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Interview With Olivia Newton-John; Sarah Palin`s Book Tour Rolls On; 9/11 Trials in NYC?

Aired November 18, 2009 - 21:00:00   ET


JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW Sarah Palin`s rogue tour rolls on as she tries to sell her book by trash-talking her fellow Americans.

Also the 9/11 trials, they`re going to be held in New York City. Good idea, bad idea, is this justice or partisan politics?

And she went from the Land Down Under to the top of the music world. And after a battle with breast cancer, she`s back; fabulous and (INAUDIBLE); the one, the only, Olivia Newton-John.

All this and more starting right now.

Shocking new guidelines for breast cancer screening were released this week which have the entire medical world talking. Among the recommendations are no mammograms and no self-breast exams before 50.

Joining me to discuss these guidelines are Dr. Marie Savard an internist and medical contributor for "Good Morning America" and the lovely and talented Olivia Newton-John, herself a breast cancer survivor turned activist.

Welcome to the show ladies.


BEHAR: Olivia, let me start with you, you were in your 40s when you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Yes?


BEHAR: How did you detect it?

NEWTON-JOHN: I found the lump myself.

BEHAR: You found it by breast exam?

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. Self breast exams, I`m so up in arm and why they`re not advocate that we do regular self breast exams. It`s an obvious thing to do it.

BEHAR: Right.

NEWTON-JOHN: If you find something, sorry...

BEHAR: I`m sorry -- go ahead.

NEWTON-JOHN: If you find something that isn`t right, then you go and get it checked out, which is what I did.

BEHAR: Yes, well, we`re going get to that with the doctor. But I want to just hear your story. Did you follow it up with a mammogram?

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes, I did. I followed up with a mammogram -- the mammogram actually was negative which is unusual. And I don`t say that to scare people. But I instinctively felt there was something wrong.

BEHAR: Really.

NEWTON-JOHN: And so did the doctor, so he did a surgical biopsy. He did a needle biopsy surgery which is also negative, which I know it`s not common either. But I still didn`t feel it was right. So I had lumps before, and I wasn`t feeling my best. So he did a surgical biopsy and then found the cancer. So I was very fortunate.

BEHAR: I see. Doctor, women in their 40`s have always been told to have an annual mammogram. What changed this all of a sudden?

MARIE SAVARD, MD, INTERNIST: You know sadly I don`t think anything major changed. There have nor really been a big -- there wasn`t a big new study that made a difference.

What I think happened was, this expert panel got together -- it was a new panel -- looked at all the numbers, crunched the numbers, as we were talking about and decided to weigh women`s lives on side versus side effects, inconvenience, pain of biopsy, radiation -- which the radiation dose is so much lower. Not much new has happened. If anything the mammogram has gotten better. Digital mammogram -- people really aren`t talking about or ultra sound which obviously probably helped you be diagnosed.

There`s lots of things out for women out there. And to say to women, between 40 and 50 -- the leading cause of cancer death in women in that age group -- don`t do anything, it`s just -- it`s crazy.

BEHAR: My information is mammograms catch 1 in 2,000 of breast cancer cases in women between 40 and 49? That`s pretty good isn`t it?

SAVARD: They save one out of almost 2,000 women`s lives in that period of time. That`s a lot of live if you multiply to thousands of women in this country.

BEHAR: That`s a lot of people. They also recommend stop teaching women under 50 which is what you were saying, to self-examine their breasts. Why is that?

SAVARD: I`m so insulted and outrage by the thought. Most women that have come to me in practice -- many years of practice -- come because they trust -- just as you did, they feel something is wrong. That gets them, you examine them, you can get the mammogram.

The mammogram is not perfect. If it`s not, you keep being the squeaky wheel. You end up with the ultrasound and the biopsy.

BEHAR: Why do you think they`re saying this Olivia?

NEWTON-JOHN: I don`t know. It`s alarming; truly alarming to me. But also I know, many of my friends found their cancers through self-exam. The women that have had lumps and have gone and they find there`s nothing, they`re just delighted that it`s nothing. They`re not like upset that they had to go through it.


BEHAR: But what if they say don`t find anything?

SAVARD: That, I can`t imagine.


BEHAR: Is it not cost effective? Is there money involved?

SAVARD: No. What money could be involved in a woman knowing her body? They sort of say the doctors -- doctors breast exam, really, there`s no evidence that that really works. I mean it`s ludicrous to think that a doctor is not going lay on hands any longer and what are we going to do?


BEHAR: The American Cancer Society, I don`t think is going along with it. Am I right?

SAVARD: I think a lot of big medical groups really are quite alarmed about what could happen. Women could fall through the cracks. Women are going to hear this message and think, "I`m not going to get the mammogram. It doesn`t work. It`s kind of painful." Sure.

Or, they`re going to feel a lump and say, what`s the point of going to the doctors because they`re not going to be able to detect anything.

BEHAR: What do you think is going to happen -- go ahead.

NEWTON-JOHN: I think that we have to keep pushing self-examination. If women can`t get breast exams then we have to do the self-examination. If you find something untoward go to your doctor and ask for a mammogram.

What I`m worried about are the women -- the poorer women that can`t get this covered on insurance because I have a feeling that`s where it`s leading.

BEHAR: Well, what`s going to happen to women over 50 who want an annual mammogram? They want them to have them -- they want women over 50 to have them every two years now. What if you want to have it every year, will the insurance not pay for it?

