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CNN Larry King Live

Oil Slick is 120 Miles Wide; Is Arizona's Immigration Law Too Tough?

Aired April 29, 2010 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): Tonight, battle on the border. The growing rage. Pro and cons. Spawned by Arizona's tough new immigration law.

GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like.

KING: Are Hispanics unfairly targeted? Can the law be enforced? Could backlash ruin the state's economy?

Governor Bill Richardson and former attorney general Alberto Gonzales tear into the issue. Let's get ready to rumble next on LARRY KING LIVE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: We begin first with breaking news. An oil slick the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined is perilously close to the gulf shore. It may well eclipse the Exxon Valdez disaster.

A well that ruptured more than a week ago is responsible. And efforts to put -- to shut it down had failed. The slick covers as much as 600 square miles of water.

Let's get more from CNN weather anchor Chad Myers. Chad?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Larry, it really is a mess today because the winds shifted direction. They're now out of the southeast blowing this oil, this sludge, into the bayous of southeastern Louisiana. Well, south of New Orleans but into that little point that is the delta of New Orleans.

Here is the map. Here is the brown area where the oil is. The source there, obviously still coming out. Yesterday, we found out about this time that there were not only 1,000 barrels coming out per day -- that's about 42,000 gallons -- but there were maybe 5,000 barrels coming out. That's almost 200,000 gallons of oil coming out per day.

So here it is, right on the shore of Louisiana today. Farther back up towards Biloxi by Saturday into Mobile Bay by Sunday. And then maybe as far east as Pensacola. The good news right now the oil that is coming on shore is almost tar ballish (ph). It's been in the water a very long time so they're coming out as kind of like balls of tar, if you would.

Then the next layer of stuff that comes on shore is going to be more like mayonnaise because it's not going to be in the water as long, not going to evaporate as long. And then the devastating thing is that water and the oil that comes on shore as liquid like the Exxon Valdez, the animals get in this.

It's plankton all the way to the river otter problem. We may not know about how many animals died from this. This is basically the fishery of the Gulf of Mexico right here, and we will be killing plankton and what eats the plankton and what eats the shrimp and all the way up the food chain.

This is going to be one that we don't want to think about. This is going to be a very, very difficult, difficult couple of days for those people down there.

KING: Great job, Chad. Is this a weather story? Quickly, is it a weather story?

MYERS: It was a weather story today because the wind was responsible of it coming back up and blowing that oil into the -- into the bayou. For the last couple of days, it was blowing it away and it was doing OK. Today that weather changed.

KING: Thanks, Chad Myers, as always right on top of things.

Now we go on to the Arizona immigration issue. Chief Joe Martinez joins us. He's the chief of police of Kearny, Arizona. He joins us from the town of Nogales, that's on the Mexican border in Arizona.

What's your view of this new law, Chief?

CHIEF JOE MARTINEZ, KEARNY, ARIZONA POLICE: Hi, Larry. Actually, the new law is not going to change a whole bunch in Arizona. These are a set of laws that kind of parallel what we've got. And I think you've got a lot of people that are reacting to hype and I think we need to have more reality and less rhetoric in this. And I think we're all going to be just fine.

KING: What's the situation where you are? Is that a big entry point there?

MARTINEZ: Actually, my town runs off of Highway 177. And it has become a more and more popular thoroughfare for smugglers of both drugs and human smugglers that go through our area.

And that I think is what's being missed in all this, is that many of the vehicles that go through our area are loads of those illegal immigrants and narcotics. And those are the areas that we want to focus on here in Arizona. We're not -- as some have unjustifiably suggested -- going to stop anyone who may be Hispanic and shake them down to find out if they're in the country legally so I think -- go ahead, I'm sorry, Larry.

KING: The law requires that law enforcement officials who have a reasonable suspicion someone's an illegal alien to make a reasonable attempt to determine the status. How does a law enforcement officer define reasonable suspicion?

MARTINEZ: I'll tell you something. And I covered an example of this just a couple of days ago in a traffic stop that happens in our area off and on. You may make a traffic stop at 3:40 a.m. from what appears to be a vehicle with a lone driver in it.

And then when you get up to that vehicle, you shine your light into that vehicle and there's 10 more people who are hiding inside the vehicle who all have backpacks, carrying a great deal of water.

