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Campbell Brown
Senators vs. Goldman Sachs
Aired April 27, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. We're live in Los Angeles, where the hot topic tonight, as it is across the country, is the grilling that Goldman Sachs executives got today on Capitol Hill.
One senator after another smacked down the Goldman guys, comparing them to Vegas pit bosses, and quoting e-mails using language we can't repeat here.
Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein insisted his firm did nothing wrong. So, is this just another Washington show trial, or will something finally change this time? We will ask the one-time sheriff of Wall Street, former Governor Eliot Spitzer.
I will also sit down with two rising political stars, Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty and Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer. We are talking immigration, bailouts and the road to the White House.
We have got a lot to get to tonight. As always, though, we begin with your cheat sheet for the day's top stories, the "Mash-Up."
And our top domestic story tonight: An out-of-control passenger forces a Delta flight from Paris to land in Bangor, Maine. Law enforcement sources tell CNN the passenger, an American citizen who once served in the Air Force, claimed to have explosives and a false passport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: From multiple law enforcement sources, we have heard a name. The name is Derek Stansberry. He is from the state of Florida.
Right now, he is being detained by law enforcement and being questioned about exactly what he said on board.
DIANE SAWYER, HOST, "WORLD NEWS": Federal air marshals sat on board him -- sat on him on board until the plane landed and blocked the cargo area with luggage, just in case.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": The man was questioned, no explosives found. But he could face federal charges and prison time for making those false statements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The man's name was not flagged in any security databases. Passengers are spending the night in Maine and are expected to continue on to Atlanta tomorrow.
Our number-one political story, the growing firestorm over Arizona's tough new immigration law. Just a little while ago, San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom banned official travel to the state in response to the law. The ban takes effect immediately and is just the latest salvo against the measure. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: There are new calls right now to boycott the state of Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first to cancel their plans, 400 members of the American Immigration Lawyers Association.
CRYSTAL WILLIAMS, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION: We just cannot in good conscience be in a state and be supporting the economy of a state that will do something like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From across the border, a slap in the face. Mexico's government issued an official travel warning that their citizens could be bothered and questioned without much cause at any time in Arizona.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you don't have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to be harassed. That's something that could potentially happen. That's not the right way to go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Still, the law is wildly popular with many Arizonans, especially Republicans in tough races.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: The people in Southern Arizona have had their rights violated by the unending and constant flow of drug smugglers and human traffickers across their property.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Today, Attorney General Eric Holder raised the specter of a court challenge. And, meanwhile, Mexico's president warns the law will put a chill on Mexican-American relations.
The big international story tonight is something that you got to see to believe. We are no strangers to politicians behaving badly in this country. But take a look at what happened when Ukraine's parliament met earlier today to ratify a treaty with Russia. You could call it bare-knuckle politics, Ukrainian-style.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is the floor of the Ukrainian parliament. But the scene looks like something from a barroom brawl. Fists were flying. Hair was being pulled, the speaker at one point pelted with eggs, not by protesters, but by the politicians themselves. He had to be shielded from the barrage with umbrellas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And if the eggs and fistfights weren't enough, several smoke bombs were also set off.
And the story getting all the buzz tonight, the graphic new music video from the singer/rapper known as MIA. She may be best known for a song on the soundtrack of "Slumdog Millionaire," but the video for her new single, "Born Free," is generating a lot of controversy with its brutality and nudity. Music critics have called it a political allegory that references Guantanamo, Iraq, and the Taliban.
This is about all we can show you. Fan reaction has been divided. YouTube actually did pull the video.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. This is courtesy of Jay Leno. He is having some fun with the last big financial scandal, the SEC's porn problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO")
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": This is unbelievable. A new report shows that during that last big economic crisis, you know, the whole meltdown thing, employees of the Securities and Exchange Commission used government computers to look at porn.
In one case, an SEC attorney spent up to eight hours a day looking at and downloading porn, eight hours a day. And here is the worst part. He then billed them for 10 hours. It's unbelievable.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jay Leno, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
It was the picture of the day in Washington today, top execs from Goldman Sachs being sworn in, preparing to take a beating from lawmakers.
Former Governor Eliot Spitzer will join us coming up to talk about today's grilling and why it matters to all of us after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It was a rough day on Capitol Hill for the elite investment bank Goldman Sachs, as top executives faced off with angry senators. They were repeatedly asked to defend their practice of allegedly selling mortgage investments they knew were lemons, just as the nation's financial meltdown was starting.
Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein faced hostile scrutiny on Capitol Hill. We're going start tonight with chief business correspondent Ali Velshi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FABRICE TOURRE, Executive Director, Structured Products Group Trading, Goldman Sachs: I deny categorically the SEC's allegations.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's trader Fabrice Tourre. You may know him better as Fabulous Fab, the name he gave himself in a now famous e-mail cited by the Securities and Exchange Commission in its fraud charge against Goldman Sachs.
SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: How did it make you feel when they were released publicly?
TOURRE: As I will repeat again, Dr. Coburn, I regret these e- mails. They reflect very bad on the firm and on myself. And, you know, I think, you know, I wish I hadn't send those.
VELSHI: But that's about as close to an apology as the Senate subcommittee got on Wednesday. Dan Sparks used to head Goldman's mortgage division.
DANIEL SPARKS, FORMER PARTNER, HEAD OF MORTGAGES DEPARTMENT, GOLDMAN SACHS: Regret to me means something that you feel like you did wrong, and -- and I don't have that.
MICHAEL SWENSON, MANAGING DIRECTOR, STRUCTURED PRODUCTS GROUP TRADING, GOLDMAN SACHS: I do not think that we did anything wrong.
VELSHI: In fact, if anything about today's hearing stood out, it was its bipartisan nature. Both Democrats and Republicans lined up to take a piece out of seven Goldman execs.
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: All of you were lemming- like. You were chasing each other. What you worried about most was a bad article in "The Wall Street Journal," not a regulator. You were chasing compensation, you were chasing your colleagues and other investment banks and you were trying to make a killing.
SEN. JOHN ENSIGN (R), Nevada: In Las Vegas, actually, people know that the odds are against them. They play anyway. On Wall Street, they manipulate the odds while you're playing the game.
VELSHI: But the sparks really started flying at the end of the day's hearings. Listen to this showdown between the head of the subcommittee, Michigan Senator Carl Levin and Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein.
LLOYD BLANKFEIN, CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: Senator, you keep using the word betting against.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Yes. In a deal where you are selling securities and you are intending to keep the short side of that deal, which is what happened here in a lot of these deals, do you think you have an obligation to tell the person that you're selling that security to in that deal that you are keeping the short position in that deal? BLANKFEIN: No, I don't think we would have to tell them. I don't think we would disclose that. And I don't know, again, intention for a market maker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: And that's kind of how it went. We are many hours overdue on this one, Campbell. This conversation should have ended hours ago, Lloyd Blankfein still in front of the committee right now, continuing to testify. And I don't think either side is any closer toward understanding each other -- Campbell.
BROWN: Well, quite a marathon there. Ali Velshi watching it all today -- Ali, thanks very much.
And two men who were also watching today's hearing very closely, former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer, who is known for his get-tough approach with Wall Street, and William Cohan, who is a contributor to TheDailyBeast.com and who is also author of "House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess on Wall Street."
Welcome to both of you.
Governor Spitzer, let me start with you here.
What in your view was the objective of today's hearing? What were they really hoping to accomplish, these senators?
ELIOT SPITZER (D), FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Well, I think the senators wanted to embarrass Goldman and demonstrate that they, as Congress, were finally standing up to Wall Street.
There was a powerful op-ed in "The New York Times" today that said blame Congress as well as Wall Street. And I think Congress needs to resuscitate its own image. And I think that's what is going on here. The senators and members of Congress on the House side will have their chance to do this, are going to show they're tough, show they understand this, show they're poised to act.
Of course, nothing today really advanced the ball. What you saw was that Wall Street believes it was playing by the rules. And it's saying, if you want to change the rules, go ahead and change them, but don't do it retrospectively.
The members of Congress are saying to Wall Street, you fundamentally violated your duty to the public, to the investment community, and you are nothing more than self-centered, self- aggrandizing investors yourselves.
BROWN: So, Mr. Cohan, do you agree with this? In theory, I'm guessing sort of new information was supposed to come out of this hearing process that would inform kind of the regulatory reform situation. Of course, the Senate was voting on that while the hearing was going on.
So, if these kind of hearings aren't happening before the changes occur, it does seem like this is nothing more than senators grandstanding.