SAVARD: Today Kathleen Sebelius, our secretary of health...


SAVARD: She came out with a statement saying we`re not going to change anything. She understands the alarm. She understands the limitations of mammography. But right now, we`re not changing anything. We`re not going to ...

NEWTON-JOHN: Wonderful.

BEHAR: Well, private insurers are required by law in every state except Utah to pay for mammograms for women in their 40s at the moment. Why not Utah? Don`t Mormons get breast cancer?

NEWTON-JOHN: I`m sure they do.


SAVARD: Good point, of course they do. All women, that we`re all risk and bottom line, women die from breast cancer and early diagnosis, early treatment means...

NEWTON-JOHN: Early diagnosis is key.

SAVARD: And their just talking about deaths. What about the earlier you diagnose, the less the surgery or the treatment? We`re not talking about that part of the equation as well.

NEWTON-JOHN: We`re going backwards Joy. I was just in Germany and Vienna. I was introducing my Liv Aid which is a self-breast examination aide/tool to help you find lumps more easily. The women in Germany are very upset because they are having problems getting mammograms. And they`re not given the information. I heard that the study is based on the European Union which means we`re going backwards, not forwards in our treatments.

BEHAR: In England, I remember -- I heard somebody say on TV the other day, that in England they don`t start until after 50 with mammograms.

SAVARD: Right. But they`ve been a country that`s worried about cost containment for a long time. And there`s no question it`s hard. A lot of preventive services have not been given to the degree that we would go along with in this country including things like pap testing much less.

I say to women that understand the limitations of the mammogram. Ask for a digital mammogram. If you`re a pre-menopausal woman and you have lumpy breasts, ask if your center does the digital which is more sensitive. If you have a lump, don`t just rely on that negative mammogram as you did. Ask to get the ultrasound.


BEHAR: I mean, they`re saying don`t check yourself in the shower.

SAVARD: That doesn`t make sense.

NEWTON-JOHN: It doesn`t make sense.

BEHAR: Let`s say this all goes through. Let`s say you happen to be checking yourself. Or maybe somebody else finds it, you should be so lucky.

SAVARD: Of course, men do find lumps. That`s not that uncommon.

BEHAR: Ok, so now are you supposed to not -- are you supposed to say, "Oh, I didn`t find it, because I`m not allowed to find it?"

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. We`re supposed to ignore it.


SAVARD: In all fairness, they do say be aware. I`ve heard experts say women should be aware of their bodies and report anything. What kind message of a message is that? Be aware but we don`t want you trained in this process. We don`t want you to be very good at being aware.

BEHAR: I feel like there`s a war against women in health. There`s the Stupak amendment which really will deny women insurance to get an abortion if they need it. They have to have a rider on their private insurance if they wanted to get an abortion. As if you could plan that you`re going get an abortion.

And now there`s this, which is going to curtail all of these tests for women.

SAVARD: And there was a lot of responses because I looked on my Web site -- on the ABC website. They all said things like what about men`s health? What about prostate cancer?


BEHAR: What about Viagra? Viagra is covered. Do you know that Viagra is covered by insurance? Doesn`t that annoy you?

NEWTON-JOHN: And men do get breast cancer -- maybe that`s what`s going to take. Because I`m sure I know man who is using my self- examination and his wife and he found it. He was in his 30s. It does happen to men also.


SAVARD: And they get mammograms, they need to be tested if they find a lump. So we don`t want to -- we can`t, as you said, we can`t go backwards. Let`s have better technology but not -- but women between the ages of 40 and 50 cannot just have nothing.

BEHAR: So what is your final work to women watching? Both of you right now.

SAVARD: Trust your instincts, examine your breasts. Be vigilant about every aspect of your body. Speak up, be that squeaky wheel.

BEHAR: And don`t let this legislation go through whatever it is that they`re...

NEWTON-JOHN: Be in control of your own health and your breast health. Be vigilant on your breast health. And if you feel a lump -- a lump is a lump is a lump. You don`t have to be terrible clever to find the lump or notice if it`s unusual.

BEHAR: Most lumps that you find are benign.

NEWTON-JOHN: Most are but if it`s something that feels a little different and you know that. And if you`re doing regular checkups you should be aware of what is normal for you and what isn`t.

SAVARD: Exactly. The lumps that don`t go away -- women know when there`s something different.


BEHAR: It was interesting that you knew. Thanks very much Dr. Savard.

Olympia is going to -- Olivia is going stay with us. Who`s Olympia? More with Olympia Newton-John when we come back.






BEHAR: I`m back with singer, actress and activist, Olivia Newton- John; a woman who has been mellow, honestly in love, and greased but not necessarily in that order.

Let`s talk about the new special, "Kaleidoscope". Tell me about it. It features ice skaters and cancer survivors which is not a natural match but tell me about it.

NEWTON-JOHN: Well, it`s very interesting. It`s an inspiring program. It`s on Thanksgiving Day after the big football match which is a perfect time to catch people. It`s an inspiring show, it`s ice skating and music, it`s sport. And Scott Hamilton who`s a cancer survivor twice, Dorothy Hamill, who`s a breast cancer survivor. The three of us are in the show with some other wonderful people who I`ll tell you about.

