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Airport Security Secrets Revealed; Toppling the Taliban

Aired December 9, 2009 - 15:00   ET



RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Making news right now during your national conversation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do to make daddy like you?



SANCHEZ: Children forced into prostitution, and it is happening right here in the U.S.

Those men, those voices you hear are terrorists. You are going to hear how an American is accused of helping them. Then you will hear from this woman, who lost her husband and daughter. You will be shocked by what she says.

The White House puts heat on Pakistan to topple the Taliban.


SANCHEZ: Is the war being fought entirely wrong?

And Roland Martin is fired up about the leaked TSA screening manual.

Newsmakers reaching out to us on Twitter. Our access becomes your access during this hour of your national conversation for Wednesday, December 9, 2009.


SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. Here we go again with the next generation of news. This is a conversation. It's not a speech, and it is your turn to get involved.

Take care of business or step aside. That's what the U.S. is telling our -- quote -- "partner" Pakistan. This is important. That is President Obama's new no-nonsense, out-of-patience do it or we are going to do it for you attitude toward the Pakistani army. If you don't attack al Qaeda, if you don't attack Taliban in your country, we are tired of waiting. We, the United States of America, will. That is the newest mandate from the White House. According to "The New York Times," National Security Adviser James Jones met with his counterparts from Pakistan and essentially told them so. Is it about time that the U.S. takes this stance in Afghanistan? A lot of people would say yes. More on that in a moment.

But, first, I want you to hear this. This is from my conversation with none other than the CIA field commander who was in charge of the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was spotted at the time, who tried to get the White House, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, to take him out. But they didn't.

By the way, you can see this entire interview on my blog at But, first, here, let's do this together. Let's listen to the take, this field commander back in 2001, December, on Osama bin Laden and how little confidence he has now, this field commander, this CIA guy, in Pakistan's commitment to us.


SANCHEZ: Could you tell us physically how bin Laden crossed from Afghanistan into Waziristan in Pakistan or wherever it is he ended up going?

BERNTSEN: Would have crossed into the (INAUDIBLE) area of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas.

SANCHEZ: Did he walk?

BERNTSEN: It was on the 16th of December he crossed. Yes, he walked.

SANCHEZ: He just walked across?

BERNTSEN: He walked across there. There is no roads.

And let me say this. All those people who are Gitmo detainees that we captured up there weren't selling plumbing fixtures or looking for a wedding. Many of these people have claimed all sorts of nonsense, that they somehow got there by accident.

The point here is, is, once he fled down there, the Pakistanis are always looking at the Taliban, because they look at Afghanistan for strategic depth. They were allies before. And in the back of their minds, they're thinking they may be allies in the future.

But the point is, is we need them to capture him and turn him over to us. Our sons and daughters' lives depend upon it, our sons and daughters who are fighting on the battlefield in Afghanistan.


SANCHEZ: That's Gary Berntsen. We are going to have this guy on again. This guy knows his stuff.

Who said on this day, Gary Berntsen, by the way, and on this show that we need to put heat on Pakistan to help us? That is what he told me yesterday when I was interviewing him after the show.

Now, listen to what General McChrystal yesterday to the House Armed Services Committee.


GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, U.S. COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN: The hazard posed by extremists that operate on both sides of border with Pakistan with freedom of movement across that border must be mitigated by enhanced cross-border coordination and enhanced Pakistani engagement.


SANCHEZ: Here is another guy I'm looking forward to talking to, because he has got an opinion very different than most. And sometimes those are the best people to talk about stories like this. So, I am glad I'm able to bring him to you. Let me tell you who he is.

Andrew Bacevich is a professor of international relations at Boston University who lost a son in the Iraq war. Talk about having a dog in the fight, right? He is a West Point grad. He's a Vietnam veteran, and he is a retired Army colonel. And I am glad we got him here today.

Thank you, sir, for being with us.


SANCHEZ: Professor, let me start by this. I get a sense of when I listen to you and when I read what you have written that you believe -- let me put it this way.

Most Americans think that putting the military emphasis on Iraq was wrong. And I think as Americans we have all kind of come to an agreement on that. But you go further. You say that putting the emphasis on Afghanistan was equally wrong. And I am talking about the military emphasis. Explain why.

BACEVICH: Well, I think it is the military emphasis that is the -- sort of the essential point that I object to.

