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Nancy Grace
Director Polanski Released to Swiss Ski Chalet; American Beauty on Trial in Italy
Aired December 03, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. After 30 years hiding out in luxury in Europe, a Hollywood superstar finally behind bars. Thirty years ago, he pleads guilty to raping a 13-year-old little girl at the home of movie star Jack Nicholson. That little girl testifies under oath he also forced champagne, quaaludes and anal sodomy on her. She was just 13. After Hollywood stars come out of the woodwork for his release, claiming they`re shocked he was arrested, shame on Hollywood!
Bombshell tonight. Roman Polanski walks free. That`s right, he`s out from behind bars. He is back on his multi-million-dollar Swiss chalet, his exclusive European estate. And reports of an alleged deal to pay off the rape victim $600,000. Merry Christmas, Lady Justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oscar-winning filmmaker Roman Polanski expected to be released on bail Friday as he fights extradition to the United States on a sex charge from the 1970s. Polanski will start house arrest at his luxury chalet in the Swiss Alps if he posts bail of $4.5 million. Right now, he`s at an undisclosed location because of security concerns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a disturbing defense of Roman Polanski, and it`s coming from Hollywood! A look at the list of high-profile people who are defending this superstar director -- Martin Scorsese, Woody Allen, Debra Winger...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is based on a three-decade-old case that is all but dead, except for a minor technicality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence shows that he got a little girl drunk. He gave a little girl drugs. He sodomized a little girl.
SAMANTHA GEIMER, VICTIM: He wanted to take some pictures in the hot tub. I was in there topless. Then he got in the hot tub. That progressed to, you know, eventually, Why don`t you come here and lay down, into a very dark room, and that`s when I really realized, you know, what his intentions were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was 13. He was 43. He gave her champagne and a quaalude. She said no. He still went ahead and had unlawful sexual intercourse with her many different ways.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite that, Polanski continues to receive support from Hollywood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, an all-American girl, a co-ed dubbed the "angel- faced killer," on trial in an Italian courtroom for the twisted and violent murder of her 21-year-old British roommate. We are on a verdict watch. In the last hours, U.S. co-ed turned accused killer Amanda Knox on the witness stand, trying her best to explain away DNA evidence and her incriminating and changing stories to police, claiming she was just confused about the night her roommate was murdered in cold blood. The case heading to an Italian jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) because they were treating me so badly and I didn`t understand why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There could be a verdict as soon as tomorrow in the murder trial of Amanda Knox. She`s the American college student accused in the 2007 murder of her roommate in Italy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meredith Kercher`s lifeless body was found half naked, lying in a pool of blood with a stab wound on her neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police collected a mountain of evidence they say will prove that the victim`s American roommate, Amanda Knox, her former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede, a 21-year-old with origins in the Ivory Coast, strangled and stabbed her to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The devil is in the details. It`s not as clear- cut, innocent, guilty. There are layers and layers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents say they`re confident she`ll be found not guilty, and they say they`re eager to bring her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amanda`s OK. She`s scared, obviously. She`s been in jail for something she didn`t do for two years. But she`s hanging in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both Knox and her ex-boyfriend, whose life also hangs in the balance, made emotional pleas to the jury today. Knox said after spending two years behind bars, she`s sad and frustrated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hurts to hear all those terrible things that people actually believe about someone you care about so much and -- it`s really hard to hear it, but I know deep, deep, deep inside with all my body that she`s innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They simply don`t have any evidence against Amanda. There is nothing. There`s lot of guesses. There`s theories. There`s stories. Nothing physical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This trial is gripping Italy. At its heart is a simple question. Is this woman a cold-blooded killer or a wholesome American girl caught up in a crime she didn`t commit?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A Hollywood superstar pleads guilty -- pleads guilty! -- to the rape of a 13-year-old girl who testifies under oath he forced champagne, quaaludes and anal sex on her. After he pleads guilty, he hides out for years in Europe. Roman Polanski tonight walks free. That`s right, he`s out from behind Swiss bars. He`s back in his multi- million-dollar Swiss chalet on his exclusive European estate. And reports of an alleged deal to pay off the rape victim $600,000. Merry Christmas, Lady Justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Swiss officials say film director Roman Polanski could be placed under house arrest at his luxury Swiss chalet as early as Friday after being granted bail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actor Adrien Brody says Polanski`s absence from Hollywood has affected the industry.
