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Nancy Grace
Baby Gabriel May Be Buried in Trash; Landfill Search Begins for Missing Baby Gabriel
Aired February 09, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her Tempe, Arizona, home by car for a thousand-mile road trip with this beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. Mommy spends Christmas holed up in a local San Antonio motel, calling the 25-year-old bio dad, threatening he`d never see the baby again, saying she`d killed the baby, concealed him in a diaper bag and threw him into the trash. Turns out the whole time, Mommy`s trying to give the baby away to an Arizona couple.
Mommy alone, no baby, hops a bus to Florida December 27, 24 hours after the last credible sighting of the baby alive. December 30, cops find Mommy Miami Beach, no baby. Car recovered San Antonio, baby carseat still inside. When pressed, Mommy says she gives the baby away to a couple she bumps into at a state park.
Bombshell tonight. At this hour, investigators converging on a huge landfill, San Antonio, to search for baby Gabriel. As we go to air, investigators cordoning off Tessman Road landfill just 12 miles from the motel where Mommy and baby stayed. Police hone in on a particular cell within the landfill, ID`d by date and location. Search teams, cadaver dogs set to comb tons of debris.
At the same time, police investigate tips baby Gabriel kidnapped in an underground adoption after Mommy spotted with a couple in their mid-30s just before Gabriel disappears. Also there, a Hispanic male. Is he a baby broker? Also tonight, police hone in on pizza, an order by Mommy to feed at least four adults. Tonight, where is baby Gabriel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, GABRIEL`S MOTHER: Elizabeth Johnson, 7-24-86.
LOGAN MCQUEARY, GABRIEL`S FATHER: She said that, I stuffed him in a diaper bag and I -- she suffocated him and put him in a diaper bag and put him in the dumpster.
JOHNSON: When do I get a lawyer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New developments in the search for the missing 8- month-old baby Gabriel Johnson. It`s all focused San Antonio, where police say they`ll start searching a landfill there today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been roped off since the day that we discovered that the baby could possibly be in the landfill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say it`s going to take about five to six days to complete the first phase of the operation. There will be teams, apparently, of searchers and cadaver dogs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t want to leave any of it uncovered. We`re trying to do as thorough a job as we can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel. It`s also a possibility that she handed Gabriel off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, new reports emerge claiming Elizabeth Johnson wasn`t alone while hiding from law enforcement in San Antonio. A Papa John`s pizza driver tells KPHO he delivered one pizza to Elizabeth Johnson December 21st. He claims Johnson looked skittish and wouldn`t let him look inside the room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least one witness told authorities that Johnson was in the company of a Hispanic man on at least two occasions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man was tall, not fat but kind of big. He had short dark, really dark hair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This as newly released documents show police say they actually made contact with Elizabeth Johnson days before she was arrested.
JOHNSON: I don`t really know what to say, but everything is just so false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops asking her to go to a police station in Texas so they`d know baby Gabriel was safe. Johnson refused.
MCQUEARY: Once you betray her trust or she thinks you did, she will not talk to you, won`t do anything for you. Never -- you know, that`s just how she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. At this hour, investigators converging on a huge landfill, San Antonio, to search for baby Gabriel. At the same time, police investigating tips baby Gabriel kidnapped in an underground adoption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, officially opened up a murder case.
MCQUEARY: I knew it was coming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question becomes, Why are you searching a landfill if it`s a missing person case?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She refuses to cooperate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t consider herself normal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The disappearance of 9-month-old baby Gabriel Scott Johnson is now being investigated as a kidnapping and a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: San Antonio police are searching a landfill in the city today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the course of the investigation, we`ve received several follow-ups on leads. One of those leads has led us to this landfill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s two possibilities, that she killed Gabriel or that she did not.
GRACE: Telling the biological father that you smothered the baby, concealed his body in a diaper bag and threw him away in the trash is reason to suspect the child is dead.
MCQUEARY: She put in the text, I killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she killed him?
