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American Morning
Drilling for Missing Miners: Rescuers Trying to Ventilate Deadly Gas; Health Concerns for Miners
Aired April 07, 2010 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to a special edition of AMERICAN MORNING. It's Wednesday, April 7th. I'm Kiran Chetry in New York.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Roberts in Raleigh County, West Virginia, where it is now day three of this disaster at the Upper Big Branch mining company. There are still a number of people who are unaccounted for. Here's the very latest for you.
The drilling continues. Four bore holes being sunk more than a thousand feet underground trying to clear out the methane gas from that mine where the explosion happened late on Monday afternoon so the rescue workers could get back in. The rescue workers will go down in that mine whenever they can. It may be sometime in the next 48 hours to try to locate the four miners who remain missing.
Twenty-five miners dead so far. Still four unaccounted for. And this morning, more questions about safety violations involving the mine's owner, Massy Energy Company -- 638 violations that company racked up between the beginning of 2009 and now. That's a period of just 15 months. And many people are asking the question, well, if there were so many violations that the company had on the books and were pending before it, why it was even doing business?
And we found out yesterday. We talked to some mining officials that it's a difficult and somewhat convoluted process in trying to bring a mine into compliance, particularly if the mine's owners don't want to cooperate with federal safety authorities. I had the opportunity to speak with the mine's CEO, Don Blankenship, yesterday as well as the mine's safety officials. And here's what we found when we asked the question, why was this mine still operating?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS (voice-over): To hear the CEO of Massey Energy tell it, the hundreds of safety violations filed against the Upper Big Branch Mine were neither excessive in number nor particularly significant.
(on camera): People may be wondering why this mine was even operating?
DON BLANKENSHIP, CEO, MASSEY ENERGY: Well, I think the reason it was operating is that all the people who are very knowledgeable of mining, whether that be with the federal government, the state government or Massey had completed that the mine was safe to operate and these violations and the efforts on the ventilation are efforts to improve it.
ROBERTS (voice-over): But the man in charge of keeping America's coal mines and coal miners safe, Kevin Stricklin, doesn't see much room for argument.
(on camera): Is it your stance, Kevin, that this is a mine that really needed to clean up its act?
KEVIN STRICKLIN, MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION: Well, we think all mines need to clean up their act. The number of violations that were issued here and some of the significance of them, it gave the indication that the mine operator would have been better suited to just comply with the regulations rather than us fining them.
ROBERTS (voice-over): It's an emotional issue in this one industry land. Safety is a huge concern. But Massey mines provide thousands of jobs and pour money into the local community. Ron Wooten is the West Virginia state mining director.
(on camera): Are they a good operator or a bad operator in your estimation?
RON WOOTEN, STATE MINING DIRECTOR: I don't have an opinion on that particular question. I've seen them do good things. I've seen them do things not so good.
ROBERTS: One person told me, a source who chose to remain anonymous told me that you were one of the worst operators in terms of the number of violations and the severity of those violations?
BLANKENSHIP: We would disagree in terms of the condition of our mines. The number of violations that can depend on what area you're operating in, what district, and who the inspectors are and a whole host of issues.
ROBERTS (voice-over): Mine safety sources say they grow frustrated with the deep pockets industry and big money lawyers who challenge violations.
(on camera): Isn't it true that they can take you to court and they could spend a lot of money and they can drag this out and they can get the violation reduced, and they can keep operating tying you up in knots?
WOOTEN: They may be able to do that, but the real cost is when you shut them down. When you shut that mining machine down and they can't run coal. That's the real cost.
ROBERTS (voice-over): But shutting down a mine isn't easy. The feds find it hard to touch even repeat offenders if they correct the violation. It's like an endless series of strikes with few ever called out.
STRICKLIN: The law gives them the opportunity to correct their violations and go back to work. There's nothing in the law that tells me that I can keep them from mining.
ROBERTS: Until there's a big accident. Then everyone pays.
WOOTEN: I get concerned and upset any time we have a violation. And when something like this happens, this devastates our state.
ROBERTS (on camera): I sense a certain frustration.
WOOTEN: Perhaps. I'm frustrated any time these kinds of things happen. And I'm frustrated when I know that we're trying and it still happened. That's annoying, most annoying, that this really tears at you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: You can see that the pain of an event like this. Twenty-five people dead, potentially 29 people dead, the worst mining accident in this country at the moment in 25 years and maybe beyond that, does affect people very deeply.
But as bad an operator as sources told me Massey corporation is, it runs probably about in the middle between best and worst. Officials told me that there are other mines that rack up more than a thousand violations in the course of a year. And what's most tragic about all of this, too, is that you come to these mining communities and they are just a bunch good God-faring folk who just want to do a good day's work and they just want to thank that somebody is looking out for them.
