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Joy Behar Page
Palin`s Book Tour; Mom Vs. Military
Aired November 17, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW sales for "Going Rogue" are going through the roof. But will Sarah Palin`s vindictiveness backfire? We`ll talk about the latest Palin blame game.
And there`s been a lot of posing and posturing this week. Is Sarah Palin`s "Newsweek" cover too sexist? Is Levi Johnston`s "Playgirl" shoot not sexy enough? We`ll discuss.
Finally sex addicts, Dr. Drew Pinsky helps us understand why too much pleasure often leads to pain.
All that starting right now.
"Going Rogue," Sarah Palin`s new book, is officially out today and it`s selling faster than Moose Burgers in Wasilla. Is the former vice presidential candidate really going rogue or she is just going after the McCain campaign?
Joining me now to discuss is Hilary Rosen, CNN political contributor and Ann Coulter, my pal, conservative commentator and author of "Guilty: Liberal Victims and their Assault on America" now out in paperback.
I say it like that because the title is so vindictive and nasty and I love it. Now, let me -- how are you girls? I`m so happy to see you all.
HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Right.
BEHAR: A new poll is showing that 70 percent of Americans are saying that Sarah Palin is not qualified to be president. My question is who are the 30 percent that think she is besides you, Ann?
ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Yes, well there`s me.
BEHAR: There`s you.
COULTER: I guess, I mean for one thing it`s definitely the Americans who are not swayed by what the mainstream media says. I don`t know whether she can overcome those numbers. I mean, if that poll is accurate and if it continues that way, ok, I guess she probably can`t run for president.
But there have been some very popular and very successful presidents who have been down in the polls before they became president, like Ronald Reagan and Bush and I don`t think Obama was ever down in the polls.
BEHAR: You`re scaring me now that you mentioned the two of them. Hilary, what do you think?
ROSEN: Well, I actually agree with Ann. I think that it`s probably too soon to tell exactly what the makeup is of the Republican primary but there are enough people who know about Sarah Palin and like her to make her formidable if she goes there.
That`s the scary thing. But I think she takes some responsibility for the fact that so many people believe she`s not qualified and I don`t think she`s done very much to make people believe she is qualified.
BEHAR: Barbara Walters, my boss, she asked the question everybody wants to know this morning on "Good Morning America." Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA WALTERS, ABC HOST: Do you ever want to be president of the United States?
SARAH PALIN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That certainly isn`t on my radar screen right now, but when you consider some of the ordinary turning into extraordinary events that have happened in my life, I am not one to predict what will happen in a few years.
My ambition, if you will, my desire is to help our country in whatever role that may be and I cannot predict what that will be, what doors would be open in the year 2012.
WALTERS: Would you play a major role?
PALIN: If people will have me, I will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`ll tell you which people would like it, comedians.
ROSEN: You know, I don`t think we -- I don`t think we should trash her, though, for wanting to be president. I want every girl in America to want to grow up to want to be president.
BEHAR: I know.
ROSEN: I mean that`s not a bad thing. What troubles me is that people might actually vote for her, that`s the bad thing. Ambition I think should not be attacked in women.
BEHAR: Well, David Brooks, did you see him on George Stephanopolous. He said she was a joke, Ann, your own party base person there; he`s one of the intellectuals in the party, I know that. He thinks she`s a joke and she should be -- she`s a talk show host he says -- which I find rather insulting to me but that`s another story.
COULTER: That`s right. That`s right.
BEHAR: Yes.
COULTER: Well, actually I think most Republicans consider David Brooks a joke. And I think as long as I`m on with the gals I`d like to point out that Sarah Palin, that 30 percent that totally loves Sarah Palin was it they saw her being president or that they loved her? Because I bet you more people love her than would necessarily want her to be president but in any event it cuts across gender lines on our side.
I mean, the enthusiasm for Sarah Palin is young among conservatives, young people, old people, blue collar people and a lot of men and a lot of women and I`ve got to tell you, I don`t see a woman on the Democrat side that attracts that sort of following, certainly not Hillary Clinton. It was mostly liberal women who liked Hillary. It was liberal women who liked Geraldine Ferraro, not Sarah Palin.
BEHAR: Well, her base is passionate and loud but the silent majority as the right wing likes to call them, they don`t seem like her as much. I mean, just because they`re loud it doesn`t mean that she has a shot, right, Hilary?
ROSEN: I think people see her generally as erratic. I think she hasn`t done much to prove otherwise, since she had that mind-boggling detour on the lakeside quitting the governor`s race; she`s done virtually nothing substantively.
When you look at the book tour even which is, in my view, a political consultant`s nightmare, she`s not doing anything on this book tour that would show she`s really in touch with ordinary Americans. She`s stopping at a lot of book stores but she`s not going to job centers. She`s not focusing on unemployment. She`s not dealing with what`s supposed to be her core issues like energy. Or...
BEHAR: No.
ROSEN: ... economics. There`s no substance involved whatsoever. That, I think, is the unfortunate part of...
