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Campbell Brown
Disaster in the Gulf; Arizona Law Changes
Aired April 30, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CNN Primetime begins right now.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. Campbell is off. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Two huge stories tonight. Both are breaking news stories. Here we go.
We've just learned the governor of Arizona has in fact signed the new law. What do we mean by new law? Well, today the state legislature stepped into the middle of this controversy, as I was just mentioning to John King.
They did something you may not have seen coming. They actually changed the wording of the law after many of us have been asking what exactly they meant by "lawful contact."
Now it's "lawful stop." I'm going to tell you what they did. I'm going to tell you why they did it.
Also we've got breaking news tonight along the Gulf Coast. Minute by minute that massive oil slick is moving closer to Louisiana's marshes. Experts say that it's already too late to prevent an environmental disaster. Too late to prevent it.
The only question now is just how bad is this thing going to be? Conditions in the gulf have been getting worse all day. This is a problem. The rough seas, they're pushing the oil over some of these barriers.
Oily booms that were meant to protect the coast are not doing their job, and the National Weather Service says this isn't going to let up all weekend.
But the real problem is the size of this oil slick, so big it's clearly now visible from space, and it's growing by 5,000 barrels every single day.
We have correspondents up and down the Gulf Coast in all the different states. But let's begin first with all the news of the day. This is "The Mash-Up."
The number one domestic story tonight, as it's been for the past week, is immigration. But with the controversy threatening to boil over nationwide, here is the Arizona legislature and what they've done. They've changed that key portion of the law.
Arizona's governor just signed it. Instead of cops being able to stop anyone they suspect of being here illegally, now they can only stop someone if that person is involved in a crime before they ask them questions.
Take it, Chris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: There have been some changes to that controversial Arizona immigration law. Just before wrapping up the session last night, state lawmakers agreed to toughen restrictions against using race or ethnicity as the basis for police questioning.
But another change would allow officers called to homes on city ordinance violations to ask about immigration status.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Republican governor Jan Brewer who signed the immigration law last week today told NBC affiliate KPNX her administration will defend the measure.
GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: We feel it's very constitutional, and we will push back, and we will fight it in the courts.
KATIE COURIC, CBS NEWS: Tomorrow rallies are planned in cities like Los Angeles, Dallas and New York to protest the law that empowers police to demand proof from anyone that he or she is in this country legally.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here is our top political story. The oil slick blame game. The secretary of Homeland Security, the secretary of the Interior, head of the EPA, all on the Gulf Coast tonight, along with 1900 federal personnel.
The Pentagon has now approved Governor Bobby Jindal's request for 6,000 National Guard troops.
This thing is getting big, and it's getting messy. But with landfall expected any time now, the finger-pointing has already begun. The White House mobilized its troops today to defend its response.
Listen now. This is David Axelrod. This is -- we begin with "Good Morning America." Go, Chris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Will this be Obama's Katrina should the federal and state governments have done more and earlier?
DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Well, this is always the case in Washington, that whenever something like this happens, the political speculation sets in. But the truth of the matter is that we had the Coast Guard on the scene almost immediately. DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: But the administration really is defending their actions.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And apparently trying to dodge the political ramifications of being tagged with blame.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: BP is ultimately responsible under the law. For paying the costs of response and cleanup operations. But we are fully prepared to meet our responsibilities to any and all affected communities.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The president sent three Cabinet members to the disaster zone. And ramped up pressure on British Petroleum.
AXELROD: No domestic drilling in new areas is going to go forward until there is an adequate review of what has happened here.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Our top international story is one that shocked just about everybody in our newsroom. This comes from China. We told you last night about this horrific string of attacks on school kids there. Armed assailants bursting into classrooms and targeting some innocent children.
It happened on Wednesday. Yesterday. Incredibly, happened again this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADRIENNE MONG, NBC REPORTER: Today's attack again early in the morning when a farmer on a motorcycle broke into a primary school in eastern China.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) media say a hammer-wielding assailant wounded five children at a preschool in Shandong province on Friday. He then dumped gasoline on himself and burned to death.
This is the third attack now on school children in China in as many days, and the fourth since early March.
JAIME FLORCRUZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The series of school attacks are blamed on suspects with personal grievances or mental illness.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Experts here warn that more copycat attacks could follow. And yes, local officials across cities in China are trying to step up security outside schools.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The story everybody is still buzzing about tonight is Goldman Sachs. The CEO Lloyd Blankfein took home $68 million while large chunks of the country's economy just crumbled.
He is not the least bit apologetic about it, by the way. Listen to what he tells CNN's Fareed Zakaria in an exclusive interview he did just a couple of hours ago that will air Sunday here on CNN on "GPS."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "GPS": 2007, in the midst of this terrible crisis, you made $68 million. What do you say to Americans who look at that and say -- and gasp.
