Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Judge Orders Some Anthony Murder Case Evidence Kept Secret
Aired February 26, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. New secret evidence emerges potentially so damning, a judge allows prosecutors to keep it secret even from tot mom`s lawyers. Is it the smoking gun that paints tot mom as the only suspect in her child`s murder? This as we obtain hundreds of new and crystal clear photos inside secret investigative files, including what is believed to be the murder weapon used to kill little Caylee. Amongst the photos, close- ups of duct tape, liner from tot mom`s trunk, a Gatorade bottle and syringe both loaded with chloroform, the powerful knockout drug found in tot mom`s car trunk.
In court, prosecutors lay out a gut-wrenching scenario, little Caylee drugged, restrained, not one, not two, three pieces of thick duct tape over her mouth, over her nose, Caylee 2 years old, unable to fight back, looking directly into her killer`s eyes until she breathes her last.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you Casey Marie Anthony?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know that, Mom.
CINDY ANTHONY: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I grabbed the bottom of the bag and I pulled it. And I pulled it a second time and then a human skull dropped out with hair around it and duct tape across the mouth.
CASEY ANTHONY: All you have is speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was physically restrained, her killer would have to have restrained her arm by some means.
KRONK: I reached down with my meter stick to kind of adjust it because I thought it was a Halloween mask at first. Then I moved it. When I moved it, that`s when I saw the duct tape over the mouth area, and it immediately registered to me what I had seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the killer looked into her face, maybe he -- maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied.
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child.
CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s close to home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want that thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Secret evidence emerges so damning to tot mom, a judge allows prosecutors to keep the evidence secret even from the defense lawyers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The charges against you are first-degree murder...
CINDY ANTHONY: She is not a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child...
CINDY ANTHONY: She loves that child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer.
CASEY ANTHONY: I purposely misled you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you purposely misled us. So that was a lie.
CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.
CINDY ANTHONY: All it seemed like from day one, you guys were building the case against Casey as the murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duct tape over the face, the sticker over the mouth...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors describe how she would have been able to layer three pieces of duct tape over Caylee`s nose and mouth without the 3-year-old being able to pull them off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her killer would have to have restrained her arm by some means, applying tape while she was conscious.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: How dare you say that about my granddaughter!
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First one piece, then two, then three, so that no breath was possible.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!
CINDY ANTHONY: I have no idea who had -- who took Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: I spent the day almost completely by myself.
CINDY ANTHONY: I love her and I support her.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... completely and utterly miserable!
CINDY ANTHONY: I know exactly how hard it is that she`s giving up her life to protect her child.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry, and I don`t want to be angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to chief editorial producer Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what`s the latest?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, we recently found out that the prosecutors in this case went to Judge Stan Strickland and they said, and I`m quoting them, that "secret materials or certain materials and information have come into the possession of law enforcement." They said they had good cause to delay the disclosure of this information both to the defense and to the public.
So the judge agreed. He listened to their argument. He said, We`ll keep this information secret. No one will know what this information is for about 30 days. At that point, either the prosecutors can say, We need more time, we need to still keep this secret, or they will then release it to both the public and the defense.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO radio, joining us from Orlando. Drew, is there even a rumor, is there even a suggestion out there about what evidence is so damning that the judge has allowed it to be kept secret even from the defense? I`ve never heard of that.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: No, no. We obviously, you know, don`t know, because while this is all -- this is going to be withheld from the defense, another thing, it`s also going to be withheld from the public because of the way the discovery evidence goes. First it goes to the defense, then to the public. So you know, us reporters are also left questioning what exactly this evidence is.
GRACE: To you, Eleanor Odom. You`re a felony prosecutors. My question is, it`s often deemed unconstitutional to withhold evidence from the defense. Now, clearly, we`re not about to rush into the courtroom for trial. This thing is going to be delayed. It`s a death penalty case, not that that`s really an excuse. But I`ve the motion right here in my hands about evidence that is so damning that the trial judge has allowed it to be kept secret even from tot mom`s defense team. Have you ever heard of that?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: No, I certainly haven`t. And it makes me wonder if this is some type of evidence that could easily be destroyed, or maybe there`s a privacy right of somebody and that`s why they don`t want the evidence to get out just now. But as you said, Nancy, it`s going to get to the defense well before trial.
