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Campbell Brown

Military Religious Persecution; Mexican President Calderon Speaks to Congress; America's Schools in Crisis

Aired May 22, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: CNN Primetime begins right now.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN HOST: Hi, everybody. It's been a busy news week. In this hour, we'll catch you up on some of the stories that you might have missed.

Our number one international story is of course the battle over immigration. This week, Mexico's president, Felipe Calderon, blasted Arizona's new immigration law in a speech to a joint session of Congress and got a standing ovation - well, from Democrats anyway.

I asked former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright if this country's policy on immigration is giving us a black eye internationally.

Our top military story, my exclusive with a soldier stationed at Fort Hood, a Muslim who makes some troubling charges. He says he's been repeatedly harassed and mocked because of his religion.

Tonight, we have new developments in his case.

Our number one domestic story, our special series "America's Schools in Crisis". We take a look at the problems our schools are facing from massive budget cuts across the country to the debate over what we teach our kids.

And our top story about the way we live today, big surprises from a new study of how babies view right and wrong. We're going to tell you what your baby may be thinking.

But we begin with the presidents of Mexico and the United States on the same page on immigration. Standing together in the Rose Garden, Presidents Obama and Calderon trashed Arizona's controversial new immigration law this week. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the United States of America, no law-abiding person, be they an American citizen, a legal immigrant or a visitor or tourist from Mexico, should ever be subject to suspicion simply because of what they look like.

FELIPE CALDERON, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We oppose firmly the SB1070 Arizona law, given in fair principles that are partial and discriminatory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: President Obama has called for an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, but does he have the political clout right now to make that happen?

Madeleine Albright was Secretary of State during the Clinton administration, and I spoke with her from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Madam Secretary, so good to see you.

What have your thoughts been as you watched the debate over Arizona's immigration law play out in the last month, especially as an immigrant yourself?

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's great to be with you, Campbell.

As an immigrant, I find this issue a very difficult one. Nothing was more important in my life than having become an American, and this country has been built on many, many immigrants contributing everything that we can to the greatness of this country. And I definitely agree with President Obama when he says that the system at the moment is broken.

And I think it puts a very difficult situation in terms of our relations with our close neighbor, Mexico. It clearly is a very difficult issue both in terms of foreign and domestic policy.

BROWN: So, explain though - and I want to get into the - the impact it does have around the world - but - but why? You look at the polling, and it - and it does seem like a majority of Americans do back the measure. What do you think is driving this attitude?

ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I'm not a pundit, so I really can't answer some of the political part of this. But I think that always, in a period when there are economic difficulties, that people try to find some way to find somebody who's to blame. But I think, actually, if one looks at the history of America, it has been strengthened by people coming from overseas and literally contributing their blood, sweat, and tears to the building of this great country.

So, I hope very much that we can not have a - an approach or a law in one state that, in fact, reflects on the feelings of the whole country, because my sense is that this is not something that is overwhelming, in terms of - Americans - most Americans are immigrant. And so, I think that we have to get a system that is fair for people and have a - an open and fair immigration policy and be a country of laws that we are.

BROWN: But - but, as you said, you know, it's not just about Arizona, when you look at how it may be playing to the rest of the world. They see this as something that America has done as opposed to just a state in America, don't you think?

And is it not just Mexico that - that is deeply concerned about this, but how does it play with the rest of the international community?

ALBRIGHT: Well, it doesn't play well.

But I have to tell you, Campbell, one of the issues just generally around the world are immigration policies. I find this in other places. I've just spent an awful lot of time in Europe working on this project about a new strategic concept for NATO, and there are people coming in from a variety of countries and it is a big issue. We're a very mobile world.

But I think America has been known for being the beacon of freedom and the Statue of Liberty, and give me your tired and your hungry, and so I - I think it's sad. I think a lot of people do understand that it is just one state, and they are looking to Congress and the president to rectify it.

BROWN: Let - let me change focus, and I want to ask you about something that you have devoted a lot of time to lately. You are testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the need for a new strategy for NATO. And this is, of course, the 28-country military alliance that the U.S. has been part of for 61 years.

In a word -- you can't do it in a word, but - but what, if you can narrow it down, what, in your view, really needs to change here?

ALBRIGHT: Well, this is an alliance that was set up originally to fight the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union is not our enemy, and yet, there are a huge number of problems internationally. Fighting terrorism, nuclear proliferation, cyber security, energy security, and we need a lot of friends in terms of dealing with those kinds of issues.

