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Health Care: Tonight's Vote Decide if Debate Can Begin; Should Women Put Out of Getting Mammograms until Age 50?; Senator Gregg Claims Democratic Healthcare Bill Will Cost $2.5 Trillion over Ten Years

Aired November 21, 2009 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. We want to get you right to Washington, D.C., to Capitol Hill as a matter of fact, where they are back at it again. Different set of lawmakers, same issue though. Health care reform. Two weeks ago it was the house working the weekend debating and voting. Tonight it is the senate. This time the senate is not voting on a bill, per se. They are voting on whether to start the health care debate in earnest. And we're going to repeat that throughout the evening so there's no confusion here for you.

What is happening tonight will decide whether official debate can begin on the bill. Well, tonight's vote represent as major test for senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Can he keep democrats united in the face of certain GOP opposition? It takes 60 votes to stop a filibuster and Reid needs to make sure he has those votes before doing anything else. Sixty yes votes means debate on the health care reform bill can begin. That bill covers 2,074 pages. It proposes to expand health care coverage to an additional 30 million Americans at a cost of $840 billion over ten years.

Cnn has been following the speeches since they began this morning and also yesterday evening. Senior Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash is on Capitol Hill. You see her there and our Kate Bolduan is at the white house. We'll be going to start with Dana though. Dana let's begin with you. Lots of debate on the floor today and yesterday evening. A short time ago, two key democratic hold out announced what they would do tonight. There was concern about them. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D), LOUISIANA: After a thorough review of the bill as I said over the last tow and a half days which included many lengthy discussions, I've decided that there are enough significant reforms and safeguards in this bill to move forward, but much more work needs to be done.

SEN. BLANCHE LINCOLN (D), ARKANSAS: I will vote to support -- will vote in support of cloture on the motion to proceed to this bill, but Madam President, let me be perfectly clear, I am opposed to a new government administered health care plan as a part of comprehensive health insurance reform, and I will not vote in favor of the proposal that has been introduced by leader Reid as it is written. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Dana. You saw Mary Landrieu there and also Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana. Not for them, democrats will be troubled tonight.

DANA BASH, SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, as of now, because of those two senators who have said, yes they will reluctantly, vote to proceed with this health care bill, Senator Reid does at least have that in his hat. And it is hard to imagine that he does not have 60 votes. It is the United States senate and anything could surprise us, but he can move on to the next chapter, but it is very clear in listening to those two senators and others who have not spoken on this senate floor but are equally skeptical on the democratic side, that yes, it's a hurdle that they're crossing now, it's important one but there are going to be major changes. There are going to have to be major changes for Senator Reid to get all democrats to ultimately vote for this health care bill, Don.

LEMON: All right Dana. Let's talk about what I said in the beginning of this. Just before I introduced you. What's in this bill? We talked it, it covered 2,074 pages. Expand health care coverage for 30 million Americans, $849 billion over ten years. Talk to us more about what's exactly in this bill.

BASH: Well, something that could affect a lot of Americans and it is very similar to what the house passed. If you have a pre-existing condition, under this bill, no longer would insurance companies be aloud to discriminate against you, and the also for most people in this country, under this bill, you would have to get insurance coverage. It would be a mandate from the government, or you would have to pay a fine. For people who can't afford it, they'll get help to do that. And we'll talk to a little bit about the public option. There is a public option in this bill that allows states to opt out, but, Don, those two democratic senators, specifically just to give you an example, they said they were very clear, they don't support the public option in this bill. So, it's in there now but it is pretty much impossible to imagine that as it is currently written and it is going to stay in this bill, or else it won't get off the floor.

LEMON: Eight hundred and forty nine billion dollars, eye-popping for legislators on both sides of the aisle.

BASH: Eye-popping and yet according to an independent estimate, at least in the short term, appears to be paid for with a lot of different -- a lot of different ways that they're doing this in the democratic leadership. And I'll go through some of the new taxes that some Americans would see to pay for this health care bill. Forty percent tax on so-called Cadillac plans or those high-cost insurance policies that many people have. The payroll Medicare tax already exists for most people.

It would be slightly increase for families making $250,000 or more, and then one of the new pay for the us as they call them here that is getting a lot of buzz, 5 percent tax on elective cosmetic surgery that would include most Botox and other cosmetic tweaks that people get and that are not covered, because they are elective. Those would be taxed by 5 percent and it would cost about -- it would actually get the treasury about $5 billion.

LEMON: OK. There we go. So the Botox clause, or whatever they're going to call it. All right Dana. What did you say?

