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Nancy Grace
Police Tell Haleigh`s Father to Plan Funeral
Aired April 19, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Satsuma, Florida. A 5- year-old girl tucked into bed, five hours later, she`s gone. Daddy comes home from the night shift to find not a trace of little Haleigh. The last person to see her alive, new stepmother Misty Croslin, who goes on to flunk four -- that`s four -- one, two, three, four -- polygraphs and a voice stress test.
Little Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings, and baby-sitter-turned- stepmother Misty Croslin both handcuffed and booked. Charges, drug trafficking. Something or somebody leads search teams, cadaver dogs, scuba divers, helicopters to comb the St. John`s River. Croslin rousted out of a private jail cell yet again, taken in cuffs down to the dock. We have the video, Croslin standing there in handcuffs, motioning out to the water, pointing out a specific spot to police.
As the search for 5-year-old Haleigh goes on, a human ID crime lab vehicle arrives on the scene. Family gathering at the Putnam County jail. Police announcing 5-year-old Haleigh likely dead, evidence pulled from the muddy waters of the St. John`s discovered and dredged, an arrest on homicide imminent.
As the search for little Haleigh`s entire body and the murder weapon goes on, bombshell tonight. Mystery evidence leads police to inform Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings, to commence plans for a funeral for the 5-year-old little girl. After Croslin`s own grandmother appears live with us, describing chilling scenarios of the child`s brutal murder, reports police, in fact, pulled two cinderblocks from the St. John`s and seize yellow rope from Croslin`s home, both implicated in the alleged murder, corroborating Grandma`s story the child was ruthlessly tied to a brick, then thrown into the muddy waters dead or alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, I`m going to call it a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) reports police telling Ronald Cummings and his family to start making funeral arrangements for Haleigh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping to make an arrest in this case. People are finally starting to talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has Haleigh officially been found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: WJXT is reporting that two cinderblocks have been pulled during that massive search in the St. John`s River.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without a body, the case against Haleigh`s killer may have to be built entirely on circumstantial evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Misty, when she first told the story about the night Haleigh went missing, she said the back door was propped open with a cinderblock.
911 OPERATOR: You said your back door was wide open?
MISTY CROSLIN, HALEIGH`S BABY-SITTER: Yes, with a brick. They put the brick on the floor.
FLORA HOLLARS, MISTY`S AND JOE`S GRANDMOTHER: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s so many people talking...
HOLLARS: I don`t even know whether she was dead when she hit the water or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and so few who know what they`re talking about.
HOLLARS: What I was told by Misty was that Tommy and Joe took Haleigh and wrapped a yellow rope around her and carried her to the dock and put -- tied a brick around the bottom of -- or the other end of the rope and throwed her into the river.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Artharris.com reporting investigators have found a piece of yellow rope from inside brother Tommy Croslin`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re trying to bring somebody to justice for this little girl right here and her family. That`s what this is all about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They kind of told them the direction that the investigation was heading at that point.
GRACE: His attorney says they told Cummings and his family to plan to make funeral arrangements.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and you can understand why Ronald would be shocked at that. And he`s hoping that it ends but still hoping that, you know, maybe they`re wrong, maybe something else happened and (INAUDIBLE) is another (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Mystery evidence leads police to inform Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings, to commence plans for a funeral for the 5-year-old little girl. This as reports police pull two cinderblocks from the St. John`s and go on to seize yellow rope from Croslin`s home, both implicated in the alleged murder, corroborating Grandma`s story the little child was ruthlessly tied to the cinderblock, thrown into the muddy waters of the St. John`s River dead or alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has evidence been found that may close the case on who killed Haleigh Cummings?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divers removed two cinderblocks, which are being examined to see if they are connected to the disappearance and the murder of Haleigh Cummings.
HOLLARS: I was told that Misty had knocked her in the head and killed her and that Joe and Tommy got rid of her.
GRACE: Knocked her in the head with what, a cinderblock?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... probably family members who are playing both sides of the fence. They`re getting an attention that they otherwise would not have gotten but for this tragedy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Artharris.com reporting law enforcement has found a yellow rope inside brother Tommy Croslin`s home. Harris`s sources say it could be the possible murder weapon.
