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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Corey Haim`s Agent; Seacrest Vs. Cowell
Aired March 17, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, there`s been a lot of talk about what led up to Corey Haim`s apparent fatal overdose. His agent Mark Heaslip joins me to discuss his client`s final days.
Then a mom who already weighs over 600 pounds says she wants to be the fattest woman on record. Well, I guess it`s nice to have a goal in life.
And Ryan Seacrest faced down Simon Cowell last night on "American Idol". Isn`t it about time these two got a room?
That and more right now.
Donna Simpson has a goal, and it`s not to lose weight. The 600-pound woman wants to weigh 1,000 pounds and plans on doing it by eating 12,000 calories a day; all this while First Lady Michelle Obama is out on a speaking tour begging Americans to slim down. With me now to discuss this is Dr. Drew Pinsky internist and host of Dr. Drew, "Sober House with Dr. Drew" on VH1; Jessica Kirson, comedian; and Dr. Marc Lamont Hill, anthropology professor at Columbia University.
Welcome to the show.
Let me start with you, Dr. Hill. What is her motivation here, do you think? Is it fame? Is it a death wish?
DR. MARC LAMONT HILL, ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: I think it`s a little bit of both. I think we live in a moment where people want to be famous. And with the Internet and with YouTube and all these things, everybody can be famous.
And you don`t even have to be famous for being good at stuff. William Hung is famous for not being able to sing. She`s going to be famous for not being attractive, for not being in shape. It sort of speaks to the cultural moment to me.
BEHAR: I know, but it`s very self-destructive, isn`t it?
DR. DREW PINSKY, VH1 HOST, "THE SOBER HOUSE": She`s going to die, I mean that`s the fact. If she weighs 1,000 pounds she`s not going to be able to breathe, she`s going to be prone to infections and pneumonias and it`s going to be a nightmare.
And people might look at her and say, "Well gee, maybe she`s trying to commit suicide." I don`t think so anymore than to say a drug addict is trying to commit suicide.
BEHAR: Well, you know Jessica, her boyfriend encourages this. What do you make of that?
JESSICA KIRSON, COMEDIAN: It`s sick, seriously. Because he`s making money off of her.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He`s a pimp of a fat girl.
KIRSON: Yes, he`s like, "Come on, come on baby. Come on, you want a sandwich? Come on. Come on." It`s nuts. The whole thing makes me sick. Seriously. Can I get a sandwich?
PINSKY: Yes.
But it does seem to have a fetishistic quality, doesn`t it? I heard she was -- didn`t she perform in some fetishistic world or something?
HILL: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes, kind of.
HILL: People get turned on watching her eat. Like eat another cheeseburger and they get hot from it.
BEHAR: Really? Is that true?
HILL: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: Well, I know people send her food. They send her McDonald`s gift cards. She spends a lot of money on the food also. She spends about $750 a week on just groceries. That`s a lot really for supermarket shopping. I don`t understand what she`s doing. How much could she make?
PINSKY: Doing this?
BEHAR: It`s pay-per-view, how much could she make? She can`t make enough to pay the food bills and rent and everything else.
PINSKY: But I think the point has been made that it`s not just about making money, it`s about seeking fame. And fame-seeking is an economist motivator. It has been seen and measured throughout all cultures throughout the world lately for the first time in history.
When kids are asked what they want to be when they grow up, it`s not, "I want to be a successful parent. I want to have security financially." I want to be famous and famous at any cost now. Everybody`s got a portal sitting on their desk that has the power that used to exist in a movie studio.
And everyone has the cultural sense they should be able to throw their hat in the ring and be famous just like anybody.
BEHAR: When did this start? The fame obsession.
HILL: Well, I think the Internet just makes it -- it bolsters everything. You have MySpace, you have Facebook, you have all these things where people have the stage and they`re the only ones on it. And they`re able to broadcast themselves to the entire world. So it just gets more and more intense every year with new technology.
BEHAR: But when Andy Warhol said, everybody in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes, that was before all of this explosion. So it was starting then, I guess.
HILL: Oh, absolutely. From the boom of television it started. But now it`s just easier, people have easier access to the full public view things.
BEHAR: There is sex now -- you asked before, did you ask me about her something -- she`s a fetish porn star. She`s a fetish porn star.
PINSKY: So she already has got something going on. I mean porn stars have sort of sexual addiction, it`s a fetish already. And fetish really means something that is necessary for sexual functioning. It`s something they`re attracted to but also something they kind of have to have for sexual functioning. And her fetish is the eating and the weight and all this stuff. And she`s just further exaggerating and gratifying that fetish.
KIRSON: So if she has a taco, she gets turned on?
PINSKY: If the guys are watching her.
BEHAR: The guys watching get turned on when she eats the taco --
KIRSON: Because they hate women and they want to watch them die.
HILL: Or they really love taco. It could be either -- I`m just saying, it could be either.
KIRSON: I really -- how can you watch someone in pain and get turned -- well, not -- I understand that because that`s like the whole thing watching someone in pain and it turns you on. But they`re watching someone die. It goes beyond that.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t -- listen, a fetish requires objectification. That`s what fetish is. It`s a way of making a person an object so they no longer have to be someone they`re emotionally engaged in. In fact, fetish is a way of distancing from the intense vulnerability of say, physical sexual contact.