BASH: The Botax.

LEMON: Botax. All right.

Good way to put it. Dana, stand by because we're going to be coming back to Dana throughout the evening here on CNN. We're going to carry this vote, remember this is a vote, they call it a vote on cloture. Whether or not to proceed forward with the official debate on health care and this is happening in the senate.

So we turn now to our Kate Bolduan, she is standing by at the white house. Kate, the president still optimistic, is he? That this bill will be signed by the end of the year? Doesn't look like he's going to get that, but is he optimistic about it?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would say, Don that the president is confident and he has said so. He's confident that he will get a bill. By the end the year, that's a little bit more unclear as you can see, this debate has drawn on and continues to go on. The white house aide tells me today that they here at the white house have been monitoring this debate very closely, as I'm sure you can guess and the president if you can be sure, is being kept up to date on both the vote count which is essential and how the debate has been continuing throughout the day and throughout the -- well, and moving now into the evening.

Just last night the white house issued a statement about this senate version of health care reform. They praised the senate bill. They also -- the administration is urging for quick action on it and he also says, it is quote, "It is a critical milestone in the effort to reform our health care system." So, maybe putting on a little bit pressure there to really try to move this forward. But as you've been mentioning and Dana has mentioned, this is far from the end of the road, far from the end of debate on this and we'll be watching and keeping an ear on for any comment or reaction from the white house this evening -- Don.

LEMON: Speaking of reaction from the white house. Can we anticipate seeing what can we from the white house in the coming weeks as this debate, no doubt, will continue?

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Well, think of it this way. We've been talking about it here. This is the president's number one domestic priority. While this vote, this evening is kind of a technical -- it will, it is a technical vote. It's not really talking about the bill as you mentioned. This is a critical step. And you can be sure in the coming weeks the white house will really be pushing and pressuring and really trying to push forward and keep the momentum to get a bill on the president's desk. The goal, as you mentioned is, by the end of the year. They're going to put a lot of political capital behind this already and you can be sure they'll going to be fighting to make this happen -- Don.

LEMON: Yes, fighting. Fighting hopefully in verbal terms, right? We don't know.

BASH: Playing nice, but fighting. You know.

LEMON: All right. Kate, thank you. Kate and Dana, both standing by in Washington. Again, we'll going to carry this vote for you, live here on cnn. So, stick around, and it's been a very interesting day watching the senate on the senate floor and there you see John McCain right there speaking as well and you see the bill, that 2000-page bill sitting right there on the table in front of him. They've been using that all day as sort of a prop as to just how big this bill is. Why don't we listen in to John McCain?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I'd like to pause that for a minute, because Senator Kyl and I represent the state of Arizona. We have thousands and thousands and thousands, and I'm going to get the number before this debate is over, of seniors who are on Medicare. Advantage. Now, they're going to cut out the Medicare advantage program and tell the American people that if you like your insurance policy you have, you can keep it? How does that work? And then there's the -- $50 billion is going to be cut from nursing homes. Forty billions from home health agencies and $8 billion is going to be cut in hospice care. My god! Hospice care. Eight billion dollars.

So here we are telling the American people that we're going to fix health care in America, and the way we're going to pay for the massive government takeover of health care is through cuts that, you know, it's terrible when on its face, but does anybody really believe that these cuts are going to take place? Does anybody really believe that the doctors are going to be cut $247 billion in the next ten years? Does anybody believe that we're going to cut $135 -- $247 billion or whatever it is from Medicare? We're not. We're not. And why aren't we?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: John McCain on the senate floor debating whether or not this bill should go ahead, proceed for debate, which is official cloture, and that's what it's being called. He's talking about Medicare advantage. The cost has been debated all day. The public option. Abortion and on and on and on. As I said, it's been a very interesting day watching the senate floor. We'll going to dip in and out of this for you, bring it to you live and also the vote coming up in less than three hours.

A vote to put health care reform for official debate coming up in this couple of hours. Lots of back and forth. Senators debate whether to have a debate at all. So, we'll keep watching that for you plus an entirely different health care debate that's gotten a lot of people fired up. The debate over breast cancer screening. We're talking with the survivor and the doctor in just a minute and will help us straighten out all of this confusion. Well, hopefully some of it. Probably not all of it.

And make sure you join our conversation, that's how you do it. You see it there. Twitter, face book, MySpace, iReport.com. We're back moments away.

