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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Sarah Palin`s Stylist; Who Will Take Over Oprah`s Show?
Aired November 23, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, they say that clothes make the man, but do they also make the woman? Joining me for an exclusive interview is Lisa Kline, the stylist who spent $150,000 controversial dollars styling Sarah Palin.
Also, Oprah announced that she will be walking away from her show in 2011. What will she do? Where will she go? And who will take over? We`ll discuss that.
At the American Music Awards, Adam Lambert gave a raunchy performance that made the audience go gaga. But if Lady Gaga or any woman had done that, would there be this much outrage?
All that and more starts right now.
Good news, America. Just in time for Christmas, a wise man from the East has arrived to save us. Glenn Beck is here, and he`s brought with him frankincense, myrrh and a 100-year plan to restore America to its greatness.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS HOST: I am drafting plans now to bring us back to an America that our founders would understand. I`m developing a 100- year plan for America; 100-year plan. We will plant this idea and it will sprout roots.
Come August 28th, I would like you to make your plans now to join me at the feet of Abraham Lincoln in Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is this guy serious or is he just trying to sell more books? Joining me now is Bradley Whitford, Emmy award winning actor; Nancy Giles, social commentator, contributor to CBS "Sunday Morning", one of my favorite shows; and comedian Amy Schumer. Welcome, everybody.
Why do we have to wait 100 years? Why can`t it be a ten-year plan? Why does it have to a 100-year plan?
NANCY GILES, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: You know, he`s suffering from complete delusions of grandeur, number one. And number two, I`m insulted because he`s picked the same day I think, or around the same time of year as the real march on Washington.
And I think he`s reframing his new march on Washington, this 100- year plan, which as a black person, I`m not too happy about that because whenever they want to sort of go back to the roots and the founding fathers, yes, that`s when we were slaves. So I`m not so happy about that.
BRADLEY WHITFORD, EMMY AWARD WINNING ACTOR: He`s obviously an ego- crazed self-promoting guy who needs...
BEHAR: Attention.
WHITFORD: Who needs attention. As an actor I find that disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFORD: I mean, he wears makeup and talks about policy. It`s disgusting.
The thing that upsets me most about him and I`m against the death penalty in all cases except for bad acting, where I think it should be put down. He does a thing that newscasters, it drives me nuts. Don Phillips (ph) did it. Lou Dobbs did it. Got fired.
BEHAR: What is it that they do?
WHITFORD: He does this. He`ll be looking into the camera and he`s clearly reading something and then he`ll pretend to think. Then he`ll come back.
AMY SCHUMER, COMEDIAN: That was really good.
WHITFORD: Lou Dobbs would do that. It`s fake. Whatever.
SCHUMER: You just nailed it. I think everything is fake about Glenn Beck. He drives me absolutely insane. It`s more than delusions of grandeur. Fox News has created a monster and he has the confidence. It`s familiar to me. It looks like Hitler.
The cover of his book, he`s dressed as a Nazi. Have you sign the cover of his book? Horrifying.
WHITFORD: He`s -- you know, the problem is it`s a sensation. He`s promoting a book, blah, blah -- like a lot of people are. But he`s a hypocrite. You cannot be pro-life -- pro-life and pro-war. You cannot be pro-life which is the term that has been co-opted and not be for universal health care. 18,000 people die every year unnecessarily.
What upsets me really more than him going prematurely orange for a while in his horrible acting...
BEHAR: Prematurely orange?
WHITFORD: He went kind of orange.
BEHAR: The skin color?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Because he`s in Florida.
WHITFORD: Oh, ok.
BEHAR: That`s the problem. Florida -- turns you into an orange.
WHITFORD: His policies make no sense and I think he`s a hypocrite.
(CROSSTALK)
GILES: Can I say one thing about Glenn Beck that really bothers me, he puffs and blows and then he doesn`t show up for the big rallies that he inspires which is really -- Glenn Beck. It`s real cowardice, I thought.
BEHAR: Does he think Obama destroyed the whole country in eight months? What about the eight years before that?
GILES: Oh please. They didn`t hear about that.
BEHAR: They never talk about that.
GILES: That didn`t exist.
BEHAR: Let`s move on. John McCain opened up about Sarah Palin this weekend. He said, "I enjoyed the book." You know, the book. The book. "She and I are dear friends. I talked to her on the phone yesterday. We got along fine. In campaigns there`s always tensions, always differences that arise, but it`s no big deal." On the BS scale, what do you rate this?
WHITFORD: First of all, John McCain, the thought of him for -- you know, it`s interesting. Often these guys who say that, you know, I`m really independent, you know, I`m a maverick...
GILES: Right.
WHITFORD: And then it`s like Lieberman. It just curdles into, oh, it`s just self-interest. That`s why I don`t go along with everybody -- just pragmatic self-interest. He knew he was going to lose the campaign. He did a horribly irresponsible thing by putting -- he`s a cancer survivor and he was willing to risk a totally unqualified person being a heart beat away from the presidency.
