a second. What is it?
FRIEDMAN: "Kinky Celebrity Pet Files." this is a book my editor suggested the only book selling outside of Sarah Palin are pet books and celebrity books. So this is...
BEHAR: Really? I have pets.
FRIEDMAN: You do? See, if we`d known each other prior to this you definitely could have -- that`s why God created volume 2, you know?
BEHAR: What do you have, dogs or cats?
FRIEDMAN: I personally have dogs. I`ve had cats in the past. I think the book shows a lot of -- it shows how important animals are to great and famous people living and dead. Like from Churchill to Hemingway to mark twain. Hard to get kind of people, like Tom Robbins (ph) and Tom Waits and Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, you know? So that`s what came out of it to me, how important animals are in their lives.
BEHAR: Since you don`t want her to be president, I don`t think anybody in this panel wants Palin to be president. You want her to be the candidate so we can destroy the Republicans in the next election. I realize what you`re saying.
But let`s say she just wants to be a talk show host. Do you think she`d be good at that?
CONTINETTI: You`re the host. You`d be the expert on whether she would be a good one. I think she would be a good one because she has a built in audience. She`s always going to attract eyeballs to the screen.
BEHAR: You know what you need when you`re a talk show host? A level of curiosity. Does she have that?
CONTINETTI: I think she does. I think she absolutely does.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: To be a talk show host you have to be able to talk, be able to speak. She has this problem with prepositions at the end.
BEHAR: The rest of the country can understand her. It`s just the people in New York who don`t get her.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. "Celebrity Pet Files" is the name of Kinky Friedman`s new book. Thanks to my panel. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`ve got to turn to a tragic story tonight. It appears the body of 5-year-old Shaniya Davis has been found in North Carolina. She`s been missing for a week and even more shocking, today, her mother, her mother, was charged with human trafficking, felony child abuse, and prostitution. Here to discuss the case, investigative reporter Michelle Sigona that. Jane Velez-Mitchell, author of "I want." and host of "HLN Issues." But first on the phone from North Carolina is Gordon Anderson, crime reporter for "The Sanford Herald." Gordon, can you bring us up to date on the case? What`s the latest?
GORDON ANDERSON, CRIME REPORTER FOR SANFORD HERALD (on phone): Actually I just returned from a press conference at the Fayetteville police department where they said they have not made a positive I.D. on the body that was located around 1:00 p.m. today. That came as kind of a surprise. Everything that we had been told up to that point is they expected to have made positive I.D. by this point and now they`re saying they have not and don`t expect to tonight.
BEHAR: So this might not be Shaniya`s body?
ANDERSON: It`s possible, but the language that the police are using at this point seems to indicate that they`re moving forward as though it`s her. Obviously they can`t do anything as far as charging
BEHAR: The mother
ANDERSON: Mario McNeil - the mother -- until they make that identification. But from the language they`re using it sounds like they`re working on the assumption it is her.
BEHAR: The mother`s been charged with human trafficking, am I correct?
ANDERSON: That`s not something that I have confirmed. But the public information officer with Fayetteville pd said that if this body is determined to be Shaniya`s the case could lead to be an investigation of a larger human trafficking operation down the road, so that is an element in this.
BEHAR: OK, all right, thanks very much, Gordon for talking to us. OK. Michelle, is there anything in the mother`s background that would suggest she would do such a heinous thing by selling her child into human trafficking?
MICHELLE SIGONA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Not according to everyone I spoke with, although she does not appear to be as stable throughout her past, up until recently according to Bradley Lockhart, which is Shaniya`s father, he said, look, Antoinette Davis, she`s stepped up to the plate. She recently had a job, a place to live, that`s why I let my daughter stay with her after October 9th for an extended period of time to be able to give her the chance to become a mother. But never would he ever imagine that she could possibly be faced with the charges she`s faced with now.
BEHAR: The child was last seen in a hotel surveillance video with this guy, Mario McNeil. What do we know about this guy, Michelle? Do you know?
SIGONA: Here`s what we know. That particular surveillance was taken last Tuesday on November 10th, that morning and according to investigators Shaniya and Mario were only at that motel for one hour. Think about it. Antoinette reportedly last saw her child at 5:30 that morning. This was at 6:11 in the morning. From that particular point on someone from the hotel that Wednesday evening contacted investigators and said, hey, I think Shaniya was here.