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LEMON: I want to tell you, we are following the vote on health care, whether or not to proceed with that debate. We're following the senate in Washington. Live pictures now. We want to take you there and we want to show you what will going to happen in just a couple of hours. So, we want you to stay here with cnn and we will carry it for you and give you analysis. The best political team on television is standing by with everything for you. We'll talk about the different health care debate now.

Should women put out of getting mammograms until age 50? A federal task force this week said yes setting off a storm of controversy. But then Health Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said "Federal policy has not change, women should keep on doing what they have been doing." So, what's going on here? Here's what. There's real fear insurance companies will use the new recommendations to stop coverage for earlier screenings. Sebelius says, "That's not likely to happen." So I want to join -- now -- do we have that sound bite from her? No.

All right. So, we'll go and we'll talk to Michelle Montalvo. She is a breast cancer survivor and Dr. Otis Brawley, he joins me here at CNN Center. He is the Chief Medical Officer for the American Cancer Society. They're both with us and they want to -- they're going to explain to us the pros and the cons of this, the information we're trying to get past the misinformation. Right, doctor? We'll going to begin with Michelle first. So, let's start with you. What was your reaction to these new federal guidelines when they came out earlier this week? Recommendations, I should say.

Michelle Montalvo, BREAST CANCER SURVIVOR: I was rendered speechless. Being a breast cancer survivor that was diagnosed at age 38 and who had breast cancer detected through a mammogram myself I was -- I was speechless and I was concerned for women who finally are, you know, very aware about breast health, now thinking that they have an extra ten years before even needing to worry about it.

LEMON: And you are -- what is it? Thirty eight. So, if you had waited, do you feel like you might not be sitting here with us today?

MONTALVO: I feel like if I waited until I was 50, I would have had a very different situation. I was fortunate that they found it very, very early, and so my prognosis is fantastic. Whereas, if they had found it later, even a couple of years later, I may not be here.

LEMON: And they talk a lot about in this study about, there's worry. Where you may not need to worry. You worry ten years earlier than you should, because you may get a diagnosis, or you may have a lump and then, you know, you go in to get it checked out. And all of a sudden, it turns out to be nothing. And had you waited, you wouldn't have that concern or worry. MONTALVO: Well, I would have to beg to differ with that. Personally I would rather know than not know. It seems that not knowing would lead to ignorance. And if I had waited, again, my situation personally would have been different and early detection is a lot easier on women in terms of treatment and being able to avoid things like chemotherapy, if they're diagnosed early, as well as have much better life expectancy. Not to mention the cost on the overall system.

LEMON: Yes. Is it just you, or do you have friends or do you have other family member whose have had similar, had been diagnosed with cancer that you know?

MONTALVO: Interestingly enough, I had personally no family history. So, there was no reason to expect that I would have come with the diagnosis of breast cancer. It was absolute lay shocker, but to tell you the truth, I have nine people that I know in my immediate circle of friends, or friends of friends that I know who were diagnosed with breast cancer under the age of 40 with no family history.

LEMON: OK. Stand by. Because we're going to bring someone else in who really has some experience with this. It touches her personally. And we're talking about our meteorologist here Jacqui Jeras, she knows a lot about this. Jacqui, your mom, your aunt and several other women in your family diagnosed with breast cancer. Has this sparked a debate in your family, especially women about these new recommendations?

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Oh, yes. We've all been talking about it. Obviously, it concerned all of us and we're high risk. So, you know, I'm not 40 yet but I've had mammograms already. So, I think I'd be one of those people that would probably get them regardless of the guidelines. But one of the biggest things that my mom who is a survivor has been concerned about is having a base line, right? So, you have a mammogram maybe at age 40 and then you have something to compare it to if you go every other year as opposed to waiting for 50. So, that was one of her big things. She said, well if you want to reduce the number of mammograms that you get, that's fine, but let's start early enough and then if necessary, you know, we'll do it more frequently, if we start to find something a little suspicious.

LEMON: All right. Thank you. Let's talk to Dr. Otis Brawley who is here right here, he is with the American Cancer Society, Former Co- chair of the Surgeon's General's Task Force on cancer. I want to play this for you and then I'll get your reaction to it and the reaction of both, to what both these ladies said. OK?

DR. OTIS BRAWLEY, EXEC. V.P. AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY PEARSON, EXEC. DIR. NATL. WOMEN'S HEALTH NETWORK: The important thing to note is that in their 40s, some women will be found to have a breast cancer and treat it for that breast cancer that never would have killed them, that might have actually even gone away on its own. Now, no one who's been treated for breast cancer could possibly believe she was the one who didn't need the treatment, and I wouldn't try to tell a woman that, either, but if you look at the big studies, that's what they show.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Your reaction, doctor?