RONALD CUMMINGS, HALEIGH`S FATHER: Please, all we want is my child. That`s it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still hoping that if Misty did know something, that she was forced to do, threatened into doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That letter that Misty wrote says to you, "He put me up with a knife, and he said that if he would come back and he`d kill me." Who`s Misty talking about right there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s talking about Joe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outside of law enforcement, no one has facts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ronald Cummings`s attorney says Haleigh`s family has been told to start making funeral arrangements for the 5-year-old little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will follow this case to the end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Art Harris, investigative journalist at Artharris.com. Tell me about the two cinderblocks and the yellow rope.
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Nancy, I can tell you that there are reports of two cinderblocks retrieved from the river, have been sent off to be examined at the crime lab. And my sources telling me police have obtained yellow rope from Tommy Croslin`s home, where he lived with his parents, his wife and three children, his wife giving permission last week to go and get the rope, search the house. They have that, and they are now analyzing that, Nancy.
GRACE: And to you, Marlaina Schiavo. I understand that police have gone and they have informed Ronald Cummings behind bars that he and his family should commence plans for a funeral. Do they have a body? Do they have part of a body? What do they have other than the two cinderblocks and the yellow rope?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, they have evidence that they are analyzing right now as we speak. And we already know that this is now a homicide investigation. And they told the family it`s time, they have enough evidence that they can start making funeral arrangements for little Haleigh. And at this point, all it comes down to is, where will the funeral be?
GRACE: Marlaina, you were cut off in my ear. Explain to me, what do they have again besides the two cinderblocks and the yellow rope?
SCHIAVO: Nancy, police won`t confirm what they do or do not have. All we know is that they have evidence that has turned this into a homicide investigation, formerly a missing person investigation, and they have told the family that they can start making funeral arrangements. And that speaks volumes.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a special guest. This is the attorney for Ronald Cummings, Haleigh`s father. He has met with Ron Cummings behind bars. With us Terry Shoemaker, attorney, joining us out of St. Augustine, Florida.
Terry, what can you -- welcome. And what can you tell us about police meeting with Ronald Cummings, Haleigh`s father, behind bars and telling them, advising them, informing them to start plans for a funeral? I mean, they can`t bury two cinderblocks and some yellow rope.
TERRY SHOEMAKER, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD CUMMINGS: Right. It was last Tuesday they brought the family members into the sheriff`s office, not only Ronald but Ronald`s mother. And also, Crystal Sheffield was brought into the same location. I don`t know if they all met together or not, but they all discussed what turns had taken place in the investigation. They told them that it was now a homicide investigation and no longer a missing persons, and that they would have enough to go forward if they wanted to make funeral arrangements.
GRACE: What do you mean, enough what to go forward with funeral arrangements? Enough what? They`re not going to put a cinderblock in a child -- a little girl`s white coffin. So what do they have, Mr. Shoemaker? Don`t beat around the bush with me!
SHOEMAKER: They are being very tight-lipped on any evidence that they have. They have not informed me of anything they have. They have not specifically informed Ronald of anything they have. They`ve just stated that it`s a homicide investigation and that they need to start looking towards the future in that manner.
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Mr. Shoemaker, I`ve carefully studied your reputation as an attorney, and it is sterling. And I hear you parsing words with me, all right? I hear you say...
SHOEMAKER: Not at all.
GRACE: ... it`s a homicide investigation and they should start planning for a funeral. But earlier, you said police said it is now a homicide investigation and they`ve got enough to have a funeral. Enough what to have a funeral? Do you know whether they have found a portion or any part of this 5-year-old child`s body, Mr. Shoemaker?
SHOEMAKER: I do not know that. They have not relayed any information to me whether or not they`ve found any part of Haleigh or any part of any evidence that would lead them to believe that they have found Haleigh. They`ve just said that it`s now a homicide investigation and that they can move forward with any plans that they might want to make.
GRACE: Now, why did you tell me earlier police said they`ve got enough for a funeral?
SHOEMAKER: Because of the fact that it`s a homicide investigation. It`s been 14 months now since Haleigh went missing, and they believe that it`s probably time for the family to start moving forward and not keeping out hope that they`ll find Haleigh alive.