BEHAR: Well...
ROSEN: ... of what, you know, this victimhood she`s playing. I think she`s completely doing this for herself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But I mean, she`s also taking swipes at the McCain campaign. Let`s listen to another part of Barbara`s interview with her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: The press reports quoted unnamed McCain aides calling you a diva, you know, there`s a whack job, a narcissist. Why do you think these people were trying to destroy your reputation?
PALIN: For some people, this is a business and if failure in this business was going to reflect poorly on them, they had to kind of pack their own parachutes and protect themselves and their reputations so they wouldn`t be blamed.
I`ll take the blame, though, because I know at the end of the day what the truth is. And if it makes them feel better to be able to say, she`s the one who caused the downfall because she had a lousy interview one day, then so be it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It wasn`t just one interview. It was a series of incoherent sentences and lack of any kind of -- it was, I`m sorry, Ann.
COULTER: Well, that is certainly...
BEHAR: She`d never -- her syntax alone would drive you crazy.
COULTER: You`re doing an excellent job summarizing the mainstream media position. I disagree with both of you on almost everything you`ve set out.
BEHAR: Well, we know that, we know that.
COULTER: I think it totally makes sense and she explained it beautifully why she left the governorship. She has been doing a lot, since leaving the governorship, she wrote this book.
She`s not going to job centers because this is a book tour, it`s not a campaign for president and by the way it actually isn`t unusual and a very populist book tour.
I mean, I can tell you, when I did my book tours I hit New York and L.A. and that`s about it, much to the annoyance of my publisher I might add. She is basically you know doing -- I don`t know -- a week I guess in New York and blowing that off and going up to Ground Rapids and Tuscaloosa, Oklahoma. I mean, she is going to her base to sell this book.
No, she is not running like a presidential campaign...
BEHAR: Yes.
COULTER: ... but she`s promoting a book.
BEHAR: I think she`s divisive a lot of times when she talks about the real America. She separates the American people from each other. And you know when we`re in wars; you`re going to need every American to fight these wars not just the real America.
I find that very divisive of her. Do you?
COULTER: No, I`m sorry, is this for Hilary?
BEHAR: Hilary, go ahead.
ROSEN: Well, I think it wouldn`t necessarily be divisive if Ann was writing this book but if it`s a politician trying to prove that they can make progress in the country, that they could bring people together, that they have a thoughtful position to sell because success in politics is about bringing people together, or at least enough so that you`ve got a majority. I think the issue for her is she spends way too much time in this book blaming other people.
I don`t think John McCain lost because of Sarah Palin, but I do think it added to the message mean (ph), that he was erratic, that he wasn`t prepared himself to take on a lot of the issues seriously. And the fact that she wasn`t a substantive enough and consistent enough partner proved his bad decision-making.
I don`t think it was only her fault, but having said that there are a lot of things that get said in attack about Sarah Palin that I`m troubled by it. I don`t think anybody would have talked about all of her clothes, for instance, during the campaign, if she had been a guy and they were, you know, $100,000 worth of blue suits which by the way you can spend $100,000 on.
BEHAR: Well, wait a minute...
ROSEN: ... and took on his fancy.
BEHAR: ... they made a lot out of John Edwards` expensive haircuts. They didn`t left him off the hook.
COULTER: We didn`t hear too much about Joe Biden`s hair plugs.
I think the divisiveness is coming from the media attacking her for being really an ordinary American, married to a blue collar guy. And the way the media jeers at her...
BEHAR: If she was so ordinary, Ann, she wouldn`t be that charismatic. She`s not ordinary.
COULTER: She is a charismatic ordinary American.
BEHAR: I mean, that`s an oxymoron, isn`t an oxymoron, a charismatic ordinary American?
COULTER: No, I think it`s an oxymoron to say she is a primadonna and a corn pone, that`s an oxymoron. To say that she is -- is charismatic but also an ordinary Americans, I think ordinary Americans are pretty cool cats and so is she. They relate to her when the media attacks her. I think a lot of Americans feel like wow, is that what they think of me?
And as long as we`re talking about the divisiveness of her book; look, the McCain campaign was sniping at her, leaking a lot to the press during that campaign. So ok fine, this is payback time, I`m really looking forward to it.
In Obama`s autobiography he attacks me by name and I have never mentioned him before. So you know suddenly we`re worried about divisiveness when it`s a popular conservation female politician.
BEHAR: Hilary, you want to have one last quick word before I go.
ROSEN: I think the problem when you write a kiss-and-tell autobiography is that people don`t want to, you know, kiss you anymore. They don`t want to be with you anymore because they don`t trust you. And so I think she`s going to have a lot of trouble being taken seriously in the Republican Party when she`s viewed as such a vindictive person.
BEHAR: Ok.
Thank you very much, Ann and Hilary.
When we come back, you can`t have Sarah without Levi.
We`ll be right back.
