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Nancy Grace

New Clue in Missing Baby Gabriel Case

Aired February 01, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her Tempe, Arizona, home by car for a thousand-mile road trip with this beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. Mommy spends Christmas holed up in a local San Antonio motel, calling the 25-year-old bio dad, threatening he`d never see his baby again, that she had killed baby Gabriel. Turns out the whole time, Mommy`s trying to give the baby away to an Arizona couple.

Mommy alone, no baby, hops a bus to Florida December 27, 24 hours after the last credible sighting of the baby alive. December 30, cops find Mommy Miami Beach, no baby. Car recovered San Antonio, baby carseat still inside. When pressed, Mommy explains she gives her baby away to a couple she bumps into at a state park.

Bombshell tonight. It`s a whole new ball game, everybody. An eyewitness spots Mommy with a couple, a couple in their mid-30s, just before baby Gabriel disappears. Mommy also spotted twice with a Hispanic male, a male who is at that meeting with her and the couple. Did they take the baby?

But just as fresh air is breathed into the investigation, a dig set to start at any moment, investigators cordoning off the Tessman Road landfill, just 12 miles from that motel where baby Gabriel last seen, police honing in on a particular cell within a huge landfill, ID`d by date and location.

Also tonight, investigators zero in on this diaper bag. It`s in the background of a photo from Mommy`s own camera. Tonight, where -- where -- is baby Gabriel?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Are investigators getting closer to finding baby Gabriel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to believe that somebody has that baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have not opened a homicide case. We`re still considering it a missing person case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A report says Elizabeth Johnson, the mom of baby Gabriel, may have been seen with a middle-aged couple, Hispanic man when she was in San Antonio, Texas. Investigators reportedly trying to track these people down.

LOGAN MCQUEARY, GABRIEL`S FATHER: I want to believe that she did give him away so that maybe he`s safe and he`s with a -- you know, somebody who`s taking care of him right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel. It`s also a possibility that she handed Gabriel off to somebody else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to sources, police are concentrating on this diaper bag, seen in one of the last photos of baby Gabriel, taken just days before he vanishes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve got to remember this girl is a smart girl. She knows what she`s doing.

MCQUEARY: I said, Where`s Gabriel? She said, You know where he`s at. I already told you. And I asked her, Where is he? And she said that, I stuck him in a diaper bag, and she suffocated him and put him in a diaper bag and put him in a dumpster.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The guys are saying things about diaper bags and stuff, and we just don`t want to hear that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What clues might the cloth diaper bag hold? Police say they plan to begin excavating a landfill and identified an area of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the investigation progresses, we have to carry on with the course that he may be alive, but we also, unfortunately, have to proceed with the investigation that she may have killed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. It`s a whole new ball game. An eyewitness spots Mommy with a couple in their mid-30s just before Gabriel disappears. Mommy also spotted twice -- twice -- with a Hispanic male who is also at the meeting with Mommy and the couple. Did these people take the baby?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement working around the clock to find baby Gabriel.

MCQUEARY: I think about it every single day, whether he`s dead alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A local new report says the mother of Gabriel, Elizabeth Johnson, may have been with a Hispanic man and A middle-aged couple. Could this potential lead break the case wide open?

MCQUEARY: Yes, I do believe she did -- she`d give him away and not really care about it because she didn`t really seem like -- you know, she was never really around. She was around, but she wasn`t in the same room, never really played with him or anything like that. So I kind of see how it was kind of easy for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators from multiple jurisdictions continue their investigation, planning to begin searching a local landfall for potential evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have, you know, cubic yards and tons of trash that they`d have to pick through, not to mention that if there`s -- if there`s -- if, indeed, there is a death, the decomposition does deteriorate any type of viable evidence that might be helpful in determining what the cause of death was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Word emerges cops reportedly focusing on a cloth diaper bag, diaper bag shown in the last-known images of baby Gabriel.

ANALISA URIAS, BABY-SAT GABRIEL IN SAN ANTONIO: They`re very heartbreaking, I mean, because his clothes are just filthy and he looks like he`s out of it. He looks worn out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is baby Gabriel dead or alive?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio. Michael, first of all, I want to hear about this middle-aged couple -- not really middle- aged, they`re in their 30s -- spotted with Mommy, and then a Hispanic male that`s popped up at least twice in sightings.

