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Campbell Brown
President Obama Pushes Financial Reform; Arizona's Immigration Battle
Aired April 22, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everybody.
President Obama traveling into the belly of the beast today to Lower Manhattan to preach his gospel of financial reform directly to Wall Street CEOs. Some were surprised to even see embattled Goldman Sachs chief Lloyd Blankfein there. These are, of course, the very same CEOs he called fat cats just a few months ago.
The president toning it down some today, but what are the odds of actually getting something done here? We are going to talk to two of the senators who wrote the bill.
And, in Arizona, a war of words tonight over the immigration law that would require police to question anybody they even suspect is in this country illegally. The governor has until Saturday to sign the bill. But emotions are running so high , her off ice has already had to install an extra phone line to answer all the calls.
We went to Arizona to find out what is really going on there.
And also ahead, a very controversial program that has some drug addicts getting sterilized for cash. Supporters say it protects children from drugs. Critics call it Nazi-style social engineering. You're going to hear from both sides tonight.
But we begin as always with our cheat sheet of the day's top stories, the "Mash-Up."
Our top domestic story tonight, the very latest on that oil rig explosion off the Louisiana coast. It looks like an environmental disaster in the making here, a five-mile long slick of crude spreading across the Gulf of Mexico around the area where the rig sank earlier today. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: All right. I'm now just getting news in. The U.S. Coast Guard is confirming the rig has sunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As investigators try to determine what caused the blowout, what was an industrial accident is now in danger of becoming an ecological disaster. SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The Coast Guard says more than a million gallons of oil and diesel could spill into the Gulf of Mexico.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The air search for 11 missing oil rig workers resumed at daybreak, with choppers rejoining a pair of Coast Guard cutters that stayed on the water overnight looking for any signs of life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officials now believe the missing men may have been on the platform and may not have had enough time to escape. Loved ones can do little but hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we're going to have a lot more on this coming up a little bit later in the show.
The big international story tonight, Iran's war games. The country's Revolutionary Guard held military maneuvers in the Straits of Hormuz today. This was just one day after Tehran accused Washington of trying to dominate the world with its nuclear arsenal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Iran says that the drill, called the Great Prophet 5, is taking place in the strategic Strait of Hormuz.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The U.S. trying to determine if Iran really has something new to show here or if it's a bit of Iranian bluff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They clearly have, are trying to develop and to some extent have developed short-range and medium-range capabilities, you know? And, so, our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan would certainly be within that range.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A senior American defense official on Wednesday ruled out a military strike any time soon, saying the emphasis instead will be on sanctions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Obama administration accuses Iran of seeking to build a nuclear weapon, a claim that Tehran denies.
Our number-one political story is the gift that keeps on giving, Joe Biden's F-bomb. The president was on "The View" today talking about everything from Israel to Sarah Palin, but the ladies would not let him get away without asking for the backstory on the expletive heard round the world. And listen to his description of the president's reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We got in the limo to go over to another event, and he was laughing like the devil.
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: I said, "What's so funny?"
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: "I don't see anything funny about this."
And he said, "Well" -- he said, "Katie, my secretary, told me, when you said that to me, everybody could hear it."
And I went, oh, God almighty.
(LAUGHTER)
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": What is the appeal of Sarah Palin, exactly, do you think?
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: Look, if you meet her, she is a charming person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it something that the administration's eyeing in 2012 or is she's someone that they consider to be a legitimate threat again?
BIDEN: Look, we...
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: I'm -- I'm...
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: I -- Sarah said -- the governor says she is not running.
BARBARA WALTERS, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Also, the Israelis now are debating whether they should attack, themselves, without U.S. permission.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attack Iran.
(CROSSTALK)
WALTERS: Attack Iran, yes, without U.S. permission. If they decided to do that, what would -- what are your thoughts?
BIDEN: They're not going to do that. They're not going to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: On a lighter note, the president (sic) also let slip that he had to propose to his wife, Jill, five times before she accepted. BROWN: And the story that is getting all the buzz tonight comes from the team behind "South Park." Could creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone have gone too far this time? Last week's episode had the Prophet Mohammed in a bear suit. That prompted threats from an Islamic group objecting to the portrayal.