WILLIAM COHAN, AUTHOR, "HOUSE OF CARDS: A TALE OF HUBRIS AND WRETCHED EXCESS ON WALL STREET": And, Campbell, it definitely seems that way.
They released 900 pages of documents and e-mails, which is a treasure trove for anybody who really wants to dig into it. The problem is, I think probably they lost their audience for this hearing, which is still going on. It began at 10:00 this morning, still going on. I think they lost their audience to this hearing the moment that they said synthetic CDO, which is not a word that anybody really wants to think too much about.
The irony to me is, why didn't some of these senators who are -- especially on the Republican side, who are so negative about Goldman Sachs and Wall Street, why didn't they just vote to have this be able to discuss this reform legislation that they blocked yesterday? Why aren't they on the Senate floor debating that, instead of lambasting Goldman Sachs?
Because, as the governor said, this is the real opportunity to change the behavior on Wall Street through legislation, because, left to their own devices, Wall Street is going to do what it does best, which is make money.
BROWN: Right.
SPITZER: I think one thing, Campbell, that -- can I add, jump in here?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Yes, go ahead.
SPITZER: One thing that did come out of the hearing today is the complexity of the interwoven relationships that Goldman Sachs has with those when they're creating a product, betting for it or against it, marketing that product, dealing with intermediaries, and the question that arises is, to whom do they owe a duty of integrity and loyalty?
And if you listen to the questions and the answers today, remarkable answers when they were asked, do you owe truthfulness and a fiduciary duty to your clients? And, really, nobody said they did. So, that is...
BROWN: And stop right there, because I want to get a break in, because I want to play that sound for our viewers. I think it was pretty extraordinary.
SPITZER: Yes.
BROWN: Let's take a quick break.
We're going to come back and talk about that may -- whether or not what Goldman did was ethical or not, but maybe more importantly here, was it even illegal? It's not even clear that it was illegal. We're going to debate that and play the sound after the break. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we are back right now with former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer and also William Cohan.
And, Governor Spitzer, I want to pick up on something that you were referencing a moment ago. Senators really wanted to drill down on Goldman's duty to clients vs. their desire to make money for the firm. And Senator Susan Collins really pressed the executives on whether they had a duty to act in the best interests of their clients, yes or no. As you said, it was a yes-or-no question. And only one gave her a straight answer. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPARKS: Senator, I had a duty to act in a very straightforward way and a very open way with my clients, I -- technically, with respect to investment advice, we were a market maker in that regard.
JOSHUA BIRNBAUM, FORMER MANAGING DIRECTOR, STRUCTURED PRODUCTS GROUP TRADING, GOLDMAN SACHS: Not only do I believe that we do; I believe that we did.
SWENSON: It's our responsibility as market makers to provide a market level bid and offer to our clients and to serve our clients in helping them transact at levels that are fair market prices and help meet their needs.
TOURRE: We have a duty to serve our clients by showing prices on transactions that they ask us to show prices for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I mean, this has got to be part of the problem. Nobody can say, yes, I have a responsibility to my client.
SPITZER: Let me tell you, if I were a competitor to Goldman, I would take that snippet and send it to every potential client and say they can't even say they're going do act in your best interests.
This cuts to the core of what is the problem with Wall Street. In whose interests are they acting? Not their clients. Certainly not the public's. So, what are they doing, and why did we give tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars, and for what? That is why the public is so outraged. And that's why Congress is so outraged. And we should be outraged.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: So, William, though, address this question, too, because the fact is, nobody really got an answer to this either today, it seemed to me, is, was this illegal or not, what they were doing, what they were allegedly doing?
COHAN: I think there's two things. There is the SEC's case, which is one about civil liability for failure to disclose in this very technical security that Goldman created. But, to me, there is also a different question. And, in this hearing, you can see they were not even speaking the same language.
And I think Goldman has unfortunately transformed itself from a firm that was very client-focused and very client-dedicated to a firm that, you know, really brushes up against the line of whose interest they're really acting in.
And just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. And I think the problem that they're facing, both in this hearing and broader -- broader speaking in the population as a whole, is that people don't understand what they are doing or why they would want to do the things that they're doing and why they would risk their firm's reputation, when it's so close to the edge.
I think, technically, they can probably make the legal argument and squeak by. But on moral and ethical grounds, I'm not sure this is the position they want to be in.
BROWN: So, let me ask you both about the ratings agencies, also, that gave these bonds AAA ratings, knowing they were backed by shaky mortgages. At what -- how much are they responsible for what has happened?
