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Nancy Grace
Woman`s Body Found in Suitcase in San Francisco Bay
Aired May 19, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, California. A tourist walking the San Francisco Bay scenic waterfront with his little niece gets to see the sights, all right. He spots a woman`s leg when he finds washed ashore a suitcase. Stuffed inside, a young woman`s body. Tonight, who`s the woman in the suitcase?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. A tourist walking along the San Francisco waterfront makes a gruesome discovery. Washed ashore on the rocks of the bay is a suitcase. Stuffed inside, the body of a young woman. Police reportedly believe the body and the suitcase have been on the rocks for at least a couple of days, the body only described as a female who appeared to be in her 30s. The remains were reportedly left stuffed inside the suitcase and taken to the medical examiner for proper identification.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, will Hollywood superstar Lindsay Lohan`s string of wild, erratic behavior finally land her behind bars? After years of DUIs, alleged drug use, a judge set to bring down the hammer, sending her straight to jail if she doesn`t show up in court 08:00 tomorrow morning. At this hour, Lohan in France for a star-studded Cannes Film Festival, claiming she lost her passport and blaming volcanic ash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have always been the topic of the headlines, constantly...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... hounded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Lindsay Lohan will not be showing up in court tomorrow, something she was ordered to do by a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lindsay Lohan is stuck at the Paris airport, apparently, with no passport.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions swirling. Will a warrant be issued for Lindsay Lohan`s arrest?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The actress says someone stole her passport in Cannes, and the timing couldn`t be worse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know it`s true (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s supposed to be in court tomorrow morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge reportedly said she`ll issue a warrant if Lohan doesn`t show up at 8:30 sharp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more passes for her, the judge said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hearing to determine whether or not Lohan`s complying with her 2007 probation stemming from a drunken driving conviction.
911 OPERATOR: Santa Monica police. What`s the emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re being followed by a GMC. This gentleman jumped out of the car...
911 OPERATOR: And what did he do...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh, sir, they`re following us! We need help!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The deputy DA has said she`ll seek up to 180 days of jail time for Lohan if she`s violated her probation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... her lawyer said doing everything in her power to get back, perhaps a private jet. But she says she doesn`t think there`s any possibility of Lindsay showing up in court tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it too little, too late?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What am I supposed to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Starlet Lindsay Lohan going to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A tourist walking the San Francisco Bay scenic waterfront with his little niece gets to see the sights, all right. He spots a woman`s leg when he finds washed ashore a suitcase. Stuffed inside, a young woman`s body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, police are awaiting cause of death on the body of a young woman found stuffed inside a suitcase found tossed into the San Francisco Bay. The body was reportedly found curled in a fetal position and had no visible signs of decomposition. Police say the suitcase bears no owner tags and may have only been in the water for a couple of days, based on the body`s lack of decomposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Sebastian Kunz, reporter Talk 910 KNEW/Green 960. Sebastian, what`s happening?
SEBASTIAN KUNZ, TALK 910 KNEW/Green 960: Nancy, they`re continuing to try and investigate and try, you know, to investigate and get the next of kin notified because they understand that they have identified the body that was found as an African-American woman, but they are waiting to notify the next of kin until they tell the media the name of the missing woman -- or the woman who was found, I should say, in the San Francisco Bay yesterday morning.
GRACE: With us via Skype, Sebastian Kunz from 910 KNEW. We`re getting all sorts of conflicting reports at this hour. Just washed ashore, a tourist discovers there, along with his little niece, a suitcase. In the suitcase, a woman`s body stuffed inside.
Tonight, who is the woman in the suitcase? Various reports claiming she is a light-skinned female. Another report telling us she is Latina. Reports bouncing off the walls. There you see the suitcase shrouded in a white sheet on a medical examiner`s gurney being taken from the San Francisco Bay. That`s the tourist walk. As you can see, all of the cameras and the telescopes along the side of the walk built in for tourists. Well, they got an eyeful today. A man and his young niece discover a suitcase with a woman`s body stuffed inside.
Out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, what more can you tell me? I think I`ve got Matt. Let me go to Marlaina while I get Matt by satellite. Marlaina, what more can you tell me?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, we know that this woman was in her 30s, and we know that the police are treating this as a homicide. We also know that they contacted the Coast Guard, and they`re trying to find out if this suitcase was dropped in a different location and then drifted ashore. So they`re doing sort of a reverse search to find out exactly where this woman was dropped in the water.
