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Campbell Brown
Interview With Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank; Anti- Incumbent Fever Sweeping the Nation
Aired February 16, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody.
We have news to report right now on the search for a climber who fell into the crater of Mount Saint Helens. And that is topping the "Mash-Up" tonight.
Rescuers battled the elements all day long, but tonight their worst fears were in fact confirmed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After 24 hours of exhaustive and somewhat frustrating searching, a Navy rescue team managed to get into that crater and find Joseph Bohlig. However, it was not the end of the story that they had wanted. Mr. Bohlig was dead.
He's been transported now to a medical examiner's, where an autopsy will possibly tell whether he died in the fall or survived overnight as rescue teams tried to reach him today.
Again, Joseph Bohlig, a hiker who had gone up Mount Saint Helens over 70 times, was dead on this mountain after tragically falling down into the crater after a collapse yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Low visibility, high wind and snow had hampered the rescue effort. We Gates have a lot more on this story coming up a little bit later in the hour.
In Washington today, President Obama put his muscle behind plans to build the first new American nuclear power plants in 30 years. He is guaranteeing loans to build two reactors in Georgia. The price tag, $8.3 billion. The administration says it will create 3,500 construction jobs and 850 operations jobs. But critics of nuclear energy say that is too high a price to pay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are announcing roughly $8 billion in loan guarantees to break ground on the first new nuclear plant in our country in three decades.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The White House says it will help America meet its growing energy needs and create thousands of jobs at the same time. The president also touted his plan as new fuel for bipartisanship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The power generated from the plants' two new nuclear reactors would provide energy for 550,000 homes, 2,200 megawatts worth of electricity that would offset about 30 million barrels of oil.
OBAMA: That's like taking 3.5 million cars off the road.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But some Americans are haunted by the partial meltdown at Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island plant in 1979 and the Chernobyl disaster in the former Soviet Union that killed 56 people and led to thousands of cancer deaths. And then there is the issue of what to do with the radioactive waste. America doesn't have a permanent solution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Even though Georgia Power could get $8 billion from the feds, they say they are going to need to raise rates in order to pay for the new reactors.
Turning now to Dubai and an extraordinary glimpse of a hit squad, what appears to be a hit squad, in action -- 10 men, one woman caught on camera hours before a top Hamas leader was assassinated last month. It looks like a spy thriller, but this is very real and very deadly. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Minute by minute, this is the lead-up to the Dubai assassination of one of the founding members of Hamas, all captured on security cameras and released by the emirate's police, 10 men and one woman, the alleged hit squad.
Some check into the Al Bustan Rotana Hotel and await their target. This is Mahmoud al-Mabhouh arriving at the hotel, where he would be killed just hours later.
After checking in, the man Israeli security sources accuse of being a key link between Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas was followed by two alleged killers dressed in tennis gear holding tennis rackets. The police say they were checking the number of his room. Then they booked the room directly across the corridor.
Leaving the hotel for a couple of hours, al-Mabhouh was again tracked by different teams. Police believe the killers entered his room at 8:00 p.m. using an electronic device to gain entry.
Al-Mabhouh entered his room at 8:25 p.m. His body was not discovered until the next morning. Police say he appears to have suffered electric shocks and may have been suffocated.
These are the suspects, all caught on camera, sparking an international manhunt. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No arrests yet. Authorities still aren't able to identify the suspects on that tape.
There is worldwide controversy tonight over a documentary that aired on the BBC on Monday. Veteran TV host Ray Gosling made a shocking on-air confession. He says he killed his lover who was dying of AIDS. Watch this right now from the BBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAY GOSLING, TV HOST: I killed someone once, not in this region, not in our East Midlands, but not so far away. He was a young chap. He had been my lover, and he got AIDS.
And in a hospital one hot afternoon, doctors said, "There is nothing we can do."
And he was in terrible, terrible pain.
I said to the doctor, "Leave me just for a bit."
And he went away. And I picked up the pillow and I smothered him until he was dead. The doctor came back. I said, "He's gone."
Nothing more was ever said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: British police are investigating. They say the BBC did not give them a heads-up before that report aired.
Over now to Saudi Arabia and the surprise question for Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Check out this moment from a town meeting at a college in Jeddah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the prospect of Sarah Palin one day becoming president maybe terrify you?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, if so, would you consider immigrating to Canada or possibly even Russia in the -- the event of this happening?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, the short answer is, no, I will not be immigrating.
