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Civilian vs. Military Trial; Hillary Clinton on Surprise Trip to Kabul; DUI, With Conditions

Aired November 18, 2009 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICHARD LIU, CNN ANCHOR: The attorney general says it was a tough choice. He knew he would catch heat for it, but Eric Holder says civilian court in New York is the place to try the alleged brains behind the 9/11 attacks. Holder says he can get convictions against the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four alleged henchmen you see here. He says he's not worried about any potential courtroom rants and not worried that classified information will be leaked.

But some Senate Judiciary members think Holder is making a big mistake by putting these guys right here through the federal criminal justice system and not before a military commission instead. Arizona Senator John Kyl is asking buy do this? Especially when Mohammad wants to plead guilty before a military commission and be executed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: It would seem to me that given the fact...

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I've decided that Article 3 courts were the best place to do that.

KYL: Right. I know that...

HOLDER: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not making this decision. The attorney general is...

KYL: Of course he's not. Mr. Attorney General, you've based this on where you think you're more likely to get a conviction. You've talked about the best chance to prosecute, the chances of success are enhanced, and so on. One of the factors has to be the fact that he has at least at some time asked to plead guilty. I mean, you had to have taken that into account.

HOLDER: That was then. I don't know what Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wants to do now. And I'm not going to base the determination on where these cases ought to be brought on what a terrorist, what a murderer wants to do.

He will not select the prosecution venue. I will select it, and I have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUI: Well, Holder has the blessing of his boss. The president is in Asia right now, but talked with our own Ed Henry about this trial decision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: While we have been in Asia, your attorney general decided that there were going to be civil prosecutions of the 9/11 mastermind, other terror suspects.

Did you sign off on that?

OBAMA: You know, I said to the attorney general, "Make a decision based on the law." We have set up now a military commission system that is greatly reformed, and so we can try terrorists in that forum.

But I also have great confidence in our Article 3 courts, the courts that have tried hundreds of terrorists suspects who are imprisoned right now in the United States. And, you know, I think this notion that somehow we have to be fearful that these terrorists possess some special powers that prevent us from presenting evidence against them, locking them up and, you know, exacting swift justice, I think that has been a fundamental mistake.

HENRY: So, that was his decision, but you'll take responsibility if it goes wrong?

OBAMA: I always have to take responsibility. That's my job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUI: All right. The issues here really spotlight how different this war is and how it's challenging the justice system.

So, is Holder making a mistake bringing the suspects to federal court in New York, like his critics say, or has he made the right choice?

Let's talk it over with Karen Greenberg. She's executive director at the NYU Center on Law and Security.

Karen, thanks for joining us today.

I want to start immediately with this question: Eric Holder, the attorney general, saying that they have successfully tried terrorists in federal courts before, some 100 times before, and that it will be better this time around as well.

Talk to that.

KAREN GREENBERG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NYU CENTER OF LAW AND SECURITY: Well, I think it will be done as well this time as it's been done in the past. Prior to 9/11, we tried the World Trade Center One bombing, we tried the embassy bombings. We did it successfully, the terrorists were convicted, they're serving life sentences.

This is something the New York courts and the federal courts know how to do, and it's something they should have been doing recently. And this is a good chance to do it.

LUI: OK. I want to go straight to a sound bite now from Senator Lindsey Graham. He was asking the attorney general this. Then I'd like to get your reaction.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I'll tell you right now, we're making history, and we're making bad history. And let me tell you why. If bin Laden were caught tomorrow, would it be the position of the administration that he would be brought to justice?

HOLDER: He would certainly be brought to justice, absolutely.

GRAHAM: Where would you try him?

HOLDER: Well, we would go through our protocol, and we would make the determination about where he should appropriately be tried.

GRAHAM: Would you try him -- why would you take him someplace different than KSM?

HOLDER: Well, that might be the case. I don't know. I would have to look at all of the evidence, all of the -- he's been indicted already.

GRAHAM: Well, does it matter if you use the law enforcement theory or the enemy combatant theory in terms of how the case would be handled?

HOLDER: Well, I mean, bin Laden's an interesting case in that he's already been indicted in federal court.

GRAHAM: Right.

HOLDER: We have cases against him.

GRAHAM: Right. Well, where would you put him?

HOLDER: It would depend on how...

GRAHAM: Well, let me ask you this.

HOLDER: A variety of factors.

GRAHAM: OK. Let me ask you this. Let's say we capture him tomorrow. When does custodial interrogation begin in his case? If we captured bin Laden tomorrow, would he be entitled to Miranda warnings at the moment of capture?