LLOYD BLANKFEIN, CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: I think the gasps that were done for Wall Street were the gasps that were done for people who did not seem to earn the money that they were getting.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That, ladies and gentlemen, brings us to the "Punch Line." Did you see Rielle Hunter? She's John Edwards' mistress. She was on "Oprah Winfrey Show." It was funny. This, though, is even funnier. Chris?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": Did you see this today? John Edwards' mistress, Rielle Hunter, was on Oprah, talking about her affair. And then to honor her appearance, every audience member went home with someone else's husband. Under your chairs.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That is "The Mash-Up," and those are the stories that many Americans are talking about on this night.
Something else I need to tell you about tonight. Florida is declaring now a state of emergency. Louisiana just got clearance to activate the National Guard. All because of this oil spill catastrophe in the gulf, now washing up on the shores.
Meteorologist Chad Myers and a team of CNN correspondents all over the story. He joins me in just a couple of minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Tonight the massive oil spill in the gulf begins to reach the Louisiana coastline. The federal government is now pressuring BP to help and try and beef up this cleanup operation 5,000 barrels. That's 210,000 gallons of oil continue gushing out of the damaged well every single day.
Today President Obama ordered a thorough review of the accident as an inspection of all deep water oil rigs and platforms in the gulf begins. The White House has sent a team of top officials and agencies, the EPA, Homeland Security, Interior, Defense, even the Justice Department, all are there today.
And CNN has its own team of reporters on the scene. They're trying to blanket this story from all angles. And there are a lot of angles. The environmental impact, the devastating blow from fishing, tourism, and the $7 million a day battle just to try and stop the leak somehow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of whitecaps are kind of washing over the booms, and sometimes breaking them apart. So a lot of the coastline is still exposed.
RICHARD LUI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They've been moving a lot of those much-needed supplies to help stem the flow of that oil throughout the region. The protective booms that they've been putting out, 175,000 of them have already been deployed along parts of the Louisiana coastline and points further to the east.
SAMANTHA HAYES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They have seen the oil spill. They've seen how close it's getting to this area and other areas along the Gulf Coast. And they're extremely worried about this. This is their livelihood. This is how they make money.
BOB ABRUSCRATO, GULF COAST FISHERMAN: I never took any fish that I ever caught for granted or I tried not to. But, boy, these last couple of days of, you know -- you know, just -- just have to enjoy every one of them now.
MICHAEL WALLACE, FISHERMAN: This is what I do, you know. I love to do it. You know. To take this from me is just like, you know, not having anything.
TODD: We flew over the Bretton Island Wildlife Refuge where there are thousands of pelicans and seagulls nesting and gather there. No signs of oil there yet, but they -- we're told that it's creeping closer.
REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Right behind me you can see this leads all the way off to some grasses, natural lands, including the Delta National Wildlife Refuge, one of 10 that happen to be in the area.
And those are places that are very vulnerable to this spread of this oil. You've got over 400 species of animal that could be affected by this oil as it comes closer.
LUI: This area is really a dynamic, strong cultured sense of people in terms of what is here. They're used to hurricanes. They've got Gustav, Katrina, Ivan. They are used to those sorts of things. But with what the stories that we're reporting today, they've had to think twice about what could be coming in the next couple of days or weeks.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Chad Myers has been following this situation for us since it first developed.
Chad, we're looking at some video here, right? And it looks to me like we're finally seeing pictures of the oil slick approaching some of the shoreline. Now you told me yesterday this was like a preserve, just south of New Orleans. What are we seeing --
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Are these tar balls? Is this actual -- actually an oil slick? What's happening on the surface here?
MYERS: Well, what you see between the ship there -- the ship is running up a channel. That was the ship there. So we're seeing the islands on the -- in the sound, into Bretton Sound and all the way up to Bretton Island.
What you don't understand really about Mississippi and the Louisiana delta is that unless they have a barrier island, there is very little shoreline. It's just basically swamps, a marsh, and the bayou and some ditches.
And then about 20 miles inland, then you start to get some hard ground. Then you get the towns with roads like Venice, where all of our crews are. So what we're seeing is that the first wave of sheen, the first thin layer, like paper-thin layer, of oil today making its way into the southern part of the Mississippi delta.
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: Not where people live, but where the wild things are.
SANCHEZ: The obvious question then is, if this is the first phase or layer as you described it, what happens post this? You know, I can think of people along the Florida coastline, all the way down from Naples to Tampa, St. Pete, Pensacola, Biloxi, Mississippi, parts of Alabama.
Those are some of the most beautiful beaches in the world. Are they threatened in some way? Will they be?
MYERS: Yes. Unless they get it stopped, they will be threatened. They are doing a fantastic job with these dispersants, like the 409 product. But that's not what it really is. But they spray it on the oil. It breaks up the oil and it does down into the water then eventually organisms eat it up.
That's great. But they can't do it for everything and they can't keep doing this. They'll run out of it before we run out of oil coming out of the ground. That's the problem.
Let's go to this graphic. I want to show you where this slick is because this is kind of a telling story about where the oil slick is, where the leak is. There we go. We're going to come right in, we're going to zoom right down into the bayou. There you go.