And so what we are doing is trying to make NATO an alliance for the 21st century, and looking forward and seeing how to make sure that the basic countries that are members of NATO feel safe and secure and also that we can work outside of the area in order to protect all of us against these global threats.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

When we come back, our exclusive report on a Fort Hood soldier's claims of anti-Muslim harassment. After he shared the story with me, he says the army was not happy. You're going to see the interview, he says, that got him in trouble next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This week, a model soldier said that he is suing the military.

Twenty-year-old army specialist Zachari Klawonn has an exemplary service record and has earned the praise of his commanders and fellow soldiers. But after two years in the army, Specialist Klawonn, an Arabic-speaking Muslim who grew up in Florida, claims he has been repeatedly harassed with religious slurs, physical threats and destruction of his Koran.

It's a pattern, he says, that got even worse after the Fort Hood Massacre last November.

In an exclusive interview, I spoke to Specialist Klawonn, his attorney, and his commanding officer. Specialist Klawonn described what he called a pattern of harassment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SPC. ZACHARI KLAWONN, U.S. ARMY: I mean, just within the first week of basic training it was evident that there was this vibe, this sense of terrorism and Islam as one, which is obviously false.

Within the first week, you know, the Islamic service that was held at my basic training installation was basically made a mockery of. When I raised my hand and said that I was willing to attend, it was - I was automatically brought out of the group and, you know, singled out and humiliated. Absolutely.

BROWN: And I know in basic training you said you were also picked out of all the soldiers to act the role of a terrorist, right?

KLAWONN: Sure. This is -- this is at the common - this is at the very end of basic training, where we, you know, take all the skills and tasks that we learned throughout the - the training cycle and put them all together to, I guess, the final test, the ultimate test.

Well, upon us getting there, I was informed - ordered that I was going to play the head terrorist in this training scenario, and that was my sole role.

BROWN: Now, you currently serve, as we mentioned earlier, at Fort Hood, where just six months ago, Major Nidal Hasan went on a shooting rampage. Thirteen people were killed.

What has it been like for you on the base since the shootings?

KLAWONN: It was pretty constant before that, but immediately following that, you know, that incident, I had a lot of guys, you know, approaching me, asking me to justify the act, which I, you know, immediately condemned.

It even got even more severe where -- when 2:00 in the morning one night, a certain individual approached my barracks room while I was sleeping and pounded on my door and left a very, very discriminatory note for me to read.

BROWN: Let me bring in your brigade commander from Fort Hood, who is Colonel Jimmy Jenkins, and he's joining us right now on the phone from Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

And, Colonel, what is your response? Do you believe the Army has failed to - to act strongly enough to protect Specialist Klawonn from the kind of harassment he says he's experiencing? COL. JIMMY JENKINS, U.S. ARMY: Well, actually, I think we've done everything we can do to protect him. As a matter of fact, that's my sole goal, is to make sure he and the other 2,200 soldiers in the brigade - their safety is paramount. I'm charged with the combat readiness of the brigade, and if my soldiers don't feel safe, then I have failed.

So, you know, I have worked personally with Specialist Klawonn on a quite a few occasions to see what I could do to make him feel safer. And - and, in each case, I thought I was making headway, based on his responses to me and the - the feedback I got, but it's, you know, it's not like we're done.

We're going to continue to do what it takes to make him feel safe and, as importantly, make him feel that he's not discriminated against, nor any other Muslim or any soldier of any religious faith is discriminated against, for that matter.

BROWN: Specialist Klawonn, what do you say to that?

KLAWONN: With all due respect, I really - I really feel it's when the media cameras come out that a lot of these proposals also come out that are not followed through on. And it's - it's just another example, and this has happened on numerous occasions. And I - you know, hope for the best, and I hope that we can get to that understanding and that - that justice that I'm seeking.

And my ultimate goal by - you know, with this lawsuit and working with the Military Religious Freedom Foundation is to really have the Army, you know, find that moral compass and start using it, one that the American people and the Constitution have provided for them. I mean, these are the same, you know, constitutional rights and liberties that I enlisted in the Army to protect and, you know, defend.

BROWN: Randy, you - you handled cases like this before. The military has very strict rules and protocol to follow in these cases.

You heard the colonel there. I mean, they say they've done that, they have followed those rules. What's the evidence that they haven't?

