Return to Transcripts main page

Campbell Brown

Search for Miners Continues; Nuke-Free World?

Aired April 06, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody.

The governor of West Virginia says he is clinging to a shred of hope tonight, hope that four miners still trapped underground will be pulled out alive. The time is running out, and rescue workers say it could take two days to drill ventilation holes into the mine shaft. We are going to have the very latest on the search for survivors tonight. We will also zero in on the mine itself, more than 100 safety violations this year alone. We're going to get some answers from its outspoken and controversial CEO.

But the real story tonight, of course, with the people of Montcoal, West Virginia, reeling after the worst mining accident in 20 years. And, tonight, they're praying for a miracle. And that's where we're going to start the "Mash-Up."

Even as the search for survivors continues, the families there preparing to bury their dead -- 25 men perished in the mine explosion, the worst of the past quarter-century. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: You talk to the family members, and, yes, there is sadness and, yes, there is anger about one of their loved ones dying.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's really scary. It's really, really scary. My step-dad also does it. And this is just a wakeup call to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators haven't identified the cause of the blast, but initial reports indicate that it may have been caused by methane, a highly combustible, odorless gas and primary byproduct of coal mining.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The company that owns the mine, Massey Energy, insists it is moving as quickly as possible to find the missing men. But family members say that's not true, that the company has been slow to communicate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's my dad, man. I don't know if he's all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have 11 miners that we have been able to identify and tell their families. Of those 11, three miners were in one family. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three members from one family, a husband and his two young nephews, who will never come home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: We are going to have much more on this story tonight. We will be live in West Virginia with the very latest on the rescue effort. And as we said, we're going to hear from the CEO of that mine, who is fending off some pretty withering criticism tonight.

In other news now, though, in Washington, President Obama announces a major shift in U.S. nuclear policy, the move coming two days before he heads to Prague to sign an arms control treaty with Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: So, we are not going to be making any new nuclear weapons. We won't seek to upgrade the ones we have now. We're promising not to use them against non-nuclear nations, as long as they promise to stay that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most controversial part of what's called the nuclear posture review, the pledge to not use nuclear weapons against any country that has signed and is abiding by the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty, even if those countries attack the U.S. with chemical and biological weapons.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": Conservatives don't like the plan because they say it weakens the nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Obama administration insists it won't make America less safe.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: What does this new policy, this new strategy mean for countries with nuclear ambition?

ROBERT GATES, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If there is a message for Iran and North Korea here, it is that, if you're going to play by the rules, if you're going to join the international community, then we will undertake certain obligations to you. But if you're not going to play by the rules, if you're going to be a proliferator, then all options are on the table in terms of how we deal with you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The president is hosting a summit on nuclear weapons in Washington next week with the leaders of 47 nations.

A Catholic priest accused of sex abuse in Minnesota is defending himself tonight. Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul is accused of abusing two teenage girls while working in Minnesota in 2004 and 2005. The priest is now serving in India, where he spoke with CNN's Liz Neisloss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JOSEPH PALANIVEL JEYAPAUL, CATHOLIC CHURCH: They say that I kissed a child.

LIZ NEISLOSS, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS PRODUCER: That's it?

JEYAPAUL: Yes.

NEISLOSS: The accusations now are that this girl says that you threatened the lives of her family members if she didn't come to your office and perform oral sex.

JEYAPAUL: Well, it is a lie. It is totally a lie, because I did not have any contact with them, no contact, no communication.

NEISLOSS: With children at all?

JEYAPAUL: Yes.

NEISLOSS: Why would someone accuse you in this way if there were no truth to this?

JEYAPAUL: I think there may be a motive to get money from the diocese.

NEISLOSS: So, you think this is about money?

JEYAPAUL: Yes.

NEISLOSS: Father Jeyapaul says he only knows about the allegations from what he reads in the media, but he did tell me he is ready to go to the United States and face his accusers.

JEYAPAUL: I'm ready to come and clear my status. I can prove that I'm innocent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The priest says he only does paperwork in his new position in India and that he has no contact with children.

In the political world, a bit of a revelation from John McCain. In an interview with "Newsweek" magazine, the Arizona senator says, he -- quote -- never considered himself a maverick. Hmm. Well, that pretty much flies in the face of everything we have been led to believe since at least 2008.

Here now, a little refresher.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I have been called a maverick.

SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: He has been known as the maverick.

MCCAIN: Sarah's a maverick. I'm a maverick. And you have got a team of mavericks.