BRAWLEY: Yes. Well, Ms. Pearson is correct, however, there are several clinical trials that have randomized women in their 40s to be screened with mammography on an annual basis versus not screened and the end result is, we have more women alive in the screened group. Yes, we do treat some people who don't need to be treated. Yes, we do have some false alarms. We need to let people know about that. Then we need to encourage them to get this test, because we have definite evidence that screening people in their 40s saves lives. The task force that recommended against screening women in their 40s says it's a 15 percent decrease in mortality. We actually think it's much larger than that, by the way. So there's no question this test saves lives. Let's not get into the economic argument. Let's just do the test and save the lives.

LEMON: What about, I guess the mental pressure or the concern or worry about something that may not happen or may not be happening? Because that is part of this recommendation? Saying that you know, this is causing women unnecessarily to fear that they might have cancer when most times they don't.

BRAWLEY: Yes. I think that if you tell people what to expect, if you tell people that this is an imperfect test but it's the best test that we have so far and it is the test that actually has been shown to save lives, I think a lot of people will have a lot less anxiety. Yes, you're going to have more people in their 40s called back for repeat scans. Yes, you're go going to have increased numbers of people biopsied in their 40s, but if you tell them that before their screened and tell them the truth which is this test saves lives, I think you're decreasing anxiety.

LEMON: OK. Listen, Michelle, you're still there. Right?

MONTALVO: I am.

LEMON: When you went in for -- what diagnose did you go in for an ultrasound? Did you go for mammogram? What was it when you got your diagnosis? Did they do a biopsy?

MONTALVO: So what happened was, I went in and I had some breast pain, and they -- the doctor found a lump, and where I go, where you have a lump, its standard course of care to have a mammogram and an ultrasound. When I had the mammogram, it was my first mammogram due to my age and ...

LEMON: The only reason you did it because you thought you are overexerted yourself on a treadmill, so you wouldn't have even gone in this early, right?

MONTALVO: I would not have gone in. And it was -- there was lump that was detected, and on the other side, my other breast, I also had a mammogram calcification that was biopsied and came back for breast cancer.

LEMON: Real quickly Michelle, I know that when I was talking to the doctor you were shaking your head in agreement, at what?

MONTALVO: I was shaking my head in agreement because it's better to know than not know, and I would much rather be in a position where I'd have a biopsy that would come back negative or a clear finding than to find out multiple years later that I have breast cancer, and it could have been found with tools that we have today. It just wasn't recommended.

LEMON: Jacqui Jeras shared that similar sentiment with me in the newsroom about your mom and about the other members of your family.

JERAS: I'd rather know than not know. Obviously. You know, there is some stress and anxiety involved but I think everybody kind of has that anyway. That some day you're going to get sick, but one of the other unique situations that happened with my mom is that she had breast cancer in one side and she thought the other one was just fine and she decided to go with the double mastectomy because our family history is so great. And so, it turned out after the fact, they did the biopsy and she actually had it in both sides.

LEMON: In both sides. Thank you very much doctor, five seconds here. We have to run. But I'll let you finish it up.

BRAWLEY: Yes, it's important to realize that about half of all women in their 30s and 40s who find a mass in their breasts or who are diagnosed with breast cancer do it by finding a mass in their breasts. Those people don't benefit from mammographic screening. So, bottom line, if you feel an abnormality in your breast, go see a doctor.

LEMON: Your own recommendation, right? Do what you feel is best, right? These are just recommendations.

BRAWLEY: Right.

LEMON: And so, we could talk about this, you know, all evening. But Jacqui, will do it -- I know you want to get your point across. But we have to go because it's vote night on Capitol Hill. Thanks all of you and Michelle as well in Chicago.

And as we say, it's vote night on Capitol Hill. Let's get you there live. We're keeping a watch on the senate right now as the vote on whether to debate health care reform approaches. You see us here talking about the new mammogram recommendations, breast cancer, and all those things. That goes directly with what they're voting on now. What will be covered, what isn't covered? So, you need to pay attention here. It's set for 8:00 tonight d.c. time. That's Eastern Time.

And right now it looks like the Majority Leader has what he needs to put the bill on the floor. We're going to carry it for you live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. We're continuing now to follow live the debate going on in the senate vote coming up very shortly. And we have some of the people who are involved in that. This is Senator Bennett from Utah speaking right now, and I want to go to someone who is -- I actually watched today. Expect a no vote from this man. There you see him right there. Senator Judd Gregg from New Hampshire, Top Republican on the Budget Committee.