(LAUGHTER) CLINTON: It is part of the American political environment that people are always speculating on who will run for president and who will become president. And I have gone through that experience personally, so I'm very well-acquainted with it.
But I'm not going to speculate on who might or might not be nominated by the Republicans.
I am very proud to support Barack Obama, and I will continue to support Barack Obama.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Secretary Clinton had kind of a tough day. Her plane broke down in Saudi Arabia, and she ended up having to hitch a ride with General David Petraeus.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. This is courtesy of Jimmy Kimmel. Believe it or not, he managed to find something funny about the protests in Iran. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": There were some protests in Iran today, which takes a lot of courage, I mean, to protest in that country. People gathered in the streets to chant death to the dictator. And I noticed something. Is it just me or does this chant remind you of a popular song?
(CHANTING)
(MUSIC)
(CHANTING)
(MUSIC)
(CHANTING)
(MUSIC)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KIMMEL: Who would have ever guessed that Lady Gaga was...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jimmy Kimmel, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Senator Evan Bayh says, Capitol Hill is so dysfunctional, it's impossible to get anything done, so, he is quitting.
And my next guest think that's, frankly, a big cop-out -- Congressman Barney Frank coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One day after stunning the political world by quitting Congress, Indiana Senator Evan Bayh delivered a blunt message to the American people. Without naming names, he turned on some of his fellow lawmakers, saying that, this November, it is every voter's duty to throw the bums out.
Check out this, this morning from "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: We have got to vote out the ideologues who are unwilling to accept half-a-loaf, rather than none, and we have got to vote out the partisans who care more about their political fortunes than the country.
Ultimately, that's going to need to be what happens to get this system moving in a better direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bayh's bottom line, it is now up to the voters to change the system. It is too screwed up to fix itself, which is why he's leaving.
And my guest tonight pretty much calls that a cop-out. I'm talking about Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank joining me right now. Congressman, not a lot of sympathy for Senator Bayh. Why not?
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D-MA), FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, I don't think I used the phrase cop-out. I did say I don't see how you change something by -- by quitting it or leaving it, whether it's Senator Bayh or Governor Palin.
First of all, there is a very important institutional problem here. That's the filibuster rule in the Senate. There has been a de facto anti-democratic amendment to the U.S. Constitution over the past 20 years that both parties participated in, and it's now the rule that you have to get 60 votes to pass the bill. That wasn't the case at the Constitutional Convention. It hasn't been the case for most of America. In fact, if you read the Constitution, there are direct indications to the contrary. They mention occasions when you need more than a simple majority, which is proof legally that the rule was the majority.
I wish Evan Bayh had stayed there and been one of those who would vote next January, as the Senate would have the right to do, to get rid of the filibuster.
Second, I agree there's excessive partisanship, but I don't see how leaving is going to change it. He's right. There is a pressure against compromise. You have people on the left who are on the Internet, you have people on the right who are on talk radio. They do tend increasingly these days, as opposed to years ago, to talk only with each other. People go and get reinforced, and that does make it harder to compromise. I just don't see how quitting helps.
BROWN: But how does staying there help, then? Because, I mean, as he described it, it is so driven and so controlled now by the extremes that to him, it just felt like an exercise in futility.
FRANK: Well, I think in the first place, the major thing that led to futility is the filibuster rule in the Senate. We have gotten things done in the House. I'm the chairman of the Financial Services Committee. We passed a bill to impose financial regulation. It's a bill that has been criticized by some of my friends, because, yes, we did compromise. I didn't have the votes to do everything I wanted to do.
We did have the votes to do a great deal. So if you look at what went on in the House, yes, we compromised. That was true of the environment, the energy bill. Many people on the most liberal side thought it was too weak. On the health care bill, I'm personally supportive of a single-payer system like Medicare. I long ago said, well, that's not going to happen. Let's try to work this out.
The biggest problem, frankly, and the frustration has been in the Senate, where it's the filibuster--
BROWN: All right--
FRANK: Well, but it's the combination of the filibuster and partisanship. And changing the filibuster rules, you could get to where 53 or 54 votes could pass something, would break the deadlock.
BROWN: Here's the problem, though. I mean, you know the chances of getting that changes now, certainly, are almost nil. So if you're Senator Bayh--
FRANK: No, the chances of getting the change are for people to run -- what I hope he would have said as well, come next January, I'm going to vote as a senator to change that rule, which a majority of the senators can do at the opening of the Senate. And that's not so hard. I would have said, let's all campaign and make your senator, Democrat or Republican, commit to changing the filibuster rule.