GRACE: Mr. Shoemaker, I know for a fact, having studied your record, that you well know the difference between a memorial, such as what was held in the case of little Caylee -- her body was never buried, that we know of. That was a memorial service. There`s a difference between a memorial and a funeral. You said funeral. That means the burial of remains. Did you not say funeral?
SHOEMAKER: No. I did say funeral...
GRACE: You did say funeral.
SHOEMAKER: ... yes, Nancy. But no one`s ever said anything about finding any body or any remnants from what they think might be Haleigh.
GRACE: OK. Mr. Shoemaker, what can you tell me about Ronald Cummings, who -- I`m going out on a limb here -- I`ve maintained from the very beginning had no part in his daughter`s disappearance?
SHOEMAKER: Absolutely. He had nothing to do whatsoever...
GRACE: How is he doing with this news? He`s behind bars.
SHOEMAKER: He`s shocked. You know, he`s been holding out hope, thinking that possibly some day -- you know, there`s been so many rumors and so many different leads that Haleigh`s been seen. And he`s hoping that maybe some day, she would come home. But I believe at this point, he`s obviously -- he`s got a hold of the truth and he understands that most likely, Haleigh is not coming home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Has he ever talked to you about the night Haleigh went missing?
HOLLARS: No, ma`am.
GRACE: Have you asked him?
HOLLARS: Not really.
GRACE: Why?
HOLLARS: He just throws his hands up and says "F" it, and then he`ll get up and walk away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Items have been recovered at the search site.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the cinderblocks...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... cinderblocks...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... those cinderblocks...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to discuss the particular items that I`ve taken for analysis.
MISTY CROSLIN: I didn`t do anything with that little girl!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not be mentioning any names at this time.
HOLLARS: I was told by Misty...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Misty...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Misty...
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, HALEIGH MOTHER: She was the last one to see our daughter.
HOLLARS: She says, Nanny, I`m telling you everything I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a huge river.
HOLLARS: ... tied Haleigh up with a yellow rope...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She could have potentially been put in.
HOLLARS: ... and tied a brick or block to the rope...
MISTY CROSLIN: (INAUDIBLE) a brick, like, there`s a brick on the floor.
HOLLARS: ... and dropped her into the St. John`s River.
MISTY CROSLIN: I`ve never seen any bricks at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Haleigh Cummings is most likely deceased.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only one that knows is the people that were there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) not anger.
CUMMINGS: How the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) can you let my daughter get stole (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s disappointment that she didn`t feel as though she could come forward and tell him, you know, what may have happened that night, if she, in fact, knew.
MISTY CROSLIN: I don`t know where she is. I`m not hiding anything. I don`t...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Haleigh looked back and blew us a kiss and she leaned up against the car and then she got in the car and they drove away, and I never seen her again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Art Harris with Artharris.com, investigative journalist. What can you tell me about Tommy Croslin`s van -- what, if anything, was found in the van -- because I remember way back when, when Haleigh went missing, the wife of Tommy Croslin said the van was in a different spot the following morning than it was the night Haleigh went missing.
HARRIS: That`s right, Nancy. The van was borrowed by Chelsea Croslin and Tommy`s brother, Timmy. That`s where Joe was spending the night. The next morning, Chelsea Croslin has told me that she got up, the keys were in a different spot and the van was in a different spot. Joe normally slept in boxer shorts. That night, he got up in the morning with clothes on. This is something that they have used to justify blaming cousin Joe as the culprit.
Taking the van further, Nancy, I can tell you what was not in the van. Tommy has told investigators, my sources tell me, that he had two types of rope in the van, yellow propylene rope and cotton rope. When it came back that night, it was gone.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Danielle in New York. Hi, Danielle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, a while back, Leonard Padilla had offered to get Misty Croslin out of jail if she told him where Haleigh may be found or somehow gives him information of where they can get her. And she never came out with this story until now, and that doesn`t make any sense.
GRACE: It makes absolutely no sense. I`m going to go to that man that promised to bail her out if she would help find little Haleigh, who is now offering to bail out Ronald Cummings if he promises not to go on a vendetta regarding the death of his daughter. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, joining us from Sacramento, California.
