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Nancy Grace
Police Say They Think Missing 8-Month-Old Still Alive
Aired January 12, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car for a 978- mile road trip with this beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. Mommy spends Christmas holed up in a local motel alone, San Antonio, Texas, calling the 25-year-old biological father, threatening he`d never see the baby again, even telling the bio dad baby Gabriel is dead.
Turns out Mommy`s trying to give the baby away the whole time to an Arizona couple. Mommy alone, no baby Gabriel, hops a bus, heads for Florida December 27, the day after the last credible sighting of baby Gabriel alive, her car abandoned. December 30, Mommy`s located Miami Beach minus the baby. Car recovered San Antonio Motel 6, baby`s carseat still inside. When pressed, Mommy says she gives the baby away to a couple she bumps into at a public park, Texas.
Bombshell tonight: Police say they have evidence baby Gabriel is alive. But this while prosecutors lay out the gut-wrenching scenario in court that Mommy kills baby Gabriel, conceals his tiny body in a diaper bag and throws this beautiful baby boy into a dumpster like he`s trash. Tonight, investigators confirm baby Gabriel is alive San Antonio, December 26th. But when Mommy boards that bus, no more baby Gabriel. Evidence surfacing she plans to go on the run for some time.
Baby Gabriel`s crib found discarded in the family`s shed out back. And Mommy gives away baby clothes. Did she know baby Gabriel would never come home? Mommy, unemployed, takes off with $1,200 cash, spending money on hotels, food, gas, a bus ticket. When police ask Mommy to help find the baby, she says absolutely nothing. Mommy now charged with felony kidnap, child abuse, custody interference, but not murder.
Is there hope baby Gabriel`s alive? Would-be adoptive parents voluntarily take polygraphs. Result inconclusive. Will there be another round of polys? Tonight, can we save this baby with an angel face, baby Gabriel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, MOTHER: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s currently facing charges of kidnapping, which is a class 2 felony, child abuse, which is a class 4 felony, and custodial interference.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything you want to ask me or tell me?
JOHNSON: Ask you -- I don`t really know what to say, but everything is so false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the bail hearing, prosecutors said at one point Johnson claimed she killed her son, put his body in a diaper bag and threw him in the trash. Arizona police don`t believe that or her.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH, HOPED TO ADOPT GABRIEL: We want to believe that somebody has that baby. We -- Jack was extremely choked up. And we -- you guys are saying things about a diaper bag and stuff, and it`s -- we just don`t want to hear that!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s not helping them. She`s not telling them anything. She`s not helping them make a sketch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at her background. She has a chaotic life, dysfunctional family. She sounds like borderline personality disorder.
LOGAN MCQUEARY, GABRIEL`S FATHER: It`s just always been up and down with her. I don`t know really what makes her tick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She obviously does not want him to have any involvement with the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s exactly why I don`t think anybody believes the child is actually dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another development here. Tempe police gave potential adoptive parents Jack and Tammi Smith a polygraph test, and the results were inconclusive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why the Smiths are still involved in this story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they just kinds of people who like to help out and are kind of gullible and get themselves into things? I don`t know.
