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Campbell Brown
Another Toyota Recall; New Orleans Celebrates Super Bowl Victory
Aired February 08, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
Breaking news tonight, that's where we start, Toyota recalling its 2010 Prius hybrids worldwide. We are going to have a live report from Tokyo talking about what we think is going on.
But we are going to start as always with the "Mash-Up." We are watching it all, so you don't have to.
And our top story tonight, an incredible rescue in Haiti, a 28- year-old man pulled from the rubble. This is nearly a month after the quake. He is severely dehydrated, malnourished, confused, but alive. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Twenty-eight days that we're hearing that he was buried. It's kind of hard to believe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Well, he was emaciated. It was obvious that he hadn't had anything really to drink or eat in quite some time. He had open wounds that were festering on both of his feet. And the story that we were told is that he was actually trapped under the rubble in the marketplace. And as they were digging through that (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who you just saw there, is at the hospital in Haiti where the survivor is being treated right now, and he's going to join us shortly.
Sarah Palin taking some heat today for using crib notes written on her hand during her appearance at the National Tea Party Convention. The speech got lots of attention over the weekend. In case you didn't hear it, listen to what she said about President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: This was all part of that hope and change and transparency, and now a year later I got to ask those supporters of all that, how's that hopey, changey stuff working out for you?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The ex-governor sure seemed to be preaching to the converted. Here's what some of the tea partiers told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I thought it was awesome. Sarah is just so wholesome, down-to-earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's every mother. She's every daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She walks the walk. She talks the talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is every wife. She's every young businesswoman. So, that is her appeal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gosh, I felt so comfortable with her. I loved some of her responses. And her answers were great. And I just -- I felt so proud to be an American. I loved it when they said President Palin. That was just -- that just -- oh, that made me feel great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I say let's vote right now. I would vote for her. She's a Christian lady. And that's what we need in there, a Christian individual, not a questionable individual, but a Christian individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Some of the folks there at the Tea Party Convention this weekend. Palin told FOX News she would consider running for president in 2012 if she thought it was right for the country and for her family.
Michael Jackson's doctor surrendered today in Los Angeles to face charges of involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's death. Dr. Conrad Murray, who was with Jackson when he died, entered a plea of not guilty. Jackson's parents, four of his brothers and one sister filled the first two rows of the courtroom today. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After the short hearing was over, Jermaine Jackson commented briefly about his thoughts and his family's thoughts about what's going on.
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: We're not happy at all.
ROWLANDS: What the family was hoping for was a more severe charge, possibly second-degree murder. But, in the end, after the DA analyzed the evidence against Murray, they decided that first -- or that involuntary manslaughter was what they wanted to proceed with.
One of the things that really jumps out is the coroner's opinion about the cause of death, and specifically propofol. That's that strong anesthesia that Murray gave Jackson in his home. The coroner says that the way that it was used basically in the coroner's opinion wasn't proper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, Dr. Murray is out on bail and free to practice medicine, although the judge did impose one restriction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In other words, I don't want you sedating people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: At the top of the hour on CNN, "LARRY KING LIVE" has an exclusive interview with Michael Jackson's father, Joe Jackson.
And in New Orleans, they're letting the good times roll tonight as Who Dat Nation celebrates the incredible Super Bowl victory of the New Orleans Saints. And take a look at the scene today as the team returned from Miami.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reggie Bush. Go, Reggie!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The excitement is here. We have been just with them cheering all season.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gregg Williams.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who dat, baby!
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: The New Orleans Saints' victory in the Super Bowl shows that we're building better than we were before Katrina. This isn't the same old New Orleans Saints. This isn't the same old Louisiana.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Saints' official victory parade tomorrow expected to draw record-breaking crowds, and we are going to have more on the Super Bowl champs a little bit later in the hour.
Time now for a shout-out to our own Candy Crowley, who took over as anchor of CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" on Sunday. Candy's first guest was Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. And she didn't hold back, talking about everything from the government of the Afghanistan to her daughter Chelsea's wedding. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CANDY CROWLEY, HOST, "STATE OF THE UNION": I'm Candy Crowley, and this is "STATE OF THE UNION."
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Candy, first of all, congratulations on your new show.
CROWLEY: No doubts that Karzai is the man to pull this together? Has Iran unclenched its fist? Colts or the Saints? Which is harder, Middle East peace or negotiating this wedding?
(LAUGHTER)
CROWLEY: 2004 called, and they want their issue back. This is exactly what people hate about Washington. What is this budget about?
