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Campbell Brown
Authorities Investigate Times Square Bomb Plot; Disaster in the Gulf
Aired May 03, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Campbell is off tonight.
The manhunt is on right now for the person or persons behind the Times Square bombing plot, and there are new and disturbing details tonight on that failed car bomb that put countless people in danger this weekend.
Let's take a live look now at a bustling Times Square this evening, where life has returned to normal for tourists and residents, but a ramped-up police presence is evidence of an intense investigation still under way.
And, today, the White House said what everybody was thinking: It was meant to be a terror attack. Senior counterterrorism officials say they are looking for an international connection.
Here's what we know right now. The Nissan Pathfinder, which was parked near Broadway Saturday night, was sold three weeks ago on craigslist to a man in his late 20s or early 30s who handed over 1,800 bucks and then drove off. Police are searching for two people they want to question, one seen running uptown on Broadway, the other a man shown on a security camera taking off his shirt and walking away.
This is a very fast-moving story, and we have got lots going on tonight. So, let's get right to your CliffsNotes for the day's top stories, the "Mash-Up."
The only story in the country that rivals the Times Square plot, that massive oil spill spreading across the Gulf of Mexico. Over 200,000 gallons of crude are still spewing out of the damaged well every day. BP assured the White House it will pick up the tab for the cleanup. But the price has already topped $34 billion and will go much, much higher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far, BP has filled to seal the gushing well, and deep under water, chemical dispersants have had some success breaking up the oil, so it drops to the ocean floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BP says it could have huge the containment domes they have been building ready to ship out to the site as soon as tomorrow night. Once in place, possibly by the weekend, they hope to pump out some of the leaking oil. BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This weighs about 100 tons. It is about 40 feet tall, 15 feet wide. This is the dome that they are going to lower on top of this leaking pipe, straddle it, funnel the oil up to the top of the surface. They believe they can capture up to about 85 percent of the outflow from that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And, today, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said TV images of the Gulf spill made him change his mind about offshore drilling. He is withdrawing his support for expanded drilling off California's coast.
Our number-one international story tonight, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at the U.N. for a start of a month-long debate on nuclear weapons. You know how diplomats always seem to talk about having a frank exchange of views. Well, this time, they were all fired up, as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton squared off with Iran's president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The news comes amidst a heated day over at the United Nations, a conference on nuclear nonproliferation, where the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traded blows.
MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Regrettably, the United States has not only used nuclear weapons, but also continues to threaten to use such weapons against other countries, including my country.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Iran will do whatever it can to divert attention away from its own record and to attempt to evade accountability.
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": Meanwhile, the Pentagon did something today it had never done before. It disclosed the exact number of nuclear warheads in the U.S. arsenal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The military says there are more than 5,100 nuclear warheads, several thousands more to be dismantled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, delegates from the U.K. and the U.S. and France walked out during Ahmadinejad's speech earlier.
Our top political story tonight, the latest in the continuing saga of South Carolina's governor and his Argentinean soul mate. I'm talking, of course, about Mark Sanford. Today, the state's attorney general announced the governor will not face criminal charges stemming from 37 ethics complaints against him. Sanford was under investigation for using state aircraft for personal reasons, splurging on business-class tickets on the public dime, and misusing campaign funds. The governor has already paid $74,000 in fines, but the attorney general decided the matter doesn't rise to the level of a criminal case. Governor Sanford's term expires in January. He and his wife, Jenny, divorced earlier this year.
And a story everybody is buzzing about tonight: Conan O'Brien's "60 Minutes" interview. He did his first post-"Tonight Show" sit-down just last night. And, no surprise, he got in a dig or two at Jay Leno. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe he acted honorably during all of this?
CONAN O'BRIEN, FORMER HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": I don't -- I don't think I can answer that. I don't think -- I can just tell you maybe how I would have handled it. And I would do it differently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You wouldn't have come back on "The Tonight Show"?
O'BRIEN: Had I -- if I had surrendered "The Tonight Show" and handed it over to somebody publicly and wished them well, and then I don't -- I would not have come back a couple -- six months later. But that's me, you know? Everyone's got their own, you know, way of doing things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Conan O'Brien with a beard. It looks like all the buzz is good for business, though, because 13.3 million people tuned in to see Conan, making "60 Minutes" the most watched show of the evening.
Jay Leno was busy this weekend, too, of course, working the White House Correspondents Association Dinner. But the line of the night really belonged to another headliner.
Ladies and gentlemen, President Barack Obama with a presidential "Punchline."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Though I am glad that the only person whose ratings fell more than mine last year is here tonight.