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via telephone): You know, we`ve talked often in this investigation about what happened in San Antonio and we`ve talked about the possibility that Elizabeth Johnson may have had contact here in San Antonio with someone who helped her broker some sort of illegal adoption. This does point to that direction, that she was in this company of this Hispanic male, mid to late 20s, at least twice. That means she could have met with him once, and then the second time, she could have met with him and also the couple that she gave the baby to. Now, Elizabeth Johnson has said...

GRACE: Wait a minute, Michael, Michael, Michael, Michael...

BOARD: Yes?

GRACE: You went out on me. Pick it back up about why she was in San Antonio to start with, which is what I`ve always wondered. If she wants to go from Tempe, Arizona, to Miami Beach, Florida, why does she go via San Antonio? Start over, Michael.

BOARD: Well, why did she come to San Antonio? Possibly she had a connection with someone in San Antonio. She had met someone on line. We know Elizabeth Johnson spent a lot of time on Web spaces (SIC) like Craigslist and things like this. She could have met someone on line who would help her broker a baby sale or broker an illegal adoption. That is very possibly what we could be talking about here. And it`s clues like this, Nancy Grace, that we know this is why police have not dug into the landfill out here yet. They`re tracking down this lead very hard. That`s why they haven`t dug into the landfill out here.

GRACE: Well, you know, Michael Board, I didn`t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. All this time, so much time has passed since baby Gabriel went missing, yet they have not lifted up one soda can out of a dump to look for baby Gabriel. I mean, you`ve to be deaf, dumb and blind, plus living in a cave, not to be able to figure out they think the baby is alive. No matter how many times we`ve asked them, and we call them practically by the hour, Have you started digging, have you isolated a landfill, have you followed a dump truck from the San Antonio motel to the landfill to identify which one it is, it`s always, No, no, no, we`re going to. We were going to. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe -- and they never do it. Maybe this is why.

Tell me some more, Michael Board, about the specifics of these people Mommy was spotted with.

BOARD: Well, it is very shaky. We don`t have a specific -- we don`t even have a hair color or a size. We know that the Hispanic male that she met with twice is apparently in his late 20s. And she also had a meeting with a couple that the witnesses believe are in their late 30s.

Now, we know in the past, Elizabeth Johnson has told police investigators that she met with a couple there, that there was -- this was not in a meeting with investigators, but this was in an interview, I believe, with Tammi Smith. During the jailhouse interview, she said that she met a couple there, one was a woman with blond hair. Another one was a larger Hispanic man. That fits this. So you know, this is some consistency in some of her stories for the first time. This is starting to match up here.

GRACE: OK. You`ve got an excellent point. Everybody, breaking news tonight in the search for baby Gabriel. Just as police tell us they have identified the cell, as they call it -- C-E-L-L, like a cell phone -- the cell in this gigantic landfill -- we`re showing you video of it right now - - that they can identify by the date it was dumped, the location, the depth where the trash from that motel would be the day that it was emptied after baby Gabriel from there in the motel.

They`ve identified that, and I`m going to take you to an expert in just a moment to explain how do you do such a thing. But to me, the breaking news tonight is that we have independent corroboration, according to our sources, that Mommy was spotted with a couple in their 30s, along with a Hispanic male.

Does this fit hand in glove with what the mommy was saying from behind bars? Straight to our calls. Nalley in Texas. We`re taking your calls live. Hi, Nalley.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, in case they do find a body and it`s baby Gabriel, will she be brought back and charged with capital murder in the state of Texas?

GRACE: You know, Nalley in Texas, I prosecuted for a long, long time, not in the Lone Star state, but I`d be willing to put my money, if I were a gambling woman, on the fact that she will be prosecuted for the death penalty sentence if that baby is found in that diaper bag we are showing you tonight. That`s why they want to find the diaper bag, everybody, because what she told her husband -- excuse me, the biological father -- was that she killed the baby, she concealed the baby in a diaper bag. And this is what she was using as a diaper bag.

Liz, see if you can brighten that up a little bit. There you go. I believe it`s blue canvass with the tan or beige stripes. OK, that`s not helping me a lot, Liz. Go back to the other one. Police believe if the baby is dead, its body was concealed, its tiny body folded over and concealed in a bag like this. That`s why cops are looking for this.