Senator, thank you for joining us today. It's a very busy day for you. It's going to be a very busy evening. So on the floor today you said that democrats estimated price tag is a bogus number. That the actual cost is way higher than that $849 million?

SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Absolutely. Because what they've done here is they've taken a ten-year cost for this bill and what they've done in the first year, the ten years, is they've started the fee, they've started the taxes and they've started the Medicare cuts. But they don't start the spending on the program until the fourth and fifth year of the bill. So, the actual programs don't start until 2014. So, the only costs over the last five to six years of the bill and you're not matching the full ten year period. If you take the full ten years of this bill when it's fully functioning. In other words, when all the programs are up and running, it's a $2.5 trillion bill. That's a simple fact.

LEMON: There was concern for a couple senators. One was Mary Landrieu in New Orleans, I'm not sure if it was Mary Landrieu or it was Christopher Bond (ph) who made this point earlier today saying that, you know, this wasn't about partisan politics. It wasn't about right or left. Remember why you guys came to Washington and that was to help people and why you started this whole debate, which was to reform health care and this was just the beginning of the bill that would change. So, why not sign on to a bill and then help effort the change that you think it needs?

GREGG: Because this is a terrible place to start. This is the most massive expansion in the government that we've ever seen, at least in my experience in government. It's a tremendous move down the road towards what I call single payer system, where the government basically influences almost all elements of health care and how you deal with your doctor. How you deal with your issues of health care. It is a massive reduction in cut in Medicare. A trillion dollars when fully phased in, which instead of being used to help solidify medicare, which on a very shaky ground. In fact it's headed towards insolvency is used to create a brand new entitlement which we really can't afford now, and it is a huge tax on small employers who will inevitably end up giving up their health insurance plans because the premium will start to go up so high that there are people can't afford them and people will be forced on to this government plan.

It is really not a well thought out proposal. There are very strong and positive things we can do to reform health care. I have bill which addresses that. For example, we can take on abusive lawsuits in this system. We feel the defensive medicine about $230 billion a year. Cdo scores an abusive lawsuit change, is about a $54 billion savings. There's nothing in this bill about that because the trial lawyers didn't want it. We could allow employers, for example, to pay more to their employees with a healthy lifestyle. If you stop smoking, you paid more.

If you lose weight, through exercise, you loss more. If you get your mammogram tests when you should. If you get your colon cleansing when you should, you should be paid more. That line was taken out of this bill. Why? Because the labor industry doesn't want that. So, there are a lot of things we can do to improve this concept of health care reform without moving down the road towards the nationalized system.

LEMON: All right. I just had a few seconds left here but I remembered you saying, I'll look at it, you said, "You called it a bait and switch from democrats today." Why did you say that?

GREGG: The numbers are pure bait and switch. To claim that this is an $843 billion bill is just an outrageous statement -- it is an outrageously inaccurate statement.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: More like, what the $2.5 trillion?

GREGG: That's right. As I explained before. They only counted for five to six years of the spending in a ten-year window. They didn't start the spending in time -- in fact, Harry Reid had to change and take another year out of spending so that he could get under the trillion number and if you use the real numbers over a ten year period, this bill spends $2.5 trillion, because it creates a massive new entitlement, massive new spending.

DON LEMON, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Let me ask you this. What happens -- and, again, we've got to run. And again, we see John McCain live on the floor there.

What happens tomorrow morning? Take us to the morning talk shows. I'm not sure if you're booked on one or what have you. You believe the Democrats have the votes to pass this.

GREGG: Oh, yes.

LEMON: At least to get the debate going. We want to make it clear. This is not the vote on the bill. This is to get the debate going.

GREGG: But it is a very important vote, because 97 percent of the bills that win on a motion to proceed, are passed, they're passed. This is firing real bullets. What happens tomorrow morning? I hope everyone goes home and actually enjoys Thanksgiving, goes back to their districts and listens to constituents. Then we're going to come back the week of the 30th and we begin the amendment process.

We, as Republicans, will offer a whole series of what we consider very constructive amendments to significantly improve health care in this country. I'll be offer some on abusive lawsuits, the issue of allowing employers -- the things I just outlined -- to be able to pay their employees if they live a healthy life sometime, things like that.

LEMON: We're so happy you joined us. Happy Thanksgiving.

GREGG: Thank you. Same to you.

LEMON: If you're around tonight come back at talk in the 10:00 p.m. hour. We'll carry this live. Senator Judd Gregg, appreciate it.

LEMON: We are carrying this vote here live. It's called a vote on cloture to continue the debate on health care, really the debate in earnest as the official debate. All the talking you've seen, doesn't matter. It wasn't official. This is official now, once it's passed. And they believe they do have the 60 votes, Democrats do, to pass.

Let's listen in a little bit and we're going to talk to some other lawmakers here live.

This is Jon Kyl who is in the same state with John McCain.

SEN. JON KYL, (R), ARIZONA: ... said that not only would the increased taxes on the pharmaceutical industry, the medical device industry and the insurance industry be passed on to consumers in the form of higher premiums, but that overall, under the legislation that was before us, that for the average family as compared to what the prices are today, that insurance premiums would actually go up. And that this was one of the two major reasons. The other bean mandated benefits.

LEMON: Jon Kyl from Arizona as well speaking. And you see John McCain there as well.

So it's all happening now on the Senator floor. Again, we're carrying it four live and we will give you smart analysis from the best political team on television. Not only the best political team on television, from the people who are helping to draft these bills and debating -- who are debating this legislation.

We have heard from the Republicans now. We want to hear from the Democrats. Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey joins us.

It looks like the Democrats have enough votes to win this, Senator, but this is just the start of this battle.

SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ, (D), NEW JERSEY: Absolutely, Don, and it should be the start of a national debate. This is a historic moment. This is major legislation. We are trying to accomplish driving down the cost of health care for all of those who have it, being able to stop the insurance companies from arbitrarily capriciously denying people when they need their insurance the most, and creating an opportunity for over 31 million more Americans who don't have health insurance in the greatest country of the world to be able to have access to it.

I don't quite understand why our Republican colleagues are simply reticent to even begin the debate, except for the fact they have no plan whatsoever. They've presided over the incredible explosion of skyrocketing premiums. They basically sat on the side of the insurance companies and, I guess, that's why they don't want to have the debate move forward.

LEMON: Well, I mean, certainly you can understand the concern from the -- the concern from many Americans about the money that we're spending in the country. The bailouts, and that this is going to cost $8 -- almost $900 billion. According to the Republican Senator on before, he believes $2.5 trillion. You can understand why Republicans are concerned about the cost of this thing.

MENENDEZ: First of all, if we're going to start throwing out wild numbers for the sake of scaring the American people, then, yes, I would assume that if people believe that, they would be scared. but, you know, Senator Gregg knows very well as the ranking Democrat -- I mean ranking Republican of so many years and formerly the budget chairman, that the Congressional Budget Office, the non-partisan entity we depend on to give us a fair analysis of legislation and what it costs, has said that this bill costs about $840 billion, that it is fully paid for, that it will reduce the deficit in the first ten years by $130 billion, and that in the second ten years, it will reduce the deficit by $650 billion.

Now, unless we're going to jettison the one non-partisan entity that does the analysis that both Republicans and Democrats have depended on and throw out wild numbers, like $2.5 trillion, you know, it seems to me that we have an entity that has studied this, made the decisions as to what it costs, how it paid for, what it does for the deficit, what it will do to add insurance for millions of Americans, and how it also helps to bend the cost curve so we stop the double-digit premium increases that families are seeing in their health insurance and that businesses are seeing as they try to provide that health insurance for their employees.

LEMON: So, listen, you know, we saw Blanche Lincoln come out, Democrat from Arkansas. We saw Mary Landrieu, Democrat from my home state of Louisiana, and the Democrats were concerned about them. You have to have 60 votes. With the Democrats, you believe they'll have 60 votes. Are you afraid of defectors, and is that a real possibility here?

MENENDEZ: No. I believe we will have 60 votes tonight, simply to proceed to a debate, a consideration of the legislation, amendments that will be offered to improve it, for those who have concerns about how it is drafted as it is, to be able to modify it and change it. That's what we do through the legislative process nap is the essence of democracy. That is the American way. All we're trying to do is proceed to that process.

Now, we could have done this without having gone through the 60 votes, but, of course, our Republican colleagues have taken the view that they want to deny -- unfortunately, Don, they have been on the wrong side of history in the major moments in this country's history that has made the quality of life for citizens so much better. On Social Security, they were, no. On Medicare, they were, no. On unemployment insurance, they were, no. So it's not surprising that here on health care reform to reduce costs for families who have it, to stop arbitrary and capricious denials of health insurance companies and give millions more opportunities, they are once again on the wrong side of history by saying no.

LEMON: I want to get you back to talk about -- because there are so many things I heard today as I was listening in the public option, which is a huge deal, that many don't think there will be a public option on this particular bill, the final bill. Abortion a huge debate today. We talked about the cost and also legal immigration. You know, I'm up against a break here. On the last one, illegal immigration, talk to me about -- just give me your thoughts on that real quick, because I've got to run.

MENENDEZ: Basically, what this bill does, it says to legal permit residents of the United states who obey the law, follow the rules. they'll have access to the exchange in subsidies and that mixed-status families a family who has a U.S. Citizen spouse and the maybe some other member of their family who's undocumented, waiting that change their status, that they'll be considered in terms of their income in a way that will give the U.S. citizen members of that family an honest shot at the subsidy. That's how we treat -- but no undocumented immigrant gets any access to the exchange, any access to the subsidies.

LEMON: Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey. Appreciate it.

MENENDEZ: Good to be with you.

LEMON: We're looking live at the Senate floor. And, again a vote underway in just a bit. We're going to carry it for you live here on CNN and we'll get back to that live after this.

But first I want to talk about the "Killings at the Canal: the Army Tapes." It is a story of three decorated U.S. soldiers, four dead Iraqi detainees and the interrogation tapes you'll only see right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A CNN special investigation, "Killing at the Canal, the Army Tapes" premieres tonight at 8:00 p.m. here on CNN. It's the story about the murders of four Iraqi detainees by three decorated Army sergeants in Baghdad. The revealing documentary examines the reasons behind the murders and the role of the Army's own rules of handling detainees here.

"Special Investigations Unit's" correspondent, Abbey Boudreau, joins us with a preview.

What do you have?

ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN CSI CORRESPONDENT: This is a really complex and emotional story. During our investigation, we obtained 23.5 hours of Army interrogation tapes, tapes you'll only see on CNN. On those tapes, one of the sergeants, Michael Leahy, confesses to the crime. We asked his wife about her reaction to finding out her husband was being charged with murder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BOUDREAU: Oh, wow. Do you love it?

JAMIE LEAHY, WIFE OF MICHAEL LEAHY: I do. It was the most beautiful thing I had seen and it just looked wonderful on. It's really good to see it again, and -- it's kind of bittersweet, but -- I know it's going to happen.

BOUDREAU (voice-over): Life is on hold for Jamie Leahy.

LEAHY: I will wear it. I'm determined to wear it some day with him.

BOUDREAU: They were married by a justice of the peace when her husband was between deployments. But she wanted a traditional wedding, the beautiful gown, the big reception in her grandparents' backyard.

LEAHY: This is where it was going to be. Over here, an arch, round tables, just placed all around.

BOUDREAU (on camera): Did you ever have the ceremony and the reception?

LEAHY: No, we haven't yet, because our plans were in February 2008. So -- but -- the investigation started in January. So...

BOUDREAU (voice-over): Her husband, Sergeant Michael Leahy, a Purple Heart recipient and a medic, was charged with the unthinkable -- premeditated murder. He was one of three Army sergeants accused in the execution of four Iraqi detainees, and the dumping of their bodies into this canal.

It was a secret he eventually would have to tell his wife. He described that conversation in this Army interrogation tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL LEAHY, ARMY SERGEANT: I told her that, I said, "Honey, I'm going to tell you something and I understand if you don't forgive me, but I'm not a good person because I murdered someone in Iraq. I killed someone in Iraq."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOUDREAU (on camera): Did you ever think that your husband was capable of killing like this?

LEAHY: No. I didn't. That's why I -- am trying to understand what was going on in his head. What was going on around him? That could bring him to something, a situation like that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOUDREAU (voice-over): Sergeant Leahy's confession is one part of the hours and hours of Army interrogation tapes we'll see in our documentary. The tapes also revealed the Army's concern that the fallout from the murders would turn into a public relations nightmare. It's all part of "Killings at the Canal: the Army Tapes" coming up tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN.

LEMON: Abbie, you ultimately talked to the wives of the three sergeants that you talked about there in this convicted of murder in this case. So who at prison in Ft. Leavenworth, how are they handling this? and how are the other wives dealing with this?

BOUDREAU: We ultimately talked to all three wives, the other two that Ito talked to, Kim Hatley and Joanna Mayo. Kim Hatley is this very strong woman who feels like -- she won't even let her cry in private, because of her husband, who's in prison. Her 19-year-old son, who's fighting in Afghanistan right now. And then we also talked to Joanna Mayo, and she has a completely different kind of story, where she has three children, ages ranging from 11 years old to 15 months. She's legally blind, cannot drive. She needs her husband home. All of these wives obviously want their husbands home, but it could be a very long road ahead for them.

LEMON: It sounds like heart wrenching and just an emotional story to watch.

Abbie, thank you. We will be watching.

Abbie's special investigation, it's called "Killings at the Canal: The Army Tapes." It airs tonight, 8:00 p.m. eastern only here on CNN. You do not want to miss that.

We are watching the Senate as it debates what to do about a health care reform bill. We'll push it right ahead for you. And there is the Senate floor right there. And we'll tell you what's going on. Some analysis from the best political team on television coming up.

When we come back, what a difference a year can make for a "CNN Hero."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Your votes are in. More than 2.5 million cast for the "CNN Hero" of the year, and next week we will introduce you to the winner. We have introduced you to our top-ten "CNN Heroes", all of whom will be honored on Thanksgiving night.

What is being a "CNN Hero" of the year mean? Terrence Howard has the story of Liz McCartney, the 2008 "CNN Hero" of the year, and what a difference a year can make.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TERRENCE HOWARD: Hello. I'm Terrence Howard. During last year's "CNN Hero, An All-star Tribute," I had the honor of recognizing CNN's Hero of the Year, Liz McCartney, for her extraordinary work in helping survivors of Hurricane Katrina. Since then, her organization has built 50 more homes in New Orleans and nearly another 60 are under construction.

As we approach this year's tribute show, Thanksgiving night, let us look back at last year's "CNN Hero" of the year, Liz McCartney. LIZ MCCARTNEY, 2008 CNN HERO OF THE YEAR: The heroes' award was like a shot in the arm for the region. It reinvigorated people, made them feel like across the country and around the world people still care.

All sorts of doors have been opened for the project as a result of the award. Volunteers, clients, donors. I think every week people say, I heard about the St. Bernard project on "CNN Heroes."

In the greater New Orleans area, there are over 10,000 households still struggling to secure permanent, stable housing.

To date we've had over 16,000 volunteers. We are going to be celebrating the 240th home that we've completed. We have expanded our capacity. We're also building homes in New Orleans. But it also helped us start a center for wellness and mental health.

So it helped us rebuild people's homes and lives. We're getting there, but there's still work to be done. A couple more years and we'll be there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Our 2009 CNN Hero of the Year and all of our amazing top-ten "CNN Heroes" will be honored at an all-star tribute hosted by Anderson Cooper from the Kodak Theatre in Hollywood. That will happen on Thanksgiving night. It will be a special event, and you'll see it right here on CNN.

In the meantime, live back to Washington. There you see on Capitol Hill on the Senate floor, we're keeping a close eye as the vote on a health care reform bill approaches, really on the debate on that bill, about whether or not to debate it or to dump it. We're going to carry it live for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. Live coverage of the Senate vote. Really, it's not the vote right now. This is the debate before the vote. The vote could happen at any moment. And they're voting on whether or not to continue to debate on this, and really it's called cloture. It's the debate in earnest. The official debate can start after this vote tonight if Democrats get the 60 votes they need in order to pass this debate vote. It sounds a little bit confusing, but they're just debating on whether or not -- voting on whether or not to keep debating on this.

Democrats do believe that they do have it. The two holdouts that they thought -- Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and also Democratic Senator Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas. They were concerned that those two ladies there, those two Senators, might vote against this debate to move forward. They had some concerns about it. But today they came out, this afternoon, about 2:00, they came out, 1:00, 2:00, they came out and said they were going to vote for it. We've had several Democratic Senators on saying that they were confident, that they were going to have the votes tonight, and that this was important. Don't think it wasn't important because as a vote on debating. This was important for the country because they believed that this moves the health care debate forward in a way that it hasn't been moved forward before.

Carrying it live for you on CNN. And we'll continue with it right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(FIT NATION)

LEMON: Thank you, Doctor.

And speaking of being fit, some people, during this health care debate, have said, if you stay fit, if you get early checkups, then you won't have to really go into the health care system early on in your life, and you won't have to deal with any of this.

There you see the live debate happening in Washington on the Senate floor about whether or not to continue this debate on the health care bill, officially continue this. And if this happens, it will happen sometime within the next hour, hour and a half, and we'll bring it to you live here on CNN.

Again, we're watching here. This is Robert Bennett from Utah speaking now. It's been a contentious day there. You want to stay tuned to us throughout the evening for that.

Meantime, I'm Don Lemon, here at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. We'll see you back here at the top of the hour, or when that vote does happen.