BEHAR: I see.
PINSKY: And in this case, she`s an object to these people so they don`t think in terms of whether she`ll die or not.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But isn`t it, Dr. Hill, isn`t it a male thing to have fetishes?
HILL: No.
BEHAR: Come on --
HILL: Women have all kinds of fetishes.
BEHAR: Like what? Shopping is not a fetish.
PINSKY: No, I mean I know people. I have friends who are turned on by all kinds of things, whether it`s bugs, whether it`s pretending to be robbed, whether it`s pretending --
KIRSON: You know women who get turned on sexually from seeing a bug?
HILL: Absolutely.
KIRSON: Are you kidding me?
HILL: Absolutely. There are people who want to pretend that you`re a teacher. Not a professor, like a regular teacher --
KIRSON: Role-playing.
BEHAR: That`s different. That`s fun.
PINSKY: In Joy`s case, that`s cool.
You`re normalizing yours. But historically, let`s be clear, men did tend to sort of monopolize the fetish world. They populate the fetish world, but they are not the exclusive people there. They`re not.
HILL: Exactly. Men have the power to sort of normalize and to project theirs. They can demand what they want more than women can culturally demand what they want from men.
BEHAR: Do you have a fetish, doctor?
HILL: I do not.
BEHAR: Do you, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: I don`t think so. But maybe after this -- I`ll have to examine my own preferences.
BEHAR: How about you, Jessica?
KIRSON: I have a fetish. I`m a -- my fetish is your shows, actually. When I watch your shows, I get turned on.
BEHAR: That`s an addiction to an addiction show.
PINSKY: I`m going to be taking you to celebrity -- "Celebrity Rehab" is coming up soon. Don`t worry.
BEHAR: Everyone stay right there. In 60 seconds I`ll be joined by a woman who lost 400 pounds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I am back discussing Donna Simpson, the 600-pound woman who has made it her goal to be the heaviest woman in the world. Now I want to bring in Ruby Gettinger, the star of Style Network`s "Ruby" and the author of "Ruby`s Diary". She joins me via Skype.
Now Ruby, you once weighed 700 pounds. What do you make of Donna Simpson wanting to be 1,000 pounds?
RUBY GETTINGER, AUTHOR, "RUBY`S DIARY": I`m just in shock. Because I`ve done everything since I was 13 years old to lose weight. I`ve struggled with this all my life. And I`ve lost over 400 pounds now.
And I`m -- I was bigger than her and I couldn`t even breathe. This is an addiction like drugs and alcohol. It really is and I think --
BEHAR: Go ahead, sorry.
GETTINGER: I really think it`s a silent way of her thinking she can`t beat it. So if she can`t beat it, she`s just doing everything she can to get famous or it`s a sign of suicide. It`s just -- it`s not right. No matter what, this is not mentally healthy no matter what.
BEHAR: Her boyfriend is ok with it. What do you make of that?
GETTINGER: I think he`s ok with the things she`s getting. I think he`s ok with the money she`s getting. But I don`t think anyone would be ok with a mother of two children gaining this much weight.
I really feel sorry for her. I think she needs help desperately, really desperately.
BEHAR: Did anyone in your life ever encourage you to gain weight?
GETTINGER: Never. Never would anybody ever encourage that. And it`s amazing to me -- you know, I think that people are watching her as a joke because this world right now, America is suffering from obesity. It`s an epidemic going around.
And for people to tune into her, I think it`s a joke for them. I really do.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, thank you, Ruby and congratulations on your weight loss. You`ve taken the situation in your hands.
GETTINGER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Thanks very much.
So let me ask you, doctor, would this happen in any other country? Is this an American phenomenon? Sort of an excess of everything?
HILL: I think it`s a combination of things. There are other places where there`s excess. If you went to France, if you went England, maybe even Canada, you`d see something like this.
But America`s unique because in addition to having this sort of excess fetish, we also have a lot of money, we have a lot of fast food, we have a lot of resources that other places don`t have. So the combination of access and opportunity make America the perfect storm for people like this.
BEHAR: This whole story of this woman, this Donna, it`s like (INAUDIBLE) you know. How they stuff a duck and they stuff the animal. It reminds me of that, there`s something very animalistic about it. I don`t like. It feels creepy.
PINSKY: Yes. That filling up part is part of the fetish, I think.
BEHAR: And we have sex -- you`re an expert -- drug addictions, are these American phenomena?
PINSKY: Well, I`ll tell you -- from my experience the reason they tend to be so common in America is our families are such a mess. The fact is that what you when you see sex addiction, when you see various kinds of addiction, you often find childhood trauma where there`s sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, broken families, no father.
I mean, all of these things contribute to these processes for sure.
BEHAR: But you know, I was thinking of the girl Sidibe, what`s her name?
PINSKY: Yes, Gabby.
BEHAR: Gabourey Sidibe.
PINSKY: Sidibe.
BEHAR: You know, she`s a heavy girl.
PINSKY: Yes.
BEHAR: You`ve seen her, she`s a -- and I`ve met her. She seems so happy and so charming that I can`t -- and her mother seems to be very supportive of her. I can`t imagine that this girl had trauma necessarily that made her eat so much.
PINSKY: I agree with you. I`ve met her --
BEHAR: Yes.