RANDAL MATHIS, ATTORNEY, MATHIS & DONHEISER: Well, I haven't met with the colonel yet, but, with all due respect, I think they have not. Zachari has been complaining about these problems and the various things that have happened to him, which clearly amount to discrimination, for months and months now and they have not been able to bring it to a stop.

And what hasn't been mentioned so far is that Zachari's had to move off the base and live in off-base housing in order to ensure his safety. Now, if the Army can't ensure the safety of one of its own soldiers simply because of its religion, something is wrong.

BROWN: So - so, Colonel, let me bring you back in here, because I know you were involved in the decision to move him off of the base, to move Specialist Klawonn off the base. Why was that decision made? JENKINS: Well, I brought Klawonn into my office with his chain of command on the 1st of March to talk to him about the big concerns he had and the investigation that was going on on the incident he alluded to at 2:00 in the morning, and I wanted to see what he felt. I wanted to talk to him personally.

And the first thing we talked about was services. He didn't - he didn't feel comfortable with the services that were offered off-post. He felt that the imam was too radical. He was a little more conservative than that. He actually worked on educating me some about his religious faith.

And then I said, well, how - what I can do to help make you feel safe? He said, I'm not sure. I said, well, let's - let's pursue some options. Would you like another roommate? Would you like to move to another room? Would it - would you feel better in another barracks? What about moving off-post? Do any of these appeal to you?

And he liked the option of moving off-post, and I said, OK, if that's what you want to do. And I worked to sort that process out. It takes a while, but we will start that immediately.

So, this was a - an option that we all talked about that he felt most comfortable about. And if he wants to move back in the barracks, we will definitely find a place. And his safety is - is my number-one concern. I will make sure it happens, and I think we have made sure it has happened to this point.

BROWN: Specialist Klawonn, let me let you respond to that.

KLAWONN: The vibe that I got in that meeting when I was there on the 1st of March wasn't necessarily that it was my direct decision, but necessarily that, you know, my brigade commander was making a proposal for me to move off-base.

And when - you know, as a lower-ranking guy, when a full bird (ph) colonel, you know, makes a proposal, you - you take that into consideration. I thought that was the general consensus of, you know, everybody in the room. That's really what I thought.

BROWN: But let - let me ask you to go a little more big-picture here, Zachari, because - let's assume these smaller issues are worked out. What ultimately do you want to come out of this by filing this lawsuit?

KLAWONN: Again, I mean, there's a lot of things that come into it, but, ultimately, for the Army to take a, you know, a good hard look at that moral compass and start using it. You know, these - these are the constitutional rights and liberties that I got into the Army to - to defend and protect. This is - this clear-cut religious and cultural discrimination that needs to be addressed.

BROWN: I thank each of you for your time tonight. Really appreciate you all three joining us. Thanks very much for being with us.

MATHIS: Thank you for having us. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: After that exclusive interview on this program, Specialist Klawonn said he paid a price for coming on and sharing his claims of harassment.

We're going to have those new developments when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Less than 24 hours after Fort Hood Army Specialist Zachari Klawonn told me his story of alleged harassment because he is a Muslim, Klawonn claims the Army yanked him from his unit and told him he was going to be reassigned. Where exactly has yet to be determined.

Klawonn believes he's being punished for appearing on CNN, though he admits his superiors told him he had done nothing wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Specialist Klawonn is back with us right now, along with Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, and also Thomas Kenniff, a former military JAG and now a criminal defense attorney here with me in New York.

Specialist Klawonn, let me start with you. You were on the show three nights ago and the very next day you got called in by your superiors. Describe what happened.

KLAWONN: Yes, Campbell. I was directed by my first sergeant to report to the three corps sergeant major's office with my chain of command there, my sergeant major and my section sergeant. During that meeting, I was told that I was going to be moved from the unit and I was told it wasn't my fault. I was told it wasn't due to bad leadership.

He looked - the command sergeant major looked my sergeant major in the face and said you're going to be losing Specialist Klawonn. That's what happened that day.

BROWN: So - so - the Army tells us, though - and this is from tonight - that this is not a punishment, that they are giving you a choice of whether to move, and I do want to read a statement that they sent over.

It says, quote, "Specialist Klawonn's commanding officer has taken the unusual step of offering him new duties that will benefit him and the Army. One option is to move him to the Fort Hood chaplain's office where he could help shape the spiritual fitness program for Muslim soldiers and family members. The other was to move him to another unit in preparation for his next assignment at Fort Sill in Oklahoma.

