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Rick's List
Interview With Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele; Democrats Nearing Health Care Reform Vote?
Aired March 18, 2010 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Here's what's making the LIST today.
RNC Chairman Michael Steele visits the LIST live to talk about President Obama and the Republican pushback.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: I have decided to cast a vote in favor of the legislation.
SANCHEZ: Dennis Kucinich also joins the LIST live to tell us why he really flipped.
U.S. forces have al Qaeda on the run in Pakistan, so much so, an al Qaeda lieutenant is overheard pleading with Osama bin Laden to provide leadership.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want to leave. I want to stay here, because I enjoy it so much.
SANCHEZ: He wouldn't leave, so they built an earthen dam around his house, while the floodwaters continue to rise.
And an infamous polygamist has the book thrown at him for sexual assault of a child bride.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Topping the LIST right now: Republicans are playing Hardball. Just in the last couple of hours, they began voting in the House to try and stop the Democrats from using the deem-and-pass strategy to push health care reform through. This is what they say they want to stop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Every kind of scheme known to man to try to get it through the Congress without a vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now, it's only fair to point out, though, that Republicans used that same strategy many times, including back in 2005, when they increased the ceiling on the national debt.
At the White House, the president is delaying his overseas trip again. Why? Why? Well, because it looks like there may be a health care vote some time this weekend, and he wants to make sure he's in town monitoring it.
But here's what may be the most important development of the day. The long-awaited CBO report, that's the respected Congressional Budget Office, that report is in. It details how much this reform bill will cost, and it also estimates how much it will cut the deficit by.
So, there's something in it for both sides. That's important, by the way, how much it's going to cut the deficit by, for fiscal Dems in particular, who are sitting on the fence right now.
Here's Speaker Nancy Pelosi talking about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: They say a picture is worth 1,000 words. Well, a number is worth a lot, too. I love numbers, and today the number from the Congressional Budget Office that this health insurance reform legislation will save $138 billion in the first 10 years, and $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years speaks very eloquently to the deficit reduction that is in our package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Looks like the cat that ate the canary when she says it's going to save $1.2 trillion in the deficit over the next two decades. Again, that's what she said.
Here's what Republicans are doing. They have been trying to stop the Dems from voting or from deeming.
So I have asked our congressional correspondent, Brianna Keilar, to help us out with this.
I can only imagine that there is a lot of Machiavellianism going on up there, and I don't understand what all the maneuvers and the procedures are. Can you first start out by letting us know what the Republicans are trying to do, since they're in the minority, to stop the Democrats, who are in the majority, from passing this thing?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Democrats have a plan, Rick, to do sort of an indirect -- an indirect passage of that Senate bill, along with the changes that they want to make to it.
And just moments ago, Republicans' efforts to prevent this indirect bill and really -- indirect vote and force the direct vote...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That's the deem?
KEILAR: Well, that's right. The indirect vote is the deem and pass. And Republicans just failed in their effort to stop Democrats from doing this.
So, what you have, basically, is, you know, the House has to pass the Senate bill. House Democrats, they have to pass the Senate bill and they have to pass the changes bill. What deem and pass does is, it allows Democrats to vote on what's called a rule, which really just embeds the Senate bill into the changes bill here.
Let me staple it together, all stuck together now. And so when you -- when you pass the changes bill, which is what they want to emphasize, well, looks what comes along with it, but they're kind of not taking this direct vote on it, and it gives them political cover, Rick.
SANCHEZ: So, it sounds like whatever it is that the Republicans just tried to do to not let the deem-and-pass strategy work failed.
KEILAR: That's exactly right. It did fail.
And what you have is Republicans trying to do anything procedurally they can do to get in the way of Democrats and Democrats doing anything procedurally that's possible to pass this bill. They're both dishing it out.
SANCHEZ: All right. So, from what I understand now, there's this new 72-hour rule, which means that whenever the Democrats have agreed to what it is they're going to vote on, they're going to wait a certain time period so that the opposition and the American people and everyone involved can take a good look at it before they see the vote.
That would mean, just doing a little math here, that this thing isn't going to be voted on, until, what, you tell me, but, what, Saturday, Sunday, something like that?
KEILAR: Sunday afternoon, because just -- I think, in the last hour, the bill was posted online. So, you have the changes bill, that is. The Senate bill, we know what that looks like. The changes bill has been posted online -- 72 hours takes us into a Sunday-afternoon vote, assuming that the Democrats can scrounge those 216 votes that they need to pass this, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, 72 hours. That means on Sunday afternoon. Now, will take us through this as best you can. I know for a lot of the folks watching at home who don't follow the machinations of what happens in Washington every day, it gets a little confusing.