You know, the people who are involved in this industry face so many challenges, the miners who go down every day working the coal, sometimes working in seams that are only 36 inches high and the health effects of that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here with us this morning. Doc, it's great to see you.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
ROBERTS: I know you've been talking to a lot of miners who live in this area and, you know, you just go town to town to town here and you talk to all the good folks and they do face so many challenges particularly on the health front.
GUPTA: You know, no one's immune from it as well. You know, the environmental impact from a mine like this and all the types of activities really do affect everyone in the community. People talk a lot about black lung. It's almost as arcane term. The medical term is pneumoconiosis, which no one can pronounce. But the point is it is a significant lung disease. And you know, I visited this one family yesterday, John, and they really have a cemetery plot in the back of their yard where they bury family members.
ROBERTS: Generations of miners?
GUPTA: Generations of miners. They're going back and I was talking to the woman who owns the home now and she said just look around. Most of these people die from some sort of coal mining related incident. A lot of them from black lung.
In fact, if you look at the numbers, go to the CDC and look at what the impact is, 64 percent more likely to have some sort of chronic lung disease. Seventy percent more likely to have kidney disease. Heart disease is more common here. And that is a lot just from the air, just not even inside the mine but just outside the mine as well. It's significant.
ROBERTS: You know where we are now, we're just outside of the Marsh Fork Elementary School. And what you can see behind us is a coal processing facility. This is another mine that is owned by the Massey Energy Corporation. And if you walk around inside that school and you run your finger along the inside windowsill --
GUPTA: Yes.
ROBERTS: -- you pick up coal dust. I mean, it just -- it seeps into everything. It's just is a constant presence in the air.
GUPTA: There's no question. And I don't think people can see this. But there's a body of water, a river here behind us as well. And you know, they come out and they test the water. They test it for heavy metals. They're testing it for drinkability, usability, potability, as they call it. You can't drink the stuff. It's simply too contaminated here, and there are very little procedures in place to try and make that water cleaner.
As far as the air goes, I mean, you can literally draw a bull's- eye in terms of, you know, how much heavy metal you have as you move further and further away from the mines. And I think you'd be surprised. I certainly was as to how far that extends out. There's 14 counties in this area that are really dramatically affected by this.
You know, John, I did a similar sort of story on mining in Peru not that long ago.
ROBERTS: I remember that.
GUPTA: And I thought, you know, I thought that Peru would be so different from the United States in terms of some of these environmental concerns. And the truth is it is better here than Peru, but not than much in terms of lead and in terms of selenium, in terms of some of these heavy metals.
ROBERTS: There was a constant battle in coal mining country of Pennsylvania, West Virginia, between the coal mining operators and the environmentalists who they don't like the fact that they're sharing the tops off of mountains in many cases to do that open mountain top mining. They don't like the pollutants, the run off that are going into the river. Is there any way for the two sides to come together? Because it really does come down to an issue of (INAUDIBLE).
GUPTA: And you brought this up yesterday. And I think the battle that I was surprised by was the battle between the workers at these coal mines and the environmentalists. Not just the leadership of the coal mines, but you know, I was walking around with some people today who really are environmental activists in this community. And they walk in the places where coal miners hang out and they are not liked in these places because they run the real risk of coal miners losing their jobs or big changes happening, or salaries going down because it cost money to do some of the things that we're talking about. Coal miners don't necessarily like that. At least some of the ones that we talked to yesterday.
ROBERTS: It is its convoluted politics of coal. You know, the miners fear for their safety. And when an incident like this happens, the families are angry at the coal company but at the same time they realize that for the Appalachian region they make a pretty good salary here.
GUPTA: That's right.
ROBERTS: The companies put a lot of money to the community. Coal companies spending $1 million to move this school.
GUPTA: That's right.
ROBERTS: And build a new one. And so it's the tradeoff. They want to keep the industry healthy but at the same time there all these concerns.
GUPTA: There's no question. And that's exactly what we're going to be doing today is digging into that part of it, John. Really looking at some of the environmental concerns overall. Obviously, a lot of people focused on this place over the last couple of days. But some of this has been, you know, very longstanding.
ROBERTS: Right. Sanjay Gupta, good to see you this morning.
GUPTA: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: We'll be back with more here from Raleigh County in West Virginia and the continuing coverage of the mining disaster. But right now, let's take it back to Kiran in New York.
Good morning, Kiran.
CHETRY: Good morning, John and Sanjay, thanks. And also we're just reminding our viewers that we are going to continue our live coverage of the rescue efforts that are taking place in West Virginia. We're also going to be talking to one family that's still waiting to hear if their loved one has survived this massive explosion. There's also a press conference that's scheduled to start in about 20 minutes. And we'll bring you there live when it happens.
Meantime, other stories new this morning. Criticism of Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele is snowballing this morning. A committee member from New Hampshire cut ties with Steele yesterday citing poor leadership and careless spending. A new finance report also came out, finding that the RNC spent nearly $1,000 at a Vermont winery for what it called office supplies.