I'm Candy Crowley in Washington, and this is "STATE OF THE UNION."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yes, "STATE OF THE UNION" airs Sunday mornings, 9:00, on CNN.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. This is courtesy of David Letterman. It's of course the surprise hit of the Super Bowl. And we just couldn't resist taking another look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": This is the worst Super Bowl party ever.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW": Now, Dave, be nice.
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE JAY LENO SHOW": Oh, he's just saying that because I'm here.
LETTERMAN: Oh, he's just saying that because I'm here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And "New York" magazine is reporting that Conan O'Brien was approached for the spot, but said he was too busy. And that is the "Mash-Up."
When we come back, if you own a 2010 Toyota Prius, listen up. A worldwide recall is on the way.
Also, our special investigation into Toyota's problems, experts telling us the company may have no idea what is really going on with its sticking gas pedals -- more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news right now. CNN has learned Toyota will announce a worldwide recall of its 2010 Prius hybrids because of problems with the brakes. And this of course comes after more than eight million other Toyotas were recalled for sticking gas pedals.
CNN's Kyung Lah is joining me Tokyo right now with more on this.
And just break it down for us, Kyung Lah. Why this recall happening now?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there was so much discussion over the last few days, a lot of media reports that the Prius recall was imminent, a lot of back and forth, though, inside Toyota, a lot of discussion about whether or not this really needed to just be a customer service call, saying, hey, bring your car in, or if it needed to be a global recall.
The decision? A global recall. The way we understand it, according to a source with knowledge of this matter, that the recall will begin here in Tokyo, a global recall announcement. Then when the U.S. opens up for business in about 10 hours, NHTSA will be notified that there will be a recall also in the United States and will happen around the globe with the different various governments.
Toyota taking this step because they say they want to protect the reputation, especially of its crown jewel, the Prius, the 2010 Prius, widely seen here in Japan as Toyota's future, Campbell.
BROWN: So, what happens next in terms of this company? Is anybody being held accountable for this? Do you think the head of Toyota is going to be able to keep his job?
LAH: Well, we are hearing a lot of rumors and discussion, especially on the editorial pages about Akio Toyoda, a lot of calls up until he did make that news conference on Friday about where he was.
He was largely absent for two weeks, not responding to the global customer about, hey, what is happening with my accelerator, what is happening with the floor mat, and now what's happening with the Prius brakes?
So, what we're expecting is that Akio Toyoda may -- this is not confirmed yet -- but he may be the one who is going to face some media today. There is continuing discussion within Toyota about whether or not he should be the one making the announcement.
Some people say he should. Some people say he shouldn't. And, again, at the end of the day, whether or not he should keep a job, a lot of discussion at least on the editorial pages of whether or not he should. In Japan, if your company fails, the top of the company is often held responsible, Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Kyung Lah with the very latest for us on this breaking news out of Tokyo tonight.
Kyung, thanks very much.
We are going to stay with the Toyota story. When we come back, we are going to tell you what to do if you're a Prius owner. We have got a lot of information on the Web site we can share with you. Plus, a special investigation. Automotive experts are telling CNN they don't think that Toyota even knows why it's having so many problems with millions of its cars and trucks. We're going to get into that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news tonight: CNN has learned Toyota will announce a worldwide recall of its 2010 Prius hybrids because of a problem with the brakes, and that means, of course, if you own a Prius, you should probably be getting in touch with your dealer first thing tomorrow morning to learn the latest on what you need to do if you have a Toyota.
You can go to CNN.com/Toyota. But we should tell you, even before tonight's breaking news, again, that Toyota is recalling the Prius, the carmaker was in full damage control mode. Case in point, new Toyota TV commercials trying to reassure owners about the other cars. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: We have a fix for our recalls. We stopped production, so we could focus on our customers' cars first. And technicians are making repairs. We're working around the clock to ensure we build vehicles of the highest quality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. So, those ads running right now, but tonight, Drew Griffin of CNN's special investigations unit talks to a group of automotive experts who are not convinced that Toyota really knows what is behind its safety crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a hastily called news conference, an apology at 9:00 Friday night near Tokyo, the president of Toyota, Akio Toyoda, saying he's sorry for the global recall, but declaring, "Believe me, Toyota's cars are safe."
On the company's Web site, a clear explanation for the sudden acceleration problems, stuck floor mats, sticky gas pedals, and a fix. It's all mechanical, the company says, and it's solved.
But is it?
SEAN KANE, SAFETY RESEARCH AND STRATEGIES: I would say, unequivocally, that Toyota's explanations do not account for the share of unintended acceleration complaints that we have examined.