Thank you, ladies.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN, AUTHOR, "GOING ROGUE: AN AMERICAN LIFE": Open invitation for Levi to come to Aunt Katie`s house for Thanksgiving dipper in Washington. There, it`s there.
LEVI JOHNSTON: That was a really convincing invite to go Washington to eat at an aunt`s house. Yes, but I think if I go there I`m going to need an Army, because it`s not going to be good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Bristol Palin`s baby daddy, Levi Johnston talking about his pseudo mother-in-law`s invitation to Thanksgiving dinner. That looks like really fun, doesn`t it?
Who carves the moose?
I`ll tell you this. If those people get together for the holidays melting ice caps will be the least of Alaska`s problem.
Here with me to discuss all things Palin, our favorite subject, Steve Kornacki, political columnist for the "New York observer"; Ann Ortiz, co-star of ABC`s "Ugly Betty" and Michael McKean, actor, comedian and star of Broadway`s "Superior Doughnuts."
Ok. Does this Thanksgiving dinner happen, do you think?
ANN ORTIZ, CO-STAR, "UGLY BETTY": No way. There`s no way it happens.
BEHAR: Why? That should be (INAUDIBLE)
ORTIZ: I suppose but only if the cameras are present, I think. I feel a little bit like Sarah Palin and Levi were the ones dating and not Bristol. I feel like there`s such that little like...
BEHAR: That`s an interesting point.
ORTIZ: There`s so much bickering.
BEHAR: Like they`re on top of it. He should be fighting with Bristol and he`s not.
Steve Kornacki, political columnist, "new York OBSERVER": Wouldn`t you love to be invited to a Thanksgiving dinner on national television under duress when you`re being grilled? That`s not the way I like to go to my family event.
MICHAEL MCKEAN, COMEDIAN: I think the event -- the Thanksgiving event should be pay-per-view anyway, because she s -- let`s be honest, she is the reality television candidate. She is the first one of this era.
I think O.J. was the first reality television trial, and this is the first reality television candidate.
BEHAR: Yes. But there was no talk of O.J. becoming president of the United States. How scary is that?
MCKEAN: Patience. Patience. He`s studying law.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Sarah Palin threw some punches at Levi on "Oprah" but Levi hit back on "E.T." Let`s look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: The whole premise of Levi ever having lived with Bristol is false. And from there, though, I mean you take that foundational untruth and you can kind of measure all the other things that he`s saying.
JOHNSTON: You know, she`s basically calling me a liar which is total (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I did for, you know, a few, a couple months, and then we split up, and that was it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, I mean, you know, it`s becoming he said/she said. You know.
MCKEAN: Right.
BEHAR: I mean if you read the "Vanity Fair" article, I`m sure you read that with Levi he said some scathing things about her and then she really went after him and the interview with Oprah where she talks about him as a porn star with the "Playgirl" thing which, by the way, he`s not doing full frontal.
Oh, my God, San Francisco is creating a national day of mourning, because -- but anyway.
Who do you believe? Who do you think is tell -- who is the bigger liar, let`s say or the smaller liar?
MCKEAN: Wow. I think it`s just -- go ahead.
KORNACKI: I`m amazed. This is not the first time you`ve had embarrassing family members or almost family members as is the case here in politics but there`s just a simple thing. You don`t go to war with them in public. Jimmy Carter kept Billy Carter at bay.
BEHAR: Yes.
KORNACKI: He kind of let the country laugh at him, never really went after him.
Bill Clinton had Roger Clinton, you just sort of go along with it and you don`t get into it.
BEHAR: Embarrassed by relatives.
KORNACKI: If you provoke a fight this is what happens.
I mean, this is making her into, you know -- look, I think ships sailed with her presidential ambitions a long time but if anything was still alive in terms of, not her ambitions but in terms of the plausibility -- if anything was still alive, it`s dying fast.
BEHAR: I was just talking in the previous segment, that 70 percent of Americans think she`s not qualified to be president. Who are the 30 percent that think she is?
KORNACKI: She`s the classic 25/75, 30/70 candidate where you have this core group, the 25 percent, 30 percent that loves you. I would liken her in a way just in terms of politics to Pat Robertson. If you remember when he ran for president, 70 percent of the country at least...
BEHAR: Or Ralph Nader.
KORNACKI: Probably more were scared of this guy.
BEHAR: More than Ralph Nader had.
KORNACKI: There is that core problem and she`s got it too. But I think primarily she`s a cultural figure now not a political figure.
BEHAR: Ok.
Well, you know, we have that picture, a "Playgirl" picture. I just heard -- I just heard that we have a "Playgirl" pick posted on "The Daily News" Web site. Let`s see this.
BEHAR: Oh it`s just from the head up?
KORNACKI: Oh, come on. I could do that.
BEHAR: What`s this, what is he doing, this? This is like a pose I do with my trainer lady.
ORTIZ: It`s not quite as embarrassing as the A-Rod kissing himself in the mirror pictures but it`s getting there.
BEHAR: We hear that he posed with a hockey stick, I`m just saying. I don`t know what that`s about.