HOLDER: Again, that all depends.

(CROSSTALK) GRAHAM: Well, it does not depend. If you're going to prosecute anybody in civilian court, our law is clear that the moment custodial interrogation occurs, the defendant, the criminal defendant, is entitled to a lawyer and to be informed of their right to remain silent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUI: Karen Greenberg, the attorney general really seems up against the wall there during that questioning from the GOP senator, Lindsey Graham. Can you boil down for us what Lindsey Graham is asking? And that is, why would there be different protocols based on what we know today?

GREENBERG: I'm not sure there would be different protocols. I think what the attorney general is trying to do is to say, don't make me make this public statement right now, we are focused on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, we're not focused on Osama bin Laden.

This administration very much wants to empower the federal courts, which did not have this kind of power under the Bush administration to be able to try these crimes. Obviously, the biggest symbol of trying these crimes would be Osama bin Laden. And minus him, it is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

In terms of mirandizing, I'm not sure exactly that that would play out the way Senator Graham said. I think there is an issue of safety. If there is an issue of safety, we might not have to mirandize them, but there would have to be a lawyer early on.

I think this can all play out. I think that Attorney General Holder did not want to answer these questions because, ultimately, he cannot make the decision, and he probably does want to look through what the charges would be, what the circumstances of capture were, et cetera.

LUI: Karen, I want to squeeze this in before we have to go here. There's some concern by critics that say, you know, during the process of this hearing, some details might be released that al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations may not have access to otherwise.

Is that a concern here?

GREENBERG: Well, it depends on who you ask and it depends on how you understand what the administration did in terms of making decisions for who to try in federal court and who to try under the military commissions. The military commissions will have a different level of evidence that can be introduced, a different standard. And I think the issue here is that Attorney General Holder has said he has referred this to the courts with a great confidence that this kind of national security material would not have be revealed in court in order to make their case.

Now, obviously we don't know exactly what's going to happen, but he's trying to say that if he thought it would compromise sources and methods and national security and information, he would have referred it most likely to military commissions. And I think we need to see how this is going to play out, and that we should trust him that he thinks he can get this conviction, and we can see how this trial goes.

LUI: All right. A lot of eyes will be watching how this plays out, as you say.

Karen Greenberg from the NYU Center on Law and Security.

Thank you for stopping by and trying to shed some light on what's happened today and what Eric Holder, the attorney general, has said today. Thank you again.

GREENBERG: Thanks for having me.

LUI: You bet.

Right after the hearing, Holder, by the way, talked with people who lost loved ones on 9/11. Many are upset. They want the suspects tried elsewhere before a military commission. One lady who lost a loved one on Flight 93 telling Holder she is worried the trial will make New York City more dangerous and a target, and that it will give the defendants too much media access.

All right. Moving you now to Afghanistan, a country in search of stability, but also change. Security, but also independence.

Secretary of State Clinton is on a surprise trip to Kabul for tomorrow's swearing in of the reelected president, Hamid Karzai. She says it's a critical moment.

And CNN's Sara Sidner joins me to count the ways. She, too, is in the Afghan capital.

And given all the concerns about the reliability of Hamid Karzai, Sara, is Secretary Clinton carrying a specific message that is particularly sharp at this moment?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She certainly is, and has talked a bit about that, first saying that she came here to really look at where everyone is and what they might do in the future. But the message is all about corruption, corruption, corruption, and getting President Karzai to rid his administration of such mass corruption.

And what she has been saying is basically that the sort of government here has to get a hold and get an entity in place in the government that can stamp out corruption and really show that it's doing something instead of giving it a lot of lip service. So, that, I think, has been the main message that she has brought.

But also, she is obviously here to show her support for President Karzai after his administration and himself have gone through quite a time here in Afghanistan. Obviously, the election in the first place in August was mired in fraud, and then you had a reelection that never happened because the runoff candidate said that corruption had not been stamped out and that he didn't have a chance. So, you're really looking at a situation where people are trying to come in, there are world leaders, there are entities and officials from all over the world coming into Afghanistan to try to show their support. But at the same time, there's a caveat that he has to get a handle, Mr. Karzai, on corruption in this country.

LUI: Well, Sara, I guess the point that you're bringing up -- and there are many here -- is that the question of legitimacy for Hamid Karzai. Does the presence of the secretary of state help that, as well as the other leaders? And for that matter, the Afghans, how are they reacting to yet another Karzai administration?