GRIFFIN: CNN talked with four leading experts in the field of sudden acceleration, car safety and automotive recalls. Despite Toyota's statements, these experts independently conclude something very difficult: Toyota does not know what is causing the sudden acceleration in its cars, and, therefore, doesn't really know how to fix them.
ANTONY ANDERSON, ELECTRONICS CONSULTANT: From what people have told me about their sudden acceleration incidents, most of them have got nothing to do with a sticking pedal at all.
GRIFFIN: Why? Sean Kane with Safety Research and Strategies, an automotive safety consulting firm that had tracked the sudden acceleration complaints literally for years now, says follow the data, 2,200 incidents, 815 crashes, 18 deaths. Some, yes, are floor mats. Some, yes, he says, may be a stuck gas pedal. But that's the problem. The records show just some of the problems explained.
KANE: We're seeing thousands of complaints from consumers that report very consistent types of problems across a number of years, makes and models. We're seeing these long duration on highway events. We're seeing short duration in parking lot events. There's a series of patterns that are emerging that cannot be explained.
GRIFFIN: Kane says electronics are the likely culprit, interference with the car computer's systems. From his home in England, Dr. Antony Anderson he has looked at the same U.S. government data.
ANDERSON: Sudden accelerations really can't be explained by drivers pressing their foot down on the accelerator, pedal, can't be explained by floor mats, loose floor mats, nor by sticky pedals, because the characteristic of these things is that they, the vehicles tend to take off by themselves, with no input from the driver.
GRIFFIN: Toyota insists, that's just not true. In a statement to CNN, the company says, "After many years of exhaustive testing by us and by other organizations, we have found no evidence of an electronic problem in our electronic throttle control systems that could have led to unwanted acceleration."
Clarence Ditlow with the Center For Auto Safety says he obtained a copy of one of those U.S. government tests on a Lexus and found it amateurish.
CLARENCE DITLOW, CENTER FOR AUTO SAFETY: They didn't do any real testing. For all I know, they just took, you know, a garage door opener and pointed it at the engine compartment and snapped it. And that's electrical interference to see whether or not anything happened. They closed the hood and off they went. No problem.
GRIFFIN: He points to the test by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, NHTSA, for proof, a test track where a floor mat is jammed on the accelerator. The test driver punches every button, shift gears, does anything he can to try to stop the car with no results. The conclusion? It's the floor mat. Ditlow's conclusion, it's not the way to test.
DITLOW: If you're going to investigate whether or not the electronic controls are faulty, you have to do a scientific laboratory test, and they didn't do it. GRIFFIN: Inside the Electronics Lab at the University of Maryland's Clark School of Engineering, Professor Mike Pecht specializes in laboratory-controlled interference testing. He says with today's continually changing car components, parts suppliers, and reliance on heavy electronics, the testing in noisy labs like his must be complete and continuous.
DR. MICHAEL PECHT, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: They need to continuously be testing these products. You just can't test one day and say, oh, there's the product, unless they can make sure that there's been no other changes, and that's very difficult today.
GRIFFIN: And that, he says, may be the heart of Toyota's problem.
(on camera): Professor, I realize you're trying to be careful and may be reluctant to say some things, but the floor mats don't seem to be the problem. A mechanical fix in the gas pedal doesn't seem to be the problem. In fact, the problem seems to be that Toyota at this point in time does not know the problem, and, therefore, does not know how to fix it.
PECHT: I think that -- I think that the evidence is pointing that way. I think the evidence is pointing that way, absolutely.
GRIFFIN: So, any fix is not a fix?
PECHT: So, they're a little bit of a quandary. If they announce that the electronics is a problem, they're going to probably be in a lot of trouble, because nobody is going to want to drive the car. So, I think, at this stage, they don't want to announce that there's an electronics problem.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): In its statement to us, a Toyota spokesperson said -- quote -- "It's very easily to look from outside in and say, no, there is no problem with the pedal. But this is the problem, and we are fixing it."
In fact, Toyota says, two days ago, NHTSA said it will take a fresh look into the general issue of electromagnetic interference into the auto industry as a whole, not just related to Toyota.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Drew Griffin is with me right now.
So, Drew, why would Toyota do this? If the company doesn't know what the problem is, and doesn't know how to fix it, why go out on a limb, and according -- at least according to the experts you have interviewed, not tell the entire truth to its own customers?
GRIFFIN: Good question, Campbell.