But oh, yes, Nalley in Texas, she`s looking at the DP square in the eyes, death by the needle!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... around the world and around the United States to be looking out. He could be anywhere, not only San Antonio, he could be anywhere by now. And we just want everybody to be aware and keep a lookout.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIZABETH JOHNSON, GABRIEL`S MOTHER: Elizabeth Johnson, 7/24/86.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She appeared something totally different than she wound up being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse, a class 2 felony, and one count of kidnapping.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we feel quite duped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s currently facing charges of kidnapping, which is a class 2 felony, child abuse, which is a class 4 felony, and custodial interference.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is the only person who knows where Gabriel is, if he`s dead or alive.

GRACE: Telling the biological father that you smothered the baby, concealed his body in a diaper bag and threw him away in the trash is reason to suspect the child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based on her own statements going back and forth, we`ve shown that she`s not truthful.

JOHNSON: Everything that she said is so completely false.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s playing everybody like an absolute yo-yo. What she`s doing is cruel, vicious and absolutely inhumane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was kind of weird the way he was acting and the way she was treating him. I did consider calling CPS.

MCQUEARY: It`s just always been up and down with her. I don`t know really what makes her tick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The longer we go, the -- it doesn`t help us any as far as trying to recover that child, wherever that child is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a homicide case. We`re still considering it as a missing person case, and we`re meeting to determine how we are going to proceed within the next couple days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What can you tell us about possible digging in a landfill?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to comment on that right now because the plans are not completed. So I don`t want to talk about that right now.

MCQUEARY: I said, Are you going to San Antonio? And she said yes. And I said, Well, where`s Gabriel? And she said, You know where he`s at. I already told you. And I asked her, Where is he? And she said that, I stuffed him in a diaper bag, and she suffocated him and put him in a diaper bag and put him in the dumpster. And I said -- you know, I was just kind of silent for a while and I didn`t really know what to say. I just kept saying, Where are you? Where are you? And then she kept going on. She said, You ruined my life, and this is what you deserve. And after that, I hung up on her, and that`s when I went to the Tempe Police Department.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. There`s a bombshell tonight in the search for little baby Gabriel. A witness has come forward who states that here she observed Mommy with a couple in their 30s, along with a Hispanic male. She was spotted with the male twice, is my understanding, and another time with the couple. This guy was about in his 20s. That`s all we know right now. We know nothing more. But was he a baby broker? We are taking your calls live.

Out to you, Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, what more can you tell me?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this landfill that they`re looking at is called Tessman Road landfill there in San Antonio. Apparently, according to the managers there -- who are, by the way, standing by, ready to work with police if they do start excavating -- they say this is a very sophisticated landfill. Like you mentioned before, they are able to go in...

GRACE: Whoa! Wait, wait right there. Ellie...

JOSTAD: Yes?

GRACE: ... how can a landfill be sophisticated?

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, they are able to actually pinpoint the location where a particular load of garbage was taken from. They can say -- if they pick up trash, say, at 5:00 o`clock on, you know, Main Street, they can say where that truck went, where it dropped it off. They can cordon off that area. They can make sure that no more trash is dumped there and so they can preserve what could potentially be a crime scene, if there are remains in that landfill.

GRACE: OK, Ellie, refresh our viewers` recollection, the date baby Gabriel was last seen alive, I believe December 26th.

JOSTAD: That`s right, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Dr. Robert Cartwright, our expert joining us tonight from the Atlanta jurisdiction. His expertise, children. Dr. Cartwright, it has been since Christmas that we know of that this child was last seen. We know he was alive December 26th. If that child -- and it may be different for various modes of death, but if that child was murdered by his mother December 27th and was in that landfill, in a dump, since that time, what would police expect to find, if anything?

DR. ROBERT C. CARTWRIGHT, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, it certainly is a -- going to be a mess. I think that`s the easiest thing to say. And I think it would depend on...

GRACE: Dr. Cartwright -- please put Dr. Cartwright up.

CARTWRIGHT: I think, basically...

GRACE: Dr. Cartwright, I know that much. I don`t have an M.D.

CARTWRIGHT: Yes. Right.

GRACE: I`ve only got a J.D.

CARTWRIGHT: No.

GRACE: I know it`s a mess. Could you be a little bit more specific?

