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Campbell Brown
Christian Militia Members Arrested; Tea Party Still Influential?
Aired March 29, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. Campbell is off tonight. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We have got an interview with a man who knew members of this group accused of wanting to kill police in the name of Jesus.
But, first, the "Mash-Up."
The death toll stands at 38, after twin suicide bombings on Moscow's subway this morning. Explosions tore through two train stations crowded with rush hour commuters after two women blew themselves up. Tonight, investigators say Chechen rebels are responsible for the bloodshed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The attacks were carried out by two women about 40 minutes apart during the morning rush hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first female suicide bomber set off her vest packed with explosives and shrapnel as a train approached the platform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forty minutes later, at another stop, a second woman bomber detonated as the train doors opened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blame has fallen on the militant Muslim insurgents from Chechnya in the rebellious North Caucasus region, where Russia has already fought two devastating wars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Women from that region known as black widows have attacked Russian targets before to avenge the deaths of loved ones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Major developments tonight in the case of homegrown terror. Nine people were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy.
Members of a so-called Christian militia, the Hutaree, on their Web site, they say they are -- and this is quote, by the way -- "preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."
One of them, we understand, is still on the run tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was a hate group, you know, pure and utter hatred for the government as an entity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indictments charged David Brian Stone and eight followers with conspiracy and attempting to use weapons of mass destruction. Videos posted on Hutaree's Web site show heavily armed camouflaged fighters practicing with assault rifles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the indictment, the Hutaree allegedly detailed plans to kill a local law enforcement official and then attack the funeral procession with IEDs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After monitoring the group for months, the FBI moved in over the weekend believing the group planned a practice run next month. The Hutaree Web site says a training mission was planned for April 24.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One can only imagine what kind of sort of Armageddon they thought they were going to create.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The Vatican says the latest allegations of sexual abuse by priests in Ireland and Germany will not interfere with Pope Benedict's duties during Holy Week. The pope celebrated Palm Sunday mass at St. Peter's Square yesterday. Meanwhile, bishops around the world were speaking out in support of Benedict XVI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the weekend and at the Palm Sunday mass, which is of course such a critical moment in the Catholic calendar, a lot of bishops from around the world gained a common voice, if you like, expressing their support for the pope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surrounded by tens of thousands of faithful on Palm Sunday, Pope Benedict made a veiled, but defiant reference to the crisis. Faith, he said, prevents being intimidated by the petty gossip of dominance opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On Sunday, church leaders around the world came to the pope's defense. In New York, Archbishop Timothy Dolan compared Benedict to Jesus. Yet, for some, the pope's response to the scandal falls far short.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Shame! Shame!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Protesters continue to demand the pope's resignation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: President Obama is back in Washington tonight after surprising just about everybody with a secret trip to Afghanistan over the weekend. He flew into Bagram Sunday on Air Force One, landing under the cover of darkness. He visited with troops there and also met with Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The two men are not exactly old friends, with rumors of great tension between their administrations. But both Obama and Karzai know that their individual success depends on the others.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think he is listening, but I think that the progress is too slow. And what we have been trying to emphasize is the fierce urgency of now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The U.S. commander in chief later made his way to Bagram Air Base to talk to his men and women in uniform and tell them their sacrifices are not going unnoticed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Obama has wanted to visit Afghanistan for months now to thank the troops for their sacrifice and to stress the importance of the mission.
OBAMA: The United States of America doesn't quit once it starts on something.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: You don't quit. The American armed services doesn't quit. We keep at it. We persevere. And together with our partners, we will prevail. I am absolutely confident of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: There was something pretty amazing on "60 Minutes" last night featuring my colleague Anderson Cooper. He wanted to outdo me after taking on his dare to go into a canal in a sunken car and survive.
So, he actually did me one better. On "60 Minutes" last night, we saw Anderson swimming with a great white shark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Just remember, if I get eaten, just keep rolling, because the only thing more stupid than being eaten would be to be eaten and not have it videotaped.
It's an odd sensation knowing that you're about to jump into blood-filled shark-infested water. Rutzen goes first. Then I take the plunge. Immediately, a 15-foot great white swims straight toward us. Their size and power is awesome. They don't attack. They want to see what we are and circle us constantly. It's frightening, but thrilling to be so close to a massive predator.
It's unlike anything else. Wow. I'm so happy I'm back up. (LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Would I do that? Absolutely not. But will Anderson get Tased? We will just have to wait and see.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Now the "Punchline" tonight, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon.
If you're looking for love online, you might want to think twice about one new Web site. All right, let's all take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": There's a new dating Web site that lets men pay women to play video games with them on the Internet. It's called Game Crush. But you may know it by its other name, the saddest thing ever.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That's Jimmy Fallon. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Here's what else we go coming your way, more on that militia bust in Michigan that we have been telling you about. We have an exclusive interview with an eyewitness to the raid. He actually knew one of the accused plotters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Now to the war within, people who live in our country arrested for allegedly wanting to kill countless police officers, all in the name of Jesus.
