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Nancy Grace
Missing 8-Month-Old`s Mother Charged
Aired January 11, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car for a 978- mile road trip with this beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. She ends up spending Christmas holed up in a local motel alone, San Antonio, Texas, along the way calling the 25-year-old biological father, threatening -- threatening -- he`d never see the baby again, even telling bio dad baby Gabriel is dead.
Turns out Mommy was trying to give the baby away the whole time to an Arizona couple. Mommy alone, no baby Gabriel, hops a bus headed to Florida, December 27th, the day after the last credible sighting of baby Gabriel alive, her car abandoned. December 30th, Mommy`s located Miami Beach, minus the baby. Finally, car recovered, San Antonio Motel 6, baby`s carseat still inside. When pressed, Mommy says she gives the baby away to a couple she bumps into at a public park, Texas.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Mommy hauled back to Arizona, in court, where prosecutors lay out the gut-wrenching scenario that Mommy kills baby Gabriel, conceals his tiny body in a diaper bag and throws this beautiful baby boy into a dumpster like he`s trash. Tonight, Mommy charges with felony kidnap, child abuse and interference with custody, but why not murder? Why? Is there hope baby Gabriel is alive?
Would the adoptive parents, now named persons of interest in Gabriel`s disappearance, voluntarily take polygraphs? Results, inconclusive. And we learn Mommy refusing to help create a composite sketch of the couple she says took the baby. Then she gets an attitude with the judge. Not a good look, Mommy!
As we go to air, tips lead investigators to Nashville, Tennessee. Tonight, can we save the baby with the angel face, baby Gabriel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you state your name and date of birth?
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, GABRIEL`S MOTHER: Elizabeth Johnson, 7/24/86.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Arizona mother of -- at the center of the baby Gabriel missing boy case is now in jail in Maricopa, Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve arrested on a direct complaint warrant alleging custodial interference, a class 4 felony. You`ve also been arrested on new charges alleging child abuse, a class 2 felony, and one count of kidnapping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson`s being held on a cash-only $1.1 million bond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything she`s saying is completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s another new development today as local affiliates report when Johnson filed for custody of Gabriel, she said Logan McQueary might not be the father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a woman who changes her story the way the wind blows.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH, HOPED TO ADOPT GABRIEL: She didn`t want Logan to have the baby, and we couldn`t adopt the baby because Logan wouldn`t sign the papers. So her idea was to just keep running forever.
LOGAN MCQUEARY, GABRIEL`S FATHER: We`ve always had -- you know, kind of bickered and fighting a little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are a lot of contradictions.
MCQUEARY: She basically didn`t want me to have him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s playing games, obviously doesn`t want the father to have any contact with his child.
JOHNSON: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?
JOHNSON: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) appointed a lawyer now. We`re going to give you instructions on how to contact your lawyer. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Mommy hauled back to Arizona, in court, where prosecutors lay out the gut-wrenching scenario that Mommy kills baby Gabriel, conceals his tiny body in a diaper bag and then throws the beautiful baby boy into a dumpster like he`s trash. Mommy charged with felony kidnap, child abuse and interfering with custody. Why not murder? Is there hope baby Gabriel is alive?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Missing baby Gabriel`s mom has been moved to an Arizona jail now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 23-year-old is being held on a cash-only $1.1 million bond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told him that she put him in a diaper bag and threw him in a dumpster. To this date, Gabriel has not been found. The search for him is still on. The defendant is the only person who knows where Gabriel is, if he`s dead or alive, and she refuses to cooperate and tell anyone where Gabriel is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pretty destructive woman. And she`s -- as it`s been said so many times, she`s very manipulative.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything you want to ask me or tell me?
JOHNSON: Ask you -- I don`t really know what to say. But everything is so false, from the claim (ph) to everything (INAUDIBLE) so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
JOHNSON: I don`t know what else to say but that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s prepared to stick to her story and stay in jail as long as is necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there`s another new development here today. Johnson asked the court to force McQueary and another man to take paternity tests.
MCQUEARY: It`s just always been up and down with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s take a look at Elizabeth. Now, she lies a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything she said has been completely unreliable.
GRACE: Tell me why you believe that baby is alive. What do you know that makes you believe the baby is alive, Mr. Smith?
JACK SMITH, HOPED TO ADOPT GABRIEL: You know, it`s just -- it`s just -- it`s just a heart thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I have appointed the public defender to represent you. I noted you shaking your head and disagreeing with the comments...