ADRIEN BRODY, ACTOR: Definitely, young actors have lost out in America because they haven`t had an opportunity to work with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1978, Polanski pleaded guilty to committing sexual acts with a 13-year-old girl.
GEIMER: He photographed me topless. He`d seen me topless. I just was thinking, Well, this is very European, it must be all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was supposed to be a photo shoot, but the girl told the grand jury Polanski gave her champagne and a quaalude, then forced her into sex.
GEIMER: I said no. I didn`t fight him off. I was, like, No, no, I don`t want to go in there. No, I don`t want to do this. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Polanski would plead guilty to one charge, unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor. But before sentencing, Polanski fled to France.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swiss police detained the 76-year-old Polanski based on a U.S. arrest warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Switzerland is deciding to whether to extradite him to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jon Baird, reporter with KNX radio joining us from L.A. Jon, he`s out? It was such a breakthrough for victims` rights when this guy was finally brought to justice and arrested in Switzerland and put behind bars, waiting for extradition. Now he`s out. How did that happen? We blinked our eyes, and a Swiss judge let him out.
JON BAIRD, KNX RADIO: Well, basically, he applied for bail and they granted him the bail. Right now, he`s been moved to an undisclosed location, supposedly for his safety. And then tomorrow, he`s going to be moved to his Swiss chalet to wait and see if they extradite him to the U.S. But of course...
GRACE: Wa-wait, wa-wait, wa-wait! Wait, Jon! Liz, put it in full. I want the viewers to see where he is being housed. Well, not necessarily the camera crew. But we`re about to show you Roman Polanski`s Swiss chalet in Gstaad, Switzerland, on an exclusive European estate.
You want to tell me if one of the guys on my staff, somebody I went to high school or college with, was charged with rape, pled guilty to the rape of a 13-year-old girl, feeding her champagne and quaaludes, he would not be under the jail right now?
Jon, you said "they" granted him bail. Who is "they"?
BAIRD: The Swiss authorities apparently have decided to grant him bail, but he had to put up $4.5 million. He`s going to have to wear an electronic device to make sure he doesn`t leave the property.
GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo! Boo-hoo! Why should he leave?
BAIRD: Pardon me?
GRACE: I said boo-hoo.
BAIRD: Exactly.
GRACE: Why should he leave? It`s his home! He`s got everything he wants there.
I want to go to Kim Serafin joining us from "In Touch Weekly. And what about all these Hollywood stars who are crawling out of the woodwork to support him?
KIM SERAFIN, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY," (via telephone): Yes, exactly. I mean, from the very beginning, there were a lot of Hollywood stars. Everyone really came to his rescue and a lot of Hollywood celebrities, famous directors were really defending him.
And again, you go back to the fact that he`s getting out. He`s being released, expected tomorrow. You know, right now, he`s in this undisclosed location. Tomorrow, going to this luxury resort town at his Swiss chalet in a resort that is frequented by celebrities. So this just goes hand in hand. Also the reports coming out that he was getting special treatment in jail. You`re absolutely right, the average person would not get this kind of treatment.
GRACE: I`m sick. I am sick! I have dealt with so many child molestation victims in their adulthood. They have never gotten over it. They`ve gone on to live all right, but they`ve never gotten over it. And this guy is walking free because he`s a Hollywood star. I thought we had a treaty with Switzerland. Maybe I was wrong.
Back to you, Jon Baird with KNX, joining us from L.A. Jon Baird, it`s amazing to me that they put him behind bars, then when the hubbub all died down, they allowed his attorneys to petition the court for bond and they gave it. The $4 million is nothing to him. That`s only $400,000. You only put up a tenth of what your bond is.
BAIRD: Well, I think that they expect that because he has two minor children, because he has electronic bracelets or ankle device, that he`s not going anywhere. They`re going to know. Plus, he gave up his ID papers, so they think it`ll be a little bit tougher to get out of country.
GRACE: Mr. Baird -- Mr. Baird, I realize that your expertise is as a reporter. And you have a tremendous reputation. My expertise is as a criminal prosecutor. It would be nothing for him to leave in the shroud of darkness, take a private plane somewhere else and have his minor children follow him. You know, 30 years ago, Mr. Baird, I bet nobody thought that he would rape a 13-year-old girl in a hot tub, either. But he pled guilty to it. It`s not even a question. He admitted he did it. I want to go to Lavinia -- go ahead, Jon.