But it will inspire people -- people going through cancer, cancer carers and their families just to have hope and inspiration and to give them advice about it. It`s a wonderful show. I sing a song that David Foster and I wrote with a group of young children called "Purple Songs Can Fly" and they`re a group of children who have been through cancer themselves and wrote the lyrics to a song that we wrote.

It`s beautiful. Dorothy Hamill skated to it in front of us. It was just glorious.

BEHAR: She had cancer too?

NEWTON-JOHN: She did. She`s doing great.

BEHAR: We have Twitter comments for you that I just want to splatter throughout this. This one says "Olivia was my make a wish in 1993. I had a stage 3-b Hodgkin lymphoma. After our meeting she inspired me to fight to survive. I owe her my life."

NEWTON-JOHN: Oh, how sweet.

BEHAR: Isn`t that nice?

NEWTON-JOHN: That is wonderful.

BEHAR: You really make a difference I think, huh?

NEWTON-JOHN: That is so nice.

BEHAR: Last year you raised more than $2 million for cancer research walking the Great Wall of China.


BEHAR: Tell me about that.

NEWTON-JOHN: I walked the wall to raise -- I`m building a cancer and wellness center in Melbourne, Australia and I`m very proud to say it will be in my name. The walk was for that.

We invited Olympians and celebrities to join me on the walk. We had sponsored. And (INAUDIBLE) were a big part of that sponsorship. They were wonderful. It was incredible experience.

It was kind of like the cancer journey. It was very difficult. It was inspiring. We don`t know what was going to happen the next day but we got through it. It was three weeks of tough walking. Have you been there? Have you seen it?

BEHAR: I haven`t been. You know I was reading -- you know the long march of China that took place in the 20th century, Mao Tse Tung`s long march. They carried him. I read that. He didn`t even walk. He didn`t march it, he didn`t walk it. They carried him. What type of a leader is that.

NEWTON-JOHN: I`m not surprised. It`s tough.

BEHAR: Let`s talk about "grease" for a second because it`s one of our favorite movies. You recently celebrated 30 years.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. Can you believe it?

BEHAR: Kids love that movie. Why is that movie so popular?

NEWTON-JOHN: I don`t know. I meet little kids all the time who just -- you know, who play it all the time. I think it`s just got an amazing energy and the songs have survived. And the `50s was a great period I think.

BEHAR: You think so?


BEHAR: You ever watch "Madmen"?

NEWTON-JOHN: I have watched "Madmen". It`s a good show.

BEHAR: That was about the 50s and 60s. Everybody smoked and gave themselves diseases.

NEWTON-JOHN: I didn`t see that part. But I think, the teenage -- I think the school years in the 50s were kind of fun, the way it`s depicted. I didn`t go to American schools. That was kind of fun for me.

BEHAR: That`s right. You were in Australia.

Did you have a crush on John Travolta during the making of "Grease"? My viewers would love to know that.

NEWTON-JOHN: I`m sure. I`m sure, yes.

BEHAR: You did?

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes, of course.

BEHAR: He`s so cute.

NEWTON-JOHN: He`s such a nice guy.

BEHAR: Have you seen him since he had this last tragedy in his family? Have you spoken to him at all?

NEWTON-JOHN: We`ve been in touch. It`s a very sensitive subject. I just send my love to him.

BEHAR: After "Grease" the movie, you actually became a huge star. A big star.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes, it did. It pushed me to another category.

BEHAR: You were one of the few that actually looked like a teenager, by the way.

NEWTON-JOHN: It was really weird, because I was 29 I think when I made the movie.

BEHAR: You looked like a kid. Some of them looked like they were post menopausal.

NEWTON-JOHN: It`s really weird how you look at yourself at the time. I was so worried about it because of my aged. I asked to do a scene test with John just to make sure I feel like I could pull it off.

BEHAR: Oh, you pulled it off.

NEWTON-JOHN: And thank goodness I did.

BEHAR: you were adorable in that.

You became a big star. I assume your life changed after that. There was a lot of attention on you. Did you like that?

NEWTON-JOHN: It wasn`t like overnight success because I already had been working for a long time and I had success in music and such. So it was kind of like the next step. It was a much bigger plateau after that.

I managed to balance my life. I always had my horses, family, and my friends. I have that.

BEHAR: Do you think it`s hard on the kids these days, like Britney Spears and Lindsay and those kids? Are they having a harder time than you had?

NEWTON-JOHN: Much harder. We didn`t have the paparazzi kind of.

BEHAR: They`re in your face.

NEWTON-JOHN: All over the place. I really feel sorry for those girls. They don`t have chance to grow up and mature in private.

BEHAR: You didn`t have...

NEWTON-JOHN: Not the same way. On occasion they would catch you in a bikini on the beach or something. But it wasn`t the same.

Sometimes I just wonder if they basically...

BEHAR: They like it too though. Even though they object to it they also like it. They`ll go the IV and their publicist will say you know they`re coming out now. It`s a double-edged sword that paparazzi thing.

I know they`re very young and I really do think that some of the stuff really disturbs them.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. It`s hard for them.

BEHAR: Let me ask you about your Christmas CD which we saw a little bit of. Tell me about it.

NEWTON-JOHN: My Christmas CD, it`s both old traditional Christmas carols and a few new ones. And I do a few duets. I do one with Barry Manilow and John Secada and Michael McDonald.

BEHAR: I love Michael McDonald.

NEWTON-JOHN: Doesn`t he have the best voice? Beautiful voice.

BEHAR: Sexy voice.