JACK SMITH, HOPED TO ADOPT GABRIEL: It`s clear we have no -- we have no idea where Gabriel is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the child is in good hands -- and that`s a big if -- then the child will, you know, still be around, whether the child is in a home, whether the child has been taken across the border of Mexico, whether the child is at the bottom of a landfill. And we have to try to find, you know, the information the best we can to try to recover Gabriel, whether it`s dead or alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news tonight, live, Utah, the mystery surrounding the suspicious disappearance of a beautiful young stockbroker, mother of two little children, 28-year-old Susan Powell goes missing without a trace. And why -- why -- did Daddy take the two little boys camping at midnight in freezing weather the night Mommy goes missing? I don`t like it! Investigators combing the family home, the family van and a rented vehicle. Tonight, Powell`s husband loads up a U-Haul and permanently moves out of the family home. Where is Susan Powell?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Josh Powell has reportedly moved out of his suburban Salt Lake City home, despite the fact his wife went missing from that house just weeks ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any idea what happened to her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Powell and up to 20 friends reportedly start packing the family`s belongings into a moving van. Neighbors say they helped Powell pack up his wife, Susan`s, belongings, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: West Valley police say Joshua Powell remains their only person of interest in Susan`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speculation comes from Josh`s story that he took his 2 and 4-year-old sons camping in the freezing cold of the west desert on the night Susan disappeared from their West Valley home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there was quite a huge effort out in the west desert looking for any sign of her. Is that where you were camping?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just have to go get my boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to hear a credible story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Powell moving out of state won`t hinder the investigation because Powell`s been uncooperative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this time, we`re supposed to be focusing on trying to find Susan, and I think his place is here, looking for Susan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Powell`s attorney reportedly says he`s leaving Utah because nobody in the area will hire Josh Powell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d like to know the facts. What happened? What does he know? What does he not know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police awaiting DNA results as the search for missing mom of two Susan Powell continues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if it clears him, that`s great, because now we can get on to the main focus, which is where`s my daughter at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t do anything. I mean, I -- I don`t know where she`s at. I -- I don`t even know where to start looking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Police say they have evidence baby Gabriel is alive. But this while prosecutors lay out the gut-wrenching scenario in court that Mommy kills baby Gabriel, conceals his little body in a diaper bag and throws the beautiful baby boy into a dumpster like he`s trash. Evidence surfacing Mommy plans to go on the run for some time. Baby Gabriel`s crib has now been found discarded in the family`s shed out back. And Mommy gives away the baby`s clothes. Did she know baby Gabriel would never come home?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Elizabeth Johnson, 7/24/86.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She appeared something totally different than she wound up being.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse, a class 2 felony, and one count of kidnapping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we feel quite duped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t give you the whole story from the get- go, is that what you`re saying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they still holding out on you right now, you believe?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, I believe so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New and murky clues in the search for missing baby Gabriel Johnson. Prosecutors say his mom is not helping them find him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is the only person who knows where Gabriel is, if he`s dead or alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She basically did not tell us anything about Gabriel`s condition or whereabouts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She allegedly told her ex-boyfriend she killed the child.
MCQUEARY: She put in the text, I killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she killed him?
MCQUEARY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Arizona police don`t believe that or her. They say they have indications that the 8-month-old boy is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think the police or the prosecutor or anybody believes that child is dead.
GRACE: Do you think, Tammi, that she is capable of killing this baby?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: You know, from what I know of her I don`t believe so. But I`ve only known her maybe three or four weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s got a major credibility problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s the last one with the baby. She had motive to get rid of the baby. She`s the one that`s fleeing. She`s the one that won`t cooperate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s prepared to stick to her story and stay in jail as long as is necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio. Michael, I`ve got a lot of questions for you and Matt Zarrell tonight. The headlines are all about police have evidence that they believe baby Gabriel is alive. Michael Board, first question. Is there, that you know of, a parallel investigation going on tonight? For instance, are cops looking for baby Gabriel, and are they also looking for a body?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via telephone): Yes. That is correct. There are parallel investigations. There are investigators from Tempe, Arizona, in San Antonio today. The suspect in this case -- I call her a suspect, Elizabeth Johnson, the mom, because she`s actually been charged with kidnapping and custodial interference. There are investigations going on right now because the mom is not talking, because she is standoffish. The only way they can figure out what`s going on is to do an investigation, that includes here in San Antonio, trying to follow up on leads if while she was in San Antonio, the mom gave the child away in some sort of bizarre adoption, or if she did murder her child. That is a very real possibility. That`s something that they are looking at.
GRACE: Michael Board --
BOARD: That is an investigation that`s going on...
GRACE: Michael Board, Michael Board...
BOARD: ... in San Antonio.
GRACE: ... hold on just a moment. True, they may be in San Antonio - - I already know that -- looking. But are they looking for a body? Because I haven`t heard a word about searching landfills, about searching dumpsters, about bringing in cadaver dogs into the last known motel where she stayed, where the baby was last seen alive by hotel staff -- I can confirm that tonight -- on December 26th. I haven`t heard one word about cadaver dogs, about hound dogs, about minefields (ph), about dumpsters, nothing. They may be in San Antonio talking to people, Hey, did you see this lady with her baby, but are they looking for a body, Michael Board?
BOARD: If they are, they`re not telling us about it. They are still sticking to the assumption that the child is alive.