That is the southern portion of Louisiana. That is where the Mississippi dumps into the Gulf of Mexico. That's the first town, Venice. Now the oil is not there yet. But here is Saturday. It's going to be moving on up.
This isn't a weather problem. The weather is going to continue to blow out of the southeast, and then out of the due south by Sunday, into Mobile and Pascagoula, Biloxi, Gulfport, Dauphin Island, all of those areas there. Those beautiful beaches that you just talked about.
And then towards Pensacola by Monday and Tuesday, that's its first approach to Florida. And that's what you see on the Gulf Coast. Beautiful, beautiful buildings, beautiful white sand beach. The beach you can't even imagine how white it is sometimes it's hard to look at.
SANCHEZ: Well, here is the real problem here. I'm hearing that this leak is not going to be contained any time soon. So this is not a tomorrow or a Sunday problem. This could be a problem for months and months. Correct?
MYERS: Correct. They have put their heads together and they have asked everyone, from Chevron to Unical and all those people, what can we do? What do you know that we don't know? Let's get our head together here.
They are going to try to stop the oil from coming out of the ground. It's almost artesian oil because there is so much pressure down there, the wells are still pumping oil out even without a pump to pump it up to the surface.
The water -- the oil is still coming out of the ground by itself. That's the problem. They're going to try to put something over that hole to stop it from coming out -- it would have to be very heavy -- or they're going to try to plug the hole itself.
And another thing that might take those months is drill another well all the way down to the 18,000 feet down to get to the oil and pump it out some other place to reduce the pressure. That's what's going to take months and months, if that's what we have to do.
SANCHEZ: The news is not good.
Chad Myers, thanks so much for taking us through it. We certainly appreciate it.
Here is the other big story that a lot of folks in America are talking about tonight. I kept asking these folks in Arizona, OK, what -- I'm looking at your law. I'm reading it here in front of me. And it says lawful contact.
What exactly does "lawful contact" mean? Does it mean any police officer sees anybody and they can stop them and ask them if they're illegals?
Well, it turns out that somebody else was asking this question because that has now been changed. We'll tell you how. We'll tell you why. We'll take you through with experts.
Also, have you seen the British debates? They're fighting over immigration over there. They're fighting over the Middle East. They're fighting over Wall Street reform. The same stuff that matters to all of us. But their debate seems to be a real argument, not orchestrated talking points.
You're going to see it for yourself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Ever since last Friday, many Americans have been perplexed by this immigration law in Arizona. Can they pull anybody over at any time? I mean, that's a lot of folks have been asking, right? What is an illegal immigrant actually look like? Another question that's been asked.
And of course the very first question that I was asking when I first started reading this bill, which seemed to be the term "lawful contact." What does "lawful contact" mean? I asked this Friday as soon as we found out about the bill itself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, I'm just wondering. As I go through this bill, I'm trying to figure out whether it really does what some in the media have been reported it to do. Look. I'm going to read right here, all right? I'm looking at it.
It says, line 20, page 1, "For any lawful act made by a law enforcement official, a reasonable attempt shall be made when practicable to determine the immigration status of that person."
Once again, "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official." Do you know what that means? Because I don't.
ALIA RAU: I think we're also trying to figure that one out. There is definitely very differing opinions as to what it may mean.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, obviously I was like a dog with a bone with this story, trying to figure out exactly what it meant, what did the governor mean when she came out the next day and she said I'm not sure what an illegal immigrant looks like, but I'm going to ask the "AZ Post," the police board there in Arizona to put out a description, which perplexed a lot of folks around the country as well.
Just from a constitutional point of view. But no one could answer that question. So lawmakers apparently got the message. And today they proposed some changes which the governor just moments ago -- we learned - has signed.
Now take a look at the original wording. That's the one I showed you before. That's the one that says -- right there -- for any lawful contact, that you just heard me read before. This was -- that was last Friday when I read it.
Reading it again. "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agent," and then it goes on to say what they would probably do.
Now let's go to the fix. The proposed fix changes lawful contact to, quote, "any lawful stop, detention, or arrest." Now that's a very important distinction, it would seem. The guy who wrote the law -- why is it an important distinction? Let me answer the question.
Because that means that they can ask people if they're legal immigrants or illegal immigrants who they have stopped in the commission of a crime. Not just somebody who happens to be walking down the street.
The guy who wrote the law, by the way, is Republican state senator Russell Pearce. I've talked to him many times about this. Here is what he is saying about the revisions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL PEARCE (R), ARIZONA STATE SENATE: It's simply a clarification. It's a better bill. There's not a bill passed that can't get better. I've never seen a bill perfect. You could always improve on anything. But we're going to just take the wind out of the sail of the ACLU, MALDEF and the far-left anti-American organization that continue to sue any time you want to enforce the law.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. Kris Kobach is probably going to have something to say about this. He helped draft the Arizona law and is now paid to train law enforcement there. He is also running for secretary of state in Missouri.
Welcome, sir.
KRIS KOBACH, HELPED WRITE AZ IMMIGRATION LAW: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Good to see.