CARTWRIGHT: Sure. Absolutely. So basically, though, it would depend on whether the body was wrapped in something. If it was simply in a bag with no other, you know, wrapping around it, you may expect more degradation of the remains. If there was some preservation involved with some sort of plastic wrap or something like that, a garbage bag, perhaps, you might be expecting to find something a little bit more.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Cartwright, actually, I find that to be a very astute answer because, typically, when mothers kill their baby, they don`t just drop it somewhere. They will cover it up. They will wrap it up. I don`t know if it`s some innate instinct.

What about it, Danielle Levy, clinical psychologist? Why the need to cover up the baby`s body by Mommy?

DANIELLE LEVY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It could be just to provide a - - some kind of nurturing or to cover up some kind of guilt that she may be feeling, also not to see a baby that she killed. It would make it a lot easier.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SMITH, HOPED TO ADOPT GABRIEL: We are for the finding of this baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why the Smiths are still involved in this story.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they just kinds of people who like to help out and are kind of gullible and get themselves into things? I don`t know.

JACK SMITH: It`s clear we have no idea where Gabriel is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes we get information and it seems as though, you know -- let me just say that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t give you the whole story from the get- go. Is that what you`re saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they still holding out on you right now, you believe?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, I believe so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And in just a few moments, joining us and taking your calls live will be Jack and Tammi Smith. Remember, they wanted desperately to adopt this little baby.

I want to go back out very quickly to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what can you tell me about a phone call Mommy had from behind bars with the Smiths, this adoptive couple, that never got to get the baby...

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: ... where she blames them for hooking her up with this -- this couple in their mid-30s?

JOSTAD: Right. Well, supposedly, Tammi Smith got a phone call from Elizabeth Johnson. She`s calling from behind bars. And apparently, she then, Elizabeth Johnson, came out with his accusation or claim, you know, that, You guys, meaning the Smiths, are the ones who set this whole thing up. You`re the ones who set me up with the couple. Now, the Smiths deny this. They say they didn`t do it. So it appears that now Elizabeth Johnson is trying to throw the blame back on the Smiths.

GRACE: Or at least conjure up the fact maybe there was this couple, you know, and confuse the police.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Out to you, Marc Klaas, special guest, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, what do you make of this recent development? Just as cops are set to start searching a landfall, we find out about a witness who spots Mommy with this Hispanic male, I believe three times total, and one of those times is with a couple in their mid- 30s.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, it certainly is encouraging news. I mean, it lends credence to the idea that she may, in fact, have given the child to another couple. But I`m like you. I don`t understand why, given the fact that she told the father that she had murdered the baby and thrown him in a dumpster, that they haven`t been looking in that landfill long before this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Analisa, I want to go back to the Enfamil that you saw, this baby formula. Was it a can of dried Enfamil?

URIAS: Yes, it was.

GRACE: OK, how much was left in the can?

URIAS: It was full. It looked like maybe she had used it maybe once or twice, but it was completely full.

GRACE: OK. How many bottles did you see?

URIAS: He only had one bottle.

GRACE: Did you see a sterilizer to sterilize the bottles?

URIAS: No, I didn`t.

GRACE: That would have probably been set up at a sink. OK. So no sterilizer. And as far as food goes, how many jars of baby food did you see?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOGAN MCQUEARY, FATHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: If she does go into one of her rages she won`t calm down unless she`s ready to calm down.

TAMMI PETERS SMITH, SPOKE TO ELIZABETH JOHNSON BEHIND BARS, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: I just could read it in her face that she did not want to be a mother.

ANALISA URIAS, ALLEGEDLY BABYSAT BABY GABRIEL IN SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS: She wasn`t, you know, affectionate with Gabriel on anything. It didn`t seem like she, you know, really wanted him.

MCQUEARY: Yes, I do believe she did -- she`d give him away.

T. SMITH: We want to believe that somebody has that baby.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: At least one witness told authorities that Johnson was in the company of a Hispanic man on at least two occasions while staying in San Antonio. The man was in his mid to late 20s and was about 5`9".

NANCY GRACE, HOST: What was the description she gave you, as best as you can remember, verbatim of this couple, that took baby Gabriel?

T. SMITH: She said they were in their mid-30s, about -- the man was tall, not fat but kind of big. He had short, dark, really dark hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s two possibilities. That Gabriel is -- that she killed Gabriel or that she did not. There were and are some indications that he may be alive. I will tell you that since early on in those investigations those strong indicators that we`ve had aren`t there to the degree that they were.