GRACE: They...
BOARD: You have to think...
GRACE: ... don`t...
BOARD: ... that there is...
GRACE: ... have...
BOARD: ... a real investigation.
GRACE: ... to tell me about it, Michael! They don`t have to tell us. That`s why we`ve got eyes and ears. We can see. If they`re out looking through a dumpster, you want to tell me the local news wouldn`t be all over that? Of course, they would!
BOARD: In that case, no, we have not seen cadaver dogs out in Russell Reed (ph) Park here in San Antonio. They have not had cadaver dogs at the hotel where she stayed for a week. They have not had cadaver dogs at the Motel 6 where the car was found with the baby seat in it. They have not done cadaver dogs at the bus terminal, nor have they done cadaver dogs at the cemetery which is just north of the park, where we know she was at.
GRACE: You believe she was at a cemetery?
BOARD: There`s a cemetery that`s right next to the park where she was at. If a woman did kill her baby, where do you think she would want to put it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant took Gabriel from his father, concealed him, ran to Texas, and somewhere in Texas, says she left Gabriel with strangers and/or killed him. We have no idea the harm that Gabriel has suffered or is continuing to suffer in this case because the defendant refuses to tell anyone where he is or if he is dead or alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To this date Gabriel has not been found. The search for him is still on.
On December 27th, 2009, the date that Logan was supposed to get Gabriel from the defendant, he received a text message from her stating that Gabriel was dead. The defendant in this case has also admitted through a media interview that she did send that text message to Logan stating that Gabriel was dead.
JOHNSON: I don`t really know what to say, but everything is so false from the claim (ph) to everything that she said is so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, allegedly, something to the effect that she had smothered the child, put him in a diaper bag and put him in the dumpster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What she did is one of the cruelest and most manipulative moves that one could imagine, telling him that his child is dead.
GRACE: All along, apparently, she`s tried to adopt the baby out, possibly for money.
JOHNSON: Everything is so false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did she, you know, get her funds to travel from here to Miami? The best we can tell, she had about $1,200. And you know, when you calculate her gas, her food, her week-long stay in the San Antonio area, and then the bus trip, some shopping trips that she went on, looks like maybe some nail salons and different things -- I mean, she spent some money.
JOHNSON: I don`t really know what to say, but everything is so false.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s false. It`s false. It`s false. But when police ask her to help them find the baby, she says absolutely nothing. Nothing! Doesn`t even try to come up with a description of the couple she allegedly gave the baby to, where it happened, the time of day, the day. Nothing! Nothing about the conversation she had with this couple. Did she see their car tags, their make and model? Nothing! Zero!
We are taking your calls live. I want to go to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. What more can you tell me?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she`s said very little so far. The only thing she`s done is she`s asked where the bathroom was, at this point. She has said nothing to help investigators...
GRACE: Stop. The only thing she did was ask where the bathroom was for herself? That`s it?
ZARRELL: So far, that`s what police are saying, yes.
GRACE: What about on the plane? Did they fly her or drive her from Miami Beach back home to Arizona?
ZARRELL: They flew her back. And they asked her on the plane, Do you want to help find Gabriel? Help us find Gabriel. And she had nothing to say.
GRACE: Nothing? Zero?
ZARRELL: Nothing.
GRACE: I`ve already told you everything I know, nothing like that, just zero?
ZARRELL: Zero.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. Thank you for asking. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question and then a comment.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, what proof do they have that she even left with the baby from Arizona? And this is like the balloon boy, you know? He was in the balloon but never was in the balloon.
GRACE: Well, hold on, Raye. Don`t let her go yet, Liz. Raye in Florida, I know for a fact that people in the hotel, whether they stayed there or worked there, saw her with the baby in San Antonio, Texas, December 26th. I know that much. I also know that video surveillance there in the hotel and around the hotel spots her sitting out in the parking lot alone December 27th. Then she gets out of her car alone and heads across the street. Across the street is the bus station. So I know she had the baby December 26th, San Antonio, Texas. Does that answer your question, Raye in Florida?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I guess it does. But I just feel, you know, it`s -- I don`t know. I`m still praying that the baby is alive and well and that she`ll talk. That`s all.