These options were offered in good faith, not as a directive or an act of punishment. The decision to accept is clearly Specialist Klawonn's." I mean, is that how you viewed it, as a choice, and -

KLAWONN: No.

BROWN: No?

KLAWONN: Absolutely no - absolutely not. Even following the meeting, I requested to my chain of command to utilize the open door policy, to basically, you know, fight for the fact that -- to fight that I could just stay in the unit.

BROWN: So you do want to stay in the unit?

KLAWONN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The - the headway that I've made thus far in the unit as far as, you know, moving forward as a progressive solution to, like, Muslim rights, and, you know, addressing the cultural training issues, you know, I've made a big impact on that. I'm moving forward on that. And to leave the unit would wipe all that out. I'm going to start with a clean slate.

BROWN: Tom, you've - you've been through, or you've witnessed situations like this, I guess, maybe not exactly like this. But - but is the military following the right procedure here?

THOMAS KENNIFF, FORMER MILITARY JAG: Well, it sounds like what they're proposing is a safety transfer, which is not unusual in the military, and Mr. Weinstein's a JAG guy and he could speak to this. I mean, when you're dealing with a crime victim - it's very typical with rape victims in the military to get them transferred to another unit.

Now, my understanding, as far as that the allegations that Specialist Klawonn has made, is that his safety is jeopardized in this current location. He said that he received threatening notes, either at his barracks or on his vehicle, that he's been the subject of several other harassing acts that have made him fear for his safety.

It seems that the command offering him a transfer, which is not a demotion, simply a relocation, where he may not face these issues isn't punishment. It's probably them trying to fasten a, you know, practical result for - for what he's alleging.

BROWN: So, Mikey, let - let me bring you into this, because I know you want to make the change of duties a part of your lawsuit now against the Army. But, you know, what - what Tom just outlined sounds pretty reasonably, and don't you have to sort of prove that -- that this is punishment in some way? And how do you do that?

MICHAEL WEINSTEIN, MILITARY RELIGIOUS FREEDOM FEDERATION: Well - and I agree with my - my colleague there, Tom. In the case of a rape or some of the sort of violent act or personal situation of significant magnitude, a safety transfer is common.

But, listen, we're the Military Religious Military Freedom Foundation. We have nearly 18,000 active duty sailors, soldiers, marines and airmen who are our clients, and we see this pattern over and over again. When a young enlisted or officer, troop decides to stand up and speak truth to power, it's amazing. It's like, hey, you've won the lottery. We're kicking you out of your unit.

And let's not forget that Specialist Klawonn received an official counseling form yesterday, which is a black mark on his record which heretofore had been completely pristine, so much so that he was the only soldier in his unit to qualify, you know, to try - to try out for the Special Forces.

So this is clearly, we know it to be punitive, retributive -

BROWN: All right.

WEINSTEIN: -- to be clear reprisal. We've seen this over and over again and we're not going to allow it.

BROWN: Specialist Klawonn, let me give you the last word here. I mean, what - how do you want to see this play out? Obviously, even if you - you get what you want, staying in your unit, filing this lawsuit, I mean, do - are you going to feel like you've won?

KLAWONN: Look, I just want to clarify one thing. During the meeting, there was no talk of safety whatsoever. I was told that this was a leadership decision through the history that - that has built up with me and the unit.

There was never any talk of safety. There was never any talk of a choice. This was - I was told this was a leadership decision.

BROWN: Many thanks to all of you. Thank you.

KLAWONN: Thank you for your time.

KENNIFF: Thanks, Campbell.

WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up, the kids are good, the schools are not. We're going to go to Chicago to see if the government's new public school fixes are actually working.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Don Lemon. Here are your headlines this hour.

An American team is going to join the investigation into the crash of an Air India Boeing 737 that killed 158 people. Eight people survived when the plane overshot the runway at the airport in Mangalore.

The jet, which had taken off from Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, crashed into a ravine before bursting into flames.

BP is preparing for its next attempt to stop the gushing oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico. Company officials will try a top kill, where they'll pump heavy drilling fluids into the well and try to seal it with cement, but it wouldn't happen until early next week, possibly on Tuesday.

The mothers of three American hikers detained in Iran returned empty- handed today from that visit. During the trip, they met with their sons and daughter, but couldn't persuade authorities to release the detained hikers. It was the first time the women had seen their children in 10 months.