SPITZER: Well, again, I think this is what -- where we get into the zone that Bill just referred to. Finding them civilly liable may be difficult, although I think cases can be made and will be made and should be made.
But I think what this reflects is that the system of rating agencies that we created is a complete charade. They were thrown AAA ratings on virtually anything that was put in front of them because they were being paid by those who were issuing those bonds.
There was absolutely no credibility. I viewed those ratings as really insurance for companies that wanted to be able to point to a legal document to justify what they did, not as a meaningful measure of whether or not these were bonds that would be repaid.
COHAN: It's clear that investors...
BROWN: William, do you agree?
COHAN: Yes, I do agree with Eliot.
Clearly, investigators abdicated their responsibility to do the due diligence that they were required to do on behalf of the people whose money they were investing. They just took the rating agency's rating as gospel and went with it. Little did they know or they should have known that the rating agencies were paid by Wall Street to get the ratings that they wanted.
I mean, all the world is a stage, as Shakespeare said. I think everybody in this drama played their roles. And it's unfortunate that they all worked together in a way that hurt the American economy, the American people, and our treasury. I mean, $12 trillion later, we're still digging out of this.
SPITZER: And could I add one other thing? And I think Bill has made this point so well in so many of the pieces of writing that he has submitted -- printed elsewhere.
We now have three major rating agencies, four or five investment banks. When you have that concentration of power, that much capital flowing through so few entities, bad things are going to happen.
We lost any competitive spirit, any sense of transparency, any sense of fiduciary obligation to either client or the public. And that's why a much more fundamental restructuring of Wall Street is necessary than is being proposed right now on Capitol Hill.
BROWN: And that's unfortunate -- we don't have time to get into it -- but the concerns being raised about how this bill doesn't address so many of these issues that you have pointed out here.
Former Governor Spitzer and William Cohan, appreciate your time tonight, gentlemen. Thank you so much.
SPITZER: Thank you.
COHAN: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: Coming up: Arizona gets hit with boycotts and a Mexico travel advisory, as outrage over its immigration crackdown grows. Just how far should a state go to protect its borders? You're going to hear from two border governors, Tim Pawlenty and Brian Schweitzer, on that and many other issues when we come back.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Mexico today issued an advisory for its citizens traveling to Arizona. With the new state law mandating police stop anyone they suspect is an illegal alien, Mexico's foreign minister said any Mexican citizen could be -- quote -- "harassed at any time."
Immigration just one of the thorny issues that states are dealing with these days, and just one of the political hot potatoes congressional candidates are grappling with as the midterms approach.
And, tonight, we're lucky enough to be able to talk through this and other issues with two of the nation's most prominent governors, Minnesota's Tim Pawlenty and Montana's Brian Schweitzer. They're joining me here in Los Angeles, where we're all attending philanthropist Mike Milken's annual conference, where we will all be a little bit later tonight.
So, welcome to both of you, gentlemen.
Let's start with immigration.
And, Governor Pawlenty, I do want to get you on the record on this. Do you support the law that has been passed in Arizona?
GOV. TIM PAWLENTY (R), MINNESOTA: I haven't had a chance to go through it in detail yet, Campbell, but I think it reflects a number...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But it's been all over cable news for the last three days.
PAWLENTY: Sure.
But I think it reflects a number of things. First of all, Arizona is clearly frustrated with the lack of attention and action from the federal government on this issue. Number two, we need an immigration system that allows for legal and orderly and reasonable immigration. But the current system is not that.
It's frustrating and it's broken. So, it needs to be fixed. So, they're taking steps to do that. I applaud their efforts to try to have better enforcement. But I am concerned about the standard that law enforcement can and must interact with anybody and try to detain or interact with somebody on probable cause.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But nobody seems to know what the standard is.
(CROSSTALK)
PAWLENTY: That's the problem. I think the definition of what is the probable cause to believe that somebody is here illegally, that would have to be better defined. And we have got to get some comfort around that.
BROWN: So, you're not OK with the law as it is now? There are a lot of people saying it is unconstitutional, and there are also a lot of people, as I'm sure you know, who believe that, if you're Latino and you're in Arizona, you should be afraid to walk down the street now.
PAWLENTY: We do need better enforcement for immigration. But we need to do it in a fair manner, and we need to do it in a nondiscriminatory manner.