Secondly, yes, I think you should make compromises and stand up for them. And I stand up to people, my liberal friends, people on my left who say, well, you gave in too much. My answer was, we did the best we could. It's going to be better than before. We passed a credit card bill earlier last year.
BROWN: Let me just stop you for one second, because I was just doing a little research today, and this was something that you said in September that struck me. You said, quote, "the insistence on bipartisanship really goes against the notion of democracy. We had an elections in 2008. The Democrats won the presidency, significant majorities in the House and the Senate."
When Republicans hear you say something like that, I mean, why do they -- or why should they believe that you have a real interest in doing business with them? FRANK: Because of the reality. Because of the reality. I'm very proud -- the House Republicans voted, as the House Democrats did, on who was the most partisan and who was the most bipartisan member. I was the only one who showed up on both lists, because I think when there are legitimate differences, you press them, but then in the end, you compromise. And in the committee that I chair, we did put through a bill that had a lot of compromises. Unfortunately, the Republicans decided to walk away.
But again, I want to go back to you can't do anything. The credit card bill went into effect this week, which is protecting citizens from a lot of abuses that the credit card companies had been maintaining. It passed the committee that I chair, it passed the Senate. It became law. It's not everything all of the consumer advocates want. It's a significant improvement. So I reject the notion that nothing gets done.
And yes, as to partisanship, I do believe that once you have an election, the majority has the responsibility, but you can -- you carry that out in a way that is open to some kind of compromise.
BROWN: But I guess when you focus on the filibuster rules, aren't you in a sense just sort of blaming Republicans for using and for getting in the way --
FRANK: I'm sorry, Campbell. I'm sorry, Campbell, I guess I said earlier, because I anticipated you would say that, that both parties were to blame for the rule on the filibuster. I really did say that explicitly.
BROWN: All right. I stand corrected.
FRANK: OK, but I'm not being petty. I'm telling you both parties have--
BROWN: No, OK.
FRANK: -- done that, and I would hope both parties would say, no, we're going to give it up. When the Democrats were in the minority -- look, when the Republicans were the majority, they threatened to break the filibuster rule for judges. And all of my liberal friends objected.
I said, no, let's accept them at their word, but not just for judges. Let's get rid of the filibuster rule. Let it be a rule that slows things down, but not box things. That, more than partisanship, is what's stopping action in the United States Congress.
BROWN: So what happened here? Let's go a little sort of more big picture. You're running for your, I think, 16th term in November. You've been there a long time. Was it always this bad? It wasn't always this bad, was it?
FRANK: No, when I got to Congress in 1981, Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill used to joke about how they were friends after 6: 00. Bob Michel was a Republican leader, and he and Tip O'Neill were friendly. What happened was, and this is a very self-acknowledged fact, Newt Gingrich decided that there was too little partisan division. And Newt Gingrich, when he wanted to get into the leadership and wanted to get into the majority, said we have to stop treating the Democrats as if they are decent people with whom we disagree, and he introduced a degree of partisanship that has been exacerbated since because both sides respond.
The other part has to do with media. You do have increasingly today -- decreasingly are people reading or watching the same source of information. People on the left and people on the right who are the activists tend to get their information and their opinions from people with whom they agree. And I know I have been told--
BROWN: The echo chamber. I agree with you--
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: A man named John Fund from "The Wall Street Journal" in November made a speech in which he accused me of passing -- sponsoring a bill to create something called universal voter registration I'm not for. Pretty soon, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, "The Washington Times" all mentioned it. It becomes a very polarizing factor.
That has added to it. It is the fact that both sides are now, those are the most active, not the average citizen, but the most active ones are by definition the ones who have impact because they choose to have it, and I think that has reinforced it. But it really did begin with Newt Gingrich's decision consciously -- you can go back and he boasted about it at the time -- to introduce more partisan division and sharper edge, because he thought that was the only way the Republicans would get into power.
BROWN: All right, I'm almost out of time, but just tell me finally, I guess, how hopeful you are, or not at all, if that's how you feel, that there is any -- that we could possibly move in a new direction? That whether it's this--
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: -- especially with November approaching, and what you see both parties up to do in advance of this election here?
FRANK: Well, the world is not going to end in December of this year, and frankly, I'm going to give you a very clear answer. I don't want to assess hopeful or not, because I'm afraid if it doesn't look good, people may walk away.