BEHAR: In the form of Sarah Palin. Which, by the way, he might have been -- he was coerced by the GOP. He wanted Tom Ridge if I recall.
GILES: And you know what? That was another thing that showed his lack of leadership. If that`s who he wanted then damn it, stand with it, instead of being pawned off with this, you know, complete cheerleader.
She`s another one like Glenn Beck; very, very, very dangerous.
BEHAR: Sarah?
GILES: Yes. The more the so-called left coast elite belittles her, the more power, the more huff and puff she gets from everybody else. It`s weird. It`s like you almost don`t want to talk about her, but if you do and you make those comments -- oh my God.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: She`s a liar. She just spews lies. I think John McCain...
BEHAR: Politicians, lies, they have to go together.
SCHUMER: I know but hers are irresponsible. They`re not believable and she contradicts herself like a lot...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: Right. Come on, sell it, Sarah, sell it. Nobody is buying it anymore.
WHITFORD: Again, don`t forget the -- if anybody watching out there says they are pro-life and was also pro-war and is not for universal health care, you`re a hypocrite.
BEHAR: Yes.
GILES: I agree.
BEHAR: You can be pro-choice and also be against the death penalty and that`s a contradiction, too.
WHITFORD: Yes, it is.
BEHAR: Ok. It`s not just on the right. It`s also on the left.
GILES: There`s no hypocrisy on the left.
BEHAR: Yes, there is.
WHITFORD: There is.
BEHAR: Let me ask you, do you think that these people like Schmidt and Wallace, these two guys from the campaign who have been hit hard by Sarah in the book, do you think they`re going write books to counteract this?
GILES: I don`t think they have big enough names for anybody to care about their book. No offense. I don`t.
And she`s just -- she keeps lying. You know, the interesting thing about McCain is, he stays above the fray but he sends his sort of second and third in command to trash her, trash her, trash her.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true.
GILES: Yes.
BEHAR: "Saturday Night Live" did a spoof on both Beck and Palin. Let`s watch that for fun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nation has a new president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sarah Palin.
SARAH PALIN, AUTHOR, "GOING ROGUE: AN AMERICAN LIFE": As for my running mate, it was an honor to stand beside a true American hero.
BECK: I`m sorry. I`m just a guy who cares an awful lot about my country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, "Saturday Night Live" had a lot to do with destroying Sarah Palin`s candidacy.
GILES: Oh, man.
BEHAR: Can they destroy Glenn Beck, too, though? That`s what I want to know.
WHITFORD: Oh my God, he is so right for...
GILES: The crying. Get it good -- get it going.
SCHUMER: Give him a minute.
WHITFORD: No, for -- it`s just hard to talk about...
BEHAR: He`s a big cry baby.
WHITFORD: You know what`s weird, too, these right wing -- what I tend to see as sort of, you know, you know, Jesus, of course, was a great supply side guy. You know? Don`t help the poor people, you`re going to make them lazy. Get as rich as you possibly can.
But when you`re hearing those policies from Rush Limbaugh it makes sense. When you`re hearing it from Richard Simmons, it`s odd.
GILES: I`ll tell you the other thing...
SCHUMER: It makes even more sense.
GILES: I`ll tell you what also bugs me about Glenn Beck and those guys. They have five nights a week on network television, then they also have radio shows. They really choke the airwaves. They`re all over the place.
BEHAR: Wait a second. I have two shows.
GILES: But you`re you.
BEHAR: I know. I`m me.
New pictures of Levi Johnston; they`re out from playgirl.com and on the Huffington Post. Let`s look at them. What do you think? Hot or not? Hot or not?
GILES: Is that all we have?
BEHAR: There`s another one. Whoa, baby. Is anybody ever going to get tired of him in America, do you think?
WHITFORD: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
BEHAR: Are you enjoying these a little too much?
WHITFORD: No, no, no. I`m just...
SCHUMER: He just wants another minute.
WHITFORD: I`m interested --
SCHUMER: Do you need some privacy?
WHITFORD: No. That`s brave when you shoot something like that in Canada, to be that naked.
SCHUMER: He`s a child. I can`t believe he`s allowed to make these decisions. I don`t know who he thinks is looking at these magazines. He`s like, "I can`t wait for all these ladies." I`m like, "That`s not who`s looking at those, sweetheart."
BEHAR: You know, I don`t think he cares about that. I think he knows it`s gay people who are watching this and he doesn`t care. He just wants to be famous like Sarah.
GILES: You know what. I believe though everything he says. Everything that comes out of his mouth I believe to be the truth. That she says those bad things about the baby that`s mentally challenged. That she comes home from work as a governor...
SCHUMER: You believe everything?
GILES: Yes and lies around and watches TV and have sandwiches.
SCHUMER: Good for her.
BEHAR: Ok, I`ve got to talk to --- before we go, give me a second here. You`re in town.