Great to see you, Jay.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: I'm also glad that I'm speaking first, because we've all seen what happens when somebody takes the time slot after Leno's. (LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Jay is getting it from all ends. POTUS humor, everybody.
And that is the "Mash-Up" and those are the stories people are talking about tonight.
The crossroads of the world in the crosshairs of a would-be bomber -- tonight, new developments in the Times Square terror plot.
Plus, I will take you to the scene with a security expert and we will show you the secret weapons police are using to intercept those bent on mass murder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: New developments tonight in that attempted car bombing in Times Square. Authorities are learning much, much more about the SUV, the one that was set to explode in the middle of huge crowds on Saturday night, and the person at the center of it all.
CNN's homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, is tracking the investigation tonight from Washington for us.
Jeanne, what do you know?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Don, a senior counterterrorism official with direct knowledge of the investigation says federal officials are shifting focus to whether the individual driving the car had international connections of some kind, whether he had direct communications, or perhaps he got inspiration or information from a jihadist Web site.
The source also says investigators have widened the probe beyond a single person, saying the details of the plot suggest the individual didn't act alone. Another source, a federal law enforcement official, says investigators are following leads in several locations, not all of them on the East Coast.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): One of the best leads, the Nissan Pathfinder. A law enforcement source familiar with the investigation tells CNN that the car was sold on craigslist three weeks ago. The seller and buyer met at a shopping mall in Connecticut, where the buyer paid $1,800 in cash. No paperwork was exchanged. The seller describes the buyer as a man in his late 20s or early 30s.
The car is being processed for forensic evidence, fingerprints, DNA, fibers, as investigators try to find the person or people who tried to rip a hole in the heart of New York.
ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think that we have made really substantial progress. We can't talk about all the things that we are doing. That would give an advantage to the people who we are pursuing.
MESERVE: Surveillance tapes like this one showing a man shedding clothing in an alley near Times Square are being painstakingly reviewed for clues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a laborious process. It takes a lot of time.
MESERVE: The bomb components, like those distinctive and colorful clocks, are being examined and traced. An administration official says phone records are part of that effort.
A former member of the New York Police Department bomb squad says the bomb didn't have the signature of any known terror groups, and a former ATF official says whoever made it had very little technical capability.
JIM CAVANAUGH, FORMER ATF OFFICIAL: Well, I would describe the bomb as a Rube Goldberg contraption that required a series of different systems to function flawlessly before it would operate.
MESERVE: A video purported to be from the Pakistan Taliban claims responsibility for an attack on the U.S., although it doesn't mention New York.
JANET NAPOLITANO, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: No leads are being discarded right now. No sources of inquiry are not being pursued. This is an open investigation that really is at its beginning stages.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: But the investigation may be moving rapidly. There is a lot of evidence to work with, and the government has become exceedingly close-mouthed about its progress and its findings -- Don, back to you.
LEMON: Jeanne Meserve, thank you very much for that.
While Times Square is clearly an attractive target for terror, it is also a landmark that has the ability to fight back. Thousands of potential victims are also thousands of potential witnesses. And what they don't see, the eye in the sky can.
Today, I went down to Times Square to take a much closer look with security expert and former law enforcement agent Lou Palumbo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Whoever did this is bound to show up, at least the car, on one of these cameras. Are you willing to bet that?
LOU PALUMBO, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE OFFICER: Well, we actually know. In fact, we have got the car crossing the intersection of 45th, 7th Avenue and Broadway.
The next part of this equation, Don, is how we are going to locate him when he became a pedestrian and abandoned that vehicle.
LEMON: You said 45th and Broadway?
(CROSSTALK)
PALUMBO: Seventh and Broadway, correct.
LEMON: That's where we are right here. This is 45th Street.
PALUMBO: That is correct, sir.
LEMON: Yes.
PALUMBO: This is West 45th we are coming upon.
LEMON: Chances are, was it this camera or one like it that picked it up? Do you know?
PALUMBO: It could be any number of cameras. As you continue to walk the streets, you bang into them. This is a densely saturated area with cameras.
LEMON: You know what I -- you know what I think is interesting? There was a guy changing his clothes. And the mayor said, hey, listen, we have the naked cowboy who is performing right behind us right here.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: It was a hot day. Maybe he was just changing his shirt. And this is Times Square, where we have the naked cowboy.
LEMON: So, we have the naked cowboy, so we're not sure if it means anything that this guy was changing his clothes, but we do at least have it on camera.
PALUMBO: That's correct. And really what they are looking for at this point is suspicious or unusual activity.