You know what, Leonard? I do not believe one thing that Misty Croslin says. Notice that she is blaming Joe and Tommy Croslin -- Tommy -- Joe Overstreet, Tommy Croslin. Tommy Croslin is blaming Joe Overstreet. Joe Overstreet`s saying, I wasn`t there. All three are pointing the finger at each other.
And listen, Padilla, no offense, but if this were the truth that Misty`s telling now, she would have told you this to get out of jail a while back. Something has changed.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No. The truth is still within Misty. She has not told the truth. I do believe that she contacted either Timmy or Tommy or Overstreet, the cousin. And I do believe that the van was driven to her house. I do believe that Tommy, who has told law enforcement that he was there and took them out to where they put the body in the river -- in other words, I have a lot of belief in that, but I believe the body was already -- the child was already deceased.
The only person at this stage of the game that knows what caused the demise of the child, obviously, is Misty. And Misty is being very coy about answering the questions, other than trying to blame Joe Overstreet. Joe Overstreet did not harm that child. He did not kill that child. He probably wasn`t even where the -- there when the body was dumped in the river.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her. That was the first words that I was told.
GRACE: Why was -- why did he kill her in the first version?
HOLLARS: That I don`t have any idea. I don`t even know whether she was dead when she hit the water or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like looking for a needle in a haystack.
MISTY CROSLIN: Dad, there`s nothing!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were willing to go ahead and take the effort and the time to go look for that needle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was with her, the last person with her? She was.
MISTY CROSLIN: She was gone, and the back door was wide open.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the one that holds the key information to finding out what happened to this beautiful little girl.
MISTY CROSLIN: It was about 10:00 o`clock. We were -- she was sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t make any calls until either she saw him pulling in the driveway or until he actually started coming in the house and he confronted her.
CUMMINGS: I just (INAUDIBLE) my 5-year-old daughter is gone!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Baby, don`t cry. This is something you should have said a long time ago.
HOLLARS: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her. That was the first words that I was told.
GRACE: Why was -- why did he kill her in the first version?
HOLLARS: That I don`t have any idea. I don`t even know whether she was dead when she hit the water or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Joining us now, Shawn Sirgo. This is attorney for Joe Overstreet. This is Misty Croslin, the baby sitter- turned-stepmother`s, cousin, who is now living in Tennessee. He left town the night Haleigh goes missing. But oh, isn`t it convenient for both Misty Croslin and brother Tommy Croslin to point the finger at cousin Joe Overstreet?
Mr. Sirgo, thank you for being with us.
SHAWN SIRGO, ATTORNEY FOR JOE OVERSTREET: Good evening.
GRACE: Sir, what can you tell me about Joe Overstreet, your client, leaving town the night Haleigh goes missing?
SIRGO: Joseph went to Florida with a friend. They had a scheduled day they were going to arrive. They had a scheduled day they were going to leave. Joe was a passenger in someone else`s car. He only left because that was the day that they had originally planned to leave. It wasn`t that he was leaving for any other reason.
GRACE: Did they leave late in the night? Didn`t they leave late in the night?
SIRGO: They left late. Joe was out putting flyers out, trying to help the family locate Haleigh, so he was assisting in the initial search in the morning. But when his ride left, he left with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what to believe anymore.
MISTY CROSLIN: (INAUDIBLE) they told me I was taking a polygraph.
(INAUDIBLE) take a polygraph.
CUMMINGS: I don`t know anything about her flunking a polygraph.
GRACE: I mean royally flunked it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just show me. Don`t tell me, show me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Misty has been deceptive. Her stories don`t make sense. The key to this case lies with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police have always said that, you know, first if you divorced Misty, you know, we`ll find something out. You know she`ll crack.
MISTY CROSLIN, FORMER STEPMOM/BABYSITTER OF HALEIGH CUMMINGS: I don`t want a divorce, but hey, that`s what he wants. So whatever. Not going to fight him.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER OF HALEIGH CUMMINGS: She didn`t give two (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about her brother, her mama, her daddy, nobody. When I talked about you, being locked up, she started pouring them. And they were real.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They told him, you know, if Misty got in trouble, if Misty was in jail, we could probably get her to crack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Hey do me a favor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground
(CROSSTALK)
CUMMINGS: They went to the jail and was talking to her, and Jason said, man, I`ve never seen her cry real tears. You know, she always has to jerk a tear out. Jason said no, man, this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) was like pouring.