Well, this week, the show ran smack into the censors at Comedy Central. The network wouldn't even allow the use of the world Mohammed. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SOUTH PARK")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: OK. So, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That is (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That's Santy Claus.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Sorry, boys. I tried.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Aww, crap.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Boys, you got Santa to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? When?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: When you all said you were going to hand (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to Tom Cruise. We promised Jesus that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) would stay safely in the U-Haul.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I'm sorry, Kyle. I really thought my idea would work for you.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: If we were going to have someone in a bear costume, why would we actually have it be (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Stone and Parker say Comedy Central wouldn't even approve streaming the uncensored version online.
And that does bring us to the "Punchline" tonight, no risk of censorship here, just David Letterman cracking wise over that relentless volcano in Iceland. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Talking about air travel and the volcano, the good news, ladies and gentlemen, regular airline service is resuming. That's the good news.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LETTERMAN: The bad news, regular airline service is resuming.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: David Letterman, everybody. And that is your "Mash-Up." Coming up, President Obama today here in New York City for a big push to change the way business is done on Wall Street, but wait until you hear what the traders on the floor had to say -- right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Obama was in New York City today delivering a much-hyped speech on his plans to rein in Wall Street. In the audience, the heads of some of the nation's biggest banks, the guys many believe helped tank the economy. Well, they didn't exactly get the scolding that some predicted they would.
The president largely sidestepped most of the banker bashing that's been a loud part of this debate. Reaction from Wall Street traders was swift straight from the floor of New York Stock Exchange. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I'm here because I believe that these reforms are, in the end, not only in the best interests of our country but in the best interests of the financial sector.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all agree that there has to be changes to the rules and regulation that are in place. We just need to make sure that the pendulum doesn't swing too far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wall Street is the most over-regulated industry that I'm aware of. It always has been.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want reform. We don't want to be like -- I remember years ago aluminum salesmen or used car salesmen. We are Wall Street. We're very professional. And we want that out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The idea that one institution can get so big that it can take down the entire system, I don't think any of us ever want to go there again. How we address that, there are different approaches. The tax may be a reasonable approach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blame can't be on Wall Street. The blame has to focus on Washington. Washington has taken the reins right now to try to fix the problems.
OBAMA: I urge all of you to join me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Wall Street going to join the president?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think, like any industry, Wall Street is going to probably look out for its own interests somewhat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Wall Street is going to put their best foot forward to try to make sure that Washington understands our markets, understands our products, and understands how we are going to move forward.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a little bit of relief. I think a lot of folks expected to be scolded pretty aggressively. And it didn't work out quite that way. The president did reach out a little bit and urged us all to get on board together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, will the president's plan actually change the way Wall Street does business?
Earlier, I spoke with Virginia Democratic Senator Mark Warner and Tennessee Republican Bob Corker. Both have been working together on this issue for more than a year.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator Corker, you have called this bill regulation- lite, I know. President Obama made his case today. You heard him. Was there anything that he said that convinced you that this package is worth voting for?
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: Well, look, I mean, Mark and I have been working together for a year on a 1,400-page bill. We know the details of it. There's really nothing a president's going to say that's going to affect me and I doubt Mark.
We know the substance of the bill and there are things that need to be corrected. And I think that certainly the work we have done together is an indication that there are at least two senators here who want to try get to a regulation bill that works for our country. There are some issues from my standpoint. And I will let Mark speak for himself, but I want to get us to a place where we have a bill that will stand the test of time, that will strengthen our financial system, protect consumers, and do everything we can to ensure what happened a couple of years ago doesn't happen again.
BROWN: Senator Warner, I think one of the big criticisms I have heard, frankly, from both Democrats and Republicans is that ultimately the bill doesn't address what many believe is the fundamental problem. It doesn't stop these banks from becoming too big to fail, the words we have heard over and over, which, you know, everyone says is the main cause of our financial crisis. Why not? Why can't we put that in the bill?
(CROSSTALK)
SEN. MARK WARNER (D), VIRGINIA: Campbell, I just got to tell you I actually think that criticism is fundamentally flawed.
I think there are certain things we can do to tighten it up. But what we have put in the bill, and this was a section that Bob and I worked on, were higher capital requirements for these large institutions. We have put in an ability to look at their leverage rates, so they don't get overleveraged.
We have put a whole new category of convertible debt that converts into shareholders if a bank gets into trouble. We put a requirement that basically a bank has got to show how it can unwind itself through bankruptcy if it gets real large, and that plan has got to be signed off.
And then we have said if still all these trip wires don't work, there is still going to be an ability to resolve this firm. We want them to go through bankruptcy, but we have said at the end of the day never again will taxpayers be exposed. And I think we both found that there are different ways to kind of keep the lights on as you put a firm into basically receivership, as you turn the lights out, as you put it out of business, as you make the shareholders toast, the management team toast.