It may be just an example of bad crisis management. Quite frankly, these experts don't know why Toyota is doing what it's doing, especially in this business and company, where reputation have meant so much. The emerges consensus -- and I did ask them, Campbell -- is either Toyota is not the company its customers may have thought it was in terms of quality and reputation, or the second opinion I heard was that, when this is over, Toyota is really going to regret how it handled all this.
BROWN: Yes. And these experts, Drew, they say the trouble is pointing to the electronics or an electronic issue, but they're not sure what it is either, right?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
No. And it's very difficult to actually find out, too many moving parts, you know? The problem is, it may be a quirk that happens at a certain time under certain conditions, certain interferences.
Here's the best explanation I heard from these guys. It's similar to when your computer crashes. The fix, you simply reboot it, Campbell. You turn it off, you turn it back on, and everything is fine. You never really find out what went wrong. The problem for Toyota, you can't reboot a car in motion.
BROWN: No kidding.
Drew Griffin with us tonight.
Drew, wow, fascinating stuff. Thank you.
And, again, for all the latest news on the Toyota recall on these safety issues, you can go to CNN.com/Toyota.
Coming up: prosecuting the mastermind of 9/11 terror attacks, President Obama weighing in, and where this trial will take place still unknown right now -- more on that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More news breaking out of Haiti tonight. A man has been pulled alive from the rubble of a building in Port-au-Prince. It's possible he had been trapped there since the earthquake hit nearly four weeks ago.
And we want to go right to chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is in Port-au-Prince.
And, Sanjay, describe how this all unfolded today.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's extraordinary, no matter how you look at this, Campbell.
We got a tip essentially that someone had been rescued today. We didn't have any details at that point, so we came to the place where the patient was brought, which is essentially the tents over here behind me.
We quickly talked to (AUDIO GAP) saw the patient, and what we came to learn, this was someone what was, it sounds like, pulled out of the rubble today and then brought to the hospital by people in that particular area.
He came in and he was quickly evaluated by the doctors, who said his vital signs were pretty stable, and that he was very dehydrated. His laboratories, his blood laboratories, reflected that. He had lost a lot of weight as well. He looked like someone who had been under the rubble for a long time.
He also told nurses and doctors I think something very important, which is that he seemed to remember someone in a white coat coming to him and bringing him water from time to time. And whether he was hallucinating or that was true, it's a little bit hard to say.
I talked to the doctor who first evaluated him about this, and I asked him, Campbell, I said, could this be possible, what we are hearing? Because this would be the longest known survivor of this earthquake. And, business, he said, look, he was emaciated. He had lost a lot of weight, but we have no reason to doubt the veracity of his story. We believe that, in fact, he did survive. He may have gotten water along the process.
But, as things stand now, nearly four weeks, one month later, it sounds like he's the longest known survivor.
BROWN: It's truly incredible.
I know, Sanjay, you also talked to his family, I believe, his brother and his mother, at the hospital. What did they have to say?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I wanted to get a real sense, you know, as to when they saw him last, what they thought about the whole thing. Did they know about water? Was someone giving him water? What was going on here?
I spoke to her. She speaks in Creole, but take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I thought he was dead, but God kept him from dying. I stayed strong. I thought that I would find him. I thought too that he could not be here alive. You couldn't see everything, but when he came out of the rubble, thank you, God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: They said they hadn't seen him since the day of the earthquake. They say that he had been working in a rice market. It was in that rice market that collapsed all around him. He was not -- he did not have a crush injury. He was sort of trapped in this area, but not pinned down, which could have been part of the reason he was able to survive this, as well, Campbell.
BROWN: And, Sanjay, I know, when you were talking to the man's family at the hospital, they were literally swarmed by the media there. Just describe the scene for us.
GUPTA: Yes. You know, we started this interview with Evan's mother -- Evan is the patient who was brought in today -- and Evan's brother.
And as we were doing this, there was such a rush of people wanting to get in there with their cameras, and you could see some of that going on there, Campbell. It really got me thinking. I was gone for a few days, have come back now.
I think there's such an interest in looking at these survivor stories and presenting some good news as well, but also looking at how things have changed over the last week even. Things have gotten better in many ways. Now, certainly, behind me, you have much more organization, you have much more resources. You have supplies. You have doctors performing operations now.
But there's also this sort of undercurrent that, what is going to happen one month, two months, three months from now? How are these patients going to continue to get care? This is sort of the landscape that's sort of evolving.
And I think, when something like this happens and possibly the longest known survivor, I there's just a real interest in people wanting to report that.
