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Obama Visits Capitol Hill; UN Climate Summit Set to Begin Amid Controversy; On the Ground: Improvements in Afghanistan?; The Afghanistan Decision: Public Reaction, Political Impact; Covering the White House: An Insider's View; Waiting for Economic Recovery

Aired December 06, 2009 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, what the president said to Senate Democrats, dropping by Capitol Hill for a Sunday pep talk on health care reform. Did members of his own party buy it? Apparently not all of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BEN NELSON (D), NEBRASKA: There are a number of other concerns that I've expressed over quite a period of time that are also deal breakers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that's just the Democrats. Wait until you hear what Republicans are saying.

Weather wreaking havoc on parts of the country. A blizzard may be heading your way. Stay tuned.

We'll show you why thousands of people are fed up and rallied today in Mexico.

And entertainment legends descend on the White House from De Niro to "The Boss," getting top honors from the commander-in-chief.

Good evening, everyone.

The latest hurdle facing President Obama on his signature issue now rests with his own party. He made a rare Sunday visit to Capitol Hill where he assured Senate Democrats that he'll do anything he can to help them pass their health care reform bill.

Democrats are still divided over abortion and a proposed government-run insurance plan. They need every vote and a handful of party moderates still aren't on board with this.

Well, Nebraska Democratic Senator Ben Nelson is one of those moderates, and he will be at the center of a debate tomorrow at the Capitol. Nelson plans to introduce an amendment designed to block abortion coverage by any insurance plan that's purchased with federal subsidies. That idea won't fly with most Democratic senators, but the party needs every member to fall in line if health care reform is going to pass.

Well, tonight, I have the opportunity to ask Nelson if he will vote for the final bill if it does not contain his amendment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: This is one of the things that has to be handled in this legislation if I'm going to be supportive of it. But there's also the public option. There are taxes that are -- that are questionable as far as I'm concerned. There's the class act. And I'm also worried about the so-called Medicare cut, so...

LEMON: I just wanted to make sure, Senator Nelson, that this was a deal breaker for you and you're saying that it definitely is?

NELSON: Yes. It is a deal breaker. If we don't get this type of language in the bill, but I can say also that even if we get this language in the bill, there are a number of other concerns that I've expressed over quite a period of time that are also deal breakers.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about the president's visit today. Did it help sway you at all? What did he say to you?

NELSON: Well, it was a pep talk. I'm glad he described it as that. I know that those who are already feeling -- who are already decided to vote for this legislation, and there are some, this sort of pumps them up.

I think it's a -- it's a message of, here's why you need to do it and I'm glad you're doing it and you need to move forward.

From my standpoint, my primary concern is making sure that whatever we do is good first for Nebraskans and our country and then finally for party. So, I look at it perhaps just a bit differently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Democrat Ben Nelson on CNN earlier this evening.

Republicans are standing firm in the opposition to the Senate bill. Arizona's John McCain says the Democrats' legislation will help drug companies and other medical providers, but it won't help the American people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: When we talk about these deals, who is it that's left out of the deals? The American people. They're the ones that are left out.

Good example, the deal that Pharma cut, which was reported on the front page of several newspapers around America, that in return for their support of the legislation, the administration would oppose drug re-importation from Canada, which drug prescription prices could be as much as 50 percent lower, and would oppose competition from Medicare recipients by the pharmaceutical companies. So who got damaged by that deal? Certainly not the pharmaceutical people, but the American people did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell criticized President Obama's decision to exclude Republicans from today's meeting. He says that shows how partisan this process has become.

We want to talk about all of this now with our regulars. Mark Preston is CNN's political editor and April Ryan is a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks.

Mark, we'll start with you. The public option and you heard from Senator Ben Nelson, the abortion language, very important to him, and many Democrats in Congress. So, with all of this, are you surprised the president showed up at the Capitol Hill today?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: No, I'm not surprised at all, Don. He was clearly sending a message. I mean, the fact is, is that the president really was criticized early on in the process for not being as involved in the process.

Well, look, now we're really reaching the end of the rope, so to speak. It's only two weeks before Christmas. Democrats want to try to get this bill out of the Senate by that time. The president had to make this trip.