MCQUEARY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether the child is in a home...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did not want to be a mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... or if the child has been taken across the border of Mexico...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It didn`t seem like she, you know, really wanted him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... whether the child is at the bottom of a landfill...
JOHNSON: Everything that she said is so completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... we have to try to find, you know, the information the best we can to try to recover Gabriel, whether it`s dead or alive.
MCQUEARY: I`m still not going to believe it. Until they prove me wrong, Gabriel is out there, and he`s out there somewhere and we`re hoping to find him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, police have converged on a huge landfill there in San Antonio. They are now searching for the body of baby Gabriel. It`s going to be a herculean task. They`ll have to go through at least 45 feet of debris, tons of trash. At the same time, they are investigating the possibility, the strong possibility that this beautiful baby boy has been kidnapped as part of an underground adoption.
We are live there at the landfill and taking your calls live. To Michael Board, reporter, WOAI Newsradio, standing by near the landfill. Michael, what`s happening?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, Nancy, if Elizabeth Gabriel (SIC) did as she said and she murdered her own child, this is where the police are going to find his little body. This is where all the trash from the two hotels where she stayed was taken. The area here at this landfill has been roped off for weeks now. Finally, after all the preparation, all of the planning, crews are out here. They need to excavate this more than one million cubic feet of trash, move it to a secure location, and then go by it, sift through it, piece by piece.
Police are making it clear that not only are they looking for a corpse out here, they`re also looking for evidence. Maybe Elizabeth wrote something down on a piece of paper. Maybe there`s a receipt out here that will lead us to some information that we can find this child. If there`s information out there, this is where they`ll find it.
GRACE: Michael, isn`t it true that there have been very, very heavy rains?
BOARD: Yes, it`s been raining here heavy the last two weeks. I asked the police chief, William McManus, today, if he was worried that rain damaged or destroyed evidence. You have to imagine, if you`re looking for, like, maybe Elizabeth scribbled a name down on a hotel pad of paper, you would have to think that the rain would damage that, right? Well, Chief McManus told me today he is not worried about any evidence being damaged. You have to wonder why that is, but he`s the expert in this case. I`m going to defer to him here.
GRACE: And speaking of Chief Bill McManus, joining us from San Antonio Police Department. Chief McManus, thank you for being with us.
CHIEF BILL MCMANUS, SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Hi, Nancy. Thank you.
GRACE: Chief, I know this has been a very, very difficult decision to make because it`s our understanding -- I do not want to compromise your investigation in any way -- that you have received a fair amount of evidence that baby Gabriel could be alive. And then to suddenly -- well, not really suddenly, but to start the momentous effort of digging through this landfill must have been somewhat of a disappointment.
MCMANUS: Well, we`re following up on leads from the missing person investigation. But at the same time, when we learned that -- you know, what the baby`s mother had transmitted to the father, we immediately secured that landfill and the area where it was calculated that the debris was dumped that was put in that dumpster.
Logistically, it took us a much shorter time to actually put this search together, this dig together. Normally, they take, you know, anywhere from two, three, four months to put together. We rushed this. We were hampered by the rains. We finally got our first chance to dig today.
But the -- you know, I didn`t want the question to come up, Chief, if this is a missing person investigation, why are you digging in the landfill? So from a technical perspective, we went ahead, and you know, we made a homicide report and we`re just following up on it. It still remains a parallel investigation, both missing person, and of course, the dig is going to, you know, point toward the homicide investigation.
GRACE: With us tonight, a very special guest, and we are taking your calls live. With us, the chief of the San Antonio Police Department, Chief Bill McManus. Chief, we now know more of the details of what 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson said to the biological father, the bio father.
Rosie, if you have that screen, let`s put it up.
Chief, the details that she gave the father are much, much more chilling than, I smothered the baby, I hid him in the diaper bag and I threw him in the trash. It says, "You can spend the rest of your pathetic life wondering about" baby Gabriel. "I`m already boarding a plane out of the country. When I`m safe, I`ll e-mail you the exact location of dead Gabriel`s little blue body, if the garbage don`t come first."