PINSKY: -- and she is delightful. It made me --
BEHAR: She is.
PINSKY: Well, I only had a very short period of time with her, but what was spinning in my mind was whether this was a genetic thing, because it just didn`t fit with what we see in this country today.
BEHAR: What do you think about it?
JESSICA KIRSON, COMEDIAN: No, listen, speaking as a thin person -- oh, wait, no, I`m fat. But see, the point is that there is stuff that causes you to eat. I don`t care what anyone says. And there`s no way that -- that this woman that you`re talking about or the woman that`s on the Internet, there`s something going on.
PINSKY: Yes.
KIRSON: We do -- it is about stuffing your feelings.
BEHAR: But it`s emotional, a lot of it.
PINSKY: It`s the medicating that feeling stuck in the feelings and also people find that -- it`s gets a safety --
KIRSON: Right.
PINSKY: -- it`s a range of safety around other people.
BEHAR: I know but it could be just cultural. Some Italians, I grew up in an Italian family, it was always enormous amounts of delicious food around.
PINSKY: And it was -- well the people associate food with love in those (INAUDIBLE) systems too.
BEHAR: Yes.
KIRSON: I think that`s common, because I grew up in a Jewish family and it`s very similar.
PINSKY: Yes.
KIRSON: And it`s a lot of it is about food but there`s more food addiction, believe it or not, I think in Jewish families than there is drug addiction or alcoholism. I`m not saying there`s none but --
HILL: And there`s a little of biology there too.
BEHAR: There`s biology, that`s right.
HILL: Some people have a (INAUDIBLE). Yes.
BEHAR: But not to get to be that heavy.
HILL: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s technology. Thanks very much, everybody.
Up next, Ryan Seacrest gives Simon the smack down on "American Idol".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW: things get ugly on the set of "American Idol" and Corey Haim`s agent talks about the troubled actor`s final days.
Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Well, the top 12 "American Idol" finalists debuted last night, but the best performance of the evening came from two people who can`t sing a note, Simon Cowell and Ryan Seacrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN SEACREST, "AMERICAN IDOL": What part of the dancing or the other -- or other -- or other components of the performance looked desperate to you?
SIMON COWELL, "AMERICAN IDOL": Do you want me to talk to you or talk to Mike?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Game on.
SEACREST: I`m actually trying to help him out a little bit, buddy, because I wanted to --
(CROSSTALK)
RANDI JACKSON, "AMERICAN IDOL": Wow.
SEACREST: Are you all right with that?
COWELL: This is getting very uncomfortable. Back on the stage. Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, back on the stage.
SEACREST: I`m going to go back now.
COWELL: Please go back on the stage.
SEACREST: I`m trying to give him some constructive criticism.
COWELL: Ryan, get up.
SEACREST: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Step away from the desk. You could cut the tension with a spoon.
Back with me to discuss their supposed rivalry -- we`ll see if it`s real. Dr. Drew Pinsky and joining us now is actor, author and composer, Alan Thicke.
So, welcome, guys.
Hi Alan.
ALAN THICKE, AUTHOR, COMPOSER: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: So could you feel the sexual tension between Ryan and Simon.
PINSKY: I`m not sure we could call that sexual but I definitely felt the aggression. I felt it. I think that was real. I mean, they may have --
BEHAR: Do you think so?
PINSKY: It`s possible that the producer told them to open it up a little bit. But I feel like -- that`s sort of untypical of Ryan. And I think Simon was very kind and very (INAUDIBLE) to how he responded to it. But I think Ryan meant business.
THICKE: You know, I think when a cast has been together as long as they have, same with the drama cast, the scripted sitcom people there are always going to be little issues or tensions or conflicts.
BEHAR: Rivalries.
THICKE: But I personally think that all of that was theater.
BEHAR: You do?
THICKE: I think that it`s a wonderful show that tells a lot of stories. Not only of the contestants, but there`s the stories of the judges are a public fodder now. It`s a TMZ show, it`s reality show.
BEHAR: It`s a TMZ show.
THICKE: And they need -- their stories for tabloid purposes need to be out there and competing with -- with everything else that`s available. So I think that they probably welcome that kind of theater.
It may very well have been spontaneous, but I don`t think anybody`s repressing their feelings or their emotions.
BEHAR: Well, do you know, I work on "The View", and I get into arguments with mostly Elisabeth Hasselbeck about politics.
PINSKY: Right.
BEHAR: But truthfully I can say honestly and you know me well enough --
PINSKY: Yes.
BEHAR: To know I`m not a BS-er --
PINSKY: No. Those are real moments.
BEHAR: Those are real moments on the air.
PINSKY: Yes.
BEHAR: But then off the air, we don`t say let`s go out and do something. They`re spontaneous and then we`re fine off the air, we`re pals.
PINSKY: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, you know.
PINSKY: In a way, that context give you permission to go further than maybe you would otherwise if you`re in your personal life. You know that it`s ok to bring it out. It is sort of -- even "The View" is sort of reality show. And people lose track of the fact that "American Idol" is a reality show. I mean, that`s what is.
BEHAR: Yes.
PINSKY: And it`s not just about the contestants, it`s about the entire story across that theater.
BEHAR: Oh and every contestant has a story too.
THICKE: Yes.