BAIRD: I was just going to say, I mean, I`ve heard legal experts say that, basically, they think the sentence would be a lot different today.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Lavinia Masters, rape victim, a sex assault survivor. Lavinia...
LAVINIA MASTERS, RAPE VICTIM: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: ... thoughts?
MASTERS: I am so disappointed in this, Nancy, from the victim`s perspective.
GRACE: I feel like crying.
MASTERS: You and me both.
GRACE: I really do.
MASTERS: You and me both. You think of the pain that we go through as a victim. My crime was over 20 years ago, but it was still a wound that needed healing. And my case wasn`t solved for 20 years, and I still felt that I needed justice because what has happened to me. And now we have this young lady, for whatever reasons, she`s not wanting to prosecute, or what have you. Justice is failing us again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Polanski is a fugitive, a convicted felon who fled to France after he was convicted having unlawful sex with a 13-year- old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: U.S. prosecutors say would it be a miscarriage of justice to drop charges against a man they say drugged and raped a 13-year- old child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The movie director who made "Chinatown," who won an Oscar for "The Pianist," is fighting extradition to the U.S. on a 32- year-old sex charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The year was 1977. Polanski was called before the grand jury to answer charges that he participated in a statutory rape and sodomized a 13-year-old girl after giving her drugs and liquor in the jacuzzi of actor Jack Nicholson`s home in the Hollywood Hills.
ROMAN POLANSKI, DIRECTOR: (INAUDIBLE) I tell you, except that I`m innocent.
GEIMER: He did make me a little uncomfortable. He asked me to change, you know, and I kind of turned my back and stuff, but it felt a little funny, but I thought, you know, Well, that`s what models do and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A warrant was issued in 1978 after Polanski pleaded guilty to committing sexual acts with a 13-year-old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After he was convicted of statutory rape, he fled the country prior to sentencing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actor Adrien Brody says Polanski`s absence from Hollywood has affected the industry.
ADRIEN BRODY, ACTOR: Definitely, young actors have lost out in America because they haven`t had an opportunity to work with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if Hollywood is able to forgive and forget, the law is not, and that is the issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s take a look at what this 13-year-old girl testified to under oath to a grand jury. First of all, "How did you know he had his penis in your vagina?" "I could tell. I could feel it." "What happened after he says, `Do you want me to`? Was it to go through the back?" "Yes."
"What happened then?" "I think he said something like -- right after I said I was not on the pill, he said, `Oh, I won`t come inside of you, then.` And I just went -- and he goes -- then he put me -- wait. He lifted my legs up further. Then he went in through my anus."
I`ve got pages and pages of grand jury testimony that`s even more disturbing than what I`ve just read, what this man, Hollywood superstar Roman Polanski, did to a 13-year-old girl. And before he did it -- which he has pled guilty to unlawful sex intercourse with a child -- that`s statutory rape -- he asked the little girl was she on the pill?
Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Don`t court records show where the victim in this case said she was due $600,000 from Roman Polanski?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. Actually, this victim reached a settlement with Polanski in `93. Finally, some of those documents have been made public, and it is not clear if Polanski ever paid her. Last we heard, 1996, he owed her over $600,000.
GRACE: Liz, let`s play the sound from the rape victim. Now she`s an adult. This is what she had to say after we have uncovered a payment or the reported payment due of $600,000 from Polanski to her.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEIMER: Well, I got over it a long time ago. I mean, it`s been a long time, and I wasn`t prepared to carry a lot of bad feelings with me and further damage my life and continue, you know, the -- just the trauma of all of it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Lavinia Masters, rape victim, a sex assault survivor. I guess nobody offered you $600,000 to drop the case, did they.
MASTERS: No, they did not, unfortunately. It would have been nice, but no, they did not. But I don`t think it would have even paid for the pain and the trauma that my perpetrator did to me on that night when he broke into my home and raped me. So there is no price tag on my sanity or my well-being after such a thing as sexual assault.
GRACE: I got to tell you something, Lavinia. After being a crime victim myself, I don`t think any money...
MASTERS: No.
GRACE: ... could repay me or my family...
MASTERS: No.
GRACE: ... for what we went through.
MASTERS: There`s no price tag, nothing.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Deal Breakers." I`m stunned. One of the only stars that has taken her name off that petition from Hollywood stars is British actress Emma Thompson, who I happen to adore. When she learned of the facts behind this case, she withdrew her support of Roman Polanski. But why are all of these Hollywood stars supporting this behavior?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s the same reason that parents, when their children do something horribly wrong and break the law, that they cannot believe the child committed a crime. These stars do not want to believe that their beloved director could do such a heinous, heinous thing.