And I would expect, Don, over the next couple weeks, expect him to take a more visible role, expect this political operation to play a more visible role in really trying to pressure Democrats, those wavering Democrats, to support this bill.

LEMON: And April, the president, you know, he came into office saying he wanted Republican support, bipartisan support he said. Now, he's had to trudge up to the Senate today to try to rally members of his own party. What's going on? What happened?

APRIL RYAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKKS: Well, again, the sticking points as you said, public option and the abortion issue.

But quite simply, Don, if indeed -- we'll find out if this worked -- if indeed by the Christmas break that the Senate can work something out and the president can get what he wants for a Christmas present, something maybe on his desk. But we'll see what happens. And the proof is in the pudding.

LEMON: He and Harry Reid say they want this by Christmas. So, it might be a Christmas present for both of them, they're hoping for.

Stick around, Mark and April, because much, much more to come. And we're going to talk about climate change and Afghanistan, the president with a lot on his plate. We'll talk with you guys in just a bit. In Iran, officials are trying to stifle possible anti-government protests today. It's Students Day in Iran, marking anniversary of the 1953 killing of three university students by the former Shah's security forces. This is an anti-government protest. It was last month that you see there.

The government is warning Student Day participants not to demonstrate against the government and even telling foreign media not to venture outside to cover any events.

It is a great climate debate. At this hour, world leaders are gathering in Copenhagen to try to hash out a new deal regulating greenhouse gases. What does it mean to you? We'll take you closer -- a closer look at what is on the table here.

And later, we often only hear about the negative effects of the war in Afghanistan, but there is a great deal of progress and good work being done there. Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr takes us behind the lines in Kabul.

And blizzard conditions. Jacqui Jeras, update us.

JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: An amazing storm is on the way, Don, that will literally touch nearly every corner of the country. It could cripple travel and cause major power outages, not to mention feet of snow. We'll spill it all up for you, coming up.

LEMON: Jacqui, see you in a little bit.

And of course, we want your feedback. Here's how you do it -- on your screen.

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LEMON: We have some nasty weather to tell you about. We're talking possible flooding and even some blizzard conditions across the country.

Jacqui Jeras, update us, please.

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LEMON: All right. See you in just a little bit, Jacqui. Thank you.

The climate debate, it is on. What to do about greenhouse gases being discussed by world leaders in Copenhagen and some recently uncovered e-mails threatening to throw a monkey wrench in all of it.

What does it mean to you? We'll spell it out.

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LEMON: This is an issue that is bringing more than 100 world leaders and 15,000 people to Denmark for a two-week summit starting tomorrow. It's global warming. There is wide agreement in many quarters on the issue, but it remains fiercely controversial in others. Why does it matter?

Well, for starters, scientists say a warmer earth has dangerous consequences -- storms, droughts and rising sea levels. They support cuts in greenhouse gases to reduce and even reverse the impact of global warming.

But critics say that's foolish. Global warming, if it is happening, they say, is being exaggerated for political purposes. It's this sometimes bitter debate that awaits President Obama when he heads to Copenhagen for the UN Climate Summit on December 18th.

Well, just days before the summit kicks off, e-mails hacked from a computer server at a prestigious university are still hogging the spotlight. Those e-mails include discussions of climate data, references to a statistical trick and negative comments about global warming critics.

Researchers insist the e-mails don't refute the overall evidence of global warming but they acknowledge that the content of the e-mails is embarrassing.

On John Roberts went to the source to find out what's really going on.

John?

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, with the Copenhagen Climate Summit under way, one of the big questions is, what kind of impact of what's being called climate-gate have on the proceedings there?

Certainly, skeptics are trying to use these e-mails from the Climatic Research Unit's director Phil Jones as a way to cast doubt on the entire science of global warming. Jones has stepped down as director, pending an investigation into those e-mails.

So I put the question of what impact this might have to Dr. Peter Liss, who is the acting director of the CRU, in an exclusive interview with him today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER LISS, ACTING DIR. CLIMATE RESEARCH UNIT: I don't think it should influence things at all. Of course, I mean, I'm not a politician, but I can sort of see that it might have some impact. I hope it's a small or insignificant.