They will pass which version on Sunday? And after that, what will they have to do before this vote becomes law?
KEILAR: Well, the soonest that they could pass anything would be Sunday.
So, if Democratic leaders are confident that they have the votes, they would pass both this change bill, and they would pass the Senate bill, because they would go along together in this deem-and-pass tactic that they're doing.
So, then, the House at that point, it would be kind of finished, assumed they succeed in passing...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: The House.
KEILAR: Yes. And the Senate bill, as you know, Rick, it has already passed the Senate. If it passes the House on Sunday, it's ready to be signed into law by President Obama, a huge health care reform bill, keeping in mind there's a whole lot in there that many Democrats don't like. That's why the changes bill would then go over to the Senate, where it only needs 51 votes.
That's a whole other process. It's going to be really drawn out.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KEILAR: We're not done on Sunday is what I'm telling you. I'm going to be seeing a lot of you.
SANCHEZ: Well, but to be clear, though, there's a possibility that if they use the deem-and-pass method, they could have this thing wrapped up Sunday and the president could be signing it on Monday? That's a possibility, right, not a probability, but a possibility?
KEILAR: It's possible, technically possible. But the only thing he would be signing into law would be this, because it will have passed the Senate and the House. This will have only passed the House. The changes bill will have only passed the House, and it would need to go through the Senate before the president can sign these adjustments into law.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
All right. Hey, Brianna, thanks so much. Let us know. I know that you're drilling down on this there in Washington, and if you learn anything else, just get back to our producers and we will get you right back on the air.
KEILAR: Will do.
SANCHEZ: Meanwhile, I want to show you something real quick. This is interesting. This is Representative Mike Pence. You know, we collect what lawmakers are saying at the moment they say it. I keep a list every day of what people relevant to news stories are tweeting about. And here's somebody who obviously is relevant to this discussion.
It's Representative Mike Pence, Republican. He says, "Only in Washington, D.C., can you spend a trillion dollars and say you're going to save the taxpayers money."
All right, he's obviously upset about the CBO numbers that came back that we were telling you about just moments ago and everything else having to do with the possibility that this health care reform measure will be passed, maybe by this weekend, as you just heard Brianna say.
SANCHEZ: Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I shopped here Sunday. It was -- it was disturbing, and it was appalling that, in 2010, you know, bigotry is still alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Imagine that you're at a Wal-Mart store, and you suddenly hear, over the loudspeaker, that all black people have to leave the store, over the loudspeaker. It happened. But how? That's what we want to know.
Also, is al Qaeda being crippled in Pakistan by our forces, so much so that a message to Osama bin Laden has been intercepted saying, we need help, and we need leadership down here; rescue us? We're going to let you know about that story as well.
And in about 20 minutes, Michael Steele is going to be dropping by. He wants to visit the LIST, and we're glad to have him. Get your DVRs going, folks, Michael Steele and Rick Sanchez mano a mano.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have got some news coming in now that I want to share with you, because it involves someone who has been on this show several times.
I have interviewed Dan Choi. And we have just got these pictures. Look at these pictures. They're coming in from the White House. That's Lieutenant Dan Choi on the left handcuffing himself to the fence in front of the White House. Apparently, he's had enough.
He, along with another outed officer, Captain Pietrangelo, have literally used their handcuffs to make sure that they can't be removed from there, but we understand now they were. These are the pictures coming in.
Choi has been fighting for repeal of don't ask, don't tell. His discharge, as you know, from the U.S. Army is pending Senate Armed Services Committee's approval. We just heard testimony about this, this morning. And there they are still.
Look how still he is. There were some protesters, by the way, there. They were saying that they're going to back these guys. And here come the officers who plan to remove them, by law, for fencing themselves to government property, no less the White House. And this is where I imagine they cut the handcuffs off and take them away. It's a difficult story to watch, and certainly a very emotional one, and one that affects millions of Americans, and one that's also being discussed in the halls of Congress as we speak, both on the lawmakers' side, on the Pentagon side.
Just -- just today, as a matter of fact, senators heard from three former military officers whose military service ended when their sexuality was revealed, and they say they want to fight and defend their country, and just because they're gay, they should not be prohibited from doing that.
There's Dan Choi, once again.
By the way, we have got a tweet. You know, I tell you all the time that we follow tweets here. That's why we have named this RICK'S LIST, and this is one of the tweets. He tweets a lot, by the way. This is Lieutenant Dan Choi. He's written about his own cause.