And how they interpret this language in this statute, in this law, which is pretty ambiguous, is going to be a very important part about whether this is fair and whether it works or not, and that remains to be seen.
BROWN: So, would you -- if you were governor of Arizona and this law had passed, would you have signed it?
PAWLENTY: Well, I want to go through it in detail. I haven't had a chance to read it, Campbell. But I -- again, I think we do need better enforcement. We need better enforcement at the border. And it's OK and I would support having fraud-proof, tamper-proof identity document for visitors and immigrants.
But to be able to say to law enforcement you must approach people on reasonable suspicion, how are you defining reasonable suspicion? It has a lot of definitional work that needs to be done.
BROWN: It's terrifying for a lot of people, and I think rightly so.
Governor, where are you on this?
GOV. BRIAN SCHWEITZER (D), MONTANA: I would have vetoed the bill. And let me tell you why.
The problem that we have with immigration is we haven't given a path for people to become citizens. But if you're a roofer and you need people who roof, if you have gardeners that work for you or people in your kitchen staff, you're hiring illegals.
And so we're saying to the illegals, you're the one breaking a law. And what are we doing about the people who are employing them? I understand the frustration that Arizona has, New Mexico, and Texas with this immigration wave. But this isn't the first time in American history that we have had this sort of thing.
We have had this sort of thing with the Chinese, with the Irish, with the Germans, with the Norwegians. And so now there is a big crush of Latin Americans. But let's face it. Southwest part of the United States was part of Latin America, and now it's part of the United States.
BROWN: So, as a Democrat, though, this is likely now to be on the front burner in some form heading into the midterm elections. And how does that help you as a Democrat? Do you -- I mean, in terms of your priorities, especially someone who is from a more conservative state, what do you think that means for more moderate Democrats who are facing tough races?
SCHWEITZER: We are a country of immigrants. If the crow and the Cheyenne and the black feet of Montana could redo their immigration policy, none of us would be in Montana except for the native Montanans. So this isn't the first time that we dealt with it. We have got to give a path to people to become citizens. We cannot have millions of people that are undocumented working in an underground economy, and it means Washington, D.C. has to act.
BROWN: Should they act now?
SCHWEITZER: They should act --
BROWN: Should this be top priority?
SCHWEITZER: They should have acted during the last five years. But I think Arizona, this is a cry for help. We need help down here. And I think the federal government has got to step in.
BROWN: So talk to me more generally about 2012. And I'll start with you and come back to you on this, because a lot of people are anticipating it's going to be a really, really tough year for Democrats.
SCHWEITZER: Well, I can't tell you about '12 because that's a long time for me.
BROWN: I'm sorry. I misspoke. 2010. I looked at Governor Pawlenty and it made me think of 2012. I meant 2010. A lot of people do think it's going to be a tough November for Democrats.
SCHWEITZER: Well, if history is any guide for both parties, the party in power loses a few seats. I think that they're probably going to lose some seats in the House. We'll probably lose some seats in the Senate. And Republicans will probably gain a little bit among governors.
BROWN: So you are one of the few, I think, governors who could probably -- who I don't know how many others have a surplus frankly right now. And Democrats are being painted as big spenders. That's kind of the tag they are getting heading into November. So what advice would you give for your colleagues?
SCHWEITZER: Well, you have to actually start before the earthquake arrives. So three years ago, I was challenging every expense in government and building large surpluses to protect ourselves from a downturn. A lot of people say whatever money comes in, you should spend. But since we can't deficit spend at the states, the responsible thing is to put money aside. That's what we did in Montana.
BROWN: So what are your plans? Let me just put it on the table because -- yes. You're going -- I've got your schedule here.
PAWLENTY: I'm going to open up a rodeo or some kind of --
BROWN: It's perfect.
SCHWEITZER: We're going to the cattle business together.
PAWLENTY: (INAUDIBLE) Montana.
BROWN: That sounds pretty good. So I've got your schedule. You're going to South Carolina next week. Obviously, a key primary state. You've already been to Iowa, New Hampshire this year. That looks an awful lot I think to most people like somebody testing the waters.
PAWLENTY: Well, I have a PAC. Thanks for asking. Its Freedom First PAC timpawlenty.com. But more seriously, 2010 is right in front of us. This is going to determine the direction of the country in the near term. We'll worry about 2012 and what I and others may do after these elections, Campbell. But I haven't made a decision about what I'm going to do or not.