PALIN: The team of mavericks.

MCCAIN: When two mavericks join up, we don't agree on everything. But that's a lot of fun.

PALIN: Send the maverick back to the United States Senate.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

MCCAIN: Maverick, I can do.

PALIN: He's a maverick. And that's what our opponents are afraid of most.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know that Senator McCain likes to call himself a maverick.

JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hey, maverick. I'm a maverick. You're a maverick. We're the maverick team, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: No, not a maverick, but McCain tells "Newsweek" he considers himself a person who serves the people of Arizona to the best of his abilities.

And that brings us now to the "Punchline." This is courtesy of Jay Leno. Behold his take on the spectacle of Tiger Woods' return to golf.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": It's being reported, while playing at the Masters, Tiger Woods will be accompanied by the largest security force ever gathered at Augusta. It's the tightest security they have ever had. He was practicing earlier today. Look at the security. Take a look. Take a look here.

(LAUGHTER)

LENO: It's the biggest -- it's just tremendous security, just Tremendous security.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Jay Leno, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."

We're going back to tonight's developing story. That is the race to save four miners trapped among the dead in a West Virginia coal mine. We're going to show you what is next in the rescue effort. And we will look at the mine's owner, under fire for his company's safety record.

In a moment, he speaks to CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is a torturous night for the families in West Virginia coal country. Those not already grieving the loss of 25 miners from yesterday's explosions won't learn until at least tomorrow if someone they know is among the four miners who may be alive inside the Upper Big Branch South mine in Montcoal, West Virginia.

And I want to start tonight with my colleague "AMERICAN MORNING" anchor John Roberts, who is on the scene in Raleigh County.

John, obviously, the wait for these families has just got to be heartbreaking. Give us the latest.

ROBERTS: Yes, I can't imagine. Not only are there the four miners who are unaccounted for, but there are a number of miners whose bodies are still in the mine who have not yet been identified. And, so, therefore, their family members don't know their fate either.

Now, I talked with the CEO of the mine a little while ago. And they're holding out to a thread of hope, Campbell, that maybe these four may still be alive. But he told me, Don Blankenship, that the force of the blast was such that it really would be very difficult for anyone to have survived.

And the families have been warned of that. So, what we see occurring here now and what will happen over the next couple of days may only serve to be confirmation that, in fact, everyone who was under the ground when that blast went off was killed by the sheer force of it.

But, at any rate, what they're doing is they have got three drilling rigs -- or four drilling rigs, actually -- up on the side of the mountain above the area, about 1,200 feet above the area where those miners are believe to be trapped.

They're dropping holes down in there, bore holes, three of which will serve as ventilation shafts, the fourth one of which will serve as a monitoring shaft. They were a couple hours ago about the 200- foot level. They think that they will get the first bore hole through into that open space in the coal seam probably some time between noon and 2:00 tomorrow.

And then there are varying theories on how long it will take for them to get the methane levels down far enough that the rescue crews can get in. It may be as early as some time Thursday. There are other estimates, Campbell, that say it may not be until Friday that those crews can get back into the mine.

But it's assumed that when they do and the air is clear, they will be able to pretty quickly figure out what happened.

BROWN: Wow, John. And you think you said only 200 feet down, which is nothing, given how long they have been working at it. It's amazing how just long it takes, frankly, given all the concerns that come into play to even try to get in there.

ROBERTS: Yes.

I would think, Campbell, probably at this point, they may be down about 300, a little more than 300 feet. The technical difficulties that they have is, they will go through a couple of already mined-out seams. And what could happen is, when the drill bit gets into those open spaces, it can start to wobble like this.

And, if that happens, they may be inaccurate on where the drill touches down. So, they have got to get in there and drop a metal casing around that bit, so that it goes down through. And that takes a little bit of time. So, that will hold up the process a bit as well.

BROWN: All right, John, stand by, if you can, because I know we are going to come back to you in a moment.

You actually caught up today, you mentioned earlier, with the CEO of Massey Energy and talked to him about some of the safety violations that people have been talking about. We are going to address that in just a second.

But I first want to turn to our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is at the hospital in Charleston, West Virginia, where the known two known survivors are being treated.

Sanjay, what are you learning?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that it's one survivor now, Campbell. One of the two patients that were brought here, one did pass away, additionally.

So, this is the largest trauma center in this particular area, which is why it's such an important resource for the mining community, Campbell, about a 15-minute helicopter ride away from these mines.

And this is where patients are brought, again, two patients. One didn't survive. I was just in the emergency room talking to some of the doctors on staff last night. They were brought here. The patients were brought here, and now in the intensive care unit getting care.

It's interesting, Campbell, because there's been a lot of, obviously, history of mining tragedies around here. We know, for example, sometimes, there are burns associated with mining injuries. Sometimes, there are significant exposures, such as to carbon monoxide or methane gas, associated with mining injuries.

Those things probably didn't happen with this surviving patient, because they don't have a burn center here and they're not using the bariatric oxygen, something to clear out the body of volatile gases. So, he's in critical care condition. That's all we really know at this time. The family is not talking about it, waiting to sort of see how he does over the next day, Campbell.

BROWN: And, Sanjay, I know you have also been speaking with a lot of the miners who worked in Upper Big Branch. Just give us a sense of what they have been telling you today.

GUPTA: Well, you know, it's been interesting, because it's been really sort of this double-edged sword. On one hand, obviously, people are very concerned. They're grieving. There's a lot of waiting going on, anticipation, waiting for the number -- the names, rather, of people to come out that have been talked about for some time now, and obviously a lot of concern still about these four miners trapped.

But, Campbell, I don't know if you knew this. It was sort of back to work today, really, as early as early this morning, even late last night, back to work, miners getting right back into the mines and continuing to work.

When they started to describe that to me, it was quite surprising. These, again, are people who don't even know if some of their friends, some of their family members are still -- you know, they're unaccounted for. They don't know the names at least of the people who have not survived. So, I thought that was, emotionally, very difficult.

We spent a lot of time sort of just traveling around this community today, Campbell, spent time at this place where during shift change, a lot of the miners come, show up, get something cold to drink and hang out. And we were talking to them over there. And they didn't want the talk on camera, because they're worried about the long arms of Massey, as they put it to me, but they were back to work, despite everything that is going on.

BROWN: All right, Sanjay Gupta for us tonight -- Sanjay, thanks so much.

We are going to take a quick break. But, when we come back, you will hear from the very powerful and very controversial CEO of that mining company, of Massey. He has a lot to answer for tonight. We're going to hear from him coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In the wake of the West Virginia mining disaster, Don Blankenship, owner of the Massey mining company, is finding himself under some very serious scrutiny tonight. The controversial CEO is a global warming denier who shelled out millions of his own money to defeat a state Supreme Court justice who had ruled against his company.

And Joe Johns has been looking into all of this and is joining me here with more on this.

And this guy, who is one of the biggest players in coal country, what do we knew about him? JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, runs one of the largest coal operations in the whole United States. He's regarded as a very tough guy, first of all.

Blankenship has been able to keep that operation running, despite strong, huge fines, setbacks. The Upper Branch mine, where this accident occurred, has been under careful watch of the feds just about all year, if not more than that, cited with more than 100 safety violations since December, Campbell.

So, he's been in the midst of it, throwing punches and taking punches.

Well, and, to that point, also maneuvering the political landscape in West Virginia. And he's taken a fair amount of heat for it. Explain that.

JOHNS: Absolutely.

Tactics. You know, a lot of coal operators don't like regulations, and he is certainly one of them. He went so far as to participate in a public debate with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. over mining industry practices. He has donated a lot of political money for causes he believes in, which actually created an uproar that ended up going all the way to Washington back in 2004.

Blankenship essentially donated millions of dollars to help get a West Virginia State Supreme Court justice elected. And then that very same state Supreme Court justice ended up as the deciding vote in a multimillion-dollar lawsuit against Blankenship's company that came out in Blankenship's favor.

Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court took a look at that case and said, no way, that's unconstitutional, because the justice who had gotten political help from Blankenship simply should have disqualified himself from the case.

BROWN: All right. And, Joe, just to be clear, though, what -- what he did, not against the law, right?

JOHNS: No, no, not against the law.

He's got a lot of critics who say it was sleazy, but it also shows a lot about coal field politics. One legal activist group I spoke to tonight said it's quite common for companies and industries to invest lots of money to put their candidates on state supreme courts. Those state critics say this is the kind of case that undermines confidence in the judicial system at the state level.

All right, Joe Johns for that part of the story -- Joe, thanks very much.

We want to go back now to John Roberts, because, as I mentioned earlier, he spoke with Don Blankenship just a little while ago.

And John is back now with that interview -- John. ROBERTS: And this is the first time that we have heard from the CEO of Massey Energy Company since that terrible accident yesterday afternoon.

We had had some statements from the company and its P.R. arm, which is headquartered in Washington, but the first time that we actually had somebody from the company came out. And it was the CEO. Did two or three interviews, spent some time talking to us.

Now, you know, when you look at the number of violations that this company has been involved in, it's 638 in the last year and three months. It had seven violations in the month of March alone for ventilation concerns, making sure that it had an appropriate ventilation plan.

And, so, you look at the idea that it had violations for concerns about ventilation, and then somehow, an enormous pocket of explosive gas built up -- whether it was methane gas alone or whether it was methane gas mixed with coal dust, no one is quite clear at this point. But people are putting together pieces of a puzzle and saying, it doesn't all add up.

But I asked the CEO, Don Blankenship, about their record of violations. And here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON BLANKENSHIP, CHAIRMAN, PRESIDENT & CEO, MASSEY ENERGY: Well, I think the reason it was operating is that all the people who are very knowledgeable of mining, whether they be with the federal government, the state government, or Massey, had concluded that the mine was safe to operate.

And these violations and the efforts on the ventilation are efforts to improve it. And I think that everyone involved thought that we had proper ventilation. And, of course, I don't know for 100 percent sure what happened yet. So, I can't speculate on it.

ROBERTS: MSHA kept on coming back at you, saying, you need to fix your ventilation problem. You need to fix your ventilation problem.

It seemed as though someone at least thought there was a problem.

BLANKENSHIP: Well, I don't know that they thought there was a problem that hadn't been corrected.

You know, you don't go back to work or get a new ventilation plan or an altered ventilation plan unless the experts involved agree that the altered ventilation plan will achieve the desired result. So, as far as I'm aware -- and I'm sure it's the case -- everyone had agreed that the ventilation plan was safe and adequate.

ROBERTS: There are so many violations that were filed against this company, 638, I believe, 2009 until now. Why so many violations? BLANKENSHIP: Well, first of all, it's a large coal mine, with five operating sections and lots of people, which causes the number to be higher than you might see on average at a one-section coal mine across the country.

Of course, under -- since the Sago accidents and the Aracoma accidents, there's been a lot of scrutiny, focused effort to make sure the mines are safer. And the result of that has been, not only at Massey, but throughout the industry, more violations in an effort to make a big improvement in the safety.

ROBERTS: But sources who are involved with mine safety regulations say that Massey has attracted more than its fair share of violations over the years.

BLANKENSHIP: Well, I think that, based on what we know, the due diligence we have done on acquisitions the times we have been in and around other mines, that our mines are typically in better shape than others that are in the area or in the country.

And our NFDL rate has been lower 18 of the last 20 years, you know, better 18 of the last 20 years than the industry average. And our creativity on safety is second to none. So, we would take great exception to the fact that someone would claim Massey's mines aren't generally safer than competitor coal mines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTS: And, in fact, one -- one source in the mining industry told me today that Massey was one of the worst operators when it came to the number of violations and the severity of the violations.

But, Campbell, there's coal country politics even in criticism, because this company provides hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs here. It puts a lot of money back into the community. And you will hear those criticisms privately, but, in public, many officials I talked to today were pretty equivocal about just how serious the problems were at Massey.

BROWN: Yes, it's a fair point.

John Roberts for us tonight.

And we should mention, too, of course, tomorrow morning, John will continue his reporting from the scene there for "AMERICAN MORNING" beginning at 6:00 a.m. Eastern time.

John, many thanks to you.

Stay with us. We're going to go back to West Virginia a little bit later for an update on the rescue effort at the mine.

But, coming up next, another major story unfolding today: President Obama unveiling a new policy on nuclear weapons. The critics say it makes the U.S. look weak in the eyes of the world. We're going to debate that when we come back right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Obama is heading overseas this week to sign a major arms control agreement with Russia. But, before he leaves, he is announcing a significant change in America's nuclear weapons policy, vowing to only use nuclear weapons in extreme circumstances.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates says the new policy will help achieve the president's long-term goal of a nuclear-free world.

Here he was earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GATES: If a non-nuclear weapons state is in compliance with the Non-Proliferation Treaty and its obligations, the U.S. pledges not to use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against it. If any state eligible for this assurance were to use chemical or biological weapons against the United States or its allies or partners, it would face the prospect of a devastating conventional military response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I spoke just a little while ago about this new policy with Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution and CNN national security contributor Fran Townsend.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So, Michael, put this into perspective for us. How significant, in your view, is the administration's move today?

MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW IN FOREIGN POLICY STUDIES, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think the overall picture is that we are seeing a few modest steps forward on the broader nuclear policies that have been articulated and also developed with the Russians in the last couple of weeks.

None of them is dramatic. I wouldn't use the word historic. I would say, in each case, really, this is the next logical step in what you might call the Bush 41/Clinton arms control agenda.

You know, the White House is going to be tempted to sell this as a big dramatic step. I actually think part of the strength of these measures taken together is that they are practical and while they do point in a certain pro-arms control direction, they are not jeopardizing our security or not being so dramatic as to raise huge doubts or questions.

BROWN: All right. I'm going to ask you to break this down, though, a little bit for us, Michael, in terms of what we talked about today. Under which circumstances would the U.S. use nuclear weapons under this new policy?

O'HANLON: Well, Campbell, as you know, the arms control community for a long time has wanted the only purpose of nuclear weapons to be deterring nuclear weapons used by an enemy. However, the Obama administration doesn't go quite that far. They keep a couple of exemptions and a couple of caveats with countries like Iran and North Korea that are not in good standing with their nonproliferation obligations. There is no categorical promise that we would withhold any weapon capability including nuclear weapons from a scenario that might involve them.

BROWN: Fran, I'm oversimplifying here, though, with this point, but give me your take on it. Because you've already heard a number of Republican hawks come out and say that the bottom line response to this is we're going to lose our leverage around the world. There will be no reason to fear the U.S. anymore, that ultimately this makes us a lot more vulnerable. What do you think?

FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATL. SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Campbell, let me start with -- I think it is smart to actually explicitly articulate that the primary concern here right now in addition to the Iran and North Korea, which as Michael has said, they don't take the use of nuclear weapons off the table, is the control of nuclear materials and preventing nuclear terrorism. That's good.

I do think that they've made a bit of a mash-up, to use your term, Campbell, of what their policy is and they denied themselves what has been strategic ambiguity that we do leverage. And I think that's what you're hearing. When you hear sort of hawks say that we're losing our leverage, there's something to that. I mean, they say we won't use nuclear weapons against a compliant nonproliferation treaty state, but then they go on to say, well, but if things change, we may change our mind. And it's not clear what the --

BROWN: Wouldn't you -- just let me stop you there for a second. Don't you want to reserve, though, that flexibility given that who can predict the future?

TOWNSEND: That's right. But that's why I wouldn't have cleared up what has been a strategic ambiguity in the policy about when we will and won't. I think what you want to do is to have the flexibility to respond potentially using a whole host of national power depending on what the threat is or what the crisis is you're facing.

BROWN: So, Michael, there's summit 47 I believe is the number of world leaders who are going to come to Washington to focus on this issue next week. How does this sort of set the stage for this? Is this more theatrical, I guess in a way, or do you expect something concrete to really come of it?

O'HANLON: That's a good question, Campbell. I don't know how much this is going to set the stage or will improve the atmosphere a little. But to get to Fran's point, it's a very important point. I think Fran is correct that we are giving up a certain amount of flexibility. But the hope here is that we are thereby depriving other countries who might want nuclear weapons of the excuse that somehow they're being -- they're being asked to forgo something that we ourselves have, that they're being asked to accept a double standard. What President Obama is saying today is, well, if there is a double standard, I'm only willing to apply such a double standard for countries like Iran and North Korea that are blatant violators of their obligations.

BROWN: Fran, you get the last word here. Leading by example, is it going to work?

TOWNSEND: No, and I don't think that there's any reason to believe -- I mean, I think you put yourself at risk to give up the leverage that you have and what are you getting in return? But you're hoping to put sort of moral pressure on people -- look at Iran and North Korea. I mean, what they're saying is we're not going to take the nuclear option off the table but we still don't have a policy, a clear policy.

BROWN: Fran Townsend, Michael O'Hanlon, to both of you, really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

O'HANLON: Thanks, Campbell.

TOWNSEND: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up, we have some new developments in the alleged bullying death of 15-year-old Phoebe Prince. That's right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight, bullying on trial. It's the case we've been telling you about, the suicide of 15-year-old Phoebe Prince allegedly after months of torment by her classmates. Well, today, lawyers for three of the nine teenagers accused of bullying her to death pleaded not guilty in a Massachusetts court. Each faces a variety of felony and lesser charges ranging from statutory rape to criminal harassment. But is prosecuting teens as felons an effective response here?

Po Bronson is the co-author of "NurtureShock." It's a book on the science of child development, and he's joining us right now, along with former prosecutor and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Po, before I get to you, I just want to start with Jeff on this one point a little bit. The teenagers actually weren't in court today. The lawyers entered pleas on their behalf, and that's a little bit unusual, right?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Massachusetts has an unusual law where defendants of this age don't have to attend an arraignment. It's odd because arraignment, the whole purpose of one is to inform the defendants formally of the charges. But the lawyers understandably didn't want to subject their clients to this sort of attention, didn't want to get their pictures in the paper again. So they chose not to attend, which was their right.

BROWN: So we're talking about felony charges right now, but legally I guess it's possible or probable that these could be reduced or we don't know at this stage? TOOBIN: Well, it's very early in the case. And certainly a plea bargain is possible, especially in a situation like this where you don't have a law that fits squarely with the alleged conduct. Massachusetts, unlike many states, doesn't have specifically a bullying law. So they're using laws like harassment. And that does certainly seem to raise the possibility of a plea bargain to lesser charges which would keep these kids out of prison.

BROWN: So, Po, let me go big picture with you a little bit and talk to us about what the science says here, I guess as much as there is about the effects of bullying and the possibility that it can lead as it did in this case to suicidal behavior.

PO BRONSON, CO-AUTHOR, "NURTURESHOCK": Well, big picture, the anti-bullying legislation, I'm sorry to say is not going to have a big effect. Almost all the existing bullying programs have occasionally are effective, usually are not. And 15 percent of the time actually make it worse in schools because kids become afraid to report things to supervisors or authorities because they know it's going to now create really serious consequences and kids are going to really get in trouble. And also kids who are identified in these programs as victims are often now subject to further retaliation and further victimization.

We can't overlook the parenting factors here. We warned about this in "NurtureShock." The paradigm has come true, which is parents think, my kid couldn't be an anti-social schoolyard thug. She's popular, she's well liked, she's revered, she has lots of friends. In fact, it's the forces of popularity and social dominance that turn good girls into the kind of mean girls who do things like this. I'm not saying I know these particular girls. And also it starts at home.

And bullying behavior does start between siblings. There's a lot of social dominance and cruelty and teasing that goes on at homes. And kids bring that kind of relationship template to their relationships at school and begin to tease each other equally and it sort of starts.

BROWN: So, I mean, I got to say what you're saying is going to stun a lot of people because in light of this case, there's all this emphasis now in the legislation on trying to get these anti-bullying programs into schools.

BRONSON: Right.

BROWN: So go back to the root of it, which you're pointing out is parenting. What are parents supposed to do here?

BRONSON: Well, two things. First of all, not all bullying programs don't work. There is a new one, it's only a couple years old out of Finland, and I've just seen a couple weeks ago incredible new data on this program. It's called Kiva, k-i-v-a. And the people there in Massachusetts should be studying this program, implementing it there throughout Massachusetts.

It is a kind of a cradle to grave program. The kids hear about it in first grade and again in fourth grade, and again in seventh grade. So by the time they're in high school, it's not just that they treat the bullies. It's that they treat the onlookers, the bystanders. It tells them you're part of the problem and you are the solution. You need to stop rewarding aggressive behavior with awe and respect. When you see aggressive behavior, you don't have to intervene, just walk away. Stop feeding the social centrality that leads kids to turn to anti-social behavior to achieve popularity. And parents and teachers need to teach our kids that they can achieve that kind of popularity through pro social activities, for doing nice things. Kids respond to that just like grown-ups do.

BROWN: All right. I've got about literally 10 seconds, Jeff. I know there have been calls for the resignation of the superintendent and the principal. Could there possibly be any charges for any of the adults in this case?

TOOBIN: It certainly seems unlikely that there could be criminal charges. Yes, there could be a lawsuit, a civil lawsuit for damages. But failing to do something, failing to protect someone, the criminal law rarely deals with that and I doubt it would apply here even.

BROWN: Jeffrey Toobin and Po Bronson, really appreciate your time. Thank you, guys.

BRONSON: Thank you. Thank you, Campbell.

BROWN: Still ahead, Mary Matalin and Roland Martin here with "M- squared." This is a brand new segment featuring their takes on the most talked about stories of the day. When we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We are doing something new in the show. It's something we're calling "M-Squared," which stands for Matalin and Martin, our powerhouse team of Mary Matalin and Roland Martin. They're going to be here every night with their unique takes on some of the most talked about stories of the day. They are in New Orleans tonight.

Guys, what have you got?

MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Campbell, we're at Giacomo's again, home of the best alligator pie in the world. And while we're enjoying ourselves down here, the president is in another foreign policy hoo-ha.

Today, Robert Gibbs threatened to not visit or the White House would not be visiting with President Hamid Karzai when he come to the United States next week. But last week we just see Israel, big ally. Next week, we're going to diss our Afghan ally?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: We should. I mean, this is a guy who has made idiotic comments. First off, he blasted the West by saying they're meddling in my affairs, then, of course, then apologizes to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Then he comes back and even says, I might join the Taliban as a result. I'm sorry. Americans are dying in that country to save his behind, we're protecting him? And then he ditches the West? Fine, stay the hell home.

MATALIN: This is for domestic politics. He is in a very difficult situation. The reality on the ground is the packs have finally busted up the Taliban in Waziristan.

MARTIN: Right.

MATALIN: We're about to go into Kandahar. Biggest operation yet. He's practicing domestic politics. We are meddling in his affairs including the last election. He's saying that for domestic purposes and we're fighting with him on something we're not --

MARTIN: Mary --

MATALIN: We're not going to pull out of the country. We're not going to enforce any threats, so we don't visit with him?

MARTIN: We're footing the whole bill. We're paying for everything. Without us, he's not even president. He's walking around in those nice cute outfits.

MATALIN: That's called meddling.

MARTIN: No, it's not. It's called positioning you for leadership. And it is disrespectful for Karzai to diss the United States when we are shedding American blood and spending billions of dollars saving his hide.

MATALIN: The reason he feels like he can do that is because we don't act on anything we say we're going to do including the big, very big critical insecurities in the world like threatening Ahmadinejad for the past 14 months. We've acted on none of that.

MARTIN: OK. That's hats on him, fine, stay home. Don't come, stay home.

MATALIN: All right, Hamid.

MARTIN: All right. Now speaking of staying home, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, he is critical of NCAA schools that are not graduating at least 40 percent of their players. Of course, last night, Duke beat Butler for the NCAA championship. Tonight, Connecticut, the women, they try to stay undefeated, won back to back championships against Stanford. Looking forward to that game.

MATALIN: This is not a sports show.

MARTIN: No, no, but I love sports as well. But here's what I agree with. I agree with Secretary Duncan. I've been saying it for years. If you don't graduate players, you should not be in the NCAA tournament. Some people say, oh, know, that's just too much, it's too harsh. But if guys are going to school and they can't finish in six years, the best way to say don't go to the tournament, you just stay at home.

MATALIN: Yes, but irrelevant. Because as you know --

MARTIN: Why?

MATALIN: Because it doesn't -- if you're not catching these kids by that grade, then that's not where the problem is. The problem is and where we're catching it here and where it is working is that these younger grades --

MARTIN: Oh, I agree.

MATALIN: Well, then, we have an education problem, which is bigger than graduating basketball players or football players, but if they have a way, then we should take them at that age. It's too late then to do what we needed to do and take them one kid at a time.

MARTIN: But the schools are making millions of dollars off these players and they're simply nothing but a farm system. And I think if you want -- they talk about student athletes. And these coaches are making millions of dollars, fine. I think you say, you want to focus on the student part of the student athlete, you don't graduate these players, you don't go to the tournament.

I guarantee you that coaches and the university presidents would get the message and you would see a higher graduation rates. And that we were talking about Baylor, California, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Louisville, Maryland, Missouri, New Mexico State, Tennessee, Washington, Arkansas, Pine Bluff, all under 40 percent.

MATALIN: I disagree with you on this thing. That's not the solution. The solution is not to try to catch them earlier and take these kids now at this age and try to do them one at a time.

But speaking of failures in education, I thought the doodling girl was a Stephen Colbert story. My girls doodle on the dogs, they doodle on each other, they doodle on their friends. It wasn't. Listen to this. This is from the doodle girl and his mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORAMA CAMACHO, DAUGHTER ARRESTED FOR DOODLING: They consider this graffiti. I consider this doodling on the desk because we all -- at one point when we all went to school we all did this. And now it's against the law.

ALEXA GONZALEZ, ARRESTED FOR DOODLING ON DESK: When she told me I was going to get arrested, I just burst out crying. Like I couldn't even take like her saying I'm going to get arrested.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: These are folks stuck on stupid. How do you arrest a child for doodling?