GRACE: You know, Raye in Florida, I am, too. And the only thing that gives me any hope is Jack and Tammi Smith because the way that they approached her in public, in a public place -- it was an airport -- they`re with me tonight. Jack Smith, isn`t that the way you and Tammi approached her? She was crying, holding the baby down. And typically, you know, you hold a baby up like this. I mean, when I hold John David and Lucy, even both of them at the same time -- and John David is up now, I`m happy to say, almost 37 pounds. Lucy`s at 32. I hold them up here. And you know, when you`ve got your baby down in your lap, the baby`s crying and you`re crying -- isn`t that how you approached her in public?
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: That`s how I approached her. And we were actually talking about that about 20 minutes ago, that I hold Hannah`s (ph) baby dolls closer to myself than she was holding her baby down here.
GRACE: And just instinctively, I find that very, very unusual. I`ve thought about it ever since you said it, Tammi Smith. She was holding the baby, like, resting on her knees, almost...
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: Right, a newborn.
GRACE: ... horizontally. A newborn. That is very, very unusual. But back to Raye in Florida. That`s how you met her, and that`s what she`s saying happened to this couple she met at Russell Park, San Antonio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I believe her. I think that she did do something that ridiculous and foolish. I also get the impression that she`s prepared to stick to her story and stay in jail as long as is necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To this date, Gabriel has not been found. The search for him is still on.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH: The thing about emotionally attached to -- not to her -- to Gabriel, you know -- yes, we had some attachment. I mean, anybody would have attachment. Even if that baby came to your house for 24 hours, you still have that love for that child that you held and you hugged and played with, you fed him and changed his diaper and you know, and taught him how to eat with a spoon. He couldn`t really eat with a spoon when we got him. We tried to teach him how to crawl. You know, nine or ten days -- I`m sorry, we fell in love with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I don`t understand why people are questioning that Jack and Tammi Smith love the baby. I mean, who wouldn`t love -- what`s not to love? Look at this baby. They had the baby in their home. They took care of the baby, trying to teach him how to crawl. I mean, we -- everybody on our staff has fallen in love with the baby. We`ve never even gotten to hold him or take care of him or even met him.
We are taking your calls live, but first to the expert, Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. What do you think, Marc?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think a couple of things. I think, first of all, that we have to assume that the baby is alive until they show us proof of death. And secondly, this is no longer about the couple that she supposedly gave the baby to coming forth. This is about friends and neighbors noticing a baby where there was no baby before and bringing that information to the attention of the authorities to find out if this is, in fact, little baby Gabriel so that he can be brought home to his father, where he belongs.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, New York, family law attorney, child advocate Sue Moss, veteran trial attorney Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, renowned attorney Joe Lawless joining us out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct."
Weigh in, Sue Moss.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Another tot mom charade, this time without Zenaida. What disturbs me most is she says she gave away this child, but she didn`t give away the carseat. If she was truly giving away the child, you would think that she would give all the child`s possessions to this alleged couple. The fact that that carseat is still in that car really worries me.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, the baby`s crib was found discarded in a shed in the back of the family home.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, if I was this lady`s lawyer, I would ask her to assure me how we can find this child alive. If she cannot do that, I would keep clam up and I`d keep her quiet because she`s got bigger problems than an interference with custody or a kidnapping case.
GRACE: Well, Joe Lawless, apparently, she`s clamming up all on her own.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes, but Nancy, she`s been said to have had an undiagnosed bipolar disorder. This is a woman who...
GRACE: Bipolar doesn`t make you a liar or a killer, Joe Lawless.
LAWLESS: But it certainly makes you someone who needs to be looked at very closely. Marc Klaas nailed it. This is about the neighbors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve also been arrested on new charges alleging child abuse, a class 2 felony, and one count of kidnapping, a class 2 felony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a real potential that she could face more serious charges in the future. This is because, in her own words, she stated that she killed Gabriel.
LOGAN JOHNSON, FATHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: She put in the text, "I killed him."
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That she killed him?
L. JOHNSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Past sentence?
L. JOHNSON: Yes, "I killed him" is what she said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant told Logan she had killed Gabriel. That she had put him in a diaper bag and thrown him in the dumpster.
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, MOTHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: Everything that she said is so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can`t negate the fact that she said that she killed him. She was very specific about that. And then we have to look into that and take her threat seriously.