So investigators went out there, pulled the surveillance and they were able to issue the photos out to the media quickly and over a period of time that`s when Mario allegedly stepped forward and said, look, I`m the one that had the child. They were able to charge him at this time with first-degree kidnapping. At this point, I do want to mention Antoinette and Mario are held at the county jail under the special management section of the jail. This is an area that holds high-risk prisoners and they`re only allowed to come out one time a day to take a shower.
BEHAR: Well now they`re saying that it might not be Shaniya. How do you - where`s that?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, AUTHOR: I think they`re trying to be absolutely careful and safe and they wanted to keep the body there to have the FBI come in so they don`t destroy evidence. The last thing you want to do is go and remove a body for quick identification and then find you`ve destroyed evidence in the process. They`d rather take it slow, but this was approximately seven miles away from the hotel where she was seen. The only missing child in the area. It seems, tragically that it`s very, very likely this is the child.
BEHAR: What is the more saying?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Well you know the mother called police and said, I left my daughter on the couch at 5:30 in the morning on Tuesday and that`s the last time I saw her, one of the reasons she`s accused of filing a false police report. Then it turns out that she`s also accused of human trafficking which is obviously a very serious charge in essence say that the you gave your daughter up for sexual servitude. You facilitated the prostitution of your 5-year-old child.
This is a monstrous allegation but it happens a lot more than you think, Joy. You go on Google, daughter sell sex and a whole bunch of stories will come up. A couple training their 12-year-old daughter to be a dominatrix, another mother selling her 19-year-old. It`s unbelievable. When we think of human trafficking, we think of these international cartels bringing in women from third-world countries. That`s true. That does happen. Home- grown child sex trafficking is a very, very serious problem. And sometimes it`s just a case of mother making a deal with somebody. Another individual, to give that child away for money or drugs.
BEHAR: OK. North Carolina has the death penalty for first-degree murder. So he would get it if they convict him, McNeil. What would the mother get?
SIGONA: He`s only charged with kidnapping at this point.
BEHAR: So far. No but if Shaniya`s body, if that is the child, wouldn`t he be charged with murder if there`s evidence?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Well, you know, here`s the thing. He was seen with the child and then there`s this gap of time and then the child -- or a body is found. So we don`t -- haven`t connected all the dots. Is there another individual involved? So we don`t really have all the answers but we do have the big question. How is it possible a mother could be accused of something this heinous? And in all my years as a journalist, I can only say one thing. There`s only one thing that can destroy a mother`s maternal instincts.
BEHAR: Drugs.
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Drugs. Police say drugs have been found at this house and also this man who is arrested has a history of drugs. A rap sheet. He`s an ex-con. He`s got a history of drugs. I would bet my bottom dollar that drugs are at the heart and soul of this tragedy.
BEHAR: You know, but when you hear about human trafficking you think of it in Thailand and the Philippines. You don`t hear about it or think about it as an American issue. But it is, isn`t it?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: It`s a huge issue.
BEHAR: How big is the problem?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: The U.S. Department of Justice says at any given time up to 300,000 children in the United States are at risk for being sold into sexual slavery. These are throw away kids, runaways. The young kids running around the streets, say, why aren`t they in school? Those are the kids who end up in sexual servitude and it`s a real, real problem.
BEHAR: It`s also a billion dollar business in some countries. In Thailand, specifically, it`s a billion dollar business.
VELEZ - MITCHELL: It is.
BEHAR: What`s been doing done by the FBI and CIA in this country exactly?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Well look, there are a host of laws on the state level and the federal level. But I think part of the problem is coming out of denial and realizing people do go to children for sex. You know, businessmen, people -- the last people you`d think of are the ones who go over to Thailand and are using children for sex. They`re trying to get away with behavior they don`t think they can get away with in the United States. But as we`re seeing in cases like this, that there are allegations this is also happening in the United States.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Michelle, do you think that this is such a horrific thing for Americans to even look at and that`s one of the reasons it doesn`t get dealt with here? It`s so horrendous and hideous.