JOHNSON: Yes, everything she`s saying is completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do not interrupt. I noted that you were disagreeing by (INAUDIBLE) by shaking your head back and forth with comments made by the county attorney at various times during her statement. While I recognize you may have a different view of what was said...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio. Michael Board, she`s been hauled back to Arizona, in court in the last hours. What happened?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via telephone): Well, Nancy, we`ve talked a lot about doom and gloom on this show today, signs that, you know, maybe baby Gabriel was murdered by this woman.
But here`s some other news that has not been reported widely so far today. It was announced today that when Elizabeth Johnson was found in Miami, she had $500 cash on her. And the commander who`s in charge of this investigation admitted that she should have run out of money a long time ago. This is an unemployed woman who was caring for an 8-month-old child, who drove all the way from Arizona to San Antonio, bought a bus ticket.
They said when she was in that Miami youth hostel where she was caught, she had gone shopping. There was clothes. She`s gotten her nails done. That`s a sign that she got money. Where did she get that money from? This is signs that`s opening the possibility...
GRACE: She went...
BOARD: ... that possibly she did sell her child.
GRACE: ... shopping and got her nails done when her child...
BOARD: Where did she get the money?
GRACE: ... was off with someone, according to her, she`s never met a day in her life?
BOARD: Where did she get the money?
GRACE: What is wrong with her, Janet Taylor? You`re the shrink.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I mean, you look at her background, she had a chaotic life, dysfunctional family. She sounds like borderline personality disorder to me, which...
GRACE: Blah, blah! Personality disorder. That`s not an illness! That`s not -- that`s not insanity!
TAYLOR: Well, it is in the sense that it can account for her lack of -- I`m not saying she`s insane. I think she completely knows what she`s doing, but it could account for her lack of attachment to this beautiful 8- month-old.
GRACE: Back to Michael Board. What else can you tell me, Michael?
BOARD: You know, you have to track the money. How did she get the money there? It is signs possibly she did sell that child. That is something -- it`s a possibility. It`s something that police are looking into. And it`s a definite sign as to why Jack and Tammi Smith might be persons of interest. Maybe they might know who she might have sold this child to. You have to bring up those questions in this type of investigation.
GRACE: OK, I want to go to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. Matt, isn`t it true -- by all appearances, she had this trip, this road trip planned for some time because she sold her pets. She got several hundred dollars out of that. Then she got a roommate. She got 400 or 500 bucks from him or her, whoever that was, and took off. She was using her grandfather`s car. So what expenses did she have?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that`s what`s interesting is that cops are still trying to figure out where all the money went. She only had less than $500 with her. They thought she had well over $1,000 when she started the trip, based on all the saving up. So where did that money go? We`re still trying to find out.
GRACE: And she was staying at a youth hostel. That costs practically nothing, right, Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: So where did all the money go? "All the money" is only about a thousand bucks. So she stayed at several motels, including the Motel 6. She needed gas money to get from Tempe to San Antonio that we know of, had to buy a ticket, about 150 bucks one way to Florida. Long story short, it works out fine. I don`t think that just because you have $500, that indicates to me that she sold the baby. It does not indicate to me that she sold the baby.
We are taking your calls live. To Maria in Michigan. Hi, Maria.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my phone call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last week, I heard that the worker of a hotel saw her leaving with a large backpack. Have they explored the possibility of the baby being in that backpack, or have they checked for DNA?
GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Matt Zarrell? Was there a backpack? Did an employee see her leaving with a backpack?
ZARRELL: Yes, the employee did see her. And what we know, Nancy, is that when she was arrested in Florida, we know there was no sign of the baby. We have not heard reports about the backpack, though. We don`t know if she stashed it somewhere or if she had it with her when she was arrested.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Gloria Allred, attorney, victims` rights advocate, joining us out of LA, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, renowned in his jurisdiction of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile attorney out of the Seattle jurisdiction. And also with us tonight, crime analyst, director of the cold case squad, Pine Lake PD, Sheryl McCollum.
First to you, Gloria Allred. Weigh in.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, of course, this is a person -- this is a young woman who`s told a lot of different stories and conflicting stories. So she`s got a major credibility problem. From her point of view, she`s smart not to be talking right now. Of course, Nancy, from the baby`s point of view, that`s a very, very bad thing.