PINSKY: And the ones that don`t make it and then the horrible sort of boredom that you see the judges going through.
BEHAR: Yes.
PINSKY: I mean it`s the judges` journey as much as it is the contestants` journey.
BEHAR: Right, do you notice on "Dancing with the Stars," there`s always someone they either break a leg, or they have the flu, or their mother dies, something happens.
THICKE: And push the -- I think they push them down.
BEHAR: Yes.
THICKE: They pushed them and kicked them a little bit.
BEHAR: They`re tripping each other, I think, Alan.
THICKE: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: But do you think Ryan maybe is like filing his oats because Simon is going to leave the show?
PINSKY: Do you think?
BEHAR: What`s going to happen when Simon leaves the show? I think he`s going to be in trouble frankly. What do you think about it?
THICKE: Well, I think that Simon is the reason that people so tuned into that show in the first place. He was such an outrageous personality, such an over the top personality.
BEHAR: Yes.
THICKE: When we`ve been used to seeing Ted Mack or star searchers, some very simple presentation old kind of performance shows.
BEHAR: Ted Mack, how old are you?
THICKE: That Simon gave it a whole -- I`m not --
BEHAR: How about the (INAUDIBLE) -- remember that? Less work for mother.
THICKE: Ok, I really heard him saying that.
BEHAR: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
THICKE: I think that --
PINSKY: That`s for sure.
THICKE: -- now as you said, this is a reality show.
BEHAR: Yes.
THICKE: And they change the cast every year. You know, now we have Ellen. Last year we got Kara.
BEHAR: How do you think she`s doing? Ellen?
THICKE: You know, I liked her a lot, especially at the very beginning. And whatever she was doing then I wish she were doing a little more of. I don`t know if she`s backed off a little bit. But --
BEHAR: Well, how much can you say? I mean, she`s not a music person.
PINSKY: Right.
BEHAR: So it`s hard --
THICKE: She`s a fan --
BEHAR: Yes.
THICKE: -- I think that it`s legitimate to be there as a fan -- you know the voice of a fan.
BEHAR: Really.
THICKE: Let`s face it, that`s who is voting.
BEHAR: Yes.
THICKE: Millions of people are voting. So if you`re a ticket buyer or a record buyer --
BEHAR: Yes I see that.
THICKE: I think it`s a perfectly -- I think it`s a perfectly legitimate role to have. And I think she`s hilarious when she chooses to be.
BEHAR: Yes, ok. Seacrest isn`t the only one throwing down as they say. Jimmy Kimmel was on Letterman last night and talked about the ongoing late night feud with Jay Leno. Leave Jay Leno alone. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, TALK SHOW HOST: I went on and did the "10 at 10" and I ask him -- well, he asked me 10 questions about nothing and I asked him 10 questions about stealing Conan`s job from him.
I don`t think Jay was happy because he went on the Oprah show and said I sucker punched him. He`s always running to tattle to Oprah whenever something happens. And I didn`t feel like I did sucker punch, but then I looked it up in the dictionary and it turns out, I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What is this? It`s like it`s double-teaming Leno like a menage a trois. What is coming -- going on, on television between men?
PINSKY: Well, how dare you, first of all? But secondly, I think it`s extraordinary they got together. Late night is so competitive. If you appear -- you know if you appear on one show, you can`t appear on the other. Here they were appearing on one another`s show.
I welcome that, that`s a great thing. If they have a common enemy so that always gets people together.
BEHAR: For the moment.
PINSKY: For the moment, yes.
BEHAR: Ok guys. Sit tight.
Tiger Woods will return to golf on April 8th and Elin will return to the bank on April 9th. And we`ll return in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM FURYK, PGA TOUR GOLFER: The first question now, someone is asked walking to the club house is going to be about Tiger coming back and that guy`s not going to answer that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Looks like Tiger`s fellow golfers are preparing for the worse from the fans and the press. Are they right? And will Tiger need three caddies? One for his clubs and two for his baggage?
I`m back with Alan Thicke and Dr. Drew Pinsky.
Tiger just finished a couple of months of sex rehab. Is that enough for him to now return to the Masters?
PINSKY: I`m afraid not. This is the one huge mistake that very important people and celebrities make all the time. They return to employment prematurely.
Robert Downey Jr. was the example of that. When he kept going back to work remember, he kept -- he would appear on these various television shows and he kept relapsing. He finally determined that his life was more important than his career. He took whatever time was necessary to get sober and it took years and now he has a flourishing career.
BEHAR: But this is a sex addiction, this is not drugs.
PINSKY: You`re right, it`s not. And to some extent there`s less treachery involved in terms of the consequence. But the delicacy of the process, it has to remain his priority in life. And golfing is very challenging. It`s a very competitive, stressful --
BEHAR: I find it to be the most boring sport. It`s really like watching paint dray. And yet I will watch the Masters.
PINSKY: When he`s there.
BEHAR: Yes, well, he`s there because this is the biggest thing since Obama`s inauguration media event that`s been planned.
THICKE: Well, those of us who like golf and try to play it, I think we`re kind of hypocritical. And it`s mostly gender issues, mostly men because, of course, we all jumped on the bandwagon at first. It was bad Tiger, down Tiger, and then they had three tournaments that were watched by three people. And then it`s come on back, Tiger. Hey table for 14 at the awards. My sister thinks you`re cute. I`ve got her number here.