You know, Chief, you`re probably a lot more diplomatic than me, but she can rot in hell for this e-mail alone, to say dead Gabriel`s "little blue body"! Is that the correct wording, Chief, of the text message she sent the baby`s father?
MCMANUS: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, I don`t want to get into the details of the investigation, whether you have them correct or not. But I will tell you that the communication that transpired back and forth -- or back to the father, was pretty tragic.
GRACE: Oh! And of course, Chief, as we all know in law enforcement, it only gets in the way. It impedes the investigation. Now, chief, a lot of people want to know what took you so long to start the dig because you had this evidence back in December. I know you`ve got an explanation, including how long it took to get the dig together. Please explain to the viewers.
MCMANUS: We continue to follow up on leads on the missing person investigation. The -- securing the landfill -- by securing the landfill, nothing was going in there, nothing was going out of there. So you know, time was really not that critical in terms of having to search the landfill. Nothing was going to be lost.
If we were -- if we believed that it was going to be lost, then we would have been in there, you know, as soon as we could have. And actually, today was as soon as we could have. But nothing was lost over those -- over that time period, from the time we discovered it until the time we actually went in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have checked the dumpsters there. You know, clearly, there was some time, by the time that all this information came out. So -- and I know they`ve looked at those dumpsters and where they would go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A conundrum for me, why cops are not searching the landfill and the dumpsters.
Art, I didn`t just fall off the turnip truck yesterday! All this time, so much time has passed since baby Gabriel went missing, yet they have not lifted up one soda can out of a dump to look for baby Gabriel.
But are they looking for a body? Because I haven`t heard a word about searching landfills, about searching dumpsters, about bringing in cadaver dogs into the last known motel where she stayed.
What I need to know, have police -- I mean, they have not even told us, or I believe, searched the landfills or the dumps until we talked about it on the show last week.
Well, obviously, the police are not taking it very seriously because all you got to do is follow the trash. When they collect it, you follow it. You see what landfill it goes to and you start digging!
No matter how many times we`ve asked them, and we called them practically by the hour, Have you started digging? Have you isolated a landfill? Have you followed a dump truck from the San Antonio motel to the landfill to identify which one it is? It`s always, No, no, no, we`re going to.
I haven`t heard one word about cadaver dogs, about landfills, about dumpsters, nothing! They may be in San Antonio talking to people, Hey, did you see this lady with a baby, but are they looking for a body? So time is going by. Every hour makes it more impossible to find the baby, dead or alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Today that search starts. Straight out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio, standing there near the landfill. Michael, apparently, it has taken quite some time to begin the search, to amass the search, to arrange the search. What are they doing? I mean, what is involved in this search?
BOARD: Well, it`s really interesting. I`m learning a lot about landfill searches, as well. It`s not as simple as going out there with a crew and a pair of shovels and some cadaver dogs and start digging. What they have to do is they have to excavate all of the trash and they have to move it out of here to a secure location.
At that secure location, then they can start sifting through it with cadaver dogs, with a fine tooth-combed, trying to find any little piece of evidence out here. They say it`s going to take a week just to get the stuff from here to the secure location. Then that search, the sifting, the fine-toothed combs -- that`s going to take months.
GRACE: Joining me right now, an expert in search, Paul R. Laska. He is with Paul R. Laska Forensic Consulting. He`s joining us out of Palm City, Florida. Paul, thank you for being with us. This is a monumental task. What do they have to do to actually begin executing the search?
PAUL R. LASKA, EXPERT SEARCHER, FORENSIC CONSULTING (via telephone): You`ve got a tremendous logistical -- excuse me -- logistical task beforehand. You have -- the landfill is an environmentally regulated facility. They have to work very carefully with the regulators to make sure that everything that is done meets with the regulators` approval.