GRACE: We are going straight to the lines. We`re taking your calls live. To Jocelyn in Canada. Hi, Jocelyn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just wondering if -- have they found out if the suitcase has been immersed for a while? We live on the coast of the Pacific, and anything that`s in the ocean, you can tell. Have they found that out? Or was it...
GRACE: Well, I understand -- I understand, Jocelyn, they believed it had only been in the water for a couple of days.
You are seeing footage there of the crime scene. A suitcase has washed ashore, the San Francisco Bay. Tourists walking along the boardwalk, and they see a woman`s leg. They drag it ashore. Who is the woman in the suitcase?
To Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us, chief medical examiner, Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor." Doctor, thank you for being with us.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Sure.
GRACE: How can they tell, Doctor, that the suitcase has been in the water just a couple of days? How would they know that?
PERPER: Well, I`m not an expert on suitcases, but what`s important is not the suitcase. The important thing is the body. And the body shows a lack of decomposition, indicating that it was very fresh, perhaps a day or two at the most. So the identification was much easier, and apparently, it was successful, though it was not yet released.
GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell. I think we`re hooked up with him now. Matt, what more can you tell us?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): What police are telling us, Nancy, in the last hours is that it appears the body had been there less than two days. It was in the water less than two days. This is based on the alleged lack of decomposition. Now, the body has been transported to the medical examiner`s office for autopsy. They`re still not saying it`s officially a homicide. They`re saying it`s a homicide or questionable death, at this point.
GRACE: So Matt, they`re not saying it`s a homicide, so I guess their suggestion is she folded herself up in a suitcase and died. OK, Matt, it`s a homicide!
We are taking your calls live. To Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did anybody see anything?
GRACE: I don`t know yet. Right now, we don`t even know who she is, but I do know this -- back to you, Matt Zarrell. Speaking of making an identification, explain to me how they are basically working backwards with the currents to tell where she came from.
ZARRELL: Yes. What they`re doing is they`ve got a Coast -- they`ve got -- they lined up with the Coast Guard, a computer program that tracks what they think is the original location where the suitcase was dumped in, using the computer (INAUDIBLE) They use it in search and rescue missions. But unfortunately, the program was not able to give them any substantial info exactly where the suitcase was dumped into the lake -- into the bay, Nancy.
GRACE: So you mean they look at the incoming tide...
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: ... to that particular spot where the suitcase washed ashore, and then they basically put it in rewind and follow the tide back. But it seems to me that could go to various sorts of locations.
I know one thing, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths" -- I know this isn`t random.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Likely is not random, no. And likely, the reason she`s in that suitcase is that something happened in some guy`s apartment, and he couldn`t get her out of there in any other way because he can`t just walk her out to the car.
But I do want to point out we do not know if it`s a homicide. There are cases where people put people in these kind of -- in suitcases and toss them. It`s not a homicide. It could be a drug overdose. It`s a -- Oh, my God, she`s dead in my apartment. Or there was a guy I know who was -- got drunk, fell asleep. He woke up the woman and had a heart attack. He couldn`t remember what he did to her, so he disposed of her body, but he actually didn`t kill her. So it is a suspicious death, likely a homicide, but you never know.
GRACE: Pat, Pat, Pat -- put Pat up, please! Everybody, prior to this moment, I thought -- prominent criminal profiler, Pat, you don`t have an accidental overdose or a heart attack, and the immediate response of the friend is to put her in a suitcase and throw her into the San Francisco Bay.
BROWN: It has happened, Nancy. It has happened before.
GRACE: When?
BROWN: No, there are cases...
GRACE: When?
BROWN: There are cases of this happening before.
GRACE: Name one.
BROWN: I can`t remember the name of the person, but I remember it happening.
GRACE: When you have one, then I will consider that to be true.
BROWN: It`s absolutely true. But I would guess this is likely a homicide. But no, it has happened.
GRACE: I`ve never heard, She had a heart attack so I folded her up in a suitcase and threw it in the water...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: There is a -- I`ll go find you the name of that case. Actually, the guy cut her up and put her in the suitcase...
GRACE: You do that.
BROWN: ... but they found out that she died of a heart attack.
GRACE: She died of a heart attack.
BROWN: She did.
GRACE: You know, I don`t believe it, but when you show it to me in black and white...
BROWN: I`ll get it for you.
GRACE: ... then I will believe it.
BROWN: I`ll get it for you, Nancy. It was (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Back to the lines. Denise, Virginia. Hi, Denise. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. What date was the suitcase actually washed up to shore?
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, what do we know -- don`t go anywhere, Denise. I can tell you got another question. What`s the timeline, Matt?