GRACE: Who was it that called her on the phone and they were -- it was very contentious, they were arguing on the phone. Who was that?

URIAS: She told me it was her grandmother. I mean, I don`t know if that`s who it really was. But that`s what she told me.

GRACE: OK. Grandmother. All right, Analisa, what, to the best of your recollection, was she saying back to the grandmother?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Is this just another hoax like Casey Anthony? The tot mom who says a Hispanic woman, Zenaida Gonzalez, took her baby, too, in a public park?

Doesn`t that ring eerily similar to this story? But if this story is true, it`s a whole new ball game tonight.

Tonight, apparently an eyewitness has come forward that places mommy with a couple, a couple in their mid-30s, along with a sighting of her with a Hispanic male twice. And he was with her with this couple.

Is he a baby broker?

We are taking your calls live. I want to go to Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, VP, Scotts-Roberts and associates, joining us out of Miami.

Andrew, thank you for being with us.

ANDREW J. SCOTT, FORMER CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; VP OR SCOTT- ROBERTS & ASSOCIATES, LLC.: My pleasure.

GRACE: If they know the spot, the spot where this diaper bag would be, why don`t they just search it? What`s the problem?

SCOTT: Well.

GRACE: Are there not enough people to look for the baby and search for the body?

SCOTT: No, I don`t think that`s the case at all. I think that`s been the $64,000 question as to why they haven`t gone to the dump as of yet until just recently, where they`re planning to go.

It`s kind of bizarre unless they have solid leads that indicate that the baby is still alive. But regardless you`d definitely want to get into that dump, get into that area, start searching it and preserve, if any evidence, that they could find.

It`s going to be a monumental task.

GRACE: Listen, Andrew Scott. If they -- even if they know where the diaper bag is, and we`re honing in on the diaper bag because now cops are saying they want to find the diaper bag.

They`re putting out the APB, all person`s alert, on this diaper bag because mommy tells daddy on the phone, as well as texting him, but tell him on the phone, I killed the baby, I put him in the diaper bag, and I threw him in the trash.

All right. It would be that diaper bag.

Here`s deal, Andrew Scott. If she did kill the baby, the longer they wait the less evidence they`re going to find. They`re all ready -- forget about cause of death. All right? We`re not going to get that now. The baby, if it is dead, is on its way to being partially skeletonized.

It`s out in a dump. You remember Lori Hacking? Is that name ringing a bell? Her husband killed her. It was at least six months before they found her in a dump. And what they found was some of her hair and a bone. That`s what she looked like in life.

That is the man that killed her and threw her in a dump.

So that`s what cops are looking at every day they delay. Yes/no, Andrew Scott?

SCOTT: You`re absolutely right. The more they delay the less evidentiary value there will be if there`s indeed a baby that`s found dead. So that delay is going to cause more deterioration of any physical evidence that they can find.

GRACE: Joining us right now, special guest, Tammi Peters Smith and Jack Smith. The would-be adoptive couple out of Arizona.

Both of you, thank you for being with us. To you, Jack Smith, why is this witness just coming forward or has this witness been out there all along and we`re just hearing about it?

JACK SMITH, SPOKE TO ELIZABETH JOHNSON BEHIND BARS, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: We just heard about it this morning. We got the call about that because it was -- seems as though it was being somewhat held under wraps. But it`s our understanding that the police have known about this for quite some time. We weren`t made aware of it until this morning.

GRACE: Huh. Well, you know, another thing to you, Tammi Smith.

T. SMITH: Yes.

GRACE: I would love to know who this person is, but she did say she was with a male with dark hair, I believe she said he was Hispanic and a woman with long, blond hair. Did she not?

T. SMITH: She did. Wait, did you say the man was Hispanic?

GRACE: Yes.

T. SMITH: She -- Elizabeth didn`t say he was Hispanic. She just said he had very, dark short, very dark hair.

GRACE: OK.

T. SMITH: She didn`t say Hispanic.

GRACE: And plus there`s another male in the scenario. There`s a man and a woman, couple in their mid-30s and then there`s a Hispanic male. So I don`t know which one has dark hair. But I know one of them according to her has dark hair.

And I also know this witness looks at the man and says he`s Hispanic. Now what does that mean? I don`t know. But that`s how the witness described the male.