But they should ask themselves, are they minimizing a rape against a 13-year-old child? And what if that was their 13-year-old child? And he profits off of the United States, but he doesn`t want to live by the laws of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEIMER: I met him to do a photo shoot. He asked to photograph me for a French magazine as a French actress. I wanted to be an actress, you know (INAUDIBLE) auditioning and do some commercials, so it seemed like a really great, you know, boost. I knew who he was but not -- but I wasn`t really aware of his celebrity. I could tell from all the adults that he was a celebrity.
He did make me a little uncomfortable. He asked me to change, you know, and I kind of turned my back and stuff. But it felt a little funny, but I thought, you know, Well, that`s what models do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEIMER: It got late towards the evening, and then he wanted to take some pictures in the hot tub -- you know, a real pretty looking hot tub outside. And I was in there up to here, but topless, but covered up. You know, I assumed if something was showing, it would be cropped out and it would be appropriate because this was going to be for a magazine, and you know, it must be the way things are done. But then he got in the hot tub. That`s when I realized that something was wrong. It`s, like, This doesn`t feel right anymore, uh-oh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, family law attorney, victims` rights advocate Gloria Allred out of L.A., Daniel Horowitz, famed defense attorney, San Francisco, Kirby Clements, defense attorney, former prosecutor out of Atlanta.
Gloria Allred, weigh in.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, it`s really interesting. You know, he was charged with forcible rape and sodomy and other crimes, and those -- those charges are still outstanding, as well as the crime to which he pled guilty, which was unlawful sexual intercourse with a child.
Now, by the way, Nancy, if, as and when he is extradited back, it may very well be that he is prosecuted for having fled from justice. He may face even more time than he was worried about in the first place.
GRACE: Well, as he should for being on the lam for 30 years. Horowitz, what are your thoughts?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, first of all, I think Hollywood should be ashamed that they focus on a perpetrator and they`re not concerned about the victim. There should be a petition supporting the victim in this. But I think, Nancy, it`s a little bit too late to really try to extract revenge against Roman Polanski. Too many years...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!
HOROWITZ: ... have gone by.
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait!
HOROWITZ: He`s got children. Go ahead.
GRACE: Hold on! Hold on, Daniel Horowitz. I didn`t say anything about revenge. I said justice.
HOROWITZ: I know, but that`s...
GRACE: This is not about revenge. This is about paying a debt to society for what he did.
HOROWITZ: I understand that, Nancy, but it is revenge when you look at...
GRACE: Well, that`s not what you said.
HOROWITZ: ... all the changes -- it`s revenge because so much has gone by. He could be a totally different person now than he was then. We`ve let too much time go by, letting him go on the lam, to say now...
GRACE: Daniel Horowitz...
HOROWITZ: ... that we have to roll the clock back.
GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, it`s not -- justice, Kirby Clements, is not like a bag of bread. It doesn`t go bad if you leave it on the shelf too long. You are cannot pretend a rape and sodomy of a 13-year-old girl didn`t happen...
HOROWITZ: No, we know it did, but...
GRACE: ... just because he`s been on the lam. So much has happened because he ran away!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What, Kirby?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I said we`re not pretending. The victim in this case -- and we talk about victims` rights -- she doesn`t want to go forward. She says she`s put it behind her. Why are you trying...
GRACE: Kirby...
CLEMENTS: ... her back into this, Nancy?
GRACE: Kirby, isn`t it true, when you were a prosecutor, you took cases from trial when victims necessarily didn`t want to take the stand?
CLEMENTS: Not sex crimes cases, Nancy, and I was a sex crimes prosecutor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that he was a very respected person, and I`m a big admirer of his work. But nevertheless I think he should be treated like everyone else, and one should look into all of the allegations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Director Roman Polanski is no longer in jail. But he`s not home either. Swiss authorities have moved him to an undisclosed location for security reasons and personal protection.
The Oscar-winning director will be moved again tomorrow to begin his house arrest at his Alpine Chalet. Polanski cannot leave his house until Switzerland decides whether to extradite him to the U.S. for having sex with a 13-year-old girl back in 1977.
SAMANTHA GEIMER, ROMAN POLANSKI`S 13-YEAR-OLD VICTIM: I told him that I needed to get out of the hot tub. And that he needed to take me home because the steam was giving me an asthma attack.