This is a longer-term fight, to get the politics in this country back where it should be. So I don't want to be optimistic or pessimistic. I want people to say it's a very important goal, and the way to change it is to stay in there and fight for it.
BROWN: Congressman Barney Frank, always good to talk to you. Really appreciate your time.
FRANK: Thank you.
BROWN: If the incumbents were not paying attention before, well, they better start.
We have a brand-new poll that shows voters right now angrier than they have been in more than 20 years, as you just heard there, probably with good reason. We're going to have the numbers for you, the hard numbers, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The news just keeps getting worse and worse for Congress.
Today, we learned Americans are angrier with their elected representatives than they have been in two decades. Only about a third of voters in the latest CNN/Opinion Research poll think most members of Congress deserve to keep their jobs. That is the lowest number ever recorded in the history of this network and our polling.
So, is there anything incumbents can do to try to buck the tide?
That's the question right now for CNN's Tom Foreman and senior political analyst Gloria Borger.
Tom, I know you have been studying the numbers a little bit. If you're a congressman tonight, just how worried should you be? How ugly is it going to get.
(LAUGHTER)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I wouldn't take out a long--term lease if you're a congressman here, because it's looking bad.
Look at this. In terms of reelecting, do most members of Congress deserve to be reelected? That's what we asked in our CNN/Opinion Research poll. And look at this staggering number here -- 34 percent say yes, but 63 percent said no. Those are horrifying numbers if you're a congressman.
Let's look at the next number here, if you go to your congressman. Normally, people want to elect their own congressman, even if they dislike Congress overall. But look at the numbers here now. Once again, 51 percent say yes. That's a majority. But that is unbelievably small for this number, Campbell.
The simple truth is, the previous number and this one, these are the worst numbers we have seen in this category since the early 1990s, when we started measuring this. And, in fact, these are worse than it was in 1994, which was the year of the Republican revolution, when the Republican took both chambers of Congress for the first time in 40 years.
These numbers are worse than that. But here's the part that may make this different from that year. Choice for Congress right now, yes, the Republicans have a tiny, tiny, tiny margin here, but that is within the sampling error, so I'm not sure how much you can read into that.
Most importantly, Campbell, what we're seeing in this poll is that, unlike '94, when people saw some opportunity to move a different direction, the anger at both parties is so pronounced right now, you may have someone benefit by default, but it's not going to be because the public likes them -- Campbell.
BROWN: Yes. It's anti-incumbent, Gloria. It's not about Democrats.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
BROWN: If you are a congressman right now, you're running for reelection, what is going through your mind? What are you thinking?
BORGER: Fear??
BROWN: How are you preparing? What are you doing?
BORGER: Well, I think you're getting ready to pull the outsider card. That's really about all you can do. And it's a little tricky.
BROWN: Which is a little tricky when you live in Washington.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Absolutely, a little tricky.
It's harder for Democrats, obviously, because they run the Congress and they occupy the White House. But if you're a Republican, you play the outsider reformer card. You say that Barack Obama and the Democrats, there were lots of high expectations for them. They didn't meet them. We're the guys who can really fix this. And so you just go along to bat on being an outsider.
And if you're a Democrat, you try and align yourself up with independent voters. You try and say, I have been independent. I haven't been following Nancy Pelosi. I haven't been following Harry Reid. And then you cross your fingers.
BROWN: And given how intense the excitement will be, I guess, from the non-incumbents, how negative do you expect many of these campaigns to get in terms of advertising and just the nastiness?
BORGER: Right. Yes, really bad.
I was talking to a bunch of Democratic strategists today, Campbell, and they said, get ready for a bunch of knife fights. I had one Democratic strategist tell me that he's telling his clients -- quote -- "Unless you're prepared to run a tough campaign, you ought to retire."
Don't forget you have this Supreme Court ruling that allows all of this corporate money into campaigns. Campaigns could get really more negative as a result. So, I think it going to be the Wild West out there. And, ironically, of course, this is exactly what the American public doesn't want. But because incumbents are trying to keep their jobs, they're going to feel defensive and they're going to go negative.
BROWN: Tom, President Obama not immune from the frustration out there either. Voters not too happy with him right now, are they?
FOREMAN: You know what, Campbell? I was listening to what Gloria was saying. And I think, you know what? He was the guy. He was the one who ran on the idea of, I'm outside. I'm going to change it all.