The landfill operators are very valuable because just like we`re seeing with the San Antonio police, they`ve been able to tell the police one specific area that you can search. And by working with your refuse companies, you`re able to determine the route and what kind of trash is deposited on that route to give you clues that you`re getting near to the dumpster that you`re looking for.
GRACE: Straight to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, what more can you tell me?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, we`ve just received some court documents that give us some more details about what was going on while Elizabeth Johnson was on the run. Now, we knew already that Logan McQueary got a text. He then got a phone call from Elizabeth Johnson. Both times, she said that she killed Gabriel.
But now we learned that Logan McQueary actually recorded that phone conversation, apparently. Police have that tape. Also, the day this all happened -- this is December 27th that she called and sent that text -- police actually made contact with Elizabeth Johnson. That`s the first time we`ve heard that. They asked her to take the baby in, make sure he was safe, and she refused to do so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: San Antonio police are searching a landfill in the city today. They say it`s going to take about five to six days to complete the first phase of the operation, and then phase two will involve sifting through layers of debris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crews have begun the daunting task of searching this landfill for any sign of 8-month-old baby Gabriel Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In phase one, we will begin by removing 45 feet of debris.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cadaver dogs will then be brought in to help the trained teams start the intense hunt for evidence in this murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once we`ve removed debris and have searched our target area, we will begin the arduous task of sifting through layers in the search for possible evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Linda in Oklahoma. Hi, Linda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know what they`re going to do to that old gal if that baby`s still alive and well and her doing all this to hurt her husband or boyfriend or whatever.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Now, Linda`s question is if the baby`s found alive. First of all, Alan Ripka, defense attorney, New York, Doug Burns, defense attorney also out of New York. Gentlemen, welcome.
What about it, Doug burns?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you have interference with custody, obviously. You have some type of contempt of court by violating the court order. So there`s a lot of charges, but we`re all hoping and praying that the baby will be found...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa...
BURNS: ... and those`ll be the charges.
GRACE: ... whoa, whoa! Put Burns up.
BURNS: Yes?
GRACE: You know, Doug Burns, I understand your law practice has just expanded...
BURNS: Yes, ma`am. Thank you.
GRACE: ... into a separate state.
BURNS: Thank you.
GRACE: You know, and while you`re doing so well, Doug, I respect that, I really do.
BURNS: Thank you.
GRACE: But just to say, Oh, it could be a lot of charges. No. Specifically, couldn`t it be party to a kidnap? If she took part in an underground, illegal adoption, that`s kidnap, Doug!
BURNS: Yes, yes. We weren`t talking about necessarily the underground trafficking part of it. I thought your question -- I apologize -- was if the baby is found alive, she`s going to be charged with custodial interference and kidnapping by a parent who didn`t have custody. That is a lot different, just in fairness, than kidnapping a child that`s not your own.
GRACE: Well, hold on. What about it, Ripka? If the baby`s alive, the baby has been taken in one of these illegal adoptions, so she`s party to a kidnap. That is a felony, and in some jurisdictions, you can get life behind bars for that.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, not to mention reckless endangerment and child endangerment. You don`t know where the child is ending up. That`s why the courts monitor these foster arrangements and these adoptions, because you don`t want to give them to people that may be involved in the sex trade.
GRACE: And Doug Burns, what about the pain she has inflicted on the biological father? Just plain out mean. What about that?
BURNS: Well, yes, you`re right. I mean, the behavior is unconscionable, and she`s going to pay for it in a criminal context ultimately.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 8-month-old baby Gabriel has been missing since December 26th.
LOGAN MCQUEARY, FATHER OF MISSING BABY GABRIEL: I said, well, where`s Gabriel? And she said you know where he`s at. I already told you. And I asked her where is he. And she said that I stuffed him in a diaper bag and she suffocated him, put him in a diaper bag and put him in a dumpster.
ANALISA URIAS, ALLEGEDLY BABYSAT BABY GABRIEL IN SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS: I thought it was kind of weird the way he was acting and the way she was treating him. I did consider calling CPS.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do remain hopeful that baby Gabriel is alive.