ZARRELL: Tuesday morning, a tourist found the body about 9:00 AM in the bay.
GRACE: 9:00 AM in the bay Tuesday morning. Denise, did you have another question? What was the rest of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they following up on any, like, missing person reports in the area or...
GRACE: Well, I guess they`d better, Denise. In fact, that`s a good idea. Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- what do you do in a case like this, Ron?
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, first you examine the suitcase as best as possible because, Nancy, a suitcase has a lot of pockets. There could be documents in there. There could be things that date the actual purchase of the suitcase. And they can follow up on all those things and try to identify where the suitcase came from.
GRACE: How about missing people in the area?
SHINDEL: Missing people in the area work good. But Nancy, to get back for a second, I had a case with a natural death where the body was disposed of in a suitcase in Brooklyn in 1989.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I looked at it, it was just, like -- a lot of things went through my head. It`s, like, Oh, my God, that`s big. And it was just -- I mean, it just was there floating (INAUDIBLE) my God, that`s horrible. This could be somebody`s family. And I walked to the fire department and then I said, There`s a suitcase floating in the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hard-shelled suitcase was found floating in the bay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Margarito Real (ph) was walking with his niece on the Embarcadero near Folsom Street when his niece spotted the suitcase in the water just a few feet off shore. He called 911. Firefighters dragged the suitcase onto the rocks at low tide, and using a ladder, police climbed down to examine the suitcase. Real was close enough to watch as investigators opened it. Police say inside the suitcase was the body of a woman tucked in a fetal position who appeared to be in her 30s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we`re going to be looking at it as a homicide or a questionable death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say there was no obvious cause of death. The body was taken to the medical examiner`s office to determine the cause. Police say the suitcase, which appeared to have been in the water for a couple of days, did not have any identifying name tags.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the fire department went down. And then he tried to pull it back, and like, something broke. And then he pull it from the corner, and it kind of, you know, opened. And that`s when I saw, like -- you know, honestly, I don`t want to say (INAUDIBLE) I saw it, but I -- what I saw was, it was, like, a leg. And it was like my skin (ph) instantly just went -- and I screamed, Oh! I just went like this. It`s horrible. It`s horrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Ohio. Hi, Jennifer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. Hey, I have a question for you.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think, with your expertise, that since this was -- this body was unfortunately found in a suitcase that it will at least, you know, somewhat (INAUDIBLE) preserve some DNA evidence, since wasn`t just openly floating in the water?
GRACE: Well, I tell you this much, Jennifer. If there has been a sex assault, you`re going to find DNA. But since she has been in the water, DNA that may have been on the body may be gone by now. Hairs, fibers, touch DNA -- that`s gone because the water has seeped into the suitcase. She`s been in the waves, rocking back and forth pummeling the suitcase. I doubt pretty seriously they`re going to get DNA off her body. The suitcase is going to be a treasure trove of evidence, if it is handled correctly. You can determine the type, the name, where it`s manufactured, where it is sold.
But once they nail down the identity, Jennifer in Ohio, the identity of the woman, they`re going to start with husband, ex, boyfriend, live-in, and go out from there. That`s where they`re going to find the killer, in my estimation.
Now, there`s always random killers, Jennifer in Ohio, somebody that spots you walking down the street, spots you sitting at a red light, spots you playing at the park with your kids, you`re dead. They`re going to get you. But that is extremely rare. That can happen. If that`s what happened here, they may never catch the killer.
A tourist and his little niece get an eyeful of the sights and sounds at San Francisco Bay when he spots a woman`s leg, then manages to lug onto shore an extremely heavy suitcase. Inside, a woman`s body, waterlogged, having been rocked back and forth by the ocean waves for at least two days. Who is the woman in the suitcase?
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, David Cooke -- he is the chief on a special victims unit, Houston County DA`s office -- Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York, Doug Burns, defense attorney, New York.
David Cooke, even if we don`t ever find out who Jane Doe is, if we get DNA on the body or in the body, you can prosecute.
DAVID COOKE, CHIEF, SPECIAL VICTIMS UNIT, HOUSTON COUNTY DA`S OFFICE: Yes, you can, Nancy. And what`s going to help with that is the CODIS database, the Combined Offender DNA Indexing System...
GRACE: Hold on, David Cooke. Everybody is not an expert with these special victims units, all right? You say CODIS. Explain. Break it down.