KOBACH: It's actually Kansas, but that's OK.
SANCHEZ: What did we say?
KOBACH: I'm actually running in Kansas. But that's OK.
SANCHEZ: So I put you in Missouri?
KOBACH: That's all right. I'm actually sitting in Missouri right now.
SANCHEZ: There you go. Maybe that's why we got it -- well, we got it right now. It's Kansas, for the record. All right.
Let me bring in Alfonso Aguilar as well. He is the former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office.
Hey, Kris, I'm getting a sense, because you just heard what I said to the folks at home now. I've got a sense because I talked to the chief of Tucson, I talked to the chief in Phoenix. I talked to some of my buddies inside the department on the phone, not on the record.
As many guys as I talked to in Arizona, and I read them this law after I read it, it seemed to me they were uncomfortable with it. They didn't want to they say that to me, but it's like, you know, the way this thing is written, it almost makes it sound like they're asking me to do something I can't do.
I'm getting a feeling this thing went down to the cops. The cops shot it back up to these guys and said you got to change this for us. Am I wrong?
KOBACH: Well, I don't think it was exactly like that. But I think you are right that you and others said well, we aren't familiar with the term lawful contact. It's clear that the intent of the Arizona legislature was to limit this to investigations and stops for other crimes.
So a typical example would be a traffic stop. They did not want to give police the authority to just start randomly questioning people on the street.
And that, you know --
SANCHEZ: But that's what the law -- but that's -- to me, at least, to play fair here, the way I was reading it, it was leaving the impression that that's exactly what they could do.
KOBACH: Well, they used -- you know, they used the term of lawful contact. And, you know, they were intending that to mean contact in the enforcement of a law, a traffic stop pursuant to a belief that an individual is violating a traffic law, or an arrest pursuant to a belief that a person has violated some other law.
So, you know, they have clarified the language. You know typically we see what happens. We have to remember that this is a facial challenge, meaning the law hasn't gone into the effect yet.
SANCHEZ: Right.
KOBACH: Yet the ACLU and others are rushing to the courthouse. So they're going challenge this law without any actual experience or facts. And so it's very important that the judge have very clear language so the ACLU --
SANCHEZ: Well --
KOBACH: -- and others can't say well, here's what we think is going to happen and some --
SANCHEZ: But the problem is -- but, Kris, the problem is, it doesn't seem like there's any facts on either side. You've got the governor the other day essentially asked by a reporter what an illegal immigrant looks like, and she says, I don't know what one looks like, but I'm going to ask AZ Post and they're going to put out a description.
In fact I asked the AZ Post guy who was on the air with me the other day -- a good guy, by the way, a straight shooter.
Do we have that tape, Chris? Put that up if you could. Let's watch this together.
Mr. Aguilar, I'll bring you in that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you ask that question of her?
SANCHEZ: No, the question in it of itself seems judgmental.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's exactly my point. I think that's a good point for you to make.
SANCHEZ: Well, but then why did she try to answer it?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rick, that too is an unfair question.
SANCHEZ: Yes, because I'm putting you in a situation where you may have to criticize your own governor. And I don't want to do that to you. OK? So --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He kind of knew what we're getting at there. I mean it's almost like the governor was saying she was going to have AZ Post put out a description of what an illegal immigrant looks like. Ouch.
You also agree that that wouldn't have been right, correct?
KOBACH: Well, it wouldn't make legal sense because the illegal -- a person being unlawfully present in the country has no look. A person can be from any corner of the globe.
SANCHEZ: Thank you.
KOBACH: And beyond (INAUDIBLE). It's defined by conduct.
SANCHEZ: Right.
KOBACH: So your conduct might be that you're acting evasively, that you don't have any identification whatsoever, that you're on an alien smuggling corridor, and, you know, all other factors combined. But it has nothing to do with appearance.
SANCHEZ: You're very --
KOBACH: And indeed -- and I should mention this. The law also specifically says that race, ethnicity or national origin cannot be taken into account by officers.
SANCHEZ: It certainly does. You're absolutely right. I read that as well. That was at about page 19 after going through this.
Alfonso, let me bring you into this argument as well. Do you give them credit for going back and changing the law at this point, or do you think they still haven't gone far enough?
ALFONSO AGUILAR, FMR. CHIEF, U.S. CITIZENSHIP OFFICE: Well, I think clearly they try to modify the law to have a better chance to survive a legal challenge, a constitutional challenge in the courts.
But I think the language remains still very unclear. Regardless of how the detention or contact is made, the law enforcement official still has to generate reasonable suspicion that the person is illegally in the country, that the person may be undocumented.
Well, how do you do that? How do you -- to add reasonable suspicion, and that's what may generate to profiling and to discrimination. I have a problem with this law.
SANCHEZ: Well, this is interesting. This is interesting, because I should share with our viewers that -- you know, you heard Mr. Pearce a little while ago allude to all these lefties out there. These loony lefties who are going to challenge this thing. And they're, you know, this, that, and the other.