BEHAR: That`s wonderful.

Let me give you a couple of Twitter questions. "Olivia has a big gay following. Why does she think that is?"

NEWTON-JOHN: They`re very loyal. They are amazingly loyal fans and seem to like me and I`m very grateful for them. I also did a movie called "Sordid Lives" that they liked a lot and a series called "Sordid Lives" that they seem to have enjoyed. So I don`t know. I love them...

BEHAR: They`re always a very good -- you`re right. They`re very loyal and they like certain people and they stick with them.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. BEHAR: I`m curious about your hyphenated name, this person writes. Is it a combination of your mother, your father? What is it?

NEWTON-JOHN: It was a combination of my father`s parents. He was from Wales and his name was John. My grandfather was John and my grandmother was Newton. So they put Newton John together. My parents did actually because John was a very common name and so they put the two names together.

BEHAR: Does Olivia Newton-John have any tidbits that no one else knows that happened during the filming of "Grease "?

NEWTON-JOHN: My lips are sealed.

BEHAR: You have nothing.

NEWTON-JOHN: Not that I`d tell.

BEHAR: Come on.


BEHAR: Wardrobe malfunctions.

NEWTON-JOHN: Wardrobe malfunctions I`m sure. Well, this is no news really but I had to be stitched into the jeans. The black pants I wore were really old when I got them because we filmed in the `70s and the pants were from the `50s.


NEWTON-JOHN: And so they were pretty old when we got them and the zip had gone so they stitched me into them in the morning that we shot. So I didn`t drink anything all day.

BEHAR: I see, so the `50s pants were tighter.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes. They were made of shark skin; some really amazing fabric. It was really kind of a thick Lycra but it wasn`t Lycra yet.


NEWTON-JOHN: But it was something it.

BEHAR: Well, you`re going stick around for some more conversation.

NEWTON-JOHN: I want to, yes.



BEHAR: Olivia tells us how she met her husband in the rain forest in the next segment. So stick around with us.

I want to meet your husband.









BEHAR: Oh, yes, oh yes baby.

I`m back with Olivia Newton-John and the man she`s hopelessly devoted to, her husband John Easterling. John...


BEHAR: Welcome to the show.

JOHN EASTERLING, NEWTON-JOHN`S HUSBAND: Well, thank you, Joy. Great to be with you.

BEHAR: You`re such a gorgeous couple, the two of you.

You fell in love in the Amazon?

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes we did actually I fall in love in Amazon but we known each other for 17 years before that.

BEHAR: Oh really.

NEWTON-JOHN: We`re friends, yes.

BEHAR: But you got married on the mountain top.


BEHAR: Right.


BEHAR: Ok. Did you have a best man or a Sherpa?

EASTERLING: We actually had a kind of a (INAUDIBLE) do the services at Tambra Mache (ph) which is an extraordinary archaeological site just outside of Machu Picchu.



BEHAR: Very nice, it must have been beautiful, yes.

NEWTON-JOHN: It was basically us and some musicians.

BEHAR: But I was reading that you kept your relationship a secret from your family.

NEWTON-JOHN: Not the relationship, no, just the wedding.


NEWTON-JOHN: We just didn`t tell anybody.

BEHAR: The wedding you didn`t tell anybody.

NEWTON-JOHN: Yes we just ran and did it.

BEHAR: Yes, how could be the relationship if you were with the guy for how many years.

NEWTON-JOHN: No, no, we knew each other for 17...

BEHAR: 17?

NEWTON-JOHN: But we were together a year when we got married.


BEHAR: Oh so you were dating. Well, I don`t get that. Because you know I`m dating a guy for 27 years.

NEWTON-JOHN: I know that`s right. No.

BEHAR: How long were you actually dating? You know like actually doing the -- the dirty. How long?


BEHAR: A year.

EASTERLING: We`re dating for a year. Yes, yes.

NEWTON-JOHN: We knew each other for 17 years as friends. I`ve met John many, many years ago.

BEHAR: Right.

NEWTON-JOHN: And then a few years after I knew him, this is actually interesting because this is how we reunited.


NEWTON-JOHN: My dog had puppies and John had met my dog, liked my dog. I gave him one of the dogs shipped it off to Florida because he lived in Florida and I didn`t see the dog again. John occasionally would see me and let me know the dog was ok.

And two and a half years ago, I was doing a show in Florida and I invited him to come and to bring his girlfriend and he brought the dog.

BEHAR: Don`t call his girlfriend a dog. That`s so wrong Olivia.


BEHAR: I know you better.

NEWTON-JOHN: And the dog remembered me.

EASTERLING: I remembered her and off we went. Actually hearing her sing, you`ve mentioned the -- she had a new CD, "The Grace and Gratitude."


EASTERLING: It so healing and she just kind of resonates at a core of healing. Really her whole life is about essentially about healing. And I wanted to introduce her to some of the healers that I met over the years in the rainforest and invited her to go down to Peru.

She had never been, three months later, they`re friends who introduced us and we all went and day two we fell in love hopelessly and forever in the rainforest.

BEHAR: Oh hopelessly in love.

EASTERLING: And that was it.


BEHAR: And do you share the belief in UFOs the two of you? I understand that you believe in UFOs I read that?

NEWTON-JOHN: That story, that is so funny.

BEHAR: I`m just giving you what I read Olivia you don`t have to tell me.