COOKE: OK. The Combined Defender DNA Indexing System is a nationwide, in fact, international database that contains the DNA profiles of known offenders.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing video. A body has just washed ashore, a woman in a suitcase found by a tourist and his young niece. There you see the suitcase, shrouded in a white sheet, being pulled off the scene on a medical examiner`s gurney and loaded into the waiting van. Is there DNA? Right now, we don`t know who she is, much less who is the killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we`re going to be looking at it as a homicide or a questionable death. Someone went ahead, did something creative and then put the body in a suitcase and then hoped that it was going to go down in the bay and let the fish or whatever take care of it. But right now, we`re going to take care of the body and make sure it gets - - it gets a decent burial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we`re going to be looking at it as a homicide or a questionable death. Someone went ahead, did something creative and then put the body in a suitcase and then hoped that it was going to go down in the bay and let the fish or whatever take care of it. But right now, we`re going to take care of the body and make sure it gets - - it gets a decent burial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, it didn`t work the way the killer planned. The body did wash ashore today, bobbing up along a scenic tourist route there in San Francisco Bay. A man with his little niece finds this, sees a woman`s leg. He said his skin crawled at the sight of it. Look at that tiny suitcase. It looks bigger when you see it in several layers of sheets. How the woman must have been contorted and folded up or dismembered, we don`t know.
Do we know, Matt Zarrell, whether the victim was dismembered before being put in the suitcase?
ZARRELL: Police are saying no, she wasn`t. And they are releasing some new details. We just found out the woman is confirmed to be African- American, likely in her 30s, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist, host of VH-1`s "Dad Camp." Dr. Gardere, what do you make of a perp who goes to the extent of putting a body in a suitcase and throwing it in the water, hoping it washes out to another country or to the bottom of the ocean?
JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Obviously, we`re all thinking there is some sort of foul play. It is some sort of homicide.
GRACE: OK, wait.
GARDERE: But this is someone that has...
GRACE: Jeff, Jeff, Jeff...
GARDERE: Yes?
GRACE: I`ve known you a long time, OK?
GARDERE: As I`ve known you, Nancy.
GRACE: We`re all thinking there was some sort of foul play?
GARDERE: Well, you...
GRACE: What are you talking about? She was murdered...
GARDERE: Nancy...
GRACE: ... and stuffed in a suitcase! That`s the "sort of" foul play.
GARDERE: Nancy...
GRACE: Her body is waterlogged...
GARDERE: Nancy...
GRACE: ... and she washed up on these rocks! What is...
GARDERE: Nancy, you`ve had two...
GRACE: Just start over!
GARDERE: You`ve had two...
GRACE: Just try.
GARDERE: Nancy, you`ve had two of your guests who have said that perhaps they don`t know whether it`s a homicide. I think it is a homicide. So we have to look at all possibilities here. But getting back to your question...
GRACE: Shrink, shrink, shrink...
GARDERE: And -- and -- and -- yes?
GRACE: Are you a cop? No. You`re a shrink. Be a shrink.
GARDERE: And I`m being a shrink. And I love being dressed down by you, but I am a shrink, and my answer to your question is, obviously, this is someone who had complete and total disregard for the victim and not only wanted to get rid of the body because he wanted to get rid of her, but wanted to get rid of all evidence. So it tells me something nefarious...
GRACE: Warning...
GARDERE: ... really happened.
GRACE: ... warning, warning, to whoever did this. California is not afraid of the death penalty!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: You know, you feel like that will never happen to me.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This could, in fact, land Lindsay Lohan behind bars.
LOHAN: It`s a wake-up call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is supposed to be in court tomorrow morning.
LOHAN: I want to be a good role model.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lohan`s attorney says she`s stuck in Paris without her passport.
LOHAN: Yes, I`m that girl.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The actress may now be facing serious jail time. She`s violated the conditions of her probation from a 2007 DUI conviction.
LOHAN: Nobody`s perfect. Everyone has their ups and downs.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The arrest was her second for an alleged DUI in less than three months.
LOHAN: Here in L.A., you hear everyone is going out, you`re like, oh, what`s going to happen if I`m not there that one night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Marsha ruled out, said if she`s not in compliance with her probation requiring alcohol classes that she would go to jail.
LOHAN: You want to be put on some sort of pedestal. And being scrutinized comes with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lindsay won`t be in court tomorrow. Does that mean a bench warrant will be issued for Lohan to go to jail?
LOHAN: There`s only so much people can say. They`re not going to have anything else to say anymore. They don`t have anything else to say anymore. People are going to get -- they`re just going to -- I mean, it`s getting sort of repetitive.