I`m fainting my asthma attack. Yes, I got out, put the towel on and everything. We walked into the house. I was going, I really don`t feel good. I`m having trouble breathing. I needed to go home, you know, because I`m not feeling well, and then that progressed to, you know, eventually, "why don`t you come in here and lay down," into a very dark room and that`s when I really realized, you know, what his intentions were.
You know I said, no. I didn`t fight him off. I said like, "No, no. I don`t want to go in there. No. I don`t want to do this. No." And then I didn`t know what else to do. We were alone and I didn`t want to -- I didn`t know what would happen if I made a scene.
So I was just scared and I just -- after giving some resistance figured well, I guess I`ll get to go home after this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bombshell tonight, Hollywood superstar Roman Polanski, pled guilty to the rape, the unlawful sexual intercourse with a child, a 13-year-old girl. He went on the lamb. Hid out from lady justice for years in Europe. Finally, he was apprehended and placed behind bars.
Tonight, he walks free. That`s right. He is headed back to his exclusive Swiss chalet on his European estate.
Straight out to Paul Penzone, the director of prevention programs, Childhelp.org. What do you think, Paul? What, if anything, can be done?
PAUL PENZONE, DIRECTOR OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, WWW.CHILDHELP.ORG, FORMER SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: Nancy, I`m caught in my skin here listening to, first, Hollywood isn`t concerned because they didn`t believe that he committed the crime. Hollywood is more concerned with his creative contributions that he could made to them.
That`s what that comes to. And the attorneys to say -- what they`re saying is as far as she`s fine with it, they negotiated a deal, she`s OK, why don`t we move on, is ridiculous. She was 13. Her trying to defend her actions now and explain them justifiably what occurred it is a shame that we haven`t to listen to it.
And listen, if Polanski wanted to make a contribution, he had a chance to buy low and sell high. He could have a short sentence and be held accountable. He chose to spend the better part of his adult life 30 years away from justice living large and now in the back end of his life.
He`s got to pay high for the stock that he could have bought for low. Too bad for him. Do your time. Justice prevails in the end and he should go to jail.
GRACE: Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins.
Dr. Makary, thank you for being with us. Dr. Makary, in the grand jury testimony, it was revealed that he fed her, Roman Polanski fed the 13-year- old girl Quaalude and champagne. What affect would that have on a small child?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, it has a big effect. You know, the Quaaludes are essentially sedatives. We use them in the operating room to put people down so that they don`t feel the pain from an operation. They are associated with some degree of memory loss.
Not as much as other medications that`s why she remembered what happened but these are significant sedatives that in combination with alcohol are going to cause somebody to not sense appropriate boundaries, to not be able to resist what`s inappropriate and to lose their social filter.
GRACE: And what a nerve to ask a 13-year-old girl that you`re about to rape and sodomize, anally sodomize, if she`s on the pill.
You know, I want to go to Ellie Jostad. What can you tell us about our treaty, our extradition treaty in Switzerland?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Nancy, there`s a 1990 accord between our two countries that does allow for the arrest and extradition of fugitives from American justice.
Now it`s just come to light that the American authorities were actually watching Polanski, shortly before his arrest. He was in Austria. They got a tip from the Swiss officials that he was traveling to Switzerland on a given date and time. They waited until he got there because they thought there would be a better chance of arresting an extradition about their in Switzerland.
GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Daniel Horowitz, Kirby Clements. Why in this particular case, Gloria Allred, is Switzerland choosing not honor the accord with the U.S.?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, at this point, he`s fighting extradition. So we`re going to have to wait to see what happens. And it`s also interesting, Nancy, that next week right here in Los Angeles, the Court of Appeals is going to hear arguments on his conviction and whether he can even challenge his conviction since he fled from justice. So we`re going to see legal wars on two different fronts.
GRACE: I don`t know about you, Kirby Clements, but as I recall, you did the same as I when you took a guilty plea on a felon. I swore him in. I put the bible right under their nose and made them swear under oath to everything they said and I would go through the facts of the case and make them admit to the facts and then plead guilty.
So how can he appeal a guilty plea?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well you know, I think, if you can -- there are several basis to appeal a guilty plea. You can appeal the legal advice that you received underneath it.
GRACE: Oh please!
CLEMENTS: You`re not challenging the facts of the case. You`re challenging the process by which you entered that plea or some impropriety thereafter or maybe a breach of the plea agreement. But it`s not -- you`re not going to back and say, you know what, I change my mind. I really didn`t do it. You`re going in and attacking some legal impediment of the case.