Nine people the government says belong to a radical Christian militia are accused of killing police and start a war with the U.S. government. That's what they look like there. They're charged with planning to murder a Michigan law enforcement officer, in the hopes of killing more of them, more police officers, when they would all show up for his funeral.
The defendants are members of a group that's called the Hutaree. They are identifiable by their tiger-striped camouflage uniforms with a distinct shoulder patch which contains a black cross. That's what it looks like there.
All right, let me read to you now from part of the indictment that was released by the police. Here it goes. "The Hutaree's enemies include state and local law enforcement , who are deemed foot soldiers of the federal government, federal law enforcement agencies and employees, participants in the 'New World Order' and anyone who doesn't share in the Hutaree's beliefs."
The feds say that the group conducted military-style training in eastern Michigan.
Susan Candiotti has been working this story now all day long. And he's joining us now.
Look, how credible are these people, these Hutarees?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you, to hear the investigators tell it, very credible. I talked to the U.S. attorney tonight in Detroit, Barbara McQuade, and she tells me this is a -- yes, a fringe group, but a very dangerous fringe group.
SANCHEZ: So they really believe that these things they're being accused of, they could actually pull off?
CANDIOTTI: Absolutely. They said these people -- they fully believe they intended to kill police officers and could have done it. They weren't just big talkers, according to the government.
SANCHEZ: And not just kill a police officer, but kill a police officer with the intent of having other police officers then congregate around his body at the funeral in the procession or the motorcade, so that then they could kill them.
CANDIOTTI: Exactly. So, it went way beyond just one or two, picking them off. These people are charged with having a deep-seated hatred of the government and they wanted to do whatever they could to take them down.
SANCHEZ: I want to bring somebody in. His name is George Ponce. He says he saw this go down, actually knows one of the guys that's arrested.
Hey, George, are you there?
GEORGE PONCE, MILITIA RAID WITNESS: Yes, I am. How's it going?
SANCHEZ: George, I appreciate you taking time to join us and take us through this.
Did you see the raid?
PONCE: Yes, I did.
SANCHEZ: Well, explain to us what you saw, what you think might be important for our viewers to know about that.
PONCE: What I saw was just a whole bunch of SWAT team members just like surround the whole -- his whole house and everything, black cars pulling up, FBI members, cops and everything and guys in green suits, I guess bomb squad. And they just like ran into the house. And I guess the only guy that was home was Steven (ph), which is the guy who is kind of weird, to me. SANCHEZ: Yes, well, before you tell us about Steven, tell us what you saw them taking out of that house, if anything.
PONCE: I seen boxes, medium-sized and large boxes, at least 30 to -- 20 to 30 guns that were taken out of the house.
SANCHEZ: What kind of guns?
PONCE: Rifles, handguns.
SANCHEZ: You mentioned Steven. Apparently, Steven is one of those folks who has been arrested. And you say that you have had some dealings with him, right?
PONCE: Yes. Well, he came in to our pizza shop and ordered every once in a while.
SANCHEZ: What was he like?
PONCE: Excuse me?
SANCHEZ: What was he like?
PONCE: Weird, really weird.
SANCHEZ: Why weird?
PONCE: Because like he will order something and then he will end up repeating it three, four times. I'm like, OK.
SANCHEZ: Did he ever talk about being a part of this militia? Did he ever tell you he hated the government?
PONCE: No, he never said anything. He never really even talked. The only thing is, he just came in, ordered and left.
SANCHEZ: Did he seem dangerous? Was there anything about him that seemed -- you already mentioned that he's peculiar. But beyond peculiar, was there anything that you thought was particularly dangerous about him?
PONCE: Just their dogs.
SANCHEZ: Dogs?
PONCE: Yes, the three German shepherds that they had.
SANCHEZ: What was dangerous about the three German shepherds?
PONCE: Like, if they were to see anyone close to their owner, they would just run at you and try to get you.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting.
CANDIOTTI: Hey, George, I'm curious. When you saw all this going down, and also just living in that area, were people aware, as some have described to us, that these groups would do some military training, militia kind of training, target shooting, particularly at night? Did you ever see or hear anything about that?
PONCE: No, I didn't. When I worked during the weekends, which we close at 11:30, I never heard no gunshots. I heard nothing, you know, ever, nothing, no gunshots. I heard nothing going on. I don't think the guy even left his house. I never even seen him out of his house.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Did you ever see him in uniform?
PONCE: I only see him with boots on and, you know, a camouflage jacket outside of his house with his dogs.
SANCHEZ: So, he was in camouflage and wearing boots.
PONCE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And how close did he live to you, by the way? Were you guys neighbors?
PONCE: He lives right next door to my pizza -- where I work.
SANCHEZ: Right next door to the pizza shop where you work, OK.
PONCE: Yes, right next door.
SANCHEZ: So, you saw him a lot then?
PONCE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Anything else that I have forgotten to ask you that you think might be important for our viewers to know about Steven or the group in general?
PONCE: I don't think so. It's just, they just scared me. And they were really weird.