LEMON: And so this is right here near where it was parked, near where the vehicle was parked. So, not only do you have the cameras and you have it going over on 45th street, or 7th avenue, but then you have got this one here as well.
PALUMBO: What we call redundancy.
LEMON: Yes. And you like that?
PALUMBO: Absolutely. I'm a big fan of redundancy. I'm a big fan of layering. The safety aspect of the city deals with layering also, the same way it does when you do an event.
LEMON: Yes.
PALUMBO: You layer. You layer. You layer. You create rings.
LEMON: We're glad you guys are protecting us. PALUMBO: There's a saturation of law enforcement here to begin with, just in uniformed presence, without talking about those that we're not seeing.
LEMON: We are standing here. This guy, the guy who is the manager or the owner of Junior's, center of attention now because that one little camera in the corner caught the guy who was taking off his T-shirt and changing.
There's another camera under this Memphis sign right here. There's another one right here under this sign, and then one behind us under the parking sign.
PALUMBO: Correct.
LEMON: So, what does that tell you about this area?
PALUMBO: It tells you that this is very -- very heavily surveilled by cameras.
LEMON: I'm just looking up here to see where -- you know, where there are cameras. And...
PALUMBO: It's difficult to conceive that a person got off -- got out of a vehicle on West 45th Street there and wasn't picked up, based on the number of cameras you and I just saw that are proprietary to businesses. We are not even talking about New York City-installed cameras.
LEMON: You are telling me they have seen this guy?
PALUMBO: My opinion is, they know -- they know this man's face. That is my opinion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: And for all those cameras, though, it was a T-shirt vendor who noticed the smoking Pathfinder and told police.
There is a slogan in New York posted all over town: "If you see something, say something." That's what it says. Well, this time, someone did say something, and it may have prevented a catastrophe.
Tonight, New York's former police commissioner Bill Bratton is here, along with the FBI veteran who led the investigation into the first World Trade Center attack. They are going to walk us through what's happening with the newest terror probe now well under way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight, investigators are making progress, searching for whoever tried to blow up part of Times Square, but so far no one is in custody.
There are many questions about who could be involve and why. And I want to bring in former New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, and Bill Gavin, former assistant director of the FBI's New York office. He led the probe into the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
Mr. Gavin, let me start with you, because, as you just saw, I was in Times Square today and saw cameras all over the place, several even pointed right where the car involved was parked, so why hasn't this guy been caught yet?
BILL GAVIN, FORMER NEW YORK FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Don, it's not really quite that easy.
If, in fact, they are able to look at every single camera -- and there are 80-some-odd cameras belonging to the police department, plus other cameras that belong to merchants in the area -- they have to go all over -- through every one of those cameras in a painstaking way.
The other thing that we have to remember, Don, is the fact that this individual bought a car from somebody whom we know in Connecticut. He said he bought it at a shopping center in Connecticut. I can assure you that individual has been back to the shopping center today with law enforcement people. And they are looking for cameras that are in malls, because, if it was bought in a mall, you can rest assured there would be cameras there. So they will be doing additional searches in that mall and try to identify this individual.
LEMON: And, Mr. Bratton, I have to ask you this. Is it possible -- and you heard what Lou Palumbo says -- is it possible that police know who this guy is, but they are not letting on, or they are watching him to see if it is part of a larger cell of some sort, and they're just biding their time to try to get more information? Is that possible?
WILLIAM BRATTON, ALTEGRITY RISK INTERNATIONAL: It's possible that -- anything is possible. And the first priority of the police, the FBI in this is to in fact apprehend those responsible. So, they will share what they need to share, but they're not going to share anything, particularly if it is going to impede the successful conclusion of their investigation.
LEMON: Because I just -- I want to ask you the question that I asked Mr. Gavin. Why hasn't he been caught, with all these cameras? You know the cameras there. You are the former police commissioner, not just the -- the Argus cameras, the police cameras, but the businesses in the area.
BRATTON: Well, you are using the term why hasn't he been caught? It is quite possible that maybe he has already been identified. They may be staking out where he or -- possible if there are accomplices engaged in this particular activity.
This thing is only 48 hours old, almost exactly 48 hours old. So, it is moving pretty rapidly. And I have no doubt that they will, in fact, apprehend the individual involved, and as well as any accomplices that might have worked with him.
LEMON: I want to go back to Mr. Gavin and ask you this.
It has been reported today that the person sold the car on craigslist and the man paid $1,800 in cash and then walked away from the car, but that craigslist, that investigators were able, through an I.P. address to craigslist, to track it down, track this person down.
How big a clue is this? Is this something that you think will help solve this case even faster?