GRACE: And then, Bremner, she cops an attitude in front of the judge. The judge had to say, Don`t interrupt me. All she cares about is, Where`s my lawyer? She doesn`t give a flying fig about, Where`s my baby? Did she ever say, Where`s my baby? No, she didn`t. She said, Where`s my lawyer, judge?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the judge says, You can have a lawyer, and then she also was shaking her head, saying, No, no, no, about what the prosecution was saying. And so all she was trying to do was jump in when he said, You`re disagreeing with what the prosecutor says. Then he says, Don`t interrupt me. So she`s maintaining her innocence. She`s entitled to a lawyer. And she at least cares about all of that right now, and she should. That`s what she`s entitled to.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, if she wants to interrupt and interject so much, why doesn`t she tell the cops the whole story and help with the composite sketch? What about that, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, obviously, she, you know, is protecting herself at this point. But I want to say something, Nancy. I don`t think the police or the prosecutor or anybody believes that child is dead, for the very question that you asked before. Why isn`t she charged with murder?
GRACE: Why isn`t she charged with murder?
SANCHEZ: If she -- if they thought...
GRACE: You`re right, Alex Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: ... she murdered her -- and she made confessions and the child was missing, they would have charged her.
GRACE: But wait a minute.
SANCHEZ: The fact that they didn`t is very revealing.
GRACE: Don`t you need a little thing called -- let`s see, what is it, Sheryl -- oh, evidence?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: Right.
GRACE: What about it, McCollum? You cannot, under the law of our country, prosecute an individual based on their confession alone. You got to corroborate it.
MCCOLLUM: Nancy, they`re going to wait until they recover a body or this child is found, until they add murder. There`s no reason to get in a hurry. Time is on their side. She`s not going anywhere.
GRACE: She`s on a million-dollar bail, people! She`s not going anywhere!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two huge developments in the frantic search for baby Gabriel Johnson. Police in Tempe, Arizona, say the 8-month-old is in extreme danger. Again, last seen with his mom, Elizabeth Johnson, late December. She`s behind bars, facing new serious charges, kidnapping, child abuse. Cops say she won`t tell them where baby is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To this date, Gabriel has not been found. The search for him is still on. The defendant is the only person who knows where Gabriel is, and if he`s dead or alive, and she refuses to cooperate and tell anyone where Gabriel is.
JOHNSON: I don`t know really know what to say, but everything is so false, from the claim (ph) to everything that she said is so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
JOHNSON: I don`t know what else to say but that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She allegedly told her ex-boyfriend she killed the child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, allegedly, something to the effect that she had smothered the child, put him in a diaper bag and put him in the dumpster.
MCQUEARY: She put in the text, I killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she killed him?
MCQUEARY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Past tense.
MCQUEARY: Yes, I killed him.
GRACE: Do you think, Tammi, that she is capable of killing this baby?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: You know, from what I know of her, I don`t believe so, but I`ve only known her maybe three or four weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Tonight, Mommy hauled back to Arizona just a few hours ago, in court before a judge, whom she interrupted repeatedly until he told her not to -- copped an attitude. Right now, she`s charged with felony kidnap, she`s charged with custodial interference and child abuse. She`s looking at that alone probably about 30 years. But interestingly, even after the prosecutor lays out a gut-wrenching scenario of how she may have killed baby Gabriel, she is not charged with murder.
Michael Board, what can you tell me about the facility she`s in? And does she have a lawyer yet?
BOARD: She is in the jail at Maricopa County, which is in Phoenix, Arizona. It`s a small cell. She`s by herself. She`s alone 23 hours of the day. She gets two meals a day. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Maricopa County, makes everyone there wear pink, so she`s wearing pink underwear. She`s eating bologna sandwiches for brunch each day. It`s not a very good environment and...
GRACE: Oh, really? Because did you know what she`s having for dinner? Barbecue ham, mashed potatoes, corn on the cob, mandarin oranges, dinner roll, margarine and a donut! I have lettuce, tomato and onion. So there you have it.
Joining me right now, two very special guests. I want to go straight out to them. They`re just joining us from Phoenix, Jack and Tammi Smith. They were the perspective adoptive couple that, in my mind, this woman led down the primrose path.
Jack Smith, Tammi Smith, thank you for being with us.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: Thank you.
GRACE: It speaks volumes that you`re willing to come on with us, take my questions, the panel`s questions, the viewers` questions. You took a polygraph voluntarily. You did not pass, you did not fail. Your polygraph was inconclusive. Jack Smith, why?