So -- and I just -- and I`ve learned and grown up and, you know, I was going through a hard time at one point, and people were saying, that`s not me, like all sorts of things. That`s fine. But I know that I wasn`t -- you know, I wasn`t taking care of myself as much because I didn`t know how. I was 17 years old.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Second verse same as the first.
To Carlos Diaz, syndicated radio host joining us out of L.A., let me get this straight. So Lindsay Lohan is over in the Cannes Film Festival. I just saw a picture of her, I guess, yesterday out stumbling around partying with some unknown guy.
She`s got to be in court tomorrow morning 8:30. 0800.
CARLOS DIAZ, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST, COVERING STORY: Correct.
GRACE: What else do I need to know? What are her other excuses other than volcanic ash?
DIAZ: It`s either the dog ate her passport or someone stole her passport. You know, the thing is, Nancy, you travel abroad. You know your passport is the most important thing you can have on you when you are traveling overseas, and the fact that she says someone stole her passport - - and let me get this straight.
I mean, I am a big Lindsay Lohan fan, I think she`s an immensely talented actress. I`m saying what I`m saying right now because I do care for her as a person. She needs to get her life together. And to say that someone stole my passport and that`s why I can`t come back --
GRACE: Wait, wait, stop.
DIAZ: -- for my hearing. Come on. Seriously.
GRACE: Stop. Carlos Diaz, you say you care for her as a person. Do you know her?
DIAZ: I`ve interviewed her before and she seems like during interviews --
GRACE: Are you friends?
DIAZ: We`re not friends, no.
GRACE: You care for her as a person. There was a time when everyone felt sorry for her, wanted her to get her life straight, but now thumbing her nose at the court because, isn`t it true, Carlos Diaz, that she knew when she went to Cannes Film Festival --
DIAZ: Right.
GRACE: -- that she had to be in court? It wasn`t a surprise. They didn`t just announce this yesterday.
DIAZ: Right.
GRACE: She`s known all along.
DIAZ: No, I -- and, Nancy, I`m on your side on this one. I think that this is -- that all the blame lies squarely on Lindsay Lohan. How do you go to Cannes Film Festival to promote a film that -- you know, that you desperately need to revive your career but you either lose or you have your passport stolen so you can`t come back for a hearing that could land you in jail?
The judge in this case may be wanting to send a message to all of Hollywood that the judicial system here in Los Angeles is sick and tired of Hollywood stars thinking that they can skirt the system. This is a very important day tomorrow. Lindsay not being there is tragic for her.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Christina in Texas, hi, dear.
CHRISTINA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Nancy. Me and my girlfriend watch you every night. We love you.
GRACE: Hey, I want to tell you something. Thank you for calling in, taking the trouble to call in, and for being with us every night. What do you think about this?
CHRISTINA: I want to know how long they`re going to let her get away with doing whatever she wants. This has been going on for years. She doesn`t do what the judge says. She doesn`t follow her probation. She just does whatever she wants whenever she wants to do it and we constantly see her partying, partying, partying.
GRACE: You know what I think part of the problem is? I`m going to go back to you, Dr. Jeff Gardere. I still think of Lindsay Lohan as that cute little redhead in "Parent Trap." That`s what I think about when I think about Lindsay Lohan.
Remember the remake of "Parent Trap," the "Hayley Mills Show"?
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, HOST OF VH1`S "DAD CAMP": Yes.
GRACE: Where she was adorable, precious, talented, sweet, wonderful. Everything you`d want your little girl to be when she -- when she gets that age. I don`t know how this train wreck happened. But that`s not the case anymore. It`s hard to set all of that aside and deal with the reality of what`s going on.
GARDERE: The bottom line here is that I don`t think she`s ever grown up from that girl. She hasn`t had the proper direction. Her family is completely dysfunctional. Her dad even says she needs help. They need family therapy.
And this is a woman who is out of control behaviorally, has alcohol and drug problems and just has not faced the fact that she really needs help. She is thumbing her nose at everyone including the system, the court systems.
GRACE: Out to Alexis Tereszcuk with Radaronline.com joining us out of L.A. What more can you tell me about the facts? For instance, Alex, why was she supposed to be in court tomorrow morning to start with? What`s the genesis of the court date?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: The judge has ordered her to appear in court. She actually ordered Lindsay to complete an alcohol class every single week, once every seven days.
Lindsay has not been in compliance with this. She is doing her alcohol education classes kind of whenever she feels like, maybe three in a row and then 15 days later, 20 days later. So the judge wanted to see her to talk to her about this.