URIAS: His clothes, they didn`t look clean. He just didn`t look clean or happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are, however, conducting both a missing persons investigation as well as a homicide investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: More evidence emerging that Elizabeth Johnson wasn`t alone while on the run.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: One witness told authorities that Johnson was in the company of a Hispanic man on at least two occasions while staying in San Antonio.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A Papa John`s Pizza deliveryman tells KPHO Johnson ordered pizza multiple times. One time even ordering two pizzas with different toppings, suggesting she was ordering for more than one person.
TAMMI PETERS SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: We want to believe that somebody has that baby.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators from multiple jurisdictions continue their investigation, searching a local landfill for potential evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have, you know, cubic yards and tons of trash that they`d have to pick through, not to mention that if there`s -- if indeed there is a death, the decomposition does deteriorate any type of viable evidence that might be helpful in determining what the cause of death was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "Killing for Sport." Pat Brown, I knew about the text she sent to I say her hub, but it`s her boyfriend, it`s the father of the baby. I knew about the phone call. Now Ellie Jostad telling us he recorded the phone call.
This text is awful. It is chilling. Now that I know the whole thing. She says to him, "And you can spend the rest of your pathetic life wondering about Gabriel. I`m already boarding a plane out of the country. When I`m safe, I`ll e-mail you the exact location of dead Gabriel`s little blue body if the garbage don`t come first."
You know what, I`d like to convict her on that alone. That is sick.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, I`m with you there, Nancy. It`s absolutely one of the most appalling things I`ve heard. And it does show that she has absolutely zero love for this child.
What it doesn`t exactly show is what she did to it. She may have gone to San Antonio to maybe give that baby away, hoping to make a lot of money in an adoption. She might have succeeded or she might have done what she just well said she did, which I tend to believe.
GRACE: Freak.
BROWN: And killed him because she was frustrated or fed up with him.
GRACE: She`s a freak, she is a freak.
BROWN: Well, yes.
GRACE: She`s gorgeous, she`s beautiful, she`s a mommy.
BROWN: And cold-blooded.
GRACE: And she is an evil freak.
BROWN: You got it.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist and MD, joining us from New York.
Dr. Taylor, don`t laugh, but I remember when I took child CPR after the twins were born and we had to practice with little fake babies. And I`ve just given birth, I was a physical wreck, Lucy and I both almost died, but as I was holding that little baby trying to do resuscitation on it, the thought that it could be John David or Lucy, it got me so upset, I burst into tears and practically had to leave the room.
Just the thought that they could choke on something and I would be trying to save them and I imagined their little body. And for her to write a text like this, to me is just abhorrent.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Oh, it is. I mean for most of us as mothers, the maternal instinct kicks in and that means that you want to preserve the relationships. And she`s just flat-out mean. Hopefully she did not hurt the baby. What she really has been trying to do is hurt the father of the baby.
And my -- I really hope and pray that this baby is safe and legally adopted. Whether it`s illegal or not is just safe because the thought of harming a young child, innocent child like that is just horrible.
GRACE: To Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of L.A.
Dr. Oliver, as always, thank you for being with us. Doctor, I understand what Chief Bill McManus was telling us, why it took so long to organize a search of this degree, the rain, torrential rains have held things up.
But what could they really find now? The search is just now starting. Right now, as we go to air. I mean what would be left of baby Gabriel if he is in that landfill?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, this is wintertime. Even in Texas it`s cold. You -- so, therefore, the body should be very well preserved. The evidence should be well preserved. There are no insect vectors to break down the tissues, no bacteria or very little bacteria because of the cold.
The body was apparently put in a bag. It was buried. It should be in excellent condition. You should have all the evidence you need in that bag.
GRACE: You know, I want to go now to Mike Sakal, reporter with the "East Valley Tribune."
Thank you for being with us, Mike. Mike, what more can you tell us about Elizabeth Johnson being seen with a couple in their 30s and on two occasions with a Hispanic male who many people believe could be a baby broker?