GRACE: Back to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, more has come out in recent developments of the case. And what can you tell me about these photos, the newly released photos, released by the police, and also what they are now saying is the murder weapon, not the knockout drug at all?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, a while ago, we got word that when they processed that crime scene where Caylee`s remains were found, they also found a Gatorade bottle that had a syringe inside it. Both of those items had traces of chloroform. So we got some better pictures of that, a better look at that evidence that was found.
But Nancy, what the state is saying is that although chloroform could have been a part of this, she could have been drugged with chloroform in order to incapacitate her, they believe that what killed Caylee Anthony was three pieces of duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, placed over both her mouth and her nose so she couldn`t breathe, couldn`t get any air.
GRACE: Joining me right now from CNN affiliate WFTV out of Orlando, Kathi Belich. Kathi, just when we thought there couldn`t be any more in the tot mom Casey Anthony trial in the murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee Anthony, another twist and turn. What are you hearing?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, one thing that I`m hearing is that -- you were asking earlier, Why does this have to be kept secret? From what I understand, investigators don`t want any interference. If they start releasing information about who they might be talking to and what they might be talking to those people about, the concern is that, you know, the evidence or the witnesses might be contaminated and there might be some interference by the defense. And so I think they just want to settle this, figure it out, and then we`ll hear about what all of this is, whether it`s relevant or not.
GRACE: Out to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, joining us from Sacramento, California. You and your team observed her when she was out on bond. What do you make of this newly discovered secret evidence that the judge himself is keeping under wraps?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, way back, I came up with the theory that there was a situation where Kronk had gotten information from somebody in the jail. And I think that`s what -- I think that`s what it`s about. It`s about Susan (ph), his sister, Crystal (ph), his son, Brandon (ph), and the judge keeping it under wraps for the prosecution so that nobody tampers with them or harasses them. They`re very concerned about being contacted by the defense.
GRACE: Now, in the last court hearing, tot mom breaks down in tears. And at the same time, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, storm out of the courtroom. What happened, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Nancy, that is when the prosecutors were deciding or actually laying out what sounded to me like the theory of their case. They were describing how when little Caylee was killed, she was looking into the eyes of her killer as that duct tape was put over her mouth. And the prosecutor said, We have to assume that she was looking into the eyes of her killer and that that killer was her mother, Casey Anthony.
Now, George and Cindy got very upset. Casey Anthony even started showing some tears in court. Somebody said -- and it sounded to some observers like it was Casey Anthony saying it -- sounded like she said to her attorney, Jose Baez, Make him stop. In other words, make the attorney stop describing this. And he said to her, I can`t. He continued to describe how Caylee was murdered.
GRACE: And as we go to break, we`ve got photos to show you of George and Cindy Anthony. Amidst all of the drama surrounding the case, they managed to sneak away on a Caribbean vacation. Long story short, who paid for it? Out to you, Ellie.
JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, there`s been a lot of rumors and suggestion that they made some deals. They licensed some video to various media outlets. And what`s interesting about this, that their neighbors are pointing out, George and Cindy are going on this cruise, but now it looks like their home may be foreclosed upon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time. But I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now. It hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was physically restrained, her killer would have to have restrained her arm by some means, applying tape while she was conscious. As the killer looked into her face, maybe he -- maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied, first one piece, then two, then three, so that no breath was possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve got a human skull.
KRONK: I looked at it and I examined it and I saw the duct tape, and I saw the eye sockets and I realized what it was. And I went, Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
CINDY ANTHONY: That was a cruel thing in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you talk at all to your granddaughter during those 31 days, on the phone or text or anything like that?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, number one is my granddaughter`s only -- she was only 2 years old at the time. She doesn`t text.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I haven`t talked to my granddaughter -- I have not heard my granddaughter`s voice since June 16th of 2008. Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Do not do that to me again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. I don`t want to make it hard on you.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you are! Yes, you are.
CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you. And it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be. But I know that, and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say abusive, mentally and physically, can you describe some specific instances of physical and mental abuse?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was in Maryland, he beat me up in front of his dad. And I had to go to the hospital. He would tell me to sit on the couch. If I moved, he would beat me. He duct taped my hands one time. And I was in Key West at the time and I was sitting in the chair, and he told me if I moved that he would beat me. He would know if I moved. And I couldn`t -- he duct taped my hands so I couldn`t call my mom and dad while I was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. There you`ve got essentially what the defense is going to be, from what we can tell right now. That is the ex-wife of the poor utility meter, Roy Kronk, who stumbled upon the body of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony. Apparently, he is the scapegoat du jour. Ellie, why was she on videotape deposition?
JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, yes, the defense went and deposed this woman. She was deposed by a couple of members of the defense team. She actually lives in Tennessee. Now, what she`s claiming is that when she was married to Roy Kronk, he once used duct tape to restrain her. She also claims that he was abusive. And she even went so far as to think that she thinks he might have had something to do with Casey Anthony`s -- or Caylee Anthony`s murder. So that is why this woman is being deposed by the defense.
GRACE: Ellie, doesn`t she live out of state or out of town?
JOSTAD: She does, Nancy. She lives just outside of Knoxville.
GRACE: OK. How would she have any idea if the meter reader was involved in Caylee`s murder?
JOSTAD: Well, right, Nancy. And also, you know, what people are saying about this woman is that perhaps she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. His attorney says that, you know, just for the sake of argument...
GRACE: Wait a minute. I couldn`t hear you. Control room talking in my ear. Did you say she had an axe to grind?
JOSTAD: Well...
GRACE: Were those your words?
JOSTAD: That`s the theory, Nancy, is that may be why she`s...
GRACE: Well, I only have one question. Weren`t they divorced?
JOSTAD: Exactly. They sure were.
GRACE: Well, OK. Yes. I think that says a lot right there. Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom. Renee Rockwell, if you want to get somebody bad-mouthing a possible -- somebody the defense wants to be a murder suspect, who do you go to? The ex. Get her on deposition. I can`t believe they did that. You know what? I hope -- I hope the defense plays that for the jury.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, her credibility will surely come into issue. But all the defense has to do is confuse one juror, Nancy. This is a death penalty case, and if this woman hadn`t been put up to it and if she`s believable and if she says duct tape and they come in and they talk about, Well, gosh, didn`t this guy go to the scene a couple of times and make 911 calls, that might strike one juror.
GRACE: What about it, Peter?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, Renee`s quite right. All the defense has to do is create reasonable doubt. Now, the state`s going to be jumping up and down and saying, duct tape, says the ex-wife, and duct tape on the body -- it`s just a coincidence.
GRACE: You know what?
PETER ODOM: It`s just a coincidence, they`ll say.
GRACE: You know, the first thing I would do, Eleanor? I would get all the filings that they each filed against each other at the time of divorce, and I`d read out everything they claimed on each other, especially what she claimed on him. Long story short, you know, the murder is going to get lost in the sauce of their divorce battle, which was years ago, to discredit this woman.
PETER ODOM: Right.
GRACE: That`s what`s going to happen, Eleanor.
ELEANOR ODOM: And the prosecutor just has to say, Hey, and by the way, was the ex-wife missing for a month and Roy didn`t report it?
GRACE: Everyone, tonight`s "Case Alert." We still want answers in the murder of 13-year-old Georgia boy, Chuckie Mauk. This month 1986, the little boy riding home on his bicycle, Warner Robins, Georgia, stops to talk to a man in his car. As Chuckie got back onto his bicycle, the unknown driver guns down the little boy near a local convenience store. Look at this boy. If you have information, please call Houston County sheriff, 478-542-2080. Tonight, we remember Chuckie Mauk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home.
CINDY ANTHONY: They can take our whole house down. They can level it. They can dig a big hole. I don`t care what the want. Caylee`s not there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crying every two seconds!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for me to accept she would do anything to Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As secret evidence emerges, evidence so damning, even the trial judge allows the state to keep it under wraps, this while attorneys on the defense team are dropping off the case like flies. Cindy and George Anthony, the grandparents, go on a Caribbean vacation. Now we hear their home is being foreclosed upon. In the midst of all this, claims against the meter reader who discovered Caylee`s little body.
Out to you, Leonard Padilla. Now they`ve dug up the ex-wife to bad- mouth the utility meter reader, but you say that he found out about the location of the body from none other but Casey Anthony, tot mom herself, via the jailhouse.
PADILLA: Yes, I think Casey Anthony herself revealed certain information that was passed on to Kronk by his girlfriend, who works at the jail. Subsequently, he bragged about it in front of his relatives.