But before leaving they asked to speak with Iran's president and supreme leader. Both requests were denied.

Those are your headlines this hour. We'll have more on these stories tonight at 10:00 P.M. Eastern. CAMPBELL BROWN continues right now.

BROWN: They are called dropout factories, and they are the worst of our nation's failing schools. So what do you do with them? That's part of our special series on "America Schools in Crisis".

The Obama administration is spending $4 billion to try to improve bad schools. To qualify for the funding, districts have these options - close the school and send the students to a better one; fire the teachers; change principals; or turn the school over to a charter operation. It's a page out of the Education Secretary's Chicago playbook.

Soledad O'Brien went to Arne Duncan's old district to see how some of these solutions have played out there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every year, Chicago marks the start of school with one of the biggest annual parades in the country.

In 2008, Jordan Norwood was named King of the Parade for being a model student.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jordan, did you do your homework?

JORDAN NORWOOD, FORMER MODEL STUDENT: No.

O'BRIEN: Just two years ago, Jordan was academic royalty, but today he's struggling. One reason, his schools keep closing down.

JOSEPHINE NORWOOD, MOTHER: They really don't know the really true impact that it does to a family, to a child, to a parent that wants her child to succeed.

Have a good day. Love you!

O'BRIEN: It's a story of good intentions and unintended consequences. Timothy Knowles is the director of Chicago's Urban Education Institute.

TIMOTHY KNOWLES, URBAN EDUCATION INSTITUTE: Children were in schools which had been failing for generations, and the district made a sensible decision to close them. However, they were surrounded by equally failing schools and some of the children were transferred into those schools.

O'BRIEN: Not just some. There were was no district policy requiring that students from shuttered schools be transferred to better schools, so they weren't. Most ended up in equally bad schools with predictable results. And yet the Chicago plan could be a model for the nation.

ARNE DUNCAN, EDUCATION SECRETARY: We have closed schools for academic failure when we needed to do that. Those are not easy decisions to make.

O'BRIEN: President Barack Obama wanted an education secretary who wasn't afraid to take radical, even controversial action to improve schools. He got that with Arne Duncan, the Chicago district's former CEO.

(on camera): So you say you have to do something dramatic. Close a school -- considered dramatic?

DUNCAN: Marginal change is not the solution.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): In the seven years he ran the district, Duncan shut down dozens of struggling schools.

(on camera): You got some flak when research came out that the kids who have been sent when the schools closed to another school, went to an equally crappy school.

DUNCAN: When you go from one low-performing school to marginally better, yes, you're not going to have big benefits.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): So Duncan shifted his policy but tried something equally dramatic. He called it "turnaround." Duncan started turnarounds in earnest in 2006 with Sherman Elementary, a school that was in real need of help. Ask any parent.

LADONNA BREWER, MOTHER: There was no stability with the kids, the learning. And my kids were bringing home good grades, but they weren't being taught.

O'BRIEN (on camera): Describe for me exactly what was done in Sherman. You closed the school.

DUNCAN: Children stayed, came with another team of phenomenal teachers, principals, who just had a real commitment.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): In other words, Duncan fired almost every adult at Sherman, and with the help of the non-profit Academy for Urban School Leadership, brought in a new principal, new union teachers and staff.

LIONELL ALLEN, SHERMAN PRINCIPAL: Gentlemen, make sure your shirts are tucked in.

O'BRIEN: Principal Lionell Allen took the job when he was just 28.

(on camera): Do you feel that the school has been successful?

ALLEN: We know we can't crown ourselves, you know, champions, in a sense. We are not where we want to be, but happy with the progress that we've made so far.

O'BRIEN: Sherman's hallways are orderly and attendance is up. Test scores, too. Still, only a little over half its students pass the state test.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got one.

O'BRIEN: But Secretary Duncan says the change at Sherman is proof turnarounds work.

DUNCAN: Same children, same poverty, unfortunately, same violence in the community. In three or four short years, the number of students meeting state standards has basically doubled. Does it take going way beyond the call of duty? Absolutely. But it is also absolutely possible.

O'BRIEN: The district is in the process of turning around dozens of schools and while they're still closing schools, they're closing fewer. And for Lionell Allen at the turnaround school of Sherman, the turnaround was just the beginning. He soon discovered there was a larger and more daunting problem ahead.