The judge is fed up with this. In fact, we learned at Radaronline that she is going to require Lindsay to wear an alcohol monitoring bracelet once she gets back to court, that she`s going to have to wear that until the next hearing is set.
GRACE: OK. So this was what a status -- status report for the judge?
TERESZCUK: Yes, from her probation hearing which stems from her two DUIs that happened back in 2007.
GRACE: Well, here`s the thing -- let`s unleash the lawyers, David Cooke, special victims unit, Houston County DA`s Office, Atlanta, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney in New York, Doug Burns, defense attorney in New York.
Alex Sanchez, she`s already on probation. That was throwing her a bone. That was doing her a favor. All right? She`s already had a favor. She`s used up her favor. What`s going to happen now?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, we need to keep this case in perspective.
GRACE: OK.
SANCHEZ: Lindsay Lohan is not some major criminal violator that --
GRACE: You`re right.
SANCHEZ: -- has destroyed people`s lives.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, you`re absolutely right.
SANCHEZ: That being said -- that being said, she is supposed to comply with the conditions that the judge set down. She`s going to -- she is supposed to be in court tomorrow. If she can`t be there because she lost her passport, I mean, everybody is assuming she`s making this up. It`s not outside the realm of possibility that you could lose your passport.
I would say give her the benefit of the doubt. Let her come in and let the judge monitor her progress on how she is doing in the program.
GRACE: Well, I thought that`s what the -- the judge had been doing?
SANCHEZ: Well, she`s supposed to be there -- and from what I understand, she hasn`t been doing that badly in the program anyway. Yes, it hasn`t been perfect. She`s missed a few classes but overall she`s been -- I would say -- 85 percent in compliance to that program.
GRACE: Doug Burns, how hard is it when you`ve been thrown a life raft by a judge? All you have to do is go to class. That`s it, OK? No jail time, nothing for all of her shenanigans. That`s all you have to do and you still miss class. It`s not like she`s working, Doug.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, the most important point of all is what you were saying earlier.
GRACE: It`s not like you who have to report to court 8:00 in the morning.
BURNS: Yes --
GRACE: Or me who have to report to the twins at 5:00 in the morning and work at night. No. It`s not like that. She is footloose and fancy free. No job, which is her own doing. All she has to do is go to court and go to her classes.
BURNS: Right. But the point I wanted to make --
GRACE: There`s the ankle bracelet. I`m surprised she hasn`t jimmied that off.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: Go ahead.
BURNS: The point I want to make is that Alex is right. I read some stuff that said that --
GRACE: Wait. Whoa, whoa, wait, Doug. Are you looking at a monitor?
BURNS: I`m looking at the camera.
GRACE: I usually am very ill when my line producer shows a bikini shot like this for absolutely no reason but check it out.
BURNS: I`ll tell you what.
GRACE: There you go.
BURNS: That is definitely --
GRACE: She is flaunting the ankle bracelet. You know if I had an ankle bracelet I`d hide under the bed. I certainly would not want a photo to live on the Internet that my twins would see one day. An ankle bracelet.
Go ahead. I can`t wait to hear this, Doug Burns.
BURNS: Yes, well, that picture looks better than I do. But I tell you what, the key point here is she only had a few classes to do. Something like --
GRACE: What is she doing with a gun? Put that back up. Why is she being photographed -- you know what, I hope the judge sees this. Are you listening, Judge?
Go ahead, Burns.
BURNS: Anyway, the point is that she had four classes to complete, OK? So instead of completing the classes, she flies over to France. That right there is the problem even though technically that doesn`t violate her probation.
But, I`ll tell you what, when she gets back in front of the judge, she -- the judge -- is going to cross-examine her like there`s no tomorrow on what happened and it`s like everything else in criminal law. Either it`s true or she lied.
GRACE: I`ll tell you one thing. She`s got a lawyer that`s going to be rich off this.
Everybody, quick break. We`re taking your calls live. But tonight I want to pause and welcome to this world the beautiful baby girl of our Elizabeth, the backbone of our show, born 8 pounds, 10 ounces.
Malia Elizabeth is now home with mommy, Daddy Dan, and older brothers Koa, Tai, and Kimo.
Tonight, as we are missing you, Elizabeth, we celebrate.
Welcome to the world, sweet Malia, baby Malia.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You have always been the topic of the headlines, constantly.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news, Lindsay Lohan will not be showing up in court tomorrow, something she was ordered to do by a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lindsay Lohan is stuck at the Paris airport apparently with no passport.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The questions swirling, will a warrant be issued for Lindsay Lohan`s arrest?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The actress says someone stole her passport in Cannes and the timing couldn`t be worse.