SIDNER: Well, as far as how the Afghans are reacting, it's very hard to give you a pat answer on that because there are so many diverse people and diverse regions here. But in general, the Afghans here are looking at the administration with a bit of hope, hoping, really, that the administration can attack and address the unemployment rate here, which is about 40 percent. People really want jobs, and that's what they want the focus to be on for the most part in talking to people in Kabul and outside of Kabul.

But as far as legitimacy, I think that the administration, especially the Obama administration and Hillary Clinton herself, has said that, obviously, this government has looked at the legal means by which President Karzai will take his second term, and that they have discovered that, legally, he is the president. So, she is lending her voice to say that, yes, he is a legitimate president of this country. But again, everyone is looking to see if he can really do something about corruption which makes his legitimacy less here.

LUI: 11:40 p.m., Kabul, Afghanistan. Sara Sidner following, again, the inauguration, which will be happening tomorrow. She's on top of that story.

Thank you again so much for that.

How can we make sure it never happens again? The question before the Senate Homeland Security Committee right now, as it look into the shooting rampage at Fort Hood. Senator Susan Collins wondering if the red flags were there but the communication was not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: Once again, in the wake of a mass murder, we must confront a troubling question. Was this once again a failure to connect the dots? Were there inexcusable gaps and communications failures and failures to act on compelling evidence that might have allowed us to prevent the attack at Fort Hood?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUI: Collins is the ranking Republican member of the committee. Senator Joe Lieberman is the chair there.

In just a few minutes for you, the state of West Virginia will honor a Democrat it sent to Washington back in 1953 and kept there to this day. For Robert Byrd, this is day number 20,774 in the U.S. Congress. Write that down.

And need I add, it is a record? Byrd spent the first six years in the House, then moved to the Senate, where his passion for procedures is legendary, as is the spending he funnels back home.

Tributes are pouring in from both parties, and a ceremony starts at the West Virginia state house at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, a little less than an hour from now.

Congratulations.

Tougher DUI laws depending on your passengers. If you drive drunk, it's bad enough, but if you've got kids in the car, well, New York lawmakers say it's time to really make you pay.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: Despite the bad economy, more folks in the United States say they plan to travel more this Thanksgiving than last. According to AAA, 38.4 million U.S. citizens say they will travel 50 miles or more from home next weekend. That's up by 1.4 percent, if you look at the data.

Quite a bump up considering last year's staycations, when Thanksgiving travel nose-dived by more than 25 percent. Much of that attributed to the financial meltdown that we have been following for you.

Here's something to consider. Is one drunk driver worse than the other? New York lawmakers apparently think so, passing what they say is the toughest DUI law to date in the country, but with some stipulations here.

Reporter Curtis Schick from Capital New 9 explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LENNY ROASDO, DAUGHTER KILLED BY DRUNK DRIVER: When her life was taken, I was devastated.

CURTIS SCHICK, REPORTER, CAPITAL 9 NEWS (voice-over): Lenny Rosado chokes back tears as he talks about his 11-year-old daughter Leandra. She died in a crash on a New York City highway last month. The car's driver was drunk.

ROSADO: I know she spoke to me. She told me, "Dad, you've got to fight now."

SCHICK: So Rosado got to work. For the last month, he's lobbied for stronger laws for people who drive drunk when there are kids in the car. Early versions of the law only made it a misdemeanor. He believed it should be a felony, so he's held protests and got people to sign petitions. And eventually, assembly and Senate leaders saw it Rosado's way.

SHELDON SILVER, NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: I'm sorry it took so long, but the success is the fact that we're doing a bill that is going to be acknowledged as the toughest in the country.

SCHICK: Assembly leaders say the key piece of the law was never up for debate.

SILVER: The most practical deterrent is the interlock device. And that was always in our legislation.

SCHICK: The assembly bill passed late Tuesday, and Silver says interlock devices will now be mandatory for all DWU-related convictions. But the Senate bill will wait until after it passes a deficit reduction plan. And Rosado says when Leandra's Law does pass, he'll be here.

ROSADO: It will reflect on my daughter, you know, her life. We accomplished something --that my daughter's death wasn't in vain. And now my daughter's death is going to save many lives out there.

SCHICK (on camera): Now, the woman driving the car, Carmen Weritas (ph), faces multiple charges, including manslaughter for causing Leandra's death.