SANCHEZ: Well, listen, you're a good guy. I appreciate you taking the time to take us through this, OK?
PONCE: Mm-hmm.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate that, George Ponce, who actually knew some of these folks, and was an interesting interview, was able to take us through what he saw.
What is your take?
CANDIOTTI: Exactly.
Well, not only that, but, you know, militias are not uncommon in Michigan. And they're well known and exist. And the prosecutor was quick to point out, some are very peaceful. Some go out and do training.
SANCHEZ: Right.
CANDIOTTI: They're patriots. They want to make sure they're available to help the National Guard if needed.
SANCHEZ: That's a good point.
CANDIOTTI: So people talk about that these people kept to themselves, they didn't see much, although they seem a bit -- paranoia. But of course these charges go well beyond that.
SANCHEZ: Well, we're going to talk more about this.
And then there is the Jesus tie, which has a lot of people scratching their heads tonight. And we're going to have a couple of experts that we will have that conversation with them.
Coming up, the resurgence of the militia movements. How many more are out there? What could they possibly be plotting? What are their motives?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We want to know more about who these people are. They call themselves the Hutaree. And, tonight, eight of them are in jail. And one of them is still on the loose, accused of strange and twisted plot to try and take over America, take over the government by killing cops in the name of Jesus Christ.
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, is defining the Hutarees as a so-called patriot group, is what they call them, who's -- those are militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose one world government on liberty-loving Americans -- stop quote.
So, what are the other groups? And where are they? And what do they want to bring to -- what is it they want to do to bring down the government? And what is this thing about Jesus?
Joining us now, CNN contributor Tom Fuentes, who is also a former FBI assistant director, and also Brian Levin. He's director of the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University in San Bernardino.
Thank you both, gentlemen, for being with us.
Hey, Brian, let me begin with you. I'm curious about this whole relationship between -- and I have never quite heard it expressed this way as I am in this case, that they want to kill police officers and bring down the U.S. government in the name of Jesus Christ. Can you reconcile those two for us?
BRIAN LEVIN, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF HATE AND EXTREMISM AT CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, SAN BERNARDINO: Yes.
And what's very interesting is, going back 100 years to the formation of the Klan, which started right after the Civil War and the same month that the 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was passed, we have seen paramilitary groups embrace Christian symbols and even contorted views of Christian scripture.
We had groups like the Christian Front before World War II, the Christian Patriot Defense League afterwards, the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Law. But, usually, their targets were federal law enforcement or the IRS.
In fact, the Posse Comitatus actually would recognize the authority of local law enforcement. But from time to time, we have seen these kinds of militants. For instance, Richard Wayne Snell from CSA, who was executed the same day as the Oklahoma City bombing, he killed a black state trooper in Missouri, for instance.
We have also seen other incidents. But usually those were incidents where there was either a warrant being executed or some kind of car stop. So, this is unusual, in the sense that these folks are specifically targeting state and local law enforcement.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes, that's what -- you know, it's almost like the expression that some people use, kiddingly, of course, when say local yokels, the local police officer, the guy who has real ties to his community.
But, in this case, Tom, that's who they're going after. It's perplexing, isn't it?
TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, yes. And I don't think they're doing it in the name of Jesus, no matter what they say. These people don't exactly strike me as religious scholars. At first glance...
SANCHEZ: But they will tell you -- but, hey, Tom, I have interviewed some of these folks and talked to the folks down in Birmingham about them. They will tell you that they are the ones who actually follow the Scripture to the letter, and the rest of us have somehow got some convoluted perception of what the Bible is. That's what they believe.
FUENTES: Yes, exactly. And that's what jihadists say, that they're falling the Koran strictly, and everyone else isn't.
So -- but these guys, you know, in looking at the videos and in seeing and hearing what they were doing and attempting to do, at first blush, they look like wackos in the woods. But when you look at the firepower they had, firing the automatic weapons, the degree of equipment, the amount of firearms, ammunition, explosive material that has been recovered by the FBI in the searches...
SANCHEZ: Yes, they're the real deal.
(CROSSTALK)
FUENTES: They're the real deal.
SANCHEZ: They're the real deal.
FUENTES: And if you look at it in terms of firepower, they had about the same amount of firepower shown in that video as the attackers in Mumbai had that took over an enormous city for three days.
SANCHEZ: Well, here's what I want to know and here's what our viewers want to know. OK. There's one freak group out there. And thank goodness they have been arrested. But there others out like them out there? Are we going to see a resurgence of this kind of militia thing that we saw, for example, in the 1990s?
Any one of you that wants to pick that up.
LEVIN: Yes, I think we have seen a resurgence, a significant resurgence.
My old colleagues at Southern Poverty Law Center have documented a 244 percent increase. But what I would say is, while many of these groups are, in fact, benign, the problem is, we don't know which ones are and which ones aren't.