MIKE SAKAL, REPORTER, EAST VALLEY TRIBUNE: We also do know that she was seen riding in a smaller SUV vehicle with this Hispanic male.
GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Does that jive with the description and the vehicle she gave for the couple or did she give a description of their vehicle?
SAKAL: I haven`t heard of a description.
GRACE: OK.
SAKAL: She claims that she did not go out to the parking lot with that couple after she signed the adoption papers -- allegedly signed adoption papers over in the room. However, according to those new court documents, which we also received today and that we`re -- that you`ve been mentioning on here, she supposedly had also told the FBI agent that she handed over Gabriel in the parking lot of the motel.
GRACE: You know, little details like that matter, Mike Sakal.
SAKAL: Mm-hmm.
GRACE: I mean -- to Tom Shamshak, former police chief, private investigator, instructor at Boston University.
Tom Shamshak, if I had a witness that added to their story, that`s one thing. You know, I don`t really like it, but the more you question them, if you ask a different question, you`ll get a different answer.
They will add facts. But when they start changing facts like, I never went to the parking lot, I didn`t see their car, then I went with them with the baby to the parking lot, that`s two -- those are two very different stories. That`s not good.
TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, INSTRUCTOR AT BOSTON UNIV.: Nancy, good evening. You`re absolutely correct. But all over the black board here would lead me to believe that the woman is responsible -- I think this is going to be a grim discovery. I`m willing to bet that they have a lead that will take them there.
GRACE: Tom, just what I did not want to hear but the truth doesn`t always taste good going down.
Out to Mary in Georgia, hi, Mary.
MARY, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, love. What`s your question?
MARY: my question is when she bought the ticket to go to Miami, the agent said she had a backpack.
GRACE: Right.
MARY: Have they located that backpack and if so have they checked for evidence, whether or not Gabriel had been in it?
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, what about it, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, as far as we know, and the caller is right, the employee at the bus station did say she had a backpack with her. Apparently she was also seen on surveillance camera walking from that hotel parking lot with the backpack.
As far as we know they have not recovered the backpack. In fact we heard from a family member that when she was taken into the jail, that a backpack was not listed on the property receipt.
GRACE: And it would have been, Ellie, they would have listed that. That`s a very important point.
To Kathy in Utah, hi, Kathy.
KATHY, CALLER FROM UTAH: Hi. My question is, I got in on that little bit right after it started, but all the pictures, who`s got baby Gabriel in these pictures when it`s -- in happier times with like family and, you know, and then when she was in the hotel, was that taken off like her cell phone camera or something?
How did you get the pictures of her?
GRACE: Ellie, I know that she took those photos there in the hotel.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: Was it with a -- it was not a cell phone camera, was it?
JOSTAD: No, no, it was just a regular camera, we`re told. Not a cell phone.
GRACE: Everybody, we`re taking your calls live. As we go to air, a huge, huge development in the search for baby Gabriel. Now police -- San Antonio Police specifically -- have honed in on a landfill and they have commenced searching. This as reports swirl that baby Gabriel was kidnapped as part of an illegal adoption.
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For info or to make a donation, go to dancingforjoan.org.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homicide investigators believe that aspects surrounding the disappearance of baby Gabriel involve elements of a possible homicide.
During the course of the investigation, we`ve received several follow-ups on leads. One of those leads has led us to this landfill. Landfill personnel have pinpointed the exact location where the search is going to begin.
Today we begin the excavation process. This operation is going to be twofold. In phase one, we will begin by removing 45 feet of debris, and this process is going to take a minimum of six days to complete.
Phase two, the search operation will begin. Once we`ve removed debris and have searched our target area, we will begin the arduous task of sifting through layers in the search of a possible -- for possible evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Alan Ripka, Doug Burns, both out of New York.