BROWN: Absolutely.
Sanjay Gupta back in Haiti for us for the foreseeable future.
Sanjay, as always, thank you very much.
And we do have some other news we have been tracking for you in Haiti we want to bring you up to speed on now involving those 10 missionaries charged with kidnapping, after trying to take 33 kids out of the country.
Well, tonight, we're learning that the group may have tried this once before.
CNN's Karl Penhaul also joining us from Port-au-Prince.
And -- and, Karl, tell us what -- what you learned today in court.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, this really came from out of court from other sources. But last week, we knew that investigators had called in a Haitian policeman for questioning. They were looking at him first as a suspect. Now it has emerged that he is a witness in this case.
I tracked down that Haitian police officer today and asked what he had seen, what he had testified. And he said that in the same week that the Americans had been arrested but earlier in that week, he shut down an earlier attempt by them to take more kids out of the country. He said that he saw the Americans with a large bus in the area of Petionville. And he said when he boarded that bus, the Americans had up to 40 children on the bus. He said he then asked Laura Silsby for the paperwork. Laura Silsby was unable to provide it. And so he ordered the children to get off the bus, in a sense shutting down their first attempt to get children out of the country.
He then directed Silsby to the Dominican embassy because Silsby said that she was able to have some Dominican paperwork commuting (ph) the kids out of the country. But she didn't mention then that she didn't have any Haitian paperwork.
Now this attempt that the Haitian police officer tells us that he shut down, was on a Tuesday and we know then on the following Friday the Americans were arrested with a separate group of 33 children. Now, the former defense lawyer for the Americans has corroborated that this testimony was given by the police by the policeman to prosecutors. And one of the interpreters for the Americans has also partially corroborated the story, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. So Karl, I just want to be absolutely clear here. So the American missionaries allegedly tried to get another group, this was an entirely different group of kids out of Haiti but they were stopped, told it was illegal and then they tried it again with a group of children they were arrested with, correct?
PENHAUL: Absolutely. We're talking about different groups of children with the first group of children that the policeman stopped from being taken away because he told the Americans that was illegal. It was on a Tuesday in a different part of Port-au-Prince. And then on Thursday, we understand the Americans then began to load the 33 children into a different bus, and that is the group that was eventually stopped at the Haitian border the following day, Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Karl. Boy, the story keeps getting stranger. Karl Penhaul with these new details for us tonight. Karl, thank you very much.
When we come back, will the 9/11 terror trial be moved out of New York City after all? President Obama throwing up some confusing smoke signals. What's really going on?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The debate over where to try the mastermind of 9/11 just got a little murkier perhaps. The administration got hammered for wanting to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a Manhattan federal courthouse just a few blocks from Ground Zero. Well, then the Justice Department seemed to cave and started to explore other options. Well, now, President Obama says a New York City trial could still happen maybe. Listen to what he told CBS's Katie Couric.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have not ruled it out, but I think it's important for us to take into account the practical, logistical issues involved. I mean, if you've got a city that is saying no and a police department that's saying no and a mayor that's saying no, that makes it difficult.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So what exactly is going on here? We want to check in with CNN national security contributor Fran Townsend, who is President Bush's homeland security adviser, and also CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin who's with me right now here in New York as well.
And, Jeff, I know you think this is a foregone conclusion it's not happening in New York.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's over now.
BROWN: That was actually my read on what he said, too, which was I just don't quite want to admit it's over yet.
TOOBIN: You know this subject has gone from a fairly controversial but settled decision to a political and legal train wreck. Because there is no answer out there, you have everybody fighting, but you don't have the administration, which really has the sole word over where this trial takes place. They are making no decision for week after week, and frankly, I think they look kind of ridiculous.
BROWN: How did it happen? How did this go from turning into this sort of headache for everybody?
TOOBIN: Well, I think part of it was a grassroots movement in Lower Manhattan that kept the issue alive. But to me the big issue was the Christmas Day attempted hijacking, which really ratcheted up attention on terrorism again, turned this issue into a political hot potato and I think it basically opened the floodgates of objections to this case. And the mayor, the police commissioner and now Senator Schumer all have said we don't want it here. And I think it makes it impossible to hold it here.
BROWN: Fran, why do you think the president continues to hedge a little bit? Why not just come out, the administration and say, you know, we're going to change the location. What's the big deal everybody?
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATL. SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Campbell, I think that's because they don't know where they're going to change it to. I think they're reluctant to admit that it's not going to be in Lower Manhattan until they have a place to move it to.