JACK SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: She appeared something totally different than she wound up being, and we feel quite duped.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: Just the poor, pitiful, single mom, and it`s just -- I feel like an idiot.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The defendant is the only person who knows where Gabriel is and if he`s dead or alive, and she refuses to cooperate and tell anyone where Gabriel is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight back to Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio, joining us from San Antonio.
Michael, again, thank you for being with us. What can you tell me about cops possibly having GPS evidence?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via phone): Yes. That`s right. They found -- we heard earlier that when Elizabeth Johnson left Arizona she had a GPS unit in her car. That`s something that the Smiths talked about as being unusual. They didn`t know she had one.
We have confirmed that she did have one in her car. And when she ditched it at the motel here in San Antonio right before taking the bus she left that GPS in her car. And investigators now have that GPS and I`m told they`re using that GPS unit to track her every movement.
Maybe if they can figure out where she went in San Antonio then they might figure out if she did actually go to that park or not. If she did go to a dumpster maybe that GPS unit will lead us right to that dumpster.
GRACE: Bill Majeski, former NYPD, now with Majeski Associates, Inc. He`s a polygrapher. That is brilliant. That is brilliant. I`ve been thinking about what evidence could they get out of the car, the fact that they have processed the car, including possibly the FBI, and if they didn`t find evidence of a murder the way they did in tot mom Casey Anthony`s car, human decomposition in the trunk, that would give me hope that the baby was still alive.
I had no idea until tonight that the cops had GPS. Michael board, WOAI, is confirming that. And, of course, she abandons the car. We know, December 27th. Before that time where she left the baby or give the baby away.
BILL MAJESKI, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, MAJESKI ASSOCIATES, INC.: That`s correct. And hopefully she used the vehicle to get to a particular location where the baby was either given away or disposed of in some way.
But clearly the police should be in that area. Should be doing a canvass of everyone in that area, around the motel. I`m sure there were people that saw the car, saw her, saw her with the baby.
There`s always a real possibility that people will remember seeing her in a specific location or going to a specific location or, perhaps even talking to someone and telling them what they were going to do.
Again, it`s unfortunate that the child -- well, hopefully the child is still alive at this point in time, but I think the quicker that the police get involved in the investigation and get information relating to the location of the baby.
GRACE: Right.
MAJESKI: . the better we all are in terms of.
GRACE: Hey, Liz, he`s right. Let`s show those photos of the two hotels and motels again.
People, look at this. The tip line -- keep it up, Liz -- 1-800-843- 5678. 800-THE-LOST. Anyone that stayed here, the Quality Inn and Suites, Fiesta Park. HomeGate Studios and Suites there in San Antonio. Think back. What, if anything, did you see?
We know the baby`s alive December 26th. The only problem would be -- I`m going to go to the lawyers on this. Sue Moss, Ray Giudice, Joe Lawless.
Joe Lawless, if she deposited the baby somewhere on foot -- I mean, think about it, think about it, Joe Lawless. Casey Anthony, the baby`s about 10 houses away from her own home. Look at the Robert Blake murder. The gun dropped right there in the dumpster, not far from the body.
I mean, very often killers leave evidence close to home. Close to where they are. She could have dropped the baby in a dumpster by foot. She didn`t need her car.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": It could have been by foot. It could have been within a block or two. If she has the baby in the back of a -- or in a diaper bag she`s mobile and it could be anywhere.
On the other hand, if it`s in a commercial district or an area around a hotel, it`s not going to be hard to locate where the dumpsters are, where they went, et cetera. And it`s trackable.
GRACE: But you know.
LAWLESS: But I think Marc Klaas really nailed this.
GRACE: What way?
LAWLESS: I think the people -- I think the people who are in that community have to look around and all of a sudden there`s a couple, you know, we have a baby. We just adopted a baby. I think that`s something we`ve got to pick up the phone and call the police.
If you`re wrong you`re wrong. If you`re right you may have found a child who needs to be found.
GRACE: Raymond Giudice, it seems to me that she would go in the car. You know she`s used to being in the car. She`s been in the car for 978 miles.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: She`s in an area in which she`s unfamiliar with -- which is unfamiliar.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: If she deposited that baby, in her scenario, giving it away in a park, or leaving it alive alone somewhere which is a common M.O. of mothers or leaving it in a dumpster, she would have done it in that car.