BROWN: So when -- what's your deadline? And how are you thinking about -- PAWLENTY: I don't have a hard deadline. But you know I want to finish my time as governor. I want to do all I can to help the Republican governors get elected or reelected this fall and the vice chair of the Republican Governors Association. And then I've got this federal PAC to help federal candidates. And I'll worry about 2012 in early 2011.
BROWN: All right, gentlemen. Well, we look forward. We're going to continue this discussion for a much smaller audience a little bit later tonight. But to both of you, appreciate you coming on the show.
PAWLENTY: Thanks a lot. Good to be here.
BROWN: Coming up, an explosive new documentary on a beltway epidemic. "The Other City" shines a glaring light on Washington's hidden shame. Disease-ridden neighborhoods literally in the shadow of the nation's capitol. We have a sneak peek of this. You're not going to want to miss it. That's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, a side of Washington, D.C. that tourists rarely see. The three percent of the city's population that lives with HIV.
Well, now a new documentary called "The Other City" shines a light on the epidemic. And it premiered last night at New York's Tribeca Film Festival where we caught up with one of the people behind this very powerful film. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS, WRITER, CO-PRODUCER, "THE OTHER CITY": I'm Jose Antonio Vargas. I'm the writer and co-producer of "The Other City." I was going to scream probably when I heard that we got in.
Which one of these cities you think has the highest rate of HIV or AIDS? It's Washington, D.C.
This story takes place in the capital of the most powerful nation in the world. In every city, there is another city. It's so easy to just say oh, it's the other people that get HIV anyway. At least three percent of the whole adult population in the District of Columbia is HIV positive. One percent constitutes an epidemic. One percent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I found out I was HIV positive, I thought I was going die.
Go get your brother. Get your brother.
VARGAS: This is America's underclass told through a virus. That's what the film really is about. Yes, it's about HIV and AIDS. But it's America's underclass as seen through this virus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My biggest hurdle that I'm trying to overcome is my housing situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When will this be open? OK.
VARGAS: We had forgotten that the epidemic shifted, and it's no longer just gay men being infected. The leading cause of death for African-American women 25 to 34 is AIDS.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. James is here.
PATRICIA WUDEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: A person is referred to Joseph's house because it's thought that they could die within a few months, at least.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he was 18, he came out. And to all of us, yes, well, we know. Unfortunately, by then, he had already been infected with AIDS. I do know that he told me that the man that he had this relationship with knew he was infected.
This is my essence blanket here. My essence of Jimmy. So they're not allowed to wash it ever again.
VARGAS: When it comes to personal responsibility, people do things all the time that we're like why are you doing that?
Hold on a second. All right. That could have happened to me. There by the grace of God go I.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will have to turn in one dirty one to get one clean.
VARGAS: For two months, I rode the RV with Ron Daniels, you know, exchanging needles for clean ones. He was a drug addict. He was a heroin addict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seventy-five to 80 percent of my friends were drug users, and 65 to 70 percent of my friends are dead.
I'm (INAUDIBLE). I think that's when my drug use escalated. I was a mess. Shattered, beat up. And I was trying to figure out how did this happen?
VARGAS: It's a very controversial and a very provocative thing. To shoot up, they have to be using clean needles. You know, they have to protect themselves and other people.
JANIA (ph) EDWARDS, HAS AIDS: Good afternoon. My name is Jania (ph) Edwards. I have AIDS. I don't want to be homeless. I'm tired of waiting on the waiting list. I'm tired of them sending me to this case manager and that case manager. I'm tired. And I need my housing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'll get better.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm calling about Jimmy.
VARGAS: I guess in reporting about it and getting to know these stories and looking at them as people who have made mistakes, that's when you I think recognize into the humanity in other people. We all make bad choices. That's why you should care about us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Again, that documentary is called "The Other City." And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Still ahead, a revealing memoir from an Obama family insider. What the first lady's big brother learned about the future president, all from a game of basketball.
But first, more must-see news happening right now. Tom Foreman here with tonight's "Download."
Hey, Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell. President Obama lashed out at Senate Republicans for stalling the financial reform bill twice in two days. The president out in Iowa called for, quote, "an honest debate" over how to reform Wall Street and vowed not to let industry lobbyists kill the bill. Meanwhile, the Republicans floated an alternative plan they say could lead to a compromise.