But we've already seen and people saying, well, this knocks the bottom out of the climate argument. I mean, I don't think that's true at all, but people will say that because it suits them to say that. They have a particular commercial or other interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Scientists who support global warming believe that in the end, the science will stand up to scrutiny. That there is just too much other evidence out there besides the data collected by the Climate Research Unit to prove that global warming is in fact real.

No question, though, that this has really been a credibility hit for both the CRU and the University of East Anglia, which counts itself as one of the premier institutions the world over when it comes to environmental sciences.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISS: So in false-truth (ph) concern, clearly, it's pretty upsetting to get that publicity, much of which is negative, and I think wrongly negative. But that's how it is. And so, of course, it's difficult. It's upsetting for some people, particularly those whose data -- whose workup of the data is being questioned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Officials at the University of East Anglia believe when their independent review is completed, Professor Phil Jones will be cleared of any wrongdoing or attempt to manipulate the data, but that won't be until the spring, long after the Copenhagen summit has been completed -- Don.

LEMON: John, thank you very much.

One thing we do know, the climate conference will tackle the e- mail controversy head-on when it convenes tomorrow, and our Phil Black is in Copenhagen.

Phil?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, here in Copenhagen, just hours before the climate change conference opens, United Nations officials admit that climate-gate is already being discussed by delegates here. The UN's Climate Change chief, Yvo De Boer, says the issue of those e-mails from the University of East Anglia will be addressed directly in speeches during the opening ceremony.

I asked Yvo De Boer what he makes of the allegations and he said he believes there is a positive side to this scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YVO DE BOER, UNFCCC EXECUTIVE SECRETARY: I actually think it's very good that what has happened is being critically addressed in the media, because this process has to be based on solid science, and if the quality and the integrity of the science is being called into question, then that needs to be examined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: Don, many climate scientists believe those e-mails were deliberately hacked and leaked to try to destabilize the negotiations here and they say those e-mails do nothing to discredit the work of thousands of climate scientists around the world, independent scientists whose work draws similar conclusions. Some climate change skeptics are also traveling to this city to try and make their case, but they shouldn't expect a friendly reception, because this conference is based on the scientific theory, accepted by a broad consensus, that the warming of the climate system is unequivocal -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Phil, thank you very much.

Let's bring back Mark Preston, he's CNN's political editor, April Ryan, the White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks.

April, start with you this time. Why the schedule change for the president?

RYAN: Well, according to administration sources, Don, they're saying that world leaders specifically asked the president to come at the end. They say he would be more effective. And many of those world leaders are coming at the end of the summit. Now, remember, the president wasn't originally slated to go. It was going to be Secretary Clinton.

But this president has got the support of former Vice President Al Gore as well as Senator Joe Lieberman, Senator John Kerry to go. And on the table, the issue of emissions reduction. They're trying to focus that on China, India and Brazil as well as here at home.

LEMON: OK. Mark, so, you know, these e-mails -- these e-mails that have surfaced, and you heard some of the people in the report there from John Roberts and also from Phil Black saying that it's embarrassing. So, they've surfaced. What impact, if at all, will it have on the summit and the president's role in Copenhagen?

PRESTON: Well, I think, as we heard from the reports said, it already has had an impact. There's already been discussion about it and it's certainly giving ammunition to the critics of global warming.

What it hasn't done, though, is really changed where the administration is on this issue. I mean, the fact is, what we heard Robert Gibbs just say last week, that climate change is real, and the scientists and U.S. government believe it's real. And the fact that the president has changed his schedule and is going to go on the back end shows that the White House is really committed, you know, to this effort.

However, we should note Congress yet has to address the whole idea of climate change. So, while the president is going over there, there's still needs work that needs to be done back here in the U.S.

LEMON: All right. Mark and Lynn, thank you -- Mark and April, thank you very much.

President Obama's new policy in Afghanistan, of course, also getting a lot of scrutiny right now. April and Mark will re-join us in about 15 minutes to discuss the so-called surge and that July 2011 date that the president mentioned. A lot of you are talking about this climate change thing. One that I thought -- it just came in -- that was interesting, I asked if these uncovered e-mails changed your mind. They said, "No, the uncovered e-mails, computer program, etc, don't change my mind, but only because I always thought the whole thing was a hoax."

A lot of people are saying, "It's not going to change our mind because the glaciers and the icecaps are melting, and that's a proof."

So thank you. Twitter, Facebook, Myspace or iReport.com. Appreciate the feedback. We will certainly get it on for you.

Over the next two weeks, CNN will be all over the Copenhagen climate summit as world leaders arrive to discuss plans to address global warming.

Why it matters and what it means to you. Make sure you stay with CNN for the most complete coverage. And be sure to watch tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern when Campbell Brown will take an in-depth look at the e-mail controversy surrounding that summit.

Thousands take to the streets in Juarez. Their cause? Stopping the violence and daily killings attributed to the ongoing drug cartel war.

And an homage to "The Boss" from the boss. A peek at the Kennedy Center Honors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: One thousand people, 1,000 unified voices against rampant violence in Juarez. Marchers made their way towards city hall beneath a massive Mexican flag today just across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas. The Ciudad Juarez is considered the most dangerous city in Mexico and as many as 4,000 people have been killed in Juarez since January of 2008.

In Athens, Greece, today is the one-year anniversary of the fatal shooting of a 15-year-old at the hands of police. And there's rioting in the streets. Some protesters are holed up in a university building throwing rocks and burning garbage at police. More than 230 arrests have been made since the demonstrations began.

Tomorrow has been designated a national day of mourning in Russia for 112 people killed in a nightclub fire. The fire broke out Friday night in the city of Perm. There were an estimated 300 people in the club at the time. Five people, all associated with the club, are facing charges that include violating fire safety regulations. Now, Russian President Medvedev is calling for the harshest punishment possible.

Rebuilding Kabul. Freedom where there was once only violence. Our Barbara Starr takes us behind the lines.

And how are the government's stimulus efforts helping small businesses? We'll talk to the owner of a popular Baltimore restaurant for his take on the economy.

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LEMON: We want to take you to our top stories right now. President Obama spent part of a Sunday -- his Sunday -- on Capitol Hill. He met with Senate Democrats, urging them to overcome their differences and to unite behind the health care reform bill. Party moderates are balking at provisions related to a public insurance option and the use of federal money for abortion coverage. Democrats need all 60 votes from their caucus members if they hope to pass the measure.

On the eve of the Copenhagen Climate Change Summit, the UN's Climate chief says industrialized nations should to dig deeper into their collective pockets to help finance efforts to reduce greenhouse gases and global warming. The two-week environmental conference kicks off tomorrow. President Obama plans to attend the summit with other world leaders on December 18th.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai, perhaps the most direct beneficiary of the latest U.S. military policy, says it will take about five years for his country to provide all of its own security. He also says President Obama's date of July 2011 is simply a target for Afghanistan to begin taking over from the U.S. not an exit date for U.S. forces.

News out of Iraq tonight. Iraqi lawmakers struck a deal to revise the country's election law. But it may delay the upcoming election which is scheduled for next month. The amendments include a count of government representative and more compensational seats for ethnic minorities.

The situation on the ground in Afghanistan is improving in certain areas. CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr traveled to Logar Province, where she couldn't openly walk the streets just one year ago.

Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Don, we're continuing to travel throughout eastern Afghanistan, having a look at the security situation on the ground. Now, we went to Logar Province about 30 miles outside of Kabul, the capital. I was there a year ago and you could not move around on foot. Everything was in -- traveling by armored vehicles with heavily armed troops.

Now, it's a much different situation in this one area at least that we went to. We visited a busy market place with a security detail, but we had no helmets, no vests. We were able to walk around very freely on foot, talk to shopkeepers, see what was going on in the town.

This is an area where a small number of U.S. troops have been stationed to work with the Afghan police, and they've been able to make a difference, at least in this one corner of Afghanistan. They've been able to drive the insurgents out. It's not to say that there aren't a lot of problems then. Eastern Afghanistan is seeing a good deal of violence continuing. There are areas that U.S. troops have not been able to move into yet, we are told, where violence and Taliban influence is very heavy. There's still, in fact, about 3,500 to 4,000 insurgents here in eastern Afghanistan.

When more U.S. troops arrive in the country, a good number of them are going to come to this area. A lot of them are going to be devoted, however, we are told, not to frontline combat but to training those Afghan forces, so they can continue to try and take over the security situation and look after their own needs -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Barbara, thank you very much. I want to tell you that you can see Barbara's the full report on the situation on the ground in Afghanistan tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING" at 6:00 a.m. Eastern and "THE SITUATION ROOM" that begins at 4:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.

With us here again, Mark Preston, CNN political editor, and April Ryan, the White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks.

Mark, President Obama revealed his plan last week at West Point. We heard the speech, much touted speech, sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. What are Americans' response?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: Well, Don, you know, clearly, we waited a long tome to hear this speech, several months, and we finally got some answers -- 30,000 troops over to Afghanistan.

And we have a new CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll out, Don, that shows that Americans, by and large, support the idea of sending these troops to Afghanistan. As you see on the screen, 62 percent favor it, 36 percent oppose it.

You know, Don, this comes as a minority of Americans, 46 percent of Americans only support the war, you know, 51 percent oppose the war in general.

But what this really comes down to, what this shows us, Don, is that Americans believe that the safety of the United States really depends on what happens in Afghanistan. So, that's why we're seeing the support for the troops, the troop surge.

LEMON: April, I want to talk to you about, you know, party lines here. Not a popular decision among Democrats with the president. He's getting pushback on health care. Now, a division among Democrats on the war.

APRIL RYAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKKS: Right. He's having a tough time. Both of these items are tough sells. But on the war in Afghanistan, by the end of the summer, he's going to have close to 40,000 additional troops in Afghanistan. And knowing this, many Americans are saying, look, why do this still as we're not going to have a military win. And that is a big question. And at the same time, you still have out there lingering that issue on the fact that we still have Osama bin Laden on the loose. And it's about protecting the homeland. But still, people are very concerned with the cost of life as well as the financial cost. And also the issue of health care, the financial cost as well.

So, money makes the world go around as well as the issue of lives being lost. People want to make sure that the cost is worth it.

LEMON: Mark, April, we really appreciate your feedback tonight.

And to Mark, hey, have a great rest of your weekend, the hour or so that you have left. So, enjoy your family for a little bit.

April, stick around because -- is all OK? Everything's good?

RYAN: Everything's good. Everything's wonderful.

April is going to join us in a little -- in a few minutes. You know, April has been all over the news for -- she had a little bit of a confrontation with the press secretary. So, she's going to talk to us.

We're going to move it forward about covering the White House, what it's like -- from the gaggle to the corridors, what are the dos and the don'ts, what land mines do you possibly have to avoid there?

April Ryan is going to be out in the open with us, very transparent. Looking forward to that.

Appreciate your comments if you want to weigh in.

And there's our Jacqui Jeras. She's keeping an eye on the blizzard that's bearing down on Colorado and Minnesota, also Iowa -- Jacqui.

JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes. And do you know what it means when we say blizzard? There's actually a specific definition. We'll give it to you and tell you what kind of impact you can expect from the storm from the southwest to the northeast, coming right up.

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LEMON: Want to go now to our Jacqui Jeras.

Hey, Jacqui, a lot of people are e-mailing me and also going to Twitter and Facebook asking me about the weather conditions and they should be concerned, especially about their commutes and about next week.

JERAS: Yes, absolutely. You know, this storm is going to stick with us probably through Thursday. So this is going to be a big deal and this is going to be impacting a whole lot of people.

By the way, I am on Twitter and I'm also on Facebook. So, if you want to follow me there, instead of bugging Don to get through me, you could go ahead and do that.

LEMON: Did you see the tweets that I was answering for you?

JERAS: No, but I heard you screaming saying, what about New York City? Rain. OK, that's my answer.

LEMON: @jacquijerascnn. Spell it for us, Jacqui.

JERAS: J-a-c-q-u-i and it's J-e-r-a-s.

LEMON: CNN, there you go.

JERAS: Yes.

LEMON: You could send it to her. Thank you, Jacqui.

JERAS: You bet.

(WEATHER REPORT)

LEMON: I like that -- megalopolis.

Hey, Jac, it is JacquiJerascnn, right?

JERAS: Yes.

LEMON: Because someone just twitting me saying Jacqui's Twitter name doesn't have CNN in it like yours.

JERAS: No, no, no, it doesn't. You know what? My Twitter name does not.

LEMON: It doesn't?

JERAS: I don't think it does.

LEMON: OK. So, it's JacquiJeras, and then it's on Facebook. It's JacquiJeras, not JacquiJerascnn. There it is, right there.

JERAS: Twitter.com/JacquiJeras.

LEMON: So, send her your weather questions and comments. I think they can do that.

JERAS: And better it Facebook than Twitter, just so you know.

LEMON: Thank you, Jacqui. We'll be watching this weather. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Is the recession over or not? Washington says yes. Yet, our next guests, well, they may beg to differ. For them, it's all about whether small businesses can survive or not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, if you've been paying attention to the news, you've been hearing the officials out of Washington talking about the unemployment rate slowing, all of that. The official word out of Washington these days, it appears that the recession may be over. At least the latest unemployment figures are not getting worse and might even be improving slightly.

Is it real? Is it just a blip? Has it reached Main Street as they say it?

Well, in tonight's "Mastering Your Money," two experts in small businesses, well, they join us with their perspective. Lloyd Chapman is the president and founder of American Small Business League, a trade group that lobbies for small businesses. He is in San Francisco tonight. And in Owings Mills, Maryland, is Riccardo Bosio. He's the owner of Sotto Sopra, an Italian restaurant in Baltimore.

Thanks to both of you. Good to see you.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Bosio. As a small business owner, are you feeling like the recession is slowing, the economy is getting better?

RICCARDO BOSIO, OWNER, SOTTO SOPRA RESTAURANT: I feel like that the recession is definitely not slowing. As a matter of fact, I think it's deepening. There is a big lack of confidence among the consumer and as a restaurant person, I feel it in conversation with the customers and it's been actually getting worse since last October.

LEMON: Explain that. Why do you -- why do you feel like it's getting -- why do you think it's deepening? That was a quote from you.

BOSIO: It's deepening because there is a lack of confidence and the morale is very negative among the people. In order for the economy to rebound, the numbers, the statistics may be rebounding, but the confidence is ultimately what pushes people to spend in a consistent basis.

So, we may have, you know -- you know, a period of good spending, like, you know, now Christmas, and everybody goes out shopping. And then you have three months of really decaying sales. And, you know, as a business owner, that's what we're looking for. We need consistency for us to make plannings of hiring and making capital spending...

LEMON: Before I get to Mr. Chapman I want to ask you this real quickly. Over the holiday season, I've been doing a little shopping and haven't seen a lot of people out at the malls. How is your business doing?

BOSIO: Are you talking to me, Don?

LEMON: Yes. Yes, I am.

BOSIO: Business is doing very good. I mean, it's very strong.

LEMON: So for the holidays, you're seeing an uptick in people coming in, the customers?

BOSIO: I mean, the sales, the percentages of sales are increasing. But the people spend less. I mean, we have more people because there is an urge to spend now, I guess, because they have pushed back, you know, so much.

LEMON: But they're spending less and that's what we heard about from retailers, the same thing, that there were a lot of people out shopping but they were spending less and less.

Lloyd Chapman is president and founder of the American Small Business League. Are you seeing -- are people saying the same thing to you as Mr. Bosio is saying?

LLOYD CHAPMAN, PRES., AMERICAN SMALL BUSINESS LEAGUE: Yes. More small businesses are closing their doors and...

LEMON: Go ahead.

CHAPMAN: Yes. You're seeing more and more small businesses close their doors and unemployment is going up. I don't think it's peaked yet, by the way. I think -- a lot of experts don't think unemployment is going to peak until this summer.

So, when I hear the recession is over, I just think that's ludicrous. It's not over for mainstream America.

LEMON: So, what do you say to the numbers that you hear coming out from the government and from independent groups about the recession lessening and to unemployment slowing, what have you? What do you say to that?