He says: "Join at Get Equal. Take action. Demand equal rights. Sign the pledge."
It's one of many tweets that he has been sending out since he starting this campaign. We will let you know what happens.
meanwhile, topping our homeland security list, al Qaeda is on the run. In a front-page story in "The Washington Post," CIA Director Leon Panetta says al Qaeda is hobbled because of relentless U.S. attacks inside Pakistan. In fact, Panetta says it is so bad, one of al Qaeda's lieutenants is begging Osama bin Laden to come to the group's rescue and provide some leadership.
I mean, that's an amazing story to hear. Well, here's what else Panetta told the paper. "Those operations are seriously disrupting al Qaeda. It's pretty clear from all the intelligence that we are getting that they are having a very difficult time putting together any kind of command and control, that they are scrambling, and that we really do have them right now on the run."
There's something else I want to read you from "The Washington Post." It says -- this is about that message that was intercepted by U.S. forces. I find this -- I find this to be a bit of news that most Americans don't hear all the time. Here's what it says about this message.
There's an al Qaeda lieutenant. He is overheard pleading with Osama bin Laden himself to come to his group's rescue and provide some leadership to the group. That's a guy who apparently was on a phone trying to reach Osama bin Laden in one of those caves in Waziristan or wherever it is they are supposed to be.
Now, do you want more evidence from the government that al Qaeda is getting cut off at the knees in Pakistan? U.S. intelligence officials are offering this up as proof. We have been checking, the killing of a top al Qaeda commander in North Waziristan, and that we understand was earlier this month. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we can work with is factual information, and as of right now, there is no factual information to discredit Mr. Sikes' statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. Now the trooper who came to the rescue says, yes, that Prius, it was out of control as far as I could tell. That's going to be on Brooke's list. It's coming up.
And then what's on Jessica Yellin's list? It's getting ugly in Washington over health care. Both sides are digging in their heels. Can Republicans stop the vote? Jessica is going to be picking up that part of the conversation in just a little bit. There she is. And we will be right back. This is RICK'S LIST. We're scrolling forward, folks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have got some breaking news. Let me show you the scene that we're talking about right away, because this one of those stories -- because it's an international story, sometimes, we want to set the scene.
Remember the Taj? This is the hotel there in Mumbai. And this is where terrorists literally took over the entire city, it seemed. They certainly took over this hotel for the longest time. One of the guys who was involved in that was a guy named David Headley. And we understand that there is some breaking news having to do with Mr. Headley's plea.
Jeanne Meserve is at our homeland security desk and she's following this for us.
Jeanne, what do you got?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Rick, David Headley had pleaded not guilty to all charges. He was faced with 12 counts. Today, he was in court to change that plea to guilty on all 12 counts associated with this case.
David Headley, 49, U.S. citizen, resident of Chicago, was alleged by the government to have planned an attack on a Danish newspaper, and then later it was alleged he had gone to Mumbai, India, and done surveillance in preparation for those attacks that you were just showing pictures of. So, he has gone to court now, after cooperating with the government, we know, and changed his pleas from not guilty to guilty.
That means he will not get a trial. It's also now assured that he will not get the death penalty.
(CROSSTALK) SANCHEZ: I don't how much you have been following this case, but I'm just surprised that a guy living in Chicago, an American, would somehow get involved in an organization that is involved in the terroristic activities between the Hindus in a country like India and in Mumbai. Do we have any idea about how all that came about?
MESERVE: You know, he is a -- is a man who, my recollection is, his father was Pakistani.
SANCHEZ: Ah.
MESERVE: He had spent some time overseas. He had a different name, in fact, and changed his name to David Headley, so the government alleges, so it would make it easier for him to travel and he would not be recognized...
SANCHEZ: Ah. Huh.
MESERVE: ... as somebody of Pakistani descent.
And the allegation is that he had some co-conspirators in Chicago who helped create a cover story for him, which made it easier for him to go overseas and do the surveillance activities.
SANCHEZ: That makes a lot of sense. I'm so glad we have you, Jeanne, to be able to clear things up like that for us, because, when you look at a name like that and you look at his picture, and you think, David Headley, how did that guy get wrapped up in something like that?
I appreciate the information.
MESERVE: Well, I would say, Rick, that a lot of people seem to be getting wrapped up in stuff like this with names that wouldn't appear to be in any way related to the Middle East. We just had this Jihad Jane...
(CROSSTALK)
MESERVE: ... and so forth.
SANCHEZ: I was just going to say.