And look what's happened to him -- 44 percent say, yes, he should be reelected -- 52 percent now say, no, he doesn't deserve to be reelected.
I think that shows us something, Gloria. That shows you can't just run as a reformer and a centrist.
BORGER: Right.
FOREMAN: You are going to actually have to rule that way if you want to hold on to power in this climate.
BROWN: And, if anything, Gloria, what does the White House do? What can they do to try to turn the numbers around?
BORGER: Well, they have got to get something done, Campbell. They have got to pass a jobs legislation. They have to get some Democrats to agree on what to do on that. They have to do something on health care reform, no matter how whittled own it is.
But, most of all, they have to let people know that they understand their economic anxiety, they understand the jobs problem, and they are trying to do something about it. The thing about the White House is that they're the victim of the high expectations that people set for Barack Obama.
They thought he was going to fix Washington. And he hasn't done it. They feel he's been ineffective, and so they're suffering the wrath of the voters, just like the Republicans did in 2006 and 2008. Now it's directed at the Democrats.
BROWN: Gloria Borger and Tom Foreman for us tonight.
Guys, thanks so much.
BORGER: Sure.
BROWN: When we come back, we have some breaking news from Mount Saint Helens, where a hiker fell 1,500 feet into the crater there -- that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: A hiker who fell into the Mount St. Helens volcano is dead tonight. His body was found just a couple of hours ago. It was recovered more than 24 hours after the man fell 1,500 feet into the crater. Joseph Bohlig is seen here posing in a photograph just after reaching the summit. Moments later, the ground underneath him collapsed. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT SALKOVICS, HIKER'S FRIEND: The biggest thing I want people to know about Joe because I've heard speculation that we were not prepared for this climb, maybe we weren't prepared for an overnight. Nobody carries the kind of gear to do an overnight normally. We were well prepared. We had clothing, food, water, phones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And CNN all platform journalist Patrick Oppmann is at Mount St. Helens for us right now. Patrick, I know they had been trying to get to him since last night hoping to get there while he was still alive. What happened?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN ALL PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Campbell, obviously it was not the outcome that rescuers had hoped for. They worked furiously for the last 24 hours against bad weather, bad luck and some truly dangerous conditions to try to reach Joseph Bohlig. When a Navy helicopter was finally able to actually land inside this crater this afternoon, they found Mr. Bohlig exactly where police said they thought he would be. That's when the mission turned from rescue into recovery mission.
Now it's going to fall into a medical examiner to determine whether Joseph Bohlig was killed when he plunged into the crater on Monday or whether he was able to survive but not long enough.
BROWN: And, Patrick, just how tough have conditions really been for the rescuers as they were trying to get to him?
OPPMANN: I can't imagine more difficult conditions, Campbell. When I drove in this morning, you see these mountains behind me? You couldn't see those. They were completely fogged in and throughout the day, rescuers tried it again and again.
The Navy helicopter came here this morning and spent several hours this morning before they went back and refueled and finally got this brief window of opportunity. But just imagine trying to bring a helicopter into a crater. They were not able to see the top of the mountain for much of the day, and this is an area that obviously, looking at what happened to Joseph Bohlig, is very prone to avalanches, so it was a dangerous mission today. And rescuers were really left with a lot of what ifs. One rescuer told me today what if the weather conditions had been a little bit better and they'd been able to get Joseph Bohlig earlier? Could they have made a difference? For the moment, though, they just don't know.
BROWN: All right, Patrick Oppmann with the very latest for us. Patrick, thank you. Appreciate it.
A major blow to the Taliban tonight. It's been called the biggest since they were driven from power after 9/11. A top commander captured by U.S. forces. He's expected to be a gold mine of intelligence. We're going to have that story for you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight in Afghanistan, the latest on the major offensive that is now under way. U.S. Marines have taken control of the police headquarters in the Taliban stronghold of Marjah. It's one of the main objectives for the 15,000 NATO and Afghani forces fighting for control of the town in the largest offensive since the war began. Troops have been under attack since the mission began on Saturday. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're ready. Hey, comrade, fire, go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And while that battle rages, the arrest of the Taliban's top military leader is being called a key turning point in the war and a major blow to the Taliban.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): In the nine years U.S. forces have been fighting the Afghan Taliban, never have security forces arrested a figure more significant than Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar. This according to a senior U.S. administration official. In the Taliban's chain of command, Baradar is second only to its leader, Mullah Omar. One Pakistani-based analyst called Baradar the Taliban's de facto leader. With Mullah Omar staying out of the scene, Baradar was running the operation, he says.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Peter Bergen joining us right now, CNN national security analyst. So, Peter, how significant is the arrest? What kind of information does the U.S. hope to get from this man?