Well, Alfonso Aguilar is a Republican. He's a conservative Republican who votes Republican and served George W. Bush. And he's here to say that this law will not do any favors for Americans in general nor will it serve the interests of the conservative movement or the Republican Party.
Now we can talk a little bit about intent as well, and that's exactly what we plan to do. Open, honest conversation as soon as we come back.
Gentlemen, stay right where you are. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We learned within the last hour that the governor of Arizona has changed the original law which seemed to suggest that police officers could stop anyone and ask them about their legal status in the United States. Now it only says specifically that police officers can only ask people who they are stopping in the commission of a traffic stop or a crime, et cetera. So there's been a change in the law today.
Joining me is Kris Kobach who helped write the law and also Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office under George W. Bush.
Kris, do you worry about what's being said about Arizona, about the backlash, about the tone suggested about this law? You've got the Arizona Diamondbacks baseball team being protested everywhere they go. You've got talk of boycotts. You've got other governments criticizing Arizona. Do you think it's worth what Arizonans are going through to get this done based on the backlash that we're seeing on the other side?
KRIS KOBACH, HELPED WRITE AZ IMMIGRATION LAW: Well, most of the criticism and backlash is coming from people who actually haven't read the bill. I mean, for example, even the president of the United States said, oh, suddenly, people will be required to carry documentation. But actually, that's been a requirement of federal law for 70 years in the U.S. code.
You know, others have not read the bill and don't realize that there are expressed prohibitions against racial profiling. So I think what we're finding is that people are reading the bill now, realizing that it's not that extreme. It's not extreme at all.
SANCHEZ: But why is it necessary? If we already have federal officials who enforce this, and those federal officials, by the way, under the Obama as we understand have doubled and tripled along the border, I understand it's probably still not enough. But regardless, why do we need police to do the work or some argue usurp the jobs of the federal agents?
KOBACH: Well, there's certainly no usurpation of the jobs. The way this law works is that the Arizona law enforcement officers have to work hand in hand with federal law enforcement because they need verification from the federal government.
SANCHEZ: But why is it necessary? Why is it necessary?
KOBACH: Because if we really are serious about controlling illegal immigration that we want, what you have to do is you have to have attrition through enforcement, by ratcheting up the enforcement of the laws, having more eyes and ears, the force multiplier effect of local law enforcement. And we've already seen positive results. Arizona goes farther than any other law, any of our state in the union, in trying to add state and local help to federal efforts. And in between the period of summer 2008 and summer 2009, there was a net decrease nationwide of seven percent of illegal aliens in the United States.
SANCHEZ: I doubt it.
KOBACH: In Arizona, it was 18 percent.
SANCHEZ: But I can also --
KOBACH: More than double the number in Arizona, which means that the state and local efforts are having an impact.
SANCHEZ: I can also share statistics with you where crime had been significantly reduced between 2005 and 2008, which then begs the question, if crime is going down when there's more illegal immigrants in the state of Arizona, why do we need another law? But let me bring Alfonso into this now.
Alfonso, we were talking about the backlash. Should it matter? You know, Kris is sitting there saying, you know what, some of those folks who were giving us the backlash in Arizona and talking about this law, they haven't read the law. They don't know it. What do you say?
ALFONSO AGUILAR, FMR. CHIEF, U.S. CITIZENSHIP OFFICE: Well, frankly, it's not only what the law says, but the system, or circumstances that the law creates. It's what happens in practice. The law says that you can't profile based on race. But in practice, that's exactly what would happen.
Look, as a conservative, I'm really concerned about the message that we're sending the nation and that we're sending to the Latino community. I think it's time for conservatives -- (INAUDIBLE) immigration to go back to the premise of Ronald Reagan, freedom of opportunity, a free market and support an immigration plan, a market- based immigration plan that strengthens border security, but at the same time brings a mechanism to facilitate the legal (INAUDIBLE) of immigrant workers.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AGUILAR: The truth is that attrition enforcement doesn't work. I've worked with the Homeland Security Department for five years. You cannot secure the border exclusively with security measures. We need a guest worker program. At the root of this problem --
KOBACH: Can I get back on the subject?
SANCHEZ: Kris, let me just bring you back in to finish up because we're down to just 10 seconds. You have to close it down.
KOBACH: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead. Finish it up.
KOBACH: He says in practice that it will result in racial profiling. What he's saying is he doesn't trust the police. The people of Arizona do trust their police officers. They trust them to obey this law.
SANCHEZ: Do you trust Joe Arpaio? Do you trust Joe Arpaio?
KOBACH: I do trust Joe Arpaio.
SANCHEZ: How much?
KOBACH: I trust the officer to obey this law that says you can't racially profile. Our police officers, especially Maricopa County are doing a great job. I've seen them. I've been with them in actions. There are all kinds of reasonable suspicion factors.
SANCHEZ: Listen to this, we've got -- hold on. We've got some breaking news coming in. I'm going to share with you right now. It was just handed to me. I'm reading it off the wire just as it's given to me.