MCKEAN: How much of the hockey stick is needed of course, that`s still open to speculation.
BEHAR: Well that would determine his popularity.
MCKEAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Sarah Palin is crying foul over the cover of "Newsweek" magazine. Not about the question of whether or not she`s a problem but over the photo that they used.
Here is the picture. They`re saying that it`s sexist, people are saying it`s sexist. Get a close-up look there. OK?
ORTIZ: I hate to agree with Sarah Palin but I have to say it`s really -- it`s such bad form I can`t believe "Newsweek" would do it.
BEHAR: You think so?
ORTIZ: Yes. I really do.
MCKEAN: Did they buy this from "Runner`s World"? Is "Runner`s World" owned by the same outfit that owns "Newsweek"? I don`t know what...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, I don`t know. I don`t know the details of that. Do you know it Steve?
KORNACKI: No. It was "Runner`s World" photo but it`s not at all shocking when you think that "newsweek`s" circulation is down; their revenues are down and they`re basically struggling to survive. So what do you do? You put a picture on and you let everybody call you sexist and we`re talking about it on national TV.
(CROSSTALK)
MCKEAN: If you had a male politician in what he runs in, if it was shorts, if it was, you know, Willie Nelson running suit that we all kind of stand still in, regardless, it wouldn`t be a sexist issue. They would be wearing sex-appropriate clothes which I think she is.
BEHAR: Is it possible that it`s about the flag that she`s so ticked off though?
MCKEANS: That`s what`s the weirdest thing.
BEHAR: Because when she first posed with this picture for "Runner`s World" they were saying that it was just sort of insulting to the flag; that she was disrespectful to the flag.
MCKEAN: This is not correct treatment. She can`t say you didn`t notice it right there at her elbow.
BEHAR: Right. So she didn`t want it to be seen again maybe. Would like it to go bye-bye because Ms. American patriotism and everything.
MCKEAN: She hasn`t mentioned the flag. She`s only talking about this is sexist and what have you.
BEHAR: On another note wasn`t Obama seen in a picture where he was kind of topless?
KORNACKI: He didn`t pose for that, some paparazzi or whatever took that when he was on vacation.
BEHAR: Well, it`s ok. So in a way it`s even more insulting to him. She actually posed for this.
KORNACKI: Yes.
MCKEAN: Right.
BEHAR: Take the responsibility for it.
MCKEAN: What is that machine in her hand?
ORTIZ: Her Blackberry.
BEHAR: I don`t know. Ask Levi.
Thanks to all my guests. And be sure to check out "Ugly Betty" on Friday nights at 9:00 on ABC. And the "Spinal Tap" tour DVD "Unwigged and Unplugged" is now on sale.
When we come back, an Army cook who chose her baby over her call to duty. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Alexis Hutchinson is a cook in the United States Army. She`s also the single mother of a 10-month-old. She`s been ordered to Afghanistan but she can`t find anyone to take care of her son so she`s not going and now she`s in a lot of trouble.
Here now to discuss this story is Alexis Hutchinson`s attorney, Rai Sue Sussmann. Rai Sue, thanks for joining me. Is your client an AWOL soldier or desperate single mom with nowhere to turn?
RAI SUE SUSSMAN, ALEXIS HUTCHINSON`S ATTORNEY: Well she was AWOL for less than 24 hours and then she voluntarily returned to the Military with her baby. At that point the Military although they had other options decided that they would arrest her and put her in jail and took her child from her and placed him in Child Protective Services even though she had voluntarily returned to the Army.
BEHAR: Where is the baby now?
SUSSMAN: The baby -- when the baby`s grandmother, Specialist Hutchinson`s mother found out that Kamani was going to foster care in Georgia, she got on a plane and went and got him out of foster care in Georgia, and she took him back to Oakland. However, she maintains that she can`t take care of him in the long-term.
BEHAR: Why not? She has other people to take care of?
SUSSMANN: She`s got other people to take care of. She herself has a young daughter who has special needs and medical issues. She also is one of the primary caregivers for her ailing and aging mother. And she just found out that her sister`s medical problems are about to get a lot worse so her sister had asked for extra care for herself and her family
BEHAR: And Hutchinson, where is she now?
SUSSMAN: She`s currently under heavy restriction on her base at Hunter Army Air Field in Georgia.
BEHAR: They`re just holding her?
SUSSMANN: They`re just holding her there, and she`s under 24-hour watch from what I can understand.
BEHAR: OK, the Army released a statement saying "The chain of command has a legal obligation to the citizens of the United States to investigate and deal fairly with Specialist Hutchinson`s alleged misconduct. Anything less would be irresponsible to our citizens and the thousands and thousands of soldiers who have deployed overseas despite difficult personal situations."
Is that being fair to your client? I mean, they do have a lot of other people who would like to have special treatment, and they can`t give it to everybody. So what do you say to that?