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Campbell, I think the biggest significance of this arrest is the fact that it shows an enormous shift with the Pakistanis. You know, for many, many years the Pakistani government has said, well, you know, we don't really have senior members of the Afghan Taliban living in Pakistan. Clearly this guy was living in Karachi, which was after all Pakistan's largest city. The fact that they're willing -- it's a total game changer for the leadership of the Afghan Taliban.
For years and even decades, they've been able to sort of comfortably live in Pakistan. That is over. I think that affects the way that they approach negotiations. If they feel that their safe haven is no longer safe, they're more likely to negotiate. I think it really -- and not only it's just the information that this guy may or may not give up, and the fact that he's the number two official, it's much more significantly is what it says about the shifting attitudes in the Pakistani government and military.
BROWN: Well, does it signal, I guess, greater cooperation between the U.S. and Pakistanis across the board on all these issues?
BERGEN: Right. I mean, there's always been some level of cooperation, but it's always been, you know, I would say, conditional in the sense that we've seen joint operations against Al Qaeda and Pakistan many times, but this is absolutely the first time where you've had the Pakistani government and American intelligence being involved in an operation against a senior Afghan leader, and that is, I think, probably the most significant thing that we've seen for years.
I mean, the operation that we're seeing in Marjah is really a tactical operation in Helmand. Helmand itself is not a game changer for the war in Afghanistan. It's a significant province but it's not Kandahar, which is the center of gravity of the Taliban. The fact that effectively the operation commander of the Taliban and southern Afghanistan is now in a joint U.S.-Pakistani custody is simply enormous. This is more important, Campbell, I really think than let's say killing Zarqawi during the Iraq war.
Zarqawi was very well known to the American public. He was the face of the insurgency, but he only ran a small chunk of it. This guy runs a very, very significant part of the insurgency.
BROWN: All right, Peter, I do want you to go back though to the military operation for a second in Marjah. You said comparatively this is probably a bigger deal, but just talk to me about what's going on there, because I guess the real test isn't sort of whether or not they can clear out the Taliban as part of this operation, but what happens after they leave? What is the plan in terms of the longer term?
BERGEN: Well, you know, General McChrystal has talked about a government in a box that they're going to roll into Marjah. And they've got a district governor ready to go. They've got Afghan police, Afghan soldiers. They have a plan, and that's very important because too many operations in the past were basically mowing the lawn, it's called, essentially going into areas that were cleared and never held. And then you go back the next year, tear it again, and you never hold it. We've seen that pattern several years in southern Afghanistan.
Obviously, everybody on the size of that was a mistake and it's a mistake that's not going to be repeated in Marjah. There is a plan. We'll see if it works, but it's different from other operations we've seen in the past.
BROWN: All right, Peter Bergen for us tonight. Peter, as always, thank you so much.
BERGEN: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: When we come back, new details tonight about the troubled past of the woman that police say opened fire at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. How many warning signs may have missed along the way? We'll have that story coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The University of Alabama at Huntsville's shooting suspect is now under suicide watch and facing new charges tonight. We're going to have that story coming up. But first, more must-see news happening now.
Mike Galanos, host of Prime News on HLN is here with tonight's "Download." Hi, Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Hi, Campbell. First off, former presidential candidate Mitt Romney became the target of a case of air rage. Get a little of this story.
A spokesman says Romney was on a commercial flight from Vancouver when he asked a passenger in the row ahead of him to raise his seat back before takeoff. The guy became enraged, took a swing at Romney. Mitt Romney did not retaliate, but the flight crew did, removing the passenger from the plane.
New evidence suggests King Tut died from malaria and complications from a broken leg. New DNA testing on Tut's 3,000-year- old mummy also reveals Egypt's most famous pharaoh was a frail boy who suffered from a cleft palate, club foot. Tut became Egypt's leader at age 10 and died when he was just 19 years old.
This one can make you blush a little, but it's serious business. Science, research, size, does matter, say condom experts. Researchers say one of the most -- I'm trying to get through this -- one of the most common reasons that men either don't use condoms or ditch them is that they're buying the wrong ones. Ill-fitted condoms have led to complaints of breakage, slippage. Couple new terms there for you. The survey finds that men are reluctant to buy condoms marked as either small or medium.