JACK SMITH: Well, they told us pretty much that that`s what would happen. We would either fail or we would -- that would happen because I guess they have to examine how the questions were asked and all that. But we did, however, get a call that a high-ranking official at the Tempe Police Department said to one of the reporters off to the side that it`s clear we have no idea where Gabriel is.
GRACE: What about it, Tammi?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: Same thing. I pretty much have the same thing as his comment. But I was also told by the examiner that every time that he said the word "Gabriel," he could tell that we had an emotional response to it and that that could possibly cause it to come out inconclusive, and which it did.
GRACE: Tammi, you guys have talked to Mommy, Elizabeth Johnson, 23 years old. You`ve talked to her. What is she saying?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: We only talked to her the one time in that conversation that was recorded with one of the news stations. And of course, you heard all of that. But I did just speak with the grandfather. And I was trying to get an interview tomorrow with one of the news stations to go there with me, and they said she`s not taking any interviews.
GRACE: Would she talk to you alone, though, Tammi?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: I don`t know if I want to talk to her alone.
JACK SMITH: I don`t think so.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: I don`t know if that`s a good idea. Unless if it`s being recorded, I don`t want to talk to her.
GRACE: Everybody, the Smiths taking your calls live.
But as we go to break, I want to remind you this is the one-year mark in the search for a missing 6-year-old Florida boy with so many disabilities, Adji Desir, last seen outside his grandma`s Immokalee home, vanishing without a trace. Volunteers, cops, canines conduct multiple searches, land air, water. Still no sign. He cannot explain what`s happening to him. He is non-verbal. If you have information, please, we haven`t given up. Call Collier County sheriff 239-252-9300.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you elect to cooperate and talk to people, that is up to you. But understand that anything you say in here is -- may be used against you. This is all being recorded. All that said, is there anything you want to ask me or tell me?
JOHNSON: Ask you -- I don`t really know what to say, but everything is so false, from the claim to everything that she said is so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
JOHNSON: I don`t know what else to say but that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Jack and Tammi Smith. Did you see that? Elizabeth Johnson, 23-year-old, says she just gave her baby away. Do you believe that, what she`s saying in court, it`s all false, false, false? What do you think, Tammi?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: We want to believe somebody has that baby. We -- Jack was extremely choked up, and we -- you guys are saying things about a diaper bag and stuff, and it`s -- we just don`t want to hear that! And we are trying to just pray and just ask God to not let us think what you`re saying is true and just to take that thought out of our minds because if -- you know, we need to stay positive with this so that we can help to find him. And if we`re negative, then that doesn`t help us try to find him.
GRACE: Tammi, can I tell you how much I and my staff cried when we heard what the prosecutor said? I just -- why are you afraid to go in and talk with her without the news media? What do you think would happen?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: I just -- I -- there`s so many ugly things being said about me, I don`t want someone thinking that there`s a secret there, you know? Just anybody to record it -- if a police officer can record it, that`s fine. I`ll go talk to her. It just needs to be recorded, you know?
GRACE: I see what you`re saying. I see exactly what you`re saying. Jack Smith, what type of questions did the cops ask you in the poly?
JACK SMITH: They asked us, did we have anything to do with his disappearance, the obvious questions, do we know where he`s at, so on, so forth.
GRACE: Well, you know, they say she`s got 500 bucks with her when the cops find her in a youth hostel, which is basically free, Miami Beach, Florida. Based on what I`ve learned from you guys and the expenses I`ve added up, that doesn`t seem to me like she sold the baby. I would think she`d have more money than that if she sold the baby. What do you think, Jack?
JACK SMITH: Well, that would make obvious sense. We had heard she had commented to someone else that she didn`t have enough money to come back to Arizona, but yet she still had enough money to have $500 and $200 for a ticket. So we don`t know what to believe. Our hands are...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There would be nothing that they could charge us with because we...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I have appointed the public defender to represent you. I noted you shaking your head and disagreeing with the comments.
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, MOTHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: Yes, everything she was saying was completely false.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do not interrupt. I noted that you were disagreeing by nodding -- or by shaking your head back and forth with comments made by the county attorney at various times during her statement.
While I recognize you may have a different view of what was said -- elect to cooperate and talk to people, that is up to you. But understand that anything you say in here is -- may be used against you. This is all being recorded. All that said, is there anything you want to ask me or tell me?