Do you think that they're counting, or do you think that so many people have given up even looking for a job that they're not being counted, Mr. Chapman?

CHAPMAN: Well, you know, I'm not a big fan of government statistics. And I think the government is trying to convince people that the recession's over, and they're not counting, as you said, people that have stopped looking for work and people that are underemployed.

And I think that -- I think unemployment is closer to 20 percent than 10 percent, quite frankly. I also saw a program the other day that said a lot of retired people that have lost so much of their savings because of the recession, they're going to have to go back to work.

So, I just -- I just think it's ridiculous for them to say that the recession is over. Unemployment is going to keep going up.

Look at it this way. According to the latest U.S. Census Bureau data, small business is responsible for over 95 percent of all net new jobs. And so far, of the two stimulus bills, small businesses have received less than 1 percent. And that's one reason we're still seeing unemployment go up. JPMorgan, for example, has gotten more money from the stimulus bill than all 27 million American small businesses combined.

And I don't see anything changing, you know, in the near future with...

LEMON: Let me jump in here because I want to ask Mr. Bosio.

As a small business owner, have you had to lay some people off? I would imagine you -- a lot of folks have. And have you had to dip into your own personal money in order to keep your business afloat?

BOSIO: To your first question, I laid off a couple of executive positions last year, around August, September. And then this year, we froze all the hiring. We didn't hire anybody.

And I agree with your previous guest. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I don't plan on any hiring next year at all, just because, you know, there is so much instability in the market with the government intervention, with taxes. And so far this year, I haven't had to put any of my money in the business.

LEMON: And you haven't hired those workers back, have you?

BOSIO: No.

LEMON: Give me a quick answer, Mr. Chapman, if you can. What do you -- what would you like to see from the government? What's the solution here, if any?

CHAPMAN: I'd like to see the government give small businesses more money from the stimulus. And I think the number one thing they could do is shift federal infrastructure spending to small businesses.

There's a new bill in Congress right now, H.R. 2568 that would redirect $100 billion a year in existing federal infrastructure spending to small businesses. That bill would do more than anything than President Obama has proposed so far.

LEMON: All right. Lloyd Chapman and Riccardo Bosio, thank you so much.

Hey, real quickly, what's the address of your restaurant, so we can get folks to come visit you, Mr. Bosio?

BOSIO: 405 North Charles Street.

LEMON: And? Where is it? Tell people out there.

BOSIO: Baltimore, Maryland. Baltimore.

LEMON: In Baltimore, Maryland, and it's called the Sotto Sopra.

BOSIO: Sotto Sopra.

LEMON: So, hopefully you have a great holiday season and your restaurant does very well. We appreciate it. Thanks to both of you, OK?

BOSIO: Thank you.

LEMON: Still ahead, our April Ryan. She's going to join us with an insider's view on what it's like to cover the White House from the gaggle to the corridors. What are the dos and the don'ts? And she should know. We're back in a moment.

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LEMON: OK. So inside the White House, well, parts of it anyway. If only those walls can talk, but since they can't, we have April Ryan. She's a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks.

April, you know, we know it got a bit heated for you this week, and it does from time to time.

RYAN: Yes.

LEMON: We used to see, you know, then White House correspondent David Gregory get into it with Ari Fleischer, Helen Thomas. I mean, it does happen. It does happen. So, there are interesting exchanges that happen. Not all of them are heated.

So, real quickly, everything OK? We saw the exchange. Let's get this out of the way with you and Secretary Gibbs. Everything is OK, because even after that -- this has been in the news -- you guys have handled business since then and he treated you with respect, I would imagine, and you did the same even just...

RYAN: Yes, yes. I mean, we've moved on. We talked about jobs Friday. I asked him two questions and he answered like he normally does. So, I mean, we've moved on. And then tomorrow is another day and back at the White House and start my day at 5:00 a.m. and talking to sources and getting all the news and then going to the gaggles and the briefings and asking questions.

LEMON: The criticism with the Bush administration was that if you, you know, if you said something or asked a question that they didn't agree with or didn't want asked that you would in some way be -- that you would be black balled or that you may be disciplined a little bit. They wouldn't, you know, take your phone call.