NEWTON-JOHN: No. It was very funny. I believe there are unidentified flying objects. And I thought I saw one once and that`s how the whole thing came.

BEHAR: Oh they love to pick up something like that.

Now, what is this I`m holding here?


BEHAR: Zamu.

EASTERLING: Yes, you know, I`ve been going to the Amazon like 30 years looking for treasure. And I went there a variety of things pre- Colombian artifacts...

BEHAR: What do you mean, looking for -- what kind of treasure.

EASTERLING: Well, I went down back in the `70s looking for lost cities of gold, the Incan treasure, things like that.


EASTERLING: And over the years managed to find enough treasure to keep the avocation, to keep the trail going. And it`s all evolved to botanicals. And the rain forest is extraordinary.

BEHAR: Very interesting. I think I`ll put it on ice and drink it later. Ok.


BEHAR: Thank you guys for doing this, for coming by.

NEWTON-JOHN: It`s good to see you.

EASTERLING: Thank you Joy.

BEHAR: Olivia`s TV special airs Thanksgiving Day on Fox and her Christmas album is in stores. We`ll be back in a minute.



BEHAR: Well, my favorite girl, Sarah Palin kicked off her rogue book tour today. Not in New York, not in San Francisco but in Grand Rapids Michigan. That`s because she`s refusing to visit any major cities on the tour. Yesterday she told Rush Limbaugh that quote, "she`s not trying to reach the Liberal elites, just everyday hardworking Americans. Excuse me, I mean that really ticks me off. With me now to discuss is Naomi Klein, a contributor to going rouge, an American Nightmare. Out this week. And Ana Marie Cox, National Correspondent and a host of The Inside Story on Air America. Naomi -- welcome, ladies to the show. She`s basically saying that hardworking Americans don`t live in the cities. Is that the implication here?

NAOMI KLEIN, AUTHOR: I think that`s pretty much it, yes.

BEHAR: And doesn`t that eliminate about 100 million people? It`s kind of stupid.

KLEIN: Yes, but it`s typical campaign rhetoric. And this whole book tour is very bizarrely like a Presidential campaign. Right? She`s got the bus and she`s doing these campaign style stops. She seems to be running for President of nothing. And I think she`s got chance to win. And I actually think she`s got a chance.

BEHAR: Let`s listen to what she said when Barbara asked, Barbara Walters asked her about Obama.


BARBARA WALTERS: On a scale of one to ten, ten being the best, where do you rate Barack Obama?

SARAH PALIN: A four. A four. I think there are a lot of decisions being made that I and probably the majority of Americans are not impressed with.

WALTERS: If you were President, what would you do about unemployment?

PALIN: I would start cut taxes and allowing our small businesses to keep what they`re earning, more of what they`re producing, more of what they own - earn so that they can start reinvest in their businesses and expand and hire more people. Not punishing them by forcing health care reform down their throats, by forcing an energy policy down their throats that will ultimately will tax them more and cost them more to stay in business. Those are back-asswards ways of trying to fix the economy.


BEHAR: Hey Ana Marie, back asswards huh, how is giving poor people health care shoving something down their throats and punishing them? Where does this women get these ideas from?

ANA MARIE COX, HOST OF THE INSIDE STORY ON AIR AMERICA: Not from that consensual reality that you and I live in. That`s for sure. And I have to say, you know I think if Sara Palin were in Barack Obama`s position and facing all the mini problems that he is facing, I guess what she would do is resign? You know she doesn`t seem up to facing the challenges of a relatively easy to run state with a small population. So I really don`t think she`s in a place to judge Barack Obama.

BEHAR: She`s a quitter. She`s a quitter.

KLEIN: Yes, she is. And all of her policies are about the fact she doesn`t believe in governing. Right, she doesn`t want regulations to deal with the climate crisis. She doesn`t want regulations to deal with the health care crisis. So she - she -- her governor philosophy is that we should do nothing, get out of the way. And she has lived that philosophy. I don`t think she`s a hypocrite at all. She quit her job in government. Which, you know, as long as she doesn`t run again, I think this is a woman running by her ideals.

COX: And I don`t think she will run again I have to say. I think she`s running for President of Facebook. Which is close to nothing. And I think she`ll probably win. I can`t think that anyone who writes a book like she`s just written is serious about running for President or governing like Naomi says.

BEHAR: Well does it concern either of you that she said she would rule out Glenn Beck as a potential running mate? I mean Howdy Doodie is not available.


COX: I would think - I kind of love that pairing. It`s sort of like The Rocky and Bullwinkle ticket, you know. In fantasy land, that sounds fantastic. Neither of them could actually get any votes. No one would work for either of them. Who would work for someone like Sarah Palin who has written a book bashing staffers. I think it`s really unrealistic to expect her to command any loyalty within a political class. She may have real America on her side. I don`t even think those people respect her -


KLEIN: One of the things that is interesting about this thing. I`m not interested in the elites, I`m interested in real Americans. But then what are her real policy solutions, we want to deregulate and cut taxes. First of all that`s what crashed the global economy. That was the Bush policy, right? Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts and let`s just create a free for all on Wall Street. These not original ideas. But they really do help some Americans. And they are the elites of the elites of the elites. Who really do benefit when you cut their taxes and you take away all regulations. That`s how you make a lot of money on Wall Street. So she`s -- this is an old trick. Bush used it as well. Playing the sort of populous card. But serving that top 1 percent.