In Albany, I'm Curtis Schick.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LUI: A hook-up high above the Earth. The Space Shuttle Atlantis docking with the International Space Station. We'll take you out of this world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: All right. Top stories now.

Growing outrage after a government task force said most women under 50 do not need mammograms. Now Kathleen Sebelius is trying to calm the storm. The health secretary has this to say about the task force and its recommendations: "They do not set federal policy and they don't determine what services are covered by the federal government." Going on to say, "My message to women is simple: keep doing what you have been doing for years -- talk to your doctor about your individual history, ask questions, and make a decision that is right for you."

Remember the swim club near Philadelphia accused of discrimination last summer? It's filed for bankruptcy now. A day camp paid for African-American and Latino kids to swim at the valley club, but during their first visit in June, two children said they heard racial comments and the camp's payment was refunded. The club denied any discrimination and said there were more children than available lifeguards at that time.

And do not let go of that Eggo. Floodwaters are partly to blame for a shortage of the popular waffles, if you like them.

Kellogg had to shut down one of its bakeries in Atlanta last month, and full production is still months away of those Eggos. One Eggo fan had this to say on Twitter: "I am despondent. My four food groups are tacos, Skittles, pop and Eggos."

(WEATHER REPORT)

LUI: It's a haven for babies left alone in the world. Some very big babies, in fact. An orphanage in Kenya specializes in sheltering and protecting Africa's elephants, but they have to earn their keep here.

Our David McKenzie explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They grow up to be one of Africa's giants, but like all creatures, they start off pretty small. Dwarfed by their keepers, each orphaned elephant at the David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust has a tragic tale.

(on camera): This is Sola (ph). She's 6 weeks old. They say her mother died because of starvation in the Kenyan drought. The person who found her gave her cow's milk, which is extremely harmful to elephants because of the fat.

(voice-over): Sola (ph) wandered into a tourist camp in Kenya's Sola (ph) National Park, alone and confused. The orphanage scrambled a plane to rescue her.

Carefully strapped in and traumatized, they evacuated Sola (ph) to Nairobi. For weeks, she was too sick to stand. Three days ago, she started walking again. If she makes it, she won't be alone. Drought, poaching and shrinking habitats have decimated elephant herds across East Africa.

And the orphanage is fuller than it's been in 30 years. Still, Dame Daphne Sheldrick will take more.

DAME DAPHNE SHELDRICK, DAVID SHELDRICK WILDLIFE TRUST: You know, if a human child came in need of care, you wouldn't put a bullet in it or turn it away. Elephants are the same. Whatever comes in, we have to make space.

MCKENZIE: It takes years to rehabilitate and reintroduce the orphans into the wild. For the keepers, it's not just a 9:00 to 5:00 job.

EDWIN LUSICHI, CHIEF KEEPER: But after working with these elephants, it's no longer just a job. It is from inside your heart, the love that you have for these animals.

MCKENZIE: Every three hours, day and night, the keepers mix fortified soy milk for the elephants. It costs $900 a month to care for each orphan, so the elephants have to earn their keep.

With a slap of sunscreen to protect their sensitive skin, the babies go on parade. They slush and slide for the throngs of tourists who see the fun, but not the heartbreak. For every baby elephant saved this year, another has died. SHELDRICK: It's a trauma. We grieve, we bury it. We turn the page and then get on with the living. That's all you can do.

MCKENZIE: So they hope to lead these infants through their most fragile stage. It could take years before Sola (ph) joins a family of wild elephants. In the care of her human family, she just might make it.

David McKenzie, CNN, Nairobi, Kenya.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LUI: Now, if you want to help the baby elephants you saw in that story, you can go to CNN.com/impact. We have got a link there to the David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust, posted there and on our blog as well.

They share a name, a father and a family resemblance, President Obama and his half-brother Mark Obama Ndesandjo. It's a small world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: President Obama squeezed in some family time on this week's trip to China, not with the first lady or their daughters, but with a sibling that he barely knows, a half brother who describes their counter as intense.

He spoke with CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In between his arrival in Beijing on Monday and his informal dinner with Chinese President Hu Jintao a few hours later, President Obama met briefly in his hotel with his half brother, Mark Obama Ndesandjo.

MARK OBAMA NDESANDJO, BARACK OBAMA'S HALF BROTHER: We just had a big hug and my wife and he had a big, big hug. And it was very, very powerful, very, very intense because he's my big brother.

VAUSE: Mark Obama, who spent the past seven years living in southern China, has recently written a semiautobiographical book and in that book he says he was abused by his father, Barack Obama Senior.