GAVIN: Don, every -- every single piece of the investigation is worth doing. And if they can trace through the I.P. or maybe through some phone contact with the individual selling the car, if they can go backwards and look at LUDs and MUDs, they can do a wonderful job. They are doing that right now.
I say, rest assured, every single stone that can be unturned, overturned, is being turned right now. They need to get to the bottom of this. And I believe, just like Bill Bratton does, they will find this individual.
LEMON: We got new information tonight from intelligence officials, Mr. Bratton, that they are shifting this -- their investigation overseas, that someone -- it might be international terrorism.
Here's a question. Does it matter if it is international or domestic? Because, if it is domestic, doesn't that pose an even bigger problem in some ways?
BRATTON: It really doesn't matter whether it is international or homegrown, because, either way, they can inflict great harm.
Concern with the international connection, let's face it, that, overseas, that they have got a lot more experience with this, in terms of carrying out these actions successfully, that -- and would potentially be a bigger network than we might have with a homegrown terrorist, lone wolf or small cell.
But, no matter where it emanates from, overseas or locally, it's still something that has to be fought. And what's the expression? Homeland security is hometown security? And this was certainly a case where hometown security worked.
You had a vendor who saw something, notified the police. The police did as you would expect them to do, particularly in this city, New York, where they are constantly trained on this. And it worked this time, fortunately, in the sense of clearing the area very quickly, and, thankfully, the device -- even if the device had been capable of going off -- and that is not really sure even at this stage of the game.
LEMON: Mr. Gavin, the last question to you. And I have about 10 seconds left here. You heard the mayor saying life back to normal, everyone, get back to normal, but he also said that he needs more money from Homeland Security -- from the government, I should say, to help with security here in New York City. So, is there a false sense of security from these people, from tourists who are out in Times Square in New York City and the residents who live here?
GAVIN: I don't believe there's a false sense of security.
We look at -- there's two things we have to keep in mind here. Number one, the primary thing, is, New York is a target, and the people in New York know how to handle a situation. Both the citizens, and, moreover, the law enforcement in the city of New York know how to handle it.
So, I don't it's a stretch or I don't think they are getting shortchanged. I think that the -- the -- New York is, was and will remain a target for any terrorist, whether it be domestic or foreign terrorist. And so getting the money in there to do the right thing to help law enforcement is all-important, I think, in this case.
LEMON: Bill Gavin and Bill Bratton, thank you very much. And good to see you again, sir. Pleasure seeing you. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And coming up tonight here on CNN: the huge oil slick in the Gulf of Mexico now about the size of Delaware and growing larger by the hour. How devastating will the spill be to the region and the rest of the country?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A massive 60-mile-long oil slick is closing in on the Gulf Coast and growing larger and larger. Today, BP executives met with the interior secretary, homeland security secretary, and other top officials to discuss the crisis.
The company says it will pay for the cleanup operation, and it is going to cost them big.
Tom Foreman is at the magic wall with the latest on this disaster -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Don.
What you are looking at right here is probably the best hope we have right now for stopping this sooner, rather than later. Look at that giant metal box they are building, kind of like this. I want to show you the second part of this equation, too. The is part of the solution, we believe. Here's the other part of it right here, a giant cone that will sit there like this.
Why does all that matter? Well, because we need to go down below the ocean and take a look at what we are dealing with down here. What they are hoping to do down here, as they address these three leaks down on the bottom about a mile down -- the rig is over here -- it originally crashed about 1,500 feet away -- is they want to come toward one of these giant leaks.
They are going to take that giant box that we showed you a moment ago. They are going to lower that down over the leak, make it smaller and smaller, if they can, and then they will fit the cone on top of the box, like this. I'm going to illustrate this, so you can see everything involved. They would actually have a box right like this. It would cover the leak, encompassing the leak, which contains this explosive power, which is more than 2,000 pounds.
Then they would siphon it up through here. And then they hook a hose to it, and that hose would then run all the way up to the surface to a barge. Once they do that, they think this would contain about 85 percent of the problem. Then they would put smaller boxes over here. That is the best bet right now.
But, as you mentioned, Don, they have to have a longer-term solution, because the leak on the surface now about the size of Delaware. That's where they are hoping they can bring in another oil rig over to there, already have one lined up. And it will drill a second line down, which would actually cut into this line over time and cut off the flow, so that perhaps they can stop it more permanently.
But, right now, that's what we are looking at, Don, to try to stop this leak, which, as I said, is about the size of Delaware right now, and, as you noted, is steadily closing in on the shore -- Don.