And when you have people who take a twisted and contorted belief system that is at least a template of Christianity -- it's not Christian people of goodwill here -- and you couple it with this inbred belief system and weaponry, even those who appear to be misguided can be extraordinarily dangerous.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
LEVIN: And that's what I do in my lectures...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: OK. Well, he says the tough part.
And, Tom, last question, if can you close this out in the next 20 seconds or so. He says the tough thing is figuring out who are the bad guys and who are the ones that are not so bad.
FUENTES: Exactly right.
SANCHEZ: From the law enforcement standpoint, talk to us. As an ex-FBI guy, what do you do?
LEVIN: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? FUENTES: When does freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and right to bear arms cross the line and become dangerous criminals who are going to kill people, and, in this case, law enforcement officers at the very beginning?
SANCHEZ: So you say take a hard line on these guys?
FUENTES: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks so much, fellows. Interesting conversation. We're glad you were here. Appreciate it.
FUENTES: You're welcome.
SANCHEZ: Coming up, Tea Parties losing their luster after health care reform passes, or stronger than ever? Joining me for this conversation, the outspoken Congressman from Florida Alan Grayson and conservative Jordan Marks. That's going to be good. And it's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Tonight, the Tea Party is on the move. But after their health care defeat, are they still viable? They kicked off their cross- country road trip with a rally in Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's hometown in Searchlight, Nevada, and brought in some star power this weekend in the form of Sarah Palin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The group has launched a new 20-day, 44-city bus tour to support its grassroots, anti-big-government message.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The change that they're doing now isn't working worth a darn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not listening to the people. They talk down to us. They don't hear what we're saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're taking our liberties and rights away little by little. And with this health care reform bill, what part of no did they not understand?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This country is going the wrong direction. If you don't see it, you're blind.
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: We're sending a message to Washington. It's loud. And it's clear. And in these upcoming elections, we're saying that the big government, big debt, Obama- Pelosi-Reid spending spree is over. You're fired.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now the Tea Party Express makes its way east, final stop, Washington, D.C. They're set to arrive on tax day, April 15.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is covering them as they move across the country tonight.
Ed and the Tea Party are in a bit of a convoy. They're in St. George, Utah.
What do these folks in the Tea Party tell you when you ask them if health care reform passage was a defeat for them and if last week's acts of incivility in Washington may have possibly become a setback for them? What do they say?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're clearly not looking at it that way. They will acknowledge that what happened last week, it's clearly something they didn't want to see, clearly something that they're against.
But everything that we have heard today and we have been hearing over the last few days is turning that essentially into a call to action. And they're using that to hopefully motivate people to get involved. That's what their intentions are here, as they kick off this tour that takes them from Nevada to Washington on April 15.
They will be hitting 42 rallies in 22 states, Rick. So, they're really in the mode of trying to turn this, what they perceive to be a negative, into a positive, in terms of getting people involved and bringing newer people into the political process to get them engaged. That's what they hope to do.
SANCHEZ: Ed Lavandera is going to be there with them every step of the way following that.
Thanks so much, Eddie.
With me now, Florida Democratic Congressman Alan Grayson -- you know him -- and Jordan Marks, executive director of Young Americans for Freedom.
Great to have both of you on.
By the way, Jordan, you spoke at the Tea Party's convention in Nashville back in February, right?
JORDAN MARKS, YOUNG AMERICANS FOR FREEDOM: That's right, Rick. I was one of the speakers leading the youth recruitment efforts at the tea party national convention.
SANCHEZ: Jordan, let me ask you a question. I know people are angry out there. But, you know, we've seen some real ugliness. More than 10 congressmen have received death threats. You know, last week when the tea party was there in Washington, John Lewis was called the "n" word. Elijah Cummings was spat on. I mean, it goes on and on. A lot of people say that the tea party has incited this kind of behavior. What is your response to that?
MARKS: Well, I think it's a shame that people point to the tea party as inciting ignorance. It's not something that we should be pointing out and highlighting and giving these people the credibility and the response that they desire.
SANCHEZ: So you don't think -- so you think those folks who were doing that are completely different from any of the rest of the folks who attend the tea parties, that the people who attend the tea parties are not that way?
MARKS: Well, I would put them in the same category as the same people that call the tea party organizations or call FreedomWorks or call Americans for Prosperity or Young Americans for Freedom spouting the same ignorance. We basically put them to the side. If it's a real threat, we contact the police. But we don't highlight it and we don't promote it. I don't believe every person from every party is represented by ignorance.
SANCHEZ: Congressman, Congressman let me bring you into this. Your take on that? That it is just a few people, a few bad eggs or bad apples?
REP. ALAN GRAYSON (D), FLORIDA: I'm glad to see that somebody on the right can start to show the shame that they should have been expressing now for a long time. There have been all sorts of efforts to insight violence by the right-wing. And that's the way the right- wing operates. That's the way it's operated historically. And I'm glad to see that at least one person here on the air is willing to try to separate himself. But the fact is that it comes from the ideology and not from any one particular person.
SANCHEZ: Well, I guess the question is does it come from Republican congressmen? And let me show you a piece of video, all right? Let's see if we got this video up here.