SUSSMANN: I think that the way they treated her was not fair. The Army when presented with her child care emergency had other options for how they dealt with her. They did not have to arrest her and they did not have to remove her child from her. The Army in fact, has regulations -- at this point the Army has 85,000 single parents, and so they do have regulations for how to deal fairly when single parents in the Army have child care emergencies or child care failures.
BEHAR: Well, my information is that more than 30,000 single mothers have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.
SUSSMAN: I have that -- I have heard that number, too, and I also have a number that since 9/11 115,000 single parents of both sexes have been sent in the war on terror, have been deployed.
BEHAR: Thank you very much, Rai Sue.
Coming up next: sex addicts and Dr. Drew. Back in a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My primary addiction whether I like it or not is a sexual one. I mean it`s not, like even though drugs and alcohol played a huge part, and I got sober, really, all of the stuff that preceded that and all the history when I look at it now as a recovering sex addict, is all, has all been about sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a clip from the VH-1 show "sex rehab with Dr. Drew." you may think that sex addiction is just typical reality show fodder but between 3% and 6% of the American population say they are sex addicts. Recently I had a chance to talk to Dr. Drew Pinsky and two sex addicts from his VH-1 show, British Film Director Duncan Roy and Playboy Playmate Nicole Lorraine. I started the discussion by telling Nicole; I saw her Colin Farrell`s sex tape.
NICOLE LORRAINE, SEX ADDICT: I can`t see you watching that but that`s cool, I guess.
BEHAR: I had my secrets. So Steve Phillips, you know this guy?
Yep.
BEHAR: ESPN, he has - he has sex with a 22-year-old. He gets caught and goes to sex rehab. Is he really a sex addict or is he just a horny guy?
DR. DREW PINSKY, SEX REHAB WITH DR. DREW: Well look, we obviously don`t know him but I do know he had to meet the criteria for sexual addiction or to be admitted to a program that treats sexual addicts. Now if people get sort of glib about this because they say, well, it`s an excuse. If he hadn`t been caught. Substitute cocaine instead of sex and it`s the same thing. The courts bring people to treatment, the families bring people to treatment, and the doctors bring people to treatment. It`s relatively rare people stand up, I think I need to get my cocaine addiction treated today. Unless they have a near death experience. The sex addiction is the exact same way.
BEHAR: Somebody has to --
PINSKY: You have to --
BEHAR: You have to get caught or something likes that.
PINSKY: There has to be sufficient consequences to motivate you to want to change this thing.
DUNCAN ROY, BRITISH FILM DIRECTOR: Also, you know what; he was accused of taking the easy way out by going into rehab, as I heard you on The View saying that the other day. But the point is, the easy way out is to leave your wife and end up in a hotel room with coke and hookers. That`s the easy way out for a sex addict, not to stand up and say, you know what, I`m putting my hands up, I need help.
BEHAR: I don`t remember saying that was the easy way out. You`re getting me mixed up with Whoopi Goldberg.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Easy thing to do.
BEHAR: OK what about Letterman, what do you think about that case?
PINSKY: I don`t know what that`s all about. The one that sort of stands out as an easy one in the history record book is Bill Clinton. That`s an easy one to go, somebody who had horrible consequences from what seems to be an addictive process.
BEHAR: Do you think he`s addicted to sex or no self-control? What`s the difference?
ROY: Doctor goes ahead. Nicole wanted to ring in, too.
BEHAR: Nicole, ring in.
LORRAINE: Well, the thing is, I spoke to Dr. Drew about this recently because I was struggling with the fact that I had so many questions after I was on the show, and I explained to him that you know, being a sex addict, and being someone who is, you know, addicted to love, where being, being a love addict and having that fear of abandonment, and that underlying fear of intimacy, I was asking him, how do you deem yourself recovered from that, whereas I think it`s a lot more treatable to be recovered from being a sex addict, where, you know, like in Duncan`s case, you know, being online eight, nine hours a day just watching porn I would imagine at some point that can be recovered.
BEHAR: Not to mention the carpal tunnel syndrome.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know, but is there a difference between a female addict and male addict? The way she describes it, it sounds more like women who love too much.
PINSKY: Women tend to statistically come to sex addiction through love addiction, so they have these elaborate fantasies. We`ve all had them; we`ve been teenagers and outgrow them. Some people get stuck in them; Romeo and Juliet were love addicts and people look at that and point that out as a reason that romance should be sort of defended. The outcome there wasn`t so good. If one of my patients ended up like that I wouldn`t be too happy. BEHAR: Yes, but that whole - listen, Romeo and Juliet is because of the families disagreed. Didn`t you see "West Side Story" it`s the same thing.
PINSKY: Let`s finish the point. The fantasy becomes paramount when there`s a real relationship, intimacy is disorderly, not tolerated, and they cheat. And have to have the sexual -
BEHAR: I see.
ROY: Also, the myth about sex.
(CROSSTALK)
LORRAINE: It`s hard to -
ROY: The myth about -
BEHAR: Hold on -- hold on Nicole.
LORRAINE: OK.