GRACE: To Daniel Horowitz. Daniel, can you can actually look at me and our audience tonight and tell them that Roman Polanski is not a flight risk? He`s got buckets of money, millions of dollars of money, he`s in Switzerland, for Pete`s sake. They`re going to let him do anything he wants to. You want to tell me he`s not a flight risk?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s not a flight risk and I will tell you why.
GRACE: Put him back up. Didn`t he already flee one time?
HOROWITZ: Yes.
GRACE: From the U.S.?
HOROWITZ: Yes.
GRACE: Then how you can say that? How you can hope to maintain any credibility and say that?
HOROWITZ: Here`s why, Nancy. He would be fleeing not from the United States, because people like to take pokes at the U.S. in Europe.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t care about that.
HOROWITZ: This came from a European authority, from the Swiss, and the other European countries will join in and help the Swiss to maintain their honor. Where is he going to go? Belize?
GRACE: Maintain their honor?
HOROWITZ: I don`t think so.
GRACE: They`re letting.
HOROWITZ: That`s how they`re going to look at it.
GRACE: . a convicted child rapist shack up at his Swiss chalet?
HOROWITZ: Different morals there.
GRACE: In contradiction to the accord they have with the U.S.?
HOROWITZ: Well, that`s wrong, Nancy. You`re wrong.
GRACE: You think Polanski cares about what the Swiss think?
HOROWITZ: You`re wrong -- no, the other European countries do. They`re not going to let the Swiss be embarrassed by having him flee Switzerland and holed up in another European country.
GRACE: OK. So hold on. Dr. Bethany Marshall, you think that Polanski`s worried that Swiss are going to be embarrassed? Did you hear that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think past behavior is a predictor of future behavior. And this guy has this enormous intellect and creativity and yet he`s organized his whole life around the avoidance of responsibility. So what`s to say he`s going to step up to the plate and take responsibility now?
Look what happened to Michael Jackson when he went to court. He got disheveled, he fell apart. That`s what happens when these creative geniuses are asked to take responsibility. They do not want to take it.
GRACE: And Lavinia Masters, what does this say to all of the rape victims and child molestation victims that see what happened today?
LAVINIA MASTERS, RAPE VICTIM, SEXUAL ASSAULT SURVIVOR: It`s heart- wrenching, Nancy. I know the victim, first of all, had to go through a moment of shame because that`s what happens as victims. We go through this false shame that we carry and now all of this comes back up that should had been dealt with a long time ago. It doesn`t say anything positive for the victim or the justice system at this point.
GRACE: You know, our country was founded on principles written out in the U.S. Constitution. And in that constitution there is no such thing as rich man`s justice. And today I`m afraid our constitution has been made a mockery.
Everyone, as we go to break, I want to show you our family album. Here are the twins in their stroller. This is some early shots. And when I took them to the park in New York. Also, this is just this afternoon. Thank you, Chick-Fil-A for letting us run around your place. This is the first time they ever had ice cream in a cone, and I wanted you to see it.
We had so much fun and they did not drag us out of their jungle gym. Yes, they -- well, they had some of the ice cream with their hands. And also -- hi, Lucy.
Quickly, photos from Arizona friends, Alyssa and Elijah. Elijah named after his dad who died a year ago. Elijah and his mommy love our show. And Massachusetts friends, Aaron, Pat and Emily. When they get home from work, the first thing they do is drop their bags and make sure their baby girl is sleeping soundly.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There could be a verdict in the Amanda Knox murder trial as early as tomorrow. She, of course, is the American college student accused in the 2007 murder of her roommate in Italy.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s a crime story with characters that could have been plotted from a best-selling murder mystery.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Amanda Knox is accused along with her former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in November 2007. They were friends and shared the house where Meredith`s body was found half naked with her throat cut.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police suggested Kercher had been killed during a drug-fueled sex game she resisted.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Amanda Knox says the police are using statements that she made against her will.
AMANDA KNOX, SUSPECT IN THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER: They called me a stupid liar and they said that I was trying to protect someone. So I was there and they told me that I was trying to protect someone but I wasn`t trying to protect anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her parents say they`re confident she`ll be found not guilty and they say they`re eager to bring her home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Both Knox and her ex-boyfriend who`s life also hangs in the balance made emotional pleas to the jury today. Knox said after spending two years behind bars, she`s said and frustrated, and that, quote, "My lawyers, my family and my friends save my life every day."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can see her face and her reaction and I know when she was leaving there, her face was really upset. She doesn`t like hearing those kinds of things about herself because she knows it`s not true and it makes her really sad that people actually think that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Andrea Vogt. She is joining us from Peruga, Italy.