There's been some people who have criticized the fact that we actually thought that maybe the industry ought to pre-fund that basically resolution fund.
BROWN: Well, let me just ask you both very quickly about this $50 billion liquidation fund, which, frankly, a lot of Democrats do seem to be drifting away from, Senator Warner.
Tim Geithner said he is willing to let it go. The White House was never on board with this idea. Is this something that is going to get dropped from the bill?
WARNER: Campbell, we have -- I think Senator Corker and I, we actually originally put in $25 billion, because we thought a smaller amount, so there's no moral hazard. But you have got to have some funds available to keep the lights on.
If it's not going to be pre-funded by the industry, you can borrow against that, but there's potentially then taxpayer exposure. Senator Corker and I worked on the idea. Senator Corker had an idea of a trust vehicle.
There's other ways, but you've got to have some money available so that you can orderly put this business, put this big institution out of business, so you don't end up destroying the financial system when one of these institutions go down.
BROWN: Senator Corker, though, your own Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, said that, in his view, that this bailout fund -- he's called it a bailout fund -- would institutionalize bailouts, in his word -- words. Do you think he's wrong?
CORKER: Well, it's not a bailout fund.
The fact is that there are some things that need to be tightened in this bill. And I think we both agree that some flexibilities were given to regulators, and they will take them sometimes, and so you don't want those.
What I want to make sure is that, if a company fails, it absolutely fails and goes out of business. And I think that's what we have been committed to working out. The bill's not perfect in that regard because changes were made. But we know how to get it back where it needs to be and I think we are committed to doing that.
BROWN: So, both of you, finally, Senator Corker, are confident that you're going to get this done? And how many Republicans do you think will join with Democrats, Senator?
CORKER: I'm not -- I'm not confident. Look, I don't think there's a Republican senator that has spent more time on financial regulation than myself. I don't think there's a Democratic senator that's spent more time than Mark.
I'm not confident. I have been hearing some of the policy drift over the last day or two. I hope it happens, and I hope it happens before we actually have the motion to proceed next Monday night.
But, you know, at the end of the day, Campbell, bipartisan means something that both sides, large numbers, both sides of the aisle agree to. And, right now, I'm a little concerned about the policy drift that's taking place.
But, after all this time, I'm very hopeful that we do get something that ends too big to fail and deals with some of those other issues that you have alluded to tonight.
WARNER: And I think, candidly, the American people, 18 months after the meltdown, expects us to work together. And Bob Corker have shown that we can work together. And I actually think that our colleagues will do the same. I'm hopeful, at least.
BROWN: Senator Warner, Senator Corker, we do appreciate your time tonight. Gentlemen, thank you so much.
WARNER: Thank you.
CORKER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When we come back, that controversial immigration bill in Arizona sitting on the governor's desk awaiting her signature. Emotions continue to run high on both sides. You are looking at the protests right now. We will have that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, the pressure is on Arizona's Governor Jan Brewer and it is building. She has until midnight Saturday to decide if she is going to sign the country's toughest law against illegal immigration.
Police would be able to question and arrest anyone they thought could be there illegally. The governor made it known today that she is not ready to make the call yet, but the heat rising on both sides now.
Casey Wian is in Phoenix tonight for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor's office.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jan Brewer's office had to install an extra phone line to handle all the calls.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Are you asking the governor to veto it or sign it?
WIAN: Thousands and thousands of calls both for and against an impending Arizona law that would give local police more power to apprehend illegal immigrants. Opponents prayed inside and marched outside.
Arizona 1070 would require police when practical to check the immigration status of people they have a reasonable suspicion of being in the United States illegally.
Brewer has until midnight Saturday to either sign, veto the bill or do nothing, in which case it becomes law.
(on camera): Although the bill specifically prohibits officers from using race or skin color as the sole basis for an immigration status check, opponents still believe it would lead to racial profiling.
MANUELA SHEEHAN, OPPOSES IMMIGRATION LAW: There are so many families in this community that are paranoid not knowing whether they can even walk the streets, take their kids to school, go to the grocery store.
WIAN: What do you say to those fears?
PAUL BABEU, PINAL COUNTY, ARIZONA, SHERIFF: Absolutely not. And this is where those people, mainly outside of Arizona, should be ashamed that they're now putting us, who are the protectors of our families, as the bogeymen, that we are going to just out and randomly stop people because of their race or color or some other reason. That's not what we do. We go after criminals.