Those are the circumstances. So the hype of racial profiling is unfounded. We're not going to profile off of any kind of racial status. It's the circumstances that lead someone to believe that there's a reason to check that status.

And the example I just gave you -- that's a great example of how it comes into play when you see people who are hiding. We're not going to go and stop someone that we see in our local restaurant or our local store and happen to ask them when we run across them in the store what their status is.

It's in the investigation of crime. So not a whole lot's going to change at all for law enforcement in terms of how we do business based on this new law. It's basically a charging for Arizona is all.

KING: Thanks, Chief. We'll be checking with you again.

The debate rages on. And we will referee after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joining us now, comedian Carlos Mencia. Carlos was born in Honduras, raised in east L.A., became a naturalized U.S. citizen last year.

And Sheriff Joe Arpaio -- Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona. He's coming -- he returns to our cameras. He's been called the toughest sheriff in America.

All right, Carlos, what's your serious problem with this law?

CARLOS MENCIA, COMIC, BECAME U.S. CITIZEN LAST YEAR: Well, first of all, I am not carpooling in Arizona, I'll tell you that right now.

Well, the basic problem with the law is -- and here's the way I see it. I'm not defending illegal aliens. I'm defending Americans. I think that if you pull over Americans like myself because I happen to be speaking Spanish in my car, or because I happen to have 10 family members who look like me in my car, that's a violation of civil rights.

And I completely understand why officers like this law, because of course it makes it easier for them to do their job. But it would be easy to just ask black kids, hey, you know what? Show me your drugs because you're wearing sagging pants.

It would be easy to -- you know put everybody who's white between the ages of 18 and 50, you know, hey, we've got serial killers on the loose, you fit the profile.

It would be easy to profile everybody but this isn't right.

KING: Sheriff -- let's say it's midnight, Sheriff. Six Mexican- Americans are driving in a car through a street in your city. Are they stopped?

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Well, we're doing our crime suppression operation. You can see me being out in this windy weather. But we -- in two hours, we have stopped four vehicles for human smuggling, arrested 36 people for violating that law that are here illegally.

So we have the reason to do that. We have the probable caution. We've done 2,000 and courts upheld every one of those cases. So we're not out there grabbing people on a street corner because they look like they're from another country. We do it pursuant to our normal operations.

KING: Carlos, what's wrong with, bluntly put, being asked? As long as you're OK, so you're asked, are you a citizen, prove it? So what?

MENCIA: It's -- it's that this is what we used to make fun of back in the days of Russia. We fought a Cold War because of this. We used to make jokes about, you know, show me your papers.

That's just not the country that we as Americans have ever wanted to live in. We live in a country that's based more on keeping people out of jail than putting innocent people in jail.

And if they arrest illegal immigrants, that's -- I don't have a problem with that. My problem is when they ask me for papers. When they ask me what I'm doing. You know, what if I'm there for Cinco de Mayo and I happen to be wearing the hat and the maracas just celebrating that moment? And I get asked to show my paper as an American?

That's just why I became an American. And I think that's --

KING: Sheriff --

MENCIA: That's un-American.

KING: Sheriff, who is stopped? Give me a prototype of who you stop.

ARPAIO: Well, you know, let me say this about the identification. We ask everybody for their ID, their driver's license, in the course of our duty. Nothing unusual about that. We ask them. You know where were you born, your date of birth? So this happens every day in law enforcement. This case --

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Someone is speeding or passes a red light, but what do you stop people just indiscriminately?

ARPAIO: No. No, we do not do that. We don't take people off the street corners or go into residences and businesses. We don't do that. We have a state charge first and then we develop to see if people are here illegally.

KING: So, Carlos, how's that different from any other law breaker or potential law breaker?

MENCIA: Well, if they ask me for my I.D., which, by the way, there have been times when I forgot my wallet at home, they just write me a ticket for driving without the driver's license.

KING: Right.

MENCIA: But they don't ask me to prove that I'm an American. And we're talking about now, you know, getting pulled over or committing a crime. That's fine. But that's not what the law says. The law basically states that in any legal encounter.

So I might, you know, be somewhere where the cops are and they can ask me. It's any legal encounter. It doesn't necessarily mean that a criminal act has to be committed when this occurs.

The officers can during a legal encounter do this. Now if they don't, that's one thing. But the law allows them to. And the law allows them to do it under suspicion. Now I would be better off with the law that says, hey, look, if you're wearing pointy boots and a hat, and two tacos and a Morocco, we think you're an illegal.