MESERVE: So, the list is growing of Americans who appear to have gotten wrapped up in this kind activity.
SANCHEZ: It's kind of frightening, as a matter of fact.
Thanks so much, Jeanne. We appreciate the information.
Take a look at this
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL STEELE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: I and Newt and others are looking at how we define this time, a time where we have an administration that's overstepping its reach on health care, overstepping its reach on the economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I'm going to talk live with that man right there, Michael Steele, who talks about overreaching. He's going to be joining me about, oh, about eight minutes here. Stand by. Get those DVRs ready, folks. This will be a good one.
And then Dennis Kucinich is going to be stopping by, and we're going to be talking as well on what happened on that air flight with -- with the president of the United States that made him change his mind. Arm-twisting? Maybe something else? We don't know.
Also, we will have that interview as well. And make sure the DVR is running on that one. And then find out who makes our most intriguing list. Who is today's most intriguing person in the news? If you want to know, you got to hang tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, trying to negotiate a lasting peace between the Palestinian and Israelis is tough. But it was a hell of a nice break from health care.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Vice President Biden doing the Biden stuff last night at the Radio and Television Correspondents Dinner in Washington. You're going to be hearing what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Saint Patrick is credited with banishing snakes from Ireland. There were never any snakes in Ireland. He, Saint Patrick, just made that up, which, for the first time, I realized, explains why he's the patron saint of FOX News.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Look at Bill O'Reilly. He ain't liking it, folks. I don't know. I'm not sure.
Jessica Yellin, she's ready to talk. It's time for Yellin's list.
What did you think of our vice president there? I mean, he was kind of like aggressive, but with a smile on his face toward his opposition, his loyal opposition, the public relations firm for the Republican Party otherwise known as FOX News. JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they always make a dig at the media in different ways at these events, Rick, but I kind of felt sad for the vice president, because he made a couple of jokes that went over pretty flat. And I thought, if the president had delivered the exact same joke, the crowd would have roared with laughter.
And I just thought poor Biden can't catch a break on this stuff. I guess the bar is pretty high for him because people are usually laughing at his gaffes. So...
SANCHEZ: Well, why? Is that is that people are nervous and the sit on their hands when this guy talks because he's going to say something less than...
(CROSSTALK)
YELLIN: Goofy?
SANCHEZ: Yes, goofy is a good word.
(CROSSTALK)
YELLIN: Maybe that's it, because I remember when Vice President Cheney used to do these things, he would get huge laughs, just because nobody expects him to be funny.
SANCHEZ: Right.
YELLIN: So, with Biden, it's a little different. You're like, oh, please don't let him say something awful.
SANCHEZ: All right, let me ask you a very important question...
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... because the Democrats came out today, like Nancy Pelosi looked like the cat that ate the proverbial canary, and she comes out with this CBO report, like, look, looky here, look what I got, I'm so excited.
And it seemed like what she was saying was, look, I got a lot of folks in my party who are real nervous about this health care bill, and with this piece of paper, I might be able to convince them.
So, let me share first with the viewers what it is that she said. She basically is saying that this thing is going to cost $940 billion over the next 10 years, $940 billion. Folks, $940 billion over the next 10 years is what it is going to cost, but, on the other side, it will save Americans because it will reduce our deficits by $1.3 trillion over the next two decades.
I don't know what to make of that. Here's the Democrats' take.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That makes this legislation the most significant effort to reduce deficits since the Balanced Budget Act in the 1990s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The largest deficit reduction package since 1993.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), MAJORITY LEADER: This bill is the biggest deficit reduction bill that any member of Congress is going to have the opportunity to vote on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This bill will probably be the most significant bill to reduce the deficit that any of us have ever voted for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: These guys are like, yes, finally, we got one. Look, there are some Dems who don't want to vote with the rest of the Dems. Will this CBO report go a long way toward winning them over?
YELLIN: Yes, Rick, there are about, by CNN's count, six Democrats who are holdouts on the bill right now who are not saying which way they are going to vote largely because of costs.
So, it is feasible that this will really push them over, together with lots of lobbying by the president and the speaker. The problem is, is it's still that $940 billion price tag, and no matter how you spin it, that is a powerful election-season ad to run against someone, they voted for that much money.
So, there's going to still have to be a lot of lobbying between now and a yes vote for those guys. And I should point out that the Democrats are supposed to be in a big meeting at around 4:00 today. And you can imagine they're going to get a lot of pressure in that big meeting to change their votes.
SANCHEZ: You know, interestingly enough, I got Michael Steele coming up in just a little bit. I also have Dennis Kucinich coming on the show today. Everybody wants to be on the LIST ever since you joined.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: Oh, that's it.