SIGONA: This case is -- it`s one of the worst I`ve heard in a long time. I mean especially to actually have a mother faced with this sort of charges and to possibly be sold into the sex trade. And again, you know, as Jane mentioned, she is, Antoinette Davis, and also Mario McNeil are innocent until proven guilty. Actually Antoinette did appear in court earlier today around 2:30 this afternoon.
BEHAR: And what did she say?
SIGONA: She didn`t say anything, according to investigators. She was just -- she had a preliminary hearing and right now she`s being held on $50,000 bail. Mario McNeil being held on $100,000 bail at this time. But this case is horrendous, to possibly have this child sold into these kinds of conditions, number one. Number two, if this body does, in fact, turn up to be Shaniya Davis, the fact that she could have -- the torture she could have went through and been tossed off and left on the side of the road, it makes my stomach turn.
BEHAR: I know, do you think this case will shine a light on human trafficking?
SIGONA: Absolutely. Yes.
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Absolutely, and what`s so tragic is when you see the picture of the child going into the hotel, she`s hanging on to the man`s shoulder and trusting and so she`s not even concerned because it appears that she -- it would appear that she knows this individual and trusts him. Take a look at the photo right there.
BEHAR: You said something interesting. You said only drugs would kill a mother`s maternal instincts. What about him? He`s a druggy too? Or he`s just a predator?
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Well he is an ex-con, he has a rap sheet, and part of that rap sheet involves drugs. So we have -- I don`t want to speculate. I will say as a recovering alcoholic, myself, when a craving takes hold, when an addictive craving takes hold, you are not in charge. You`re a zombie. And you will do whatever it takes to find that substance of choice.
BEHAR: This is why you have to have other people looking in on your children.
VELEZ - MITCHELL: Exactly.
BEHAR: OK, thank you very much, Michelle, thank you very much, Jane. We`ll be right back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously everybody wants to know about this sex tape that surfaced last week. There is one, correct?
PREJEAN: You can call it whatever you want to call it. If you want to call it a sex tape, that`s fine. But --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well what do you call it?
PREJEAN: It was me by myself. There was no one else with me. I was not having sex. I sent it to my boyfriend at the time. I was a teenager. I cared about him. I trusted him. I was by myself. I sent it to a boyfriend. It was for, you know, private use, but did that justify what I did? No. It was the biggest mistake of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She makes them by herself. She`s such a little camera hog. That`s the ex-beauty queen turned drama queen on "The Today Show" admitting to making a sex tape. Since then, news of seven more tapes has surfaced, just in time for the holidays. Maybe she made one for each night of Hanukkah, who knows, who knows. Joining me to discuss this and other things are Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag, authors of "How to be Famous" and Perez Hilton, blogger and author of "Perez Hilton`s True Bloggywood Stories." Hi everybody. OK Heidi and Spencer, now you wrote a book on being famous.
SPENCER PRATT, AUTHOR: As did Perez.
BEHAR: As did Perez. But all of you then, are she doing it right?
PRATT: Well let me start here. I`m very impressed if she hits it off the bat with seven tapes. I`ve heard to come out with one sex tape but to come out with seven, that`s setting a bar I have to live up to.
BEHAR: What do you think, Perez?
PEREZ HILTON, AUTHOR: I think Carrie Prejean is a hypocrite and a liar and I love her. I love her.
BEHAR: Why do you love her?
HILTON: Because she`s so stupid, but she doesn`t know how stupid she is. You know, goes back to what I first said. She`s a dumb beep.
BEHAR: Let`s take a look at the moment that made Carrie Prejean a household name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PREJEAN: Well I think its great Americans are able to choose one or another. We live in a land that you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage, and you know what? In my country and in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman, no offense to anybody out there, but that`s how I was raised and that`s how I think that it should be between a man and a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. You know, Perez, you`re the reason she`s so famous. Now that she has this sex tape, do you feel vindicated?
HILTON: I feel like this last two weeks have been wonderful, and, you know, Carrie Prejean makes Heidi Montag look like a genius.
PRATT: She is a genius.