Tonight, the Air Force is shedding light on the American who allegedly claimed to have explosives aboard a Delta flight earlier. Officials tell CNN he was a senior airman with the Air Force who worked as an intelligence specialist from 2005 to 2009. The flight from Paris to Atlanta was diverted to Bangor, Maine. So far law enforcement tells CNN they found no sign of any explosives.
Wal-Mart could pay billions in damages. Some legal experts predict now that the federal court has OK'd the biggest class action employment suit in U.S. history. The suit claims Wal-Mart paid and promoted women less than men. The new ruling allows more than a million women to be a part of the suit. Plaintiffs' lawyers say Wal- Mart has vowed to appeal all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Thousands are pouring into the Los Angeles sports arena not for a ballgame but for free health care. Over the next week, more than 8,000 in total will get medical, dental and eye treatment absolutely free of charge. Making it happen, a team of 300 doctors, dentists, and other medical professionals volunteering their time.
And here in Washington, D.C., the Goldman Sachs hearing up in front of the Senate just wrapped up. All day they were up there talking things over.
BROWN: Wow.
FOREMAN: Former and current executives of the company, as you know, Campbell, basically said all day, hey, we didn't do anything wrong. We were just protecting our company's interest and doing our jobs. And a lot of senators obviously raised some pretty high eyebrows at that claim.
BROWN: All right. Eleven hours of testimony, too. All right. Tom foreman for us tonight. Tom, thanks very much.
Coming up, a generation of dropouts. A new study shows today's 20-somethings don't pray, don't read the bible, don't go to church. So whose fault is it? Mary Matalin and Roland Martin face off in tonight's "M2." That next.
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BROWN: Time now for "M2," featuring our powerhouse team of Mary Matalin and Roland Martin. They are here, as always, with their unique take on some of the day's hottest stories. Take it away, guys.
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Campbell, we finally had some bipartisan agreement on Capitol Hill today. The Senate called up Goldman Sachs executives and the bipartisan agreement is, well, let's just hear what John McCain had to say here. He articulated both sides of the aisle on this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: There is no doubt their behavior was unethical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATALIN: That's a pretty big swath.
ROLAND MARTIN, CCN POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, absolutely.
MATALIN: I'll tell you what was unethical is this clown show today. What did these guys think they were accomplishing? Do they think the public is going to be satisfied with a fake spanking of all of Wall Street?
MARTIN: Well, obviously in terms of it's always a sideshow, but I will say this, Mary. The reality is we are living in a society that is focused about decadence, that's all about greed. I mean, Wall Street boils down to quarterly earnings reports. And it's about how much money you can make.
Here's what's amazing. It's no longer, Mary, about what's right or wrong. It's really about what's legal and illegal. And so I think it speaks to the moral bankruptcy of so many folks in this country.
MATALIN: Well, if it's legal, if you're objecting to greed and decadence, that is still legal. You either have to have a legal/illegal --
MARTIN: I got you.
MATALIN: -- bifurcation which is what the Congress should be about, or anybody can opine about what is greed and what is decadence. Capitalism is just capitalism. It needs transparency. It needs to not have opaque instruments of financial destruction. That's what you're dealing with.
MARTIN: She also don't like -- like a CEO picking up $69 million in compensation when they're sitting here laying millions of folks off across the country. So that's part of the problem there as well. So, again, as you can tell I think our cultures, our values --
An interesting survey came out by LifeWay Research which is the arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, Mary, showing that some 72 percent of millennials say that they are more spiritual than religious. And so, obviously, this is of concern to folks in the church.
MATALIN: Well, you know, Roland, we're both pretty spiritual and religious. And I'm not confident that the church attendance and religiosity are correlative. For instance, this people, who young people may be pulling away from church attendance, I'm sure they go to the church to get married. I'm sure they go to the church to baptize their children when they start having them.
MARTIN: Right.
MATALIN: So the connection between attendance and spirituality or religiosity is just a factor of that time of their life, I think. I won't get too disturbed.
MARTIN: Also, I think the question is also, you know, trust in big institutions. The second thing, though, look, look at September 11th, 2001. All these -- you know, look, churches and mosques, the synagogues were full of people. So what happens is when people get in trouble, when they lose a job or when they get sick, oh, they will run, you know, to a church in a heartbeat. And so, it speaks to how people look at it.