BEHAR: But it gains ground very quickly that side of --

COX: Rhetoric does.


KLEIN: I think Obama shares some of the responsibility for that. Because people in this country really are angry, they really do feel neglected. They`re angry at Washington. They`re angry at broken promises. And I don`t think she would have quite as strong a base as she seems to have right now if some of the promises that Obama made on the campaign trail had been delivered on more quickly.

BEHAR: Go ahead -

COX: I have to say that I also think that there`s some of the way she`s been covered feeds into the notion that there is an elitist agenda against her. And I think we have to be careful about that when we talk about her. And making fun of her. I mean, there`s a lot about her to make fun of. I think she`s a serious person but I`d be really careful, to like point out, it`s her policies that are not serious.

BEHAR: I know but it offends me as a Liberal person. As a women who -- I grew up in a working class family, my father was a truck driver. I went to all City Universities. And I`m a Liberal. Does that make me an elitist? Glenn Beck makes $500 million a year. Rush Limbaugh makes gazillions of dollars. I mean why - I take offense at it frankly.

COX: And the fact is she does have some political power. She is making policy from Twitter. And she said there`s death panels and unfortunately, the world seems to have to react for this.

KLEIN: But we have to take responsibility for that. I have to say by the way, I hope after this week we can stop talking about her. What gives her policy --

BEHAR: Oh no, absolutely not. That`s deal breaker stopping to talk about her.

COX: But as long as we talk about her she has the pulpit to preach from. I mean she said the thing about death panels, it`s crazy - it sort of resonates with a few people. But then we covered it.

KLEIN: It should have been ignored.

COX: I think we have to be careful I think we need to be careful about the way we cover her. Because I think there`s a part of her that again, resonates with people strongly. And she has a very compelling story.

KLEIN: But also, this reality TV. I mean it`s the reality TV drama of taking somebody out of their natural habitat. You know take city kids drop them to the jungle. Drop them to Somalia, you know, take --

COX: Candidate swap.

KLEIN: Exactly. Or take some really urban people and you know, drop them in a country. Right? And so it`s that country mouse goes to the big city, you know, and so that`s the drama that she`s playing on. And that`s why we have trouble not watching and the same reason, you know, people watch the Simple Life.

BEHAR: How much of her appeal is her looks, do you think?

COX: Whoa. She`s a very attractive woman. I don`t think can deny that.

BEHAR: No, she`s pretty. If she was a abunchabruta (ph) -- as we say in the neighborhood. You know what that means? An ugly face. She would not have any traction in my opinion. It`s because she`s pretty.


KLEIN: If she was created in the laboratory in the basement of heritage foundation. We have, you know, a gun-toting Barbie Governor. But then she started malfunctioning. I`m Katie Couric and saying all these - and it actually won`t go away.


COX: Now she`s Stepford Wife.

KLEIN: Exactly.

COX: But I also think she`s pretty. And that is why I think that why a largely male dominated GOP embraced her the way she is. It`s also - it`s interesting to ask where she would be if she were a Liberal, if her looks would matter.

BEHAR: Exactly.

COX: But I also think that - I know you guys talked about The Newsweek coverage yesterday. But I`ve got to say that doesn`t people help us who want to criticize her on serious grounds. When a magazine puts a picture of her in her running shorts on there. And I want to criticize because she has stupid policies and because she makes idiotic proposals.

BEHAR: Well because it`s a distraction. It`s a distraction from the real issue.

COX: And it plays into this idea that -- that we all are being condescending to her. We`re not being condescending to her because she`s a pretty girl. We think less of her because of her ideas.

BEHAR: It has nothing to do with what we see her. I think men see her in a certain way, though.

COX: That`s probably true.

BEHAR: Yes, come on. Let`s be real here.

KLEIN: I have a very Liberal man who I shall name, nameless, a Hollywood Liberal man said to me, the reason why people are attracted to her is because she would watch the game with you and cook you dinner afterwards.

BEHAR: And go hunt and kill the moose, too. Naomi and Ana Marie, thank you. Our terror trials in New York a good idea? Former governor of New York George Pataki is with me next to discuss. And don`t forget to get this book, which I think -- We`ll talk about it next.



Can you understand why it is offensive to some for this terrorist to get all the legal privileges of an American citizen?

I don`t think it will be offensive at all when he`s convicted and the death pelt is applied to him.


BEHAR: President Obama was on the Today show defending the attorney general`s decision to put the accused 9/11 terrorists on trial in New York City. It`s a very complex issue and I have to be honest with you. I`m very conflicted about it. As a New Yorker, I`m weary. But as a Liberal and a Progressive, I want full transparency. Joining me is former New York Governor George Pataki. Governor, the President seems to be pretty certain that the guy will be convicted and probably executed.

GEORGE PATAKI, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Well I certainly hope so. There`s no question in my mind that he deserves the death penalty.

BEHAR: Yes, we all feel that way. But I mean, we would also like to see, you know, an open court.

PATAKI: You know, the argument I`ve heard in favor of this decision, and I think it is one of the worst decisions I`ve seen made by an administration in a long time is that we`re a nation that is guided by the rule of law and we`re going to obey the rule of law.

But I totally agree with that. But since our earliest days, part of the legal system has been military tribunals. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not an American citizen. He`s not someone who held up the corner grocery store. This is a terrorist who committed a war crime. A crime against humanity, targeting civilians and resulting in the death of thousands of civilians. There`s no sense to me.