I think the judge is looking at the prosecution side of the thing and saying the justice system and law enforcement system of this county could be on trial here if we don`t figure out what to do with this situation because if law enforcement knew about it and it was passed on to Kronk and he eventually came up with the information, did the people that -- like Sergeant Allen, when he came out and jacked (ph) me out, you know, and got all upset at me out at the Little Econ -- was he aware that the body was not there and that it was out there about a quarter mile from the parents` house? So right now, the judge is in a quandary, like, What do I do with this mess that`s been created...
GRACE: Right.
PADILLA: ... within the jail?
GRACE: Long story short, by coming forward, Kronk has now unwittingly become a scapegoat for the defense, along with a whole list of others.
To Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst, director of the cold case squad, Pine Lake PD. You know, it`s entirely possible Padilla`s theory, that tot mom talks behind bars and it gets back to Kronk.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: Sure. He`s visited the place four times. He made several calls. He found the body more than once. But Nancy, he didn`t -- not report the child missing for 30 days. He didn`t lie about his job. He didn`t lie about the nanny. He didn`t...
GRACE: Come on. Sheryl McCollum, do you really think the killer would be calling the police about the location of the body? That doesn`t make sense!
MCCOLLUM: No, it doesn`t make sense. That`s what I`m saying. She`s the one that lied about the job, the nanny, riding around with decomp in her car. Everything points to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much. I want to hear Caylee laugh. I want to be with my baby.
CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve never seen her be a bad mom. She loves her daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I still believe my daughter.
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONTY: I believe in my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re not telling me where she`s at.
ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at.
911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?
CINDY ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff. I find out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.
GRACE: The bombshell and most damning evidence in the autopsy report is that Caylee Anthony`s killer, allegedly her mother, Casey, put several overlapping layers of duct tape over her mouth and jaw.
ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. Maybe someone put the body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car was not my granddaughter!
BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother and, you know, maybe she`s right, maybe I am.
ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. That doesn`t matter. Because I know it`s not true and everyone that knows me knows that it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home.
WELLS (?): Is your daughter in a better place?
ANTHONY: No, she`s not.
WELLS (?): Are you worried about her?
ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now she`d be in the best place. She`s not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you learned that Roy Kronk had found the remains of Caylee Anthony, what went through your mind?
JILL KERLEY, ROY KRONK`S EX-WIFE: That he had done it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Done it, meaning?
KERLEY: He probably was the one that had murdered Caylee Anthony or had something to do with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you say that?
KERLEY: Because of the abuse that I went through. Because of the duct tape. Because -- there`s a lot of reasons I guess. I`ll just -- and the more I think about it the more my gut`s telling me he had something to do with it.
GRACE: Straight back out to Kathi Belich, reporter, CNN affiliate WFTV, joining us out in Orlando.
The defense claimed, at the very beginning, that she would be exonerated. That they had proof somebody else did the crime. Where`s that? Their list of witnesses was due weeks ago. They didn`t deliver. What does that mean? They can`t drum up any witnesses?
KATHI BLICH, REPORTER, WFTV: Well, it would appear that way at this point, wouldn`t it? Earlier last year, sometime late summer, former defense team member Todd Macaluso said in court there was substantial evidence showing someone else put Caylee`s body in those woods after Casey was already in jail on no bond. And they were given a deadline of early February, February 1st or 2nd, to produce that evidence for prosecutors. The judge ordered that. That day came and went and there was no evidence produced. So you have to wonder where is it? They said there was substantial evidence last year. Where did that substantial evidence go?
GRACE: Kathi Belich, various news outlets have paid the Anthony family hundreds of thousands of dollars. Is the defense running out of money? I mean, how much more do they need?
BELICH: Well, we do know that Casey Anthony was paid hundreds of thousands for photos, apparently by the ABC network. The Anthonys got apparently $20,000. That`s what they admitted to taking from the CBS network for an exclusive interview. We don`t know where that money went. They haven`t made mortgage payments on their house since last May. Their son had moved in last year, according to Lee`s attorney. He had moved in with them to help them pay the mortgage. Shortly after he moved in, is when they stopped making the mortgage payments. They went on a cruise last year. Who knows?
GRACE: Who paid for the cruise?
BELICH: Well, you know, it seems that they paid for it. I understand their lawyer had claimed that it was only $300 per person and that that had been planned months in advance, but it had been planned after -- either right after they stopped paying their mortgage payments or right before they stopped paying their mortgage payments.