WIAN (voice-over): A busload of out-of-state activists arrived Thursday, joining protesters who far outnumbered supporters at the capitol. That may not be the case statewide.
LYNNE BREYER, SUPPORTS IMMIGRATION LAW: This is not the perfect immigration bill, but as a resident in Arizona for 27 years, I have watched this problem grow and grow and grow. And the bigger it gets, the more dangerous it gets.
WIAN: Back at the governor's office, overwhelmed staffers answer phones in rotating shifts...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, I will pass it on. Thank you.
WIAN: ... fielding calls from a divided public anxiously awaiting the governor's decision.
BROWN: And I want to show you right now -- this is a live picture of the demonstration still going on there in Phoenix. And Casey Wian is there for us live there as well. Casey, I know we just saw what that one officer had to say, but this law isn't even on the books yet and already the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police is saying that it would hobble their ability, in their words here, to fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner.
The law enforcement community is really divided on this, isn't it?
WIAN: Absolutely.
And I don't want to oversimplify things, but you have got a lot of law enforcement in urban communities, like Phoenix, where they have heavy illegal immigrant populations. And they're very worried that, if those illegal immigrants are afraid to cooperate with police, they are going to have a difficult time solving other crimes.
Meanwhile, you have got law enforcement officers in more rural counties where illegal immigrants and illegal immigrant smugglers and drug smugglers are running rampant through some of those rural areas. They say their resources are being strained by having to chase these folks, by other crimes.
There are law enforcement officers involved in shoot-outs with these immigrant and drug smugglers. They say they need laws like this. So, there's a very clear split in the law enforcement community. Everyone wants the governor to act on this bill. They want it to happen soon.
We just don't know if that's going to happen. It almost seems like she is just waiting until the deadline expires, maybe going to let this law take effect, and maybe try to avoid some political heat -- Campbell.
BROWN: Well, I don't think that's possible, but we will see what happens, how this plays out.
Casey Wian for us -- Casey, thanks very much.
Tonight, when we come back, you're going to meet a woman who took $300 to stop having children. The reason, she is a drug addict. So, is this a breakthrough idea that could save a generation of children or a reckless quick fix? We're going to talk about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, we are taking an in-depth look at a controversial movement to stop drug addicts from having children by giving them cold, hard cash. They're being paid to get sterilized.
CNN's Dan Simon shows who's behind the mission and who's agreeing to this extraordinary tradeoff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are on Highway 99 in California's Central Valley. Across the country, in North Carolina, there's an organization that pays women not to have any more babies. We're about to meet someone out here who accepted that controversial offer.
Where did you move from?
(voice-over): This is Joanne. She's 32 years old and a recovering drug addict. She recently gave birth to twins who tested positive for meth. Child protective services took them and her three other children away and put them in foster care.
(on camera): As a mother, explain what that was like.
JOANNE, RECOVERING ADDICT: It's hard to sit there and to explain to your children, mom, why did they take us? You know what I'm saying? And to have to tell them, look, they took me -- took you away because of my drug use.
SIMON: A few months ago, Joanne says a California social worker told her about Project Prevention. The group targets drug addicts with a $300 cash incentive not to have children.
(on camera): What we have seen is Project Prevention will go into certain communities and try to recruit candidates.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a nonprofit organization and we offer cash incentives to drug addicts and alcoholics to use long-term birth control.
JOANNE: Me personally, I thought it was a good idea. I'm not proud of the fact that my babies were born under the influence. And it's a mistake that I made. But trying -- I under -- I do see the point of view that this lady is trying to do. She is trying to keep babies from being born under the influence.
SIMON: That lady is Barbara Harris, the founder of Project Prevention.
BARBARA HARRIS, FOUNDER, PROJECT PREVENTION: If they get the tubal ligation or a vasectomy, it's a one-time payment of $300. If they get the Implanon or the IUD, it is payments every six months when they verify that the device is still in place.
JOANNE: I got the IUD. When you are on drugs, you aren't thinking about using condoms. You aren't thinking about taking a pill. You're just having sex out there using. And if it -- if she's going to give you $300 to either get an IUD that's in place for 10 years, maybe you're getting that IUD for the 10 years, maybe you can get that chance to go out there, get sober, find recovery.
SIMON: There's one critic -- and this is a drug counselor who is in Hawaii -- and he said the following.
ALAN JOHNSON, RUNS REHAB CLINIC: It is better to give the message that says, here's recovery, and you can have a wonderful life and raise children of your own and be a great parent than it is to say that there's no hope for you and take the sterilization.