Meantime, prominent Republican strategist and CNN analyst Alex Castellanos also called on Steele to quit, saying a change in direction would do the party good. Steele, meantime, says he will not step down.
And the domination continues. UConn women winning their 78th straight NCAA championship title last night beating Stanford, 53-47. The team had some powerful cheerleaders. Both Vice President Joe Biden and former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice were in the bleachers cheering them on.
Ten minutes past the hour right now. Time to get a check of this morning's weather headlines. Rob Marciano in the extreme weather center for us this morning.
Seventy-eight years. Wow. That's a dynasty.
ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, that is definitely a dominations. Congratulations to them and congratulations to everybody setting records across the eastern third of the country again yesterday. Tens of them out there. And a lot of them breaking the records by five or six degrees.
Check out the list here. Columbia, South Carolina, tops at 92 degrees. Dallas actually got up to 93. Charlotte, North Carolina, 90. Atlantic City, Jersey, 88. Philly, 87. Cleveland 85. My goodness, it feels like summer, doesn't it? We're not even in the middle of April.
Well, April does bring in the clashes of air masses together. Cold behind this thing. Warm air ahead of it so severe weather is going to be an issue today.
Yesterday, we had some severe weather but no tornadoes, I'm happy to report. There are some thunderstorms right now rolling through Bloomington, Indiana and through Chicago. So if you're trying to Chicago, there'll probably will be some delays this morning.
We'll talk much more a little bit later in the program. Kiran, back up to you.
CHETRY: Yes. We figured all of this weather, all this warmth couldn't come without probably causing some trouble, some clashing there weatherwise.
MARCIANO: Well, on top of that, down here in the southeast, the pollen count is off the charts. And it's basically snowing pollen outside. So that's an issue as well.
CHETRY: Oh, allergy season kicking up early for people that suffer, no doubt. Rob, thanks so much.
MARCIANO: OK.
CHETRY: Still to come on the Most News in the Morning. We're going to be heading back to West Virginia where family members are trying to cope with the mining tragedy. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
It's 12 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: We're back with the Most News in the Morning in our ongoing special coverage of the continuing disaster at the Upper Big Branch Mine which is just a couple of miles north of where we are. And the latest is that they're drilling those four bore holes down into the area where they believe the four missing miners may be, hoping that maybe by about noon today, perhaps at 2:00 or a little bit after, they'll punch through that area for the first time and be able to vent out some of that methane gas that has kept the rescue workers from going in.
And maybe within the next 24 to 48 hours, some of those rescue teams may be able to get back into that mine to find out the whereabouts of those four missing miners.
I want to bring in Jim -- Jim Lucas. He's the pastor of the Fundamental Baptist Church in -- in Bolt, West Virginia, not -- not too far away from here.
And -- and you have a -- a lot of your parishioners are miners. You know a lot of the people who were down in the -- at the Upper Big Branch Mine. Tell me just a little bit about, you know, the folks that you know, where they were during the explosion, and what you know of their families.
JIM LUCAS, PASTOR, FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST CHURCH: Well, a couple of the families, I knew personally. They had attended my church at various occasions. Every man on the man trip that was on its way outside at the time of the explosion, I'm -- I had worked with and knew them individually.
One name in particular that keeps coming up was Vinnie Willingham.
ROBERTS: Yes. We met his family yesterday morning.
LUCAS: And, sad to say, he was within just weeks of retirement. One man that I really knew close, a couple of my brothers went to school with, was Carl "Peewee" Ackerman (ph), and a -- just a good group of men, good coal miners.
That crew of men have been together, I know, for at least 10 years.
ROBERTS: Wow. And we should just explain, for -- for folks at home who may not be intimately familiar with mining, a man trip is sort of -- it's -- it's like a very low rail car. It's almost like a sled, if you will, that miners almost laid back on that go shooting into the mine and it takes them deep inside that mine --
LUCAS: Right.
ROBERTS: -- sometimes a couple of miles, and one of those man trips was on the way out just a couple of minutes from the surface when the explosion occurred.
That's the man trip that Denny (ph) Willingham was on, and I think five of the seven people who were on board that man trip sadly lost their lives. But two people who were in the hospital were also on that.
Tell me just a -- a bit, if you will, Jim, about -- about the folks here. You know, we should mention that local folk have been coming around with food for -- for us. You know, at a time of tragedy, when we're talking about what's happening to them, they're reaching out to newcomers who are in the community.
LUCAS: Right. This is a close-knit group of people, communitywide, basically statewide. I don't think you could find any better people anywhere in America than here in West Virginia. I know that they all pull together in times like this and bond together.
I have a movie at home about the 101st Airborne (INAUDIBLE). It's called "Band of Brothers" --
ROBERTS: Yes.