LEMON: Quick and easy, Tom, as what you're demonstrating there.
FOREMAN: Don't we all?
LEMON: But it's going to take some time to do that.
FOREMAN: Yes, and so this could be done by the end of the week though with a lot of luck.
LEMON: And we hope so. Thank you, Tom Foreman.
Let's bring in now presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. He is the author of "The wilderness Warrior," the story of Teddy Roosevelt's efforts to preserve wetlands. Also, CNN contributor James Carville who lives in New Orleans.
Good to see both of you, Doug, I'll start with you. This is a huge problem. BP can't cap the leak. They don't know exactly how much oil is even beneath the seabed the Deep Water Horizon was tapping. Is this a case of BP and other oil companies, I have to ask you this, for that matter, just going too far into the water and digging too deep?
DOUG BRINKLEY, AUTHOR, "THE WILDERNESS WARRIOR": Well, we're going to find out but I can tell you BP wasn't prepared for this. That containment device is being built. They never had a plan B if the regulator wasn't going to work. British Petroleum has been abysmal since day one on this and the fact they're building it, it's going to gush for another week and maybe in a week. And then if that doesn't work, they don't really have a plan C but they might call some other people in. It's been a boondoggle by British Petroleum from day one of this whole event. And let's just hope that's one of these Hail Marys schemes work, but meanwhile, the great ecosystem of the Gulf of Mexico is being ravaged.
LEMON: And, Doug and James, both of you listen to this. I know that you, at least for you, Doug, you're tired of people calling this a gulf spill and comparing what happened to the Exxon Valdez. You say this is a BP problem and you want BP to take ownership. But I want you to listen what the company's chairman had to say on today's ABC's "Good Morning, America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY HAYWOOD, CHAIRMAN OF BP: This wasn't their accident. This was a drilling rig operated by another company. It was their people, their systems, their processes. We are responsible not for the accident, but we are responsible for the oil and for dealing with it and cleaning the situation up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not responsible for the accident?
HAYWOOD: The drilling rig was a Transocean drilling rig. It was their equipment that's failed. It's their systems and processes that were running it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Doug, you first, what do you make of that and then I'll go to James?
BRINKLEY: Well, I found it was outrageous. Obviously, whether it's going to be Halliburton or Transocean, there are going to be other groups that are going to be in class action lawsuits. It's not just British Petroleum, but they're in charge. You can't just blame -- you can't be a company who outsources equipment and then say, oops, well, don't blame me for the accident. They didn't have the regulator that's proper. Obviously, this is an unprecedented oil spill. And the fact that they've been so, in my -- and the word keep coming to my mind, mealy-mouth British Petroleum about the way they talk to the public, I haven't seen British Petroleum educating anybody. They've been in hideout mode, worried about lawsuits and they're constantly reeling information back in and then re-putting it out there. It's been awful.
Doug, I want James to get in. What do you make of that, James?
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, they need not worry about lawsuits. They're going to be sued again and again and again. So that's not their problem and they need to stop listening to lawyers.
Secondly, if he takes responsibility for the oil and cleaning it up, well, that -- I will say good things. I think the important thing to remember here in the gulf, we -- in New Orleans and Doug knows this, this is two engineering phases we've had. Katrina was not a natural disaster in New Orleans and St. Bernard Parish. It was a massive engineering failure. This is another massive engineering failure. And some projections are right, this is not just going to be a disaster in the gulf, this is going to get into the gulf stream. It's going to go to the Atlantic Coast.
LEMON: And James --
CARVILLE: I guarantee you one thing. If it gets to the Hamptons, somebody will do something about it.
LEMON: James, this story near and dear to my heart, too, because I'm from Louisiana. My mom is in Baton Rouge, and she's concerned about. So listen, you bring up a good point. You spent time with the governor today. Being from Louisiana --
CARVILLE: Right.
LEMON: -- you know the severity of that spill and what it means for the seafood industry, tourism, oil industry for that matter. It's one thing for this slick if it reaches, you know, the shore. But if it goes inland, Lake Pontchartrain, other rivers and tributaries, that's going to be a huge problem. What did the governor say about that?
CARVILLE: Well, the governor said that BP didn't have -- this couldn't happen and that they really don't have a plan to keep it out of -- and Doug Brinkley knows this, too. There's no plan to keep the estuaries. A lot of the stuff is not land or water and a lot of it is. Unfortunately, it's washing away. But this -- if this thing gets deep into the seafood beds, it is the most productive high-quality seafood area, not in the United States but the entire world. And you're talking about these waters are fertile. And the effect of this on high-quality seafood supply is going to be unbelievable.