GIUDICE: A young woman far from home, that car is going to serve as sort of her -- you know, her safe guard, her life raft. But I`m concerned about is now we are 2 1/2, almost 3 weeks out. That GPS information, I think that could have been downloaded by law enforcement a long time ago, Nancy. That hasn`t led to anything yet. I`m not too optimistic about that.
GRACE: To Dr. Jake Deutsch, doctor of emergency medicine, joining us out of New York.
Dr. Deutsch, thank you for being with us. Doctor, if she had just left the baby somewhere, alive, would it still be alive right now?
DR. JAKE DEUTSCH, M.D., DOCTOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE: Yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. It`s an unlikely possibility but I`m very concerned about just simple things like cold exposure and sun exposure at this point.
But a child that age you worry about infections, pneumonia, urinary tract infections, even meningitis. We`re talking about a very vulnerable child. And keep in mind, we have a flu epidemic that`s going on right now as well.
So there`s a lot going against that possibility. Hopefully somebody has taken him in. I`m worried about the pre-existing treatment of the child even when it was in the mother`s care. So there`s a lot of.
GRACE: I am, too, Dr. Deutsch.
DEUTSCH: A lot of strikes against this baby unfortunately.
GRACE: Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, New York. Bipolar, to my understanding, doesn`t make you a big, fat liar or a killer.
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. It doesn`t.
GRACE: I mean.
AUSTIN: It doesn`t. It doesn`t necessarily make you violent. It can be controlled with medication. Lots of bipolar people function perfectly well. However, the big red flag here is that she is not talking. I think she has some form of extreme mental illness.
Whether she`s cunning or she can`t think or she actually doesn`t remember, we don`t know enough yet. But there is something very wrong here that she`s not talking at all.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, I want you to tell Marc Klaas about the postings on Craigslist and why we think she had planned to be on the run ahead of time.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, she had posted multiple alleged postings on Craigslist where she offered to give away a lot of stuff for money including baby clothes. She sold her pets. She wanted a nanny. All that money.
She also was looking for a roommate to give her money so hopefully she could have all this money stashed away when she went on the road.
GRACE: And interesting, Marc Klaas, she was offering to give away the baby`s clothes before she left. She threw the baby`s crib out in a shed in the back of the home.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Whatever her master plan was, she had absolutely no intention of ever returning with that child. That seems very, very clear. And she was also trying to get as much money as she could I suspect to get as far away as she could.
GRACE: I`m going to go to Jack and Tammi Smith. Many people still think they`re hiding something. Yes, their polygraphs were inconclusive. That`s not good. But they have repeatedly come on our show and taken your calls.
Jack Smith, Tammi Smith -- I`ll start with you, Tammi. What do you think when you hear she discarded the baby`s crib out in a shed?
T. SMITH: She -- I know that when she gave us the baby she said that she was going to give away all of his stuff and going back to having the car seat still in the car, I had to ask her for his car seat because we didn`t have one. She didn`t give us anything without us, like, almost begging her for it. Like a bottle.
GRACE: But why, Jack, would she throw the crib in a shed?
J. SMITH: Well, first of all it`s my understanding that -- I don`t know that it was thrown in the crib or it was put into the shed. She was making room for this roommate that was coming in so she had to clear out the baby`s crib. The baby was with us.
GRACE: I hope you`re right.
J. SMITH: Us too.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. But as we go to break, happy new year to a California, very furry friend of the show, Ben. He was adopted a year and a half ago by true animal lover, Linda, from Menlo, Menlo Park.
Ben loves sleeping on Linda`s bed. He watches our show every night. He`s also a huge Yankees fan and he never takes a nap without his New York Yankees teddy bear.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Josh Powell`s wife, Susan, vanished from their suburban Salt Lake home. But Powell is reportedly packing up and moving to Washington state, 800 miles away, despite the fact his wife still remains missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Josh Powell will call this upscale, gated (INAUDIBLE) Washington community his new home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you have any idea what happened to her?