If we crank our memory back to 2001 after 9/11, President Bush said that the antidote to violent anti-Western jihadism was to embark upon an open-ended global war. That war opened in Afghanistan. He quickly moved it to Iraq. Eight-plus years later, we are back in Afghanistan.

It is not evident to me that the jihadist threat is being appreciably reduced, despite the fact that we have spent probably upwards of $1 trillion and lost several thousand American lives.


BACEVICH: So, my basic question is...

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

BACEVICH: ... is it possible that protracted war does not provide the solution we are looking for here?

SANCHEZ: Protracted war. I get a sense that when you say protracted war, what you are talking about is fighting this war like a World War II movie scene, like a Battle of the Bulge, which is what Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld essentially set out to do. You think that was a mistake.

BACEVICH: I think that Rumsfeld's expectations -- and it was not just Rumsfeld, but certainly he shared them -- his expectations that the global war on terror would consist of a series of short, sharp, decisive campaigns turned out to be folly.

I mean, what is interesting to the point that we have come to, as we return to Afghanistan, and as Afghanistan once again becomes the main theater or the central front, we no longer have the remotest expectation that U.S. forces are going to achieve any prompt decision there.

We accept the fact that this counterinsurgency that General McChrystal wants to prosecute is something that's going to unfold over a very long period of time, and is unlikely to produce a victory.

SANCHEZ: And not specifically in any one geographic location. You made a point of saying this during your NPR interview which I heard the other day on the way to work, which you made an analogy to the assassination of John F. Kennedy for example.

Share that with us, if you would.

BACEVICH: Well, the argument is made with regard to Afghanistan that since that is where the 9/11 plot was hatched -- and that is certainly the case -- therefore, it follows that we have to maintain this presence there, so that there is not another 9/11-type attack.

And the point I was making is, the last time we had a president assassinated, it happened in Dallas back in 1963, and I don't think that we can prevent the next president from being -- a president from being assassinated simply by putting Secret Service agents in the Dallas -- the Texas School Book Depository.

SANCHEZ: So, here is how we do it.


BACEVICH: The threat to the president can come from anywhere. The threat of terrorism can come from many places other than Afghanistan.

SANCHEZ: So, final question because we are out of time and we're down to 30 seconds. This new idea, this new initiative being put out by the White House that essentially says what we have got to do is pinpoint the bad guys and pinpoint the ideas and take them out with things like drone and put pressure on Pakistan for example to help us do it or else, I get a feeling you respect that decision, you agree with that, more than you do the way we have fought the war in the last eight years?


If we can identify bad guys, we ought to take them out. And, yes, we should put pressure on Pakistan, but I think we ought to be realistic here. I mean, the Pakistanis don't see things the way we do. The Pakistanis are well aware of the fact that we, ourselves, have been, to put it mildly, inconsistent and unfaithful friends to Pakistan.

So, they are not about to just sort of lay down and do whatever we want.

SANCHEZ: My thanks to you, Professor, for being with us. Good luck with the book, and thanks for sharing your insight.

BACEVICH: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: In the next hour, CNN's Christiane Amanpour is going to sit down with General Stanley McChrystal as well to discuss the strategy in Afghanistan.

And, look, what we want to do here at CNN is give you as much perspective and as much analysis as we possibly can from people who are in the know, from people with experience. That interview by the way with Christiane Amanpour and General McChrystal is coming up in "THE SITUATION ROOM." It will begin at 4:00 Eastern time.

By the way, speaking of people who are in the know, Senator John McCain has just tweeted us moments ago. I'm going to be taking you to what he says. There's Rick's List. It's where we compile the list of people who are relevant to any given story on any given day. Today, obviously, we are highlighting Afghanistan, and John McCain has made the list and you will hear what he tweeted me coming up in just a little bit.

Meanwhile, this...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you do to me to make daddy like you again?



SANCHEZ: This is a child that is being sexually exploited, a child. You are not going to believe how widespread this problem is and how close it may be to your neighborhood. It is an investigative report that we have got coming your way in just a little bit. Also, a TSA manual on how to screen airline passengers is leaked on the Internet. How much damage will this do? How safe will we be? Roland Martin is saying he is hot and bothered about this one. He is fired up, and he is going to join me on this in just a little bit.

Also, don't forget the other way you can participate on this show, on this thing we call the national conversation, it is called the hey, Rick, line, because you begin by saying, hey, Rick, and then talk.

The number is 877-742-5751.