And you know when it started? And I said when? He said when we started talking about you being locked up and losing Junior.
TERESA NEVES, HALEIGH CUMMINGS` MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: We would love to have a break in this case, and we really would not care who it implicates as long as it brings Haleigh back to us.
M. CROSLIN: When Haleigh`s found I will be let out of jail because that`s the only reason they`re keeping me in here, the only reason they set me up.
FLORA HOLLARS, MISTY CROSLIN AND JOE OVERSTREET`S GRANDMOTHER: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her. That was the first words that I was told.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Why did he kill her in the first version?
HOLLARS: That I don`t have any idea.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Lynn in Kentucky. Hi, Lynn.
LYNN, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi, Nancy. I just want to let you know you`ve made your place in heaven. Also --
GRACE: You know I`m going to tell my twins that when they turn 16 and they`re hating on me.
What`s your question, love?
LYNN: My question is I have a theory.
GRACE: OK.
LYNN: There`s always truth in lies. And they said that the child OD`ed. I believe that. I believe that she did it at home.
My question is did Ronald Cummings talk to Misty prior to when he couldn`t find her? Because I`m wondering if he is involved in this.
GRACE: Are you talking about Ronald Cummings?
LYNN: Yes.
GRACE: What do you mean did he talk to Misty -- remember, everyone was trying call the house, and nobody was picking up?
LYNN: Right.
GRACE: Straight back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer.
Ellie, what can you tell me about that? That evening she went missing, remember everybody, including Ronald Cummings, was trying to reach Misty Croslin, and she refused to answer the phone.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. That`s right, Nancy. And also, Ronald has said in the past that after he dropped Haleigh off for school that day he dropped her back at the house, he said good-bye to her, he said good-bye to Misty.
So he at least talked to her then and then went to work. And it`s not clear if they actually spoke the rest of the night or he was just trying to call her and never was able to.
GRACE: What do you know about it, Art Harris?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, WWW.ARTHARRIS.COM: Nancy, I can tell you my sources say Ronald tried to call Misty nine times that night, she did not pick up the phone.
I can also tell you that at 6:00 p.m. Tommy has said he stopped by the trailer to smoke a joint with Misty. She prepared the kids dinner, then the grandmother dropped some clothes by, that`s their story, and that was it. We don`t know anything after that.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Jenna, Ohio. Hi, Jenna.
JENNA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. I just think you`re amazing.
GRACE: Bless you. What do you think about this case?
JENNA: My question is if the whole family had known the whole time what had happened -- I mean not only that she was dead but intricate details like bricks and yellow ropes -- why are they just coming forward now? Why wait so long to get justice for Haleigh?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, famed attorney out of the San Francisco jurisdiction, John Burris. Also with us, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle.
Anne, it seems to me that they did not give the story, they were not forthcoming before now because it did not benefit them until now.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, that appears to be the case. And they should have come forward with the information. It`s so -- I keep thinking of that line from Benjamin Franklin --
GRACE: Oh, no. Not another quote.
BREMNER: No, I haven`t done it in a long time, Nancy. But you know, three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead. And I look at this time thinking why is this all coming out now? You know what is all this new information?
And frankly, if there`s circumstantial evidence out there, what we`re really hearing is just a lot of talking amongst all of these folks, all within the family.
GRACE: Also with us tonight, the attorney for Ronald Cummings, Haleigh`s father, Terry Shoemaker, from St. Augustine, Florida. Also with us, a very special guest, Shawn Sirgo, attorney for Joe Overstreet, now implicated, not a formal person of interest, not a suspect, only implicated by two jailhouse rats, Misty Croslin and her brother Tommy Croslin.
I want to go to you, Terry Shoemaker. It seems to me that one of the -- people don`t talk because they`re implicated. But now a story has been cooked up by Croslin where the finger`s pointed at everybody else.
TERRY SHOEMAKER, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD CUMMINGS, HALEIGH`S FATHER, JUST MET WITH RON IN JAIL: Well, absolutely. I mean, you know that Misty hasn`t been forthright right from the beginning of this whole case and as soon as she gets in trouble and as soon as she`s looking at -- you know a lengthy period of prison she starts pointing the finger at everybody she can. Except for herself.