In America, Soledad O'Brien, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next, some answers. We're going to put two education pioneers to the test. Bill Bennett and Geoffrey Canada tackle a big question: What's the one thing that would turn around our failing schools?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The nation's broken schools, do you just close the bad ones or try to save them and make them better? And most importantly, what about the kids? This week I spoke to Geoffrey Canada, president and CEO of Harlem Children's Zone, and CNN contributor Bill Bennett, who served as education secretary in the Reagan administration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEOFFREY CANADA, PRES & CEO, HARLEM CHILDREN ZONE: I think that under some circumstances, you would say, Well, the experiment hurt this particular child and maybe some other kids, and should we do it? But here's what I got from that piece. The idea was to send this child from a failing school into a better school. There were no better schools. The schools were lousy. So where you have a situation where all of the schools are lousy, we have a real crisis.

BROWN: Bill, Arne Duncan, who, of course, is now the secretary of education, there came up with this alternate plan to keep the failing schools open but replace them with new teachers and administrators. Do you think that that should be kind of a nationwide model?

BILL BENNETT, FMR. EDUCATION SECRETARY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, maybe. It all depends. I agree very much with Geoffrey. There's no point in continuing to do the same things over and over again that have failed and expect anything other than massive failure. Try things that work.

The only thing I'd say different from Geoffrey, and it doesn't disagree, but I hope he will regard as adding on, is we do have some sense of what works. What he has done has worked. The Harlem Village Academy with Deborah Kinney (ph) has worked. The KIP schools work. It's not as if we're operating in some arcane part of, you know, human existence discovery on some foreign planet. These are our children. We do have some sense of how to educate them, how to hold people accountable in their schools for their education, and we have learned some things.

BROWN: So Geoffrey, what is it? What's the secret sauce? I mean, there's so much focus on getting rid of bad teachers. Explain to us, is that the key, in your view? Is finding good teachers -- and how do you define what a good teacher is? And how did you find them for Harlem Children's Zone?

CANADA: Well, I mean, I think, Campbell, that you hit on a lot of the keys. I think all of us in education understand that your workforce, the people who produce for children, are the teachers. And the ability to find good teachers and retain those teachers and make sure those teachers are delivering, I think is the key to our schools getting better.

Where you have systems that it is impossible to judge teachers because they won't allow you to use test data to even see if the teachers are good -- just take our word for it, even though all the kids are failing -- that's the kind of insanity that goes on in public education. Where -- no matter how bad you are as a teacher, we cannot get rid of you. That, to me, is a travesty. And if the nation was wasn't at stake, meaning if we don't educate these kids, we're going to drown in paying for jails and prisons, I'd say let that go.

It's time for us to be sensible about this and do the right thing and say these simple reforms have to happen if we're going to improve education in America.

BROWN: Bill, let me be more specific because I talked to you about this, I know, the last time that you were on, the Rhode Island school district...

BENNETT: Yes.

BROWN: ... that planned -- had planned to fire all of their teachers. It was applauded by a lot of people, including the president. And then this week, we learn that those teachers are actually being kept on after making some concessions.

I mean, does that prove, I guess, just how hard it is to make the kind of systemic change in the system that Geoffrey's talking about? BENNETT: Yes, it is. It is hard to make systemic change. We need a revolution. But yes, there's always a letdown in these things. There always seems to be a disappointment. At same time, the irony is there are a lot of very talented young people, such as people who apply to Teach for America -- many don't even make it who are very talented -- who would love to teach for two or three or four years before they move onto something else.

We have to make it possible for more of our talent to be in our classroom, to be encouraged and rewarded in our classroom. And we've got to stop with the notion that I have heard a thousand administrators say to me -- the hardest thing they had to do in their job was to get rid of an incompetent teacher. That's just crazy. It's just crazy. You don't stand for it in airline pilots, nurses, doctors. Shouldn't stand for it with teachers.

BROWN: Gentlemen, we're going to have to end it there. Geoffrey Canada, always good to you have here, and Bill Bennett, as well. Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next, we're going to talk with the director of the new film "Babies," who went to the four corners the earth for a unique look at how we all start out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Who doesn't love "Babies," the movie? It hit theaters this month, a film with a concept as simple as it is universal, to follow four infants in San Francisco, Tokyo, Namibia and Mongolia from their first breaths to their first steps. It captures their shared curiosity and the radically different parenting styles around the globe.