(on camera): Did the president ask you about the experiences with your father, the same father that you both share?

M. OBAMA: What I can say is that we talked about family.

VAUSE (on camera): Your mom is Jewish?

M. OBAMA: Yes, I'm Jewish, yes.

VAUSE (voice-over): Just like Barack Obama, Mark Obama was the child of a mixed marriage, while he never knew his half brother while growing up, the two have met from time to time as adults. M. OBAMA: There's always that personal connection and I don't see him -- I honestly don't see him as president of the United States when I'm next to him.

VAUSE (on camera): Do you have that relationship you can pick up the phone and say, hey, hey, it's Mark calling?

M. OBAMA: Well you do that very carefully.

VAUSE: But can you pick up the phone and call him?

M. OBAMA: You know, I would say -- I would rather not go into that for various reasons. But the thing is that we know how to get in contact with each other if we have to.

VAUSE (voice-over): It was an emotional reunion between Mark Obama, a rare meeting with his half brother who's also the U.S. president in the midst of crucial talks with Chinese leaders.

B. OBAMA: Well, you know, I don't know him well. I met him for the first time a couple of years ago, he stopped by with his wife for about five minutes during the trip. I haven't read the book. But it's no secret that my father was a troubled person.

VAUSE (on camera): President Obama has now finished his trip to China which was meant to build deeper ties, but also spending some time, albeit briefly, on family relationships as well.

John Vause, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LUI: All right here at home, Michelle Obama got the dirt on healthy eating at Holland Meadows Elementary School in Alexandria, Virginia. And by dirt, what we mean is soil, as in garden soil, where the school grows veggies that it serves in the cafeteria. Now the first lady and Ag Secretary Tom Vilsack are promoting healthier U.S. schools, including more recess time for some exercise.

And you're looking live at a House subcommittee grilling health leaders about H1N1. They're focusing here on Uncle Sam's response to the outbreak and the public's frustration over the hard to find vaccine. Production is way behind schedule, as you might already know, but lawmakers say they do not want to sacrifice safe to turn it out faster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: I believe we better serve the American people when we focus on producing a safe and effective vaccine and having it made available in a safe and efficient manner. History has taught us that prioritizing speed over safety is shortsighted when it comes to flu outbreaks.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LUI: Well, a lot of you are worried about swine flu, but not as many are frantic to get the vaccine evidentially. We have got a new CNN opinion research poll that says 7 percent of you have gotten some form of the vaccine, either nasal mist or shot. Now another 35 percent want it even if you have not tried to get it. But look at the bottom of the screen there, a majority of you, 55 percent, do not want it at all. That worries doctors who fear a lack of inoculations will cause the virus to spread faster during this flu season.

And guess what Santa wants this holiday season; guess what he wants. If you said a swine flu shot, you'll probably make his nice list. But seriously, two groups representing the jolly good fellows say they do not want kids getting sick from their Santas, or vice versa. They want mall Santas in the high risk group for swine flu giving them first digs at H1N1 shots. Sadly, no word about expanding elf care in Santa's workshop. Maybe they don't have a group to get together with. It's a tough union up there evidently.

For the second time in seven moves, Somali pirates attacked the U.S.-flagged cargo ship Maersk Alabama. The U.S. Navy says the ship came under a pirate assault this morning some 300 miles off the Somali coast. But this time, the Alabama was ready. Private security guards on board returned fire, repelling the bandits. Back in April, as you might remember, pirates seized the ship and kidnapped the captain holding him for several days before Navy SEALs came to the rescue.

Tim for democracy in Iran. You remember the nation's dispute of presidential election back in June, we were showing you the pictures. It gave rise to Iran's Opposition Movement, but paved the way for death sentences against five dissidents today.

Well our Ivan Watson is live in neighboring Pakistan with the latest on these death sentences -- Ivan.

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Richard, this is a continuation of a series of trials now. Thousands of people were arrested after those protests that erupted after those contentious elections, and now Iran has announced this week that five of these people are being sentenced to death; another 81 people are being sentenced to between six months and 15 years in prison. The death sentences accompanied by charges of belonging to terrorist groups, the other people being sentenced to jail time, they are charged with acting against the national interest, disturbing the peace and destroying public property.