These are Republican congressmen who are spurring on the tea party movement. There you see some of the congressman in there now. We also have video of them holding up placards outside Congress actually getting them to cheer and one of them making hand signs in front of Nancy Pelosi's face. You guys have seen all of these.
MARKS: I was there.
SANCHEZ: Well this is what a lot of the Democratic congressmen, folks like Alan Grayson, says proves that the Republican Party is not only in line with the tea party movement but is actually created the heated rhetoric that has caused some of those acts of incivility that we have seen. How would you respond to that?
MARKS: Well, I would hate to believe that Chairman Steele, an African-American, would go and be one of the people to incite these, you know, the responses and really the disgusting behavior of a few individuals. I don't think he --
SANCHEZ: Wait a minute. Are you saying that because Chairman Steele is an African-American he's incapable of using heated rhetoric that may cause someone to become or say something racist?
MARKS: Well, I don't think he was calling for people to have racist response.
SANCHEZ: Well, I'm not talking about Chairman Steele. I'm not talking about Chairman Steele.
MARKS: OK.
SANCHEZ: I am talking about the congressmen who were outside. And I don't know, do we have that picture? We don't have that. All right.
GRAYSON: I mean, are you going to judge the entire Democratic Party by a few people that hold up Nazi symbols at their rallies? I don't think -- I think this is a double standard that we're seeing here.
(CROSSTALK)
GRAYSON: That's ridiculous. That's absolutely ridiculous.
MARKS: And to say it's because of the ideology to point to the ideology, this is the actual prejudice that conservatives face on college campuses --
GRAYSON: Oh, how sad.
MARKS: -- in the nation to say automatically anything that you say is going to be considered racist.
SANCHEZ: No, no, we weren't saying that. I wasn't. But let me just ask you --
MARKS: Well, I think Congressman Grayson was.
SANCHEZ: What Democratic congressman has held up a swastika?
GRAYSON: It's never happened. He's lying. Stop lying.
MARKS: I never said the congressman held up a swastika. But what Republican congressman did you see holding swastikas. And wasn't it a Democrat Senator Byrd that was a member of the KKK? Are you going to hold the entire party accountable because of that?
SANCHEZ: Senator -- I mean, Congressman Grayson?
GRAYSON: Well, that's premature. But listen, we have now reached the point of absurdity. OK. The right has fomented a national nervous breakdown. They keep pushing the panic button on their followers over and over and over again, trying to get them stoked on hatred and on fear. And they've succeeded. They've succeed in driving these people to the point where they're threatening my 5- year-old son.
Now why don't you just say you're sorry? That's what you ought to be saying, I'm sorry. Don't try to push it off on the Democrats. Say you're sorry. Apologize to my 5-year-old. MARKS: Tea party should not be accepting responsibility for this. The Republican Party should not be accepting responsibility for this.
GRAYSON: Well, look --
MARKS: The Democratic Party should not be accepting responsibility for this. Individuals need to accept responsibility. When you -- when you --
GRAYSON: You're not accepting responsibility.
MARKS: When you said that the health care bill is similar to a holocaust, they didn't hold the Democratic Party responsible.
GRAYSON: You were in that crowd. You were cheering.
MARKS: You went ahead and apologized for your individual remarks. Am I wrong? Did you apologize for saying that this health care bill is going to cause, if it's not passed it's going to cause a holocaust? And you apologized for it, is that right?
(CROSSTALK)
GRAYSON: You know, listen, people like you -- people like you -- and it's very apt that your name is Marks -- people like you, your dreams turn into other people's nightmares. And it's time you owned up to it.
MARKS: We as conservatives believe we have winning principles and we stick by these principles. Small government.
GRAYSON: Your principles are violence.
MARKS: I don't think anyone and my principles are --
GRAYSON: Anger, hatred and violence.
MARKS: In fact, in the charter of my personal organization, it says if you are a person that does do the so-called acts that happen towards these congressmen, you're kicked out of my organization.
GRAYSON: Oh, yes.
MARKS: You can go look it up online. We are a public organization.
GRAYSON: See if that helps to bring back the dead.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you, Jordan --
MARKS: I don't understand how that has to do with anything with bringing back the dead?
SANCHEZ: What did you mean by that? What did you mean by that, Congressman, about bringing back the dead? GRAYSON: What I meant is that these are death threats including one to my 5-year-old son. Now, if they're actually acted upon, you think expelling someone from your organization of 12 people is somehow going to bring back my son?
MARKS: Well, Congressman, how do you know that these are tea party members? How do you know that these are registered -- not registered Democrats? How do you know they're not registered Democrats? Have you looked up the registration?
GRAYSON: Because it's the same people who demonstrate and chant over and over again no health care, no health care. Think about that. No health care. That's what they're chanting.
MARKS: Oh, I was at the rally. And I cheered and I chanted no health care.
GRAYSON: Yes.
MARKS: True to form. That's what we're calling for.