LEMON: James Carville that will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, James Carville and Douglas Brinkley.
And coming up, another disaster involving land and water, the rising tides in Tennessee as catastrophic storms pound the southeast.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Coming up, angry about all those outrageous airline fees? Well, you'll be furious when you find out how much money they're pulling in for that industry.
But first, Tom Foreman is here with tonight's "Download." Hello, Tom.
FOREMAN: Hey, Don. A massive storm system that's spawned killer tornadoes is still pounding on the southeast. We've learned that flooding tonight has killed four more people in Tennessee. Tennessee, the hardest hit of all the states where at least 19 people are dead and storms in the south, hundreds forced from their homes. And entire neighborhoods have been cut off by the flood waters.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad assailed the U.S. and Israel during a U.N. address on nuclear disarmament. The Iranian president said the world's nuclear powers want to monopolize the weapons. Delegates from the United States walked out in protest as Ahmadinejad spoke. Later, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Iran would do anything to divert attention from its own nuclear programs.
United and Continental announced today they are merging to create the world's largest airline. The deal is worth some $3.5 billion. The combined company will be called United but will use Continental's logo. The deal creates a giant with hubs in some of the biggest U.S. airports and major international routes stretching all around the globe.
And Hollywood Star Lynn Redgrave has died after a seven-year battle with breast cancer. Redgrave was twice nominated for Oscars including her work in "Georgy Girl" and "Gods and Monsters." She also worked on stage and television. Redgrave comes from a family of actors, including her sister, Vanessa, and her niece, the late Natasha Richardson. Lynn Redgrave was 67 years old.
LEMON: A legend and a class act.
FOREMAN: Absolutely.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Tom Foreman. Appreciate it.
And still to come here, the tea party says racism is not part of the agenda but what if the tea party protesters are mostly black? We'll talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A leader of the national tea party group today responded to charges that there are racists among their ranks. Jenny Beth Martin, who will join me in just a minute, says despite all the criticism, her group, the Tea Party Patriots, does not tolerate racism and is open to everyone, including minorities. But the race issue continues to dog the tea party protests. Talk show host Bill Maher posed this provocative question on ABC's "This Week."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, TALK SHOW HOST: Can you imagine if some of the -- what's going on with the tea party rallies, if they were a group of black people, you know, waving guns, coming up armed, talking about how you might -- you know, hinting about how you might have to take matters into your own hands if the government doesn't do what you want? Do you think the reaction in this country --
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So are Bill Maher and others right? Does the tea party have a race problem? John Ridley is the founder and editor-in-chief of thatminority thing.com, and Jenny Beth Martin, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots. Also with us on the phone, author Tim Wise, who has just written a piece entitled, "Imagine If the Tea Party were Black." Tim has to be on the phone tonight because of the 100-year flood that has Nashville, Tennessee, and the surrounding areas in a state of emergency.
Boy, just look at that Tim. Glad you're safe. But first question to you, you heard what Bill Maher had to say. He is echoing, in some ways a point that you make in an article that's been circulating and getting a whole lot of attention. Explain your premise, Tim, and the argument that you're making.
TIM WISE, AUTHOR, "COLOR BLIND" (via telephone): Well, the premise is very simple. We, as a country, tend to view white political anger very differently than anger or even just, you know, activism when it's evidenced or evinced by people of color. I just wanted people to think about, for example, you know, what would the public perception be? What would the discussion be on FOX News, for example, if thousands of mostly black protesters who were angry about some particular bill that was being considered by the Congress went to Washington, surrounded lawmakers on their way to work and yelled at them? Forget the whole spitting or the racial slur piece of it just the yelling at them to do what they wanted? How would that be perceived? The fact is we know the civil rights movement knew they couldn't act like that. A, they had too much class. B, they realized that if they had done that, they would have been viewed as an insurrectionary mob. Likewise, the comments made by, you know, traditional mainstream conservative talk show hosts are the kinds of things that no black or brown commentator could get away with.
LEMON: I want to let Jenny Beth get in here. Does what Tim say make any sense to you? Does the racial makeup of the movement make any difference in terms of your tea party message?
JENNY BETH MARTIN, CO-FOUNDER, TEA PARTY PATRIOTS: We're ordinary citizens standing and we're standing for three things -- fiscal responsibility, constitutionally limited government and free markets. In these three principles, they transcend race and they apply to everyone. The out-of-control spending the government is doing right now, it's going to affect our children and our grandchildren. Regardless of race, it's going to affect all of them and that's what we're concerned about.