Now all of these people do have the right to appeal, but this is being slammed by opposition activists and by international human rights organizations like Amnesty International, which has condemned the death sentences saying these defendants have not been given any access to lawyers, they have not been given proper access to medical facilities as well. And also, slamming the Iranian authorities for what have effectively been show trials, televised trials of more than 100 opposition members paraded on TV, in some cases being charged with being forced to confess in front of television screens. And this is obviously being criticized by international human rights groups. I have spoken to one opposition activist, he participated in an opposition presidential campaign rally ahead of those June 12 elections. He has been forced to flee the country since the crackdowns over the course of the summer and he says his family is terrified that if he goes home, he could also be sentenced to death -- Richard.

LUI: Ivan Watson with the latest on that, thank you so much.

Three decorated Army sergeants shot and killed four Iraqi detainees at a Baghdad canal. What happened that day back in 2007, it's contained on Army interrogation tapes and CNN has obtained them. Special Investigations Unit correspondent Abbie Boudreau previews an "AC360" special report, "KILLINGS AT THE CANAL, THE ARMY TAPES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN INVESTIGATIVE UNIT CORRESPONDENT: We've obtained 23.5 hours of Army interrogation videotapes, where investigators pressed soldiers on details of the crime; tapes you'll only see here on CNN.

Here, Sergeant Michael Leahy, who was eventually convicted of premeditated murder, confesses to firing at two of the men.

INVESTIGATOR: How many times did you fire?

SGT. MICHAEL LEAHY, U.S. ARMY: I fired twice. I fired and when I saw the guy fell back on me and when he fell back on me, I don't know why I fired again. It wasn't at him. Like my arm went up to the right and I fired again. I'm pretty sure I didn't hit anybody, but I'm not going to say that because I don't know for sure. I wasn't even looking when I shot the second time. My arm just went up to the right.

INVESTIGATOR: No reasonable person is going to believe that you shot and then this guy fell back on you, and then your arm went at this angle. If you shot this dude, just say you shot him.

LEAHY: All right.

INVESTIGATOR: Just be honest about it.

LEAHY: It is true. This guy did fall and my arm...

INVESTIGATOR: No, I don't doubt that that guy fell on you, but if you purposely shot this guy, Mike, just say it. You've already manned up. You've already shown that's what you're made of. I know it's hard, but I know that's what happened, dude. You wouldn't have so much question in your mind right now if you didn't know what happened. And I know it's hard.

LEAHY: You're right. And it...

INVESTIGATOR: Just tell us what happened, Mike

LEAHY: I'm like 80 percent sure, yes, I turned and shot this guy. But I'm not 100 percent sure I turned and shot this guy.

BOUDREAU: Sergeant Leahy would go on to tell Army investigators that his bullets killed one of the men but not the other. He says another sergeant actually killed the second man with two bullets to the chest.

This is all part of our investigation, "KILLINGS AT THE CANAL, THE ARMY TAPES," tonight only on "AC360."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LUI: Well the wives of the U.S. troops are speaking out about this case and they're defending their husbands. They don't hold back either, find out what they have to say on our website, CNN.com.

Forensic experts are back at Anthony Sowell's Cleveland home where 11 bodies have already been found and they're digging again focusing on areas red flagged by heat-seeking equipment in a search last week. Sowell is already facing murder, rape, assault and kidnapping charges.

And grief counselor are at work at a Texas elementary school today trying to comfort kids who lost a 7-year-old classmate. The third grader was gunned down while visiting his father in Juarez, Mexico last week. He lives with his aunt and uncle in El Paso. Police have not made any arrests in that.

Plus, police are hunting for at least two gunmen believed to be on the run after a hostage standoff. The siege at the T.J. Maxx store in Venice, Florida ended shortly after midnight. None of the six people trapped inside for hours were hurt. Police say the gunman likely fled before the first cop cars had arrived in that.

You got your gown, you got your cap with the fun tassel, you know, dangling right there. You got degree too. Now the hard part begins for many college grads out there. It's that quest for three simple words, "You are hired."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: It's a tough time to be starting a career, a new survey says job prospects for recent college graduates are bleak, but there are some sectors that are hiring. Our Susan Lisovicz is at the New York Stock Exchange with the details on that.

And Susan, let's start by looking at where things stand right now for these college grads? How are you, by the way?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Richard, good to see you.

Tough time to spends all that money, all that time looking at the books, and then you come into this kind of environment with the unemployment rate is at the 26-year high. A lot of seasoned people out there pounding the payment, so no surprise then that hiring for new college graduates plunged 40 percent this year. This is from the latest recruiting trend survey from Michigan State University, hiring expected to fall another 2 percent next year.