A sheriff's deputy in central Arizona was shot Friday afternoon by a member of an alleged group of illegal immigrants. Authorities say the Pinal County deputy who was not immediately identified contacted authorities after being wounded in a remote area. A sheriff's spokesman, she said authorities believe he was shot with an AK-47. The deputy was being treated for the wound, but his condition is not immediately known.
As I read through here, deputies in the department routinely patrol for illegal immigrants and smugglers, and it's not uncommon for them to be in the field alone. Officials said it was not immediately clear what led to the deputy to engage with the group on Friday. So there you go.
These are live pictures that we're getting in now, coming in from KNXV. And this apparently is related to this shooting. Boy, I'll tell you, the last thing that I think Arizonans wanted to see or needed was something like this which would likely inflame the situation.
Let me get a comment from both of you gentlemen on this. Kris, let me begin with you.
KOBACH: Well, you know, one of the things Arizonans have seen is a lot of violence associated with illegal aliens. Since 1999, three Phoenix police officers have been shot. We saw the killing of Robert Krentz on his ranch a few weeks ago. And now this. I mean, we have to acknowledge that part of the illegal alien trafficking comes along with drug gangs and they carry AK-47s.
SANCHEZ: Although to be fair you can't say that all Hispanics or illegal immigrants --
KOBACH: Oh, I didn't say that.
SANCHEZ: I know, I know, I know. No, and I understand that. You're absolutely right. You did not say that. But oftentimes xenophobic people out there will take this and say, oh, you see, all illegal immigrants are dangerous and they commitment crimes when in fact the study shows --
KOBACH: No, of course not.
SANCHEZ: -- they tend to collect -- commit fewer crimes.
KOBACH: No, no, that's aliens. Illegal aliens in Arizona tend to commit more crimes. It's not surprising that legal aliens commit less because we screen them before we let them into the country.
SANCHEZ: No, actually I would beg to differ. Illegal immigrants in the United States commit fewer crimes than people who are citizens of the United States. And I will check my facts on that with you and have you back.
KOBACH: OK. SANCHEZ: Meanwhile, Alfonso, would you mind, sir, this is not good. This is the kind of thing that will likely inflame the situation on both sides. And obviously that's not what official there's want. What is your comment?
Hold on, hold on. You know what? I think we're getting a new -- stay there, guys. We're going bring you both back as soon as we're -- let's sneak a break in, and we'll continue this discussion now that we've got new information.
For those of you just now joining us, a deputy has been shot. A sheriff's deputy has been shot in central Arizona, and there is every reason to believe that he was shot by a group of illegal immigrants, shot by a group of illegal immigrants.
This is the CNN wire that we just received from one of our own correspondents working this story. These are the live pictures as you look at the mayor. I have two wonderful guests who are taking us through this conversation and this information as it comes in. Hopefully we'll try and see if we can get our own correspondent, Casey Wian, on the phone as well. I see his name here on this wire story, which means he's working it. And we'll try and get him on the other side as well.
Stay there, folks. We're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We've got breaking news that we're following for you right now. I'm Rick Sanchez. And let me try and set the scene for you.
There has been a sheriff's deputy who has been shot in Arizona. Amidst all the controversy about this new law in the state, to try and clamp down on illegal immigrants, it comes just a couple of hours after the governor of Arizona changed the law to make sure that police officers cannot just stop anyone, but rather only people involved in the commission of a crime. These are live pictures that you're looking at now, as we follow the scene. Our understanding is, and this is important to this story, our understanding is as being reported by our own correspondents that the sheriff's deputy in central Arizona was shot Friday afternoon by an alleged illegal immigrant. Shot by an alleged illegal immigrant, which certainly could possibly inflame some of the actions and some of the palaver for lack of a better term, some of the comments that are being made in this heated story in Arizona.
Let me tell you, we've got with us right now, first of all, we've got Kris Kobach. He helped write the law in Arizona. Also is Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office for the president of the United States for George W. Bush, and John Avlon is joining us now here as well, who's very familiar with cases like these. Also, the reporter who is breaking the story is Casey Wian, our own correspondent, who I understand is out on the scene.
Kris, I'm asking you in the control room, do we have Casey? Is he ready to go?
We have Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): I'm here, Rick, if you can hear me.
SANCHEZ: I can hear you, man. Go ahead. Tell us what you know about this situation and what's going on right now.
WIAN: Well, as you said, a spokeswoman for the Sheriff's Department in Pinal County, now just to put a locator on that, it's about halfway between Phoenix and Tucson. We spent some time with the sheriff's deputy there earlier this week on patrol. And according to the deputy, the sheriff of Pinal County, this has become a serious transit point for illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. In the 12 hours or so we were on patrol with the deputy there's earlier this week, they apprehended more than 50 suspected illegal immigrants and 2,000 pounds of marijuana. So that sets the scene for where this happened.