GRAYSON: Yes, people like you have this --
MARKS: Health care reform, not the health care reform --
GRAYSON: -- tremendous ability to withstand other people's pain and not your own.
SANCHEZ: We'll leave it there.
(CROSSTALK)
MARKS: I differ personally and I don't think I hold any particular party or any group responsible.
GRAYSON: You need to apologize.
MARKS: We leave it at that. Gentlemen, Jordan, thanks so much. Congressman Grayson, we appreciate you coming on and announcing that you'll soon be a senator from the state of California.
MARKS: Well, you know, it's a shame --
GRAYSON: By the way, I have to ask you, Rick, are they paying you time and a half for overtime tonight.
SANCHEZ: Oh, you saw me on 3:00 and 4:00, right?
GRAYSON: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate that. And kudos to you as well. Jordan, good guest. I appreciate the spirited conversation.
MARKS: Thank you very much. And, you know, I just want to say before we leave that these are good people out there, they're hard- working Americans. And that they can't be lumped in by the random death threats that are taking place.
SANCHEZ: Nobody is using --
MARKS: And those people should stop that.
SANCHEZ: We understand what you're saying. And we appreciate your point of view. Congressman, we appreciate you as well. My thanks to both of you.
GRAYSON: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Here's what else we're going to be following for you. President Obama's polls are up. What are they? What's it really mean?
John Fund and Craig Crawford, mano-a-mano. This will be good as well when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. A week and a half ago, the president of the United States couldn't even get members of his own party to vote for him or vote with him, I should say. Now he's passed health care, shaken up the ride, and he's setting his sights now on education and financial reform.
Then yesterday when nobody was looking, he made a secret trip to Afghanistan for what is always a great photo op with, you know, the commander in chief and the troops. They've all done it.
Joining us now, John Fund, "Wall Street Journal" columnist and author of "How the Obama Administration Threatens to Undermine Our Elections." And Craig Crawford joins us as well. He's a columnist with CQPolitics.com. He's also the co-author of "Listen Up, Mr. President."
Craig, the latest CNN/Opinion Research poll has the president back up over 50 percent. Back over the 50 percent mark or hump. To what do you attribute this peak?
CRAIG CRAWFORD, CQPOLITICS.COM: Well, everybody loves a winner, Rick. And even if they don't understand what was won and winning that health care vote showed the president is a can-do president and Democrats as well.
SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you real quick. Do you think, and John I'll ask you, do you think that the Republicans played into the president's victory as folks like David Frum have said that they kind of handed this one to him?
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, depends on whether or not you think the president really wanted the bipartisan bill. If you think he really did, then the Republican strategy was wrong.
I don't think he really wanted a bipartisan bill. Not a single Republican in the Senate of the House voted for this. And there are a lot of moderate liberal Republicans who wanted to vote for a health care bill. So I think the president is going to get a short term bounce from this. But there are two numbers that are a problem for him. The CNN poll that you referred to, only 15 percent of the American people are enthusiastic about this.
SANCHEZ: Good point.
FUND: There's also another number.
SANCHEZ: Isn't that funny? They like -- isn't that funny? They like him but they still don't like the bill.
FUND: No one understands the bill. If they do understand it, they think it's too complicated. The second number, the president's own economic advisers say unemployment is probably going to be about 9.5 percent in November when people vote. That is an ugly number if you're an incumbent.
SANCHEZ: But can the Republicans use the same strategy with financial reform, for example, that they use with health care?
FUND: Probably not.
SANCHEZ: They can't, right?
FUND: I think because the --
SANCHEZ: Because they'll get tied to the big banks.
FUND: The big banks are about as unpopular as big government. And I think you can probably peel off three, five, six or seven Republicans. But if you insist on having a consumer agency that basically dominates all of lending and basically federalizes it, I think the Republicans probably can't stand united against something like that.
SANCHEZ: Craig, let me ask you a question. I'm going to read you what Minority Leader Boehner said recently speaking of this financial reform thing, which I think is going to be the next big, hot topic. He was talking to a bunch of bankers, right? And he told them that -- he told them to stand up for themselves and not be intimidated by, quote, "little punk staffers."
Now, I'm just thinking, and I'm not a political strategist, and you guys know more about this than I do, but I would think that that kind of stuff might play into Obama's hand, right?
CRAWFORD: Well, you know, John said that, you know, the president didn't want bipartisanship. And Republicans in the tone of the debate and the fact they didn't vote for anything are coming across right or wrong to the public as obstructionists. I mean the governor of Louisiana said we're the party of hell no. And as we move forward yes on financial regulation, if they're going to stand with the big banks against the president on this stuff and the Consumer Protection Agency John talked about is something to help consumers who are really abused by credit scammers, even military troops are being targeted for a lot of these high interest, easy credit loans.
FUND: But, Craig, --
CRAWFORD: That's what it's all about. I know your buddies at the "Wall Street Journal" don't like it.
FUND: Craig, it was a Democratic committee that took it out of the House bill. You can't find that consumer agency --
CRAWFORD: It's in the House bill.
