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Nancy Grace
Phoenix Mom Refuses to Talk About Missing 8-Month-Old
Aired January 05, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car for a 978- mile road trip with this beautiful 10-month-old (SIC) baby boy, Gabriel. She ends up spending Christmas in a local motel, San Antonio, Texas, along the way, calling the 25-year-old biological father, threatening he`d never see the baby again, even telling him baby Gabriel is dead. Turns out she was trying to give the baby away the whole time to a couple, to adopt the baby to an Arizona couple.
December 30, Mommy`s located in Miami Beach, Florida in a youth hostel, minus the baby, her car abandoned somewhere between Florida and San Antonio. She claims she gave the baby away to a couple she met at a campground along the way. Tonight, can we save this little angel-face baby, baby Gabriel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in three states are desperately searching for a missing 8-month-old boy who was last seen with his mother, who is now under arrest and police say is refusing to cooperate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers say Elizabeth Johnson took her son, Gabriel, from her home in Tempe, Arizona, December 18 and went to San Antonio, where they stayed until December 27th. Johnson was arrested in Miami Beach on New Year`s Eve, but the baby wasn`t with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That day, she basically said, There`s no way in hell you`re ever seeing your son again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say little Gabriel Johnson was sighted with his mother on December 26th in San Antonio. The next day, Gabriel`s mother, Elizabeth Johnson, sent Gabriel`s father a text message saying she killed the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was scared when she first said it and went right to the police station. I didn`t know what to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Johnson has previously made threats to harm her son and just recently lost custodial rights to the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are now saying they have indications Gabriel may still be alive. Gabriel`s father says after Gabriel`s disappearance, he received adoption notice from a couple who allegedly tried to convince him to give Gabriel up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They keep wanting me to sign the paperwork. When Gabriel disappeared, they said, basically, you know, If you really care about your son and you want him back and you want him to bring her back -- or Elizabeth to bring him back, that you`ll sign the paperwork and then she`ll bring him back to us and you`ll know he`s safe. And I said, No, I`m not signing any paperwork.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local investigators are working are with the FBI to try and locate Johnson`s vehicle, a white `95 Oldsmobile with Arizona plates, hoping the vehicle may contain clues that could lead them to Gabriel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live to Utah, the mystery surrounding the sudden suspicious disappearance on a gorgeous young stockbroker, the mother of two little children. Investigators combing the family home, the family van and a rented vehicle. Why -- why -- did Daddy take his two little boys camping at midnight in freezing weather the night Mommy goes missing? I don`t like it!
Tonight, at this hour, still no sign of the 28-year-old mother of two, the story taking even more bizarre twists and turns. Where is Susan Powell?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any idea what happened to her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Thank you. And any help to try to find her would -- would be appreciated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: West Valley police say Joshua Powell remains their only person of interest in Susan`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speculation comes from Josh`s story that he took his 2 and 4-year-old sons camping in the freezing cold of the west desert on the night Susan disappeared from their West Valley home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of times, I just go camping with my boys. You know, nothing big. I just go overnight. And we do s`mores and stuff like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there was quite a huge effort out in the west desert looking for any sign of her. Is that where you were camping?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just have to go get my boys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was at (INAUDIBLE) Susan and Josh Powell`s home town of Kuwalis (ph) that Josh arrived with one of their sons, friends surprised he`d leave Utah during the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- I didn`t do anything. I mean, I -- I don`t know where she`s at. I -- I don`t even know where to start looking. I`m just trying to -- trying to figure out what I can do and -- both trying to find her and try to take care of life in general.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Live to Arizona, a gorgeous 23-year-old mother takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car. She heads out on a 978-mile road trip, taking along with her her beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. She ends up spending Christmas holed up in a local motel, San Antonio, along the way, repeatedly calling the 25-year-old biological father, threatening he`d never see the baby boy again, even telling him the baby is dead.