GRACE: You know what, Kathi? I don`t fault them at all for going away on a vacation. If I was looking at the predicament they`re looking at, their granddaughter is gone. Their daughter is charged with murder. All the evidence points toward her. I`d get on the boat and never come back.
What about it, Bethany Marshall? A lot of people have thrown stones at the grandparents for going on a vacation. I`m surprised they came back.
DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I agree with you, Nancy. I think their whole life is organized around dealing with this horrible tragedy. Probably, they have not paid their mortgage because they`ve been socking away every dollar and every cent they have toward the defense. Now the defense is unraveling because they haven`t been paid. It`s hard to know where they`re going to turn.
Where I think Cindy and George have really fallen down, however, is the arrogance and the contempt they show in court. That they`re angry, they walk out. They shake their head when the story is told about the duct tape being put around the granddaughter`s mouth. That does not look good for them. It shows they`re angry toward the system rather than angry toward the killer. and it`s such an explanation as to why they could have raised a daughter who`s an alleged killer.
GRACE: You just raised a really good point, Dr. Bethany. They show more anger at the system than they do at the killer.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: Even if they don`t accept that their daughter is the killer, their anger still seems misdirected.
MARSHALL: Well, I think it`s what we would call, in my field, displacement, when you have anger toward one thing and you direct it toward another. Your boss fires you and you go home and you kick the dog. It`s that kind of thing. Who they should be angry at is their daughter. She has put them in this predicament, not --
GRACE: But, Dr. Bethany, can they even help it? I mean, we`re sitting here, talking about how they should feel or what their feeling is wrong somehow. Just if you could just try for a minute to be in their spot. Their granddaughter`s dead. They`ll never see her again.
MARSHALL: Nancy --
GRACE: And they have to deal with the fact that their daughter is the killer?
MARSHALL: Nancy, your question is so insightful and so right-on, because what I think is that the reality of what has happened in their family is simply undigestible. There`s no way they can digest it and deal with it appropriately. For that, they deserve some empathy.
GRACE: And on the other hand, Eleanor Odom, a lot of people argue they should care about Caylee and seek justice for her, regardless of who the killer is. I see that, too.
ELEANOR ODOM: Well, yes, Nancy, but their royalties are divided between their daughter and granddaughter. It`s really tough for them.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnal, board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver.
As always, Dr. Arnal, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Arnal, you`ve seen plenty of autopsies. Have you ever seen -- I have not -- and I`ve seen plenty of autopsies -- have you ever seen duct tape as the murder weapon, itself?
DR. MICHAEL ARNAL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I have not.
GRACE: Me either. I`ve seen plenty of cases where duct tape was used to bind someone or put across -- but never duct tape as the murder weapon. What would that theory be, Dr. Arnal? How would that work?
ARNAL: The duct tape is going to occlude the airway and cause asphyxia.
GRACE: And I want to go back to Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst, director of the Cold Case Squad, Pinelake P.D. They were working with a displaced skeletonized body. How are they going to prove duct tape was the murder weapon?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST & DIRECTOR, COLD CASE SQUAD, PINELAKE P.D.: Yes. Nancy, this is where it gets a little tricky for the prosecution to maintain. Again, the placement of the duct tape would prove that the airway was obstructed. There`s no question about it. Her nose, her mouth, there was no way for her to gain air. If her hands were bound, if there was any way to show that as well, then they`re going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, I hope, that that was, in fact, the murder weapon. There`s no --
GRACE: Yes/no, Eleanor Odom, you don`t have to prove how the victim was killed. Just that she was killed and the defendant did it.
ODOM: Exactly. That`s all you have to prove with the cause of death.
GRACE: As we go to break, happy birthday to our own superstar, covergirl, Jill DeVito. Happy birthday, Jill.
And happy birthday to Texas friend, Susan Monroe, who sent the twins beautiful homemade blankets. Happy birthday, dear, Susan.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m in a wooded area down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.
ANTHONY: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) detectives told them (EXPLETIVE DELETED), (EXPLETIVE DELETED). They got all of their information from me. Yet, at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You purposefully misled us. That was a lie.
ANTHONY: That was a lie.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Let`s just cut to the chase and end this right now, today. I`m not going to be able to handle this too much longer, Brad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying you`re lying?