Now this, Mardi Gras, Fat Tuesday, final day of New Orleans big party. The weather has been cold by New Orleans standard, about in the 50s. So what, they've been partying, really, since the Saints won the Super Bowl. There you see people reveling and with good reason. I mean with that victory in the Super Bowl, Mardi Gras always a party. Folks just love it there. Again, happy Mardi Gras to all.
Campbell, back to you.
BROWN: Yes, happy Mardi Gras. Wish I was there.
GALANOS: I'm sure.
BROWN: Mike Galanos for us tonight. Mike, thanks very much.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Larry, what do you have tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": It's our semi-monthly visit with Bill Maher. He has never -- as you know, Campbell, he has opinions on everything, including this show. Bill Maher is our special guest top of the hour, full hour, your phone calls.
Campbell, Bill Maher is next.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few minutes.
Coming up, a university professor suspected of being a cold- hearted killer who fatally shot her own brother by the age of 19. We have new details tonight on how she apparently slipped through the cracks all these years. That when he we come back.
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BROWN: University of Alabama shooting suspect Amy Bishop is under a suicide watch tonight, facing three new charges of attempted murder. And this as we learn new details about her involvement in the 1986 shooting of her brother. Police records in that case were thought to be missing, but today they were found. And Brooke Baldwin is joining us right now with the very latest on this.
And, Brooke, I know you just finished reading the police report. Tell us what you learned.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's obviously no longer missing because here it is. This just came down, Campbell, just this evening.
We know that the Norfolk County D.A.'s office has read this thing, and they have essentially said, look, there was definitely probable cause back in 1986 to not only have arrested the then 19- year-old Amy Bishop Anderson but also charge her. Let me read you the charges she would have faced.
They listed assault with a dangerous weapon, carrying a dangerous weapon and unlawful possession of ammunition. The statute, they said, of limitations, though, has run on all those charges. But as you said, we read this report. I just want to read you this one line that kind of captivates the emotion at the time of when she was taken into custody.
It reads, "Miss Bishop seemed frightened, disoriented and confused. But she kept both her hands on the shotgun at all times." And, Campbell, that really is just the beginning of what we're reading in these 33 pages.
BROWN: And, Brooke, today you spoke to the police chief in charge at the time of that incident. And was he able to explain why she was never arrested after shooting her brother?
BALDWIN: Right. She was never charged. What happened was the Massachusetts state police eventually intervened, took the lead on the investigation and never charged her. But John Polio is the former police chief you're referencing. He is 87 years of age. He is retired but I'll tell you he's sharp as ever. And I sat with him this morning and he remembers the precise date back in 1986 when Amy Bishop Anderson was arrested and possibly prematurely released. Here's what he told me.
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BALDWIN: We were told when she was arrested it was sort of a stand-off situation, guns drawn.
JOHN POLIO, FORMER POLICE CHIEF: There were guns drawn. There were uniformed officers did take her into custody to bring her in for questioning. That did happen. I could understand why the officers would be shook up as they were looking down the barrel of a shotgun --
BALDWIN: And then she was released.
POLIO: Well, she was released because after a conference between (INAUDIBLE) Captain Buca (ph) and the state police, when it was given over to them, they came to the conclusion that the girl should be turned over to their mother and they would conduct their own investigation, but did not conduct that investigation until 10 days later.
BALDWIN: Do you regret having her released?
POLIO: No. No, not at that point in time. In hindsight, if I had a crystal ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So why do we care? Why does this 23-year-old police report matter? Well, we posed that very question to the D.A. down in Huntsville, Alabama, and he told us over the phone it very much so matters, because, Campbell, if there is a mental defense used in this capital murder trial, the background in Boston will be key -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Brooke, thanks very much. Let me bring in CNN legal analyst Lisa Bloom for a little more on this.
And, Lisa, given what we just heard there, what do you think? Did police handle the situation correctly?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I read the 30-plus-page police report. I have to say based on what they knew at the time, not what we know now, I think the police did an adequate job of investigating this case. They interviewed all of the family members, including the mother who was an eyewitness to that shooting. They took the weapon into custody and processed it, and they took photos of the scene.