SANCHEZ: How many other Dennis Kuciniches out there that might be able to be turned? Do we -- has anybody got a count on this thing?
YELLIN: Yes. Yes. Our Hill team has been tracking it, and here we have our fabulous Rob Ewing (ph), who does these things. And we have about 34 people, I think, who are undecided fence-sitters who could be pushed one way or the other.
There are different issues, have to do with abortion rights concerns, cost, and then just the general direction of the bill overall.
SANCHEZ: Jessica Yellin and her list.
YELLIN: Good to see you.
SANCHEZ: And we thank you for taking the time to take us through it. Appreciate it.
Take a look at this, folks, from our celebrity news list. Brand- new Oscar winner Sandra Bullock had a horrible thing happen to her while she was filming her latest really good movie, "Blind Side," and it has to do with her husband and a woman who has more tattoos than 20 drunken sailors. Ain't kidding. That's ahead.
Also, what should I ask Michael Steele? He's coming up next. Let me know. Just go to ricksanchezCNN on Twitter and I will ask your question, if it's a good one.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. Welcome back, I'm Rick Sanchez. You are on "The List."
And on the list of politicos today, Michael Steele, the chairman of the Republican National Committee. He's joining us now for "RICK'S LIST" for the very first time. You're on "The List," sir. Welcome, chairman.
MICHAEL STEELE, RNC CHAIRMAN: Hey, it's good to be on "The List," I think. Hey, Rick, what's up, man?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: "I think." Is that with a wink and a nod?
STEELE: We'll see after this interview whether it's good to be on "The List."
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Ah, let's be kind to each other.
STEELE: Yes, indeed.
SANCHEZ: What's interesting about you, you're no Haley Barbour, OK. You talk to hip-hop groups, you talk to comedians, you talk to minorities. You have really tried to reach out and some Republicans feel uncomfortable with that.
I heard a quote recently where you said, "Look, if you don't want me doing this job, fire me." That's what you said. And you said, "And until then, shut up." Why did you say that?
STEELE: Yes. Well, you know, I -- frustration largely because I feel so passionately about what we're doing right now. We're on the cusp of watching this country make a decided step into a future that's unchartered, unprecedented, and I think, you know, on both sides, you want to get it right. You want to get it right.
And certainly in my job as the national chairman, beyond the building the party and raising the money and winning the elections, it's actually articulating ideas and values and principles that connect with people, that tie all the policy together. And so sometimes you get frustrated. Washington can be a very static place, you know.
SANCHEZ: Who is pushing back? And why are they pushing back?
STEELE: Well, I don't know. It's everybody and it's no one. I mean, it's the system.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
STEELE: It's the way this place is geared. And so I'm not from this place, even though I'm a native Washingtonian, grew up in Washington, D.C., this area. But I've never bought in to this political class system. I've felt that I've always been and should be a little bit outside of that.
SANCHEZ: You and I are similar in that way because, you know -- obviously, look, I'm a minority, and sometimes I've always felt like I don't -- oftentimes I feel like I don't fit in either.
STEELE: Right.
SANCHEZ: Do you sometimes feel the pushback or the fact that you don't fit in because you're from the outside, because you're African- American? Can you give me a sense of what that is, to be in the Republican Party and be the chairman?
STEELE: Sure. I think it's less because of skin color and those things as it is more of, you know, hey, this is a -- this is a good boy, old-boy network. We've known each other. Democrats, Republicans, you know, they play tag each day with each other on the issues of the day.
And, you know, as I said and was quoted saying many times, you know, I'm a tea party guy. If I weren't in this job, I'd be out there raising heck with tea partiers, because I fundamentally believe that this process comes alive when people are in it and they're involved and their voices are heard, which is why as chairman, I've tried to really focus our attention on listening to the people.
And as we look at health care, for example, we look at the numbers as they come down today --
SANCHEZ: Well, yes, let's get in to health care in just a little bit.
STEELE: You want to focus on those things. SANCHEZ: By the way, there's one thing I wanted to share with you, because this is interest. This is Dick Armey. He's attacking Tom Tancredo, both are Republicans who are major voices in the party movement. Let's play this for the chairman if we possibly could. I want to get his take on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMEY: When I was the majority leader, I saw to it that Tom Tancredo did not get on the stage because I saw how destructive he was.
Republicans got to get this right and get off this goofiness that they have. Ronald Reagan said tear down that wall. Tom Tancredo said build the wall. Who is right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here you have one Republican going after another Republican essentially saying that his message is hurtful to the party. Do you agree?