LUCAS: -- and that's -- that's what these group of people is like. Coal miners are more like a band of brothers.
ROBERTS: Well, I now that people are leaning heavily on you these days, Jim, for -- for guidance and they're -- they're looking for consolation some sort of counseling on how to get through this. It's important work that you're doing.
Thanks for joining us this morning.
LUCAS: Thank you very much.
ROBERTS: We really appreciate it.
Let's go back to New York now. Here's Kiran.
CHETRY: All right, John. Thanks so much.
And still to come on the Most News in the Morning, a key ruling on the internet and what it may mean to you. Christine Romans is "Minding Your Business" this morning. She has a preview for us.
Hey, Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
Net neutrality. What does net neutrality and what does this mean for you and how you use the internet, how small businesses use the internet and the growth of the internet. We're the new frontier here, a major, major ruling for the service providers against the content providers and the government. I'll have all the details right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. Twenty- two minutes past the hour right now.
We have Christine Romans with us. She's "Minding Your Business" this morning, and we're talking about something called net neutrality, right? And everybody -- and there was a ruling yesterday by an appeals court --
ROMANS: Right.
CHETRY: -- and everybody said this is a big deal. This is a big deal. And then, when asked to explain why --
ROMANS: Because the people --
CHETRY: -- people don't know why.
ROMANS: And it's -- it is incredibly -- and it's incredibly complicated. And, you know, John Kerry said -- John Kerry said this is history making, you know? This really --
This is a new frontier for how we're going to regulate the internet traffic. It's the major court ruling that could affect who is the traffic cop on the internet? It's a battle between the service providers versus the FCC and the content providers.
It's a victory for Comcast and those internet service providers, and a setback for the FCC in this new frontier of internet regulation, the fight over net neutrality.
What is net neutrality? It's the idea that internet providers should treat all web traffic evenly, whether it's sharing movies or whether it's using a software that's opened on a browser.
But a U.S. appeals court yesterday ruled that the FCC cannot tell those internet providers how they can manage traffics on the networks.
Who wins? The Internet service providers who can determine how the customers use their pipes and what they're -- what they're putting through those pipes and how much -- how much bandwidth they're using.
Critics say, though, it means your -- your provider can put you in a slow -- slow lane, if you're, for example, sharing big files or downloading phone over internet software, software that's open through a browser.
The case, it began when the FCC slapped Comcast for limiting their customers' ability to use the -- a service called bit torrent, where they could -- they could -- they could basically -- basically swap really big files that -- that's gobbled up a lot of bandwidth. And the FCC said, no, you can't do that. And, you know, Comcast says that they don't restrict their peer to peer file sharing, that they're -- there was some -- back in 2007 and maybe before there was a few examples where that happened.
But, anyway, it's -- it's -- it will be interesting to see how it plays out, and some are saying that Congress maybe need to get involved in and -- and make rules of laws so that the FCC has this power.
CHETRY: Got you.
And quickly, our Treasury Secretary is in China?
ROMANS: That's right. I've been following the China story, as you know. The Treasury Secretary is actually in India right now. We've just confirmed that he will be going to China for closed door meetings with the vice premiere, and we expect this is about this pressure that the government -- our government is trying to put on China to -- not to manipulate its currency.
We can talk about more of this later, but there's a big currency battle brewing with the Chinese and the Americans, and Timothy Geithner will be going to China tomorrow.
CHETRY: It will be interesting to see what comes out of that if you hear anything.
ROMANS: Yes, you bet (ph).
CHETRY: Thanks, Christine.
Twenty-four minutes past the hour right now. Coming up on the Most News in the Morning, three teens officially charged in the bullying death of a Massachusetts girl, our Alina Cho following the story.
She has a live report from Massachusetts next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning.
Three Massachusetts high school students accused in the bullying death of Phoebe Prince pleading not guilty in a courtroom. Three others will be arraigned tomorrow. In all, as many as nine teenagers could face charges from statutory rape to stalking.
Prosecutors say that their relentless abuse led to 15-year-old Phoebe Prince's suicide.
Alina Cho has been following the story and she joins us now from the courthouse in Northampton, Massachusetts with the latest this morning. How did it go in the courtroom, Alina?
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a very short hearing, Kiran. You know, the three teens arraigned yesterday did not appear in court, as many would have hoped, but their lawyers, as you mentioned, did file not guilty pleas on their behalf.
This case, as you know, has outraged so many people in this community, with many local parents placing the blame squarely on school administrators, saying they ignored the warning signs and allowed an innocent 15-year-old to die on their watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ask that not guilty pleas be entered at this time.
CHO (voice-over): The arraignment of 17-year-old Sean Mulveyhill, 17-year-old Kayla Narey and 18-year-old Austin Renaud, the three teens facing the most serious charges in the Phoebe Prince case, lasted less than five minutes. All three will be booked by the end of the week and released on this condition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That they stay away from the Prince family.