CALLER: Hey, Rick. This is Mike from Pennsylvania.

In regard to Osama bin Laden, have we forgotten that it was President Clinton who had a clear shot at Laden and he didn't take it, and maybe it would have prevented 9/11? Thank you.




CALLER: Hey, Rick James from Chicago.

It is about time the Obama administration is putting pressure on Pakistan. The Bush administration did not do it. This cannot go on forever. The domestic agenda must take precedence sooner or later, sooner, rather than later. So, you need boots on the ground for Afghanistan or American troops need to be in there. Get the Taliban and get this over with.

Thanks a lot.


SANCHEZ: Boy, a lot of heat today about Pakistan, huh? That is what we are talking about, your feedback instantly on the news of the day. Speaking of Pakistan, I want to bring in this real quick. Five people arrested today in Pakistan. We are told that three of them are Americans with dual nationalities.

We have heard now that Pakistan police are sure they say that they are the same five guys all reportedly Muslims who reported missing from Virginia under what has been called mysterious circumstances. One more thing, the police in Punjab Province are saying that they are confident that the five mean, three of them Americans with dual nationality, key words there dual nationality, were planning to carry out terrorist attacks.

No official word yet from the FBI, who is also working on this case. We are obviously going to be staying on top of this. And we have got this thing called Rick's List where we make a list every day of relevant people who are out there who might have something to say about the stories that we are covering. There is the Rick's List we showed you moments ago.

And there's the specific tweet that we are now talking about. We received this tweet. As you can see, it directed at ricksanchezCNN.

It says: "I was pleased with the general affirming Gates' statement about winning in Afghanistan," referring to what we are doing now with putting the heat on Pakistan, we presume. And it is signed by Senator John McCain. There you go. Senator John McCain tweeting the show, and he is on our list.


MARTHA BRADSHAW, SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL EXPLOITATION: I am glad that I am a survivor. I didn't think I was going to be able to see my 15th birthday and I am sitting here with you at 21.


SANCHEZ: Young girls being sexually exploited, no, not overseas, but right in our own backyard. This is a stunning report that you need to see.

Also, terrorists in Mumbai caught on camera carrying out a deadly terrorist attack. You are going to see it play out. And I am also going to talk to a relative of one of the victims. You heard me telling Kyra about this just a little while ago. You may be surprised by what she has to say.

Stay right there.


SANCHEZ: We welcome you back to the world headquarters of CNN. I'm Rick Sanchez.

This may shock you. It certainly has that -- that type of effect on me. On a busy night, as many as 129 young girls -- now, I'm talking as young as 10 years old -- are being sold for sex. This is not a report about Thailand, by the way, or Brazil or the Ukraine. It is about this country, our country.

In fact, in this case, it is not far from where I am sitting right now here in Atlanta, Georgia. Experts on this phenomenon say as many as 100,000 kids are forced into the world's oldest profession every single year all across the United States.

Some of the grainy video that you are seeing right here is kind of troubling to watch.

Our reporter is CNN's Nicole Lapin.



(on camera): I'm here to take care of things that people didn't take care of. I'm here to let you know that you're not alone. I'm here to let you know that you have strength and you are a survivor and you will overcome anything and everything.

(singing): Through when your dreams are only blue.

NICOLE LAPIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Martha B. has soul. You can hear it in her new song with Shante O'Connor and Mary J. Blige called, "This Is To Mother You." It's a message she was never told growing up in New York City. Lured by a pimp when she was just 14 years old.

BRADSHAW (singing): For Child we am so glad we found you.

(on camera): He sold me a Picasso when it was really a doodle. He was like, you know, I can do this, I can do that, we can have a family. You can do what you want to do and still make money. You don't have to do much. And it was a lie. He didn't tell me that he was going to hit me. He didn't tell me he was going to throw me up and down flights of stairs. He didn't tell me that he was going to starve me. He didn't tell me that he was going to rape me. He just told me that life was going to be all grand, great and perfect, when it really wasn't.

(singing): Though when your nights are lonely.

LAPIN: Martha has come a long way since then. She's now a successful artist and performer. And she did it by working with Rachel Lloyd.

RACHEL LLOYD, FOUNDER, GEMS: Coming in here is the first time that they're hearing, you were victimized. This was done to you.

LAPIN: Rachel started GEMS. It's an organization based in Harlem to help young women recover from scenes like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell them what you want to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanna be with the fam, but I keep (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want can you do to make daddy like you again?