I spoke to the man behind the movie, the filmmaker, Thomas Balmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

You are an award-winning documentarian. You have made films about religion, war, mad cow disease. Babies?

THOMAS BALMES, DIRECTOR, ``BABIES'': Yes, you know, it might sound very different, it's not that much. The idea is always to shift perspective on the world, and just by doing that with these four babies, I did the same as I've always done. The idea is, like, I think it's interesting to go everywhere and to hear people speaking about the way they believe, they parent here, they eat, whatever. And I think we have a lot to learn from this kind of variety of seeing the world.

BROWN: Explain for people sort of the basic concept here.

BALMES: The basic concept was just to observe four babies growing up, from the first breath until they first walk, and by doing so, being there all the time they would experiment something new, like the first steps, the first banana you eat, the first song you hear, and just being there and observe the baby.

And this is both funny, entertaining, and I think you learn a lot. I myself have three kids, and during their time of growing up, I could observe them doing crazy stuff, you know, like -- and I felt like going everywhere in the world and try to see other (INAUDIBLE) people are doing that and other babies were growing up, and comparing that could be something interesting for not only the people in the West but everywhere.

BROWN: You chose, like, four corners of the earth -- an American child in San Francisco, Mongolia, Japan and Namibia. How did you choose?

BALMES: Well, I wanted four countries to be representative of four connection (ph) with modernity and technology.

BROWN: Very different cultures.

BALMES: Very different cultures, very different environment. Absolutely nothing in Namibia. They're not poor, but they don't have anything that we consider as richness (ph), you know, (INAUDIBLE) wealth. They don't have water. They don't have electricity. They don't have the kind of health system we have. But nevertheless, you're going to see them growing up in the most beautiful way.

And then you have a bit more in Mongolia, a little bit more in America, and then you have, like, a futurist town of Tokyo, which I think is the kind of work, the kind of life we're going to all have in a few years. So by doing that, I think it's not so much about these different countries but more about what it means to be human being in the world today. All ideas like -- all the things which make them different is, like, tiny compared to what makes them universal and the same. This is all message (ph). Like, once the basic needs are fulfilled, they all grow well, and the most beautiful way is they get love from the parents.

BROWN: And that's the key...

BALMES: That's the key.

BROWN: ... to have loving, supportive parents, and then it doesn't matter what else going on.

BALMES: Exactly. You have, like, four different couples taking care of their kid in very different ways. But at the end, the result is almost the same, whatever the environment is.

BROWN: What's your favorite? Give us a couple of moments that you just...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: ... took your breath away.

BALMES: Tiny thing. Tiny thing, but to me, like -- it's comedy. First of all, the film is a comedy and it's many, many very funny... BROWN: Babies are comedy!

(LAUGHTER)

BALMES: I think so. But like, a moment where the little Mongolian baby is just putting down water on the ground, and then suddenly, the mother is going to spank him very gently. But you can see on his eyes that he has never been spanked before, and the kind of look he's giving to the mom is amazing.

BROWN: Like, What just happened to me!

BALMES: What's going (ph) on to me? And this is really funny.

BROWN: I know you showed the film to the parents, too, and much of what you had filmed.

BALMES: Yes.

BROWN: What was their reaction?

BALMES: You know, it's very interesting because, like, some people here in America, for example, in the American family (INAUDIBLE) Oh, the poor (ph) must had been difficult to not have that. Like Japanese family, for example, she said, Oh, like, she doesn't -- she doesn't have anything, the poor Namibian baby. She was, like, really worried about the way she was growing up, when the Namibian (INAUDIBLE) Oh, my God, I would never like to live in Tokyo, in such a small spaces. You know, like, you have kindergarten with, like, 20 kids being stuck in a room with three nannies (INAUDIBLE) a baby on their back (INAUDIBLE) one's (ph) in each arms. And it's interesting. Everybody's, like, looking at it, like, Well, I'm very happy with the life I have, you know? No one is, like, feeling (ph) to change. And this is interesting, you know? You shouldn't imagine that they're, like, not happy the way they live, even if they're living so differently than what we do.

BROWN: Well, congratulations on this. It is certainly a joy to watch.

BALMES: Thanks.

BROWN: Many, many thanks to you for being here.

BALMES: Thank you.

BROWN: And good luck with the film.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

A great look at raising a child. But our children watching us, too. A new study says even that young, they may be equipped with moral judgment. We're going to talk about that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: We saw how the film "Babies" aims to give a fresh perspective on child development. Well, now a new study suggests that babies develop ethics and values before they even learn to speak. At Yale University, a group of pioneering research has found that babies gravitate towards what is good, and can actually understand how people think.