E. JOHNSON: Ask you -- I don`t really know what to say, but everything is so false from the claim to everything that she said was so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
E. JOHNSON: I don`t know what else to say but that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should you post these bonds, you are not to leave this jurisdiction. You`re not to have any contact with the father, and is there anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not from the state. Thank you, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you. Thank you, ma`am.
E. JOHNSON: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?
E. JOHNSON: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re appointed a lawyer now. We`re going to give you instructions on how to contact your lawyer.
E. JOHNSON: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
MATT LAUER, HOST, "TODAY" SHOW: Did she share anything with you about her whereabouts, who she was dealing with, who she was in contact with that you have not shared with police at this date?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: There`s nothing that she said that we have not shared with the police since day one. She never, ever gave any specific details. It was always, you know, whether it be a domestic violence shelter, the underground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You are hearing Tammi Smith on NBC`s "Today" show, talking about how she feels duped by baby Gabriel`s mother, Elizabeth Johnson.
We`re taking your calls live. Cindy, Ohio. Hi, Cindy.
CINDY, CALLER FRO OHIO: Hi, Nancy, thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
CINDY: Well, you know, I`ve been to airports a lot of times. And never once did I ever have the urge to go up and ask a parent who was having difficulty if they wanted to give their baby away.
But my question is, a couple nights ago they were -- the police were on their way to Nashville and the Smiths said that they had family there. Are the police keeping them under surveillance or watching to see if maybe one of them has the baby?
GRACE: Interesting. Matt Zarrell, the investigators have been led to Nashville, Tennessee. They`ve been knocking on doors. What`s happening?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes. They have received information that the possible sightings of Gabriel in the area. They`re all looking into it. They`re knocking on doors. They`re asking questions. They`re trying to get information out there.
They`re also looking to this connection with Tammi Smith. Apparently Tammi Smith got Elizabeth Johnson in touch with someone that lives in Nashville that knows adoptions and was also trying to convince Johnson to bring the baby home.
GRACE: So you`re saying Tammi Smith told her to bring the baby home, right?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: How do you know that?
ZARRELL: Well, Tammi has told us on numerous occasions that she wanted Elizabeth Johnson to bring the baby back and Elizabeth Johnson constantly refused. Calling the bio dad an ugly person, did not want to bring Gabriel into a custody fight.
GRACE: Speaking of custody. Unleash the lawyers, Anne, McCollum again, Gloria Allred -- all of this seems to be spurred by Elizabeth Johnson`s distaste for the biological father. It`s all about keeping the baby away from him. What about it, Gloria?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: I think that`s absolutely right, Nancy. And she had alleged in prior declarations or documents that she filed with the court in the child custody proceeding that the father had not supported the baby.
She also had alleged in the past that he might not be the father. And so that happened before today. And she obviously does not want him to have any involvement with the baby.
GRACE: What about it, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, that`s exactly why I don`t think anybody believes the child is actually dead. That this is really just a custody dispute. Now true, the woman if the she took the child that`s improper.
GRACE: Wait a minute.
SANCHEZ: She took the matters into her own hands.
GRACE: Put Sanchez back up. Sanchez, she`s willing to sit in the Maricopa County jail over a fight regarding custody? I don`t think so.
SANCHEZ: Yes, you know.
GRACE: It`s more than that, Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: As a matter of fact, that is her ace in the hole. She should get together with her lawyer, go to the police and the prosecutor and say, look, you drop charges or you reduce the charges and I`ll tell you where the child is. That`s the way this case should be resolved.
GRACE: Anne Bremner?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, I agree. And I think that -- I mean call me a mad cat but you do need evidence.
GRACE: You agree with what?
BREMNER: What -- the whole fact that she should come out and say, you know, this is a custody matter and it`s not criminal. She wanted a lawyer. That`s the last thing she said. And the fact is, there`s just no crime here in terms of this child. These things get very heated, very ugly. This may be one of the ugliest ones ever.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, Anne Bremner, how can you say that when you yourself have taken sides when one parent takes the baby away from the other parent?
BREMNER: Because every case.
GRACE: That`s a crime. That`s custodial interference.
BREMNER: Well, you bet it is. But the fact of the matter is custodial interference is different than kidnapping and murder. And she wasn`t.
GRACE: It`s still a crime.
BREMNER: And -- I`m sorry, what, Nancy?