Turns out she was wanting to give the baby away the whole time, planning an adoption to an Arizona couple. That didn`t happen. She`s located in a Florida youth hostel, minus the baby. Tonight, she`s telling cops she gave the baby away to a couple she met at a campground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In several states, police are looking for an 8- month-old infant last seen the day after Christmas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Gabriel was last seen in San Antonio with his mother, Elizabeth Johnson, on December 26the. The next day, Johnson sends a text message to Gabriel`s father, telling him she killed the child and put the baby in a bag in a dumpster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s always been up and down with her. I don`t know really what makes her take -- makes her go off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities believe the story may be a hoax as part of an attempt by Johnson to sell the baby or give him up for adoption.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, didn`t want me to have him and wanted to put him up for adoption -- better life. That`s what she kept saying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are searching for Johnson`s car, a white `95 Olds Delta 88 with Arizona plates.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She put in the text, I killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she killed him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Past tense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I killed him. That`s what she said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After Gabriel`s disappearance, Gabriel`s father received adoption notice from an Arizona couple who wanted to adopt the child. He refused to sign the papers. Days later, Johnson is arrested in Florida, charged with custodial interference, but reportedly refuses to cooperate with cops and tell them where Gabriel is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She loves that baby enough that I believe -- I believe that she would probably stay in jail the rest of her life to make sure he was safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Make sure he`s safe? Who was that talking? Staff, New York, who was that that just said she wants to make sure the baby`s safe, but she says she gives the baby away to a couple she meets at a camp ground?
To Mike Sakal with "The East Valley Tribune" joining us from Phoenix, Arizona. Mike, what do we know tonight?
MIKE SAKAL, "EAST VALLEY TRIBUNE": What we know tonight is, according to Tammi Smith of Phoenix, who was one of these prospective parents interested in adopting the child, she had a telephone conversation with Elizabeth earlier this afternoon, and Elizabeth is claiming that she did not kill the child but that that child was given away to a family, to a couple, in San Antonio, Texas.
GRACE: That doesn`t even make sense to you, Mike Sakal -- Mike joining us from "The East Valley Tribune" -- because if she was so concerned about the child`s safety, why didn`t she give it to the prospective adoptees, the parents?
By the way, I`ve just been informed in my ear that that woman speaking was the woman who wanted to adopt the baby. Go ahead, Mike, why didn`t she go through with that?
SAKAL: That authorities haven`t said yet, and they`re even trying to piece together whether or not this young lady was dealing behind the scenes with people in other states, trying to give up the child for adoption. And the husband -- or the boyfriend, Logan Scott McQueary, he claims that she was trying to get back at him by saying that she killed the child when he would not sign the papers over.
GRACE: OK. I`m sorry, Mike, I`m just taking a look at this baby. Liz, please show the baby in full. Look at this baby. He`s 8 months old. I can remember how helpless baby John David and little Lucy were at 8 months. And according to this woman, she gave the baby away to a couple she meets at a campground!
And what I find very disturbing -- out to you, Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story -- is she won`t tell cops where she abandoned her car. Well, it`s her grandfather`s car. That aside, somewhere between Tempe, Arizona, San Antonio, Texas, and Miami Beach, Florida, she loses the car. Why won`t she tell the police where she left the car? Is it because there`s evidence in that car?
And also, Matt Zarrell, why won`t she tell police where the campground was? Take a look at this car, everybody, a 1995 white Olds Delta, a Delta 88. Take a look at it. Here`s the tag. A, alpha, G, grace, Z, zebra, 4214. She won`t tell them where she left the car and she won`t tell them where the campground was where she allegedly gave the baby away, Matt Zarrell.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, and what`s interesting, Nancy, is the second she was arrested, the first thing that she did was she lawyered up. Now, we know...
GRACE: I don`t like that, either.
ZARRELL: Yes. We know that in -- she was in San Antonio until about December 27. The baby was last seen with the mother December 26the in San Antonio. Now, there is a possibility...
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa! Who saw the baby alive?
ZARRELL: Police say they have witnesses that saw the baby. There`s also reports...
GRACE: Well, who? Who? At the hotel?
ZARRELL: At the hotel, yes. There are also reports, Nancy, that the baby was seen with the mother that same day at a Six Flags amusement park in San Antonio.