CHO: The case has put a national spotlight on bullying, with many local parents blaming school officials in South Hadley, Massachusetts for not putting a stop to it. In neighboring Chicopee, Massachusetts, school administrators there say when it comes to bullying, they have a zero tolerance policy.
JOSEPH MORRISSETTE, SCHOOL RESOURCE OFFICER, CHICOPEE POLICE: I think we have as many incidents of bullying as other schools have. The difference here is how we deal with them.
CHO: At Chicopee Comprehensive High School, adult monitors in every hallway, high tech surveillance cameras, even an armed police officer.
DEREK MORRISON, PRINCIPAL, CHICOPEE COMPREHENSIVE HIGH SCHOOL: I think teenagers respond well to adults. I think in general they respect the teachers here in the building and they -- they also lean on them when they do need help.
CHO (on camera): They also know they can't get away with it.
MORRISON: That's true. That is true.
CHO (voice-over): And they're not just watching the students, they're getting parents involved too, something that some allege didn't happen in South Hadley.
CHO (on camera): You actually also send a questionnaire out to parents --
MORRISON: Yes.
CHO: -- every single year.
MORRISON: Every year, a bullying survey. Yes.
CHO: Eighty 80 to 90 percent of parents come back and say we're happy with the job you're doing.
MORRISON: Yes.
CHO (voice-over): Chicopee's mayor says times have changed, so their policies have too.
MICHAEL BISSONNETTE, MAYOR, CHICOPEE, MASSACHUSETTS: Back in the day, it used to be kids fighting on the playground, and the noon moms or the lunch moms would get out there and they break it up and that would be the end of it, you know, sort of boys would be boys.
And, somehow, it's gotten worse, that when school lets out, the bullying doesn't let up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHO: Now, the three teens arraigned yesterday will be in court on September 15th.
Meanwhile, Kiran, three other girls charged in this case will be arraigned in juvenile court tomorrow -- Kiran.
CHETRY: Alina Cho following the latest on this story for us. Thanks.
And right now, we're crossing over the half hour. And we want to take you live to the news conference that's taking place in Naoma, West Virginia.
Here is West Virginia governor, Joe Manchin.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
GOV. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Let me just -- we just got a breakdown (ph) -- the one hole was through, they come through about -- they cut through 1,093 feet, about 4:15 is when they went through. Pipes were still on there. They did what they are supposed to do, which is they banged on the pipes for about 15 minutes or so, and they're pulling the pipes back out now from hole number one.
Hole number two, which is right beside number one, is down about 500 feet. Hole number three is down about 100 or so feet. And they'll be starting on hole number four.
Hole number one, they are putting the fans -- as they pull the pipe out, they'll put the fans out and then start monitoring that air to find out what we have. We still think we're in that 10:00 to 2:00 period when we're going to have some real good data to make a decision. And at that, we're hoping that we can get the mine and the air safe enough to get our rescue teams back in sometime this afternoon.
So, the timetables were still the same as we thought they would be. The drilling went better on hole number one than anticipated. They got through quicker.
We did not get any response back from, if you will, the beating on the pipes, signaling. But that doesn't -- you know, as I talked to the families, and they -- most the families stayed all night. We just briefed them and they are resilient as you know, and they're still prayerful and very hopeful that we still have a miracle maybe. But they understand that.
REPORTER: Can you give us the status of the two miners that were transported --
MANCHIN: We're going to check -- I want to make sure I get that this morning. I was asked that question. I'm not sure that we know that we have one in our Charleston hospital and one in Beckley Hospital. We'll get you a complete update.
REPORTER: Do you know there is some information that's circulating about the fact that one of them died?
MANCHIN: We heard that this morning. We have not -- we can't confirm anything because I really don't know.
REPORTER: Governor, can you describe the seismic test, as I understand it is, when there is some banging on the pipe. How does that work?
MANCHIN: Where is Kevin? Hold on, we have -- they've been monitoring all of that.
REPORTER: In the meantime, (INAUDIBLE), give us an update. I know you were with the families all night. Tell us about that.
MANCHIN: The families are still there. And we just went back and briefed again this morning as we've been doing. And these are very, very strong people, strong in their faith and strong in their family. And I knew they'd be vigilant and they were vigilant all night long and they're still waiting and still prayerful and very hopeful and very appreciative.
They want -- they want the press and everybody to know that they appreciate this time that the privacy and I've explained to them. And they said if -- they said they were concerned about some of the names that were coming out and they wanted to keep that as private as possible. This is -- today is going to be a big day. I think, at the end of the day, we'll have more knowledge than what we have right now. And we want to be as helpful as we can to the families and supportive. We appreciate that very much.
Joe, on that, they were asking about the seismics and everything. I told about the one hole that we had down and it went through about 4:15. The second hole they are working on. Holes one and two will be used mostly for -- Kevin, I believe basically for monitoring and testing the air and all that right, venting?