BEHAR: Be nice to Heidi. Be nice to Heidi. You know, listen, Perez, one thing I have to say to you, she did answer the question honestly. She believes marriage is between a man and a woman. I don`t happen to go along with that. I think its people who are in love want to get married they should get married. Let them get married. But that`s what she believes. So shouldn`t she get some credit for that?
HILTON: Absolutely. She gave the politically incorrect answer in her words. Even watching her interviews recently, she`s like, I didn`t want to be politically correct, but I flip that back to her and say, do you want a politically insensitive miss USA? No. You have to know what you`re running for.
BEHAR: Heidi, what do --?
PRATT: Before we get into this Joy, I really have a question for Perez. I love your outfit. Did you borrow that from your wifey Lady Gaga?
HILTON: No, I got this on my own at American Apparel. Shameless blood, I paid for it.
BEHAR: OK Heidi, your Christianity was on full display on "I`m a celebrity get me out of here." let`s take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONTAG: I just don`t know why there`s such mean people and Tory saying she`s this Christian and you know, born again and blah, blah, blah. But it`s like, Christians don`t do that. Now I`m just going to try to pray to forgive them and try to get some sort of -- to forgive them. I`m not going to be, like, best friends with them. I`m going to love them like Jesus tells me to love them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now Heidi, you have also posed topless.
HEIDI MONTAG, AUTHOR: I have posed topless.
BEHAR: Now you`re a good Christian girl. How do you reconcile those two things?
PRATT: There were no nipples. So technically posing topless has nipples.
MONTAG: No, no, no. I was halfway topless. But for me I feel like.
BEHAR: But will you make a sex tape? Would you make one? It makes you famous.
MONTAG: No, I don`t think I would make one. But let`s clarify, not only did she make a sex tape but she`s a solo artist in the sex tape. That`s unique, that`s new. A new type of pop culture. I`m very impressed with her antics because I don`t think its accident.
BEHAR: But Perez, why do you think she made a sex tape all by herself?
HILTON: Because she`s horny. You know, and also just to clarify something that you said earlier, Joy, or that was shown on the program, she claims she was underage, 17, but according to this ex-boyfriend that sold or leaked the video, she was definitely in her 20s and I have this big announcement. I have secretly been working on my own book, a new book, "True Bloggywood story where I talk about Carrie and I talk about will I am and the Dustin Lance Black, naked pictures and all the controversies I`ve been in this year. It`s juicy.
BEHAR: But politically speaking, why do you think Conservatives hate here? Prejean? Perez? She seems to get the Liberals -- why do Liberals hate her? I`m sorry. Did I say Conservatives? Oh my god, no. The liberals hate her. The Conservatives I think like her. Now with the sex tapes I think they`re turning. What do you think?
HILTON: I think what`s interesting is she was a blank canvass for a lot of Conservatives. They were projecting all of these ideas on to her and who she could be. But the more we find out about her, the more we learn she`s anything but that.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Do you think she`s a hypocrite?
HILTON: Yes.
MONTAG: I mean, a little bit.
HILTON: A pretty one.
MONTAG: A very pretty one. A beauty queen one. None of us are perfect and I think that`s the thing about Christianity. Are we all making mistakes and none of us are perfect. It`s a crazy world we live in. But if we do it on purpose, which she very well could be like Perez is saying, maybe she made it last month; maybe she made it half a year ago after he got her fame off of Perez.
BEHAR: When I saw you two last there was controversy about babies. Are you planning to bring a baby Spiedi into the world? Are you still fighting over that?
HILTON: We`re definitely not solo artists that are for sure. Babies are -
BEHAR: That`s funny. In other words, Carrie Prejean could not have the baby by herself.
MONTAG: But we definitely make Perez the godfather, because no one knows pop culture better than Perez and we would need our kid to be in the limelight.
BEHAR: But you know a lot of people don`t like you for some reason. They hate you. Why? Could it be anything other than your famous for no apparent reason? Maybe that`s why they don`t like you.
PRATT: You know what I think its jealousy.
BEHAR: They`re jealous.
PRATT: People who want to look good, you know? It`s hard.
BEHAR: Who cuts your hair? Ginsu knife sales man?
PRATT: He`s a samurai from Japan.
MONTAG: He has a samurai.