It was the same thing during the Giuliani administration when I lived in New York City. Same thing. Does that happen with this administration and is that just par for the course?

RYAN: I think it's par for the course. I think it happens with all administrations. I've been through three presidential administrations now and I've seen that happened. I mean, it's happened to me. It's happened to many reporters.

And, but at the same time, you have to remember, Don, that it's a conflict and cooperation type of relationship or friendly adversarial, if you will. Both sides need each other, but there's some days when the conflict happens but there are other days when there's cooperation with that need.

But the conflict comes when sometimes when the administration doesn't want to give information that you're asking. And sometimes it may strike a nerve.

LEMON: Yes. And you have to remember, too, the administration, and that's what they do, the administrations, they're trying to shape the message and the picture and whatever gets out. And many times the people who are covering the White House know the back story and the inside story and the average viewer American doesn't know that.

So, they may see you as contentious or upset about something and that -- but you only know why and maybe the White House, the press corps may know why as well, but not far beyond that.

RYAN: Right, right. So, Don, it's a very interesting relationship. You always try to bring some advance story and bring something new every day. But it's a fine line. We have to walk that line.

And, you know, former White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry said it's a friendly adversarial relationship. So, figure it out if you can. Every day we still try to walk that line and try to find the balance. Some days it's more friendly than others. Some days it's more adversarial. But we try to find and strike that balance.

LEMON: What do you see that we don't? I know we talked a little bit about children are off-limits, but sometimes you do see things, not just with the children but what do you see that maybe most people don't?

RYAN: Many sources, administration officials walking through the halls. It's not a West Wing-type of situation. It's not a hurry-up- let's-run, you know, type of scenario. You know, people are walking calmly through the halls and you run into people quite a bit and you can have a free exchange, you know, maybe for a few seconds, a few minutes.

Also, yes, the children are off-limits. You may see the dog periodically. You may see the first lady and you may run into the president even. And I'm not just talking about this administration. I'm talking about others as well.

LEMON: You said the children are off-limits, and we know that children because you'll see like just regular kids fighting or, you know, having an argument, whatever. But you don't really report on it because that's family business.

RYAN: I mean, you can see the kids having love taps, which is so cute, and you don't report on it.

You know, I remember walking by Chelsea Clinton one day during the Clinton years, and we knew that she was off-limits. And if we reported on her -- because she was not the elected official. She just happened to fall into the situation and we were already told, look, if you want to stay at the White House, do not report on Chelsea. So -- and that's pretty much the same with this administration. We can report on the dog all we want. But the children are off- limits.

LEMON: What about personal family issues or -- off-limits, yes, no, maybe?

RYAN: There's a fine line. There's a fine line. You have to make sure you know what you're talking about and you have to really verify whatever you hear before you put it out. Some things you can see and you know. But other things, you know, you really -- there's a lot of information that comes to you, but you have to -- as a reporter, as a credible reporter, you have to weed out what's not real and deal with the facts and go with what you know and make sure...

LEMON: And you have to ask the question.

RYAN: You have to ask the questions. And you also have to, not just get two sides of the story, but there's so many other sides of the story and you have to check those facts always.

LEMON: Yes. And there was that at my first station there was a sign over the assignment desk that said there's more than one side to every story, how many did you bring back?

RYAN: Yes.

LEMON: So, thank you so much, April Ryan. Good luck to you. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens.

RYAN: I'll let you know next week.

LEMON: Next week. We'll be seeing you in some boxing club. Hopefully not. Thanks, April.

RYAN: Bye.

LEMON: Bye.

A peek at the Kennedy Center Honors, next.

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LEMON: A who's who of Hollywood in Capitol Hill as the Kennedy Center honored five luminaries in the arts tonight.

Jack Black's take on Mel Brooks' film "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" had them rolling in the aisles. The president and first lady, well, they sat next to Brooks and the other honorees during the ceremony. They include opera singer Grace Bumbry, singer-songwriter Bruce Springsteen, actor-director Robert De Niro and pianist-composer Dave Brubeck.

Congratulations.

I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. See you back here next weekend at 6:00 and 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Have a great week everyone.