At least that would be specific. But this law, it actually brings into account a human being's prejudices, what they bring to the table, what they grew up with, what they think is an illegal.

So here's what I'm saying. If you have a guy that's Mexican- looking, Latino-looking, and he's wearing a hat and pointy boots and a thick belt, that guy might look illegal. But you put that same attire on a white guy and he's a red neck, and you're not going to ask him for his papers.

KING: I'm going to have the sheriff --

MENCIA: That is what's wrong with the law.

KING: We'll have the sheriff comment on that when we come back. And by the way, still ahead, former attorney -- I'll have your response in a minute, sir. Former attorney general Alberto Gonzales, Governor Bill Richardson will weigh in on all of this in a little while. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Sheriff Arpaio, doesn't this put a lot of burden on the police officer?

ARPAIO: No. They're well trained. They know how to enforce all the laws. I don't think it does. Just another law to enforce here. And this new law just gives a little extra tool especially to my guys that have been enforcing the federal and state illegal immigration laws for three years.

Now if you come across someone here illegally, you now have the authority to arrest that person on a misdemeanor charge and book them into the jail versus turning them over to the U.S. government.

KING: And that's better law enforcement in your opinion than turning them over?

ARPAIO: Yes. Yes. You know if they violate the law, they should go to jail. That's going to be my policy when the law takes effect. We have 38,000 people we've investigated, arrested. They are detained in our jails. Thirty-eight thousand that are here illegally.

Right now and in this area we have 100 people in jail right now charged with murder that are here illegally. So you do have crime associated with the illegal aliens coming into our country.

KING: When does the law take effect, Sheriff?

ARPAIO: It takes effect about 90 days from probably today.

KING: All right, Carlos, how do you respond to that?

MENCIA: Well, you know, that's -- first of all, the police chief from earlier said that this law really doesn't change anything. If it doesn't change anything, then why the law in the first place? Look, as I said --

ARPAIO: It does change.

MENCIA: Well, then if it does change, then he misspoke. But what I'm saying is, look, if you're going to arrest --

ARPAIO: No, it does change.

MENCIA: OK. If you're going to arrest illegal aliens, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with you doing whatever you need to do to clean up your state.

I'm not there. You know, I have a brother who lives there. He tells me about the violence. He tells me about violence by illegal immigrants.

I get all that. I just don't want you to trample on my rights or any American rights to do so.

KING: But, Carlos --

MENCIA: I know it makes it easier. But that's not cool.

KING: How do you -- Carlos, how do you know someone is an illegal alien unless you investigate?

MENCIA: Well, you -- but they -- there are already laws in the books to do this. And for me this is -- the biggest problem, not with this bill, but with America in general is, we as Americans are employing these illegal immigrants. If we didn't give them jobs, they wouldn't be here.

This problem isn't really an illegal immigrant problem. It's really an American problem. We're giving these people work. You know why there aren't -- they don't have an illegal immigration problem in El Salvador? Even though it's bordering Mexico? Because Mexicans aren't going to El Salvador. Because there's no work there.

If there was no work here, they wouldn't be here. We're giving them work. We're doing that. And this is an us problem. I think we need to fix that problem --

KING: You agree with that, Sheriff?

MENCIA: -- from our perspective.

ARPAIO: Well, you know, first of all, Carlos, they violated the law by crossing the border, coming into this area. We go into businesses and all the illegals, the majority, are there working, but they have phony identification, which is another violation of the law.

So we enforce the laws. They're taking up jobs, by the way, Carlos. We have an economic problem here. People would do anything to get a job. Yes, we're giving these jobs to people that are here illegally and that's not right. That's not right. Come here legally.

MENCIA: I agree.

KING: All right, hold it guys.

(CROSSTALK)

MENCIA: I agree but --

KING: We have --

MENCIA: But when you said we, those are people who are committing a crime as well. People are not supposed to employ illegal immigrants or -- you know people that don't have papers.

KING: All right, we're just touching -- (CROSSTALK)

MENCIA: They should be targeted more than anything.

KING: -- the surface here. All right, thank you. Carlos Mencia --

MENCIA: Because we do that. We do that.

ARPAIO: We do that.

KING: -- and Sheriff Joe Arpaio. All right, we'll be -- you'll be on again, you guys. Got to move on to other guests.