To you, Doug Burns. If they find evidence, any evidence, a scintilla of evidence in this dump, even hair, nothing but hair, she might as well go ahead and plead guilty to murder after this text message she sends the biological father talking about baby Gabriel`s dead blue body.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, and not only that, she admitted the crime to her boyfriend/father of the child. One argument is why in the world would she do that, but based on all the analysis I`m hearing tonight, if you take that confession plus the bitter, bitter angry text, e-mail message, whatever it was, plus some, as you describe it, scintilla of evidence, it`s going to be -- that would make out a strong prosecution case in, my opinion.
GRACE: And what if they never find a body and they never track down the baby, Alan Ripka? What is the prosecution left with?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not a lot, Nancy. They`re going to have a very difficult time proving any case based upon her statement, especially if she then indicates later or recants the statement and said she did it simply to hurt the baby`s father.
They would have nothing to prosecute her with and could not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
GRACE: Back to Michael Board, standing by there near the landfill. What time does the search start, what time does it end, Michael, tonight?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, it already started last night. It`s going to wrap up later on this evening. It`s going to start back up at 7:30 in the morning.
They`re going to do 11-hour days out here. There`s going to be crews working non-stop trying to get this evidence out of here to a secure location so they can start sifting through it, trying to find maybe that hair here in the landfill.
GRACE: And how are they securing the scene?
BOARD: They have roped off -- you can`t get anywhere into the landfill here. And it`s the evidence, the trash that was in this area will be removed here and taken to a safe location, something like a warehouse, where they can make sure that if they do find evidence it is in a secure spot and there`s nothing anybody can do to get to it.
GRACE: Ellie, what more can you tell us about this possible underground adoption? What do we know?
JOSTAD: Well, this is coming from Logan McQueary, Gabriel`s father. He says that he has -- you know, he`s been retracing Elizabeth Johnson`s steps, where she went when she was in San Antonio, passing out flyers, he`s been talking to people.
He says that he`s hearing that the hotel where she stayed was a place known to be used by adoption agencies where they`d set up meetings between mothers and potential adoptive couples.
Also he says that, you know, we`ve heard she was seen outside Six Flags there in San Antonio. He`s hearing that also a popular place to set up these meetings. So that`s a theory he`s working on. That`s what he`s hoping is the case and that the boy is still alive.
GRACE: To Melanie in Oregon, hi, Melanie.
MELANIE, CALLER FROM OREGON: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
MELANIE: I just want to tell you, your twins are so adorable.
GRACE: I know, you know, I hit the jackpot. I hit the jackpot. The Lord heard my prayers and answered them 10,000 times over. Thank you, Melanie.
What`s your question, love?
MELANIE: Well, the question I have, what if they don`t find a body? Are these the only charges that they can bring upon her? There`s no way she can get charged with murder if they don`t find a body?
GRACE: You know, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "Killing for Sport" you don`t have to have a body to prove a murder case.
BROWN: You don`t, but you need to prove that the child has been murdered and that`s going to difficulty. She can still say, no, somebody has that child. I wouldn`t even put it past her to say if that child was found in the dump, no, I gave that baby away and somebody else killed him. That`s going to be the defense theory next.
GRACE: Well, here`s the thing. They have a confession by her.
BROWN: They do.
GRACE: To the father. But in our jurisprudence system, a confession alone is not enough to prove a murder. There`s got to be some type of corroboration. However, to you, Doug Burns, that corroboration can be very, very thin. Just as long as the confession is corroborated. Then it`s up to a jury.
BURNS: No, absolutely right. It depends on your definition of corroboration. And what I`m hearing in your agreement, and I agree with you, is that bitter, bitter message she sent could ostensibly be a form of corroboration in my opinion.
GRACE: And to Ellie Jostad, what did she say? Do we know what she said? We know about the text message, but what did she say when she -- wisely the bio dad records her phone call?
JOSTAD: Well, we don`t know precisely like we do from this KPHO report about what was in that text. But we do know according to these court documents that she did specifically say "I killed him" to the boy`s father.