And actually one of the factors that Jeffrey didn't mention which I think actually complicates it even more is that Congress has decided they're going to have a say. Members of Congress have threatened to cut off funding for a civilian trial. We had a mayor in upstate New York and Newburgh who said he'd welcome the trial. I talked to his sheriff, the sheriff of Orange County that covers Newburgh last week, who said nobody talked to me about it and we don't want it here either.
And so that's why when the president says things like when you have a mayor that says no and you have a police commissioner that says no, he may have a lot of those. And I think it's going to be hard for them to find a place to have it.
TOOBIN: If I can add, they can't just decide we're going to hold the trial in Utah.
BROWN: Right.
TOOBIN: Or hold the trial in Illinois in this prison that they've renovated. There are legal rules about where you hold trials. You have to indictment someone in the district where they're charged. If you have -- are you going to have a military commission after the president explicitly said he didn't want a military commission? So it's not just like where you're going to put some pork barrel project. There are legal rules about where you try someone and it's unsettled.
BROWN: It has without question reoccupied a political debate. Right, Fran?
TOWNSEND: Oh, absolutely. And I think you're going to see members of Congress just like Senator Schumer has walked away from it. Other senators, other congressional representatives and other state and local officials are not going to want to be seen as embracing the idea of having this trial in their jurisdiction. So it really is a very -- as Jeffrey put it, it's a train wreck.
BROWN: Let me -- let me -- well, it's part of --
TOOBIN: That's a technical legal term.
BROWN: Right. Exactly. But it is part of a broader issue. You talked about the Christmas Day bombing that has all of these issues, I think it's fair to say have been clouded by politics.
And let me specifically ask you, Fran, about the pushback that Republicans are directing at the Obama administration now for charging Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab in a criminal court for reading him his Miranda rights right away instead of turning him over to military custody or making him an enemy combatant. The president again defending the decision arguing that, you know, this is how the Bush administration did it. What do you think should have happened? I mean, should he have been read his Miranda rights right off the bat or not?
TOWNSEND: Well, you know, it has become -- it's all very Washington (ph) for us to have this debate at all. I mean, in the end, you could have had a more practical approach which might have been to have him initially debriefed for a longer period of time in a military commission type environment and still put him into a criminal process. And there's going to be debates about whether or not he stopped talking because he was given Miranda. Yesterday on the Sunday show "Meet the Press," John Brennan claimed to have briefed Republican leaders on the hill on Christmas night about him being in the criminal process. Of course, we immediately saw the Republican members of Congress come back and say well he didn't talk to me about Miranda. This is so dysfunctional and debilitating. Frankly, I find it dangerous that both sides, the administration and the Republicans on the hill, continue to play politics with the issue. That's not what the American people want to say.
TOOBIN: I mean, in fairness, I think it's Republicans who are playing politics there. There was no controversy at all when Richard Reid, the shoe bomber, was tried, pled guilty in a federal district court in Boston. There was no suggestion that he went elsewhere. The fact that they are attacking the Obama administration for this now is simply politics and only one side is playing against it.
BROWN: Fran?
TOWNSEND: Oh, I am sorry, Jeff, I don't think that's the case. When you have the leaders, the Department of homeland Security, the DNI saying things like they weren't consulted on the handling of it, it suggests not a very well-prepared, well --
BROWN: But stop, Fran, just for a second. I mean, how do you address the question that the Bush administration handled this the same way?
TOWNSEND: Well, Campbell, as I've said I don't have a problem ultimately with the notion of having somebody put into a criminal process. The military commission option didn't exist earlier and oftentimes. Go back to the Clinton administration. When you had the East Africa embassy bombings, there was a criminal prosecution. I was in the Justice Department. It was handled perfectly well. And so it's not that that's not a viable option. In the mist of a threat, though, when what you're trying to do is gather intelligence to make sure you can disrupt a potential follow-on attack, you can understand why people were concerned that this guy wasn't debriefed for longer than 50 minutes.
BROWN: All right.
TOWNSEND: I think that's a legitimate criticism.
BROWN: Guys, we got to end it there. We're out of town. I'll give you the last word.
TOOBIN: No, that's fair enough.
BROWN: Jeff Toobin, Fran Townsend, appreciate it.
TOOBIN: No problem.
BROWN: All right, we'll be back.
Something though I want to leave you with, something we've never seen before in New Orleans. A Super Bowl trophy, oh, yes,
James Carville, Mary Matalin joining me next to talk about the Saints' big win and what it means for the city.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: New Orleans Saints stands and New Orleans residents, James Carville and Mary Matalin, join me in just a moment. But first, some must-see news happening right now. Mike Galanos, host of HLN's Prime News here with tonight's "Download."