JOANNE: Who's to say that, if I didn't get this done and if I was still out there using, that I wouldn't come out pregnant again? And if I was to come out pregnant again, who's to say I'm not going to do it over and over again? It's just a cycle. If I don't break it now, who's to say I'm not going to keep doing it?
SIMON: It's been one month since Joanne took the deal. No more children she says. She's been to drug rehab and undergone counseling. She hopes to get her five kids back in a few weeks and vows to remain drug free.
Dan Simon, CNN, Merced, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Up next, Barbara Harris is here to explain and defend her program, and she'll be joined by one of our most outspoken critics when we come back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Why would women agree to be sterilized in exchange for $300? Barbara Harris started the program 13 years ago. She has paid addicts in all 50 states and now plans to expand the program to England. Lynn Paltrow is not a fan of the idea. She is the executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women.
Welcome to both of you. Barbara, let me start with you here. I know this is a very controversial program. You believe in it so strongly. Why do you think this is necessary?
BARBARA HARRIS, PROJECT PREVENTION: Well, first of all, it's important that people know we don't just sterilize women. It's about long-term birth control, as well. And I believe in it because there's no logical reason anybody's yet to give me that a drug addict or an alcoholic should conceive a child that she's not going to be able to care for or keep.
BROWN: And I know you heard your critics use some pretty harsh language calling this Nazi-style social engineering, some calling it morally reprehensible. I mean, what do you say to that?
HARRIS: I mean, I don't think there's anything moral about a woman giving birth to eight, 10, 12, 21 children and end up in the foster care system. I know that I'm doing it from my heart. I adopted four of eight children born from a drug addict in Los Angeles and watched how they suffered. And those who object to what we're doing, they're not usually willing to adopt any of these children nor have they. Yet they campaign for the right of these women to procreate. And along with responsibility has to come along with every right and they believe these women have a right to procreate but they're irresponsible.
BROWN: Barbara is certainly speaking from experience here so, Lynn, explain your concerns about the program.
LYNN PALTROW, NAT'L ADVOCATES FOR PREGNANT WOMEN: Well, we are quite confident of her sincerity and we think it's great to help people access services. There are a lot of people who want access to contraception and sex ed who haven't been able to get it in this country because of the policies of the last eight, 10 years. There are people who want drug treatment. Forty-eight percent of Americans can't get drug treatment and they need it. So --
BROWN: But address what she's doing specifically, which is paying these women to either get sterilized or get birth control so they won't have kids. And given what she's lived, what she said she's adopted these kids who are the children of women who are on drugs, what is wrong with that?
PALTROW: There's nothing wrong with facilitating people doing things they want to do. What's wrong is stereotyping a whole group of people and saying drug users ought to be sterilized. That there's a class of people who are dangerous by procreating, then you label their kids as damages, many of whom aren't, and you label all people who have a variety of drug problems as people who shouldn't have children. And if the information that she suggests that drug users are all irresponsible, they all have damaged babies and none of them should be procreating.
BROWN: I don't think Barbara is necessarily making these kind of sweeping generalizations. Are you, Barbara?
HARRIS: Actually, none of those statements she just said would have come out of my mouth. I live it. I've seen it. I took in an 8- month-old baby girl and they told me that she was always going to be delayed because when she was born she tested positive for crack, PCP and heroin. We nurtured her and loved her the same we did our six birth children, and now she's on the honor roll in college.
People just need to understand that there's a few that are lucky and there's more than that that aren't lucky. They end up in foster care.
PALTROW: And that's what you're talking about.
HARRIS: They never feel loved and it's just not fair to the kids. They're born with the cards stacked against them.
BROWN: What do you mean that's what you're talking about?
PALTROW: She says more are born suffering, more are stacked against them. I have actually very carefully at those kinds of statements that are all over her Web site that she has --
BROWN: But let's --
PALTROW: An opportunity here to say and that's what's not true.
BROWN: Let's deal with reality, though.
HARRIS: Thank you.
BROWN: Because we all have -- I mean, you know, without passing judgment on these people, generally we all know millions of cases of children, maybe not millions, thousands of cases of children in the foster care system who are really struggling and get passed off and you're -- I mean, the language is what bothers you? That it's going to stigmatize these kids?