Now, what we know about this individual case is that a sheriff's deputy who was out on patrol in the same area that we were at radioed in to the communications center and said that he had been shot in the abdomen by suspected illegal immigrants, and one of them had an AK-47. He said they were UDAs. That's law enforcement code for undocumented aliens. And it is unclear right now whether they have found the deputy or not. We know they are still looking for suspects, and perhaps still looking for the deputy.
This speaks to the violence that is associated with smugglers of both illegal immigrants and drugs that are operating in this area. And this speaks to why many people in Arizona believe that some sort of a crackdown on illegal immigration in general is necessary, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, John Avlon is joining us as well. John, the fact that there's an AK-47, I kind of saw your eyebrows raise when he said that. What does that say to you?
JOHN AVLON, DAILYBEAST.COM: Well, this is a serious -- this is some sort of a serious organized group that has heavy firepower. And as Casey Wian just reported, whether it's a group smuggling drugs, illegal immigrants or both, that's serious firepower. I think it's important for everyone to realize right now this is breaking news. There does appear to be a history of this kind of activity in this area. But right now, all the facts are fresh. Things are changing on the ground. The important thing is certainly our thoughts and prayers are with the sheriff's deputy and to keep a sense of perspective right now.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you this question, because this is the question that's going to be asked by the other side as soon as allegations are raised about the fact that you need to clamp down, as Casey said, a lot of folks in Arizona are saying.
AVLON: Sure. SANCHEZ: Because of incidents like this. And, Alfonso, let me bring you into this. Is it fair to equate the type of crime committed on the border by these drug dealers with the average illegal immigrant in the United States who may be washing cars or doing someone's dishes or doing in many cases the types of jobs that are perfectly decent but certainly not involved in any criminality?
AGUILAR: None at all. Frankly, this is a very sad and horrible story. But we should not generalize. In fact -- and that's a part of the problem with this law. We should focus on the criminals, on the drug traffickers that are causing these terrible crimes and not scapegoat undocumented immigrants who do not pose any threats to society.
SANCHEZ: But you have to understand --
AGUILAR: Again --
SANCHEZ: But, Alfonso, you have to understand how someone living in Arizona, a border state that sees a story like this that we're reporting now on the news, and you have to be sensitive to their frustrations in wanting to say enough is enough. I'm sure you do, right?
AGUILAR: I understand completely. I understand completely the frustration. But we also have to recognize that the federal government has failed to act. And that's why the government of Arizona is reacting to that failure by passing this law. But we have to be very objective. And I think we have very limited resources, and they should be focused on criminals and drug traffickers, those Mexican drug cartels, but not on good hard-working people that in no way pose a threat to the community there.
SANCHEZ: Well, I think, you know --
AGUILAR: I think the frustration.
SANCHEZ: Your point is well made. And I think most folks here agree with you that the federal government has perhaps for political reasons dropped the ball, and Arizona's stepping in where there's a whole lot of oxygen and trying to fill the void.
All right. Let's get back to Casey now. In fact, let's take a break. Casey, I believe is going to have new information for us in just a moment.
Kris, I'm going to bring you back into the conversation because I know you have something to say in response to Alfonso.
This is an ongoing story now, folks. A sheriff's deputy has been shot in Arizona. We just heard from Casey Wian. It appears he may not yet have been found. We understand he was shot in the -- Casey, help me out here if you're still listening.
WIAN: In the abdomen. SANCHEZ: Shot in the abdomen, thanks, buddy. Let's do this. Let's take a break. When we come back, we'll get back with Casey and we'll give Kris a chance to respond as well.
You're watching breaking news here on CNN. A sheriff's deputy shot in Arizona by an illegal immigrant. I'm Rick Sanchez.
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SANCHEZ: We've got a breaking news story in Arizona. A sheriff's deputy has just been shot by an illegal immigrant, according to reports, and it does appear he may still be out there.
We're going to check in with Casey Wian in just a moment. But let me bring Kris back into this real quick. Kris Kobach, he helped write the law, the new law in Arizona.
Kris, can you put this in perspective for us? Because you know damn well that we're going have some folks on one side saying see, you've got to kick them all out, and then you're going to have folks on the other side saying it's not fair to compare what the bad guys do with what the good illegal immigrants do. Can you put this -- can you put this in perspective for Americans?
KOBACH: Sure. We've got to take a reasonable law enforcement approach to this. Now what Alfonso said before the break I think is a little bit naive. He said we have to focus on the drug smugglers and the serious criminals, not the normal garden variety illegal aliens who are just here to wash dishes.
The problem is they don't wear uniforms. They don't have special badges telling us which they are. The second problem is that the smugglers will bring in their human cargo, and I know this having worked with Maricopa County deputies on the ground. And in the same van where they have the human cargo, they have drugs as well. So the same gangs run the human smuggling and the drug smuggling.
The other misconception is that somehow ICE might have caught these guys before they shot that deputy. If an illegal alien smuggling unit gets past the border patrol and they're in the interior, the chances are virtually zero that they're going to run into ICE.
SANCHEZ: That's a good point.
KOBACH: The chances are quite high that they will run into state and local law enforcement.
SANCHEZ: That's a --
KOBACH: And shouldn't they be given the chance to help if they can?