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Hey, Campbell. First of, CNN is learning more about what caused the death of Pennsylvania Representative John Murtha. A statement from his office says Murtha died of complications relating to gallbladder surgery. But a source close to the late congressman tells CNN that doctors mistakenly hit his intestines. Murtha, a Democrat serving Congress for 36 years.
Well, the Dow Jones Industrials finished the day under the 10,000 mark for the first time in three months. Shares of big banks dragged the market lower extending a four-week run of losses. Now concerns over debt problems in Europe have raised concerns of the health of the global economy.
The tabloid wars could get very expensive for one British publication. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are suing "The News of the World" for printing what they say are false rumors about their marriage. The newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch's news corporation claimed the Hollywood couple visited a divorce lawyer in December to begin working out a deal. That lawyer said he hadn't been contacted.
And finally this, George W. Bush is back on a billboard, that is. There it is for you. A big sign with a picture of president. You see the sign reading "Miss me yet?" mysteriously popped up on Interstate 35 near Wyoming, Minnesota. No word yet on who paid for the billboard, who put it up. So someone is stirring the pot, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Very curious. That's going to be an interesting one.
Mike Galanos for us tonight. Mike, as always, thanks very much.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting in a few minutes. Larry, what do you have tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": First, Joe Jackson is with us tonight, Campbell, on the day that his son's doctor was formally charged in connection with Michael Jackson's death. We'll get his reaction. It's an exclusive.
And then South Carolina's first lady Jenny Sanford is here to tell us why she won't stay married to her husband who made news last years with revelations about an extramarital affair, shocking his wife, his children and the political world. It's going to be a heck of a show tonight. It's all next, Campbell, on "LARRY KING LIVE."
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few.
Coming up next, what does the big win really mean for the big easy? New Orleans locals James Carville and Mary Matalin joining me to talk about the Saints. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Mardi Gras starting a little bit early this year, at least for the thousands of people who jam the streets of New Orleans last night celebrating the Saints first Super Bowl victory. Listen right now to game MVP, Quarterback Drew Brees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW BREES, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS QUARTERBACK: You know, four years ago, whoever thought this would be happening? You know, when 85 percent of the city was underwater, all of its residents evacuated to places all over the country. You know, most people not knowing if New Orleans would ever come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And the party is not over yet for the citizens of "who dat" nation. As a Louisiana girl, I'm one of them, and so are James Carville and Mary Matalin. Tonight they're not here to talk politics. They're here to talk Saints.
Guys, congratulations. You're back in New Orleans, I know. James, how big is the celebration back in New Orleans today?
JAMES CARVILLE, KM RADIO SPORTS TALK SHOW HOST: Well, we were getting texted during the game, pictures from the French Quarter. It was bigger than Mardi Gras from just the articles in the paper and everything it's awesome. And the big news is Mary and I are going to be there to join the kids because tomorrow night is the Saints parade, like a Mardi Gras parade. And the mind can't imagine how big this parade is going to be. This is going to be one glorious thing for the city.
BROWN: No kidding. And I know you guys were both there for the game. Mary, what was it like? I mean, just being there watching it happen.
MARY MATALIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It was indescribable. And you know, you're an official "who dat," Campbell, so you'll appreciate this. There were 10,000 people lining the road when the Saints landed today, and each one they were sort of trying to interview them as they were coming off the plane or driving through. And they all to a man without rehearsing had said it's so good to be home. It's so good to be home. I mean, it was such a magical night there, but it was an incredible night here. We're happy to be home.
BROWN: And both of you talked to me about this a little bit, because just for people who don't know, I mean, you guys both moved back to New Orleans after Katrina. You've been a huge part of the effort there to try to rebuild the city, of people who truly believe in this place and love this place so much. People have tried to capture this in the last, you know, 12 hours talking about what it really truly means for the people of New Orleans.
CARVILLE: Right. BROWN: But explain that. I mean, it's so emotional, obviously.
CARVILLE: It is a very emotional thing. And the football, the Super Bowl alone is just a magnificent thing for the city. But you know, Campbell, there's unbelievable things that are happening down here.
MATALIN: And you know, Campbell, there was a time, and you know this, people who are doing it here on a lick and a prayer. It was just faith. This is a very faith-filled city, and it came through.