LOHAN: I know it`s true and they know it`s true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s supposed to be in court tomorrow morning.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The judge reportedly said she`ll issue a warrant if Lohan doesn`t show up at 8:30 sharp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more passes for her, the judge said.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The hearing to determine whether or not Lohan`s complying with her 2007 probation, stemming from a drunken driving conviction.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s the emergency?
LOHAN: We`re being followed by a GMC, the gentleman jumped out of the car. Oh, my god, they`re following us. We need help.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The deputy DA has said she`ll seek up to 180 days of jail time for Lohan if she has violated her probation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her lawyers are doing everything in her power to get back perhaps on a private jet but she said she doesn`t think there`s any possibility of Lindsay showing up in court tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is it too little too late?
LOHAN: What am I supposed to do?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Starlet Lindsay Lohan going to jail.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, straight out to Cindy in Ohio. Hi, Cindy.
CINDY, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. I love you. You`re a hero.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. I`m not but thank you for saying that. What`s your question, dear?
CINDY: I want to know if (INAUDIBLE) like every other celebrity, if they`re going to just throw the book at her or make her go through an intense rehab program because I think she needs it.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Cindy? I doubt pretty seriously that she`s going to take any rehab to heart because she`s been to all these super expensive ones, you know, $60,000 a week. They`re like being at a spa. Nothing has worked so far according to reports.
What do you think? What`s your prediction, Alex Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: I think tomorrow when she comes to court the lawyer is going to ask the judge to stay the --
GRACE: OK. Reality. Reality drip, Alex.
SANCHEZ: To give -- to give Lindsay Lohan a chance to come in.
GRACE: This is the point. She`s not coming to court.
SANCHEZ: But, you know, I --
GRACE: She is in at the Cannes Film Festival.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She`s not going to be in court.
SANCHEZ: I object to you -- you know, Nancy, I object to you and I object to the audience believing that somehow Lindsay Lohan should be used to teach Hollywood a lesson. What are they talking about?
GRACE: Nobody said that.
SANCHEZ: She`s a young kid. She`s in a program.
GRACE: Nobody said that.
SANCHEZ: She`s --
GRACE: And she`s not a young kid.
SANCHEZ: Maybe you didn`t say it but a lot of other people are believing that.
GRACE: She`s 23.
SANCHEZ: Yes, she`s in a program. She`s largely compliant and she says she lost her passport. What`s the big deal? Let her try to come in and convince the judge that, in fact, she really lost the passport. I don`t see what the problem is.
GRACE: OK, you know what? David Cooke, maybe you can step down off the soapbox Sanchez is plopped on right now and tell me just a calm, rational prediction of what`s going to happen.
That`s what Cindy in Ohio wanted to hear. Bring it down a notch, Sanchez. Go ahead, Cooke.
DAVID COOKE, CHIEF, SPECIAL VICTIMS UNIT, HOUSTON COUNTY DA`S OFFICE: Nancy, I think the most compassionate thing the judge could do would actually be to send her to jail for 180 days.
I don`t think he -- the judge will do that but I think the most compassionate thing the judge could do would be to send her to jail to get the message across that she can`t keep flapping the court and she can`t keep ignoring her responsibilities.
I think the judge is likely to revoke a few weeks that would be my prediction.
GRACE: Yes.
COOKE: But --
GRACE: I think you`re right. The judge is going to do something, probably not anything ham fisted.
To Brad Lamm, board registered interventionist at Bradlamm.com, author of "How to Change Someone You Love."
Weigh in, Brad Lamm.
BRAD LAMM, CERTIFIED INTERVENTIONIST, AUTHOR OF "HOW TO CHANGE SOMEONE YOU LOVE": Nancy, I`d like to see the judge toss a book or two at her and have her go to a treatment center, not jail, but have her go to a treatment center like Impact in Pasadena which is like a low-priced, really nitty- gritty, get-your-life-together type of rehab. That`s what I`m hoping for.
GRACE: To Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline.com. Alexis, didn`t her father just order some group of police barging into her home for a raid of some sort?
TERESZCUK: He did. He took the Los Angeles County Sheriff --
GRACE: How did he do that?
TERESZCUK: He went to the sheriff and said that he was worried about her younger sister Ali who is under 18. He was worried about her safety, and he is her father, both of their fathers, so the sheriffs went along with him to Lindsay`s house.
She was furious about this. She lives in a building with a security guard at the door and she said that there was no reason that her father should have even been allowed up to her house.