Andrea, thank you for being with us. Tell me as succinctly as possible what is the state`s evidence against the American girl?
ANDREA VOGT, FREELANCE JOURNALIST, SEATTLEPI.COM, IN COURT TODAY: Hi, Nancy, thank you. It`s an honor to be on your show. Here in Peruga, there`s a lot of anticipation as we wait for a verdict. The evidence against Amanda Knox has been summed up by the prosecution.
There are 200 pieces of forensic evidence. Mainly the alleged murder weapon, which is a knife, which is hotly-contested, the DNA of Meredith Kercher`s supposedly on the blade. A trace of that DNA on the blade. Amanda Knox`s DNA on the handle. Then there`s a bra clasp that belonged to the victim with Raffaele Sollecito`s DNA on that bra clasp. Also a hotly- contested piece of evidence.
There are -- there`s the testimony of more than a hundred witnesses. And the -- of course, the statements that Amanda Knox made and wrote herself and her own testimony in this case. So a lot of little pieces of evidence that the prosecution is trying to sort of put together into a bigger puzzle, a bigger framework. Really the devil is in the details in this case.
GRACE: I want to talk quickly, Andrea, about what she told police. What were her statements to police?
VOGT: Well, you know, she went into the police station voluntarily around 11:00 p.m. and was there. And the police started to ask some questions. They started to have this sort of questioning session. At which case, Amanda Knox claims that police started to interrogate her rather harshly.
She broke down at this certain point. She claims they hit her on the back of the head. Of course don`t have an audio or a video of this interrogation. So it`s the -- you know, five police officers and two interpreters` words versus hers.
GRACE: OK, what I`m getting at is what did she say about what happened that night? What`s her story?
VOGT: Well, she said that she broke down at some point and said -- and blamed that Patrick Lumumba, the Congolese pub owner, said she was there, said you know, he did it, he did it. And of course later this turned out to be a false accusation, which she said she made under duress.
GRACE: So it`s my understanding -- to you Rupa Mikkilineni -- that she pointed a finger at this nightclub owner. He later came up with an airtight alibi so police are wondering why did she lie about what happened that night? And then stated to police that she heard screams of her roommate in the next room but then later said it was a dream.
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. She basically came into the police station, was questioned. She verbally admitted that she`d been there the night of the murder in the apartment. Points the finger at her employer/boss/bar tender/owner of the bar and then two days later -- a few days later, reneges, and said that she did not say those statements.
GRACE: OK, joining us, the spokesperson, the attorney for Friends of Amanda Knox, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Anne Bremner.
Anne, do you have an explanation as to why she told police she heard the girl screaming in the next room, but then said it was all part of a dreamlike state and that she couldn`t understand Italian, which she spoke fluent Italian on the stand in front of the jury.
ANNE BREMNER, SPOKESPERSON, ATTORNEY FOR "THE FRIENDS OF AMANDA KNOX": Sure, because it`s not true. She didn`t speak Italian at the time, Nancy. She does now. She`s been in prison two years in Italy, she`s fluent. She know basically to say where is the train station in Italian. She`d just got there from Seattle.
But the other thing is, she never said she was there. They said imagine if you were there what would have happened and she said if I were there I would have covered my ears. That`s what she said. They said give us, you know -- hypothetically, you know, what would have happened.
Forty hours of interrogation, she was coerced during the time of the questioning. And, you know, Nancy, here in the U.S., you know we take for granted, we have Miranda. You can`t coerce statements. You can`t use physical force.
And you can`t keep somebody for hours and hours and hours and finally with respect to Patrick, they said there was a negro hair and they said you know who`s there and they had a text from him, from her to him, saying, you know, see you later. They said, you want to see him later so that`s the whole kit and caboodle.
GRACE: To Janet Huff, the aunt of Amanda Knox. What is your message tonight, Miss Huff?
JANET HUFF, AUNT OF AMANDA KNOX: Oh my gosh. All I can tell you is that the family -- we`re so glad that this is wrapping up but we`re also so frustrated in how media members can take a situation or a story and twist it and just present it as fact when it`s actually a complete bunch of lies. So we`re just -- we`re just really ready for this to be done and to bring Amanda home.