PALTROW: No. We are going back to blaming a certain kind of group of people. When we say a certain group of people shouldn't have kids and their kids are taken away, we have a problem in this country. And if you look at places like the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform, there are lots of children who are being taken away precisely because of the stereotypes from mothers who love their children but couldn't necessarily overcome their addiction in the short term --
BROWN: So can I just say --
PALTROW: And they're taken away and put in foster care systems that are not appropriate for them. And then we say these women shouldn't have the babies in the first place.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But isn't there some rational place in the middle where we --
PALTROW: Absolutely.
BROWN: -- I mean, you don't make, again, sweeping generalizations. You examine specific cases.
And, Barbara, do you not examine specific cases? And, I mean, it's not -- you're looking for the worst offenders here. Am I right?
HARRIS: Lynn Paltrow doesn't live in the real world, I don't think, because I've talked to thousands of these women over the last 10 years and they have told me stories that would horrify you. I just learned the other day about a woman who buried her baby three feet under the ground at a month old because she didn't want him anymore. Lynn Paltrow doesn't talk to these women like I talked to these women apparently because these women tell us to never stop doing what we're doing.
There's nothing positive that comes to a woman who gives birth to eight babies that are taken away from her and put in the system. That typically leads here deeper into her addiction because she feels more regret about what she's done to yet another child.
PALTROW: Barbara, I talk to a lot of women. I talk to children who are in graduate school whose parents had drug problems and they are very happy they were born and that they weren't put into a faltering foster care system. I talk to mothers who have had serious crack problems, some of whom have babysat for my children who's been able to get into recovery and have healthy children. So it's the story.
She has a story of one kind of family. And I have a story of another kind of family and where it meets is, yes, people who aren't ready to have children should be encouraged to use contraception, to get help. But what I'd rather have a conversation with Barbara and other people about is why do we live in a country where it's so hard to get drug treatment, why it's so hard to get contraception and instead we have to claim that we need to pay people money to do things they really want to do in the first place but don't have the help they need.
BROWN: All right. Apologies for running out of time here. We have to end it there. But it was an interesting debate. Barbara Harris, appreciate it. And Lynn Paltrow as well, thanks for coming on.
HARRIS: Thank you for having me.
BROWN: Tonight, when we come back, a CNN exclusive. You're going to hear firsthand one man's story of the chaos in the immediate aftermath of that deadly oil rig explosion.
Meet Captain Michael Roberts. He is going to be here. We're going to tell you his story when we come back right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's developing news, the oil rig that blew up off the coast of Louisiana Tuesday on fire ever since. Sank into the Gulf of Mexico today after 36 hours of flames setting the stage for an environmental disaster. A sheen of crude oil one mile wide, five miles long is spreading across the water. More than 300,000 gallons of that oil could leak.
Take a look at the gulf waters right now having completely swallowed the rig. The immediate concern tonight remains the search, though, for those 11 missing workers. Through all this, the Coast Guard has been getting enormous help from civilians. In a CNN exclusive, David Mattingly talks with one captain who got as close as anyone could to the flames.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He witnessed close up a catastrophe at sea and captured it for iReport.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mostly everybody got off. Still got people missing.
MATTINGLY: We were there when Captain Michael Roberts made his way home to his wife's embrace. He wasn't surprised to learn that just an hour earlier, the burning oil rig he tried to help save had sunk into the sea.
(on camera): Do you know that that rig is now under water?
CAPTAIN MICHAEL ROBERTS, ODYSSEA MARINE: Honestly, I expected it when I was there to totally go under.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Responding to emergency calls, Roberts piloted his supply boat toward the disaster in the darkness. Approaching the rig, he says it looked like the sun had come up and it felt like it when he got in close and shot this on his phone.
ROBERTS: And I shot as much as I could but I mean, it literally felt like you stepped into a convection oven.
MATTINGLY (on camera): Was it making any noise? Or pretty feeling the impact?
ROBERTS: It was a constant roaring. It would roar with flare.
And if you can feel the heat right now --
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Roberts' vessel joined the firefighting efforts well into the next day. He was there when the rig began to become unstable.
(on camera): How close did you get?
ROBERTS: We were holding off about 25, 30 feet and sometimes the rig was actually swaying.
MATTINGLY: What were you doing that close?
ROBERTS: Trying to get as much water on it as I could. Trying to help at any means necessary, I mean, that we could do without damaging the vessel and putting our crew members at risk.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): But in the end, it wasn't enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the surrounding boats in the area.
MATTINGLY: Roberts' boat and the others who had joined in couldn't stop the fire from claiming the entire rig. And the possible, perhaps probable, human losses aren't easy to talk about.
(on camera): What went through your mind?