I spoke with Po Bronson, who's the author of "Nurture Shock," and I asked him where he comes down on whether children are born with brains that are wired with moral values.

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PO BRONSON, AUTHOR, "NURTURE SHOCK": I think that the moral fiber and brain fiber are linked together. But what we see cross-culturally is that while we all agree on fairness and we all agree when things are wrong, we disagree with how to punish those who break the rules. And I think that's far more cultural.

And what we see from these studies with kids is -- look, Campbell, when they're 6 months old, 9 months old, they'll prefer friendly people. When they're 2 years old, they know the difference between accident, on purpose. When they're 5 years old, they're obsessed with fairness. If you cut a slice of birthday cake a tiny bit off, you know, they get freaked out. But that doesn't mean that they're completely moral beings, just as the story on race that Anderson Cooper is covering tonight is touching on.

BROWN: So you've been studying this issue, morality in children, for the past four years. And I think the big challenge here is to know what to do as a parent because we all want to raise responsible kids. But there's a limit, I guess, on what we should actually teach them and what we should let them figure out on their own, right?

BRONSON: Right, because the world isn't always fair. And the kids have to learn to get comfortable with that over time. You know, a lot of studies show that parents are jumping into the sandbox to prevent kids from ever experiencing anything unfair, rather than letting them to learn to work through how to handle the fact that not everybody else is always fair to them.

BROWN: And I mean, we can delude ourselves as parents, I think, into thinking that our kids are wonderful.

BRONSON: Right.

BROWN: And they can actually be pretty nasty. And that is actually part of their early moral development process.

BRONSON: It's natural. There's a phenomenon called the "happy victimizer" effect. So if you were to show 3-year-olds a picture of one boy pushing another boy off the swing, and you ask, you know, another child, What does it feel like to be pushed off the swing, they'll go, Oh, very sad. But what does it feel like to push someone else off the swing? Like, Oh, makes me happy. I like it. They really like it very much. And they begin by the age of 3 to have established the connection between dominance and pleasure and social reward.

BROWN: Educators -- and tell me if -- I just read this, actually -- tell me if this right -- track aggressive behavior in children, and it means different things depending on when it occurs during the year? Explain that.

BRONSON: Oh, absolutely right. Yes. Well, even in 3-year-old pre- school classrooms, September is a time when the mean girls, the very busy kids, socially busy kids use both aggressive behavior and pro- social behavior to establish their dominance. By October, that'll start dropping off. And then they'll be very sweet in repairing the relationships from November to December, January, February. After spring break, it starts all over again, and they have to sort of reestablish their dominance.

BROWN: And very quickly, if you can, what about age? I know you kind of touched on this. At what point is a child really able to make these moral calls on their own?

BRONSON: You know, on their own -- even the Supreme Court today came down 6-to-3 on teens are not culpable for life in prison. They don't understand those consequences, unless murder is associated with the crime. So it's very much a gradual developmental spectrum. I don't think we should be saying our infants are fully born with morality. That's for sure.

BROWN: This is so interesting. I could talk about this for hours. It's my favorite subject, you know. Po Bronson, his book is called "Nurture Shock". It's a really great read. Po, thank you as always. Appreciate it.

BRONSON: Thank you, Campbell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. And coming up next, though, the "Punchline." Our look at the week's best of late night.

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BROWN: Time now for the "Punchline," our nightly roundup of the best in late night. Cue the laugh track for this week. Take a look.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was on vacation. I thought it would be a good idea to get some sun, so I went to Arizona.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got some son, all right. Son, can I see your papers.

(LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen to this. Iraq's security forces say they have detained an al Qaeda member suspected of planning an attack on the World Cup in South Africa next month. The man has already admitted that terror and destruction was his ultimate go-a-l!

DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: Welcome to New York City, the city that never sleeps. Why? Why does the city never sleep? Two words: suspicious packages!

JAY LENO, HOST: And I'll tell you, these -- these BP guys, they are shame -- you know, they -- they just try to capitalize on everything. You see what they're selling in the store? This is from British Petroleum. Look at this. These are the new black goldfish. You see that?

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LENO: Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.

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BROWN: And that's going do it for us. Thanks for being with us. We'll see you next week. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.