What you can also expect in this kind of tough environment is fewer signing bonuses available, fewer performance-based bonuses and not a huge increase in salaries year over year. The average salary for a graduate with a bachelor's degree, which is the most common, is just under $40,000. The good news here, according to the survey, the job market has bottomed out. You can only go up from there. It's just painfully show, Richard.

LUI: OK, so hopefully we're skipping along on the bottom. And therefore, I guess many of the college grads here, Susan, are looking for some opportunity. What do you know about that in terms of these opportunities?

LISOVICZ: There are a whole lot of sectors that are hiring. Not one that is superhot, but let's give you some areas, like ecommerce, computer sciences, programming, agriculture production, food processing, environmental sciences, nonprofits, nursing, social work, engineering.

What you have to understand here, according to the analysts from the study, is that things are not going to return to normal in which college graduates, even those with good grades and really top schools, have their pick of high paying jobs. The fact is, that this is going to be a slow recovery by all accounts, that increasing global competition means graduates will compete for fewer jobs with lower salaries and benefits.

So a little bit of advice here, it's very important for students to get aggressive and in charge about their the futures earlier in their college careers by net working with prospective employers, landing internships and developing critical thinking skills so that they can be flexible, that they can bounce around, because as we know, you just don't lock yourself into one career for life. That just doesn't exist anymore, Richard.

LUI: Susan, you hit a -- you got to focus on developing those skills early on, especially in this type of environment where it's tough to get any sort of job of any sort of status or bonus, shall we say.

LISOVICZ: You know, it's not to get depressed about, it's something to get empowered about. Take charge.

LUI: Exactly. Susan "Take Charge" Lisovicz, thank you so much on this Wednesday afternoon. Have a good one and appreciate that.

LISOVICZ: You too. Good to see you, Richard.

LUI: Thank you.

It's bonus season on Wall Street, but top employees of some of the most heavily bailed-out companies are not celebrating quite as much as they have in recent years. CNNMoney.com's Poppy Harlow is in New York taking a look at those bonuses.

Poppy, how much of a haircut are some of these execs taking? And a lot of people saying, well, they should.

POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM CORRESPONDENT: Right. Pretty big ones, you and Susan just talking about just trying to find a job, let alone getting a bonus. But we've learned this is week is what Citigroup is doing, one of the nation's most bailed out companies, in an SEC filing. We'll show you the numbers. This is a haircut that some of the top execs there are taking.

Take for example James Forese, he's the co-head of global markets at Citi. Last year, Richard, he took in $12.9 million, this year Citi's cutting that way down to $5.9 million, that's all in with cash and stock.

LUI: That's still big.

HARLOW: It's still big, but it's still a big haircut, and that's what we're seeing.

Vice Chairman of Citigroup Stephen Volk, same story here; $10.5 million total comp last year, this year he's going to get $3.9 million.

What's happening here is what we're going to see at all of those seven bailed out companies that are now overseen in terms of their compensation by the Obama administration pay czar Ken Fienberg. Last month, he capped the salaries for those top 25 executives at those firms. This week, what we just found out, and expect to hear more of this, Richard, is what Citigroup is doing to comply with that mandate -- Richard.

LUI: Yes, some saying that's a lot, some want more. So are there still more pay cuts to come?

HARLOW: You better believe it. Right now, what's happening is that the pay czar is now looking at the compensation packages that he will approve for the next 75 most highly compensated employees at those seven firms.

Take a look at the companies we're talking about here, you know them well by now. The goal is to make a final decision on them by early December, before the bonus checks go out. That has some of these firms worried. And understandably, they're worried about losing that quote, unquote "top talent." Even the pay czar himself said he's very concerned that they might lose some of their best employees that will go elsewhere where they'll make more money and the government won't be overseeing their pay.

Jamie Dimon, the head of JPMorgan last month when I talked to him said he's concerned about that. At peer firms, his seen his colleagues talking about that. But when you ask some folks, just regular folks on main street, they have different sentiment. I'll read you two quick notes that I got on my Facebook page about this topic.

Jeffrey wrote in, he said, "They should be forced to live like the rest of us with no perks and trying to make ends me for at least five years."

He's not so happy, and Paul wrote in, "They should all be forced to go back to school and prove they can pass Business 101 at the local community college."

Paul, I think they can, but I get you're outrage. I get where you're coming from.

That's what people are saying, and the full story you can see right here on CNNMoney.com. It's going to be interesting, Richard, to watch for the next month or so as we see those pay cuts take effect -- Richard.