GRACE: To the lines, Jessie in Kentucky. Hi, Jessie.
JESSIE, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
JESSIE: First I want to say you`re an angel for these babies.
GRACE: I`m so not an angel, but I appreciate that, thank you.
JESSIE: Well, you fight for them.
GRACE: Thank you, thank you.
JESSIE: And I want to know, the supposedly adoptive couple, why do they keep letting her talk to them and see the lady if they`re not doing any good?
GRACE: You know, that`s a good question. I believe that police believe that she will say something even if it`s coincidental that she doesn`t mean to say. That`s my belief.
To you, Tom Shamshak, you`re the expert, former police chief. Tom, they keep allowing the would-be adoptive couple to talk to her, to talk to Elizabeth Johnson behind bars. Why do you think that is?
SHAMSHAK: I agree with you that they want to keep an open dialogue between the mother and these prospective adoptive parents. Again, she may trip up and say something and, you know, they want to get out from under the glare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The debris will being thoroughly examined by search teams as well as cadaver dogs. Debris with no evidentiary value will be disposed of. Tentative hours for this operation would be 7:30 a.m. up to 6:00 p.m., Monday through Friday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Landfill personnel have pinpointed the exact location where the search is going to begin. This operation is going to be twofold. In phase one, we will begin by removing 45 feet of debris. And this process is going to make a minimum of six days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As we go to air, the search is on in a huge landfill there in San Antonio, Texas. It has taken weeks to effort and due to torrential rains, it is now just getting under way, the search for baby Gabriel.
But this, as reports emerge, baby Gabriel has been kidnapped in a secret underground adoption.
The tip line, everyone, 1-800-THE-LOST, 843-5678. There is a $5,000 reward in the search for baby Gabriel.
To Susan in Oklahoma, hi, Susan.
SUSAN, CALLER FROM OKLAHOMA: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?
SUSAN: I just wanted to know if baby Gabriel is still alive, and I`m praying that he is, can she be charged for medicating him the way that she did and the way that that babysitter said that she seen him?
GRACE: Oh, absolutely, she can be charged with child endangerment. She can also likely be charged with some type of child abuse, which rises to a felony.
To Cathy in Pennsylvania, hi, Cathy.
CATHY, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. I just have a comment. It`s been an observation of mine. Back when you interviewed the babysitter for baby Gabriel, I just don`t believe that this woman has killed this baby. If she was intending to kill him, would she have gone through the trouble of getting a babysitter for him when she went out.
GRACE: You know, Cathy.
CATHY: I believe maybe --
GRACE: That`s a great observation. What about it, Dr. Janet Taylor?
TAYLOR: Terrific observations because, again, most individuals who -- women who kill babies either have child abuse, they do it because they`re maybe psychotic, maybe depressed.
And her past behavior certainly indicated she didn`t want to be a mother. But again, hopefully nothing indicated that she certainly was --anyways capable that she would kill him. So it`s a great point.
GRACE: Final thought to you, Pat Brown.
BROWN: If she planned to kill that child, I don`t think she did. I think she was trying to get rid of him. But I think she may have gotten frustrated or just fed up with the whole process and -- or just accidentally knocked him off but I don`t think she planned it. No, but she`s capable of it.
GRACE: You are seeing video of the search. It is going on right now. We all pray baby Gabriel is still alive.
Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Robb Rolfing, 29, Milton, Massachusetts, killed Iraq. On a second tour, awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Award, a Vassar graduate, played college soccer and lacrosse.
Loved ping-pong, movie trivia, physics, the Minnesota Vikings, his Vikings tattoo and (INAUDIBLE) jersey. Favorite show "McGyver." Leaves behind grieving parents, Rex and Margie, brother T.J., sister Tiffany, nephew Miles.
Robb Rolfing, American hero. Thanks to our guest but especially you for being with us. And special thank you to Georgia friend of the show, Coach Joe for this Harley Davidson Barbie. It is Lucy`s first Barbie. And t- shirt for the twins. For John David.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