GRACE: It`s still a crime.
BREMNER: Yes, but it`s a lesser crime. And in fact she was not.
GRACE: So?
BREMNER: . even aware of the order, potentially.
GRACE: That`s not (INAUDIBLE).
BREMNER: Potentially yes. Kidnapping, homicide, you bet you, Nancy.
GRACE: No homicide charge yet. But of course, it`s a lesser offense but it`s still a felony. What about it, McCollum?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: Nobody innocent has that baby. You`re talking about a woman that ditched her car and bought a one-way ticket. That is fleeing. Period.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Belinda, Indiana. Hi, Belinda. I think I`ve got Belinda with me. Are you there, dear?
TAMMY, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Hello?
GRACE: Lost her. Tammy, Massachusetts.
TAMMY: Hi, Nancy. I don`t know how you do this every night and go home to the twins. You just.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: For one thing, right here beside me I`ve got a nanny cam and can see every single thing that`s going on at that house this very minute. This minute.
TAMMY: Thank God.
GRACE: I don`t think I could stand it if I.
TAMMY: . insight to this type of stuff happening and so people, the public can be aware of what`s happening and keep their eyes open and watch what`s going on at airports or bus stops and things like that. Maybe they can find this baby. But one thing I was wondering is did she have a GPS in her car or is anyone aware of -- that she had a GPS?
GRACE: Good question. Good question. What about it, Michael Board? What do we know? I want to hear the answer to that if you`ve got it and where are they getting the fact about the diaper bag? That`s a very detailed fact that they had to get from somewhere. What about it, Board?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via phone): Well, the answer to the question about the car is the only thing we know that was found in the car was the car seat, which is very surprising. Why if you`re giving a child away would you not give a car seat away as well?
It was very strange that they found the car seat.
GRACE: Yes.
BOARD: Still in the car. As far as the GPS, we don`t know if that GPS was in the car or not. If that was, I`m sure.
GRACE: Diaper bag.
BOARD: . it`s under investigation right now with the police.
GRACE: Diaper bag, what do you know about the fact that they said in court she kills the baby, conceals the body in a diaper bag, throws the baby in the trash? What do you know?
BOARD: I believe that was something that was involved in the conversation between Elizabeth Johnson and Logan McQueary.
GRACE: Oh man!
BOARD: I believe that she told him that she put the baby in the diaper bag and tossed it in a dumpster.
GRACE: How do you even say that?
BOARD: And then will tell him the location when she left the country.
GRACE: How do you even say those words about killing your own child? What kind of mind could do that?
To Dr. Jennifer Shu, pediatrician, editor of "Baby and Child Help." Dr. Shu, if this child -- I can remember when John David and Lucy finally came home from the hospital. Lucy weighed 2 pounds at birth. The dedication you`ve got to have to take care of a little baby properly is a very, very serious issue.
To just give the baby away to somebody you meet at the park, what dangers is the baby facing?
DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, CO-AUTHOR OF "HEADING HOME W/YOUR NEWBORN": Well, clearly she`s got -- she`s not working in her right mind. And so the baby I would worry not being taken care of. The baby could be hypothermic, could be dehydrated, could be suffocated if it was stuffed in some kind of bag.
I mean that would have to be a pretty big diaper bag. The baby is 20 pounds and 2 feet long. So that`s pretty large. So I do worry about that baby being in serious danger.
GRACE: Jack Smith, Tammi Smith. First to you, Tammi, do you have any information about the GPS in the car?
T. SMITH: I don`t know if they`ve recovered it, but I know that she definitely had it, because when I dropped the baby off to her at that church it was dark outside. She had the GPS on the windshield lit up.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. The tip line for baby Gabriel. 1-800-the-lost. 1-800-THE-LOST, 1-800-843-5678.
We`ll be right back, but as we go to break, happy birthday to California friend, Emma. She`s a Victorian literature fiend and she never, ever misses our show.
Emma, happy birthday, friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOGAN JOHNSON, FATHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: She wanted me out of the house, depart and split up. Gave him a kiss and (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T. SMITH: There would be nothing that they can charge us with because we have done nothing. We`ve done everything that the police have asked us.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Arizona police say a police who wanted to adopt Gabriel Johnson are now persons of interest in his disappearance.
Jack and Tammi Smith admit they met Gabriel`s mother but say they don`t know where Gabriel is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have some good indications at this point with our investigation that Tammi and Jack Smith do know more information than they have provided to us that could possibly lead us to Gabriel.