LUI: Yes, and you balance it out by saying, although there are many citizens upset about it, it's not like 1,000 million, if you will, CEO-types out there. You sometimes have to pay them more to do that job.

HARLOW: These people work incredibly hard and you have to be fair, you're exactly right.

LUI: CNNMoney.com, Poppy Harlow, thank you.

A suspect goes wild, the cops swarm in, the Tasers come out and zap. Good work, right? Oh, wait, did I mention the suspect was 10 years old?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: Shock in Ozark, Arkansas after a cop Tasered a 10-year-old girl. Her mother called police when the girl would not take a shower. So the kid allegedly then kicked the cop in the groin. That's when things got amped up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JIM NOGGLE, OZARK, ARKANSAS, POLICE: In the situation where he was at, he had no other choice. He had to get the child under control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUI: All right, the chief says there's no policy about when a Taser can be used on a minor, but he also says the cop could have used a metal rod or pepper spray.

As always Team Sanchez is stirring it up back there, working on next hour in the NEWSROOM. There he is tapping away.

Hey, Rick, what have you got?

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I tell you, Richard, we on this show have been following this case out of Maricopa County, it is one of the most amazing pieces of videotape I have ever seen. It's a law enforcement officer, a court deputy going behind the back of an attorney while she's addressing the court. He goes into her file and starts rifling through the file and then removes documents while she's not looking and gives them to another deputy who walks out of the courtroom with it.

I mean, anybody who looks at this would say, why is he stealing from this woman? I mean, that's a direct violation of the laws of privacy established by our Constitution. It has been called as such by most attorneys we've shown the videotape to.

It's become a huge brouhaha in Maricopa County. And now there's been a ruling on it. A judge has come out and decide what the fate of this deputy should be. But now Judge Joe Arpaio, who you know is the sheriff in Maricopa County, he's come forward and he's telling the deputy to defy the judge's ruling.

This is getting crazy and we're going to take you through the entire thing as the news comes in.

Back to you, Richard.

LUI: That brouhaha, that hullabaloo all in the same story. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LUI: Smoke them if you got them, tomorrow the Los Angeles City Council could ban medical marijuana sales. This is a place where pot dispensaries outnumber Starbucks.

Here's CNN's Casey Wian with the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Los Angeles has quickly become the nation's medical marijuana capital. The city attorney estimates about 1,000 pot dispensaries are operating here, most illegally. Although California law allows medical marijuana use and even cultivation in limited amounts, some officials are trying to ban medical marijuana sales in Los Angeles.

DAVID BERGERL, ASST. LOS ANGELES CITY ATTORNEY: The city attorney's analysis of the state law suggests that sales are not allowed whether they are for-profit or not-for-profit.

WIAN: The proposal drew hundreds of medical marijuana supporters to a rowdy, packed city council meeting on Monday.

RICHARD EASTMAN, MEDICAL MARIJUANA SUPPORTER: The dispensaries that provide the medicine that have saved my life and all of the people with cancer and glaucoma and multiple sclerosis and whatever illnesses should be allowed to receive their medicine.

WIAN: Two city council committees voted to allow medical marijuana sales, just not for-profit.

BILL ROSENDAHL, LOS ANGELES CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: I know people today who have various illnesses, especially those with cancer, that it is the only relief that they get because a lot of these prescription drugs that people get addicted to that end up killing them, OK, is not what medical marijuana is.

WIAN (on camera): The idea that the debate over medical marijuana is all about medical necessity is contradicted by the industry's own advertising. Here's the nearly 200-page "Los Angeles Journal" for education on medical marijuana.

(voice-over): Inside, ads feature longtime recreational pot advocate Snoop Dog offers free joints for first time patients, suggestive photos of nearly naked women, and an attorneys who boasts of winning light or dismissed sentences for accused marijuana traffickers. Fourteen states now have laws permitting medical marijuana use.

Colorado Governor Bill Ritter, this week, received legal clearance to collect sales taxes from pot dispensaries. And in Portland, Oregon, last week, the nation's first marijuana cafe opened at a former adult club called Rumpspankers. Smokers must remain behind closed doors.

(on camera): Back in Los Angeles, the full city council is scheduled to vote Wednesday on the new medical marijuana law. Even if it passes, the local district attorney says his office will continue to prosecute dispensaries who sell medical marijuana because, he says, that violates state law.

All this, while the California state legislature is considering a proposal that would tax and legalize marijuana statewide.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)