You know we were all over him to get him back. And he did allude to something in his confessional that I thought was correct and important and that is that, you know, it wasn`t only the Fab 14. He screwed the whole world of golf. And there`s a whole industry. There`s a whole industry that exists there that golf courses and manufacturers and the people who work --
BEHAR: But really, did he harm it? In a way it brought more attention to it.
THICKE: Well, it`s just temporary.
PINSKY: I think when the day is done it will have brought more attention. But I`m telling you something, this is not going to go well. I can just tell. This is not going well.
BEHAR: You`re predicting?
PINSKY: It`s going to need -- it`s going to be a few steps forward, there`s going to need to be some --
THICKE: Will it be his putting, do you think? Or will it be --
(CROSSTALK)
THICKE: Somebody will take his putter --
BEHAR: What do you guys think about the marriage while we`re on the topic? Do you think she`s going to stay with him? She doesn`t wear a ring anymore.
PINSKY: I have no --
BEHAR: Maybe she`s waiting for the Kobe Bryant version.
PINSKY: It`s a common thing in wives of sex addicts that they wait until much, much later in the recovery before they start to recommit to the marriage. And I`m telling you having that wife stay is a really good thing. I know women everywhere think she should leave and how could she possibly? But the fact is she needs to work through some things too.
BEHAR: Should she sleep with him?
PINSKY: Not for a while.
BEHAR: No. Right. How long?
PINSKY: It -- I don`t know what`s going on between them. Maybe a year, and maybe -- I don`t know, it depends on what`s going on. That intimacy needs to be reestablished. I know Alan, it`s going to be tough for you -- I understand a little reverse therapy. But the fact is they need to be established on an intimate, emotional level before they get back to a physical relationship.
THICKE: I think he`ll come back, he`ll be better than ever, I think that`s in his nature is to be defiant and conquer that world again.
PINSKY: But it`s the wrong way to do an addiction --
THICKE: I think he`ll have a new cell phone. I think --
BEHAR: Well, that`s good.
THICKE: There will be some heckling, but that will be ok, unless he turns around and it`s Elin. Then you know, more work to do, more Dr. Drew.
BEHAR: Thank you so much for joining me, guys. You`re always fun to have. Always on the (INAUDIBLE). Usually you`re on satellite. I love having you here, Alan.
Don`t forget you can catch Dr. Drew on VH1`S "Sober House".
Up next, I`ll have an update Corey Haim`s last days.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: An investigation into a prescription drug ring that authorities say is linked to the death of actor Corey Haim has led to an arrest. Joining me to discuss this news as well as the former Teen Idol`s last days is Corey Haim`s agent Mark Heaslip, Mark thanks very much for joining me. How close of a friend were you to Corey?
MARK HEASLIP, COREY HAIM`S AGENT: I actually became very good friends with Corey. I mean I live in Seattle, Washington. So me and Corey pretty much had a phone relationship. As well as me being his agent. He eventually he told me I was his best friend.
BEHAR: Really?
HEASLIP: Yes.
BEHAR: Did you try to get him of drugs?
HEASLIP: I didn`t get him off drugs. Actually Corey when he filmed - - I wanted him -- I told Corey -- because he got highly recommended to me about a year and a half ago after he filmed the movie "Crank 2 High Voltage." and I brought him aboard the agency telling him the number one thing I want you to do is to get yourself clean because I can`t rep you. I represent 200 to 300 other actors -- And I`m not --
BEHAR: Mostly kids, right?
HEASLIP: Mostly kids, yes. And Corey promised me that, you know, with a good recommendation from the movie "Crank 2." they said he was good on the set, he is ready for representation. I had a talk with Corey. He said he wants to get himself clean. So when I got Corey, I got him the lead role in a movie called "American Sunset" in Canada. And once Corey filmed that movie, he had to be expedited from Canada back into the united states because of his past drug problem. He used to have to pay his attorney money every time he came back over the border. His lawyer said we need to get Corey a doctor in the United States, an M.D. doctor that Corey will stick on to a program so he doesn`t have multiple doctors. So Corey will show he`s working towards getting clean.
And Corey did get a doctor in California and stuck with the same doctor. He followed his program. This doctor did not want to drop Corey off from where he was to zero pills because the doctor was saying he would have a seizure. So Corey was weaned down. He struggled in the beginning. I mean I`m not saying it was easy for Corey. But he actually really stuck with this doctor. He actually will tell you that this doctor was the best doctor he ever had.
BEHAR: Shouldn`t he have been in a rehab facility?
HEASLIP: He`s been in hundreds of rehabs. Not hundreds, but a lot of rehab facilities. It doesn`t work for Corey. He wanted -- the three elements I personally thought if Corey would work, if his career would come back, he stuck to a program with a doctor. And sticking to the program and, you know, I personally felt that that would be the number one thing for Corey, and him wanting to be clean. He has to first want to be clean.
BEHAR: Right. That`s probably the first thing in getting better. But four bottles of pills were found in Corey`s apartment. Vicodin, Valium, and a muscle relaxant. Where do you think he got the prescription?
HEASLIP: After he completed his program with his doctor, his doctor, the last stage of his program. Corey was doing the best -- the last six months I had Corey, he was so low on medications, it was unbelievable. Compared to where Corey was to where he got himself. It wasn`t easy, but he did it.