Now here`s the other thing. As best as you can, Tammi, in a nutshell, you get a call or you set up a call with Elizabeth, mommy, from behind bars. Whatever. You`re on a phone call with her and suddenly she says, look, it`s on you, you`re the one that set me up with this couple. Is that essentially what she says?

T. SMITH: I didn`t set up the call. I have a cell phone, and she shouldn`t even be allowed to call a cell phone. They`re not supposed to be able to do a.

GRACE: Don`t care. Don`t care. Don`t care how you got on the phone. Fast forward. OK?

T. SMITH: OK.

GRACE: What does she say about you setting up the meeting with this couple?

T. SMITH: She was just yelling at me saying this is all my fault, that I set this up, and I said, what are you talking about? I didn`t set anything up. And I asked her, how did I set this up? And she couldn`t tell me. I said, what`s their names? I don`t know. Well, then what`s their phone number? I don`t know. So she really didn`t.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. When was this conversation, Tammi?

T. SMITH: At my house, on my cell phone.

GRACE: No, when. When was this?

T. SMITH: I`m sorry, when? I think it was maybe last Thursday or something?

J. SMITH: Thursday or Friday.

T. SMITH: I think it was about a week ago.

GRACE: OK. Last Thursday. Today is Monday. So you got Sunday, Saturday, Friday, Thursday. Four days ago.

T. SMITH: I wrote it -- I wrote everything down.

GRACE: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Got it.

J. SMITH: 28th. I think it was the 28th.

GRACE: That was wise that you write everything down.

Unleash the lawyers. Famed attorney out of San Francisco, John Burris. Also, well known attorney out of the New York jurisdiction, Stacey Schneider.

John, all right. I don`t know that I believe anything that this woman says. If there wasn`t another witness that spotted her I wouldn`t believe it. Here she is, confronting Tammi Smith on the phone apparently for the benefit of those listening. A reporter or a lawyer, whoever, to suggest she was part of this whole thing.

John Burris, if you could work a deal right now for this woman, give me your best-case scenario if the baby`s alive, what would the deal be?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what you try to work out here is that she would not be prosecuted for kidnapping. She would not be prosecuted for that.

GRACE: You know you`re making.

BURRIS: She`d plea to some minor.

GRACE: You`re giving me angina. All right? Don`t do that to me, all right?

BURRIS: I know, but.

GRACE: The twins need a mother.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: All right. You know what? Never mind.

BURRIS: That`s what she wants. And that`s what I want for her.

GRACE: She`s going to get prosecuted. All right?

BURRIS: No, no. I just said she gets prosecuted. Now she gets prosecuted but she doesn`t get prosecuted for, like, a major crime. She cuts a deal maybe for county jail time. She gets prosecuted. I`m just saying that she doesn`t get prosecuted for the more serious crime.

GRACE: All right. OK.

BURRIS: And that`s what I`m really telling you.

GRACE: John Burris, always a dreamer.

BURRIS: You cut the deal for her.

GRACE: Always a dreamer. Stacey Schneider, 20 seconds, what`s the best deal you can cut her?

STACEY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would try to get rid of those felonies, try to get the custodial interference down to a misdemeanor charge, and possibly try to avoid jail time but she`d probably do a little bit on the misdemeanor. But certainly not as much as she`d do on felony conviction.

GRACE: OK, when we come back, the scenarios regarding if the baby is not alive.

Breaking news tonight. The search for baby Gabriel. We`re taking your calls live. As we go to break, happy birthday to Mississippi friends, tiny crime fighters, Madison and Mackenzie from Sosha, Mississippi.

Celebrating their third and first birthdays. Doctors when they were born didn`t give them much of a chance. They beat the odds. They are the beautiful daughters of parents Nick and Andrea. This past Friday they had a big birthday party with all of their family there.

Happy birthday, Madison and Mackenzie.

And happy 28th to North Carolina friend, Lori Duggar. She`s a professional animal grouper. Loves riding her horse, Spade, rodeo and most of all playing with niece, Emma. Lori`s mom, Martha, never misses the show.

Now isn`t she beautiful? Happy birthday, Lori.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

T. SMITH: She`s the last one with the baby. She had motive to get rid of the baby. She`s the one that`s fleeing. She`s the one who won`t cooperate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s prepared to stick to her story and stay in jail as long as is necessary.