The security guard let him in because it was the cops. They came -- they didn`t find anything wrong with the way that Lindsay and her sister were living. Her sister doesn`t live with her full time. Her sister lives with her mom back on the East Coast. And she was visiting Lindsay. And so they left. And they didn`t do anything.
But Michael has been trying to do everything that he can possibly think of to get some sort of intervention up for Lindsay. He`s written a letter to the judge. He wants the judge to put her in a rehab center that`s in New York that he says is very low profile and very private and that she could get help there and get family therapy.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, what about illegal drugs? Will they show up in Lohan`s system? How long, for instance, does cocaine stay in your system?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, it depends what kind of drugs she has. Alcohol is eliminated from the system at a very relatively fast relatively fast level, within 8 hours or 12 hours if she was not heavily intoxicated, there would be no alcohol. Other drugs, last for several days, and some of them for weeks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOHAN: I`m a normal person. I can handle going out for the day with people with cameras in front of me. It`s something you want when you come into this business. So there`s -- you complain about it, it`s like why did you get into this?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will the next role actress Lindsay Lohan lands be real life inmate?
LOHAN: I feel like there`s always people that are going to say certain things so I just try to acknowledge it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The actress may now be facing serious jail time if she`s violated the conditions of her probation from a 2007 DUI conviction.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video of Lindsay Lohan from Hollywood.TV, and we`ve got that poster of her when she was in the "Hayley Mills`" remake of "Parent Trap." That`s the Lindsay Lohan I always envision. I`ve seen that movie about five times.
Out to the lines, Jamie, Pennsylvania. Hi, Jamie.
JAMIE, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy, it`s wonderful to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
JAIME: It`s been years. I`ve been trying to get through to you. And --
GRACE: Thank you for continuing to try.
JAMIE: You and your twins are wonderful.
GRACE: Well, I`m blessed.
JAMIE: I love you all. They`re beautiful.
GRACE: I`m blessed. Thank you.
JAMIE: Yes, you are. I have a comment and just wanting your opinion on Lindsay. It seems that she just enjoys the talk. She`s just putting her hand up raising my hand, and saying, hey, look at me. Look what I`m going to do now, look what I`m going to do next.
And she complains everyone has nothing else to talk about so they repeatedly talk about her? But she`s repeatedly doing everything over and over again. They really need to put her in jail where she belongs and get her straight.
GRACE: What about it, Dr. Gardere? What`s your response to that?
GARDERE: I absolutely agree with your caller. What`s going on here is that she`s behaving badly and instead --
GRACE: OK, wait a minute, wait a minute. Dana, please take down the video of her with the fake blood dripping. Thank you.
GARDERE: Yes.
GRACE: Don`t need to see that.
GARDERE: Yes. Kind of takes away the vision of "The Parent Trap" thing.
GRACE: Yes. It`s kind of ruining that in my head. Go ahead.
GARDERE: Yes. This is a young woman who has serious issues, behaving badly, alcoholic use, perhaps drug issues, but she`s getting positive reinforcement from a lot of the press and a lot of the fans that -- that can`t get enough of her, and so in some ways, in a very crazy way, it just spurs her to do more and more because she gets this adulation.
GRACE: Got it.
GARDERE: She needs to hear more like from people like you, Nancy, telling it the way it is.
GRACE: Doug Burns, if you`re the lawyer tomorrow morning in front of the judge, in a nutshell, what do you say?
BURNS: Yes. Very simply, Your Honor, given the controversy, I`d you -- if you issue a warrant to stay it for 48 hours, and I will produce her here within that time framework.
GRACE: Carlos Diaz, syndicated radio host. What`s going to happen tomorrow?
DIAZ: Tomorrow she`s not going to be in court, and it`s -- it`s really a lot of Hollywood will be watching to see what the judge`s decision will be. Will the judge throw the book at her, or will the judge be lenient in this case?
GRACE: Lenient again. Thank you, Carlos, and Alexis and Brad Lamm.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant James Nolen, 25, Alvin, Texas, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, Army Achievement Medal.
Loved riding bikes with his son, cooking. Dreamed of helping his pregnant wife decorate the baby girl`s nursery. Leaves behind grieving parents Kim and Scott, brothers Jeremy, Jonathan, widow Rachel, son Will, and a baby girl he never met, Jamie.
James Nolen, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially you, and congratulations, Jane Velez-Mitchell, an award named in your honor. The Soroptimist and Northwest Coalition Against Trafficking establishing the Jane Velez- Mitchell Journalism Award for reporting ongoing violence against women and girls.
Everyone, please congratulate Jane.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