I work in many newsrooms, the people say I don't go to church. But trust me, when something happens in their life, then they want to pray with you.
MATALIN: That's what my mama used to say. No atheist in a foxhole. And there's plenty of people at church at Easter.
All right, and that's with our churches. Something that's become a religion for some people in this country and that's being fat police, obesity police. I told you this is a slippery slope.
We now want to, in Santa Clara, I believe it is, dictate that children cannot have "happy meals." We're going to outlaw "happy meals" because it's encouraging kids to eat unhealthy food. So we're turning our kids into neurotics and we're turning our parents into children.
MARTIN: Right. Actually that's the problem. And the supervisor there wants to outlaw the toys, saying that's driving it.
MATALIN: That's not right.
MARTIN: But here's the problem with that, Mary. The parent has an opportunity. When my nieces and my nephews are taken to, you know, these fast food restaurants, we don't order the fries. We order the apples. We don't get the soda, we get the water. And so you don't have to get rid of the toy. The toy is not the problem. That food, that's the problem, especially if you're going there four and five times a week. That's a dumb thing.
MATALIN: You know, you're always in the end agreeing with me without using the lingo, which would be heresy for you, which is common sense and parents and people should have more opportunity to govern themselves, and they'll do the common sense right thing.
MARTIN: Right.
MATALIN: And you start telling officials that they're going to take away happy meal toys --
MARTIN: Oh, yes.
MATALIN: -- we have really come a far, bad way.
MARTIN: Restaurants present great food options, alternative food options, but keep the toys. So that's what we look at. So we all like our toys, even us adults.
All right, Campbell, back to you.
BROWN: Thanks, guys.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Larry, what do you have tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": I'm going to open up a restaurant with unhappy meals. Let's try it.
Michael Moore is with us. He's going to talk about, guess what, Goldman Sachs, immigration, Sarah Palin, tea parties, the American auto industry, health care, probably more. Michael Moore for the hour, with your calls, next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few minutes.
Coming up next, the first lady's brother getting personal. Craig Robinson goes on the record about life for the first couple before the White House. That coming up.
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BROWN: We end tonight with an insider's look at the Obama family. In a new book out this week, Craig Robinson writes about growing up with his little sister Michelle. Long before she became first lady, they shared a bedroom on Chicago's South Side.
Today, Robinson is the men's basketball coach at Oregon State University. And in his book, "A Game of Character," he mixes coaching advice with a very personal glimpse at becoming the first family. And here he is tonight in his own words. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CRAIG ROBINSON, AUTHOR, "A GAME OF CHARACTER": My name is Craig Robinson. I'm the head basketball coach at Oregon State University. And I'm the big brother of Michelle Obama.
Our family was a lot like most families growing up. There were parents who were trying to make a better life for their kids. In high school, I would probably be what is today considered a nerd. And my sister knew that. So when it was time to go to dances and sock hops and things of that nature, she made sure that I wouldn't embarrass myself. I mean, she spent time with me, teaching me how to talk to girls, how to dance, how to fit in socially.
Yes, you know, there is the often told story of my sister asking me to bring Barack to play basketball to see what kind of personality he has. Because she grew up in the same household as I did, hearing my father talk about how you can tell a person's real personality by playing pickup basketball. And we played here. He did well. He was -- he was a very good pickup basketball player. He was unselfish. He acted with high integrity.
My sister, for the longest time, I mean, and it probably was from the time she went to school was always known as Craig Robinson's little sister. As you can imagine now, that she's the first lady, I am considered Michelle Obama's older brother. And I couldn't be happier about that.
You know, the only thing that I worry about that I know they worry about is having some kind of normal part of their life. And we try and help that out by visiting when we can. You know, people always think that, you know, I go over to their house we have dinner and we're talking about health care or we're talking about Afghanistan. That doesn't happen. We talk about what we talked about when they lived in Chicago and we lived in Chicago. How are the kids doing. Normal family stuff.
When I was contemplating writing "A Game of Character," I was trying to understand in my own mind what makes someone memorable, like my father, like my mother. And it all boils down to character. And "A Game of Character" is a love letter to my parents whose life lessons resonate not only with me at the dinner table, but on the basketball court, in the ball field, in the boardroom.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that, again, was Craig Robinson talking about the first family.
That does it for us tonight. Thanks very much for joining us. You can follow me on Twitter. Go to our website. We want to hear from you. But right now, it's all about Larry King.