KEVIN STRICKLIN, U.S. MINE SAFETY & HEALTH ADMINISTRATION: Yes, the intent now that hole number one is through is to put a high pressure exhaust fan on it and actually start to begin to pull that bad air out of the mine. Clear the long wall 22 section area out. And once that is complete and we see at the surface of the bore hole number one that with the fan on it, that's it clear air, then that will allow the mine rescue team to advance underground without the possibility of another explosion, that earlier pulled us out of the mine for that reason.
(INAUDIBLE)
REPORTER: -- from point where the 18 miners were found inside, what kind of distance are we looking at?
STRICKLIN: Well, we have about 1,000 feet left to go in the long wall 22 section, and that's the area where we have three men unaccounted for. In addition, we have one on the long wall -- in the long wall area that we're going to have to backtrack and go back in that area as well.
REPORTER: How did you know where the fourth guy is? The three together and one separate. How did you come to that conclusion?
STRICKLIN: Basically, there were eight people that were found near the long wall and we knew there were nine working in the area. Now, there's a chance that the individual could have got away from there, had other duties. But, I mean, just -- it's logical to think that he's somewhere in the area where the other eight were.
REPORTER: How far back in there from the portal is that area in feet or miles?
STRICKLIN: About 8,000 feet from where the men are actually entering the mine up here to where the furthest distance of the furthest point of travel would be.
REPORTER: How close do you think the drill shaft came into where you think the three men are and how close to the refuge chamber?
STRICKLIN: It's about 300 to 400 feet from the refuse chamber. And it should be -- if the men were working in the phase where typically you would be expect people to be working, it should be within 200 feet because we have three entries in there. We're not sure which entry the men were working in. But the bore hole went in one of those three entries and they are separated by -- if we took a ruler went across, there would be 300 feet from one end of where the mining goes on to the other.
REPORTER: If that hole went in 300 or 400 feet from the refuse chamber, could they have heard the banging on the pipes with the seismic test?
STRICKLIN: Well, it's very difficult to hear the banging on the pipes or seismic test on the surface if -- let me -- I'm not sure if you're asking the question, would they hear it underground or would we hear it on the surface.
REPORTER: Underground.
STRICKLIN: Underground, you'd be able to hear the drilling that was going on into the mines if you were in the refuse chamber.
REPORTER: Can you explain the process of sending that pipe down and banging on it? Just explain how that works.
STRICKLIN: OK, there's no pipe that goes down. I mean, the pipe that goes down is basically used for the drilling purposes to ensure that when we start sucking the air of the mine, we're not pulling the air from the voids of the mines that were mine above us. We have to have a total casing that goes down into the mine that we want to ventilate. And that's the intent to taking it the whole way down to 1,093 feet into the coal seam that we're involved in.
As far as the seismic, what it is, is there's holes drilled from the surface down a certain distance and there's microphones stuck into those holes. Now, miners are trained that when they hear shots go on the surface to pound on the mine roof. Now, naturally, if they're in a refuge alternative or a chamber, they won't be pounding on the mine roof but they will be pounding on the top of a refuge chamber.
And as I mentioned yesterday, it's very sketchy, it's very -- it's a very much a long shot as well because of the overburden that we're talking here, 1, 093 feet. That's a large distance for people on the surface to be able to detect someone pounding not on a mine roof in this case, on the roof of a refuse chamber. But it's something that we think is important to at least try to do.
(INAUDIBLE)
REPORTER: -- after the seismic tests where you actually hear pounding, have you ever found anybody alive after that?
STRICKLIN: We have not.
REPORTER: You haven't done seismic --
STRICKLIN: We've done -- we've done seismic tests throughout the country, but we have not rescued anybody with the use of the seismic equipment.
REPORTER: But have you done that in this situation. (INAUDIBLE)
STRICKLIN: This will be -- well, we hooked up the seismic equipment yesterday and they are listening on the surface, but we have not put off the three shots. In other words, if there were miners in the refuge chamber, they would not know that we were doing this until they heard the three shots go off on the surface. But we have been monitoring it all night long to see if there is any detection picked up.
But the he problem is, with all this drilling going on in such a close proximity, that a lot of the noise we're hearing with those microphones naturally are going to be the drilling process that's actually going on. We need a quiet period where nothing is being used, no equipment is being used. Everything shuts down for a short period of time, put the three shots off, and then we'll watch the monitoring equipment, the seismic equipment, to see if anything is detected.
REPORTER: What exactly are they, Kevin? Are they shot -- they are not gunshots, you're banging on the pipe or what?
STRICKLIN: No. It's like basically setting off some dynamite charges on the surface that can be heard through the earth underground.
REPORTER: Kevin, how do you intend to do that today?
STRICKLIN: That's a decision that the state, the company and MHSA will have to make after we determine exactly where we're at this morning.
REPORTER: Kevin, you said yesterday with 90 percent certainty you know where the three trapped miners are. Can you describe that area, how large is it, and is there a refuge chamber close by that area?
STRICKLIN: There is a refuse chamber close by. And I said, we got a 1,000 foot window from where we -- the rescue teams were last at until the face of this area where the extent of the mining could be. And we only have three entries that are 20-foot wide.
So, we're basically looking at an area of 20 feet wide by 1,000 feet long for three separate entries. It could be like the size of the room here, just multiply that by, if it was 20 feet wide, times 1,800 feet, would be the finite area the people would be located in.
REPORTER: After the Sago disaster, there was the Mine Safety Act that mandated certain things to put in place to help in a case like this. It's my understanding that some of these things weren't implemented at that mine. Could you tell us some of the things that were not implemented and how that would have helped this rescue operation?
STRICKLIN: You know, I'm not sure what wasn't implemented. I know they had refuge alternatives underground, additional SCSRs, lifelines and more stronger seal. So, I don't know that I have the opinion that it hasn't been implemented in this mine. If it wasn't, that's something our investigation will determine.
REPORTER: Kevin, based of what the miner rescue team found, can you estimate roughly the distance between where you think these people are and the blast initiation?
STRICKLIN: It would be too early for any of us to decide where that initial blast was at. That's something the investigation will have to tell us.
REPORTER: Governor, are there any developments overnight with the two injured parties --
MANCHIN: We just asked that question. And at this point, I do not know. I've heard the same -- the same concerns that you have. We'll find out. In our next briefing, we'll give you a complete update on that.
REPORTER: OK.
MANCHIN: Let me say also that people have asked questions about thinking that there were still mining continuing in this mine. There is no mining going on. So that has been kind of a false or misnomer. But there's no mining. It's just - - basically, we're still in the recovery. And doing everything we can to recover and find the four rescue effort.
Joe, do you have anything on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I think you've pretty well covered it. We're going to have another meeting with the families here in about less than two hours and update the families. But, thank you.
MANCHIN: The families -- the families --
CHETRY: All right. We're getting -- so, we got an update right now from Ken Stricklin as well as governor of West Virginia, Joe Manchin, and others about the progress that they've made, John. It's interesting they talked about the fact that they were able to at least reach with one of drills all the way down into the mine.
They're going to start either trying to do some ventilation and some air testing and they've made some progress 500 feet with the hole number two and down 100 feet or so with hole number three and they're still saying it will probably be between 10:00 in the morning and 2:00 in the afternoon before they make a decision on whether or not they can send rescue crews back into the mine to look for survivors.
ROBERTS: Yes, as the governor said, it's going to be a very big day. And this is a bit of a change as well because we heard varying theories on how long it was going to take to get that hole drilled and how long it would take to get the air ventilated out. It seems like things are progressing a little more quickly than the CEO of the company told me yesterday -- which is a good thing for the families who have been waiting so long to find out the fate of those four missing miners.
And let's not -- also not forget in a there are a number of miners who are still in the mine who have confirmed -- or confirmed dead who have not yet been identified. So, you know, there's just so much tension and the anxiety, Kiran, as these families are waiting to find some information.
But as the governor was saying, they seem to be very appreciative of the efforts that are underway now to try to reach those people. They're very prayerful. They're sort of banding together and have been there for the last couple of days just really trying to cope with all of this. You can imagine just how difficult it would be.
CHETRY: Yes. And you're holding on to hope and you're sort of listening to any nugget of information. One of the things that they did mention as well is that the tapping and the banging that happens on the drill to try to send a message down there. They wait and listen with those microphones to see if they get any response. And right now, they have not gotten any response from inside the mine. Any of the would-be survivors letting them know that they are there.
But as they also pointed out, at times, they may not be able -- they may not be able to hear from the surface anybody that's doing any banging in one of those rescue chambers. So, they're still holding out hope and we'll, of course, continue to monitor all that.
John, we'll check back in with you after a short break.
Also coming up on the Most News in the Morning, we're going to be taking a look at the strategy, the nuclear weapons strategy, a closer look at some of the changes the Obama administration is making. We're going to be speaking with Matthew Bunn from the Kennedy School of Government to explain what it means -- next.
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CHETRY: Forty-six minutes past the hour . Welcome to the Most News in the Morning.
President Obama is reshaping America's nuclear policies. Under the new guidelines, the U.S. will end the development of new weapons, and for the first time, the United States will also promise not to use existing nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states. Some critics say the changes could weaken the nation's defense.
Joining me now to talk about this is Matthew Bunn. He's an associate professor of public policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. And every year, he publishes a report called "Securing the Bomb." (CLEARS THROAT) Excuse me. The latest edition comes out Monday.
Thanks for being with us this morning, Matthew.
MATTHEW BUNN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Pleasure to be here.
CHETRY: Wanted to ask you about this. They call it the nuclear posture review, and that is sort of laying out what the nuclear plan is, a blueprint for nuclear policy in the coming years. How significant are the changes that were announced by the administration yesterday?
BUNN: I think this is a significant step in the direction toward a somewhat saner nuclear policy. A policy that relies less on nuclear weapons for our security but still maintains a nuclear deterrent.
It's part of a big package of events that's happening this week. We had the roll out of the Posture review yesterday that talks about how we're going to manage our nuclear weapons. Tomorrow, the president will be signing a treaty with the Russians in Prague to reduce both sides' nuclear stockpiles from their huge Cold War levels. And then next week, there's an unprecedented global summit where the president is calling leaders together around the world to talk about securing nuclear materials and keeping them out of terrorists' hands.
CHETRY: So, under what circumstances, if you can help us break this down, would the U.S. use nuclear weapons under the new policy?
BUNN: Well, the U.S. would certainly use nuclear weapons to deter the use of nuclear weapons against us or our allies. And if there was a conventional or chemical or biological attack from a nuclear arms state or from a state not complying with the international nuclear rules, then nuclear weapons could be on the table.
But we're saying to the states that don't have nuclear weapons and have signed up the international nuclear rules and are playing by those, if you do that, we will not threaten to use nuclear weapons against you. I think that's a smart policy because it gives them an additional incentive to play by those nuclear rules in our security interests.
CHETRY: This is certainly not without critics. There's debate going on whether or not it makes us more or less safe. Tom Sullivan and Tom Donnelly, both defense studies analysts, write that the policy makes the circumstances for using nuclear weapons so limited that they say, quote, "their value in America's strategy making becomes practically nil." They go on to say "It's hard not to see the NPR as a further step down the rode to the diminution of American military power."
Are we weakening our strategic leverage in any way?
BUNN: I just think that's nonsense. You know, Colin Powell, when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that he really found it hard to imagine any circumstance in which he would recommend to the president that the use of nuclear weapons was the step that would serve our interest best.
This is a posture review that actually makes relatively modest changes to where we were before. Almost no changes with respect to how we deter other states in a actually have nuclear weapons, which is the fundamental purpose of our nuclear stockpile. It makes clear that we're going to maintain a safe, secure and effective stockpile for as long as there is -- continues to be a need for nuclear weapons at all in the world.
CHETRY: How does the policy affect -- our threats -- how do the changes affect our threats, our perceived threats, by both Iran and North Korea, two nation that I think this president referred to as outliers as opposed to rogue states, but who have clear nuclear ambitions?
BUNN: There's relatively little that the way we shape our nuclear posture can do to affect the thinking in Pyongyang and Tehran, the capitals of those two countries. The Obama administration is putting together a global effort to try to put in place carrots and sticks to convince the country it's in their interest to give up the nuclear ambitions. But that's an extremely hard objective to achieve.
I am concerned that the way this posture is worded, where it calls those countries out as not being subject to this promise that we won't use nuclear weapons, may actually add to the ammunition of hard liners in Pyongyang and Tehran who say we need nuclear weapons because we're on the U.S. target list.
CHETRY: Right. As I understand it, though, they sort of clear the way for a pathway to come back into the fold if they choose to make their changes. Some say that is actually sort of gives them an out, if you will.
Matthew Bunn, Harvard University. Author of "Securing the Bomb." Thanks so much for being with us this morning.
BUNN: Thank you.
CHETRY: Fifty-two minutes past the hour.
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CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. It's 54 minutes past the hour.
We're "Minding Your Business." Spirit Airlines announcing it will charge up to $45 to store your carry-on bags in the overhead bins. The new carry-on fee applies to flights starting in August. If you pay in advance or join the airlines so-called fare club, it will cost you only $30. Purses and briefcases that slip under your seats are still free -- for now.
Plus, if your business does a lot of printing and want to save cash, change the font you're using. A report from the Dutch company printer.com found that by using a smaller font like Century, Gothic, your printer cartridges last longer. The University of Wisconsin in Green Bay is already making the switch, and they say expect to save $5,000 for year.
Well, this morning's top stories are just minutes away, including -- they've gotten through. Crews drilling for missing miners are making some quick progress this morning as they drill those ventilation holes. The governor is still saying a sliver of hope remains. So, will there be a miracle at the other end? We'll go back live to West Virginia, where it is a rescue mission this morning.
At five minutes after, it's always on the back of every miner's mind. Their own safety and the safety of those around them. Dr. Sanjay Gupta looks at the unpredictable dangers of coal mining.
And at 25 minutes after, hooked on pain pills in small-town America. The dangerous, even deadly, consequences that doctors may face when they tell an addict no. Those stories and much more coming up at the top of the hour.
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