Mitch said in his victory speech on Saturday night that Rita Branson, with the Saints owners, the Saints owners, called (INAUDIBLE) ports and used -- the New Orleanians did their job now. It's time for the Saints to do their jobs. It's all of a piece.
And the Saints are not just a team doing things in the community. They go into the schools. They go into the neighborhoods. They reflect what John Besh (ph), our famous and delicious restaurant tour said, everybody who's here wants to live here, loves it here, wants to be here. And it's just all of a piece. It's a remarkable time, a remarkable place.
BROWN: And it was such a long time coming. I mean, like my entire life everyone -- no one took the Saints seriously. It was joke. And it was always everyone's feeling was thank God we have LSU.
CARVILLE: Right.
BROWN: And finally, this moment arrives. I mean, James, I read that you said it was a bigger high for you than when Bill Clinton won the presidency. Really?
CARVILLE: Well, you know, in some ways I sort of knew we were going to win, you know, that Tuesday night back in November 1992. I didn't know we were going to win. And it was just all of the emotion of everything in the city and you just knew how much people have been through. And they were your neighbors, and they were people, and you knew what this meant to them. And you're just so desperately wanted it for them and for the city. And I just knew deep down inside that this city was ready for the spotlight.
And I don't know. In some ways I think it was more emotional because it was such a -- it was a surprise to me. It wasn't a surprise when we won in '92. And just so much of my life has been around sports, LSU and the Saints and it's just so remarkable to see this happen to these people down here. It's just worth a cry. I did cry.
MATALIN: We did cry.
CARVILLE: We cried.
MATALIN: It was amazing.
BROWN: Well, guys, go celebrate. So happy for everybody down there.
CARVILLE: We're going to start tearing up and crying here and have a little fun.
BROWN: Well, you know, let's hope the city keeps riding this wave of optimism. It's such a great thing.
CARVILLE: It sure does. It is.
BROWN: Thanks guys, appreciate it.
MATALIN: Who dat, girlfriend.
BROWN: You bet.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in a few minutes. But up next, reading Sarah Palin's palm. That is tonight's "Guilty Pleasure."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. But first, Sarah Palin's big tea party speech. Turns out she really did have the crowd in the palm of her hand. And Jeanne Moos has tonight's "Guilty Pleasure."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Asked about the future, Sarah Palin resorted to palm reading.
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: That short list.
MOOS: Her own palm. It was a short list that went a long way. Newspaper and blogs called it her handy helper.
Hand jive, hand-gate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, who writes notes on their hands? I thought that was a childhood thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cheating?
MOOS: More like reminding. The words on her palm were energy, tax cuts, lift American spirits. She sure lifted the spirits of critics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you can't answer the question what are your priorities without reading the palm of your hands, maybe you're not the best leader to be leading people.
MOOS: When asked to name her top three things to get down, watch her go to the hand to remember energy.
PALIN: We've got to start to reining in the spending. We have got to jump start these energy projects.
MOOS: This after she just finished mocking President Obama.
PALIN: Charismatic guys with the teleprompter.
MOOS: Soon her hand was dubbed the palm prompter. And the "telepalmer."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM YOUTUBE DOUGSDOZEN.COM)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve things Sarah Palin wrote on her hand. Number one, left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOOS (on camera): This was a case where the right hand didn't know what the left hand was saying.
(voice-over): The right kind of handy list? Pick up eggs, milk, bananas, and some lunch meat.
(on camera): Have you ever written on your hand anything? Like what do you write on --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not since fifth grade.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Equations, equations like formulas for math. You know sometimes you forget.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did that for one time a speech. I did it for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In second grade?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, exactly. It was like for a poem, and people thought I was cheating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It shows to me that she's really trying.
MOOS: Talk about a prophetic impersonation, almost a year and a half ago, these two played anchor Charlie Gibson interviewing Sarah Palin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM YOUTUBE/LISANOVA)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, AS SARAH PALIN: Putin is the prime minister of Russia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, AS CHARLIE GIBSON: Do you have a cheat sheet on your hand?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This -- this Charlie is the hand that's shaking John McCain's hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOOS: The real Palin is letting her hand speak for itself.
(on camera): But Sarah Palin didn't just sanitize the evidence, she rewrote it.
(voice-over): She showed up a day later beside the governor of Texas with "hi mom" written on her palm poking at critics. In the words of one supporter, I like the way she likes to screw with their stupid heads.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Number three, when in doubt, wink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOOS: Now that's something the left wing and the right can applaud.
Careful. We wouldn't want this kind of behavior to rub off.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's it for us. Thanks for joining us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