WHITFORD: Well, I think Glenn Beck is a great gay icon.
BEHAR: He could be. But all right we`ll deal with that...
WHITFORD: No, I have to say this.
BEHAR: Hopenhagen, go ahead.
WHITFORD: Go to hopenhagen.com. We`re trying to generate some pressure on the politicians to make some progress at the United Nations Climate Change Treaty...
BEHAR: The climate change is going to kill us.
Thanks to my panel.
When we come back: my exclusive interview with the woman responsible for styling Sarah Palin. Yes, don`t go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: During the election last year so much was made about Sarah Palin`s expensive wardrobe. I wasn`t sure if I was watching a presidential campaign or "Project Runway." Just this past week Oprah asked Sarah Palin about the clothing controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW": That whole process of getting you to the stage, you walked in and there`s the wardrobe.
PALIN: Yes.
WINFREY: They had already provided the wardrobe for you?
PALIN: Yes.
WINFREY: Was that fun, exciting? I think that would be kind of cool.
PALIN: It was practically speaking, "Oh, good," because I don`t like to shop. And that`s going to be one less thing for me to worry about, never thinking that it was going to be a big controversy because it wasn`t a controversy with other candidates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me now for her first TV interview, Sarah Palin`s campaign stylist, Lisa Kline. Welcome, Lisa...
LISA KLINE, SARAH PALIN`S CAMPAIGN STYLIST: Thank you.
BEHAR: ... to the show.
KLINE: Hi.
BEHAR: So Sarah was the first politician that you styled, right?
KLINE: Yes.
BEHAR: Normally you style, what, other CEOs?
KLINE: CEOs, corporate women, newscasters, anchors at, you know, various stations here in New York.
BEHAR: Was -- did it excite you when you got the assignment?
KLINE: Yes. It did excite me. I thought it would be a very challenging and new area.
BEHAR: And was she excited when you met her? I mean, to be styled by a professional stylist? Which I think was unusual for her being from Alaska, a hockey mom and all that.
KLINE: Honestly I don`t think she was particularly excited. I think she felt like it was part of the convention, part of the campaign, part of her job; part of her new responsibility to look a certain way.
BEHAR: It`s funny because when you read her book, she only really devotes a little bit of the book to this clothing thing, about a page and a half. And she sort of downplays it, you know? "I really didn`t care that much about it."
KLINE: Right.
BEHAR: Levi Johnston, her pseudo son-in-law, we don`t know what to call him...
KLINE: Right.
BEHAR: The baby daddy...
KLINE: Right.
BEHAR: He said in a "Vanity Fair" article, something like he wrote, Sarah was all smiles and giggles when she was in Minneapolis. She loved the lifestyle and the fact that she impressed everybody. "Isn`t this nice, all this," she said? She would say she got a lot of clothes. She`d never worn anything so expensive.
That she really was excited about getting all that stuff and having this new lifestyle.
KLINE: I would have to disagree with that. I, again, she -- I think she viewed it as part of the job.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLINE: And, like every woman she wanted to look nice and when it came time to, you know, review the clothing, she, you know, said what she liked or she didn`t like and I don`t think that she was overly excited or, you know...
BEHAR: Or just casual about it?
KLINE: Right.
BEHAR: All right. Well, that`s interesting. Nobody really knows the truth except people who were there and you were there. So did they give you a budget?
KLINE: Originally, yes. There was a budget given to purchase outfits for the convention, for the RNC. That would be for the three events that were there.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLINE: The first was meeting the McCain plane on the tarmac. The second was...
BEHAR: She needed an outfit to meet the plane -- photo op, yes.
KLINE: Yes. And the second was the night of her speech and the third was the night of McCain`s speech.
BEHAR: So did they say to you, you know, Lisa, this is the budget, don`t spend more than a certain amount of money? Or did they not tell you anything about the money?
KLINE: Well, they said to, you know, try and stay within $25,000 to $30,000 and to also buy some outfits for the campaign trail.
BEHAR: So how did it get to be $150,000 then at the end of the day?
KLINE: Well, the $150,000 all did not fall under my domain.
BEHAR: Oh.
KLINE: Ok. It was -- there was some spending done before I arrived in Minneapolis and I believe there were some spending done after Minneapolis.
BEHAR: I see. Then you also had to buy some clothes for the kids and for Todd, right?
KLINE: Well, when we arrived they realized that the family didn`t have the proper clothing to stand before the whole world. They came with their everyday life clothes and I think they just wanted to have everybody look a certain way.
BEHAR: See, that`s interesting, that point, because here`s a woman who she goes around saying the real America and I`m just a home-spun girl from Alaska. They probably pushed her into looking the way that she wouldn`t normally look. And it ruined it for her and for McCain.
I think that was a tipping point in the campaign because what the -- beautiful clothes that you picked out for her said to the world, "I am not a good little home-spun girl from Alaska" or I`m part of the, you know, the elitists who dress in designer clothes and it was actually a negative for her. Do you agree with that?