STEELE: Well, I'm not a fan of Republicans going after each other. I'm a firm believer in Reagan's 11th amendment -- thou shall not attack another Republican. And I think the party differences need to get vetted and aired out within the confines of the party and not on a public stage.
But given what he said, yes, given what he said, I'm not familiar with all the particulars. They served together --
SANCHEZ: You know what Tom Tancredo said.
STEELE: Yes, but this is the broader point. This is the broader point. I think we're at a point right now, Rick, when it comes to the issues that affect your community and my community, my party had better be smart. It had better be prepared.
And it had better be ready to engage in a way in which we don't speak in old language, in old ways, but understanding and appreciate the situation and the conditions on the ground as they are, and come to the table with commonsense approaches that doesn't alienate but embraces people.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
STEELE: You don't have to back away from principle to do that. You don't have to, you know, feel like you're giving up something to do that.
What you -- if you know and are standing strong in those principles, it's easier to this do, to say to someone, we want you to -- we welcome you. We want you to assimilate and be a part of this wonderful American experience. But, yes, there are some things you got to do first, and here they are. People are -- SANCHEZ: No, well said. I think you handled that question with deftness, and I think you talking about -- but you carefully slipped in the word "alienate," which is exactly what some folks have felt in this country in both sides of you what I both know very well.
Let me do this -- because we got to get to some of these hard- hitting things when we come back. Can you stay a moment?
STEELE: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: We need to get a commercial and then we'll come back and then you and I will go mano a mano on health care and all that good stuff.
STEELE: You got it, buddy.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Guess who is on "The List"? Michael Steele, the chairman of the GOP. He's good enough to join us. He's standing by. Here he is, as a matter of fact.
Here's the perfect question to ask you that I've always wanted to ask -- why do Republicans keep saying we have the greatest health care system in the world? That is not true. It's like we're treating Americans like little kids who can't handle the truth.
Americans are big people. You can tell them, look, our health care system's in disarray. That's OK, isn't it?
STEELE: No, because it's wrong!
SANCHEZ: You think we got the best health care system in the world?
STEELE: Excuse me. Rick, when you get sick, do you get on a plane and go to France for health care?
SANCHEZ: No, but if I lived there, I probably would.
STEELE: No, I'm going to ask you a question.
SANCHEZ: All right, go ahead, sorry.
STEELE: Do you get on a train and go to Canada? No, because those folks are coming here for the health care system. When you have 85 percent of the American people say I like what I got -- everybody acknowledges what the problem is, it's one of cost and it's one of how do you begin to bring into the system some 12 million to 15 million people who are legitimately outside of the system?
And the president and the Congress are now talking about 30 million people, the president himself brought the number down in the state of the union address, but now it's back up to 30 million for the purposes of -- I think the cynical purposes of trying to get this bad bill passed.
SANCHEZ: Mr. Chairman --
STEELE: We have a very good health care system in this country. Is it perfect? No.
SANCHEZ: Very good, perhaps, sir, but it's not the best in the system.
STEELE: Absolutely. I put this system up against any in the world, period.
STEELE: Well, no, because you're talking about people who go and get care at any particular place in time. We're not talking about the system in terms of how it works monetarily. Monetarily, it's a disaster, in fact.
STEELE: Well, yes. There's a huge cost problem here that will become exacerbated by what this administration is about to do. Even CBO, you know, says, well, the number's an estimate at $940 billion. What does that tell you? In Washington-speak, that means that's the floor of what this will cost.
Can you just give me an honest number, Rick? How much do you really, legitimately think, using the president's number, 30 million people to the health care system that you just said doesn't work is going to cost the American tax payer? How much do you think?
It's $940 billion over 10 years, so you're telling me an additional $940 million a year is going to make all our problems go away?
SANCHEZ: According to the calculations that we did and according to the calculations the Democrats are announcing today, it's going to save in the deficit for the United States citizens $1.2 trillion. Do you believe that's not true?
STEELE: I got two words for you -- or three words. Three words.
SANCHEZ: Go.
STEELE: "That's a lie."
SANCHEZ: OK.
STEELE: It will not.
SANCHEZ: Well, you're arguing --
STEELE: It will cost us trillions of dollars.
SANCHEZ: You're arguing with the CBO. You're arguing with the CBO now.
STEELE: Let me tell you about the CBO, all right?