LAPIN: This is provocative video, obtained by the group, of pimps on the hunt for young girls like Martha.

BRADSHAW: You hardly understand who you are as a pre-teen, more or less who you are as a sexually exploited you. You don't even know that you're a sexually exploited you. You don't know who you are. It's a real lonely feeling. LAPIN (on camera): It's estimated that 200,000 to 300,000 young people are at risk all across the United States. How do you get that number to zero?

LLOYD: I think beginning to change our perceptions about who these young people are and beginning to recognize them as victims. I think addressing the demand side. The fact that if there are potentially 200,000, 300,000 young people who are being bought for sex, who's doing the buying? Beginning to recognize the men in our communities, men in our families, men in our workplaces are buying sex and often buying sex from children I think is critical.

BRADSHAW: And I'm glad that I am a survivor. I didn't think I was going to be able to see my 15th birthday, and I'm sitting here with you at 21. So, it's a blessing. As long as I wake up in the morning, I can take it from there. You know, I remember a gun jamming at my head. So for me to wake up is a blessing all within itself.


SANCHEZ: And Nicole Lapin is good enough to join us now.

How young do they start? What kind of ages you seeing out there?

LAPIN: Twelve years old, the average American girl lured into the world of sex trafficking, 12 years old.

SANCHEZ: That is -- that is amazing just to hear.

Have we seen an increase in the last couple of years, given the fact that the economy has been kind of rough?

LAPIN: I mean, anecdotally, yes, empirically, not really. We do know that 90 percent of these young women lured into sex trafficking, Rick, came from broken homes, came from homes where there was sexual abuse, where there was physical abuse, and they go out to those streets and they are dealing with the same type of things.

SANCHEZ: Good stuff. Good report. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Nicole Lapin.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As scores of people were being gunned down at the railway station, another pair of clean-cut Pakistani boys in their early 20s blasted through the entrance of one of Mumbai's top five- star hotels, the Trident-Oberoi.


SANCHEZ: Chilling moments just the horrific terror attack in Mumbai. You are going to see it play out, and I'm going to talk to a woman who lost her husband and her daughter in the attack. She forgives those gunmen, she says.

Democrats in the Senate reach a deal on health care -- how they did it without including the government public option. After all this, no public option, as we reported yesterday. That is next.


SANCHEZ: This time yesterday, I was drilling down on this for you, and I told you that a group of Senate Democrats was about to pull the plug on the so-called public health care option.

There they are right now. And what they ended up doing is what I told you they were going to do. With the blessing of the majority leader, Harry Reid, they pulled the public option out of the Senate's health care bill. As you know, a public option has been the bottom- line demand of many liberals, and it's also had the support of the White House.

But just a short time ago, President Obama came out and told us, he is fine with this compromise deal. Here it is.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Senate made critical progress last night with a creative new framework that I believe will help pave the way for final passage and a historic achievement on behalf of the American people.

I support this effort, especially since it's aimed at increasing choice and competition and lowering costs.


SANCHEZ: So, the president is fine with deep-sixing the public option. What the liberals got in return, that is still shaking out, but we believe it is along the lines of what I told you yesterday that they were thinking about doing, some kind of private not-for-profit option, and an expansion of Medicare to include people as young as 55 in the future.

I will say it again. This is all about rounding up the 60 votes in the Senate, which is the only way they are going to get anything passed. And this compromise plan may have found at least one Republican taker, maybe.

Let me read you this reaction from Vermont's Olympia Snowe. Snowe says the plan "can be an innovative approach. "She goes on the say, "I would need to know more about how it would work."

Amen, Senator. I think most Americans would likely agree with you.


CONTROLLER (through translator): Fahadullah, are you there?

GUNMAN (through translator): Yes, I'm listening.

CONTROLLER (through translator): You're very close to heaven, brother. Today's the day you'll be remembered for, brother. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: "Today is the day you go to heaven, my brother." That's what he just said. And then an attack commenced that left at least 160 people dead.

I am going to speak to a woman who lost everything that day during that attack, and yet she has something to say about the terrorists which, well, you may find surprising.


SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Now the story of a man suspected of plotting a terror attack that killed at least 160 people in Mumbai, India. Here is the point, he is an American, an American from Chicago, David Headley is his name. He said in court today that he is not guilty.