And trying him in a criminal court in our civil justice system, where he is going to have the rights to know who our witnesses are, he`s going to have the know the right who are the sources of information are, what our techniques are. And we`ve seen from the past, when you give terrorists this information, it gets to Al Qaeda very quickly. It has in the past. And I fear it will in this case as well.

BEHAR: But I mean, isn`t there a difference between a military tribunal and the criminal court. Right?


BEHAR: There is a difference. And mostly people who are war criminals are charged in a military tribunal. Right? But that`s during a war. When they attacked us on 9/11 there was no war?


PATAKI: Joy, Joy - First of all I think we`ve been in a war against Islamic extremists since the 1993 bombing of the towers. And that wasn`t an isolated act. We had the bombing the of our embassies in East Africa. We had the bombing of the "Cole" and then we had, of course, the horrible attacks on 9/11. But what is really incomprehensible to me, is that the administration is saying, all right we are going to take Khalid Sheikh Mohammed because he blew up people in the United States and give him a criminal trial, but the other terrorists we caught overseas, we`re going try them in military tribunals. They`re not saying no to military tribunals, they`re saying, yes, for certain of the defendants but not for others. And I don`t understand the logic of this. And I really fear the security consequences in the future --

BEHAR: OK well Mayor Bloomberg says that the city can safely hold the trial.

PATAKI: This, this City is the greatest place there is -

BEHAR: And the NYPD does an incredible job.

PATAKI: Is the best, and we`re going to make sure everything is done to make us safe. My concern is more about what it does to our National Security as opposed to our personal security as a New Yorker. And We have seen, we tried this once before when we captured the blind Sheik. Information his attorney was given was leaked to Al Qaeda very quickly.

BEHAR: Well can`t we do something about those types of leaks? I mean why can`t he be in solitary confinement without blackberry? I don`t understand why that leaked.

PATAKI: It leaked because among other things, he had a lawyer who lied to prosecutors who went and told terrorist organizations in Egypt the information that had been obtained. But the point is that we should not be revealing this information to the terrorists in the first place. We can have no guarantee that it won`t get out there. It has in the past. And I don`t understand, why when we have a perfectly legitimate system, military tribunals, that has been used since the earliest days of our country.

And is going to be used against certain other terrorists - that we treat Khalid Sheikh Mohammed like he`s an American citizen. He`s not. He isn`t an American citizen. He committed a war crime. He was overseas, captured overseas, brought to this country and there`s no legal obligation. And I don`t think a moral obligation to try him in our criminal justice system.

BEHAR: OK, thanks very much for your insights. I mean when I talked to the Congressman Weiner, I`m going to ask him why we can`t have a military tribunal. We really like to see both sides of the story. You know, most people don`t get it exactly. And I`m one of them.

PATAKI: I understand.

BEHAR: But thanks so much.

PATAKI: Joy, thanks for having me and I appreciate it.

BEHAR: OK, bye - bye. Now I would like to turn to Congressman Anthony Weiner of New York. Hi, hi Congressman, very good to have you here -

REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D), NEW YORK: It`s my pleasure thanks.

BEHAR: We just talked to Governor Pataki and he feels that Mohammed should be tried in a military tribunal. Why not? Isn`t he a war criminal?

WEINER: Well we`ve tried for eight years to figure out how to have these various trials. I think it`s most appropriate the place he murdered people he should come back to face justice. We should have a chance for New Yorkers to sit in judgment on whether this guy should be put to death for his crimes. That`s the way we do justice in this country. And that`s the way we should. This notion that we should be scared or frightened or cower under our desks, that`s baloney. What we should really do, is finally get closure. Do for something that hasn`t happen for eight years, which is bring this guy to justice. Which ultimately, will mean, he`ll be put to death.

BEHAR: So the only reason you want it to be in New York, or people want it to be New York is because of the transparency?

WEINER: No, it`s just the easiest thing to do. We have a criminal justice system that handles tough cases all the time. And we have a way of collecting evidence, and we have a way of executing trials. And frankly its one of the things we have to be proud of. You know, since we have the worst criminal justice system in the world, except compared to every other country. And one thing I know is that for eight years, we have not had anything resembling closure. This guy has not been brought to justice. And now we`re hearing, if we hold him for another three or four years, maybe we`ll be able to figure it out. Well the best reason to do this is we know how to do it. We`re ready to do it. And I`m sure I can find at least 12 jurors in New York who would like the opportunity to put this guy to death.

BEHAR: I don`t really see how you are going to get any objectivity in the jurors. How can you going to do that?

WEINER: It`s going to be tough but it`s going to be tough where ever you are. When you are dealing with a guy who admitted to the crime. I mean that`s not

BEHAR: Yes - but

WEINER: I have no concern about that. If the guy did the crime, he`s confessed everywhere that he did it, if there`s information out there that he did it, I have no problem with him being held responsible.

BEHAR: I know but I worry about the defense coming up with what they call mitigating circumstances. The fact that Mohammed was water boarded 183 times. That he didn`t get his Miranda rights. And all the stuff that -

WEINER: Yes, well hold on -

BEHAR: All the stuff that we`re so proud of, we could lose the case.