BEHAR: What do you think caused his death then?
HEASLIP: I think, you know, my opinion, I personally feel because he -- he was -- his doctor and Corey, Corey was telling me about two weeks completely off everything. And he didn`t have the money to run anywhere to get anything at that period. So his doctor took him to an addiction specialist.
BEHAR: Yes.
HEASLIP: To get the mental help so he doesn`t want to go back and get pills.
BEHAR: I see.
HEASLIP: And he did, but this guy prescribed Corey four prescriptions. And five days, I think it was five days prior to when Corey passed. And I think he had a reaction to the medication. I don`t think he O.D.ed. His tolerance level is too high to where he was after talking to his mom. He didn`t even take any medication the last day from what his mom said.
BEHAR: I see. Well, thank you, Mark, very much for weighing in on this. Thanks very much.
HEASLIP: Thank you.
BEHAR: Okay, death like Corey Haim`s highlight the growing abuse of prescription drugs in this country. It`s also one theme of a new show on TLC called "Addicted." and a few of the subjects of that show join me now. Jeremy Avilla of the recovering addict. Jeremy`s mom Jo Burnett and Kristina Wandzilak. A family interventionist. I said that right didn`t I?
KRISTINA WANDZILAK, INTERVENTIONIST FOR TLC`S "ADDICTED": You did say that right.
BEHAR: Okay let me start with you Jeremy. We just talked about Corey Haim and what happened to him and how he had a very sad death. That could have been you, right?
JEREMY AVILLA, RECOVERING ADDICT: I definitely feel so, you know. It could be anybody who abuses any kind of prescription pills, especially, you know, combination of them in my opinion. It`s very dangerous.
BEHAR: Now, you`ve been sober for over 100 days now. How did you --
AVILLA: That`s right.
BEHAR: How did you get introduced to drugs in the first place?
AVILLA: Wow. Well, when I was younger, I always -- I mean, when I was 12, you know, me and my sister would smoke weed and drink. And, you know, that kind of stuff around the house. I was at home alone a lot. So that was kind of how it started. So after that, I was very curious. And I just kept trying new things and new things and until I found oxycontin.
BEHAR: Oxycontin.
AVILLA: Which seemed to -
BEHAR: That`s a tough drug.
AVILLA: Yes, that was.
BEHAR: That`s a tough drug. Kristina, 100 days is still a precarious time for him, is it not?
WANDZILAK: Yes, it is a precarious time.
BEHAR: Yes.
WANDZILAK: But Jeremy has -- I have tears in my eyes. It`s so moving to me to watch his recovery, to see how far he`s come. To - I mean he`s a young man and he`s really owned his piece of this. He`s really done a lot great work and he is still in treatment. I mean he is still in continuing care, which, you know, for a young man it isn`t an easy thing to do to stay in treatment -
BEHAR: Right.
WANDZILAK: For half a year. I mean it will be -- he`ll be in treatment for you know seven eight months by the time this comes to a close.
BEHAR: I watched the show. It`s very interesting that show. Very interesting. And Jo, let me talk to Jeremy`s mom, Jo. You seem to blame yourself quite a bit in the show I noticed. You blame yourself.
JOE BURNETT, JEREMY`S MOTHER: Well, I think the blame I place on myself is the codependency that I was so wrapped up in with Jeremy. I don`t blame that I`m an addict or there`s addiction in my family. I feel if I would have been stronger in my recovery and co-dependency, maybe we would`ve come to this intervention sooner and it would have been more successful.
BEHAR: Well I -
BURNETT: And the first time we did it, I would say the first time we did it, I did not take all of Kristina`s suggestions, and that is why we failed. I went back to my old ways of co-dependency and rescuing Jeremy and that enabled him to continue to use.
BEHAR: I know it was a dilemma for her. Let`s look at the show, it doesn`t hold back. Let`s take a look at a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WANDZILAK: The risk for Jeremy is overdose. You know, oxycontin is a very heavy drug to be using. And clearly he`s sick and addicted, and he`s going to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Jeremy, were you aware you might die? I mean Kristina says it in the voiceover, sort of. I mean you didn`t say it directly to him in the piece. But were you aware that you could die? Did you know that?
AVILLA: Yes. I definitely knew what this drug could do to me. But I just didn`t care. You know, it was worse to live without it. That`s the way I felt. It was worse to live without it.
BEHAR: Oxycontin is an odd drug. Rush Limbaugh uses it, it`s been reported. Where do you get the drugs? Where do you get Oxycontin?
AVILLA: Well, you can only get it from doctors, you know, it`s, you know, I hadn`t really heard of it until I was about 17. But when I -- once it came around, literally, all my friends from where I`m from got hooked on that. Like I mean, I have dozens and dozens of friends who have you know, O.D.ed or in jail or in and out of rehabs because of this drug. It`s crazy.
BEHAR: It`s a very --
AVILLA: I have never really heard of it before.
BEHAR: Strong, it`s an opiate, is it not?
WANDZILAK: Yes. It`s a very powerful opiate.
BEHAR: Yes. You know it`s interesting also -- in the show, you also -- I was watching the beginning of the show when you`re going to the intervention group. You`re very manipulative. Is that what you find, Kristina, a lot, with these guys, these kids who are drug users? He was late, then he didn`t want to come. Then he turned on his grandmother. Then he wasn`t going to go into 90 days without his mother. All of that, is that typical?