GRACE: OK, now, this is what`s disturbing to me, Matt Zarrell. She tells the bio dad that the baby is dead. And now everybody`s saying, Oh, she said that because she wanted him to sign the papers to give the baby away for adoption. One, was she getting any money for the adoption? And two, her report of how the baby was dead in a dumpster was pretty chilling.
ZARRELL: Yes, it was. Now, we don`t know of any financial terms as part of the adoption. But we do know that the mother told the father that the baby was dead, was blue-colored. She put it in a baby bag in a dumpster. Now, she said that she was leaving the United States, and when she left the country, she was going to tell the father where the body was.
GRACE: Look at her! To you, Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids. Marc, I can`t take it in. Have you seen this baby? Have you seen how beautiful it is? Can you imagine her holed up in some motel on Christmas Day and then lying about the baby being dead?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, the baby looks like the Gerber baby, doesn`t it. I mean, really, it`s the quintessential little American child.
You know, she wasn`t interested in keeping the baby safe, she was interested in extracting some kind of retribution on the bio dad. If the baby is alive, what she did is one of the cruelest and most manipulative moves that one could imagine, telling him that his child is dead. If the baby`s alive, she needs to come forth and let the authorities know where the baby is so that they can put this case to rest.
GRACE: All I can say...
KLAAS: The father deserves it, and certainly, the baby deserves it.
GRACE: ... Florida police, keep Mommy in lockup!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A smile on his face all the time, always moving around, doing stuff. He loves to play.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Logan McQueary`s 8-month-old son, Gabriel, has been missing since last month, when his mother, Elizabeth Johnson, didn`t show up for a custodial court hearing. McQueary was awarded custody of Gabriel, but the baby and mom vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s what we know concerning this case. The 8- month-old`s mother, Elizabeth Johnson, is from Tempe, Arizona. And cops say she took off with the little guy to San Antonio, Texas. That`s where little Gabriel was last seen with his mom a day after Christmas. The next day, Gabriel`s father, Logan McQueary, told cops Mom sent him text messages saying the little baby was dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What Logan says is that he received a text message from her that said that the baby was dead. And he says that he spoke to Elizabeth and she said, allegedly, something to the effect that she had smothered the child, put him in a diaper bag and put him in the dumpster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnson was arrested in Miami Beach, Florida, on Saturday, but won`t tell police where her baby is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, Elizabeth Johnson has not provided us any information on even Gabriel`s condition, much less his whereabouts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last time I saw him was the 8th of December. I gave him a kiss and put him in his bed and (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You miss him, obviously.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was her relationship with the baby? What kind of mother was she that would make her do this? I mean (INAUDIBLE) you must have some insight as to what may have possessed her to do this. Any thoughts on (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really. It`s just always been up and down with her. I don`t know really what makes her tick and makes her go off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she happy when the baby was born?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was happy at the time, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go to the calls live. Everybody, the tip line, 480-350- 8311. Please, please, help us find this baby boy. Many people believe he is still alive.
Out to the lines. Melody, Ohio. Hi, Melody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question being, is it known if she was ever diagnosed with a mental illness or issues of drug abuse? And does she have a prior criminal history?
GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Mike Sakal, joining us from "The East Valley Tribune"? What do we know about this mom?
SAKAL: We do know that according to police records, back in July, she did have a criminal damage charge, which she is in a diversion program for. Her and Mr. McQueary had an argument at the apartment they shared, and he told police that she had torn some things up. And evidently, she was the one facing charges and now in a diversion program. We don`t know the details of that diversion program or what she has to do to complete it to get those expunged.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Let me get this straight. The only criminal record she`s got is a criminal damage to property. And it`s my understanding that that was when she got mad at the boyfriend for working late and she tore up his clothes, she ripped things up in the apartment, she slashed furniture, including some of the baby furniture. Is that the incident you`re talking about, Mike Sakal?
SAKAL: Apparently, there are two incidents that happened...
GRACE: Yes, very similar.