PRATT: Shout-out to Japan.
BEHAR: Perez, thank you very for being with us. I appreciate you coming by. You can buy "True Bloggywood Stories online the first week of December. Back with me, more with Heidi and Spencer and more questions for them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRATT: I get you water. You hid her possessions. Calm down. You don`t know who you`re talking to. Let`s play. Let`s play. You want to play? Boom, you want to play? Where does it end?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. That was Spencer Pratt acting crazy on NBC`s "I`m a Celebrity Get Me out of Here" I`m back with the Speidi, don`t you love that title? Speidal -
MONTAG: I do, love it.
BEHAR: The couple that everyone -- why do they hate you?
PRATT: It`s just me.
BEHAR: I think you`re kind of funny, the two of you. And also, I see your book in here and you have acknowledged me. Why me? What did I do to deserve this?
PRATT: Well, dear, getting Heidi on "The View" is -
BEHAR: I got her on?
PRATT: -- contributing to the how to be famous -
MONTAGE: That`s true. Everybody who helps to make you famous is acknowledged. Who is part of it, who have been in it, who we have worked with, so you know, we appreciate you.
BEHAR: So we were talking a little bit about you guys having a baby. He was against it. You were for it. Have you decided what to do?
MONTAG: I think we`ve decided to wait for a little bit. You know, I have an album coming out.
BEHAR: He wanted that. You`re the run who was in a rush.
MONTAG: I was in a rush. I just performed at Miss Universe and now I have my album coming out and I`m going to perform at the World Cup coming up actually there --
BEHAR: So you`re too busy.
MONTAG: Right, I`m too busy.
BEHAR: I can understand that. And the other thing is, is this some act? Like, when the cameras stop rolling are you home watching masterpiece theater?
PRATT: No. Not at all. I wish it was an act.
BEHAR: You actually act like this when you`re home with each other, right?
MONTAG: What do you mean, act like what?
BEHAR: The way you carry-on, the way you are in the videos, in the shows that you do.
PRATT: Every show, every show has different editors and different producers. Every show has a different purpose for their audience.
BEHAR: Now you also -- I think you think that you`re very handsome, which you are.
PRATT: I`m gorgeous.
BEHAR: Yes, you`re gorgeous, OK. Levi Johnston is doing a spread -
(CROSSTALK)
PRATT: Big fan of Levi.
BEHAR: -- in "Playgirl" magazine. Full montey.
PRATT: Well I`m doing my own -- eight, actually, my own eight solo masturbation videos. As Carrie Prejean as seven -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Stop it you`re lying -
PRATT: I`m going to send them to Heidi because I love you.
BEHAR: But you know in my day during the Lincoln Administration, if you made a sex tape, your career was over. Now it makes you famous.
MONTAG: I know that`s right. Actually we don`t have a sex tape in there because we think it`s so dirty and below the belt that we don`t suggest that for anyone. Obviously it`s instant fame, but it`s true. All the people in the tabloids --
BEHAR: Yes, Paris Hilton, the Kardashian girl --
MONTAG: They`re all porn stars.
PRATT: Prejean.
BEHAR: OK, now here are a couple questions from viewers before we go, I want to get them in. Morgan asks, Heidi, what kind of life do you expect to have with Spencer in 30 years?
MONTAG: I expect to have the best life in the world. Every year gets better. Every year we are more in love. Every year, you know, really we - -
BEHAR: How long are you together now?
PRATT: Three years.
MONTAG: Almost four.
BEHAR: Almost four years.
MONTAG: So a while. You know, almost our one-year wedding anniversary from our elopement.
BEHAR: So you see yourself as a geriatric couple someday?
PRATT: On TV some day?
BEHAR: And have a reality show?
PRATT: 100 percent.
BEHAR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) get me out of here.
PRATT: With the walkers.
MONTAG: Right. The whole thing. Spencer being President.
PRATT: Oh, I hear music. No. Bye, Joy!
BEHAR: Well the other question is why are you considered celebrities? What do you contribute to the world? That`s obvious. You contribute so much.
PRATT: Thank you, Joy.
MONTAG: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: The book is called "How to be Famous." thanks to Heidi and Spencer and all my guests tonight and thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