How does the -- how does the new law look from downtown L.A.? We're going to go live to Olvera Street and find out next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, BUSINESS TYCOON: You have a lot of great people coming in, doing a lot of work, and I'm not so sure that a lot of other people are going to be doing that work. So it is a very tough problem.

But I do say this, you have a law or at least you have to establish a law, and I guess we're sort of a country -- and other people aren't supposed to be coming into a country illegally.

KING: So you would not favor a boycott of any kind?

TRUMP: No, I would not favor a boycott.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That was Donald Trump talking about Arizona's new anti- illegal immigration law on last night's LARRY KING LIVE.

The new law generating lots of -- and it's not just people in Arizona who have strong feelings about it.

Carlos Diaz is a syndicated radio host and entertainment reporter, first generation America, son of a Cuban immigrant. He joins us from Olvera Street in downtown L.A.

What are people saying there?

CARLOS DIAZ, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: You know, it's tough to find anyone who's actually in support of this bill down here, Larry. And it's got emotions running hot. And I could tell you right now, yes, you mentioned my father who's a Cuban immigrant.

I talked to him just before I came on. And, you know, he came to this country in 1962 from Cuba as part of the Peter Pan program and became an American citizen in 1968. I asked him what he thought of the bill. And he told me, you know, he's a big baseball fan.

And he said, you know, what if I go to Arizona to see the Diamondbacks play and I'm at my hotel and I go to the game and I forget my I.D.? I've been an American citizen for 42 years. Yet I speak with a Spanish accent and look very Spanish. What happens to me if I'm stopped without my proof of identification on me?

So, obviously, a lot of people are not too supportive of this. I talked to several people from Mira Costa College, faculty and students who were down here in Los Angeles.

And we talked earlier. You have some strong sentiments about this Senate bill and it becoming a law.

FREDDY RAMIREZ, COUNSELOR, MIRA COSTA COLLEGE: Yes, I do. I'm completely against it. I think that anytime you have a law that gives so much power to the state and singles out a group, it's dangerous and it sends the wrong message to the community.

I myself am an immigrant. I came in 1985 to the United States. And since then, I've earned a high school education. I have a bachelor's degree and two master degrees. And I'm working in a doctorate degree.

And all of it comes from the support that I felt from family and the community. And that is how you get people to be successful. And the message we're sending out to the immigrant community especially the Latino community is wrong and it's going to impact our youth.

And so I want to make sure that I state that I'm completely against this law.

DIAZ: And as a doctor at Mira Costa College what do you say to your students when they look to you and say, you know, how can this be close, you know, to becoming a law once it passed the Senate?

EDWARD PUHLERT, FACULTY DIRECTOR, MIRA COSTA COLLEGE: Well, my students are asking, aren't there more immigrants than us? My Latino students that I work with.

I myself am an immigrant. And this law's outrageous because it really sanctions human rights violations. There's no way to profile people -- I myself am an immigrant. And if I go to Arizona, will they look at me as Latino? I'm not. I'm Dutch and Indonesian. But I'm a target. And so I really reject this bill.

DIAZ: All right. Well, Larry as you can see, down in Los Angeles, we have several opinions and most of them are not in favor of Senate bill 1070. Larry?

KING: And we'll be checking back with you later, Carlos. Hang around.

Governor Bill Richardson and Alberto Gonzales are here to take on this debate. Is Arizona's new immigration law in their opinion unconstitutional or not? Next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Governor Bill Richardson is the Democratic governor of New Mexico. He joins us from Santa Fe. Alberto Gonzales served as United States Attorney General for President George W. Bush. He's a visiting professor at Texas Tech University, joining us from Lubbock. I believe, General Gonzales, this is the first time you've spoken out publicly about this law. What's your take?

ALBERTO GONZALES, FMR. UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you know, Larry, we have a great country because of a diversity that flows from immigrants, quite frankly. I think that racial profiling is wrong. It is wrong because it's unlawful. But it's also wrong because I think it runs counter to the very essence of our country.

I'd ask you whether or not this law constitutes racial profiling. I think that remains to be seen, quite frankly. I'm concerned, like everyone else, about the vagueness of the law, and about the discretion given to law enforcement. But if we set aside this law because of concerns for potential abuse, that would be an argument for setting aside a host of laws, virtually every tool given to law enforcement, because of potential abuse.