ROBERTS: Prayer. Just praying for anybody who was on there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And David Mattingly is joining me right now. David, when Captain Roberts got to the rig, I know the rescue effort was well underway. But how does he describe the scene generally? What did he see?
MATTINGLY: Well, he says that when he first got there which was a couple of hours after the explosion, he said he saw the Coast Guard there on the scene and there were a number of other boats there. He saw a lot of lifeboats that were in the other with workers and then he says he also saw the Coast Guard rescuing workers, sending divers in, rescuing workers right from the water itself. So they had to be in that water for quite a -- well, at least a couple of hours before the Coast Guard got there. And one thing he keeps saying over and over was the magnitude of this flame, the heat that was coming off of it. He says it's a miracle anyone was able to get off that rig unhurt.
BROWN: Wow. David Mattingly for us tonight. David, thanks very much.
It is the tenth anniversary of what may have been the most dramatic international custody battle in U.S. history. The fight for Elian Gonzalez. An update on his new life in just a moment. But first, Randi Kaye has tonight's "Download" for us -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Campbell. We're going to start in Thailand tonight, where three people are dead and dozens injured after a string of grenade attacks in Bangkok. The attacks follow weeks of anti-government protests in the capital. A deputy prime minister tells CNN the grenades were launched from the area used by protesters, but the activists deny any role. They want Thailand's prime minister to dissolve the government, call a new election and leave the country.
President Obama today in New York City selling his plan to reform the banking industry in a much anticipated speech. He told the crowd of elite Wall Street bankers that the rules of the game need to change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm here because I believe that these reforms are in the end not only in the best interest of our country but in the best interest of the financial sector. And unless your business model depends on bilking people, there's little to fear from these new rules.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: A key vote on the Senate financial reform package is set for Monday.
A whiff of sour grapes today from Microsoft founder Bill Gates. Gates gives a lukewarm review to Apple's new iPad, calling it just OK. But let's get a second opinion from 99-year-old Virginia Campbell. She says her iPad has changed her life, letting her read and write for the first time in years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIRGINIA CAMPBELL, IPAD FAN: It's opened the world. It's just great because before that, I couldn't -- I could barely see to read.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Virginia Campbell has never owned a computer before and now she is reading books on the iPad and writing limericks on it, as well. So take that, Bill Gates.
BROWN: So wait, I guess you can make the print really big.
KAYE: Yes. I do that. I mean, I admit I'm already doing that.
BROWN: I'm going to get that for my grandmother.
KAYE: You're in trouble.
BROWN: Randi Kaye -- Randi, thanks very much.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in a few minutes. Larry, what do you have for us tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Oh, the wait is over, Campbell. Seth MacFarlane finally made it here. The creator of "Family Guy" is with us tonight. One of the funniest people in the world, he'll tell us what's going on in that brain of his, what created Stewie and Brian and Cleveland Brown among many others. Seth MacFarlane next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in just a few minutes.
Well, remember little Elian Gonzalez? It's hard to believe but it's been exactly 10 years since he was seized in his Miami home by U.S. agents to reunite him with his father in Cuba. What is he up to now? We're going to show you the pictures when we come back.
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BROWN: It's time for "M2" with Mary Matalin and Roland Martin. Mary and Roland are ready to take on some of today's hottest topics.
Tonight, Mary is joining us from Washington and Roland is in Chicago. Guys, what have you got?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Campbell, let's start with the story of Washington gossip. All the president's men are talking about leaving or at least it's been rumored they're leaving from the chief of staff Rahm Emanuel to OMB Director Peter Orszag, to maybe their architect David Axelrod, maybe Robert Gibbs.
Not unusual for a midterm course correction but kind of unusual to have so many top guns leaving and will be problematic, I think, to the president if, in fact, they all do leave. It will be interesting to see if he can talk them into some of them staying. Otherwise, he's going to be -- the cowboys are going to be running the show over there.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know what, these are the games we see in Washington all the time. And frankly, I think for the average American out there, they don't really care. Somebody is going to fill the job anyway and so it's not shocking we see these stories. And because again, we have been hearing is Rahm going to run as mayor of Chicago. What is Orszag going to do? Axelrod is all tired. I'm like, you know what, it's Washington. It's gossip. That's what it is. MATALIN: You know, there's a little bit of a Washington parlor game but Americans should be concerned. And I think they are more concerned than you're thinking, Roland of who is surrounding this president. It is a very big order for the American people out there to understand what informs this president and it will -- this is a little bit more than a parlor game. But, well, let's just see how it unfolds and I'm also curious to see if they're going to -- if they do leave if they're going to cash in after all their trash talking on lobbyists.