WANDZIALK: Absolutely. That`s addiction and that`s how it holds families hostage. Families, they`re laughing --
BEHAR: Why are you laughing? The mother`s laughing. Why are you laughing? Jo why are you laughing? What`s funny?
BURNETT: I`m laughing because that`s what it is. Kristina said it, that`s addiction. I mean it is insanity. And you`re in the midst of it and you don`t even see it. So you know taking a step back now, we can laugh. Because what were we thinking? You know, we`re all, you know, catering to Jeremy or mostly I am. I mean it`s ludicrous. He`s so dysfunctional and yet we`re all looking at him to make everything okay.
BEHAR: Yes.
BURNETT: It`s nuts.
BEHAR: And you know I like the part where he`s got -- he can`t let go of his mother. He just -- you`re saying don`t touch your mother. And he just kept touching his mother. And it was like you could see that physically the codependence there. Fascinating.
WANDZILAK: And you know that`s what I love about "Addicted", you know what I love about "Addicted", unlike on anything else on television, "Addicted" really tells a story of family intervention. That`s what I do. I`ve been doing this for 14 years, Joy, long before intervention was popular. And I threw out the idea of surprise intervention and making it all about the addict. I believe that addiction happens to families. Not just individuals. So you have one person, right? Smoking oxycontin, but five, or six, or seven people profoundly affected. And Jo spoke so articulate about that.
BEHAR: I feel sorry for Jo.
WANDZILAK: That he`s smoking and her life is affected.
BEHAR: Yes and she has others in her life. She has a husband who killed -- and a whole bunch of stuff. Okay everyone stay right there, we`ll be back with more subjects from TLC`s "Addicted." when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may be her child, but this is my child. And you need to have respect for me. And you need to have respect for her and get your (EXPLICATIVE DELETED) head up.
BURNETT: Oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. I`m tired (EXPLICATIVE DELETED)of it.
AVILLA: You didn`t have to come here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re right, I didn`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a rather provocative moment from TLC`S new show "Addicted." and we`re back talking to some of the people featured on that show. You know, that was the scene with grandma. How did you feel when your grandmother spoke to you like that, Jeremy. Tell me what went on in your mind?
AVILA: Well, at the time, you know, I was pretty out of my mind, you know. I was very unreasonable. I was feeling very selfish. I felt that this is my mom, you know, this is mine. I failed to realize that my mom`s not just a mom. She`s also a daughter, someone`s daughter, she`s my grandmother`s daughter. And you know, now that I can take a step back and look at that, I can just realize truly how selfish that wrong I was. But at the time, I didn`t care. I didn`t care about anybody else`s daughter. All I cared about what was mine and that was my mom and somebody was trying to take my mom from me. Because that`s the way I felt.
BEHAR: It`s a very difficult position for the mother, I think. Because it`s so touching to you -- you can`t stop crying.
WANDZALIK: I just feel -- I`m so proud -- I am proud of Jeremy.
BEHAR: I can see he`s come a long way.
WANDZILAK: I`m proud of his mother, all my clients. I consider it such a humbling job to be a part - to be a part in it.
BEHAR: I was saying before that I felt bad for Jo. Because as a mother, if you see your kid in trouble like that you want to help them. You want to give them money so they don`t go out and get into trouble. And yet that help is exactly what impedes their recovery sometimes. That`s called enabling, I believe.
WANDZILAK: Not sometimes, all the time.
BEHAR: Yes but what was your choice, Jo? Tell me about that, Jo. What was your choice? If you let him go, you were afraid anything could happen to him, right?
BURNETT: Well, that was the craziness, the catch 22 that I was in at the time. I was wanting to hold to him so tightly and protect him so he wouldn`t die as others have in my family. But at the same time, by doing that, I was hastening his death, his addiction. We were both spiraling further into it. And you`re right, so what do you do? What I need to do was take a step back and say until you get clean and sober, you are not welcome here. I no longer can have addiction in my life anymore.
BEHAR: Yes and Kristina, when you said to him, you can`t see your mother for 90 days, he objected to that.
WANDZILAK: You think?
BEHAR: Yes, big time.
AVILLA: Just a little bit.
BEHAR: And then when you said that, you know, when you said I will not come here if my grandmother`s here, you kind of let him off the hook on that one.
WANDZILAK: Until the end.
BEHAR: You gave into that one.
WANDZILAK: Because you watch --
BURNETT: she never lets him off the hook.
WANDZILAK: Yes because you watched the whole episode. But when you`re in crisis like that, in the middle of an intervention like that and Jeremy was -- Jeremy is very hard to contain when he`s high, frankly. So my job at that point, I just wanted to get him in the car and get him to treatment. And I knew that once he arrived in treatment, you know, I`ve known Jeremy and his family for years now. So I knew once he got to treatment and detoxed and returned to a more sober state that he -- I would be able then to talk with him about his relationship with his grandmother in a way that he could hear it.
BEHAR: I see, yes, Jo, tell me about the family history. Because I understand you have quite a bit of addiction in the family.