I think we need to see what Arizona does in terms of guidance, in terms of promulgating regulations to explain how this discretion is to be exercised, and then I think we're in a much better position to determine whether or not this is unlawful racial profiling.

KING: Governor Richardson, what's your response to that?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Well, I know the attorney general is acknowledging the potential of racial profiling. I think it's going to lead to racial profiling. I think this law's unconstitutional. My hope is the Justice Department, the Obama administration, contests it on the ground that you have state/local law enforcement trying to enforce a federal law.

Immigration is federal. It's very clear. And what this is going to do is not just lead to racial profiling, but you're also having other states like Alabama, like Minnesota, like Georgia, just in the last few days, contemplate similar laws. It's going to be increasing a lot of tension among the Hispanic community in this country.

You know 30 percent -- I notice Carlos, his family -- 30 percent of Arizonians are Hispanic. And if you're dark completed or if you're going to an Arizona Diamondback game, a police officer can come up and talk to you on the grounds that you look suspicious, and ask you for your papers. That is clearly racial profiling. And I believe that's going to happen. So I hope that this law is struck down.

KING: General, if you were the current attorney general, would you attack it before the Supreme Court?

GONZALES: Well, I think we have to look at a number of things. I think the governor is correct. I think you need to look to see whether or not has the federal government preempted this field. So I think it is an open question as to whether or not Arizona can even legislate in this area. And that is something obviously the Department of Justice is looking at. And that is what we would be looking at.

Let me just say this, with respect to racial profiling, if you can show me that the intent of this law is to facilitate racial profiling, or that it results systematically in racial profiling, then I'll be the first in line to condemn it. All I'm saying is I'd like to see what Arizona is going to do to address the issue of vagueness, to reassure the people of Arizona that we've got a law that's effective and a law that also doesn't result in racial profiling.

KING: All right, I'm going to take a break and have Bill Richardson respond to the statement by the former attorney general, basically which is "let's see how it works." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: All right, Governor Richardson, the former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said let's see how it works. As we look, by the way, at the border in Nogales, Arizona, downtown Olvera Street in Los Angeles. What about giving it a chance, governor?

RICHARDSON: I don't think that's practical or realistic or the right thing to do, Larry. I think what we need to do is test the constitutionality of this law. I don't think it's going to stand up because this is a federal responsibility. You're going to cause enormous tension among the Hispanic community in America.

I think what we need to do is have the Homeland Security Department, instead of in Arizona overseeing this problem. They should go after drug criminals, big criminals. And what we need -- and I give credit to the Bush administration for having done this, and now the Obama administration for pushing it -- is federal comprehensive immigration, a legalization plan, where it's earned. There's accountability.

Secondly, verification of workers. And, third, more border security, more National Guard, more border patrol, more technology on the border. We have drug cartels. We have violence on the border. I experience it right next to Governor Brewer in Arizona. But let's take the law into our own hands and do something that is not only going to work, but is going to violate our country's human rights. That's my view.

KING: General, the Democrats offered a new proposal today. Do we need a tougher federal law?

GONZALES: Larry, let me clarify one point. I'm not saying let's see how it works as much as I'm saying that I'm not sure you can mount a successful court challenge as to racial profiling without seeing how the law is implemented. I think you can immediately challenge as to whether or not Arizona has even the right to legislate in this field. Again, I worry that a successful court challenge might not succeed without seeing how this law is implemented in Arizona. Now, with respect to the federal law, I think it's high time for the federal government to pass legislation to deal with immigration. In a post-9/11 world, we need to know who's entered this country and why -- we need a policy that's consistent with our economic policy and immigration policy consistent with our national security policy, including many of the things Governor Richardson just talked about.

KING: Governor, isn't it the federal responsibility in this?

RICHARDSON: Yeah, it is totally, Larry, because what we're trying to do -- and what we should try to do is pass a law that brings more border control, more border technology, National Guard. We also have to have a verification system for workers. You have to deal with employers that illegally hire workers.

Then most importantly, I think as the attorney general said, what are you going to do with the 11 million undocumented workers in America today? You can't throw them out. Many of them are contributing to the economy. But if there are those that, for instance, do not pass a background check -- I think they should all speak English, they should all get in back of the line for those that are trying to get here legally.