Now, let me ask you a question, if you lost your family in an attack like Mumbai, could you deal with it? Could you forgive the terrorists? In just a moment, I'm going to talk to a woman who was forced to answer those questions in real life. Her husband and her daughter were gunned down in Mumbai.

But first, I want to show you just how bad it was inside of this hotel Oberoi. It is so graphic, this report, that at times you may even want to look away. It is from the HBO documentary "Terror in Mumbai" that we are showing on CNN this weekend.


FAREED ZAKARIA, NARRATOR (voice-over): As scores of people were being gunned down at the railway station, another pair of clean-cut Pakistani boys in the early 20s blasted through the entrance of one of Mumbai's top five-star hotels, the Trident Oberoi. The lead gunman was wore Fahad Ullah, who wore black.

Fahad Ullah and his accomplice killed nine staff and three guests in the lobby.


SANCHEZ: Kia Scherr's husband and 13-year-old daughter were inside a restaurant at the Oberoi when the terrorists struck.


Kia, thanks so much for being with us. You and I spoke just a little while ago, but let me just offer our condolences on behalf of all of us here at CNN, first of all.


SANCHEZ: How have you been able to deal with the fact that your husband and daughter were killed mercilessly? And, how are you not angry?

SCHERR: Well, first of all, remember that I had the support not only of the spiritual director of Synchronicity, my family, and I discovered that I have a world family, because right away, messages of love and condolence came in from all over the world, through our Web site directly to me, very heart-felt messages from Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, people of all countries, as far away as Peru.

And it showed me that as human beings, we are all connected because we value life. And when life is lost so tragically, it brings home how much we really do value life. And that's the conversation that we want to continue by forming an organization to provide a context to do that. And that is One Life Alliance.

SANCHEZ: Do you forgive the people who shot and killed your husband and daughter?

SCHERR: I do. I find I can't do otherwise. I have been a meditator for over 36 years. That experience has brought me to experience a deeper connection to all in my world and in my life. And I know that by holding on to anger, judgment, hatred, revenge, resentment, it is like poison. That's like holding myself hostage.

SANCHEZ: But it is also a human instinct -- I mean, it's almost a natural...

SCHERR: It is.

SANCHEZ: ... human reaction.

SCHERR: Yes, yes.

SANCHEZ: And one would think that on any given day that feeling has to enter your thinking, does it not?

SCHERR: It is not so much thinking. My mind was kind of blasted away by all of this and I am left with my heart, which the essence of which is love, and I have experienced that on a deeper level than ever before. But I was just -- it is funny that you brought that up about the instincts, because, yes, as human beings and life in general has two polarities, negative and positive, and I was reading this beautiful -- and you've probably heard this, it is well-known.

A Cherokee story about the young man who goes to his grandfather and says, I am feeling a fight within me, because one of his friends had betrayed him and he was feeling hatred, and the grandfather told him about his experience that he had two wolves inside of him.

And one of the wolves was full of hatred, anger, revenge and wanted to kill. And the other wolf was full of peace, love, compassion, harmony. And the little boy said, well, which one is winning out? And the grandfather said, the one that I feed. That is a very important point. Don't both of us have both of those inside of us? And aren't we at choice? Aren't we at choice? SANCHEZ: Well, you make a decision, you make a choice, and it seems in your case that you are handling it very, very well. My thanks to you for joining us, for taking us through this very personal situation you are in, And once again, our condolences for your loss.

SCHERR: Thank you.



JANET NAPOLITANO, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The security of the traveling public has never been put at risk, and that -- the document that was posted was an out-of-date document.


SANCHEZ: She is talking about the handbook on how that nation's security is conducted at our airports being leaked on the Internet. How bad really is the damage? Your access to what the experts are saying via "Rick's List" right here. We will continue to check on the list where we put the people there who essentially are checking into us.

You know, our access is your access, and that is what we do. In fact, let's go to it real quick if we possibly can. Senator Collins checking in. She made the list today and this is what she is saying, by the way, about the story that we are going to be addressing in just a moment.

"Shocking breach by TSA posting security manual online. DHS needs to explain how this happened and how to prevent it in the future." Again, that is Senator Susan Collins who is on "Rick's List" today. We will be right back.