SAKAL: One was -- two apartments -- two incidents involving apartments. And according to court documents, she had hitting (ph) this child one other time and had it at a friend`s house and accused Logan of taking or hiding the child, but according...
GRACE: When really, she had taken it and given it and had (ph) somebody else. She even told police that the boyfriend had taken the baby, when it was her that took the baby.
You know, let`s unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred -- you all know Gloria Allred, attorney, victims` rights advocate out of LA -- renowned defense attorney, Atlanta jurisdiction, Raymond Giudice and defense attorney well known in his jurisdiction, Christopher Amolsch, joining us out of D.C. Welcome gentlemen and lady.
SAKAL: Gloria, I pray to God that this baby is still alive. But even if the baby is still alive, I don`t like the way this mom is using the baby.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: It`s cruel, Nancy, and there`s no other way to describe it, because if she is telling this father that this baby is no longer alive, whether it`s true or false, that`s a terrible way to tell a father anything about his own son. To text it or even to e-mail it is cruel. And she`s playing games, obviously, doesn`t want the father to have any contact with this child. But she`s got to deal with it in a dignified matter. This is not it.
GRACE: Well, "dignified" is way, way -- that horse is out of the barn, Gloria Allred. What about it, Ray Giudice?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I was representing her, I would beg her to give me every piece of information that would lead to the safe and speedy return of the child. We`ll deal with criminal charges later.
GRACE: Christopher Amolsch, she`s not going to tell police anything. She`s lying through her teeth.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, she`s going to do whatever it takes, she thinks, to keep her baby safe from that guy.
GRACE: BS, Amolsch!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was that like to find out that she had left with the baby?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you had any custody issues happen in the past leading up to this (INAUDIBLE) out of the blue?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve always had, you know, kind of bickering and fighting a little bit, arguing here, arguing there. But we lived together the whole time, lived together for the past two years. And you know, this was just kind of out of the blue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A gorgeous young mom in her 20s takes off on a road trip almost a thousand miles over Christmas holidays in her grandfather`s car. And with her, she takes along her 8- month-old baby boy, baby Gabriel. Along the way, she calls the dad a couple of times to say, You`ll never see the baby again. I`ve killed the baby. All along, apparently, she`s trying to adopt the baby out, possibly for money. Now, this adoptive -- this prospective adoptive couple hears the baby in the background after she tells Daddy the baby`s dead. She`s now telling that same couple she gave the baby away to a couple she met at a public park that seemed like nice people. OK.
SAKAL: To Paul Penzone, director of prevention programs, Childhelp.org, former sergeant, Phoenix PD. Paul, what do you think?
PAUL PENZONE, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. POLICE SGT.: I`m appalled by so many different things because there`s a lot of working parts in this case, but only one that matters...
GRACE: Wait a minute.
PENZONE: ... and that`s that child`s safety.
GRACE: Wait a minute, you`re appalled. That`s your comment? We`re all appalled, Paul. Help me. Help me.
PENZONE: Let`s break this down. That child`s safety is most important, getting him back safely. The mom was not concerned with the child`s safety. If she was, she would have focused on being a better mom and ensuring her rights to custody, not control. She`s worried about control over that child, and it`s about spiting the father.
SAKAL: The other family who claims to be adoptive parents, they`re trying to get involved in this, that is a personal agenda. That child has its own rights. There`s a process in place. If it`s deemed that father is not appropriate, then go through the proper resources. But to almost commit extortion while trying to get custody of this child under dire circumstances -- there are so many factors that are distracting from getting the child home safely.
GRACE: And Marc Klaas, we can`t ignore that when she tore up the apartment and ripped up the baby furniture, the baby was home, Marc.