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
STEELE: Since they've been taken down to the wood shed at the White House last year, you can't believe the numbers. The CBO is only as good as what you put into it, as what you give it. So, CBO is only -- if you shave off some numbers, if you don't include certain things, if you don't put it the right way, their calculations are not going to reflect the real value or cost of the program.
So, let's be honest about that. Only -- the number is only good as what Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and the president gives them. And they have given them bad numbers.
SANCHEZ: Is that fair to criticize the CBO now when during the Bush administration the CBO's numbers were represented and respected almost every time they came out with numbers by both sides? Now all of a sudden the CBO's not to be believed.
STEELE: Yes, but President Bush never called the director of the CBO down to the White House to get the number he wanted out of it. President Bush never made the CBO the centerpiece of his legislation in order to get things passed. They put in the real numbers and came up with an honest assessment.
SANCHEZ: You're saying the president of the United States has corrupted the CBO with a personal phone call or visit?
STEELE: Well, I'm saying --
SANCHEZ: Come on, now.
STEELE: I'm just saying that, look, this whole process has not worked on behalf of the American people, and the reality of it is that when you look at the bottom line here, the taxpayers, the middle- class, is going to have a heavier burden to pay once this thing passes and lord help us if it does.
SANCHEZ: But here's the hard truth. Here's the hard truth. Here's the truth about this system that we keep saying is the greatest in the history of the world -- analysts and economists of nearly every ideological persuasion, left, right, and in between, say the unrelenting lives in the medical cost are likely to wreak havoc in this system and beyond it, and pretty much everyone is going to be effected directly or indirectly.
Doesn't that tell you that this system has to be reformed?
STEELE: Yes. And no one's arguing that, Rick. No one's saying, Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, are saying the system doesn't need to be reformed. We get that.
Where the battle lines have been drawn for the past year now is over how and to what degree you reform it. Republicans have argued from day one, let's do a bottom-up, doctor/patient-centered process in which we put insurance companies in check, we put trial lawyers in check with frivolous lawsuits, we create portability opportunities for those who have preexisting conditions and the like. We take care of small businesses by creating pools in the marketplace for them to go in collectively, to have insurance companies compete for those insured. There are ways to do that that doesn't mean upending one-sixth of our nation's economy.
SANCHEZ: First of all --
STEELE: Yes?
SANCHEZ: Two things. Many of the things you named have been put into the system because of the --
STEELE: No, they haven't (inaudible).
SANCHEZ: Coburn and Price and some of these guys came up with wonderful ideas, right, and I think everyone agreed they were good ideas, and some have been included.
But let us for the sake of argument say we made the system based on just those changes. Two things -- a, you wouldn't be able to give 30 million Americans who don't have health insurance the insurance they need, and, b, that wouldn't stop the downslide in the economy. You can't do it with band-aids, can you?
STEELE: Now, we've done the analysis on this bill such as it's been put out. And under this bill, that you're saying now -- you're saying that what Republicans are saying won't insure everybody. By 2019, 23 million Americans will still be uninsured in this bill.
SANCHEZ: Right.
STEELE: That's 23 million people. So, effectively, we will only be insured after spending trillions of dollars, seven million more people.
The reality is the approach the administration is taking here is just wrong. It is -- it is not based on how markets actually work. And whether we like it or not, we have a health care system that is based around certain market principles.
You're now having the government come in and inject itself into this market and is trying to redefine it around government principles. And as you know, there's not been an entitlement program created on this planet by this government, meaning the federal government, that has not cost us money in the long run, that has not gone bankrupt a la Social Security, Medicare, if I can go on.
SANCHEZ: This is not an entitlement program. If it was, why would the Dems be saying they would not vote for it because the public option isn't in it? The public option is an entitlement program. This is not an entitlement program.
STEELE: The Dems are running around and saying you have a right to it, so they are treating it as if it is an entitlement program. They are going to bureaucratize it and impose it on the American people as if it is. And what we're saying is it is not. It is a system that individuals should be able to go into freely, choose those pieces that best work for them and their families, and then move on without government standing over their shoulder.
SANCHEZ: I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this discussion with you. I thank you, sir, for taking the time.
STEELE: Hey, man, good to be with you.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate it. Let's do it again, is that all right?
STEELE: No, we'll be back.
SANCHEZ: It's a good argument. I appreciate it. I'm sure there's a lot of people that appreciate something like this because it's a healthy discussion. The chairman of the Republican Party, Michael Steele, good enough to join us.