FUND: And the Senate bill. It's not in the Senate bill.
CRAWFORD: It's in the House bill.
FUND: Democrats took it out.
CRAWFORD: Well, of course, I mean the Senate is going to be tough on this like they always are in regulating big business.
SANCHEZ: John, do you --
CRAWFORD: But the president is for it.
SANCHEZ: Do you not think there's some validity that there might be a perception out there that Republicans were obstructionists? If by no other reason than by the fact that in the end they lost? If they won, they would have been able to say we weren't obstructionists, we did the right thing.
FUND: I think the president is going to be helped because this energizes his base. You can see his numbers improving by union members and lower income people. I think it allows --
SANCHEZ: But you think it's a short-term bounce?
FUND: Well, we have seen -- "Politico" has a story tonight that the numbers are coming back to earth after only a week. The health care bill is as unpopular as ever and the president's numbers in the Daily Tracking poll and Gallup today have fallen back to the level before it passed. So I think he gets the narrative.
CRAWFORD: A lot of the people are against it because it doesn't go far enough, John, not because they don't like what it is.
FUND: That means they may not vote -- they might not come out to vote. Remember, a midterm election is all about --
CRAWFORD: Oh, I think they'll come out to vote, particularly if he gets banking reform and possibly immigration reform.
SANCHEZ: That's where -- final point,
FUND: Look, if you believe the administration (ph) reform is going to pass by November, I'll contribute a large amount of money to your favorite charity. That's not going to happen. CRAWFORD: I think you Republicans are empowering the Democrats to go for it and get the Hispanic vote out.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's see what happens with that one. We'll have you guys back. I really appreciate it. Thanks, John.
FUND: Sure thing.
SANCHEZ: Good conversation. And, Craig, as usual, good to see you, my friend.
CRAWFORD: So long.
SANCHEZ: All right. You've been seeing the incredible pictures coming out of Moscow from today's suicide bombings of subway stations. I'm going to take you through what actually happened and why the attackers are being called, get this, the black widows.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: In just a couple of minutes, Anderson Cooper is going to be here with a special investigation into allegations against the Church of Scientology. But first, more must-see news happening right now. A guy every bit as good looking as Anderson Cooper, Mike Galanos is joining us now.
What are laughing about, Mike?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: The 20s in the mail. Thank you so much.
SANCHEZ: What have you got, my friend.
GALANOS: Here we go, some good news. Remember the government said taxpayers will actually or could actually make some money from the bank bailouts? It's happening. Here we go.
The Treasury Department today says it's going to start unloading its near one-third stake in Citigroup. That stake is worth about $34 billion. And at today's prices, the sale would net taxpayers a profit of over $8 billion. We'll take it.
Here's a lesson for anyone trying to slip through questionable expenses, especially if you're sending your receipts to the Republican National Committee. A consultant working for the RNC spent almost two grand at a hot, new West Hollywood bondage theme club and got reimbursed for it. A spokesman for RNC Chairman Michael Steele told CNN that Steele considered the expense a misuse of party money and that he was not at the club himself. The RNC says it's giving the money back, every penny, from this consultant.
Finally this, you talking about a meltdown, happened on the ice. It happened this weekend, British Columbia. That's the Abbottsford Heat head coach Jim Playfair, furious about a call from the ref so he breaks one. Then he's going Incredible Hulk. He just didn't turn green. Watch the players. The guys on the left, they don't even care. They just drink the water, give him the stick. Let him go to town. The guys on the right, you see them, they're laughing. They're ducking. The coach fined an undisclosed amount of money. He says he's not apologizing, not proud of it and did not consider it embarrassing.
Rick, there you go.
SANCHEZ: My goodness. That's a strong --
GALANOS: Yes, it is.
SANCHEZ: What was that thing about the Republicans, you said a bondage club?
GALANOS: Yes. Hot, new West Hollywood bondage-themed club.
SANCHEZ: What do you know about those places?
GALANOS: I just read the prompter in a case like that, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much. Boy, did id I ever put you on the spot.
GALANOS: You certainly did.
SANCHEZ: Larry King --
GALANOS: I take the 20 back.
SANCHEZ: Larry King -- that got everybody in the studio rolling around here. Larry King is standing by to bring us the latest on what he has for us tonight.
Larry, what have you got? You're an L.A. guy.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Hockey will do that to you, you know? Earl Weaver on ice.
SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness. Exactly.
KING: Just when you thought that Sarah Palin was leaving politics to focus on her new TV show, Rick, she shows up to campaign for John McCain asking some of the tea party critics who were laying on to him to vote for him. And we'll see what she was up to this past weekend.
And just how much influence, how much influence does she have with the tea party crowd and how much with conservative Republicans? Lots of other things to talk about. All next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
Now back to you, Rick. And don't get mad.
SANCHEZ: Hey, wait, I got a question for you. Quick. You ready? I'm going to do this cold on real TV. Earl Weaver's first baseman?