KLAAS: And it was. And she was also tearing up baby clothing, I think. This is a pretty destructive woman, and as has been said so many times, she`s very manipulative. She`s got the Smith family, prospective adopters, on her side. She`s got everybody befuddled. It`s got to come clean. She`s got to tell people where this child is, one way or the other.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you ever agree with her that adoption was the best option?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I mean tell me about how that came to be, because apparently she`s been pressing this pretty hard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She basically didn`t want me to have him and wanted to put him up for adoption. Better life. That`s what she kept saying.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How long has that been going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hadn`t talked about it at all.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So you just found out about this recently?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had talked about it right after Gabriel was born. A little bit. Said if we can`t give him a good life, we`d talk about it down the road. And then all of a sudden, it was just a big surprise for me. She just wanted me to sign adoption papers. I said no.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a threat against Gabriel.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And what was that specific threat? What would she say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`d put in the text I killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That she killed him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Past tense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I killed him. That`s what she said.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When did this come -- when did she come forward about this adoption stuff? And when did she give you the papers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t give me any papers.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just -- I was at work one day and she called me on the phone. Said, you need to sign these papers. And I said, what papers? And she said, I already gave them to the people that are going to adopt him. And that was the day after we`d broken up. And.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When was that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 9th of December.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you tell me about why you guys broke up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just different problems between us.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Since Gabriel`s been missing, what do those adoptive -- potential adoptive parents say to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They basically have asked me to sign the paperwork, too. And they keep wanting me to sign the paperwork. When Gabriel disappeared, they said basically, you know, if you really care about your son and you want him back and you want him to bring her back -- or Elizabeth to bring him back that you`ll sign the paperwork and then she`ll bring him back. Tell us and you`ll know he`s safe. And I said no, I`m not signing any paperwork.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you feel like you`re being extorted? (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who were these potential adoptive parents? (INAUDIBLE) you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone that she had met, yes.
First off, I`d just like to thank everybody for all their help and everybody that`s been out there looking for him. Just really appreciate it and want to find him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Out to the line, Sheeba in Illinois. Happy new year, Sheeba.
SHEEBA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Oh, happy new year and merry Christmas to you and your terrible 2`s now.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Oh, they`re terrific 2`s, let me tell you. Those twins -- I`ve been up with them since 4:36 a.m. I looked at the digital clock when I heard Lucy go, "wah." This is what I don`t get. Eight months old, Sheeba.
SHEEBA: I just imagined you on Christmas morning.
GRACE: They didn`t really get it, although they both know how to say "Baby Jesus." I don`t know if they get who that is. But at 8 months old, I wouldn`t even take the twins out and about. Maybe I was too protective. But taking an 8-month-old on a 1,000-mile road trip at least, and now lying about where the baby is.
What do you think, Sheeba?
SHEEBA: OK, she did -- I pray to God, I`m like Gloria, that this baby is alive. But my gut feeling tells me he may not be. She may have carried through on one of her threats. And she didn`t -- if he`s alive, she just didn`t give this baby away. There`s -- you know, follow the money.
GRACE: Well, she was in a youth hostel. So, Matt Zarrell, I don`t no that she had any money.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, from court documents, we learned she did not have a job at this point, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers. Gloria Allred, L.A., Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, Christopher Amolsch, Washington, D.C.
Gloria, you take a lot of high-profile cases. I`m not even going to say the words "Tiger Woods" because I know you won`t comment on it. But not just cases like that. You`ve had a lot of cases regarding victims` rights.
What I want to know is, if you were representing this girl, what would you tell her to do? I think it would be difficult, because you`d be torn about the baby`s best interest and legally her interests.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, that`s true, Nancy. You point out that there may be a conflict at this point, because at this point, she`s charged with a crime. So it may be in her interest not to say anything, not to say anything that might tend to incriminate herself.
On the other hand, it`s definitely in the baby`s best interest for law enforcement to know where that baby is. Because that baby, if alive, may be at risk of harm and if not alive, law enforcement and the dad needs to know where that baby is.
GRACE: Raymond Giudice, could you see a defense attorney working a deal where she would get more lenient treatment if she would just divulge what happened to the baby?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It goes back to what I said earlier. I would implore her, if the child was alive, to give me that information, let me take that to law enforcement, so it`s not given to them in the form of a confession or a statement.
It`s a proffer by the lawyer. I would try to walk that fine-conflict line that Gloria correctly points out.