CALLER: Hey, Rick. C.J. from South Carolina. Listen, if you think that terrorists are so dumb that they don't know the limitations of an airport X-ray machine and the like, then, you are probably the one who needs their head examined. They know. They already know. They are not that stupid. Hell, a lot of them already had college degrees. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


SANCHEZ: There you go. You are sharing your opinions with me, and I appreciate it. And by the way, we have got "Rick's List." And you know what "Rick's List" is? It's where we basically compile all of the people who are a number of people who are relevant to any particular story. Our ability to check in with these people becomes your ability to check in with these people everyday at 3:00.

Let me show you, first of all, the list as it stands. Go back to that, if you would, Eric. Show the list first, and then we will get in on the -- OK, there is the list. See, over there on the right, you see all of the different lists that we have compiled. under the heading "list" on the right. And the first one we compiled today is about TSA right there in the red.

And we want the talk to the people who are part of the TSA "Rick's List." OK, now let's go -- and tight on TSA "Rick's List." And the first one we see right there -- we talked to Susan Collins just a little while ago, this is @NewYorkCityAviation (ph), it's a news and resource organization for the airline industry, they say that about this situation with TSA: "The TSA leak is the equivalent of the opposing football team getting your playbook, but in football, the losing team doesn't die."

Now let's go with @FlyingwithFish (ph), this comes from an airline industry consultant. He says: "Most people seeking to play with the TSA can't replicate a U.S. CIA credential, but a skilled person can and may do so." That is in reference to part of the TSA leak that deals with that particular issue.

And then @ArcherBravo (ph), this is Chris Archer (ph), he is a pilot and a blogger and that is why we put him on this list today, and he says: "You can't have formulas for airport security. There are just too many variables, people, and agendas."

So, there you go, some important conversation we thought you would want to hear as a part of our specialized list that we prepare every single day.

Also this, what does the cartoon character Charlie Brown have to do with President Obama? I'm going to tell you what a Tennessee mayor says it has to do with -- they have to do with each other. I should also tell you it is something he had to apologize for yesterday. Stay there.


SANCHEZ: We just showed you blog that we have been checking on throughout the day, this is the TSA blog that we have over here on the right, and there are some of the tweets that we have been getting from some of them. Put that TSA blog back on, I will show you exactly what it looks like. There it is.

And the guy who writes their blog is called in "Blogger Bob (ph). Let me tell you why this is important today. Much is being made of this TSA screening procedure leak on the Internet. All right. let me take you through this, if I possibly can. Here is what happened. Some documents somehow made it onto the Internet, 93 pages of a government manual showing TSA workers how to screen airline passengers.

The manual also mentions that airport X-ray machines do have their limitations. Well, here is what the head of the homeland security told a Senate committee today. Janet Napolitano says that nobody was ever at risk, that the manual was not classified and wasn't even current, still we're told that five individuals have now been placed on administrative leave for letting the document to get on to the Internet anyway.

All right. You're going to want to stick around for this, because Roland Martin is going to join me in just a couple of minutes. He is fired up about this document leak thing. And he will join me in just a minute.

Towering waves in Hawaii for the world's top competition. pictures so cool, you won't be able to get through this hour without looking at them.


SANCHEZ: You know about the swallows returning to Capistrano. You know about thunderstorms being a the daily occurrence in parts of South Florida in July. But did you know, though, that in Hawaii, only once every few years are the waves high enough for this? Let's do "Fotos."

Folks, those are what you call barrels, and they are so big they actually are as high as a five-story building. People gather to watch them, think about what it must feel like to be thrown off one of these monsters five stories high?

By the way, aren't there lots of great whites in these waters as well? Just asking. Here is the news from island of Oahu. The conditions they need for this event have occurred only eight times in the past 25 years. They have got them now.

Arlington, Tennessee, the mayor there seems to believe that the White House is involved in a conspiracy against Charlie Brown, and says so in a Facebook entry. Russell Wiseman is the mayor's name. He wrote this on his Facebook page.

"OK. So this is total crap. We sit the kids down to watch the 'Charlie Brown Christmas Special' and our Muslim president is there. What a load. Try to convince me that that wasn't done on purpose."

Mayor Wiseman apologized Monday and has now deleted his Facebook page. A conspiracy by the White House against Charlie Brown. Hmm, really, Mayor?

Snow in Wisconsin is not news, but when you get enough of it, it is called a blizzard, and that is news, 15 to 18 inches already in some areas. snarling travel. Governor Jim Doyle declared a state of emergency, residents are being told to travel only for absolute necessities. And the best part for kids in Wisconsin is there is no school! Snow day! Yes.