GRACE: Tell me why you believe that baby is alive? What do you know that makes you believe the baby is alive, Mr. Smith?
JACK SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: You know, it`s just a heart thing, and I`m sorry that that`s probably not the answer that everybody is wanting to hear.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elizabeth Johnson who allegedly first claims she killed her child now said she gave him away in San Antonio.
J. SMITH: She said that she met a couple in the park.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, if that were to be true the x-factor is, was that family from San Antonio? Were they even from Texas? Were they from another state? We don`t know.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": I just can`t believe that she went down there and just miraculously found two people in a park to dump the baby on.
BOB JOHNSON, GABRIEL`S GREAT GRANDFATHER: It`s just almost on the border of unbelievable that a person would do that with an 8-month-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything she`s said has been completely unreliable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has been barely cooperating.
T. SMITH: She didn`t want Logan to have the baby and we couldn`t adopt the baby because Logan wouldn`t sign the papers. So her idea was to just keep running forever.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe your son is still alive at this point?
L. JOHNSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why?
L. JOHNSON: Just a feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I`ve appointed a public defender to represent you. I noted you shaking your head and disagreeing with comments.
E. JOHNSON: Yes, everything she was saying was completely false.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do not interrupt. I noted that you were disagreeing by nodding -- or by shaking your head back and forth with comments made by the county attorney at various times during her statement. While I recognize you may have a different view of what was said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We also learned that no composite sketch has been released of this couple who allegedly took off with the baby.
What about it, Michael Board? What do we know? Is Elizabeth Johnson cooperating with police?
BOARD: No. Not in the least bit. She`s not helping them. She`s not telling them anything. She`s not helping them make a sketch. She is quiet. She is asking for her attorney. That`s it. No help whatsoever.
GRACE: Response to Jack and Tammi Smith. What do you make of that, Jack Smith?
J. SMITH: I don`t know what to make of much of anything these days. I have to be honest with you. It`s just one of those things that she appeared something totally different than she wound up being and we feel quite duped. You`re correct.
GRACE: In what way were you duped?
J. SMITH: Well, we were given papers that showed certain things that she did, like parenting classes. She went to extensive parents classes. She also went to -- she had all these shot records that were up to date and.
T. SMITH: And telling us, you know, horrible things about her ex and how, you know, just all the things about him and, oh, go look at his record. You can find -- you know, and showing up his record and then showing us how her record has, you know, just -- she didn`t stop at a stop light, you know? And just the poor, pitiful, single mom -- and it`s just, I feel like an idiot, you know?
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, is she cooperating with police on the composite or in any other way?
ZARRELL: Not in any way at all. Police are saying she is the only person that knows exactly where Gabriel is and she is not telling them anything.
GRACE: Oh no. This sounds like exactly what cops said about tot mom before the little Caylee`s body was found. This is exactly what they were saying.
Remember? Lawyers, Gloria Allred, Alex Sanchez, Anne Bremner, and Cheryl McCollum, that`s what they said. She holds the key. Remember that, Sheryl McCollum?
MCCOLLUM: Absolutely. She`s the last one with the baby. She had motive to get rid of the baby. She`s the one that`s fleeing. She`s the one that won`t cooperate.
GRACE: What about it, Gloria?
ALLRED: Boy, she -- yes, and she had also alleged earlier in her filings that the father, the person who now is alleged to be the father, Logan, that he had a criminal record and that she was very concerned about that.
This is a young woman who grew up in many foster care homes herself. Apparently she wanted a better future for her child, but what is going to be the future for her child? We don`t know now if her child will even have a future.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, what can she do right now to save her own skin?
SANCHEZ: You know if the state is so interested in finding out the whereabouts of that child, let them provide her with an attorney right now. Don`t tell her, yes, we`re going to give you the name of an attorney and you can call the attorney up.
Let an attorney come in right now and have a discussion with her so the attorney can then contact the assistant district attorney and possibly work out some reasonable resolution to this matter.
GRACE: Well, what that sounds like to me, Anne Bremner, is some kind of a deal. A plea deal. And if she killed this baby and put that baby in a diaper bag and threw him in the trash, no deal.
BREMNER: Well, probably not, but the fact is they don`t even believe that text where she supposedly said that. They said they don`t believe it and the child`s alive. And the difference between this case, Nancy, and tot mom is that, you know, tragically in tot mom`s case they did find the body and they connected the evidence to the mother.