ROY: The myth about sex addiction is it`s about sex, it`s not. It`s about filling the same void, the alcohol, and the drugs --
BEHAR: Yes, there`s emptiness.
ROY: That`s right, so sex addiction is about -- it`s about intrigue, it`s about flirtation. Those are just as important, pornography.
BEHAR: How much is danger involved in all of it, too?
ROY: For me a lot?
BEHAR: Yes, for you.
ROY: For me, a lot - a lot, I mean I was completely obsessed with dangerous sexual encounters with strange guys, usually straight identified guys who had been the last time I relapsed was in token square park with a cop with a gun at my head.
BEHAR: So it`s more about the thrill of the danger getting caught?
ROY: Well, for me it`s about replicating the trauma and so -
BEHAR: OK, let`s talk about the trauma.
PINSKY: Do you understand that?
BEHAR: I understand you had a trauma as a young child which is very serious thing.
ROY: We can laugh about it.
BEHAR: No, I can`t laugh about that. We`ll move on to other things that are funny but this is not. Because you were basically raped by your stepfather, am I right?
ROY: From 2 to 13.
BEHAR: 2 years old, that is not funny.
ROY: But you know the average age of sex abuse against kids is about 2 to 3 years old, that`s the average age. So people are abusing infants that are what happens.
PINSKY: It`s unbelievable. We have sort of come through a wave of this, that is just spectacular and the consequences in adulthood are the replication of the traumas through sexual acting out and compulsively repeating traumas over and over again, by becoming a prostitute, by becoming a stripper, by going for dangerous situations, whatever it might be, people compulsively replicate these things.
BEHAR: Do all sex addicts have child abuse in their past?
PINSKY: Not all but it`s very common.
BEHAR: Very common, was Nicole were you sexually abused as a child, Nicole?
LORRAINE: I definitely grew up having my boundaries violated definitely.
PINSKY: And neglect, too, abandonment.
BEHAR: Neglect and abandonment.
LORRAINE: Right, right -- I was kicked out at 16 years old, so you know, I had to learn survival at such a young age, and before being, you know, and on top of that, having your boundaries violated, that confusion doesn`t really help, now that, you know, like I`m out there in the world in the streets by myself, it`s like okay, what do I do now? How do I handle all of this stuff? What`s right? What`s wrong? Where do I go find comfort, and what man and how do I trust that man?
PINSKY: Well said.
BEHAR: Well said how she puts it succinctly. Duncan can you talk about your addiction on the show? Can we take a look at that clip?
ROY: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
When I`m at my home pornography is very debilitating. I`m talking about getting up in the morning, seven days a week and sitting at my computer all day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, how much does the internet actually play in all of this?
ROY: There`s a huge problem with the internet because the internet -- you want to do this?
PINSKY: No, I want you to do it. I`ll sprinkle -
BEHAR: You`re on the internet.
PINSKY: I`ll sprinkle the highlights on top of it.
ROY: I`m the one that`s on the internet, I`m the one. The problem with the internet is that in years gone by before the internet came, you know, people would find images and they`d be the same kind of images and if they evolved sexually through into wanting to see other more dangerous things, it would be very hard for them. Now you`re only three clicks away from something that would land you in prison and that`s a huge, you know, when we`re talking about unmanageability and powerlessness.
PINSKY: You got to remember it`s really changed the landscape, having this portal on everyone`s desk is like having a crack pipe for the sex addict on their desk all the time.
BEHAR: Really, okay. And let me ask Nicole, how bad did your addiction get, Nicole? I understand you were in masturbation a lot.
LORRAINE: Right.
BEHAR: Isn`t that from anxiety, all that masturbating?
PINSKY: It`s a way of managing feelings.
LORRAINE: You know what? I really try hard not to think about masturbating too much. I had a moment there where I really did, could not get out of bed one day because it was a constant thing. That was an exhausting day. I didn`t want to eat food because that was my food for the day. It was exhausting, and it was scary, because it consumed my entire day, and I try very hard to not have any triggers around, you know, around me where I would feel like I need to masturbate today because I`m fearful of not getting out of bed for the day but -- I`m definitely a lot better. I`m still human, don`t get me wrong.
BEHAR: Yes.
LORRAINE: We all have to clean the pipes once in a while.
BEHAR: Masturbation like that is an addiction? I mean if you stopped eating.
PINSKY: Sure.
BEHAR: It could cure your addiction to food. Think about it that way. Everyone, more to come. Stick around. Always look on the bright side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: OK, that was a clip from the VH-1 show "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew." Dr. Drew, ok, let me ask you how do you treat sexual addiction? What do you do?
PINSKY: It`s different than other addictions it`s so deeply embedded who the person is and also deeply embedded in trauma as we talked about. The big difference for me was that you leap very quickly into very heavy landscape; very deep issues come up very quickly and are done in an evocative fashion. Lots of education in sex rehab. Drug addicts won`t sit through the education sexual addict`s candidates sort of gobble up. It`s really interesting. When you have the appropriate candidate at the appropriate level of care they really respond well to it and so a sex rehab treatment center has got to have patients that have tolerate evocation. A lot of intense feelings.