ANTHONY: Because nobody`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) anything I`m saying.
KRONK: I grabbed the bottom of the bag and pulled it and pulled it the second time, and then a human skull dropped out with hair around it and duct tape across the mouth. And I went, oh, god, and immediately came out and called my supervisor and then called Orange County utilities and notified them that I had found human remains and that I needed the police.
ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m getting ready to end this. I`m getting ready to walk out.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It`s the place Casey Anthony has called home since she was just 3 years old. It`s where she raised her own daughter, Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It`s where deputies arrested the mother for murdering the toddler.
CINDY ANTHONY: We have not done anything wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Tonight, Anthony`s parents, George and Cindy, are on verge of losing the home they owned since 1989. Bank of America filed this notice of foreclose on the Hope Spring Drive property. Four years ago, the Anthonys refinanced their home for $121,000 and still owe nearly all of that. Since June 1st, 2009, the bank says the Anthonys have failed to make their $785 a month mortgage payments.
ANTHONY: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Don`t touch me.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: According to the Anthony`s attorney the couple`s latest financial problems can be partly blamed on the notoriety this case has brought the family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: As well as the emotional toll caused by their granddaughter`s murder.
CINDY ANTHONY: We have four bedrooms.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Cindy Anthony told prosecutors she had to leave her job because of stress-related medical problems. And she`s been on disability more than a year.
George Anthony has had trouble finding work. When he applies for jobs, according to his attorney, George Anthony is instantly recognized and instantly rejected, in part, because of who he is, and the company`s fear that he will attract unwanted media attention.
GRACE: We have been waiting for the defense to provide their witness list. Remember, at the get-go, they swore they had evidence to exonerate their client, tot mom, Casey Anthony, in the murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee. But that deadline has come and passed. Where are the witnesses? And we learn that defense attorneys are dropping off the case like flies.
Ellie, Ellie Jostad, what can you tell me about the last defense attorney to come off the case?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Todd Macaluso, the California attorney that was brought in. His expertise is cross examining expert witnesses. He was brought on to the team, but he had to step down because he`s actually under a bar investigation right now. They took disciplinary action against him because he apparently misappropriated some client funds. Now, he said it was all a mix up because his brother, I believe, passed away and the staff didn`t know what they were supposed to do with the money. Regardless he had to step down from the Casey camp. He can`t practice law.
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance.
NATISHA LANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just as Ellie said, that`s absolutely right. Not only that, they also lost their pr person who was there for the Baez Law Firm. They hired a new one. As you said, it seems like the defense is running into some problems.
GRACE: Back to you, Ellie. What can you tell me about the alleged stain that has turned out to be similar to the outline of a child lying in the fetal position in tot mom`s car trunk?
JOSTAD: Right. Nancy, we heard about this, this past summer. We got in discovery an e-mail that one of the FBI analysts wrote to her colleagues. She said, "Take a look at this picture of the stain in the trunk. It looks like you can make out the outline of a small child lying in the fetal position." Her supervisor wrote back to her, said, you know, we`re speculating, we can`t tell what made the stain.
But we just got a picture that some believe looks like the picture they were talking about. You can see a large stain on the trunk liner and see sort of a half-moon shape or a crescent shape there.
GRACE: Right.
And back to you, Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Tot mom was in court pleading guilty on multiple counts. What were they?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO: Those were all the check fraud charges when she went on a shopping spree with her friend`s checkbook. That was one of the few times she actually spoke in court. Surprised a lot of us in the media. She stood up and apologized to her friend and said she was sorry for what she did. Actually took responsibility for at least that part of the case, which was check fraud charges.
Now moving forward, which will be interesting, when she goes to court for the murder trial if she`s actually put on the stage, she will be a convicted felon.
GRACE: There you see what Drew Petrimoulx`s describing. As her daughter, as she says, is missing, the state says already dead, there she is, I believe this is at Target, stocking up on push-up bras and cases of beer. Unleash the lawyers.
Renee Rockwell, defense attorney; Peter Odom, defense attorney; Eleanor.
To you, Renee Rockwell, not a good look for your murder defendant client, as she`s searching for her daughter, she`s at Target stocking up on beer and push-up bras. Thoughts?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, thank God beer and push-up bras are not illegal. But anything that`s going to make her --
GRACE: That`s what --
ROCKWELL: But anything that will make her look bad, of course, the prosecution is going to put her on blast. I don`t think that`s any good, relevant evidence. What she`s buying. The fact she`s using somebody else`s card is, in fact, not good.