GRACE: Yes. After months and months on end. Out to the lines. Sherry, New Jersey. Hi, Sherry.
SHERRY, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. First, I`d like to say I`m a very, very happy fan tonight and I have one thing to say. Hi, hon, what`s your question? No, enough about that. I just had to get that out
. My question is for the Smiths. How long did they know that the baby`s mother or how well did they interact with this baby for them to say that during the polygraph test they were emotionally showing that they were emotionally attached?
GRACE: Good question.
SHERRY: And did.
GRACE: Good question. To you, Tammi Smith, how long had you known her?
T. SMITH: Well, I met her seven months ago so I didn`t know her until she came and called us on the 8th. So probably nine or 10 days. But, you know, the thing about emotionally attached to -- not to her, to Gabriel, you know?
Yes, we had some attachment. I mean, anybody would have attachment even if that baby came to your house for 24 hours. You still have that love for that child that you held in you and you hugged and played with.
You fed him and change his diaper, and, you know, and taught him how to eat with a spoon. He couldn`t really eat with a spoon when we got him. We tried to teach him how to crawl.
You know nine or 10 days, I`m sorry. We fell in love with him.
MCCOLLUM: You just used past tense. You just said we had attachment. Mr. And Mrs. Smith, please take a second polygraph. I find it very difficult to believe two of you in two separate tests were inconclusive.
GRACE: Hold on, everybody. We`re going to be right back. The Smiths are here, taking your calls. But as we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for Georgia friend, Gary Mann, recovering from pneumonia.
Even though he has been disabled and in a wheelchair his whole life, he`s he a university grad from Macon University. He founded the Annual Gary Mann Thanksgiving Turkey Fry at local fire stations, raising thousands for people who suffer muscular dystrophy.
He authored the book, "Everybody is Special." He started writing it at 9 years old on a typewriter. After 15 years working for the city of Macon, Georgia, he is now being laid off from his job.
Gary, please, stay strong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I have appointed the public defender to represent you. I noted you shaking your head in disagreeing with the comments...
(CROSSTALK)
E. JOHNSON: Yes, everything she was saying was completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do not interrupt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To you, Anne Bremner. So, while her son, her infant, at best, at best, is off with a couple she`s never met before, she`s gone on a shopping spree for clothes and getting her nails done. How is that going to look in front of a jury, Anne Bremner? What would you do with that?
BREMNER: Of course, I`m going to give you a quote, Nancy.
GRACE: That smile might work on me, but it`s not going to work on the jury.
BREMNER: I`ll give you one quote which is a close-mouth. Yes, there`s no -- she shouldn`t be speaking, but on that, you know, completely consistent with innocence, I mean that she`s out doing these kinds of things and the child is somebody that the child should be with.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You said the same thing about tot mom partying when her child was missing.
BREMNER: Right. Yes.
GRACE: What about it, Gloria Allred?
ALLRED: Well, we don`t know really what happened, Nancy. I feel for the mother, but I feel more for the child. And she`s also.
GRACE: What do you feel for the mother?
ALLRED: Ultimately, I think.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What, may I ask, do you feel for the mother?
ALLRED: I feel for the mother because this mother has had a very tough life.
GRACE: True.
ALLRED: She`s got strong feelings about the father. We don`t know why. It doesn`t justify what she`s done.
GRACE: I don`t care.
ALLRED: Whatever that is, whether it`s placing the child for adoption.
GRACE: Half of America is divorced and angry at their spouse. Half of America. Over half of America. I don`t care. I don`t care if she has strong feelings about her spouse. I don`t care. That has nothing to do with this, Gloria.
ALLRED: Well, the reason that I care is because I think we need to understand her in order to get the answers from her. And she`s the one who holds the key to where baby Gabriel is.
GRACE: You know what? You`re right. You`re right about that, Gloria Allred.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Zachary Baker, 24, Villanea, Arkansas, killed in Iraq, awarded the Bronze Star, the Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal.
Remembered for selflessness, good natured, would give you the shirt off his back, loved family, Red Sox, Arkansas Razorbacks, country music, favorite food, chicken. Leaves behind grieving parents, Kent and Sandra, sister Cara, brother, Shane, widow, Christina, son, Andrew.
Zachary Baker, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but our biggest thank you is to you for inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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