BEHAR: Yes.
PINSKY: That can sit through lecture and learn about things. And really has to be willing to change with stuff that`s subtle and deeply embedded who they are.
BEHAR: You can`t have A.D.D. at the same time.
PINSKY: It`s difficult but some people do.
BEHAR: Yes.
ROY: You`ve been working with --
PINSKY: Chemical addicts.
ROY: Chemical addicts and you were really surprised by the way they responded.
PINSKY: Well we put together this great team and I sort of inserted myself into the team. And the way these guys their courage was spectacular and the way they let into the process was something new for me compared to what drug addicts do who resist the process or if they leap in and use it as a reason to go do drugs.
BEHAR: But sex addiction is harder you say?
PINSKY: It`s harder, it`s more painful -
BEHAR: It`s hard to cure.
PINSKY: Longer.
ROY: 13 years by the time I hit this wall.
PINSKY: Chemical.
ROY: I`m sorry -- I`ve been sober from drugs and alcohol for 13 years,
BEHAR: 13 years.
ROY: And then about eight months before I did the show I really hit this wall in my sobriety where I realized I had transferred all of my addictions into sex and internet and all the other stuff that I was doing.
BEHAR: That`s an interesting point to me, that people who are addicted to one thing, they give that up, and then they pick up another addiction.
PINSKY: They can, yes, they can. Addiction is a motivational disturbance in the deep recesses of the brain, there`s no logic, no reason, no language, just a motivational disturbance.
BEHAR: So now you gave up booze and drugs.
ROY: Yes.
BEHAR: And you`ve been rehabilitated as a sex addict, right, Duncan? Almost?
ROY: You know there`s no cure for addiction. It`s a progressive --
BEHAR: Yes.
ROY: -- condition, which can be arrested. All I have to do on a daily basis is arrest my condition. I mean that`s really all I can do.
PINSKY: That`s right and Nicole was saying that sex addiction is so deeply emotional which is very much that point, it`s so much of an emotional process, yes, Nicole?
LORRAINE: Because there`s so much trauma, that`s the difference between being the sex addict and dealing with the abandonment and intimacy issues which is way more traumatizing and you`re dealing with a lot more emotions so.
BEHAR: It`s very interesting how some addicts become very religious, I notice. They become extremely -
PINSKY: Spiritual.
BEHAR: George Bush was an alcoholic and then he became very, very religious and it was all about the Lord. It`s like another addiction in a certain way.
PINSKY: Addicts are prone to extremities, they really are.
BEHAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Religiosity and all, I don`t see that that much. You`d be surprised. Yes I agree with that case but I don`t see that much.
ROY: George Bush would have appreciated a 12-step program I`m sure.
BEHAR: He should have gone through it.
ROY: He would have been a better guy, I`m sure.
BEHAR: On your show you have eight good-looking sex addicts living together? Isn`t that a recipe for disaster?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Well maybe on the Joy Behar Sex Program. But in mine it`s a professional environment. Just like, we would keep a bunch of drug addicts together. Yes, drugs addicts do drugs, they do them together.
BEHAR: Yes, but drugs addicts are different because there`s no drugs around but people are there, good looking people.
ROY: But we really wanted it. That`s the difference.
BEHAR: We really wanted what?
PINSKY: Sobriety.
ROY: I really wanted sexual sobriety and a lot of those people were desperate, my friend Jenny, all of the people had come to the end of the road. You know, of course there was flirtation and kind of the immediate kind of like oh, yeah, that`s cute or this is cute but the point is that you wanted sobriety more than you wanted to get laid again.
PINSKY: And we helped them in that, had them dress a certain way, not allowed to touch each other. We were on them constantly.
BEHAR: During the night? Come on.
PINSKY: It`s impossible.
ROY: We were in bed by 10:00.
PINSKY: We were on them. We had nursing staff on them. Just the way we watch for drugs and alcohol in the unit we watch for sex and improprieties. The only thing we cannot monitor was masturbation. We trusted them to tell us when and they did tell us when that happen.
ROY: Once.
BEHAR: Nicole did you confess about that?
LORRAINE: No I didn`t.
PINSKY: She made it.
LORRAINE: I made it through.
BEHAR: She made it, good for you, and good for you.
LORRAINE: Thanks.
BEHAR: Well, they`re all gorgeous people. Are there any ugly sex addicts that you treat? Are all of them gorgeous?
PINSKY: I don`t cast these shows. I try to not get involved at all because to me, if I come upon somebody and they need treatment I can`t say wait the cameras heat up in a couple of months. I stay out of that part as much as I can.
BEHAR: OK, and there are more women than men which I had a question about that, because I think that mostly sex addicts are male?
PINSKY: I think explicitly sex addicts but a lot of love addicts flirting with sexual addiction.
BEHAR: The women get a spin, love addicts. The men are sex addicts.