MATALIN: The child was never in trouble. Tied her and handcuffed her to a pole, would not let her mother go to the police station. She stayed home for three days throwing up. You know what this is? Zero tolerance. This is --

MARTIN: No, this is dumb.

MATALIN: This is the consequence of one size fits all zero tolerance big government failure. It is. I am making a very philosophical point here. If teachers are not free to make decisions that are not stupid like that, you call in the cops when somebody's doodling? Why? Why do they do that? Not because they're stupid, because their hands are tied by this litigious one size fits all education system.

MARTIN: Well, look, first of all, we obviously understand when you have kids bringing guns or other weapons to school, but this is ridiculous. First of all, if I was one of those cops, I probably would have showed and said, you have to be kidding me? I'm going to handcuff a child for doodling?

MATALIN: I've done spankings for permanent magic markers.

MARTIN: Right. I mean, this is crazy. And to say, well, it was a mistake? I mean, come on. This is where I think some public official should be flogged publicly for this kind of law.

MATALIN: OK, that's a good sporting event. I knew you want your own sports show. Public flogging of teachers then.

MARTIN: There you go. We have many stories.

Campbell, we're absolutely out of time. And look, we're trying to save some of this alligator pie for you. All right.

MATALIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thanks, guys.

"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in a few minutes. Larry, what do you have tonight?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": I like that feature. We're going to go live to West Virginia, Campbell, where they're hoping against hope that there are survivors of Monday's mine explosion that killed 25. Dr. Phil is going to be with us to talk about tragedy and how, in cases like this, it might affect an entire town.

Also, Captain Richard Phillips will reveal details about his capture at the hands of pirates a year ago this week. Remember that story, Campbell? That's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE."

BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in just a few minutes.

When we come back, we're going to check in with the Red Cross who has been helping out the families who are awaiting word on those miners, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We want to quickly check back in on our top story tonight. The West Virginia mining disaster, the deadliest in a quarter century.

And Jim Guidone is a volunteer who's on the scene right now at the American Red Cross. And, Jim, I know you've been working with the community. How are people holding up? I mean, given especially how slow the rescue operations are going?

JIM GUIDONE, RED CROSS VOLUNTEER: Well, I think they're starting to fatigue a bit. Yesterday was filled with a lot of tears. And there are still tears today, but they've been keeping this vigil for over 24 hours now. And fatigue is starting to set in, but hope is not waned. There's still hope.

BROWN: Well, I was going to say, I mean, officials have been saying pretty bluntly here that the odds of finding the missing miners alive are long. Do you believe that these family members are still holding on?

GUIDONE: Well, Campbell, I talked to a young man today whose father is missing. His father has been a miner for 36 years. And this man, his son, has been a miner for five years. And they believe he's one of the four still unaccounted for. So there are still those families that are hoping. And this whole community has come together. Family counseling family but they're all counseling each other and supporting one another.

BROWN: And these stories you're hearing from folks down there are really gut wrenching, too. I understand you talked to a young lady today also who had a family member who had just started in the mine a few days ago.

GUIDONE: Three days ago. Yes. It's -- and so the youngest miner I believe that's missing is 20. And I'm not sure how old the oldest is but again, this fellow's father was 36 years in the mines.

BROWN: Well, Jim, hang in there. Good luck to you. You know, we are certainly thinking about all the people down there and certainly appreciate you being there to help them through this. Many thanks. It's Jim Guidone joining us right now who's a volunteer with the Red Cross.

As we said, "LARRY KING LIVE" starting in just a few minutes. But coming up next, we are going to bring some of the sights of the West Virginia mining disaster of the rescue that has been going on, a closer look. The moments that really tell the story better than any other, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: They're preparing for another long night in Montcoal, West Virginia. Rescue workers out racing against time. Families coping with this unfolding catastrophe. Their few powerful words tell the story. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every mine safety law we have on the books today has been written with the blood of our coal miners.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) working the evening or day. That's all they said. When I told them evening, they told me there had been an explosion. And I said, where? They just right to that mine. They just transferred to that mine a while back. Not long.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know, man. I don't know how to explain it. Like I got hit in the gut right there real hard. Just keep getting hit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In church the other day, he said, the Lord, he thanked the Lord for saving his soul. And he thanked him for watching over him in the mines for over 30 years. And he said if he takes me tomorrow, have a good life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And that's going to do it for us tonight. Thanks for being with us.

"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.