KLINE: Well, yes and no. Because I feel, honestly, Joy, if they would have worn their clothes from home, I feel like they would have been as criticized.
BEHAR: Yes, but it would have been criticism in a different way. It would have been, well, this is a good old girl from Alaska and she looks the way she always looks. Now they`re looking at her and thinking -- I mean, it went against her image as a governor from Alaska or a person who had a bunch of kids and who, you know, shot moose and did all those things that they said she did.
And now suddenly she looks like --- Cindy McCain would have been right in her element. Because everybody knew Cindy McCain was rich and wore designer clothes, you know?
KLINE: Right. But these conventions are almost the Red Carpet of politics.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLINE: And I feel like she had to look a certain way.
BEHAR: Yes. She did. They wanted her to look a certain way and I think it backfired. That`s all.
Let me ask you, before we go to the next segment, what about the glasses? Did anybody to say to her, you know, you don`t need the glasses? What`s with the glasses?
KLINE: There were a few people that I think tried to say maybe you don`t need the glasses, but she liked them.
BEHAR: She liked them.
KLINE: They were her and she really wanted to keep them.
BEHAR: All right. Stay right there.
More with the woman who dressed Sarah Palin when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: I think that was the most ridiculous part of the campaign was the whole clothes story. They weren`t my clothes. They aren`t my clothes. I don`t have the clothes. I don`t think it was $150,000 worth of clothes anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Sarah Palin talking about Wardrobe Gate, the controversy that erupted after the world learned that her new clothes cost $150,000. Now, here`s the thing. Do you think that they -- she sort of acts as if they were treated unfairly because of this clothes gate, wardrobe gate. Do you think she was treated unfairly?
KLINE: Yes, I do.
BEHAR: You do?
KLINE: I really feel that if she were a man this would never -- this controversy would never have surrounded a man. I feel like all the male politicians, their suits cost at least $3,000.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLINE: And unfortunately -- sorry.
It`s kind of like -- what`s his name? Edwards. John Edwards. He was sort of caught in the looks thing, too. He was combing his hair and he sort of appeared to be narcissistic. I think his problem was that he was the man of the people. That he was interested in the poor and not interested in all of this frilly-frilly and then he showed himself to be rather narcissistic disorder.
Her problem was similar. She was a real -- as I said before, a good old gal and now she`s in Valentino clothing. That was really the problem.
KLINE: Well, I suppose, but I really feel that the problem is that she was a woman.
BEHAR: Ok. That`s fair enough. That`s fair enough.
Now, in her book she says that you also did Katie Couric`s clothing. Is that true?
KLINE: That is not true. I`ve never met Katie Couric.
BEHAR: So that`s not -- why would she say that then?
KLINE: You know, I don`t know. It`s still a mystery to me.
BEHAR: Where did she come up with that?
And the other thing is -- how about your salary? They say -- you made $54,900 for the job. So people -- straighten that out for people so they know where that`s coming from.
KLINE: Sure. That amount of money was actually paid to my company, and that covered an assistant and it also covered lot of expenses; so that all did not go to me. It`s also very hard to put a price on a job that`s over a holiday weekend and we were up for three straight days and that was basically...
BEHAR: A lot of hours.
KLINE: A lot of hours.
BEHAR: You went to Neimann Marcus.
Do you think you could have dressed her as easily for, let`s say, $50,000?
KLINE: Oh, yes, definitely. Had we had more time, as a stylist you have many, many resources; showrooms, discounts at various stores.
BEHAR: Right.
KLINE: People who are willing to loan clothing.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s right. But in this case you couldn`t do any of that because -- it was a tight squeeze. But a $25,000 -- a $2,500 jacket, not a $25,000, right? How much was that Valentino jacket?
KLINE: $2,500.
BEHAR: $2,500 jacket. I thought it was a beautiful jacket but probably you could have gotten it for -- at "Lowman`s" let`s say.
KLINE: Yes.
BEHAR: Target.
KLINE: Target wasn`t open.
BEHAR: Anyway, but was Neimann, or as they call it, needless markup, was Neimann Marcus the only store open at that point that you could go into? Because that is a very over-priced store.
KLINE: Well, we were in Minneapolis and it was about time and geographics. We needed the closest store that could accommodate the entire family. And actually Neimann Marcus was five minutes from the hotel.
BEHAR: Ok. All right.
Thank you for clearing up a few things. I appreciate you coming on my show. I know you didn`t do anybody else`s show. That was sweet.
Thank you.
KLINE: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Adam Lambert`s controversial performance at last night`s AMAs. You must watch this. Did you see it?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: "American Idol" runner up Adam Lambert is in hot water after an outrageous performance at the AMAs last night. That included everything from simulated oral sex to full mouth on mouth action with one of the guys in the band.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. Do you think that a performance like that would create as much outrage if it wasn`t for the fact that Lambert happens to be gay? Back with me now is Emmy award winning actor Bradley Whitford, Nancy Giles, social commentator, plus Albert Lee, deputy news editor of "US Weekly." What do you think?