JOSH POWELL, HUSBAND OF MISSING SUSAN POWELL. No. Maybe she`s somewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Josh Powell, the sole person of interest in his wife, Susan`s, disappearance, hitching up the moving van and driving it back to his father`s home in Washington, where he`ll reportedly live with his 4 and 2-year-old sons.
Those sons allegedly went camping with Powell the night Susan disappeared to test the generator and make Smores in freezing cold conditions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean the whole thing sounds, you know, just really suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Susan Powell has been missing for more than a month.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: West Valley Police say Joshua Powell remains their only person of interest in Susan`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was my wife that disappeared I think I would have stayed and I would certainly have talked to the police and told them everything I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still need to know where my daughter is. That`s kind of where I am right now. I haven`t -- I haven`t had a clue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jim Kirkwood with KTKK News Radio joining us, Salt Lake City, Utah.
Jim, so he`s not expecting her to come walking through the front door any time soon. He`s packed up in a U-Haul and left town.
JIM KIRKWOOD, REPORTER, KTKK, NEWS RADIO: That`s exactly what happened. He said he`s taking her things with him because he expects her to come back. But that`s highly suspicious. He`s leaving town.
GRACE: What more can you tell me, Jim Kirkwood?
KIRKWOOD: The police want to talk to him for a third time. He`s refused. He has employed an attorney, a criminal defense attorney, a good one here in town.
GRACE: Who?
KIRKWOOD: And yet he doesn`t have -- excuse me?
GRACE: Who did he hire?
KIRKWOOD: Williams is his name. He`s a very good criminal attorney.
GRACE: Hmm. What more has he said -- out to you, Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer on the story. The night mommy goes missing is the night he decides to take his two little boys -- I believe they`re ages 2 and 4 -- out camping in freezing weather to make Smores. OK. And then he gets home and rut-roh, mommy gone-gone.
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. This is what troubles the police. The timeline is very.
GRACE: B.S.
MIKKILINENI: . scarce. And so he`s not been very clear about exactly where he was, exactly what time he left. He only says that he left his wife sleeping at midnight and he took his kids out camping to a certain location. He`s not detailed about this.
GRACE: Eighteen degrees. You know what? If my husband tried to take John David and Lucy, who are 2, a little over 2 years old, out camping in 18-degree weather, it would be over my dead, cold body. All right?
What more can you tell me, Rupa? Where did he say he was going camping that night?
MIKKILINENI: He said he was going to an area that he typically has gone camping with the children before. It`s an area that`s not.
GRACE: Did he go at midnight, Rupa? To test out a new generator?
MIKKILINENI: This is what he claims, Nancy. And he claims he`s gone midnight camping before with the children, but family members claim that he would never typically be allowed to go by his wife, taking the children so late at night and especially in such cold weather.
GRACE: Now, is it true, Jim Kirkwood, joining us, KTKK News Radio, Salt Lake City, Utah, that he has let it be known that he is moving because he doesn`t have a job and he cannot afford the mortgage payments anymore? Is that his story?
KIRKWOOD: That is exactly his story, and he did lose his job, but he lost his job because he didn`t show up that day a month ago. He stayed out camping and on a new job you just don`t disappear and not call in.
GRACE: Didn`t he say he lost track of what day it was when he was supposed to be at work on Monday morning?
KIRKWOOD: Yes. He said.
GRACE: Boy, I bet the headline news president and CNN president would love for me to jump up and say I forgot it was Monday night and just didn`t show up.
Rupa, he says he can`t afford to stay in the house. But is the house up for sale?
MIKKILINENI: There are no for-sale signs up, Nancy. So no, and his brother says that the mortgage payments are up to par and on time. So.
GRACE: Whether you`re at home or not, unless you`ve sold your house, you still got to pay that mortgage payment. So that doesn`t even make any sense to me.
Joining me right now is Kirsi Hellewell,. She is a friend of both Susan and Josh Powell. Thank you for being with us, Miss Hellewell.
KIRSI HELLEWELL, FRIEND OF SUSAN AND JOSHUA POWELL (via phone): Thank you.
GRACE: Did you help Josh pack for his move to Washington?
HELLEWELL: I did. On Friday. I spent about five hours with him.
GRACE: What was his demeanor or his frame of mind?
HELLEWELL: It was kind of a little strange. He acted at times kind of normal and just talking about whatever and then other times he`d get teary eyed and start crying. So it kind of varies.