GRACE: I want to go back to Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, let`s go through some of the evidence that we know of. First of all, there are claims by the defense of crime scene contamination. There are photos showing investigators that don`t have on gloves. The prosecution responds that the evidence was perfectly handled. Everything was done according to the book.
Then there is the DNA on Kercher`s bra clasp. That is the victim. The prosecution says a bra clasp ripped from the victim`s bra found on the floor of her room has the DNA of Amanda Knox`s boyfriend on it.
The defense says the bra clasp is contaminated because it had been at the scene for some time. Bloody footprints on a bathroom rug, the state says it is the same size as Amanda Knox`s. Defense says no.
The knife. The prosecution says a knife found in Raffaele Sollecito`s house has Amanda Knox`s DNA on the handle, the victim`s on the blade. The defense said the knife doesn`t match the shape and size of the wounds on the victim`s body or an outline on the bed.
There was a bloody shoeprint in Kercher`s room matching the size of Sollecito. The defense said not true. Then there are the statements made by the defendant.
We`ll be right back, and we`ll hear from other side, but a very happy birthday to Georgia friend of the show, Evelyn, a loving mother, grandmother of four, great grandmother of four. She`s is looking forward to a wonderful Christmas with her family.
Happy birthday, Evelyn.
And congratulations to Michigan friend, Timmy Roe MacKenzie (ph). Here she is in a grand prize winning costume as Cindy Lou from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas." Congratulations, MacKenzie.
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GRACE: A formerly all-American girl, Amanda Knox, a coed now on trial in an Italian courtroom for the murder of her 21-year-old British roommate.
Rupa Mikkilineni, it`s heading to an Italian jury. What is the press and Italy say? What is their take on the case about the American girl on trial?
MIKKILINENI: There`s a lot of controversy in this story. It`s really got tongues wagging, Nancy. Everyone in Italy is just -- is watching this with bated breath. And some people are on the side of Amanda Knox and some people think that she`s innocent, some people don`t.
GRACE: To Andrea Vogt. Andrea, you`ve been in the court nearly everyday, call it. Which way do you think it`s going to go?
VOGT: Well, I think the defense has a lot of wind in the sails right now. They`re just coming up a really emotional closing arguments. They did well. The defense I think really got a lot of emotion that came across to the jury. It was convincing. But, you know, but when the jury goes into those deliberation rooms, they`ve got so much.
They`ve got, you know, so many pieces of evidence to go over.
GRACE: Right.
VOGT: So -- you know, so much witness testimony. I wouldn`t want to be on this jury. I mean they`re facing a tough choice. They have the choice of either convicting a 22-year-old and 25-year-old, you know, promising normal young students to jail for life, potentially with some black clouds hanging over it, because there were questions about the investigation.
GRACE: Yes, well.
(CROSSTALK)
VOGT: Or they acquit, and if they do that.
GRACE: I don`t hear very much discussion tonight of the 21-year-old dead victim. Gloria Allred, what about it?
ALLRED: Well, exactly. And who cares about the victim? I think everybody should care about the victim. But I think -- I`ve had a case in Italy involving a murder of a mother who went to get back her child back in Italy and I know something about the Italian justice system, and it`s very, very different from ours.
And the trial has taken place over a lengthy period of time. In Italy sometimes it takes place for a few days and then they don`t.
GRACE: Right.
ALLRED: Then they adjourn until the following month, and so.
GRACE: Right.
ALLRED: You know, it`s going to be very difficult for the jury to examine all of this evidence.
GRACE: Anne Bremner?
ALLRED: . and then reach a decision.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, final thought, quickly?
BREMNER: Well, you know, we are cautiously optimistic, sometimes cautiously pessimistic, but you know, true justice in this care, I think, will prevail, and we`re hoping for acquittal.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class James Coon, 22, Walnut Creek, California, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star. A punter on his high school football team, loved hip-hop, dancing, playing darts.
Went to England representing the U.S. at a World Dart Tournament. Also loved doing wheellies on his Honda motorcycle and his beloved Rottweiler Tyson. Leaves behind parents Jim and Louis, grandparents Jack and Janet, two half sisters.
James Coon, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special thank you to Connecticut friends, Cheryl and Gregory, they sent the twins these sweatshirts that say "Future Crime Fighter."
And a special goodnight from George friend of the show, Virginia Gun.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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