MARTIN: Well, look, I mean, everybody cashes in these days when you leave the White House, whether you're Republican or Democrat. So it's not shocking at all that we would expect anybody to cash in. But again, the average person sitting out there, I mean, they're really not, you know, trying to figure out what's going on, you know, in terms of who surrounds the president.
Another story, Mary, that caught our eye, Reverend Franklin Graham pulled off of the program at the Pentagon, the National Day of Prayer program, because of some criticism he made with regards to Islam. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. FRANKLIN GRAHAM: True Islam cannot be practiced in this country. You can't beat your wife. You cannot murder your children if you think they've committed adultery or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: So OK. So, Mary, look. You know, he makes these comments, criticizing Islam, trying to clean it up. What? The National Day of Prayer is not a Christian event. It is a National Day of Prayer for all faiths and so I understand why he was pulled off because his comments frankly were very insensitive to Muslims.
MATALIN: Well, what he said was he loves Muslims. He hates what their religion does, inspires them to do and specifically singled out women. And if you've been through the Middle East and what that religion -- how it does enslave women up to, and including stoning, and what those in the name of Islam do to children, chaining them to car bombs and such, it is -- taking the prayer aside, they can -- I get what they're saying and why don't want to be there. But if more people and mostly Muslims should speak out against the atrocities created in the name of Islam.
MARTIN: I'm not going to -- look, first of all, again, I think the people -- he made some very broad generalizations with regards to Islam which is one of the reasons why he had to come back and clean it up. But you know what, Mary? We can also talk about the oppression of women in the Christian faith, as well. You go to a lot of churches, they don't want women sitting on the front row. They can't wear pants, wear their hair a certain why. So it's not like we don't have the same kind of, you know, attacks on women. The Christian faith -- I'm not saying is the same but I'm simply saying it does exist in the Christian faith, as well. MATALIN: Not in my church.
MARTIN: Not at your church.
MATALIN: Not even close.
MARTIN: OK.
MATALIN: I don't know any Christians that stone their women. OK, let's move on because this is really -- this is something that I don't want my girls to hear that Christians are belittling, because they don't. Nor do I want them to learn of this. Forty-four percent of respondents say that the regulations on marijuana -- what is this a nation of potheads? Should be the same as those for alcohol. I don't know about that. My libertarian sense says let's regulate it and gain some revenue off of it. But I don't --
MARTIN: Of course. That libertarian is coming out. Come on now.
MATALIN: But you know what? If you have kids, your feelings about this, it's one thing when you're college. It's another thing when you're, you know, you've got to deal with kids. Marijuana's not the same as alcohol.
MARTIN: But here's the deal though, Mary. I mean, look. You hear comedians say it all the time that when somebody gets high on marijuana, you don't see them crashing into people in the streets when they're driving. Look, the bottom line is alcohol has such -- has a very negative effect on people when they drink and the fact of the matter is we make money off of alcohol. It's a little harder for people to say, well, marijuana which is a natural plant is different.
Look, I've never done drugs. I don't drink alcohol, so I really don't care. But we make money off one and we see the other one is bad, that's the problem.
MATALIN: See, because they're two different things but I will say this. We took the kids to Amsterdam last year just to see what that whole scene was like in a free pot zone. You know who's smoking pot and going down there? Potheads, all right. So I guess the bottom line here is teach your kids to do anything and all things in moderation and responsibly.
MARTIN: And let's make some money off of it. Come on. We need it.
MATALIN: You sound like a capitalist, Roland. Go ahead. I don't like capitalism.
MARTIN: We need the revenue.
MATALIN: There you go.
MARTIN: Campbell, back to you. BROWN: Thanks, guys. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. But up next, Elian Gonzalez, the child back then and the young man now. After this.
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BROWN: Elian Gonzalez. It is hard to believe that it was 10 years ago today that federal agents raided his relatives' home and then reunited the child with his father in Cuba. The prize-winning photo says it all.
Elian had been found months earlier off the coast of Florida, the only survivor of a group of Cuban citizens trying to make it to the United States. His mother was among the dead, and Elian's relatives in Miami had taken him in as we remember. His father in Cuba demanded his return touching off a media frenzy and an international custody battle which his father eventually won.
And here he is today, 16-year-old military student in Cuba. His grandmother describes her grandson as a man, a little man who is living a normal life there.
That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