GRACE: When he cried did you say, what`s wrong?
HELLEWELL: No, because I was in her closet at the time packing up her clothes and I was crying and so he -- I assumed that it -- you know, he saw me crying and was remembering what I was.
GRACE: When I look at her, she`s got one of the most beautiful smiles I`ve ever seen. And I can`t imagine leaving my twins for somebody else to raise. What did he say about her disappearance?
HELLEWELL: He won`t talk about her disappearance at all. Any time we try to ask him about it, he just says my lawyer says I can`t talk about it.
GRACE: Did you ask him about it before he got that lawyer? That lawyer is Scott Williams.
HELLEWELL: I didn`t specifically ask him about it because I was worried about doing something that might be wrong or bother the police or do something wrong. I didn`t know what to say. I was so heartbroken and devastated myself.
GRACE: I can understand that.
HELLEWELL: I didn`t ask him anymore, but -- yes.
GRACE: Let me ask you regarding the search for Susan. Has he been helping trying to find her? Has he helped with this huge well spring of people trying to find her, for instance, on Facebook, online?
HELLEWELL: He told me that he has not gotten on the Internet at all or watched any TV or news clips because he knows everybody is suspecting him. So he doesn`t want to deal with it. So he`s not looked online, but he did take a large stack of flyers back with him with the moving van and said he was going to post them at every place he stopped.
GRACE: Do you have reason to believe he did in fact do that?
HELLEWELL: I don`t know, because I haven`t talked to him, but he sounded pretty sincere and he said he was going to put them up all over every time he stopped.
GRACE: Kirsi, how are the children doing?
HELLEWELL: I haven`t actually seen them since the week before Christmas. At the time that I last saw them, they seemed to be pretty OK. They were happy. They were enjoying, playing with toys and seemed pretty OK. I`ve heard since then that they`re still doing OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless of who`s responsible for Susan`s disappearance, Josh is really suffering. And if we can help him out, that`s what I`m going to do. That`s what we would like to see a lot of people to help Josh. So this might be the time we see him, with him moving out, so it`s a chance for us to say goodbye to a friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
POWELL: We just miss her and we want her back. And I love her and my boys love her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How are they doing?
POWELL: They`re doing OK.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you have any idea what happened to her?
POWELL: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Susie in California, hi, Susie.
SUSIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. I`m Susie with discernment in California, remember me?
GRACE: Yes, I do. Thank you for calling in. What is your question, dear?
SUSIE: My question is, are we talking about the baby or are we talking about the man that just up and left all of a sudden without telling anybody and.
GRACE: Right now we`re talking about Susan and Joshua Powell.
SUSIE: OK. First of all, my discernment tells me that -- I mean, why isn`t he sobbing, crying? Why aren`t they helping find my wife? Why is he leaving so if she`s like.
GRACE: That is an excellent question, Susie in California. Let`s go to Kirsi Hellewell, friend of Susan and Josh Powell, who helped him pack up to leave town. Why does he say he`s leaving?
HELLEWELL: He told us that even though it might take him a few months for the bank to take his house that he cannot afford to make the payments anymore, he can`t afford to pay any of his bills and he wanted to get all his stuff out before any kind.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Did he explain why he didn`t show up for work that morning?
HELLEWELL: He -- all he says is that he thought it was still Sunday and he`s had that job for a year and he`s gone to work every Monday, like always. So I don`t know.
GRACE: He thought it was still Sunday, did I hear that right or did my eye just flipped out?
HELLEWELL: Yes, he thought it was Sunday and he got the days mixed up is what he says.
GRACE: OK. Kirsi, friend of both Susan and Josh Powell, wanting to believe the very best.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant 1st Class James Connell, Jr., 40, Lake City, Tennessee, killed Iraq, on a second tour, awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal. Buried at Arlington National Cemetery amongst other brave soldiers who sacrificed their lives for our country.
Over a 19-year Army career, visited 42 states, 13 countries, loved Sunday dinner with family, coaching football, baseball, soccer. Dedicated to God, family, country and community. Leaves behind parents, James Sr. and Susie, three brothers, one sister, four children.
James Connell Jr., American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Everyone, as we put our head to our pillow tonight, let`s pray for baby Gabriel. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