LEMON: So you don't think that the racial makeup, you don't think Tim's argument has any credence? You don't buy into it?
MARTIN: I don't -- I don't think so. We don't have --- we don't tolerate racism within tea party patriots. We focus on those core values. And when people aren't listening, sometimes you have to raise your voice.
LEMON: Yes.
MARTIN: There's anger out there right now, and anger is OK as long as it's channeled in the appropriate manner.
WISE: You know what, Don? Don, there is a lot of anger on the part of Arab-Americans who are being profiled all the time since 9/11. But you and I both know and I think Jenny would agree that if Arab- Americans were to voice their displeasure at racial profiling and frankly the way in which neither party, Democrat or Republican, have taken it very seriously, and were to go and yell at lawmakers to pass some type of anti-profiling bill that they would be seen as terrorists. They would be seen as insurrectionary. I mean, that's the difference. And so, Jenny, you know, is talking about her movement not being racist, that's not the topic this evening. The topic is do we perceive mostly white folks anger over whatever topic, whatever the issue is differently than we would if it was people of color? I think the answer to that question is obvious.
LEMON: Tim and Jenny Beth, I'm going to let John get in here. What do you have to say about this, because you were champing at the bit to get in here?
JOHN RIDLEY, THATMINORITYTHING.COM: I do think there are two issues here. One is that we talk about whether or not the tea party is racist and the other is about perception.
LEMON: Not everyone. Not everyone in the tea party.
RIDLEY: You cannot say that everyone in the tea party.
LEMON: Would you say that there are elements of the tea party? You see the signs what have you and the extremes. When you call those people out for some reason, people think that you're calling the entire tea party out and calling them racist.
RIDLEY: Yes.
LEMON: And that is not -- that's not the case.
RIDLEY: It's not the case. I don't think that you can paint them all with a single brush and say that everybody in the tea party is racist. But I do think you can look at the extreme points of view and when you look at some of these realities, you see signs that use the "N" word. When you see signs that say that taxation is Obama's white slavery, when you see people saying that the taxpayers are Obama's Jews, well, you have to understand that those messages are extremely strong. And it's not enough to say that, hey, we don't agree with these. You really have to take a stand and make sure that these individuals are not involved in your rights.
LEMON: Yes.
RIDLEY: Because then you are going to be judged by the most extreme end.
LEMON: Very quickly here, Jenny Beth, I have a short time. Go ahead.
MARTIN: And in Tea Party Patriots that is what we do. If we see those things, we tell them to leave. We don't have any room for that. We have a message and we need to stay on that message, and the majority of the people within this movement understand the message.
LEMON: And I have to tell you Jenny Beth, I have been to two tea parties and I have seen those signs and your group may call them out but not everyone does. And I just want to clarify here, speaking to Tim, I don't think that Tim Wise -- and, Tim, you can answer for yourself.
WISE: Sure.
LEMON: They're saying that the entire tea party movement is racist. What he is saying is what if it was -- what if they were people of color, black or brown people doing the same thing, as we had 100,000 people protesting what's happening in Arizona? What if that -- what if those people were the tea partiers and were doing what the tea parties are doing?
RIDLEY: But I think historically speaking, we know what happened.
LEMON: Yes.
RIDLEY: You saw in 1967, the Black Panthers started to openly carry --
WISE: Right.
RIDLEY: Laws were changed so that black people could not openly carry weapons.
LEMON: Yes. All right, guys.
WISE: The NRA did not come to the defense of the Black Panthers.
LEMON: All right.
WISE: That's for sure.
LEMON: Tim, hey, you guys, stand by for a little bit. We're going to continue this conversation in just a little bit right here on CNN, so stand by.
And "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Larry, what do you have for us?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We have breaking news on that Times Square bomb case. Did someone act alone or was it something much bigger? Tom Ridge and New York Governor David Paterson will help us answer those questions.
Also, a look at the oil spill in the gulf that's inching toward the coast, could possibly make a turn, takes it in a whole new direction. Disaster might be coming. Bobby Kennedy Jr. and Jack Hanna will join us. It's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Don.
LEMON: Larry, sounds very interesting. We will be watching. Thank you, sir. See you then.
And hang in there, everybody. When we come back, President Barack Obama may be the first black president, but some say he's been sidestepping issues involving race. Tim Wise has a very provocative point of view on that topic and you're going to hear from him, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back to my panel right now, John Ridley, Jenny Beth Martin, and on the phone with us, Tim Wise. He can't be here because of the flooding that's happening down south. Tim, so we're glad that you're OK. I'm going to start with you again.