GRACE: Hey, take a look at her Amolsch. Liz, can you rerun her talking to the judge? In court? Now I don`t believe she`s fighting extradition back to Tempe, Arizona. But take a look at where she speaks.
This lady does not have a mental problem. She`s absolutely coherent. She sees what`s going on around her. She is answering his questions quickly and concisely. Look at this. So forget about some mental defense, Christopher Amolsch.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, she doesn`t have a mental defect. The problem is how misguided she is. She thinks that what she`s doing is keeping her baby safe. And it`s crazy, but that`s what she`s doing. So the idea that you can make a deal with her.
GRACE: Yes, OK.
AMOLSCH: You can make a deal with her to give up where the baby is. She has gone to extreme lengths to make sure that nobody knows where that kid because she thinks.
GRACE: Amolsch. Amolsch.
AMOLSCH: . the kid`s better off.
GRACE: Put him up, put him up. Put -- Amolsch. OK, you`re not really defending the woman, so you can be honest.
AMOLSCH: I`m being honest with you.
GRACE: OK? Quit pretending this woman is trying to protect her baby. Why are you saying that?
AMOLSCH: However irrational it is, people get crazy when they think their baby is in danger. She`s been trying to give this baby away.
GRACE: In danger?
AMOLSCH: . to better parents.
GRACE: From who?
AMOLSCH: From the father. The reasons she`s not telling you anything about where the car is or where the baby is, because she thinks the kid is better off away from his father and she would rather sit in jail probably for the rest of her life than give up the -- than give up the whereabouts of the kid.
GRACE: You know what? Don`t bring a knife when you come to a gunfight, Amolsch, because that is not going to work.
Out to you, Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist, author of "Love Prescription." Weigh in, Jeff.
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": I think what is going on here, this is not about the child for this mother because evidently she has no regard for the child.
This is about long-standing issues that she`s had with the father of the child, acting out, completely inappropriately, perhaps a personality disorder. But this is really about these two fighting and the child is collateral damage.
GRACE: To Dr. Evelyn Minaya, women`s health expert and a child expert, joining us out of New York.
Doctor, thank you for being with us.
DR. EVELYN MINAYA, M.D., WOMEN`S HEALTH EXPERT: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: What does this baby face? I mean I know Lucy and John David were extremely premature.
MINAYA: Right.
GRACE: And they got really sick -- I was up during the night with them every three hours doing Nebulizer treatments so they could breathe.
MINAYA: Right.
GRACE: Very, very delicate and in fragile health. What problems could this child face, just 8 months old?
MINAYA: Eight months old. First of all, he can`t obviously feed himself. OK. And we`re talking about the obvious things. You know, the feeding, and also dehydration. Remember, the little person out there is crying probably his eyes out, probably in a wet diaper, infection. We`re talking about dehydration.
We`re talking about just no care whatsoever, which is, you`re know, unfathomable to me because I`m also a parent as well. And I hear you, Nancy. You know? When you`re up with your child, with Nebulizing treatments. You know how cold it is out there, just even plain exposure.
She can`t take care of the baby when the baby is with her, let alone when the baby is not with her. So I think it`s just such a shame because this baby is really in danger of such severe dehydration. And just hunger and also infection. It`s just unfathomable.
GRACE: And, you know, Doctor, I didn`t know what I was doing when I first came home from the hospital with the twins. I was on the phone with mothers, experts, doctors, all the time.
Who knows who has this baby? If they know what to do with a baby?
MINAYA: Right, right, and it`s really on-the-job training. And you also have to have some kind of attachment to your child, and that`s what makes you learn even more and also makes you bond with that baby so you can be safer with that baby also. I know. I`ve done over 3,000 deliveries. And believe you me, I still needed on-the-job training.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is it your intention to raise Gabriel when you find him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have (INAUDIBLE) with him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you thought about that moment when you finally see Gabriel? What is the first thing you want to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give him a big hug and kiss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Those adoptive parents in news reports today have said some pretty bad things about you. Including you were going to give Gabriel to your sister and that -- brought up your criminal history. Was any of it not true? And what do you want to say to those reports?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I screwed up in the past. And pretty much I`ve been working my hardest to, you know, get back on track and I have been. The only thing I`m doing is, you know, staying out of trouble and then going to work, stuff like that.