Because the mother was the only eyewitness and she entirely supported her daughter, Amy Bishop, saying this was an accidental shooting, it's hard for me to see how they would have proved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in any kind of a homicide case. The mother's story was consistent with Amy Bishop's story, and they didn't have anything else. So what they really didn't have was motive. Prosecution doesn't have to prove motive, but without a motive, I don't see how they would have gotten a conviction.
BROWN: But how -- I guess how unusual is it that the police handed Amy Bishop over to her mother and that state authorities, they didn't even question her from what I read, 10 days, right?
BLOOM: Right. It's correct. They did question her initially. She gave a story and that's in the police report. Then they said that she was emotionally overwrought, which she would be whether she was innocent or guilty --
BROWN: Right.
BLOOM: -- because she confessed to having shot her brother. They wanted to let her cool off. That's reasonable. However, they then waited 10 days. I think that is an extraordinarily long period of time to not come back and try to question her further. But again, without any other evidence and without evidence or motive, it's hard to see how they would have had a case against her. However, we do know today from what the D.A. is saying they certainly would have had a case for a weapons violation and for an assault charge, and they didn't even pursue that.
BROWN: So the university also didn't do a background check on her. But I guess even if they had, this incident with her brother wouldn't have shown up, anyway, since she was never charged for the crime, right?
BLOOM: You're right, Campbell. I mean, they wouldn't have a conviction to show up on a background report. They wouldn't have had a charge or even an arrest to show up on a background report. And that's the kind of thing that an ordinary background report would show. So unless the university is hiring private investigators to delve deeply into the lives of each candidate, they wouldn't find out this kind of information, and that would be a very expensive process for them to vet each candidate that thoroughly.
BROWN: What's unusual about this, too, Lisa, is it's just rarely a woman that you hear about opening fire in the workplace. It is unusual, isn't it?
BLOOM: It absolutely is. You know, there have been female mass killers. Aileen Wuornos comes to mind. She was the subject of a movie starring Charlize Theron a few years ago. She was put to death in the state of Florida for killing a number of men, but it is highly unusual that a woman, as you say, in a workplace violent setting, goes in with a gun and starts shooting. Hopefully it will stay unusual because this was a horrific outcome.
BROWN: Lisa Bloom for us tonight. Lisa, thanks so much.
Larry King starting in just a few minutes. And up next, tonight's "Guilty Pleasure," fashion show roadkill.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never quite recovered after that. There she goes.
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BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes, but first Jeanne Moos has tonight's "Guilty Pleasure," fashion show roadkill. We have to warn you, it is not pretty.
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JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If there's one thing that can bring a model to her knees it's falling to her knees. That's how New York kicked off fashion week.
JAY ALEXANDER, TRAINS MODELS: Not once, but twice.
MOOS: Less than five seconds after Agyness Deyn rose to applause, the fashion for Haiti relief show, down she went again. A perfect excuse to recall our favorite falls, to recall our favorite sprawls.
From catching a heel in the pants to falling through the runway. Apparently unaware the center was only paper, someone ran to her rescue. No one helped the time the great Naomi Campbell went down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get a photo, let's get a photo. Idiots. What is wrong with people?
MOOS: Naomi made her fall into an insurance commercial.
ALEXANDER: Because Naomi Campbell is smart.
MOOS: Jay Alexander teaches models how to walk and how not to. Carmen Electra demonstrated how not to, then the lady running to her rescue followed in her footfalls. Most of the time you can blame the high heels.
(on camera): What we have here is a potential shoe emergency.
(voice-over): A beaded spat come undone could undo a model here at the Pamella Roland show. But the shoes here are tame compared to the late Alexander McQueen's.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see the shoes we showed last year.
MOOS: Armadillo shoes, they were dubbed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, a couple of (INAUDIBLE)
MOOS: After falling twice in seven-inch heels at the show for Haiti relief, what a relief. Take those heels off. We've seen Miss USAs fall twice in recent years. We've seen models conk their heads. We've seen a martial arts performer make a hole in the runway, then watch the model who followed his act fall in. But there's one classic --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
MOOS: -- that leaves even the models chortling. Maybe it's the Washington, D.C. anchors --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never quite recovered after that. There she goes.
MOOS: Preserved forever on YouTube, replaying and laughing --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you try walking in those shoes.
MOOS: -- laughing and replaying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on.
(LAUGHTER)
MOOS: Fashion can stagger more than just the imagination.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: How many times did they replay it? That is it for us. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Have a great night. We'll see you right back here tomorrow night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