GRACE: You know what, in my mind, that`s the least of her worries about this video, Peter Odom.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If the prosecution needs to base its case on her buying cases of beer and showing pictures of her partying semi- nude, they must have bigger problems even than we know about.
GRACE: Really?
ODOM: Yes.
GRACE: What about it, Bethany Marshall? Because when she says she`s out desperately searching for her daughter, she`s too upset to tell her own mom the granddaughter`s gone. She`s partying on top of the tables at bars and stealing checks to buy beer and lingerie?
MARSHALL: She`s dancing on her daughter`s grave, isn`t she? It really supplies the motive for why she would want to kill this little girl, which is reclaim the life of a single woman.
GRACE: Eleanor?
ELEANOR ODOM: I agree, Nancy. She`s not searching. She`s at Target, picking up things to have a good time.
GRACE: And it`s on somebody else`s tab.
Everyone, just when you think we`re headed to trial and we know all the evidence, they threw a curve ball at us in the tot mom case.
Right now, "CNN Heroes."
(CNN HEROES)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST, THE JOY BEHAR SHOW: Tonight on "The Joy Behar Show," two teachers are suspended for dirty dancing. We didn`t do that when I was in school because we were too busy smoothing the feathers on our quills.
Then I spent some times from the kids from "Jersey Shore." Three days later and I can still smell the hair get. Oh.
And Valerie Harper gets laughs playing Rhoda and Tallulah (ph). She can get laughs playing Dr. Kevorkian. The four-time Emmy winner joins me.
That, and more after Nancy.
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.
PATRICK (?): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, MURDER SUSPECT: I just know.
PATRICK (?): How did you see it? Did you feel her pulse? Or did it go in one time?
VAN DER SLOOT: I just touched her and there wasn`t anything anymore. It was over.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Breaking news. Van der Sloot, the former suspect in the disappearance and death of Alabama beauty, Natalee Holloway, just confesses he dumped Natalee Holloway`s body in a swamp. This, according to the prosecutor, calls the new claim unbelievable. The confession coming in a new TV interview.
BETH HOLLOWAY, MOTHER OF NATALEE: When I hear Joran talking about her, at first, I want to come to the TV and kill him and peel the skin off his face.
GRACE: Peter Blanken is with us, the chief prosecutor out of Aruba. Mr. Blanken, did he in fact state that he dumped Natalee Holloway`s body in a swampy area?
PETER BLANKEN, CHIEF PROSECUTOR, ARUBA: That`s correct. That`s correct.
GRACE: And how did you confirm that that was not true?
BLANKEN: We found out that all the things we could investigate were not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joseph and Summer McStay mysteriously disappeared two weeks ago with their children, 5-year-old Gianni, and 3- year-old Joseph. The couple was last heard from on February 4th. On the 6th, both of their cell phones died. Then on the 8th, their Isuzu trooper was found two blocks from the Mexican border.
HANK CROSTIN, HALEIGH`S FATHER: Every night, I pray for Haleigh too.
MISTY CROSLIN, HALEIGH`S STEP-MOTHER: God, I pray for her every day, all day. I`m telling you I do.
I miss her so much.
HANK CROSLIN: My little girl. I miss her too. God is going to bring her home.
MISTY CROSLIN: God`s going to bring her home.
HANK CROSLIN: God`s going to bring her home.
MISTY CROSLIN: God`s going to bring her home.
GRACE: Why are, after all of this time, is she suddenly saying, I don`t think she`s going to come home?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, that is the $64,000 question.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORESPONDENT: We have breaking news in the search for former "Growing Pains" actor, Andrew Koenig. Police say a body has been found in a park and it may be him.
WALTER KOENIG, FATHER OF ANDRWE KOENIG: And I went to the site. My son took his own life.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class David Bentz, III, 20, New Field, New Jersey, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation for Valor. Remembered for devotion and hugs. Loved soccer, fishing, dreamed of being a professional poker player. Leaves behind grieving stepmother, Kimberly, and sister, Gabriel. David Bentz, American hero.
Thanks to our guests. But our biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us.
And a special good night from the New York control room. Good night, Brett, Liz, Rosy.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