MCQUEARY: I want to believe that she did give him away so that maybe he`s safe and he`s with a -- you know, somebody that`s taking care of him right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s currently facing charges of kidnapping which is a class 2 felony, child abuse which is a class 4 felony, and custodial interference.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is there anything you want to ask me or tell me?

ELIZABETH JOHNSON, MOTHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: Ask you -- I don`t really know what to say. Everything is so false.

MCQUEARY: I do believe she`d give him away and not really care about it because she didn`t really seem like, you know, she was never really around. I kind of see how it was kind of easy for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has definitely shown some unpredictable behavior in the past. So when she says that she killed that baby and threw him in a dumpster, is that a credible threat? Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Tonight there`s breaking news in the search for baby Gabriel. A witness has come forward stating that they observed -- he or she -- observed mommy, right there in prison orange, with a couple in their mid-30s along with a Hispanic male.

Is he a baby broker and did they take the baby?

I want to go out to Marc Klaas, president, founder of KlaasKids Foundation.

Marc, how do these baby brokers work?

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I`m not sure how baby brokers work, but when you get down to it, I mean, I think you`re talking about human trafficking.

GRACE: I am.

KLAAS: If you`re not dealing within the system, if you`re dealing under the system in gray areas.

GRACE: You know what, Marc, stop. Please forgive me. You`re right. You`re right. That was a euphemism for human trafficking and I should not have called it baby broker. That`s really putting the perfume on the pig. To call it a baby broker.

This is illegal. The father wants the baby and this mom is telling people she killed the baby.

Now, explain to me with your knowledge of human trafficking, how this kind of deal works.

KLAAS: Well, basically, the way it works is -- this kid is the perfect baby to broker. He`s 8 months old. He`s malleable. He`s beautiful. He`s got a mother that`s willing to give him up.

So you put him together with people who are looking for a child for whatever reason, to raise them as their own or for more nefarious reasons, and you can make some pretty quick deals.

But obviously, we see that there`s something terribly wrong with this because whoever did this, if in fact this actually did occur, knows very well that the whole world is looking for this child and they`re not forthcoming about it. And there`s something terribly wrong and something terribly cruel about that.

GRACE: Well, John Burris, don`t you think by now if this story were true the mom would have said, OK, I met this guy online. I did a deal for the baby. That would explain where she got the money, who the Hispanic male was, who the couple was if they exist.

Or is this just more -- for lack of a better legal term, more B.S. this mom is spewing?

BURRIS: Well, it could be B.S., but on the same time, she probably -- if it is true she does have some criminal charges pending, so a lawyer would probably and should be trying to negotiate something for her. But if it`s not true then she`s probably wise to keep her mouth shut right now to see what really develops around whether this baby is found de or not.

Because that`s a very -- homicide is a very serious offense. But if the baby is alive and she has done something she should be trying to cut a deal. Her lawyer should be trying to cut one for her.

GRACE: Stacey Schneider, this sounds like the same strategy that Casey Anthony used behind bars. I didn`t do it, I didn`t do it, a Hispanic person stole the baby from me in a public park.

Same story until the body`s found. Is that what she`s waiting on?

SCHNEIDER: It seems like it, Nancy. I mean this is just -- she knows what she did. What kind of mother doesn`t cooperate with authorities in locating their child? I don`t care how angry you are at the father.

These are stories -- she`s very diabolical. She knows what she`s going to say. She puts out these phone calls and says certain things to set people up and set the stage how she wants it. She`s just covering up and it`s a terrible situation. I would not want to defend this one.

GRACE: Back to Dr. Robert C. Cartwright, his specialty, children.

Dr. Cartwright, you know in a lot of photos that emerged that she took right before the baby goes missing he`s sucking on a Tylenol bottle.

How dangerous is a Tylenol overdose for a little baby this size? I mean he`s 8 months old. He probably doesn`t weigh over, I don`t know, 10 or 11 pounds.

DR. ROBERT C. CARTWRIGHT, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN & ALLERGIST: We certainly tend to think that Tylenol is an otherwise harmless drug. But certainly in higher concentrations it is very dangerous. It is lethal.

It causes significant liver damage to the point of basically killing your liver which doesn`t bode well for him. So, you know, the idea that he`s playing with a bottle of medicine, no matter what the medicine is, is just -- is horrible. And something that just really does speak to what kind of situation he`s living in.