WEINER: Yes but hold on a second. If you`re concerned about losing the case, I wouldn`t be concerned about any of those other things. The things that this guy has said without any water boarding at all. Just the stuff that he volunteered, I doubt that any evidence they collected was part of any extraordinary interrogation would even be introduced to the trial. I mean this is all stuff - you know, people act like this is the first tough case that the prosecution has ever prosecuted in the Southern district of New York.

Well the first time a judge as ever heard of some of these difficult cases where there`s confidential information involved. We do these cases all the time. And you what? Bad guys go to jail. And in this case, a bad guy is going to get put to death. I see no reason to change that. Especially since the alternative is when we have had at our disposal for eight years and couldn`t figure out how to do it because the court are still trying to figure out how you try a war crime not at the Hag. But somehow do it at Guantanamo. The other solution isn`t great either.

BEHAR: What about the fact that you`re giving the guy a platform for his followers? I mean, all that -- all of the propaganda is going to come out and everybody around the world is going to hear it.

WEINER: You know, we heard that about Moussaoui. That`s - listen, there`s no doubt about it having a transparent case you let crazy people say their crazy things. This judge will ultimately, the outcome we want is justice and justice in this case is putting this guy to death.

But what do you think is a bigger propaganda problem that or Governor Pataki and other Republicans saying we`re too scared if we have the trial, they`re going to hurt us if we have the trial, oh we can`t protect our city if we have the trial. That`s the propaganda stuff that bothers me. We can handle it in New York. You know, I trust our police department, I trust our judges and I trust our jury to be able to get this done. And for eight years we`ve been hearing excuses and finally we are going to get justice.

BEHAR: All right. Well I hope it`s not a circus like the O.J. trial was. I don`t think I could stand to see Marcia Clark again. Ha-ha. Kidding, kidding, Congressman.

WEINER: I hear you. I hear you.

BEHAR: Thank you very much. We`ll be back in a minute.

WEINER: Thank you. Thank you


BEHAR: It`s been five months since Michael Jackson died yet the web of mystery surrounding his past is still growing. The latest Evan Chandler father of the boy who first accused Jackson of child molestation? In 1983 killed himself in his Jersey City apartment. Joining me to discuss this is Roger Ready Forman who writes the showbiz 41 column. Welcome Roger.


BEHAR: This guy chandler, they got a $20 million settlement to not press charges against Michael Jackson. Is that what happened?

FORMAN: Well, the kid got, this is back in 1994.


FORMAN: His son got $20 million it was put in trust.

BEHAR: How old was the boy in 1 1993 -- or 4.

FORMAN: He was 13. Then the father who just died, he got 1.5 million dollars and his ex/wife got 1.5 million dollars and I believe her -- at that time, her husband, her, she was married to someone else he also got $1.5 million dollars as part of settlement.

BEHAR: Why did they get paid off.

FORMAN: Everybody got paid off to keep quiet and it`s never been actually proven what happened. Part of it was Michael panicked and his lawyers panicked because there was some element of truth to what was going on.

BEHAR: Like what, what was true.

FORMAN: Michael was having a much too close relationship -- Michael then in his 30s and having this very close relationship with this young boy.

BEHAR: Uh-huh.

FORMAN: He was sleeping in his room.

BEHAR: Right. I remember.

FORMAN: He was sleeping at the kid`s house then he was sleeping at the kid`s house. They were in each other`s beds.

BEHAR: But Michael insisted that it was all very innocent.

FORMAN: Right, but how innocent could it be?

BEHAR: It didn`t look right.

FORMAN: It didn`t look right. And there was some element of something going on there. Then you know what happened after this was all over there was a great article in "GQ" by a journalist named Mary Fisher, she went back and she had proof that Evan Chandler this man who just committed suicide. And the current husband of his wife then --

BEHAR: Yes. FORMAN: The step-father.


FORMAN: Had conspired to create this situation and that they actually drugged the kid in the dentist`s office and got him to say things that weren`t true about Michael.


FORMAN: So, there was actually a defense for Michael Jackson at one point that has been used ever since by the Jackson fans, something as sort of a template for them that they use to defend Michael.

BEHAR: I see. So, is it possible that this dentist just killed himself he felt guilty about all that.

FORMAN: It`s very possible.

BEHAR: But he was also very ill.

FORMAN: Well, he was ill.


FORMAN: But I think it`s not a coincidence that Michael Jackson died four months ago, that the movie is out and the movie has made $200 million, it`s everywhere and this point has probably been driven home that what the Chandlers started in 1993 snowballed to the point that it killed Michael Jackson because Michael`s problems really began with that incident. That`s where everything really start -- went out of control.

BEHAR: Oh, I don`t know about that. All his problems? His problems started in his childhood, according to what I`ve read.

FORMAN: Well, those problems.

BEHAR: Yes. Oh.

FORMAN: What I`m saying his legal problems, his financial problems, the thing began like it was just a snowball that kept getting bigger and bigger.

BEHAR: I see.

FORMAN: And it started with the Chandlers. So, it`s interesting that Michael has died, that all these things have happened and now very strangely that Evan Chandler has committed suicide.

BEHAR: Do you think we`ll ever find out the total truth about all that.

FORMAN: Yes, I do think we will find out.

BEHAR: Who is going to tell it?

FORMAN: One day that kid will fess up. I`m mean he`s 29 now. What`s interesting he had a falling-out with his father completely and is back with his mother who is sort of a nice lady.

BEHAR: He might have been depressed or whatever. Thanks, Roger. Thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.