We're going to be right back. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We've got some breaking news coming into us right now having to do with the governor of South Carolina, Mark Sanford. We understand, and this is according to the Associated Press, that he has just pled no contest, meaning he is not going to fight the charges, essentially, to $75,000 that he's going to have to pay back to the state in travel charges that he billed his own state while he was having an affair with a -- Argentinean or Brazilian? Argentinean woman, right? Argentinean woman after telling his staff -- thank you, Andreas -- after telling his staff that he was hiking in the Appalachians at the time.
All right, we've got some copy in front of me now. Let me make sure everything I'm telling you is, in fact, as we're receiving it. According to the Associated Press South Carolina Mark Sanford has agreed to pay $74,000 to settle charges his travel and campaign spending violated state ethics laws. That's the specific charge.
The Republican governor is accused of breaking 37 laws, including improperly using a pricey plane ticket to Argentina where he saw his mistress that he infamously called his "soul mate."
Under a consent agreement signed Thursday, Sanford doesn't admit guilt but does not contest the charges. So new information coming in on Sanford. That's the very latest on that. Obviously we're going to work to try and get some independent confirmation as well. And as we get more details, we're going to be sharing it you.
Stay right there. We'll be coming back in just a moment with more on this and what's going on with the health care bill. I'm Rick Sanchez. You're watching "The List."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And this is what we're doing right now. Go to that camera -- that camera. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
What do you think?
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the "Brooke Block."
SANCHEZ: It's kind of hard to write sideways when you're wearing a suit.
Here's the list. Tell me what you have, because I have been on the radio -- I have been listening to the radio on the way into work today, and no story was more discussed than the story about a man who yelled out at a Wal-Mart that all the people in the store who are black should leave.
BALDWIN: Right. OK. There you go. Sunday night you're in south Jersey. You're in Wal-Mart, massive superstar. What do you normally hear on the PA system?
SANCHEZ: "Attention Wal-Mart shoppers."
BALDWIN: Thank you. Instead of hearing a special, they heard "Attention Wal-Mart customers, all blacks need to leave the store." No way!
SANCHEZ: Are you kidding?
BALDWIN: No way! But the shoppers heard it. They couldn't believe their ears.
SANCHEZ: We can't believe our ears either.
(LAUGHTER)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRIETTA HARRIS, WAL-MART CUSTOMER: What they said was all black people leave the store. And I'm like, did they really say that? Some people were stopping, looking around. And then some people just left their carts and some people left.
It was disturbing and it was appalling that in 2010, you know, bigotry is still alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So she was obviously in the store. And I talked to Wal-Mart, and they essentially said, look, what we think happened, someone came into the store and grabbed one of the -- there's dozens of phones around the store, picked it up, got on the PA system.
And it's important to point out, though, that Wal-Mart really thinks this is a prankster.
SANCHEZ: But we can't let them get away with that. I'm sorry. You may think it's a prankster at Wal-Mart, or whatever you are, but first of all, this is a racist prank that bothered a lot of people. I was listening to urban radio on the way in here in Atlanta. Some people were laughing at it because it's obviously --
BALDWIN: Like she said, who says that in 2010?
SANCHEZ: But here's the question I have for you. What if they don't secure their microphone enough so you get some guy picking up the phone and saying, hey, everybody, there's a fire in Wal-Mart. You have to leave and you have three seconds. People could get killed. People could get trampled.
BALDWIN: Absolutely. And when I talked to Wal-Mart today, I said "What are you going to be doing with your PA systems?" They said at this particular store, and this isn't necessarily anywhere in the country, there's a lot of Wal-Marts, they said they're going to be looking into possibly securing them, changing maybe how you dial in to get into the PA system. I wouldn't know how to do it, but a lot of people maybe would.
And I know you're saying we want to hold Wal-Mart's feet to the fire. But they are absolutely saying they are appalled and whoever did this is wrong and acted in an inappropriate matter. Here's essentially part of the statement they released. That's the latest from Wal-Mart. A lot of people upset, and understandably so.
SANCHEZ: We understand it's the yahoo's fault that did it most of all. But they have to put in a system that protects them from yahoos being able to do that.
BALDWIN: Yes, I know.
SANCHEZ: There's a lot of yahoos out there.
Take a look at this. We got a lot more coming your way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here is what is making the list today.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) OHIO: I've decided to cast a vote in favor of the legislation.
SANCHEZ: Dennis Kucinich also joins the list, live, to tell us why he really flipped.
PAULSON: I don't want to leave. I want to stay here because I enjoy it so much.
SANCHEZ: He wouldn't leave. So they built an earthen dam around his house while the floodwaters continue to rise.
And an infamous polygamist has the book thrown at him for sexual assault of a child bride.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting edge news right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