GRACE: To Dr. Danielle Levy, clinical psychologist joining us out of Atlanta, thank you again for being with us.

Doctor, you have seen all the photos. You`ve studied the case file here. The mom just lies. She can`t help herself. Compulsively. Don`t you think the fact that she tried to drag the Smiths into this lie suggests the whole thing is a lie?

DANIELLE LEVY, PSY. D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, certainly she`s told lies along the way because her statements have been inconsistent. I think that the Smiths, though, were willing to take Gabriel and maybe that potentially gave her an idea that she could other people to take Gabriel off of her hands.

I think she made it clear early on that she didn`t necessarily want to raise this baby. So perhaps it`s great news that witnesses saw her with another couple.

GRACE: I`m just wondering, you know, Ellie, is this witness -- have they come forward to the police or did they go to a news outlet?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, it`s not clear if they have spoken to police. But we know that they have spoken to one of the local affiliates there in San Antonio.

GRACE: To Jack Smith. Jack Smith, during your conversation -- you and your wife`s conversation with the mother last week, what else does she reveal, other than accusing you and Tammi of wrongdoing?

J. SMITH: Nancy, I wasn`t -- I was just on the -- hearing the back side of the -- one side of the conversation. You know, it seemed very, very strange, very scattered, very -- almost like she was scared and frightened. And she should be.

GRACE: What about it, Tammi? What else did she say?

T. SMITH: She was concerned about three people out of the country talking about this case.

GRACE: Why?

T. SMITH: I don`t know. That`s my big question to the police.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Emily in New York, hi, Emily.

EMILY, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

EMILY: I`d like to know where this girl`s parents are. Why are they.

GRACE: Her parents are dead. She bounced from foster home to foster home. She does still have her grandparents. And in fact, that`s whose car she took off in, was her grandfather`s car. He loaned it to her to go to a job interview, which was a lie.

To June in Florida, hi, June. Debbie in Kentucky, hi, Debbie.

DEBBIE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, friend.

DEBBIE: I love you, sweetheart. I love your twins. My husband, Dale, and them share a birthday. God bless you for what you do.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you.

DEBBIE: My question is, I think you pretty much answered it, the little baby at the end of the pictures, the little baby is definitely drugged. He is definitely drugged.

GRACE: Oh, yes. In fact, Debbie, Kentucky, she said to the babysitter who came on our show, I just doped him up, but if he starts cry, just give him some more. So, you know, you should see me trying to measure out Motrin for the twins.

I`m a nervous wreck. I put it on the counter and then get down and look at it because I don`t want to give them too much. And this mom clearly doped her child. There`s no nice way to put it.

Kim, California, hi, Kim. June, Florida, hi, June.

JUNE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. Can you hear me?

GRACE: Yes, my love, what`s your question?

JUNE: I watch you every night and I love you. Thank you for everything you do. My question is, she got on the bus in San Antonio with a bag.

GRACE: Right.

JUNE: Is there any way possible that, God forbid, she had that baby in the bag, the baby was already dead, and on one of the stops the bus made.

GRACE: She discarded it.

JUNE: Yes.

GRACE: Ellie Jostad, do we have a shot of her walking to the bus station and we know what bag it was? It was a duffel bag, right?

JOSTAD: Well -- no, actually, when she was leaving the hotel, remember, we had heard that she had a backpack with her. And also an employee of the bus station said that she had just a regular backpack on her.

GRACE: And I`m sure police have located those in the youth hostel.

Everybody, let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Joshua Blaney, 25, Matthews, North Carolina. On a third tour. He was inspired by his uncle to enlist, a vet. He was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, Afghanistan Campaign.

Remembered for compassion, loving heart, loved military, movies, video games, time with family and friends. Leaves behind parents, Diane, Charles, stepfather Eric, one brother and one sister. Grandfather, Sydney. A World War II veteran.

Joshua Blaney, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially for being with us. And a special good night from Georgia friends, Mary and Tom. She is a renowned preschool teacher. All of her students love her. And P.S., she taught Ryan Seacrest. They are the parents of our medical expert tonight, Dr. Robert Cartwright.

And thank you to Arizona friend of the show, Mary, for these blankets. She`s a special ed teacher, 37 years. And here is her dog, Coconut Grace, named after my kitty cat Coconut. She lured him into the shot by holding Bore`s head ham.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END