You have a new book coming out, "Color Blind." And I think it's very interesting. It's a very provocative point in your book that President Obama and maybe some Democrats, might be doing the country a disservice when it comes to matters of race. What do you mean by that?
WISE: Well, the argument in the book is a little bit deeper than that. What I talk about in the book is that unless we are willing to call out the problem of racism in housing, in education, in health care, actual acts of discrimination, which I document fully in the book, what ends up happening is that, number one, by not calling it out, we reinforce the denial that is so prevalent, particularly among white America, that the problem is real. The second thing we do is in the case of the president, if he's not willing to call out some of the blatant racism, which I think is behind, for example, the Arizona SB 1070 or the blatant racism which occasionally manifests in some of that tea party opposition, the more radical edge of it, he's not willing to call it out. I think it actually undermines his credibility. When things are that obvious and you're not willing to -- some credibility in the public and that's one of the points I wanted to make.
LEMON: John is sitting here. I don't think John agrees with you.
RIDLEY: I don't quite agree. I do think when there's racism, you've got to call it out. And you see what's going on in Arizona. I don't think anyone has a problem saying that there are elements of this law that are clearly racist. But I do think one of the big problems that we're facing moving ahead in the 21st century it's more socioeconomic. If you are a --
LEMON: Hang on. Hang on. I'm going to let you finish your point. I'm going to let you finish your point. But even the Congressional Black Caucus and some very prominent leaders, Cornell West, Tavis Smiley, a number of people are saying the president is not focusing on issues that are important to African-Americans. Some are saying the president is not focusing on issues, including immigration is not strong enough an issue.
WISE: Don, it's not just -- it's not just that.
LEMON: Or for brown people. Go ahead, Tim, real quick. WISE: Don, it's not just that, I mean, the claim that it is mostly socioeconomic. Let's take health care.
I document in the book specifically how the racial disparities in health care between whites and people of color are not mostly about economics. It is not mostly about do you have coverage or do you not. The studies are very clear that the reason people of color, especially black folks have worst health outcomes are two things. Number one, the cumulative effect of racial bias over time and secondly, the actual dispensation of unequal care by doctors.
RIDLEY: Tim, I would just jump in very quick.
LEMON: John, go ahead.
RIDLEY: Sometimes when we start to segregate some of these issues and say they are merely black issues or white issues, besides you go away from the fact that they are our issues. Again, for people of color who are not economically challenged or doing well, those issues are very different from anyone who is economically challenged and facing those same issues. So I think as we move ahead, yes, we should call it racism when it's there. Again, in Arizona, we see folks doing that but I think that we do get into a rut as people when they start saying, this is merely a black issue, this is merely a white issue, and not President Obama as president of the United States.
LEMON: And he does have to walk a tightrope when it comes to this.
RIDLEY: I think he has to walk a tightrope, but he is our president.
LEMON: Yes, yes.
RIDLEY: And he does have to make sure that he's president --
WISE: But he should be willing to say that racism is a national crisis.
LEMON: And I see no reason why our president --
(CROSSTALK)
RIDLEY: And I would say in a more --
LEMON: So, Jenny -- listen, guys, I want this to go to Jenny. Do you think that the president should talk more? Does it bother you if he talks more about black issues?
MARTIN: We focus on our core values and we really haven't focused only or solely on the president. The things that are happening, Congress has to address the problems. Congress hasn't been open and ethical and transparent. And we have to get through Congress before it can ever hit the president's desk.
LEMON: Yes. All right, so Jenny Beth Martin, thank you very much, John Ridley and Tim Wise.
All right. And "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few moments. But right after break, the airlines are bleeding you dry with all those creative new fees and now, they're laughing all the way to the bank. It is the stuff of outrage and it's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Finally tonight, your pain equals their profits. We're talking about the airline industry. A new government report out today says the airline industry raked in, get this, nearly $8 billion in fees last year. That's $8 billion with a B. The biggest chunk coming from, guess what, checked baggage.
It is a 40 percent increase from 2008, the year baggage fees were introduced. And among other fees we're talking about here, extra charges for reservations, seating assignments, food and drinks, mileage and even additional costs for pillows and blankets. Pretty soon, you're going to have to carry your coins because there may be a coin dispenser on the bathroom door. Let's hope it doesn't get to that. All of that, of course, on top of the actual fare that you pay.
So when your flight is delayed on the tarmac, you'll have all the time in the world to think about all the money you have spent on your trip before you even get off the ground. So, sit back and relax. Just be ready to pay for every little bit of that experience. Talk about flying the friendly skies huh?
That's it for now. Thanks for joining us.
Larry King starts right now.