GRACE: Shawn Sirgo?
SHAWN SIRGO, ATTORNEY FOR JOE OVERSTREET, MISTY CROSLIN`S COUSIN, JUST QUESTIONED BY HALEIGH INVESTIGATORS: Yes.
GRACE: Weigh in.
SIRGO: Thank you. I don`t speculate on what other people say. My sole responsibility --
GRACE: OK. So you`ve never argued to a jury why someone says a certain thing, why for instance a co-defendant may implicate your client? You`ve never discussed that in front of a jury based on the evidence, you can`t make a deduction?
SIRGO: We`re officers of the court. And I`m not going to weigh in on speculation or guess -- guessing when the police have an ongoing investigation.
I just know that my client, Joseph, is innocent. He had nothing to do with this. And he`s being thrown under the rug by people who may and possibly do have something to hide. I`m here for Joseph. I don`t care what they do.
GRACE: Mr. Sirgo, your client, Joe Overstreet, does he have a juvenile criminal record? And if so, what is it for?
SIRGO: Let me explain the parameters that we have to live within that the average person understand. We are officers of the court we --
GRACE: You already said that.
SIRGO: That`s right. And I`ll say it again. Anything that has to do with a juvenile is protected, whether it`s civil or criminal --
GRACE: So you`re denying he has a record?
SIRGO: I -- ma`am, I`m explaining to you that I cannot tell you one way or the other because by court order and rules we cannot discuss anything to do with a juvenile in a court case.
GRACE: Actually, that`s not the law. Actually, what the law is that the court or the district attorney or the prosecution or the cops, the police, they cannot divulge it. Your client or you could divulge it.
Nothing bars you or your client from divulging his juvenile record. So don`t try to pull that over on me, Mr. Sirgo.
SIRGO: Ma`am, you`re wrong. If I have things under seal, as you know, I would not be able to discuss them. So since you`re not in Tennessee and you don`t know the cases I`ve been involved in, you have no knowledge of why I`m taking the stand I`m taking. You`re speculating.
GRACE: You tried to tell me what the law was, and that`s not the law.
Burris? When a juvenile has a record --
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, clearly --
GRACE: When a juvenile has a juvenile record, isn`t it true that the juvenile can allow his attorney to discuss the record?
BURRIS: Well, the record is sealed. And I don`t --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I know the record is sealed.
BURRIS: I don`t think that a juvenile as a juvenile can unseal or talk about his record --
GRACE: I didn`t ask for it to be unsealed.
BURRIS: Well, OK. I don`t --
GRACE: A juvenile or a defendant can easily discuss --
BURRIS: Anyone can talk about their record. Anybody can talk about their record at any point in time. There`s no rule that says --
GRACE: Exactly. Anne Bremner?
BURRIS: -- you have a record, you can`t talk about it. You simply --
GRACE: Anne Bremner, what about it?
BREMNER: You`re right on, Nancy. You`re absolutely right.
GRACE: OK. Back to the calls. Sherry, Arizona, hi, Sherry.
SHERRY, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
SHERRY: I was wondering, weren`t the calls to the jail or from the jail recorded?
GRACE: They very often are. And not only that, in Florida they often are video recording. That`s how we`ve gotten so much of this evidence. Video-recording the call.
But interesting you should ask that, Sherry in Arizona, because the particular phone calls -- remember grandma comes on with us last week, Miss Hollars, Flora Hollars, and describes these phone calls from various bars, Tommy Croslin, Misty Croslin, but those particular phone calls have not been released.
You`re very astute.
We`re taking your calls live. The family of Haleigh Cummings now advised it`s time to commence planning a funeral.
Very quickly, everyone, on a happy note. Happy 75th anniversary to Fincher`s Barbecue in Macon, Georgia. In business since 1935 by Doug Duventure. He turned down a college scholarship to support his family in the depression. Fincher`s mother teaching him how to barbecue and coming up with the secret recipe for their award-winning barbecue sauce.