Those I think are the criteria that we should use, not give them citizenship. I think that would be wrong. But an earned legalization. Then you have a level playing field. I think, Larry, you have to do all three at the same time. I think that the proposals from the Congress, first border security, then legalization, it's not going to work. You have to do it simultaneously.

KING: Didn't the Bush administration pretty much propose that, what Governor Richardson just said?

GONZALES: We tried, Larry. President Bush understood that in order to get part of the package, it would have to get passed all at one time. Of course, he was unsuccessful in doing that. I think what's being lost in all the debate about what's going on in Arizona is the fact the federal government has failed. The federal government has a responsibility to deal with the immigration issue. And they -- and the federal government has failed today in addressing it.

I agree with many of the points made by Governor Richardson. I know one point that I disagree with many of my Republican friends, with respect to the 13 million to 15 million undocumented aliens in this country. Some believe they need to leave the country before any consideration of legalization in the future. I'm not sure that's practical. We had many discussions about this in the Bush administration. There was serious doubt as to whether or not that was even practical.

We need a policy that will work. And those kinds of notions I think while it may have some merits and benefits, again, it's about -- it's about looking at a policy, passing a policy that is effective and one that is efficient.

KING: We'll have more ahead in this very intelligent discussion on a very emotional topic. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: We're back with Governor Bill Richardson and former Attorney General Gonzales. We'll get back to their discussion. First, let's check in again with Carlos Diaz on downtown L.A.'s famous Olvera Street for more opinions about the new law.

DIAZ: Larry, in all honesty, we were trying to find people who actually are in support of this new law and new bill. We've had some difficulties, to be honest with you. A lot of people we talked to are very emotional about this, are against it. We have some students here from MiraCosta College. We have an English professor, Dr. John Kerwin (ph). We talked earlier. This is something that affects you as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does. Many of my students have come to the country recently. And the work that I do is to help them adjust to the challenges of this country. Arizona's our neighbor. So we're rather close. I know it's a concern for our students.

But I think, like the border fence, I like this is going to be another futile gesture against change that's inevitable. And ultimately, I think really our challenge is how to find creative ways to embrace the future. And that future means a lot of change for this country.

DIAZ: Are your students, when you talk to them, are they outraged by this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are. I think they're affected personally. Many of them have family that have been affected by immigration policy. And it's made adjusting to this country extremely difficult. So part of what our work is, is to try to stabilize their situations, to provide them with the tools to move forward in this society, to give them the American dream.

DIAZ: Thank you, I really appreciate it. Downtown L.A., the emotions are running very high about this bill.

KING: Thank you, Carlos Diaz, downtown Los Angeles. Let's take a call for Governor Richardson and General Gonzales. Sierra Vista, Arizona, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry. This is Bob.

KGIN: Yeah, what's your question?

CALLER: I have the utmost respect for Governor Richardson and Mr. Gonzales. I live in Arizona, Cochese County. We had a rancher killed here. I'm a white Anglo Saxon Protestant. Ever since 9/11, when I travel, I have to go through security checks in an airport. I don't feel that that's violating my constitutional rights or I'm being discriminated against. We're just trying to protect the safety of our country. And that's what we're trying to do in Arizona with this law. We're trying to protect our citizens.

KING: Governor?

RICHARDSON: Well, look, I respect that gentleman a lot. Cochese County is right next to New Mexico. And that rancher had ties to New Mexico, who was killed. There's border violence. There are cartels coming in, drugs coming in. The answer, I believe, is not to take the law into your own hands and discriminate against potentially anybody that looks Hispanic that might be an immigrant from Mexico.

The answer is, in Arizona, as it is in my borders, we need some help. We need more National Guardsmen. We have some. I deployed 35 recently. We need more border patrol. We need more technology at the border. I agree, we don't need a fence. You build a 10-foot fence, you'll have 11-foot ladders. That's not going to work.

I think, at the same time, we should look at immigration as not just affecting Hispanics or people coming from Mexico. If you reform our legal immigration laws, that feed that, too, it affects Europeans. It affects Central Americans. It affects Haitians. It affects all of us, Larry.

KING: I have to get a break and then we'll have a response from General Alberto Gonzales.