SANCHEZ: That's a great point.
Casey Wian, let me bring you back in here before we sneak in another break. Do we know yet if the officer has been found? I heard you allude to the fact that he could still be out there.
WIAN: No, we don't know that yet. I've been trying to get through to Sheriff's Department officials, and we're actually en route to that area now. We're not quite there yet. So we don't know.
What I can tell you, though, is that sheriff's deputies, law enforcement sources around the border will tell you that even though the number of illegal immigrants crossing the border and being apprehended has gone down, the violence on the border against law enforcement agents and border patrol agents has gone up. These drug smugglers and immigrant smugglers are getting more desperate because there is an increased law enforcement presence on the border. They are becoming more violent.
You know, four or five years ago, it was very rare to see an illegal immigrant smuggler or coyote, however, you want to call them, armed. Now, law enforcement officers are now coming in contact with these folks armed more often. They are stealing loads of illegal immigrants from each other at gunpoint. So it is becoming much more dangerous in the Arizona desert.
SANCHEZ: It's understandable and well-explained. And Casey would know. He's worked that area now for quite some time.
Look at that picture right there, Kris. As we go to break, take me off, take me off. But just put that shot up right there. You see that? It looks like that's the police where they're setting up some type of staging area as they often do to try and either create a situation where they're going to go looking for the officer, or to try and collect evidence. We don't know, but we're using Casey and all of our other resources here to try and get you as much information as we can.
We're going to sneak in a break. I'm joined back with my guests and Casey Wian, our correspondent, as we continue to follow breaking news here on CNN out of Arizona. I'm Rick Sanchez.
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SANCHEZ: My guests have all covered or known about this story in one shape or another. And what you're looking at now is what are apparently a search that's going on in parts of central Arizona where a sheriff's deputy has been shot in the abdomen, according to reports from our own correspondent there, Casey Wian, by an illegal immigrant.
John, you've been following this situation with us as well. As you look at these pictures, what are your thoughts?
AVLON: I think what you can tell is this incident, which is still unfolding is going to add a lot of urgency to the advocates of this bill and this larger debate that we're having in the country right now.
SANCHEZ: Is it going to be almost a backlash to the backlash?
AVLON: This is going to be used as a political football for some people. We still are learning the facts. It's very important we understand this is an unfolding story. It's very serious. But we can say for certain right now is our thoughts should be with the deputy. This is going to be --
SANCHEZ: Hold on. Hold on. We've got Casey back on. Apparently we've got some new information. Pardon me for interrupting you, John, by the way.
Casey, what have you got?
WIAN: Actually, I'm sorry. I don't have any new information. We're still trying get in touch with the Sheriff's Department officials.
SANCHEZ: All right, hold on. Casey, I got it. I got it. Casey, are you there?
WIAN: Yes, I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Let me share with you what I have, and you can amplify it perhaps for us. I'm reading from -- man, these things are small. Let me get my glasses on.
Our affiliate KPNX chopper reporter has just reported. So we're putting this on KPNX, one of our affiliates there, that the deputy has been found. The deputy has been found. The search for the suspects, which may be what we're looking at here with this -- with these helicopters flying around, the search for the suspect continues, Casey.
WIAN: Well, that's good news that the deputy has been found. Did they say anything about the condition he was found in?
SANCHEZ: All right, Casey is cutting out on us now. Casey, we don't hear you, apparently.
You know, Casey -- you know, this guy hustles all the time. And he'll do whatever he possibly can to get the story to us. He's probably running around that area that you're looking at out there with the cell phone. So when we get Casey back, we'll try and bring him in.
I interrupted you, John, finish up.
AVLON: No, I think we don't yet know the status of the sheriff's deputy who's been found. Again, I think the focus here is that this is going to really add urgency, all the advocates of this bill. The fact that it's so inland within Arizona, it's not near the border.
SANCHEZ: It's a great point.
AVLON: It really does highlight the fear, the anger and fear and frustration that people in Arizona feel right now.
SANCHEZ: We're down to a minute, but, Alfonso, that's the point that Kris was just making, the fact that somehow local and federal guys need to try and work together to stamp this problem out. He's right, isn't he?
AGUILAR: Yes, he's absolutely right. But we have to deal with this in a reasonable way. Find a way to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. And I would submit that the way to do that is to create a mechanism to allow for the legal flow of the immigrant workers that we need. That would liberate the resources for officers to go after the bad guys and the drug dealers.
SANCHEZ: Thirty seconds left, 15 seconds of which goes to Casey Wian.
Casey, we got you back. Anything you can add?
WIAN: What I can add is we checked with the local hospital. The only hospital in the area, the Casa Grande Medical Center, the deputy was not there yet.
SANCHEZ: OK.
WIAN: They don't know anything about his condition.
SANCHEZ: Casey Wian doing great work reporting on this story for us exclusively tonight. We thank you. I want to thank all of my guests. We'll stay with this story at CNN. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us.
Here now, "LARRY KING LIVE."