Georgia loves Fincher`s so much even NASA astronaut Sonny Carter took it into space. Their specialty, the pig. Family owned, operated, Fincher`s Barbecue, now third generation. Their dream, to go mainstream and sell their secret sauce at grocery stores across the country.
Fincher`s, happy anniversary.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANK CROSLIN, MISTY CROSLIN`S FATHER: They just want to know where she`s at and what happened.
M. CROSLIN: Well, I can`t tell them that. If I could, I would.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jacksonville area affiliates reporting two cinder blocks were among the items pulled from the St. Johns River.
M. CROSLIN: I didn`t even do anything wrong, and they got me in here. I didn`t do nothing wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the brick?
M. CROSLIN: It`s on the back door, on the stairs, we have like a walkway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh. And there was a brick laying there?
M. CROSLIN: Yes. It`s still there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hollars makes it clear Misty wasn`t involved, but she says she knows what happened.
HOLLARS: Tied Haleigh up with a yellow rope and tied a brick or block to the rope and dropped her into the St. Johns River.
SIRGO: It`s hearsay. Just a statement being made by someone.
HOLLARS: I know that statistics say, you know, that chances are that she`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police announced that Haleigh Cummings is likely deceased.
HOLLARS: I`ll just have to continue to believe till they prove to me.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Officially, this is a homicide investigation.
CHELSEA CROSLIN, MISTY CROSLIN`S SISTER-IN-LAW: I don`t believe that Tommy and Misty could do anything to harm a child.
TOMMY CROSLIN, MISTY CROSLIN`S BROTHER: The truth will come out, and you know then they`ll know that they were (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with the wrong people. They weren`t doing their jobs right.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is Misty Croslin still the key to this investigation? Absolutely.
JEFF HARDY, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF: She`s in trouble.
T. CROSLIN: If she don`t know nothing, she can`t tell them nothing. She don`t know where the kid is, how can she tell them where she is?
HOLLARS: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her. That was the first words that I was told.
GRACE: Why did he kill her in the first version?
HOLLARS: That I don`t have any idea. I don`t even know if she was dead when she hit the water or not.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer, Santa Rosa County, Florida.
Sergeant, thank you for being with us.
Sergeant, at this juncture would the cops tell a family to start planning the funeral without a body? For a funeral you`ve got to have some semblance of a body. You`ve got to have some remains for a funeral. They didn`t say memorial. They said funeral.
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FLORIDA: In any cases that we`ve ever worked we have never done that. That statement alone does lead me to believe that they do have at least some portion of a body or something that was found to believe that Haleigh was in that water.
That would be very odd for them to make a statement like that to a family and cruel to make a statement like that to a family if in fact they did not have proof that there was actually a homicide and they need to plan a funeral for a body.
GRACE: Dr. Joshua Perper is with us tonight, chief medical examiner, Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, what do you make of it? Telling the family to plan the baby`s funeral.
DR. PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": I never heard in my quite long career that the police would do such a thing or law enforcement would inform a family to prepare for a burial before a body or parts of the body of the deceased were found.
So if they did not misspoke, then definitely they have to have some -- recovered some part of the body or some bones which they should have verified that it belongs to the deceased. Otherwise, it`s totally improper.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, a van, a mobile unit, came to the banks of the St. Johns River in the past days that was a human identification crime lab vehicle. What does that say to you, Doctor?
PERPER: Well, it doesn`t say much unless they found inside the vehicle something which they can connect to the victim. In other words, there are ways in what`s called DNA amplification that extremely tiny amount of tissue can be checked for DNA from residue left.
But there`s no such information. So unless the vehicle can be linked in some fashion to evidence to the lost -- the missing child, then there`s no evidence there to prove anything.
GRACE: Well, in my mind they have a human ID crime lab mobile vehicle come to the scene. They tell Ronald Cummings commence planning a funeral, not a memorial. I don`t know what they found. But that says to me that they have found part of Haleigh`s remains.
To Dr. Janet Taylor, not only a psychiatrist but medical doctor as well.
Dr. Taylor, this would be playing so loose and fast with Ronald Cummings if they have not found Haleigh`s body or a portion thereof.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, it certainly sounds like they have something. They`re getting him ready for closure, getting the family ready for closure, but also putting pressure on anybody who knows something to say look, we have evidence, you`d better spill the beans.