WHITFORD: I think there`s a lot of outrage because he`s gay. I think this guy is phenomenally talented, actually.
BEHAR: Seriously?
WHITFORD: I seriously do.
BEHAR: You like him.
WHITFORD: I love this guy.
BEHAR: You kind of like him a lot?
WHITFORD: I would almost switch teams, but except I don`t want to. I don`t like the leashes.
(LAUGHTER)
But I love this guy. And, look, it goes to a bigger thing. Why is the definition of obscenity in this culture -- not to suck all the joy and fun out of this show --
BEHAR: Don`t use that word for this particular.
WHITFORD: I`m sorry, but why is our definition of "obscene" sexuality, as opposed to, I don`t know, unnecessary violence, uninsured children, 18,000 people who die every year because they don`t have health care?
BEHAR: Well, because we`re a puritanical society at the end of the day. We were settled by puritans and we continue to be like that.
WHITFORD: Which makes our sex --
ALBERT LEE, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": Adam was saying, you know, it`s a double standard. If I were a woman, you`ve seen countless women come across the stage doing the exact same thing.
BEHAR: Like Madonna. Madonna had an issue like that. But let`s hear what Lambert had to say about the controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM LAMBERT: As an afterthought, I do feel like there`s a bit of a double standard in the entertainment community, on television, on radio. I feel like women performers have been pushing the envelopes sexually for the past 20 years. And all of a sudden a male does it and everybody goes, oh, we can`t show that on TV.
And to me that`s a form of discrimination and it`s a double standard. And that`s too bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. Well, Madonna, we were trying to find the footage. She had somebody`s head underneath her dress.
LEE: But she also had a big cross.
BEHAR: She did.
GILES: When she was wearing the cone bra and masturbating during one of her shows.
BEHAR: She`s a bigger star. Maybe she gets away with it because she`s a big star, and that kid came out of nowhere.
GILES: Our standards have changed. If you remember back in days of Star Trek, it was wild and outrageous to have the Lieutenant Uhura kiss Captain Kirk. They wouldn`t even show that. And so we`re moving the bar along a little bit.
BEHAR: Miscegenation.
GILES: Yes, right, they weren`t trying to make a mulatto baby or anything like that.
BEHAR: Do you think that the right wing, the Christian right in this country will cut him as much slack as they do Carrie Prejean? Carrie Prejean -- maybe they`re not cutting her any slack. Remember her? She`s the one with the eight sex tapes.
LEE: Yes, came and went and made no big deal.
GILES: They wanted her to run for the House of Representatives.
WHITFORD: I think the right capitalizes on a cultural problem which is thinking about other people`s sexuality freaks me out. I was actually doing the same-sex marriage debate. I was talking to somebody on the other side of the debate from me who I believe that homophobia is the last totally accepted discrimination in this country.
BEHAR: No, fat people.
WHITFORD: Fat people?
Fat people, still can be joked. Fat, gay people worse.
WHITFORD: OK. But I think the thought of other people`s sexuality -- this woman said the thought of homosexual sex freaks me out. It freaks me out. But the thought of my mother having sex freaks me out, of you having sex, of anybody having sex. If I`m not having sex with you, your sexuality freaks me out.
BEHAR: You know what, the thought of you having sex turns me on. Go figure.
(LAUGHTER)
Now, how do you like that?
Let`s focus on something really important. Jon and Kate`s marriage officially ended this weekend and their TV show ends tonight. Thank you, Jesus.
(LAUGHTER)
WHITFORD: I think putting -- I think it`s truly -- I`m not joking, emotionally unhealthy for me to be on television. I don`t think it`s a healthy arena.
BEHAR: Why is it emotionally unhealthy for you?
WHITFORD: Just because people know who you are.
BEHAR: You love it.
GILES: Yes, you do. You know you do.
WHITFORD: Listen, I have a --
GILES: You love it. Come on.
LEE: They`re not going to have the reality show, but the truth is you`re going to be able to read about them in every single magazine. They`re not going away.
BEHAR: It`s like Sarah Palin, America`s fascination with these people. What were the psycho dramas that went on a long time? O.J. Simpson.
GILES: Luke and Laura.
BEHAR: That was fake.
LEE: But it was a metaphor for what was going on in race in this country. Jon and Kate is a metaphor for what`s going on inside every household, what`s going on.
GILES: That is sad.
(CROSSTALK)
GILES: I was going to say is how sad we`ve devolved from everybody being really involved in the Watergate scandal, and watching Jon and Kate and their eight kids and him getting a divorce and him giving her flowers. And who cares?
BEHAR: People like a continuing saga. Soap operas used to be very popular. Now they`re using their mojo because I think reality shows are the great soap operas. You can see everything that`s going on in these people`s houses. And they`re happy to show it to you.