Roland Martin is fired up once again. When is he not fired up, this guy? This time he's fired up about the TSA manual debacle. There he is with that big sunshine smile of his. He and I are going to get into this in just a little bit. I've got a little different perspective.

Also the president accepts the Nobel Peace Prize tomorrow, there's some new poll numbers that show a lot of folks think maybe he doesn't deserve it, yet, anyway. I'll be right back.


SANCHEZ: Roland Martin is here for our weekly "R&R" segment. Look at him looking all studious over there. Are you as concerned as he is about this? Roland, this whole TSA story has got me a little baffled, by the way. Federal government posting page after page of airline screening procedures on the Internet for everyone to see, need I say, including potential terrorists.

And that, as always, is what gets so many people so fired up about this when they hear about this, because they immediately think of, uh-oh, 9/11, they'll do it to us again and we're helping them.

All right. Roland, you have the floor, sir. What's your take on this?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: OK. What is the name of the department?

SANCHEZ: Homeland Security?

MARTIN: TSA, right?


MARTIN: Which falls under Homeland Security, right?

SANCHEZ: Yes, TSA, under Homeland Security.

MARTIN: You can't protect -- you can't protect a document from the Internet, but you actually think you're going to protect folks flying? That -- look, Rick, I have run four Web sites, there is a process for you to actually put information online. This is absolutely nonsense.

I mean, it's total nonsense. Look, I'm in airports probably three to four cities a week. And I can tell you personally, you have different procedures being followed by different people at different checkpoints at the same airport. So you have no consistency whatsoever.

But to sit here and reveal these level of secrets makes no sense whatsoever. So forget suspending somebody, surely somebody has to be fired. And you must crack down and make it clear we're going to have a clear security guidelines that we're going to implement.

SANCHEZ: Five people, by the way, have been dismissed as a result of this. All of them on administrative leave...


MARTIN: Oh, no, no, (INAUDIBLE), five low-level people? Or what about higher-ups? Because we had the inspector general, Rick...

(CROSSTALK) SANCHEZ: But those guys don't know how to use computers...


SANCHEZ: They don't know how to keep away from hackers. They don't know how these computers work. You know that.

MARTIN: Oh yes, they do. Oh yes, they do.


SANCHEZ: Not the older folks.

MARTIN: Oh yes, they do. Trust me. It's always the low-level folks who always get shanked by folks and the higher-ups always keep their jobs.

SANCHEZ: Here's the point, though, all right? Now here -- let me argue with you a little bit, because I've got a little bit of experience with this. Here's the reason we were hit on 9/11. We were hit...


MARTIN: I know I saw you at a TSA checkpoint before.

SANCHEZ: No, no, we were hit on 9/11 because we had a policy back then that essentially told the pilot, and I'm going to be a little dismissive about this, if there is ever somebody who wants to hijack your plane, let them in, get them a cup of coffee, give them your seat, ask them where they want to go, and take them there. We started this policy during the 1960s and '70s when a new guy named Pedro or Jose was essentially taking a plane from Miami or from Mexico to Cuba all the time.

So the airline industry decided, in its infinite wisdom, from now on, don't get in these people's ways, you know what, have an open-door policy, let them go in there, just keep the passengers safe by taking them wherever they want.

That was the mistake. That's what we don't do anymore. And as a result of what we're doing now, which certainly has its flaws, but as a result of what we're doing now, the next time we get attacked, it's not going to be on a plane. They've already ridden that horse, haven't they?

MARTIN: OK. All right. Let me -- let me -- OK, so (INAUDIBLE) has a dramatic effect, OK, Rick, shoe, right? Shoe bomber, had that guy lit that shoe...

SANCHEZ: Richard Reid.

MARTIN: ... that plane would have blown up in the air, Rick. And so I understand your point, but it goes beyond, it goes beyond just the question of allowing someone in the cockpit. You had virtually no security procedures. And look, in the United States... (CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: But we do. It's a random -- but here's the point, man. The point is, it's random sampling. That's the way it works. The fact that I know...


MARTIN: But, Rick -- but here's the deal, Rick...

SANCHEZ: Wait, let me just make this point. The fact that I know that I may be -- they're only checking every third person, but I may be that third person, because I don't know where it is. I don't control the check. One airport may be good, one airport may be bad, but I don't know which airport is good and which airport is bad. That in and of itself serves as a deterrent.