ROY: I think the appropriate --
LORRAINE: But you know what, it`s funny, I wish there was almost a different name for love addict because it sounds so, like, oh, so sweet and trite.
BEHAR: It`s codependency, sort of.
PINSKY: It is, yes.
LORRAINE: But I mean it`s such a deeper issue when you`re dealing with abandonment and intimacy issues. I didn`t know there was a difference between sex and love. I thought they were the same thing until I did the show.
BEHAR: A lot of people make that mistake. You`re not alone in that.
PINSKY: That is true but that`s how people get in trouble right there. Listen, we live in a time when this country we have destroyed intimacy. We just have. And the substitute for that are arousing activities and extreme sports and intensity and power and control. That is not intimacy. We`ve lost track of that. Our families have been disrupted for a long time and so we don`t have good models for intimacy and sex becomes the surrogate or fantasy becomes the surrogate. That`s what any dole is talking about.
BEHAR: And you -
LORRAINE: And a lot of my relationships that`s what I dealt with. I lived most of my relationships in intensity rather than intimacy.
BEHAR: Are you both abstinent now? You can tour with Sarah Palin.
ROY: The thing about it is, this is what people get confused about with sex addiction is that you have to define your own bottom line. You know, for me I`m not allowed to joke off impulsively. Sorry, I`m not allowed to masturbate impulsively, I`m not allowed to look at internet porn, I`m not allowed to look up hookup sites, I`m not allowed - but actually I`m allowed to have sex with consenting adults because I was.
BEHAR: The danger thing, you don`t feel that anymore?
ROY: That`s absolutely the bottom line. This thing is the absolutely worst thing --
BEHAR: That`s a tough one. More when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guest, Dr. Drew Pinsky from the VH-1 show "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew" and Duncan Roy and playboy playmate Nicole Marine. I have questions from people who tweeted and twittered and all that. Let me read a couple of them. We went through this, what are the differences between male and female. We know that one is love and one is sex, sort of.
PINSKY: They end up in the same place often the roads there tend to be different.
BEHAR: This is from Eve Bear; do you think the way we Americans view sex has something to do with the problem of sexual addiction?
PINSKY: I don`t. People make a big deal of that -- that we are so prudish and puritanical. I don`t see that. I see nothing but sex everywhere in the country. You come from another country.
BEHAR: You`re from England, I take it?
ROY: I don`t see it as being prudish but see you as having strict ideas about the whole gay, straight thing. For me, that`s so American because I think people have a lot more sexual fluidity in Europe than they do here. A lot of my male friends have had encounters with other men but here, they`d be, oh, he`s in the closet, he`s in denial. It`s just like, ok, I tried it, it wasn`t for me, move on.
BEHAR: That`s why people say all the Brits are gay. Now we know why.
ROY: Strangely enough, most straight men would encourage women to, like, maybe perform for them, you know, to women. That`s like a big straight fantasy - so I mean, you know, what does that mean for most women? That they`re really closeted lesbians? I don`t think so.
BEHAR: It`s different for women?
ROY: Oh why? Because they couldn`t get home?
BEHAR: I don`t know. I don`t know. Explain to me, like, you know, when we talk about pedophilia or exhibitionism. Those are really -- are another category of sexual addictions are they not?
PINSKY: They can be another category or they could also be a part of a sexual addiction. But there are things that can be treated often times - -
BEHAR: Yes, there`s pedophilia, I think is - they have a lot of trouble treating those people.
PINSKY: One of the things we tell patients is get help before you hurt somebody else or yourself. Because that -- Those roads you go down --
BEHAR: How about medication? Does that work at all?
PINSKY: Medicine has a role to be played but really only in certain diagnostic situations. It`s not treatment for sexual addiction, per se.
BEHAR: Let me do another run. Jana was married to a sex addicts if more than 20 years. He needed the danger, the threat of being caught and the possibility of dying during sex.
PINSKY: Well, Duncan said that`s him, too. Here`s the --
BEHAR: Of dying. Did you ever feel that?
ROY: I was trying to replicate what I was doing when I was a kid. When you are being raped when you are 4 years old you are kind of dying. Do you know what I mean? The pain is overwhelming. You think -- you`re being challenged in so many ways. Finding that as an adult often takes you into very, very terrible places.
BEHAR: Let me get a last word from Nicole. Nicole, do you feel like you`re almost over this? Where are you in all this?
LORRAINE: I guess I`m in Los Angeles right now.
BEHAR: No, I mean, where are you emotionally?
LORRAINE: Oh.
(LAUGHTER)
LORRAINE: That might have said it. I`m not sure.
BEHAR: I think you`re right.
LORRAINE: I`m so glad I dyed my hair back brown. Where am I recovering? Believe it or not, I feel really good about my recovery right now. I actually haven`t even had sex in, like, over a month and that`s just my choice.
BEHAR: Good for you. She`s better.
LORRAINE: Yeah. I`m single.
BEHAR: Hear that, fellows? She`s single. Thanks to all my guests tonight and thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