GILES: And you can see them crash and burn, which is what everybody really likes.
WHITFORD: Yes, everybody is witnessing the car wreck.
But my confusion about the show is what was the drama? They have eight kids and, wow, the marriage didn`t work out. I mean, wow, they had trouble in their relationship. That`s shocking.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know, did you hear of the Dugars?
WHITFORD: It`s a fine line between having a family --
BEHAR: Wait a second, the Dugars have 18 children.
GILES: Is that a real name?
BEHAR: Dugar -- D-u-g-a-r. They believe in procreating like crazy.
GILES: From the same mother?
BEHAR: The same mother. She`s in her 40s. She`s given birth vaginally to 18 kids.
GILES: When a woman has to go through that, that`s an act of war against her.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, topic three. Oprah announced that after 25 years she`s finally ready to call it quits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: These years with you, our viewers, have enriched my life beyond all measure. And you all have graciously invited me into your living rooms, into your kitchens, and into your lives. And for some of you longtime Oprah viewers, you have literally grown up with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFORD: It`s like she and Glenn Beck were auditioning for the same -- no, I`m sorry. No, we`re not going to insult her. I know she meant it.
GILES: She uses her power for good, not evil.
LEE: She showed that -- the woman with -- her face mauled off. I don`t know about --
WHITFORD: I think Oprah --
BEHAR: It was sweeps. She is an entertainer. She wants to keep her -- how do you think she kept her show on the air all these years?
WHITFORD: She does a lot of really wonderful things and I truly admire her and I would never criticize her.
BEHAR: There`s a "but coming.
WHITFORD: But, here`s the thing. I think she`s destroyed the capacity for happiness in America.
(LAUGHTER)
You watch her show and you think that -- and by the way, she is none of this. There`s a soul mate out there who you should have who you will be with forever and you should rise to your full potential in terms of being a mother and professionally. There`s a lot of charity work you should do. You should be working out. You should have a bone-rattling orgasm every four days.
(LAUGHTER)
And here`s a list of ten books I`ve read that you haven`t. And the show goes off and you think, I have none of that.
BEHAR: Did you see the magazine "Real Simple?" It complicates your life.
(LAUGHTER)
GILES: It`s another magazine. Why do we need that?
BEHAR: I know what you mean.
WHITFORD: But I think she does great stuff.
BEHAR: She does.
GILES: Here`s what kills me. She was literally weeping on the air, but the show doesn`t end until a year and a half from now.
BEHAR: Why does she have to give two years` notice?
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: You can drop your viewers, I mean, those women --
GILES: Her viewers are sucking -- they`re nursing.
BEHAR: She has to wean them from the boobs.
WHITFORD: From the boobs?
BEHAR: That`s what it is. Nobody gives two years` notice.
GILES: And cries like that. I mean, I was getting the nose -- the news. It was being texted to me and everything. You know, "Oprah`s quitting." I thought, what? Like Lou Dobbs, I thought she just quit. And it turns out she`s quitting in a year and a half.
BEHAR: Lou Dobbs really did quit.
GILES: He did, literally.
BEHAR: Before we leave, let`s see the Lou Dobbs face again.
GILES: Yes, when you`re thinking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: What really upsets me is when I have to --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s so good. I love it.
Thank you, everybody, for joining me. You were wonderful, wonderful.
Up next, Martha Stewart goes rogue on Sarah Palin.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTHA STEWART: She`s a very boring to me, very boring, very, to me, kind of a dangerous person. I mean, she`s dangerous.
CYNTHIA MCFADDEN, CO-ANCHOR, "NIGHTLINE": In what way?
STEWART: She speaks, and she`s so confused. And anyone like that in government is a real problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, that was Martha Stewart slamming Sarah Palin on HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT."
My guest Cynthia McFadden spent two days interviewing Martha last week. She is the co-anchor of ABC`s "Nightline" and tonight airs a "Nightline" exclusive with Doug Hampton, the former chief of staff to Nevada Senator John Ensign who became embroiled in a sex scandal with Hampton`s wife.
Cynthia, before we get to ensign, I must discuss Martha with you first of all, all right. When did she become so political, Martha?
MCFADDEN: I don`t know. She does say what she thinks, having spent a couple full days with her. You know, she -- you know, we spent a lot of time talking to people who are hiding behind their publicists. That`s not Martha Stewart. She says what she thinks. She says it as she sees it. It gets her in trouble sometimes.
BEHAR: She`s in trouble lately. It`s not goings to put her in jail like that time.
MCFADDEN: Be nice, Joy.
BEHAR: Did you talk to her about anything political in your interview?
MCFADDEN: No. We were really looking -- it was a company profile. We were looking at where the company is at in this point in time. They`ve lost a lot of money. Analysts say the next eight months are critical to the company`s success. So we were really focusing on that.
BEHAR: That`s interesting that you say that. Martha slammed Rachel Ray last week. Today she apologized. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: I just want to take this opportunity, Emril, just to address some comments that are circulating on the Internet regarding me and Rachel Ray. And just for the record, there are no bad feelings between us nor have there ever been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: First Rachel Ray then Sarah Palin. Do you think I`m next?
(LAUGHTER)
MCFADDEN: Maybe. You know, she was -- that happened, the Rachel Ray smack down happened in the interview with me.
We were talking about perfectionism and Martha Stewart said "I don`t think there`s any such thing as a teacher being too perfect." I said, come on, the domestic arts, there are a lot of ways of doing it. You don`t have to stencil your driveways. Look at Rachel Ray. She drops it on the floor --
BEHAR: Very Julia Child, actually.
MCFADDEN: And she said "What Rachel Ray does isn`t good enough for me." So that`s what started it.
BEHAR: Right. And Rachel was very nice about it.
MCFADDEN: Yes. I sat down -- coincidentally I was sitting down with Rachel Ray about a different story and told her what happened, and she said, listen, she`s right. I`d rather eat her food than mine, too.
BEHAR: I know, she`s sweet. But she`s younger. She should respect her elders.
Martha, the thing about -- the thing about it is that Martha`s show, as you said, is in trouble, right? Her business, rather.
MCFADDEN: Well, it`s a critical time. I mean, "in trouble" is an interesting way to put it. They have lost money so far this year.
BEHAR: Losing money is trouble.
MCFADDEN: That`s not good.
BEHAR: Ask Obama. You know what I mean? That`s trouble. So maybe that`s why she`s starting fighting with people, to keep her name out there.
MCFADDEN: I don`t think it`s that conscious. That`s so much more calculated than I think she is. I think she calls it as she sees it. I think she`s outspoken like you and me.
BEHAR: Well, good for her. I love a big mouthed woman like myself.
(LAUGHTER)
OK. Now, in fact, Rachel Ray, because I`ve been taking her side in all of this because I like Rachel. I think she`s sweet. She sent me flowers over the weekend saying "You have a big mouth and I love that," something like that. So we have to stick together, all our big mouthed women.
MCFADDEN: It`s great there are so many women to talk about, huh?
BEHAR: Exactly, exactly.
OK, there`s a real soap opera surrounding U.S. Senator John Ensign from Nevada these days. A Republican and devout Christian, Ensign has confessed on having an extramarital affair with the wife of his former chief of staff Doug Hampton. Tell me about that story.
MCFADDEN: It`s fascinating because at first when Senator Ensign came forward I think we all just thought it was another one of these tragic sex triangles -- two families, marriages being put in jeopardy, lots of kids involved. These families have been friends for 20 years.
But it turns out we got an exclusive interview with Doug Hampton, which will air tonight. And Doug Hampton alleges that there were crimes committed along the way, that John Ensign in the attempt to cover this up committed crimes.
BEHAR: What kind of crimes?
MCFADDEN: Well, he says that, for example, in order to get him employed in a different line of work -- understand that the man -- Doug Hampton was his chief of staff.
BEHAR: Right.
MCFADDEN: He was having an affair with Doug Hampton`s wife, who also worked for him. So both of them got fired.
BEHAR: The wife and Hampton got fired?
MCFADDEN: Correct. So Doug Hampton alleges that John Ensign said, look, I have an idea for a different way for you to make a living. Lobby. The only problem is you can`t lobby the Senate within a year of having left the Senate. That`s illegal.
BEHAR: I see.
MCFADDEN: So the allegations are that John Ensign violated ethics laws, which, if so, that`s a felony. Five years in prison.
BEHAR: Another Christian right winger getting into a sex scandal, it`s typical. The thing about it, though, is he complained about -- he went after Clinton during the Monica Lewinsky trial, that was ensign, and he slammed Larry Craig`s behavior.
MCFADDEN: He did.
BEHAR: The tap, tap, tapper, that guy.
(LAUGHTER)
MCFADDEN: He also -- he also -- and for those of you who don`t know what that is, look it up on the Internet.
BEHAR: Just Google tap, tap, tap.
MCFADDEN: And Larry Craig.
BEHAR: There you go.
OK. So, you know, I have to congratulate you on "Nightline" before we go any further, because you are beating Conan and Letterman. That`s so interesting. I mean, they were ready to dump you a couple years ago.
MCFADDEN: They were ready to dump us. They had the dump all ready for us. Four years ago when Ted Koppel stepped down, no one had any hope of our survival, including all of us who were working on the show. We had the resumes out. Four years later we`re doing great.
BEHAR: Congratulations.
MCFADDEN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Before we go, let`s talk about Oprah Winfrey. What do you think about her quitting? And the two-year notice she`s giving everybody?
MCFADDEN: She`s giving us a lot of time to get used to the idea.
Listen, she`s been an enormous force. She`s changed everything about the business I think, especially for women. She made things very personal, and it`s OK to talk about, you know, your life as part of your story.
And I think, you know, she`s going to be missed. She`s certainly going to be missed by all those going into all those evening news broadcasts at ABC.
BEHAR: Oh, my god, I know. There`s a lot of problems for ABC now. What about the Diane? Isn`t she the lead-in to Diane`s show, sort of?
MCFADDEN: Through the local news, yes.
BEHAR: Diane Sawyer will be on at 6:30?
MCFADDEN: Isn`t it fabulous, two women anchoring the evening news now?
BEHAR: They`re going to go up against each other.
MCFADDEN: I don`t think they choose who they are going to -- I don`t think they make the decision based on --
BEHAR: That move was dangerous for Katie Couric. I hope it`s not dangerous for Diane.
MCFADDEN: I think Diane is going to knock it out of the ballpark. She`s the hardest working, most thoughtful, enterprising journalist I know.
BEHAR: She is. She`s very good. They`re all good. We want all of them out there.
MCFADDEN: I love the idea, though, that somehow women don`t want to watch other women on television.
BEHAR: That`s not true.
MCFADDEN: That`s not true.
BEHAR: I have a huge female audience.
MCFADDEN: As does I.
BEHAR: As do you. We`ll be right back with more Cynthia McFadden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the co-anchor of ABC`s "Nightline" Cynthia McFadden.
Let`s talk about Hillary Clinton a little. You were just in Moscow with her?
MCFADDEN: I was in Moscow with her, yes. It was a fascinating trip. Hillary is such an ark in American public lives, Hillary Clinton who, you know, was so -- such a hot button, such a point of controversy in so many ways. And now she turns out to be one of the most popular -- at the moment, one of the most popular public figures in American life.
BEHAR: They went from hating her to turning on her to feeling sorry for her, and now everybody admires her.
MCFADDEN: Yes, it`s very interesting. Of course, it`s the rise, the fall, the rise again. It`s all Shakespeare, it`s all high school. But right now she`s in a pretty good spot, I think.
BEHAR: It`s a lesson in a way in stick-to-itiveness and not being pushed around by your critics, not listening to criticism so carefully, going straight ahead.
MCFADDEN: Although, you know, I think she did learn some things from the campaign. I saw a big change. I covered her a lot during the campaign, did eight or nine full half hours of "Nightline" with her. She was very uncomfortable to start out. I think she would say that as well.
BEHAR: She was.
MCFADDEN: Despite all the time she spent in the public eye.
BEHAR: Why, do you think?
MCFADDEN: I think she wasn`t sure who to be. I think she was getting a lot of advice. Sometimes -- you know this happens. When you do a show like this, everybody is telling you who to be and how to be. And you have to cut through it and all and say I can be this. This is who I am. And I think it took a while for her to find her voice.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the truth of the matter is you find out who you are as you get older.
MCFADDEN: You do.
BEHAR: And then you say to other people, no, that`s not me. It`s like when you buy a piece of furniture -- at a certain age you know what you like and know who you are. And at that point ageism kicks in and they say, no, sorry. You`re too old.
(LAUGHTER)
MCFADDEN: One of the things she said to me that I will never forget is I thought I could run not being a woman. I said, what are you talking about? She said, I thought I could run because I had these great ideas and I was this great policy wonk.
And she said I didn`t really think I should or could embrace my femaleness. It took a long time for her to be comfortable saying, no, I`m a woman running for president.
BEHAR: That`s true. But you can imagine why she would think that. Look at Margaret Thatcher. I think she had male genitalia.
(LAUGHTER)
She might have. You know what I`m saying here?
MCFADDEN: No autopsy was performed.
BEHAR: Margaret Thatcher might have been a man. So she looks at someone like her and she says she acts like a guy. She doesn`t act like a woman. Why do I have to be a woman, too?
MCFADDEN: There are so many expectations for women in public life. You were talking about Sarah Palin`s wardrobe. We don`t talk about what Dick Cheney was wearing. He could wear the same suit every day for a month and who would know the difference?
BEHAR: Unless his tail is sticking out in the back, who cares.
(LAUGHTER)
But has she --
MCFADDEN: This should be late night, very late night.
BEHAR: We are at 9:00 and 12:00.
MCFADDEN: Right after "Nightline" goes off.
BEHAR: A lot of people of us at midnight, so we are late night.
MCFADDEN: Watch "Nightline" and come over here to Joy.
BEHAR: I think it`s so great that your show is doing so well thought, because they were going to put "Politically Incorrect" there, put in more men there. And they got you, and you`re kicking butt against guys. It`s fantastic.
MCFADDEN: Thank you so much. And I`m not funny. I have to say I`m profoundly, deeply not funny.
BEHAR: But you`re beautiful.
MCFADDEN: Not on purpose, anyway. Sometimes not so intentionally, but...
BEHAR: Thanks for doing this, Cynthia, I appreciate it. Good luck to you. And don`t forget to watch Cynthia`s report on the Ensign scandal tonight on "Nightline."
Thank you for watching, everybody. Goodnight.
END