I was right next to Gabriel and Elizabeth the whole time while we were, you know, living together, and taking care of them, working my hardest.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When was the last time you saw your son? (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last time I saw them was the 8th of December. She wanted me out of the house. And we talked and split up. And I gave him a kiss and put him in his bed. Last time I saw him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sarah, North Carolina. Hi, Sarah.
SARAH, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Good evening, Nancy. I`ve been trying for a long time to get through to you. I love your show.
GRACE: Well, I want to thank you for watching and for calling. What do you think about this story?
SARAH: I am sick. My gut is busted out of me. I lost a daughter 41 years ago through domestic violence. And people that wants children has problems and little trash that`s like this that has children does not want the children, neglect them, abuses them and everything else.
Why can`t they find the person or the couple that supposedly she was going to let adopt this child? If I was.
GRACE: We`ve got them. Sarah, we`ve got the couple that was going to adopt the child. They even had the guardianship papers, everything, drawn up. They needed the father to sign it.
What we don`t know, Sarah, North Carolina, is who the couple, as she claims, she finally gave the baby to at some park.
SARAH: Well, I would go back to that campground or wherever. I would tear that place upside down.
GRACE: Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sarah, Sarah, hold on, you`re going to want to hear this.
To Matt Zarrell, we`ve got some breaking news on the story right now. Go ahead, Matt.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, Matt doesn`t know it. I`m just hearing it in my ear right now, Matt. We are hearing that the car has been found, according to the FBI, in San Antonio, Texas. What else can you tell me, Ellie?
At about 7:00 p.m. Texas time, at a local Motel 6. San Antonio, Texas. They are processing the vehicle right now.
Ellie, can you tell me anything else? FBI, San Antonio, the car has been found which means -- let`s go back over, Mike Sakal. Which means she leaves San Antonio, leaving her grandfather`s car behind, and makes it all the way to Miami Beach, Florida, without the vehicle.
Now think about it. Think about it, Mike Sakal, does that mean she traveled without any baby supplies, with nothing? Or was she without that baby when she left San Antonio, Texas? Mike?
MIKE SAKAL: Authorities haven`t told us -- and they simply said they don`t know how she got to Florida or why she even went that direction.
GRACE: I want to go to you, Marc Klaas. Hearing this new update we`re just getting. What do you make of it?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, we have to figure out how she got to Florida. Did she hitchhike? Did she take a Greyhound bus? If it was public transportation, there might be some kind of videotape record of whether or not she was by herself or with the little baby.
If she hitchhiked, maybe somebody who picked her up along the way can provide that information.
GRACE: That`s a good point.
KLAAS: Was she alone or was she with the baby?
GRACE: Everybody, we got a new tip line. I believe I`m hearing 210- 225-6741. And just the last minutes, as we go to air, police have found the vehicle. She was last seen with the baby in. San Antonio, Texas, at a local motel 6.
The car`s being processed right now. For some reason, she wouldn`t tell police where she left the car. She would not tell police where she handed over the baby.
I want to go back to you, again, Marc Klaas. What`s your advice right now?
KLAAS: Well, my advice would be for the authorities within that community of San Antonio, and they`re very good at this -- I know that, having worked there in the past -- to basically get information out. Do what you`re doing on your show tonight. Get information out to the entire community. Maybe somebody knows something.
She was on foot. She left the car there. Who knows how far away from that location the baby was disposed of, whatever that happens to mean. But I think we can`t -- we can`t rush to judgment on the father. He seems like the one guy here who seems to have the baby`s interest at heart.
GRACE: I don`t have a problem with the father.
KLAAS: No, I know nobody has.
GRACE: I don`t have any problem with the father, at all.
KLAAS: I know nobody has, but, you know, she has, and she`s -- also, she`s manipulated other people to go after him as well.
GRACE: I am not listening to one thing this woman has said. Everything she said has been a lie so far.