BURNETT: Well, I myself am a recovering addict. I had 18 years clean on March 9th. My husband, my first husband Jeremy`s father was a using addict. And he died in 1996. He committed suicide. My brother also committed suicide in 1998. And my sister in 2001. So we have a long history of addiction in our family.
BEHAR: It`s almost like, did he have a chance, this kid? With those - that kind of history.
BURNETT: Yes --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
BURNETT: He did have a chance. I spoke to Jeremy many times about the addiction in our family and that he has a predisposition to this. And he needed to be careful. And so he had the information, and he felt, and he will tell you this that it wasn`t going to happen to him. He was going to do what he wanted to do. And you know, that was Jeremy`s path to do that. I do not think that just because there`s addiction in a family that means that somebody`s going to be a using addict.
BEHAR: No but wasn`t Jeremy 12 years old -
BURNETT: You make the choice.
BEHAR: When your husband committed suicide? He was a child?
BURNETT: Jeremy was 8.
BEHAR: 8 years old, sorry.
BURNETT: Yes.
BEHAR: I guess that`s part of the trauma too.
WANDZILAK: Well yes, that`s Jeremy`s trauma. But that`s Jeremy`s trauma and that`s, you know, something he works a lot on in treatment. And yes, that`s his story. That`s Jeremy`s story. But just because you have a certain story -
BEHAR: Oh yes.
WANDZILAK: Just like Jo said doesn`t mean that you will become addicted. I think the other thing that Jeremy had in his life a mom that is 18 years clean and sober.
BEHAR: Right.
WANDZILAK: So he has an extraordinary example of what recovery, you know what is possible about a recovery.
BEHAR: Right and obviously a mom who loves him very much.
WANDZILAK: And I think Jo spoke very articulately to what so many young people in this country go through, myself included, and that is the thought it won`t happen to me.
BEHAR: Right.
WANDZILAK: I can try this and it won`t happen to me.
BEHAR: Right, good luck to you, Jeremy, and to you, Jo.
AVILLA: Thank you.
BURNETT: Thank you.
AVILLA: Thank you Kristina.
WANDZILAK: Bye.
BEHAR: Okay thank you all for joining me. "Addicted" premieres tonight at 10:00 p.m. on TLC. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: A catholic school in Boulder, Colorado, is preventing two students from re-enrolling because their parents are lesbians. Joining me now is Colleen Scanlan Lyons, a parent at Sacred Heart who is not gay but has joined a protest against the school`s decision. Welcome, Colleen. Now, you said "this is wrong and against the teachings of Jesus," quote, unquote. That`s a controversial position for you to take, isn`t it?
COLLEEN SCANLAN LYONS, THINKS SCHOOL IS BIASED AGAINST LESBIAN PARENTS: Well, I don`t think so, Joy. I have actually had 16 years of catholic education. My identity is really catholic and when I think about the teachings of Jesus, I think about the golden rule, love your neighbor as yourself. I think about inclusion. I think about tolerance and love. And that is the root of the teachings of Jesus, so when I heard about this decision, I was just outraged and incensed and deeply saddened.
BEHAR: These other children have to leave but your children can stay. So that makes you feel bad?
LYONS: Yes, exactly. I feel like the Catholic Church is not uniformly kind of applying their church law or their doctrine here. I mean, they are kind of doubly discriminating because on one hand they`re discriminating against these children of lesbian parents which is wrong to discriminate against children for what their parents are doing.
Secondly though, they`re discriminating against people for being homosexual, for being lesbian. And I feel that that`s really unfair because I take birth control and they`re not kicking out my child. I know people who have premarital sex. They`re not kicking out the children of those parents. So I feel like the rules here are not being uniformly applied, and they are really just coming down to this one issue, which is completely unfair and wrong.
BEHAR: Well, one of the people who runs the school, I guess one of the monsignor or whatever, I don`t really know his title, I was reading something where he said the children will not be happy in a school like that because the church preaches against homosexuality and then these children are in that environment and it`s not good for the children. How do you respond to that?
LYON: Well, I really don`t get the sense that this is the majority view of the teachers at the school or of most of the parents at the school. I cannot, of course, claim to speak for everyone at the school, but the atmosphere I have always experienced there has been one of inclusion and tolerance and more the teachings of Jesus that I was talking about.
So I think that what he is saying is ridiculous. I have also talked to other parents and they have said that their children have never heard that this is against the teachings of the church or anything. So I really don`t know why they`re suddenly coming out against this and it`s just wrong.
BEHAR: Even Bill O`Reilly came out against the decision of the school. So you know that there`s something in the air when Bill O`Reilly is against it.
LYON: Exactly.
BEHAR: I mean, are you considering -- I was thinking what can you do? The most you can do is protest it as a person who is just supportive or pull your own kid out of the school and have a lot of parents say, look, we`re not going to take our children to this school. That would be an actionable thing to do. Do you think --
LYON: That`s exactly right.
BEHAR: Do you think you would get to this point?
LYON: We actually are seriously considering that, Joy, because I feel that it`s hypocritical for me to bring my daughter there every day when I don`t agree with the politics here, and while I don`t think that she is openly being taught this, I personally don`t want to give them my tuition.
BEHAR: Right.
LYON: I mean, that`s really just wrong.
BEHAR: Thank you so much, colleen, for your support for this situation and for being on the show. Good night, everybody.
END