MARTIN: Rick, but no, here is the deal, we had our entire economy affected by this. Remember, they went after planes in, what, three different cities? Two different cities?


MARTIN: So you had a coordinated thing going on here. All you need, all you need is one person to get through. That's all you need. And so what you have to have are clear procedures. Now I get the whole notion of, it's all random, but at the end of the day, if it's just one person getting through, and then you have one plane attack, all of a sudden we are back to where we were, airline stocks go down, security lockdown, people are afraid to fly, afraid to travel, everything is all affected. We can...


SANCHEZ: But isn't this antiquated -- isn't this...


SANCHEZ: Isn't this antiquated thinking? All we have on our minds is 9/11 as our model...


SANCHEZ: Maybe we need a new model in our minds, because I guarantee you that the terrorists aren't sitting there, going, OK, how do we repeat that process all over again? They're not thinking airports anymore. They're probably thinking about something else. We're the ones who are stuck on airports.

MARTIN: And you know what, Rick? And that's the thinking they want. They want us to let our guard down. They want us to say, oh, they've moved on to somewhere else. We can no longer be reactive in this country for -- look, We knew the O-rings had issues with the shuttle, but until it blew up, we said, hmm, let's fix that.

We've had car companies, new problems with brakes and with fuel tanks, something happened, oh, now let's fix it. We have to be on the offensive. We cannot sit back and say, oh, they're going to bypass us again. No.

If you were effective one time, they saw how they were effective in terms of crippling this country with 9/11. Are you trying to tell me they would never try it again? No, you must stop it and have procedures in place.

SANCHEZ: You know what's funny about Americans? We want people to protect us and we want to be protected, but every single time I get on a -- go to an airport, whether it's La Guardia or Hartsfield here in Atlanta...

MARTIN: I know where you're going.

SANCHEZ: ... it seems like nine out of 10 people are angry at these TSA guys, they take everything out on the TSA guys. And yet...

MARTIN: And that is why it takes...

SANCHEZ: Why is that, by the way?

MARTIN: You should take the...

SANCHEZ: Why is that?

MARTIN: Because -- frankly, because they're idiots and they're impatient, and it's no different than if you ran a stop sign and somebody said, why are you stopping me? You should be going and stopping criminals...


SANCHEZ: But they're doing their jobs. They're doing what -- they're doing their jobs.

MARTIN: But, Rick, it takes...

SANCHEZ: It's a monotonous job they have to do, which they have to toil in that...

MARTIN: I agree.

SANCHEZ: ... world. I know it's frustrating...

MARTIN: I agree.

SANCHEZ: ... but we should be a little more thankful, shouldn't we?

MARTIN: Well, yes, and that's one of the points I want to make as well. The American people are going to have to suck it up and learn to be patient and go through the process. Look, they check all my stuff. I have technical gear all the time. Let me check your bag. Go right ahead, No problem. That's why I got here early enough. And so the one out of 10 -- maybe we should tell our fellow passengers, hey, shut the hell up, take all of the time that you actually need, they should check your behind. Because, Rick, we cannot sit here and just get all upset. Again, the same people who complain were the first ones saying, well, they didn't check me and I just went right through.

SANCHEZ: The problem is -- the problem is too many of us are OK with anybody else getting checked. It's when they start delaying me or making me possibly late...


SANCHEZ: ... to my flight that I've got a problem.

MARTIN: It's called not in my -- not in my backyard.

SANCHEZ: Exactly.

MARTIN: Not in my backyard.

But going back to the central issue, you have to have TSA make it clear in terms of here are our policies and guidelines. You cannot put this kind of report out there. But you also must have clarity...

SANCHEZ: No, I mean, look...

MARTIN: ... across the line in airports. I'm tired of flying, Rick, where it's like, oh, no, you don't have to show your boarding pass, put it in your pocket, no the next gate, no, you have to show your boarding pass. I've said, guys, can you all tell me what is your actual rule...

SANCHEZ: I think this...

MARTIN: ... so you guys can follow it?

SANCHEZ: I'll tell you, it seems to me that we all agree that they probably should be criticized for this mistake. It just seems like some of it has been a little over the top.

MARTIN: No, not criticize, not criticize, fix the problem. I'm tired of inspector general reports. Fix the problem. That's what we need to have done.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much, man. I appreciate it, as usual.

Wolf Blitzer is now is in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, thanks very much.