GRACE: Back to Art Harris, investigative journalist.
Art, what do you think they`ve got at this point, and what are your sources telling you?
HARRIS: Nancy, I can tell you that they have been dredging that river through the silt, through the mud, with that giant tub we`ve seen, the white and blue tub, and they`ve been transporting that and having it analyzed.
They`ve been looking for a piece of a skeleton -- skeletal remains. They have been told that deer carcasses were dumped in the river by Joe and Tommy, and they have actually found deer bones in another location where they used to go. And they found deer bones here.
I have not confirmed that they have found any skeletal remains of Haleigh.
GRACE: To Terry Shoemaker, attorney for Ronald Cummings. Shoemaker joining us out of St. Augustine, Florida.
Mr. Shoemaker, let`s just take a look at this scenario. You have Misty Croslin down there on the docks pointing with her handcuffs out to a spot in the water. Now how would she know anything if she were not there when the body was dumped?
Not only that, conveniently after all this time she suddenly has an epiphany. You know, like on the road to Damascus, suddenly a light strikes her and she has a story to tell cops which doesn`t implicate her. Why?
SHOEMAKER: I wish I could answer that, Nancy. I obviously haven`t had any conversations with Misty or Mr. Fields regarding anything that she`s done. So, you know, I can only think that maybe she -- it`s time to come clean or she`s thinking of some other things.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: First thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her. That was the first words that I was told.
GRACE: Why did he kill her in the first version?
HOLLARS: That I don`t have any idea. I don`t even know whether she was dead when she hit the water or not.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, who lead the cops to the river once and for all?
JOSTAD: Well, Tommy Croslin`s lawyer is denying these reports that he made any sort of confession or spilled his guts to his grandmother. He did release the timeline of what he says happened. He say Tommy got those results from his polygraph. They discussed them. Then the next night Tommy`s wife --
GRACE: You mean the polygraph he flunked?
JOSTAD: Well, yes. He`s reportedly flunked, although the attorney didn`t address that in his press release. But he said that Tommy said then he wanted to meet. A couple of days later they met, they talked, they brought in law enforcement. After a two-hour interview, he led them all to the river.
GRACE: And then, of course, that`s followed by Misty Croslin down at the river, the only ones we haven`t seen there is Joe Overstreet. He`s in Tennessee, not under arrest, and Ronald Cummings.
We`re taking your calls. Katie in Florida, hi, Katie.
KATIE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. It is a pleasure to speak with you. I --
GRACE: Likewise.
KATIE: -- and I love your twins. They`re getting so big.
GRACE: 2 1/2.
KATIE: I know it. But --
GRACE: What`s your question, love?
KATIE: My question is, if Haleigh Cummings is pulled from the river - - my question is, if the examiners will be able to decide whether or not she actually sustained a blow to the head as the grandmother mentioned at the last show?
GRACE: Only if they have dredged up her skull and then only if it made such an impact that it cracked or dented the skull.
Final word, Art Harris?
HARRIS: Nancy, I can tell you that we are getting close to a resolution I`m told with all the bits and pieces coming together. Law enforcement says stay tuned.
GRACE: John Burris, very quickly. everyone is starting to rat on each other. When will it finally end? In an indictment?
BURRIS: Certainly there`s going to be an arrest real soon. I mean I`m very troubled by these two people going to the lake -- going to the river. Obviously they went to the river, there must have been something they know about it. So one or both of them are going to get charged I would think very soon.
GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: Absolutely agree. Anyone that excuses himself accuses himself. Remember that you rap -- sorry, pointing one finger way you got three pointing back at yourself, as you always say, Nancy, so there`s going to be indictments.
GRACE: Thank you, attorneys.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant James Collins, Jr., 35, Rochester Hills, Michigan, killed Iraq. A Lake Superior State grad, also served Marines. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Combat Action badge, Humanitarian Service medal, Armed Forces Reserve medal.
A unit mechanic, took pride in his work. Loved the Red Wings, hunting, photography. Leaves behind grieving parents Jim and Marilyn, sister Jo Anna, window Amy, son Dolfin (ph).
James Collins, Jr., American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Tonight, God bless little Haleigh.
Everyone, we`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