KING: Oh, it was --
SANCHEZ: Boog --
KING: Boog Powell.
SANCHEZ: Boog Powell, I knew you'd get it.
KING: You know what Boog Powell once did?
SANCHEZ: What?
KING: Earl told me the story. Got a second?
SANCHEZ: Yes, go ahead.
KING: In batting practice at Angels Stadium, Boog Powell hits a long fly ball. There's a couple -- right, a family. Boog Powell hits the father in the head. The next pitch, hits the ball, hits the mother in the head. Earl Weaver said Boog is out to get the whole family.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Well, you have the best stories. Oh, love you, Larry. Take care, man. Look forward to your show.
KING: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, Anderson Cooper is going to join me in just a little bit. He's going to have a look ahead at the "AC 360" investigation of the Church of Scientology. This is interesting stuff. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Tonight, "AC 360" has an investigation in the startling allegations against the leader of the Church of Scientology. This is an investigation that Anderson Cooper, sitting over here to my right, has spent months working on. Before we do anything else, let's take a quick preview of this. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTY RATHBUN, FMR. SCIENTOLOGY INSPECTOR GENERAL: In Leo (ph) three, there was a beating every day. And if it wasn't him doing it, it was from him inciting others to do it to others.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In front of other people?
RATHBUN: In front of other people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go long, baby. COOPER (voice-over): Marty Rathbun is the highest ranking former member of the Church of Scientology ever to speak out against its leader David Miscavige.
RATHBUN: I was Mr. Fix it for scientology for a number -- well, a couple of decades, frankly. I mean I was -- wherever there was a fire, I was out there to put it out whether it be, you know, counseling a VIP member or whether it be, you know, handling the PR from some suicide of a member or whether it be a lawsuit or whatever.
COOPER: Rathbun joined the church at the age of 19, devoting 27 years to scientology. Before he left five years ago, he was a member of the sea organization, the international management team that runs the church. They sometimes wear naval style uniforms. They're given room and board and earn just $50 a week. Rathbun became the inspector general, working for and reporting directly to David Miscavige. While Rathbun was there, he says Miscavige routinely assaulted church members.
RATHBUN: He treats his subordinates in all of international management like slaves in a slave camp and literally beats them down.
COOPER (on camera): The idea of the leader of the church physically beating other members of the church seems to be completely against scientology doctrine or what they're supposedly all about.
RATHBUN: You're right. They're absolutely diametrically opposed to the type of violence and beat downs that this guy engages in and has created a culture of at the upper levels of scientology.
COOPER (voice-over): Church officials and their attorneys say Marty Rathbun is a liar.
TOMMY DAVIS, SCIENTOLOGY SPOKESMAN: First of all, the allegations are absolutely not true. There was nothing of the sort as they're describing by Mr. Miscavige.
COOPER (on camera): David Miscavige has never kicked somebody?
DAVIS: Absolutely not.
COOPER: Never punched somebody?
DAVIS: Absolutely not.
COOPER: Never strangled somebody?
DAVIS: Never, never, never, never, absolutely not.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, the church and his own ex-wife who is still a scientologist say that Marty Rathbun is not only a liar but also the attacker who was removed from the church. They say it was Rathbun who is leading the beatings inside the church.
SANCHEZ: This is just the tip of the iceberg. You've done a lot of investigation into this story, right?
COOPER: Yes, we spent months on this. And just today, in fact, some top officials from the Church of Scientology agreed to sit down to an interview without any preconditions for the first time. And so we conducted that interview. We'll have some of that tonight.
SANCHEZ: Tonight at 10:00. You can see that on Anderson's full report on "AC 360" starting at 10:00 tonight.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a couple minutes. But first, the story behind the horrific suicide bombings in Moscow and the two women who carried it out. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. An explosive double terrorist attack today in Moscow. Two women who called themselves the black widows blew themselves up in separate subways.
I want to break this down for you as best as I can. So let me take you through it.
At 7:57 this morning in Russia, half a million Russian commuters at the very moment riding the underground trains. That's when the first blast rocks the Lubyanka subway station. You see it right there. That station is only five blocks from the Kremlin and right under the old KGB building. Not a coincidence, folks.
Officials say a woman carrying up to nine pounds of explosives just blew herself up. Then 40 minutes later at 8:36 a.m., a second woman traveling into another station along the same line, a stop called the Park Kultury station, she blows herself up.
Russian authorities say that they're certain the women are Chechen terrorists from the north Caucuses region of Chechnya which first battled Russia for independence nearly 20 years ago. Many women there who've lost sons or husbands to fighting have become known as the black widows as in vengeance.
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin warned that the terrorists responsible, quote, "will be destroyed." In St. Petersburg, three more subway stations were closed after the bomb threat. Nothing was found.
In this country, New York, Washington, D.C., Atlanta, all beefed up security on their subways. By 5:00 p.m., though, the Moscow subway station, interestingly enough, were reopened.
I'm Rick Sanchez. That's it for us. Thanks so much for being with us.
Here now, my friend Larry King, starts right now.