KLAAS: Right. Right.
GRACE: So if she says one thing, I believe the opposite as it stands right now. And another issue, to Matt Zarrell, is there any suggestion that in the past she has abused this child in any way?
ZARRELL: Yes, there have been reports that she had made threats against this child before. That she threatened to harm the baby. She`s treated the baby poorly. There was reportedly a CPS investigation that`s currently under way for child neglect. But we don`t know the specifics because CPS won`t comment.
GRACE: When you say, "treat the baby poorly," what do you mean by that?
ZARRELL: Well, the father claims in court couples that the father would leave the baby in his room and would go off to work. The baby was crying and needed a diaper change. Father would come home from work. The baby was still in the same spot, diaper wasn`t changed. Baby was still crying hysterically.
GRACE: To Dr. Evelyn Minaya, do you know what that does to a baby? I mean a lot of people don`t know a thing. Oh, you didn`t change his diaper. A child can get almost raw on its behind and its genitals and down its legs -- bleed, bleed from diaper rash when you let feces or urine just sit on the human skin and they tee-tee and poop over and over into the diaper and they just sit there. They`re in pain. They`re in anguish.
MINAYA: It`s just like an elderly person that you leave with a bed sore. I mean they are in extreme pain. And like you said, Nancy, so correctly, it also raised the skin and the skin can actually come off and has welts and things like that.
This poor baby suffered that way and that`s unacceptable in any shape, way or form. And, and going back to what the pediatrician can also find when they examine the baby is also old bruises. And you can also see that if the kid has had diaper rash, you also question the mom. Well, has this baby been neglected? So -- and that`s a very important piece of evidence also against this woman as well.
GRACE: I`m just sick about it. Everyone, a car being processed right now, the vehicle this baby was last seen in, San Antonio, Texas. Tip line 210-225-6741. Please, please help us find baby Gabriel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is it your intention to raise Gabriel when you find him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have (INAUDIBLE) with him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you thought about that moment when you finally see Gabriel? What is the first thing you want to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give him a big hug and kiss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just in from the FBI there in San Antonio, Texas, the car last seen with the baby alive in it has just been found at a local Motel 6, San Antonio. That leaves all sorts of questions unanswered.
To Paul Benzone, what do you make of it? What it`s saying to me probatively, in other words, what does it prove, is that she traveled not in a car from San Antonio to Florida. It says to me she traveled without the baby.
PAUL BENZONE: You know, my heart sunk when I heard that and I`ll tell you why. My greatest fear is that why did she abandon that car? Is that baby in the car? And I pray that`s not the case. But that`s my first fear because there was a reason, either it was inoperable or there was a reason to leave it behind because it was going to incriminate her and be part of this whole thing.
So I hope it was inoperable and her choice was something other than that and the baby was left somewhere safe beforehand. But a lot of answers will come from that vehicle and we`re going to know in the real near future.
GRACE: OK. While I`ve got Ellie in New York -- Ellie, are you hearing anything else about what they may have found in the car? No? But the location of the hotel is one of the places she told the adoptive parents about is -- where the car might be.
Is that what you`re telling me, Ellie? OK. That suggests she at least was honest and if the child was in the car, why would she have told the adoptive parents that?
Everyone, it`s still a mystery. The tip line right now, 210-225-6741. We will update you on the missing mom tomorrow night.
Let`s keep in our prayers baby Gabriel.
Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Bradley King, 28, LaFontaine, Indiana, killed Iraq. From a family of military vets. Enlisted to make other`s lives better. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service medial.
Put others first. Volunteered after Hurricane Katrina (INAUDIBLE) across Indiana. Loved motorcycles, playing football, time with family. Leaves behind parents, Paula and Wayne, four brothers, one sister, widow Adrienne and son Dayton.
Bradley King, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special thank you to Georgia friend of the show, author Loretta Hannan, for this copy, "The Crackle Point," she sent me. It`s a bestseller. Thank you for sending it.
Everyone, as we go to break, let`s keep baby Gabriel in our prayers. Tip line 210-225-6741. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