Now, our CNN Hero of the Week. At the busy border between India and Nepal stands a woman stand committed to stopping any age-old industry that today has become increasingly lucrative and dangerous, the kidnapping and trafficking of women and girls. From Nepal to brothels in India, Anuradna Koirala leads these raids, intercepts kidnappings, and prosecutes pimps and rehabilitates. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANURADNA KOIRALA, CNN HERO: If someone comes and says, I want to make your child a prostitute, they would shoot them. But here families, they are tricked all the time. The border between India and Nepal, it is the conduit point of trafficking. Once they are alone, there is no way to escape.

I am Anuradna Koirala. It is my strong hope to stop every Nepali girl from being trafficked.

When we go to the border, we are intercepting call girls. After the rescue, the girl is taken back. They are totally psychologically broken. We give them whatever work they want to do, whatever training they want. There is always a small scar. But today I'm something new in my life. They are my strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Quite a lady. You want to nominate someone changing the world? Visit CNN.com/Heroes. Right back with General Gonzales and Governor Richardson after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: General Gonzales, how do you react to the caller who brings up what happened at airports? Are airports different than Arizona?

GONZALES: Well, listen, I'm all in favor of security at our airports. I'm all in favor of securing our borders. I want to make one point, Larry, and I'm sure Governor Richardson agrees with this. Both he and I have met a lot of people in the law enforcement community. I would say 97 to 99 percent of them serve with integrity and good faith. I'm sure and confident that the law enforcement community in Arizona will implement this law in a way that meets the goals of the legislature.

I worry about racial profiling, no question about it. I also worry about the fact that we don't have federal comprehensive immigration policy. I worry about discrimination. But I also worry about the fact that laws are being ignored. I think disregard of the laws breeds further disobedience. That's not the America I know

KING: Let's take another call. Eugene, Oregon, hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. Thank you for taking my call. I'm against this law. Let's be honest about this one thing, Larry, no one is willing to admit the U.S. has a hunger for cheap labor. And who else is going to do that cheap labor other than illegal immigrants? If we get rid of the illegal immigrants, our economy will crash even more. Nobody is talking about that issue. I want to know why.

KING: Governor?

RICHARDSON: Well, look, there's no question that Medicare, Social Security buttressed by undocumented workers -- our economy, in a global economy, we need every possible person to compete. There's also a need for legal immigration reform, not just illegal, that allows us to bring more workers that are skilled.

I think the Obama administration is on the right path here, pushing the Congress, I think, like President Bush did, to pass comprehensive immigration. I think we need to do it this year, Larry, along with an energy bill, along with efforts to improve the economy. The Congress has -- we have eight months to go. Why can't they do all these things that need to be done before there's more tension, before other states take the law into their own hands? This is an important human rights issue for this country.

KING: General Gonzales, do you believe this might be an example that there is still, unfortunately, a lot of racism in America?

GONZALES: I believe that it still exists, Larry. We have an African-American president, an African-American attorney general. We've had a Hispanic attorney general. We just recently had an Hispanic justice on the Supreme Court. Nonetheless, we still need our civil rights law. There's still a need for the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice. It does exist.

I couldn't agree more with Governor Richardson about the need to have comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level today, not next year, but today. It is that important as far as I'm concerned. I said earlier that it needs to be consistent with our economic policy. I agree also with the Governor that it ought to include additional visas for skilled workers, additional visa for unskilled workers in those areas where Americans simply will not work, cannot work, or have no interest or desire in taking jobs in that area. And so, again, it's got to be comprehensive in order to be effective.

KING: We're running close on time. Governor, what do you think about boycotting Arizona?

RICHARDSON: I don't think that's a good idea. That hurts a lot of people in Arizona that don't agree with this law. It hurts some 100,000 Hispanics that depend on tourism. I think we need to do it constructively in the Congress with our laws. I'm not too crazy about boycotts, despite the fact that I think Arizona and its legislature made a huge mistake. They're our neighbor state, a good state. I don't believe that makes much sense to have economic boycotts

KING: Thirty seconds, general, what do you think of a boycott?

GONZALES: I don't see that that would be effective and really gain you much, Larry, quite frankly. I think this is a very emotional issue. Obviously, there are tough legal issues involved. Like many things, many disputes in our country, ultimately it's going to be resolved in the courts.

KING: Thank you both, very much, for a most interesting discussion, Governor Bill Richardson, General Alberto Gonzales.

Are space aliens out to conquer planet Earth? Steven Hawking, maybe the brightest person on the planet, thinks it's possible and we're going to talk about it tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE from Washington.

Right now, "AC 360" with Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay?